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Elgar Violin Cto
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Herman
Jan 9, 2019, 8:17:50 AM1/9/19
to
Alan Cooper in 2012;
"I hated the Elgar VC on first hearing. I had made the mistake of hearing it first
in the mid-'60s Menuhin/Boult recording on Angel LP, acquired at the time of its
first issue when the critics raved about it. The performance is dead in the
water, but I blamed the piece. Many years later I was in the car and tuned into
the work in the middle of the first movement Without knowing who was performing,
this time I was riveted. It turned out to be the Chung/Solti recording, a lyrical
performance that also has plenty of backbone. Perhaps I had grown more patient
with the music. Probably not, though, because I still detest most of the "big"
Elgar (symphonies & oratorios especially), so I'm more inclined to think that the
VC has longueurs that can be overcome by the right sort of performance. I happen
to be listening to the Bliss VC as I write (Campoli/Bliss 1955)--another overlong
and discursive piece that nevertheless captures and holds my attention with such
strong advocacy."
It was only very recently I listened and looked to / at a Tasmin Little Proms performance of the Elgar Violin Concerto, and marvelled, as I have always done, at the immense orchestral introduction and at the reverence this concerto always seems to get at the BBC Proms.
However, my better musical angels said I should give this concerto some serious listening - after all I love (like everybody does) the Cello Concerto. I listened to the Kennedy ("I never liked the name Nigel") and Rattle recording. That didn't help. It's brutal. It sounds like two guys who have done the work so many times they have come to hate it, even if they don't want to admit it.
Back in 2012 Alan commented that his favorite performances of the Elgar were by non-native soloists (Chung, Ehnes and Zuckerman). I decided to order the 2009 recording by Nikolaj Znaider (who by this time goes by the name Nikolaj Szeps-Znaider), not just because I like the violinist, but I also sick-adore the orchestra he's performing this piece with: the Dresden Philharmonic. Even though I live close to the Amsterdam Concertgebouw I so love its timbral opposite from Dresden.
Cutting to the chase, the only British element in this recording is Colin Davis, who does a wonderful job in molding the orchestra around Znaider's unfailingly lyrical playing. And for once RCA/Sony has managed to capture the typical Dresden sound. It's a great recording. It makes the music into a living organism again, which is the only way to make you listen to close to fifty minutes of grand-scale lyricism.
"I hated the Elgar VC on first hearing. I had made the mistake of hearing it first
in the mid-'60s Menuhin/Boult recording on Angel LP, acquired at the time of its
first issue when the critics raved about it. The performance is dead in the
water, but I blamed the piece. Many years later I was in the car and tuned into
the work in the middle of the first movement Without knowing who was performing,
this time I was riveted. It turned out to be the Chung/Solti recording, a lyrical
performance that also has plenty of backbone. Perhaps I had grown more patient
with the music. Probably not, though, because I still detest most of the "big"
Elgar (symphonies & oratorios especially), so I'm more inclined to think that the
VC has longueurs that can be overcome by the right sort of performance. I happen
to be listening to the Bliss VC as I write (Campoli/Bliss 1955)--another overlong
and discursive piece that nevertheless captures and holds my attention with such
strong advocacy."
It was only very recently I listened and looked to / at a Tasmin Little Proms performance of the Elgar Violin Concerto, and marvelled, as I have always done, at the immense orchestral introduction and at the reverence this concerto always seems to get at the BBC Proms.
However, my better musical angels said I should give this concerto some serious listening - after all I love (like everybody does) the Cello Concerto. I listened to the Kennedy ("I never liked the name Nigel") and Rattle recording. That didn't help. It's brutal. It sounds like two guys who have done the work so many times they have come to hate it, even if they don't want to admit it.
Back in 2012 Alan commented that his favorite performances of the Elgar were by non-native soloists (Chung, Ehnes and Zuckerman). I decided to order the 2009 recording by Nikolaj Znaider (who by this time goes by the name Nikolaj Szeps-Znaider), not just because I like the violinist, but I also sick-adore the orchestra he's performing this piece with: the Dresden Philharmonic. Even though I live close to the Amsterdam Concertgebouw I so love its timbral opposite from Dresden.
Cutting to the chase, the only British element in this recording is Colin Davis, who does a wonderful job in molding the orchestra around Znaider's unfailingly lyrical playing. And for once RCA/Sony has managed to capture the typical Dresden sound. It's a great recording. It makes the music into a living organism again, which is the only way to make you listen to close to fifty minutes of grand-scale lyricism.
Bozo
Jan 9, 2019, 9:02:12 AM1/9/19
to
Thanks for the suggestion as I have only the early Kennedy with Handley.Will also hear the Bliss, which I have not to date, although I have high regard for his piano concerto and piano sonata.
cooper...@gmail.com
Jan 9, 2019, 10:14:03 AM1/9/19
to
Alan
graham
Jan 9, 2019, 10:27:55 AM1/9/19
to
versions) Chung, Ehnes and Haendel. JH is interesting - he doesn't
linger. The Chung is on an LP that I can't play at the moment but I used
to play it often. The Ehnes received rave reviews but I find it totally
bland. My go-to has been the first Kennedy but Haendel's live
performance has recently found its way to the top of the pile.
Herman
Jan 9, 2019, 10:46:51 AM1/9/19
to
On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 4:14:03 PM UTC+1, cooper...@gmail.com wrote:
> I was touched by Szeps-Znaider's explanation of why he reverted to using his full birth name.
Yes
> I was touched by Szeps-Znaider's explanation of why he reverted to using his full birth name.
Herman
Jan 9, 2019, 11:04:32 AM1/9/19
to
A NOTE FROM NIKOLAJ SZEPS-ZNAIDER
"Dear Friends and Colleagues,
I have thought and mulled over how to write this for several months (“I’ve always liked Prince” was an early discounted opening sentence). It is, all attempts at humour aside, a very personal thing taking place in a public arena.
Perhaps naïvely I thought I could quietly add Szeps to my name and people wouldn’t really notice. After all, I said to myself, Nikolaj Znaider and Nikolaj Szeps-Znaider will surely be perceived as the same person when the name appears in a season brochure or in a musical context. It turned out I was half right.
While it is true that no-one as yet has come up to me and said “My goodness, I am so surprised it is you, I thought Nikolaj Szeps-Znaider was a completely different person!” I did greatly underestimate the human need to search for meaning.
In other words, there is no need to explain the “what” but I could do worse by you than to explain the “why”. Indeed, since the season started I have encountered many people, friends and colleagues and most have had the same question: “Why have you changed your name?”, they ask. And it is true…..in this case, the logic certainly isn’t on the surface.
When people change their name, it is usually to something simpler and I am keenly aware that Szeps easily becomes Schweppes or, as in a particularly unfortunate incident on live television, Sheps-Peps.
So why on earth HAVE I gone and changed my name to what in most parts of the world would amount to a tongue-twister?
Well, the fact is that I was born Nikolaj Szeps-Znaider and my name has always been Nikolaj Szeps-Znaider. If you don’t believe me ask any Dane 40-years and older, many have till this day consistently called me Szeps-Znaider. Old habits are hard to break, I guess.
It was in the late nineties that some well-meaning folks, whose opinion I valued, advised me I would be better off with a simpler name when presenting myself on stage. Eager to not get in my own way I took that advice and this is, perhaps where the story could have ended.
On stage I used only Znaider as a second name, life went on and although making dinner reservations certainly became easier, a regularly occurring pang of guilt persisted. You see, it isn’t that both my parents are called Szeps-Znaider, rather each have preserved their name choosing to pass on the head-ache of a double-barrelled name to the next generation.
To them, having been born just post-World War ll, the responsibility of carrying on an extremely rare name (or in the case of Znaider, variant of a name) was felt very keenly, especially in the light of the numerous family members lost in the Holocaust. Indeed it was after watching a documentary about the Second World War earlier this year that I had the impulse to research some of the databases that exist of both survivors and of those who perished in the Holocaust. After having come across more than a dozen Szeps’ who had lost their lives, I was overcome by a strong sense that I simply couldn’t bear to be responsible for another Szeps disappearing from the world and so I made the decision from then on to carry both names on as well as off stage.
In other words, I wish to honour my father and my father’s side of the family wherever I appear, privately as well as publicly.
Now, some among you may at this point understandably ask: “But haven’t you merely passed on a difficult dilemma to the next unwitting and defenceless generation? After all, if everybody were to keep their names, within very few generations chaos would reign and everybody would have an intolerable amount of surnames, the consequences of which we cannot even begin to fathom?”.
To which, I say: “Absolutely”!
This is, to be sure, an act of procrastination that my children will one day have to sort out but since they also stand to inherit my soon to be obsolete cd-collection, I thought one more headache won’t be too bad.
I hope they will forgive me the inconvenience and I hope you will too.
Sincerely,
Nikolaj Szeps-Znaide"
"Dear Friends and Colleagues,
I have thought and mulled over how to write this for several months (“I’ve always liked Prince” was an early discounted opening sentence). It is, all attempts at humour aside, a very personal thing taking place in a public arena.
Perhaps naïvely I thought I could quietly add Szeps to my name and people wouldn’t really notice. After all, I said to myself, Nikolaj Znaider and Nikolaj Szeps-Znaider will surely be perceived as the same person when the name appears in a season brochure or in a musical context. It turned out I was half right.
While it is true that no-one as yet has come up to me and said “My goodness, I am so surprised it is you, I thought Nikolaj Szeps-Znaider was a completely different person!” I did greatly underestimate the human need to search for meaning.
In other words, there is no need to explain the “what” but I could do worse by you than to explain the “why”. Indeed, since the season started I have encountered many people, friends and colleagues and most have had the same question: “Why have you changed your name?”, they ask. And it is true…..in this case, the logic certainly isn’t on the surface.
When people change their name, it is usually to something simpler and I am keenly aware that Szeps easily becomes Schweppes or, as in a particularly unfortunate incident on live television, Sheps-Peps.
So why on earth HAVE I gone and changed my name to what in most parts of the world would amount to a tongue-twister?
Well, the fact is that I was born Nikolaj Szeps-Znaider and my name has always been Nikolaj Szeps-Znaider. If you don’t believe me ask any Dane 40-years and older, many have till this day consistently called me Szeps-Znaider. Old habits are hard to break, I guess.
It was in the late nineties that some well-meaning folks, whose opinion I valued, advised me I would be better off with a simpler name when presenting myself on stage. Eager to not get in my own way I took that advice and this is, perhaps where the story could have ended.
On stage I used only Znaider as a second name, life went on and although making dinner reservations certainly became easier, a regularly occurring pang of guilt persisted. You see, it isn’t that both my parents are called Szeps-Znaider, rather each have preserved their name choosing to pass on the head-ache of a double-barrelled name to the next generation.
To them, having been born just post-World War ll, the responsibility of carrying on an extremely rare name (or in the case of Znaider, variant of a name) was felt very keenly, especially in the light of the numerous family members lost in the Holocaust. Indeed it was after watching a documentary about the Second World War earlier this year that I had the impulse to research some of the databases that exist of both survivors and of those who perished in the Holocaust. After having come across more than a dozen Szeps’ who had lost their lives, I was overcome by a strong sense that I simply couldn’t bear to be responsible for another Szeps disappearing from the world and so I made the decision from then on to carry both names on as well as off stage.
In other words, I wish to honour my father and my father’s side of the family wherever I appear, privately as well as publicly.
Now, some among you may at this point understandably ask: “But haven’t you merely passed on a difficult dilemma to the next unwitting and defenceless generation? After all, if everybody were to keep their names, within very few generations chaos would reign and everybody would have an intolerable amount of surnames, the consequences of which we cannot even begin to fathom?”.
To which, I say: “Absolutely”!
This is, to be sure, an act of procrastination that my children will one day have to sort out but since they also stand to inherit my soon to be obsolete cd-collection, I thought one more headache won’t be too bad.
I hope they will forgive me the inconvenience and I hope you will too.
Sincerely,
Nikolaj Szeps-Znaide"
Frank Berger
Jan 9, 2019, 11:24:09 AM1/9/19
to
neighborhood without a father present. Let's just say he was not in the
picture. The mom worked extremely hard to raise the kids (an
understatement). To honor her memory (she was killed in a car crash),
one of her sons changed his name to her maiden name, McCoy. They were a
Catholic family, but this son married a Jewish girl and converted to
Judiasm. One of the rare Jewish McCoys. Not to be outdone, the other
son wrote a very moving book about his mother, who I remember as a
remarkable person.
nmsz...@gmail.com
Jan 9, 2019, 11:52:40 AM1/9/19
to
On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 11:24:09 AM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> I had friends growing up named White. They were the only family in the
> neighborhood without a father present. Let's just say he was not in the
> picture. The mom worked extremely hard to raise the kids (an
> understatement). To honor her memory (she was killed in a car crash),
> one of her sons changed his name to her maiden name, McCoy. They were a
> Catholic family, but this son married a Jewish girl and converted to
> Judiasm. One of the rare Jewish McCoys.
Convert back and forth according to one's desire, however 'AncestryDNA' isn't going to see a Jewish McCoy, but only the 'real McCoy'.
>
> I had friends growing up named White. They were the only family in the
> neighborhood without a father present. Let's just say he was not in the
> picture. The mom worked extremely hard to raise the kids (an
> understatement). To honor her memory (she was killed in a car crash),
> one of her sons changed his name to her maiden name, McCoy. They were a
> Catholic family, but this son married a Jewish girl and converted to
> Judiasm. One of the rare Jewish McCoys.
Kerrison
Jan 9, 2019, 12:06:53 PM1/9/19
to
The reference to the "immense orchestral introduction" of the Elgar VC reminds me of the 1929 78s with Albert Sammons as soloist and Sir Henry Wood on the rostrum. Wood was having none of that "immensity" and whipped through the opening pages at 100 miles per hour, and so did Sammons when he came in, as can be heard if you click this link ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT6RyxZZupc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT6RyxZZupc
Frank Berger
Jan 9, 2019, 12:15:00 PM1/9/19
to
people ask if I've taken a DNA test I say no, explaining that I have no
interest in my genetic ancestry (not that there's anything wrong with
having such interest), because my Jewish identity has nothing to do with
my genetic history. I've there's a McCoy in my family tree, that's OK
with me.
Herman
Jan 9, 2019, 12:20:36 PM1/9/19
to
On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 6:06:53 PM UTC+1, Kerrison wrote:
> The reference to the "immense orchestral introduction" of the Elgar VC reminds me of the 1929 78s with Albert Sammons as soloist and Sir Henry Wood on the rostrum. Wood was having none of that "immensity" and whipped through the opening pages at 100 miles per hour, and so did Sammons when he came in, as can be heard if you click this link ...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT6RyxZZupc
Yes, that is quite a clip they're taking; borderline comical IMO.
> The reference to the "immense orchestral introduction" of the Elgar VC reminds me of the 1929 78s with Albert Sammons as soloist and Sir Henry Wood on the rostrum. Wood was having none of that "immensity" and whipped through the opening pages at 100 miles per hour, and so did Sammons when he came in, as can be heard if you click this link ...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT6RyxZZupc
When you're watching the performance it's just weird to see that violinist patiently standing there for three minutes waiting for his or her turn.
Sol L. Siegel
Jan 9, 2019, 9:24:18 PM1/9/19
to
Herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I decided to order the 2009 recording by Nikolaj Znaider (who by this
> time goes by the name Nikolaj Szeps-Znaider), not just because I like
> the violinist, but I also sick-adore the orchestra he's performing
> this piece with: the Dresden Philharmonic. Even though I live close to
> the Amsterdam Concertgebouw I so love its timbral opposite from
> Dresden.
>
> Cutting to the chase, the only British element in this recording is
> Colin Davis, who does a wonderful job in molding the orchestra around
> Znaider's unfailingly lyrical playing. And for once RCA/Sony has
> managed to capture the typical Dresden sound. It's a great recording.
> It makes the music into a living organism again, which is the only way
> to make you listen to close to fifty minutes of grand-scale lyricism.
Staatsapelle Dresden, of course. I'll second this as my favorite among
> I decided to order the 2009 recording by Nikolaj Znaider (who by this
> time goes by the name Nikolaj Szeps-Znaider), not just because I like
> the violinist, but I also sick-adore the orchestra he's performing
> this piece with: the Dresden Philharmonic. Even though I live close to
> the Amsterdam Concertgebouw I so love its timbral opposite from
> Dresden.
>
> Cutting to the chase, the only British element in this recording is
> Colin Davis, who does a wonderful job in molding the orchestra around
> Znaider's unfailingly lyrical playing. And for once RCA/Sony has
> managed to capture the typical Dresden sound. It's a great recording.
> It makes the music into a living organism again, which is the only way
> to make you listen to close to fifty minutes of grand-scale lyricism.
modern recordings.
Alas, I must also second Alan's disapproval of Szep-Znaider's Nielsen. I'm
now doubly glad to have Tellefsen/Blomstedt in that one. Too bad no one is
likely to ever issue it in surround.
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Herman
Jan 10, 2019, 1:55:05 AM1/10/19
to
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 3:24:18 AM UTC+1, Sol L. Siegel wrote:
>
> Staatskapelle Dresden, of course. I'll second this as my favorite among
> modern recordings.
>
yes, I stand corrected, as to the proper name. (I guess I got used to saying just "Dresden".)
>
> Staatskapelle Dresden, of course. I'll second this as my favorite among
> modern recordings.
>
yes, I stand corrected, as to the proper name. (I guess I got used to saying just "Dresden".)
nmsz...@gmail.com
Jan 10, 2019, 3:00:02 AM1/10/19
to
One might identify as being Jewish, and thus prone to certain diseases when they are not. One might not identify as being Jewish when they are (as a recent US Secreary of State) and threfore are.
Frank Berger
Jan 10, 2019, 7:37:29 AM1/10/19
to
On 1/10/2019 3:00 AM, nmsz...@gmail.com wrote:
> One might identify as being Jewish, and thus prone to certain diseases when they are not. One might not identify as being Jewish when they are (as a recent US Secreary of State) and threfore are.
>
If this comment is supposed to be a reason for DNA testing, then of
> One might identify as being Jewish, and thus prone to certain diseases when they are not. One might not identify as being Jewish when they are (as a recent US Secreary of State) and threfore are.
>
course. I simply said that DNA testing is irrelevant for the purpose of
establishing my cultural heritage.
Neil
Jan 10, 2019, 7:48:53 AM1/10/19
to
On Wednesday, 9 January 2019 13:17:50 UTC, Herman wrote:
> Alan Cooper in 2012;
>
> "I hated the Elgar VC on first hearing. I had made the mistake of hearing it first
> in the mid-'60s Menuhin/Boult recording on Angel LP, acquired at the time of its
> first issue when the critics raved about it. The performance is dead in the
> water, but I blamed the piece.
The violin part of the concerto is full of markings and instructions. They all make sense. Violinists who ignore them or distort them butcher the work IMHO.
> Alan Cooper in 2012;
>
> "I hated the Elgar VC on first hearing. I had made the mistake of hearing it first
> in the mid-'60s Menuhin/Boult recording on Angel LP, acquired at the time of its
> first issue when the critics raved about it. The performance is dead in the
> water, but I blamed the piece.
Heifetz's recording is a classic that nails the work firmly in the German tradition. He's a lot closer to the spirit of it that the dreadful recordings by Nigel Kennedy. Stripped of soupy sentimentality the performance is riveting and he just monsters all the nasty technical challenges. Sargant accompanies skilfully and is authoritative in the tuttis.
I've not listened to Ehnes yet. Heard a lot of good things about it.
Best performance I ever heard live was with Gil Shaham and the Philharmonia. Tasmin little's proms performance hugely enjoyable and the way she would turn and smile at Andrew Davis when the 'good bits' were approaching was telling!
Neil
Jan 10, 2019, 7:51:47 AM1/10/19
to
On Wednesday, 9 January 2019 17:06:53 UTC, Kerrison wrote:
> The reference to the "immense orchestral introduction" of the Elgar VC reminds me of the 1929 78s with Albert Sammons as soloist and Sir Henry Wood on the rostrum. Wood was having none of that "immensity" and whipped through the opening pages at 100 miles per hour, and so did Sammons when he came in, as can be heard if you click this link ...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT6RyxZZupc
Sammons preferred the Delius concerto over the Elgar. The 1929 recording is too fast and a tad superficial as a result (IMHO). Sammons's recording of the Delius is one of the most heartfelt and loving things ever recorded. I love it!
> The reference to the "immense orchestral introduction" of the Elgar VC reminds me of the 1929 78s with Albert Sammons as soloist and Sir Henry Wood on the rostrum. Wood was having none of that "immensity" and whipped through the opening pages at 100 miles per hour, and so did Sammons when he came in, as can be heard if you click this link ...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT6RyxZZupc
Herman
Jan 10, 2019, 8:42:01 AM1/10/19
to
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 1:48:53 PM UTC+1, Neil wrote:
>
> The violin part of the concerto is full of markings and instructions. They all make sense. Violinists who ignore them or distort them butcher the work IMHO.
>
> Heifetz's recording is a classic that nails the work firmly in the German tradition. He's a lot closer to the spirit of it that the dreadful recordings by Nigel Kennedy. Stripped of soupy sentimentality the performance is riveting and he just monsters all the nasty technical challenges. Sargant accompanies skilfully and is authoritative in the tuttis.
>
Haha, I suspect you meant "masters" rather than "monsters".
>
> The violin part of the concerto is full of markings and instructions. They all make sense. Violinists who ignore them or distort them butcher the work IMHO.
>
> Heifetz's recording is a classic that nails the work firmly in the German tradition. He's a lot closer to the spirit of it that the dreadful recordings by Nigel Kennedy. Stripped of soupy sentimentality the performance is riveting and he just monsters all the nasty technical challenges. Sargant accompanies skilfully and is authoritative in the tuttis.
>
Elgar apparently was a very good violinist before he devoted his energies entirely to composing, which is one of the ways this concerto is so special. He knew the instrument in and out. It may also be the case that he was looking for a way to compete with the Brahms and Reger violin concertos in terms of technical challenges.
Neil
Jan 10, 2019, 8:47:48 AM1/10/19
to
On Thursday, 10 January 2019 13:42:01 UTC, Herman wrote:
and is authoritative in the tuttis.
> >
> Haha, I suspect you meant "masters" rather than "monsters".
>
> Elgar apparently was a very good violinist before he devoted his energies entirely to composing, which is one of the ways this concerto is so special. He knew the instrument in and out. It may also be the case that he was looking for a way to compete with the Brahms and Reger violin concertos in terms of technical challenges.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=monster
and is authoritative in the tuttis.
> >
> Haha, I suspect you meant "masters" rather than "monsters".
>
> Elgar apparently was a very good violinist before he devoted his energies entirely to composing, which is one of the ways this concerto is so special. He knew the instrument in and out. It may also be the case that he was looking for a way to compete with the Brahms and Reger violin concertos in terms of technical challenges.
Elgar collaborated with WH Reed (LSO Leader) who helped him the violin writing.
Good book:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Master-Musicians-W-H-Reed/dp/1443734314
Herman
Jan 10, 2019, 9:19:54 AM1/10/19
to
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 2:47:48 PM UTC+1, Neil wrote:
> On Thursday, 10 January 2019 13:42:01 UTC, Herman wrote:
> and is authoritative in the tuttis.
> > >
> > Haha, I suspect you meant "masters" rather than "monsters".
> >
>
> https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=monster
> On Thursday, 10 January 2019 13:42:01 UTC, Herman wrote:
> and is authoritative in the tuttis.
> > >
> > Haha, I suspect you meant "masters" rather than "monsters".
> >
>
>
yeah, but that "monster" is a noun. Yours is a verb.
nmsz...@gmail.com
Jan 10, 2019, 10:41:15 AM1/10/19
to
Frank Berger
Jan 10, 2019, 1:11:40 PM1/10/19
to
Bozo
Jan 11, 2019, 8:44:02 AM1/11/19
to
>On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:02:12 AM UTC-6, Bozo wrote:
> Thanks for the suggestion as I have only the early Kennedy with Handley.Will also hear the Bliss, which I >have not to date, although I have high regard for his piano concerto and piano sonata.
The Bliss VC here with Campoli / Bliss :
> Thanks for the suggestion as I have only the early Kennedy with Handley.Will also hear the Bliss, which I >have not to date, although I have high regard for his piano concerto and piano sonata.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR4aM_2R7ZQ&list=PLBD36C86DAC57228A
Thanks again.WIll need to listen few more times, but it may well be a purchase, attractive on first hearing.I see Bliss also has a cello concerto I've yet to hear.
FYI, Herman, Nikolai Szeps-Znaider plays the Brahms VC this week with BBC Scottish under Dausgaard:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000214r
Bozo
Jan 11, 2019, 9:08:06 AM1/11/19
to
>On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 7:44:02 AM UTC-6, Bozo wrote:
>I see Bliss also has a cello concerto I've yet to hear.
Bliss (1891-1975), Cello Concerto, Op.120 (1970). Tim Hugh, cello, English Northern Philharmonia directed by David Lloyd Jones. Not sure label :
>I see Bliss also has a cello concerto I've yet to hear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqwaAorWGVo
Attractive on first hearing, may be keeper.
JohnA
Jan 11, 2019, 9:52:52 AM1/11/19
to
Herman
Jan 11, 2019, 11:29:48 AM1/11/19
to
Arthur Bliss's Oboe Quartet, Clarinet Quartet and Viola Sonata (with Piano) are nice, too.
So are Elgar's lateish Violin Sonata (with Piano) and the Piano Quartet. His String Quartet, from those same years, I find rather hard to bear, going on forever.
So are Elgar's lateish Violin Sonata (with Piano) and the Piano Quartet. His String Quartet, from those same years, I find rather hard to bear, going on forever.
Herman
Jan 11, 2019, 11:34:25 AM1/11/19
to
On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 5:29:48 PM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
> Arthur Bliss's Oboe Quartet, Clarinet Quartet and Viola Sonata (with Piano) are nice, too.
>
> So are Elgar's lateish Violin Sonata (with Piano) and the Piano Quartet. His String Quartet, from those same years, I find rather hard to bear, going on forever.
Sorry, Piano Quintet.
> Arthur Bliss's Oboe Quartet, Clarinet Quartet and Viola Sonata (with Piano) are nice, too.
>
> So are Elgar's lateish Violin Sonata (with Piano) and the Piano Quartet. His String Quartet, from those same years, I find rather hard to bear, going on forever.
A quit different matter is reading about this Windflower lady, whom Elgar was thinking of all the time while writing the Violin Cto. Used to be she was just a kind and dear friend who inspired a beuatiful piece of music, but by now a sufficient pile of documents have been released to see that the composer was constantly pining for her, which must have been a real thrill for Mrs Elgar.
Andrew Clarke
Jan 12, 2019, 8:30:26 AM1/12/19
to
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 4:20:36 AM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
> When you're watching the performance it's just weird to see that violinist patiently standing there for three minutes waiting for his or her turn.
I am now listening to the Brahms Violin Concerto played by Yitzak Perlman with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra under Giulini. The soloist comes in at about 2'58".
> When you're watching the performance it's just weird to see that violinist patiently standing there for three minutes waiting for his or her turn.
Was it "just weird watching him standing there for three minutes waiting for his turn"?
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Andrew Clarke
Jan 12, 2019, 8:33:05 AM1/12/19
to
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Andrew Clarke
Jan 12, 2019, 8:43:07 AM1/12/19
to
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 12:17:50 AM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
> It was only very recently I listened and looked to / at a Tasmin Little Proms
> performance of the Elgar Violin Concerto, and marvelled, as I have always done, >at the immense orchestral introduction and at the reverence this concerto always >seems to get at the BBC Proms.
Why are you marvelling at "the reverence this concerto always seems to get at the BBC Proms"? Why shouldn't it?
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
> It was only very recently I listened and looked to / at a Tasmin Little Proms
> performance of the Elgar Violin Concerto, and marvelled, as I have always done, >at the immense orchestral introduction and at the reverence this concerto always >seems to get at the BBC Proms.
Why are you marvelling at "the reverence this concerto always seems to get at the BBC Proms"? Why shouldn't it?
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Andrew Clarke
Jan 12, 2019, 8:45:42 AM1/12/19
to
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 4:06:53 AM UTC+11, Kerrison wrote:
> The reference to the "immense orchestral introduction" of the Elgar VC reminds me of the 1929 78s with Albert Sammons as soloist and Sir Henry Wood on the rostrum. Wood was having none of that "immensity" and whipped through the opening pages at 100 miles per hour, and so did Sammons when he came in, as can be heard if you click this link ...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT6RyxZZupc
The opening pages are, admittedly rushed. But it then settles down into a perfectly normal tempo for this work. What's the beef?
> The reference to the "immense orchestral introduction" of the Elgar VC reminds me of the 1929 78s with Albert Sammons as soloist and Sir Henry Wood on the rostrum. Wood was having none of that "immensity" and whipped through the opening pages at 100 miles per hour, and so did Sammons when he came in, as can be heard if you click this link ...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT6RyxZZupc
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
AB
Jan 12, 2019, 1:13:48 PM1/12/19
to
AB
Herman
Jan 12, 2019, 1:27:53 PM1/12/19
to
Andrew Clarke
Jan 13, 2019, 7:08:09 AM1/13/19
to
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 2:14:03 AM UTC+11, cooper...@gmail.com wrote:
> > the work in the middle of the first movement Without knowing who was performing,
> > this time I was riveted. It turned out to be the Chung/Solti recording, a lyrical
> > performance that also has plenty of backbone. Perhaps I had grown more patient
> > with the music. Probably not, though, because I still detest most of the "big"
> > Elgar (symphonies & oratorios especially), so I'm more inclined to think that the
> > VC has longueurs that can be overcome by the right sort of performance. I happen
> > to be listening to the Bliss VC as I write (Campoli/Bliss 1955)--another overlong
> > and discursive piece that nevertheless captures and holds my attention with such
> > strong advocacy."
> >
> > Back in 2012 Alan commented that his favorite performances of the Elgar were by non-native soloists (Chung, Ehnes and Zuckerman). I decided to order the 2009 recording by Nikolaj Znaider (who by this time goes by the name Nikolaj Szeps-Znaider), not just because I like the violinist, but I also sick-adore the orchestra he's performing this piece with: the Dresden Philharmonic. Even though I live close to the Amsterdam Concertgebouw I so love its timbral opposite from Dresden.
>
> Alan
So are you going to follow S-Z's example and revert to your own original family name, Alan? Avram Kupferberg sounds quite distinguished.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
> On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:17:50 AM UTC-5, Herman wrote:
> > Alan Cooper in 2012;
> >
> > "I hated the Elgar VC on first hearing. I had made the mistake of hearing it first
> > in the mid-'60s Menuhin/Boult recording on Angel LP, acquired at the time of its
> > first issue when the critics raved about it. The performance is dead in the
> > water, but I blamed the piece. Many years later I was in the car and tuned into
> > Alan Cooper in 2012;
> >
> > "I hated the Elgar VC on first hearing. I had made the mistake of hearing it first
> > in the mid-'60s Menuhin/Boult recording on Angel LP, acquired at the time of its
> > first issue when the critics raved about it. The performance is dead in the
> > the work in the middle of the first movement Without knowing who was performing,
> > this time I was riveted. It turned out to be the Chung/Solti recording, a lyrical
> > performance that also has plenty of backbone. Perhaps I had grown more patient
> > with the music. Probably not, though, because I still detest most of the "big"
> > Elgar (symphonies & oratorios especially), so I'm more inclined to think that the
> > VC has longueurs that can be overcome by the right sort of performance. I happen
> > to be listening to the Bliss VC as I write (Campoli/Bliss 1955)--another overlong
> > and discursive piece that nevertheless captures and holds my attention with such
> > strong advocacy."
> >
> > It was only very recently I listened and looked to / at a Tasmin Little Proms performance of the Elgar Violin Concerto, and marvelled, as I have always done, at the immense orchestral introduction and at the reverence this concerto always seems to get at the BBC Proms.
> >
> > However, my better musical angels said I should give this concerto some serious listening - after all I love (like everybody does) the Cello Concerto. I listened to the Kennedy ("I never liked the name Nigel") and Rattle recording. That didn't help. It's brutal. It sounds like two guys who have done the work so many times they have come to hate it, even if they don't want to admit it.
> > It was only very recently I listened and looked to / at a Tasmin Little Proms performance of the Elgar Violin Concerto, and marvelled, as I have always done, at the immense orchestral introduction and at the reverence this concerto always seems to get at the BBC Proms.
> >
> >
> > Back in 2012 Alan commented that his favorite performances of the Elgar were by non-native soloists (Chung, Ehnes and Zuckerman). I decided to order the 2009 recording by Nikolaj Znaider (who by this time goes by the name Nikolaj Szeps-Znaider), not just because I like the violinist, but I also sick-adore the orchestra he's performing this piece with: the Dresden Philharmonic. Even though I live close to the Amsterdam Concertgebouw I so love its timbral opposite from Dresden.
> >
> > Cutting to the chase, the only British element in this recording is Colin Davis, who does a wonderful job in molding the orchestra around Znaider's unfailingly lyrical playing. And for once RCA/Sony has managed to capture the typical Dresden sound. It's a great recording. It makes the music into a living organism again, which is the only way to make you listen to close to fifty minutes of grand-scale lyricism.
>
> Thanks both for the comments and for the recommendation. I was touched by Szeps-Znaider's explanation of why he reverted to using his full birth name. To be honest, despite glowing reviews I wasn't keen on his Nielsen VC (an understatement: I didn't like it at all) so I haven't paid much attention to him. Time to give him another go, I suppose.
> > Cutting to the chase, the only British element in this recording is Colin Davis, who does a wonderful job in molding the orchestra around Znaider's unfailingly lyrical playing. And for once RCA/Sony has managed to capture the typical Dresden sound. It's a great recording. It makes the music into a living organism again, which is the only way to make you listen to close to fifty minutes of grand-scale lyricism.
>
>
> Alan
So are you going to follow S-Z's example and revert to your own original family name, Alan? Avram Kupferberg sounds quite distinguished.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Andrew Clarke
Jan 13, 2019, 7:05:22 PM1/13/19
to
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 12:17:50 AM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
> Back in 2012 Alan commented that his favorite performances of the Elgar were by non-native soloists (Chung, Ehnes and Zuckerman). I decided to order the 2009 recording by Nikolaj Znaider (who by this time goes by the name Nikolaj Szeps-Znaider), not just because I like the violinist, but I also sick-adore the orchestra he's performing this piece with: the Dresden Philharmonic. Even though I live close to the Amsterdam Concertgebouw I so love its timbral opposite from Dresden.
>
Well, Menuhin was "non-native soloist" wasn't he?
>
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Andrew Clarke
Jan 13, 2019, 10:10:56 PM1/13/19
to
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Andrew Clarke
Jan 13, 2019, 10:52:09 PM1/13/19
to
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 12:17:50 AM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
>"I listened to the Kennedy ("I never liked the name Nigel") and Rattle recording. That didn't help. It's brutal. It sounds like two guys who have done the work so many times they have come to hate it, even if they don't want to admit it."
>
The idea of Nigel Kennedy and/or Sir Simon Rattle wandering round Europe and America playing the Elgar Violin Concerto until they got heartily sick of it would make a cat laugh.
>
The online index to the Berlin Phil's Digital Concert Hall lists 14 performances of Elgar since 2002 - of course this doesn't include every concert since 2002. But of this sample, Sir Simon conducted four Elgar works, none of which was the VC. They were the Introduction & Allegro, the Cello Concerto, the Enigma Variations, and Pomp and Circumstance no 1. Meanwhile, Daniel Baremboim also conducted four Elgar works: Falstaff, The Dream of Gerontius and the Cello Concerto (twice). The Violin Concerto has only two performances: one by Pinchas Zukerman with Zubin Mehta and the other with Gil Shaham and David Zinman.
You'd think that the Proms would be the natural home of the Elgar VC, but no: since 1980 it has been performed precisely 8 times.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/events/works/ca2aa7a7-be1b-4431-8632-3b9c7ff6e9b0>
Not doing very well in the accuracy stakes are we?
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
"This is going to cause more confusion than a mouse at a burlesque show" - Foghorn Leghorn.
Herman
Jan 14, 2019, 2:20:46 AM1/14/19
to
On Monday, January 14, 2019 at 4:52:09 AM UTC+1, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>
> Not doing very well in the accuracy stakes are we?
>
you seem a little critical of my OP, having posted various rebuttals, that's for sure.
>
> Not doing very well in the accuracy stakes are we?
>
I'm still waiting for your definitive dismissal of my use of the word "and".
As to getting overfamiliar with the Elgar, I was rather more thinking of Rattle in his Birmingham days. But I hasten to add, I could be wrong.
Andrew Clarke
Jan 15, 2019, 11:29:59 PM1/15/19
to
Mind you, Elgar is doing a lot better at the Proms than Edmund Rubbra, IMHO a very fine composer, whose music hasn't been played at a Prom concert since 1951.
The larger works can remind me of Rossini's comments about wonderful moments and tedious half hours, but I've come to like them a very great deal. I came to know them via the Boult recordings, made when British record companies realised that the last conductor who knew Elgar personally was growing old, and they'd better get him into the recording studios pretty damn quick.
It's been suggested elsewhere that the Brits will only listen to music by Brit composers if it's played by Brit musicians. The reply to this was given many years ago by another Brit: until very recently it was hard to find recordings of British music performed by anyone else! As for me, I'm delighted that "non-native" musicians have taken him up, witness the fine performance of the Second Symphony given by the Berlin Phil under their new conductor Kiril Petrenko, which yes, you can see and hear on the Digital Concert Hall.
Elgar in particular doesn't travel well. He is, like other Brit composers, open to the charge that he's too repetitious and like quite a deal of other British music doesn't really have enough thematic material to justify the length of the composition. That's why shorter works - like the glorious Introduction and Allegro for Strings, or In the South, get more of an airing these days.
Then there's the charge of Victorian sentimentality, raised by Dave Hurwitz re the Serenade for Strings, which is arguable, although you might as well say that Dvorak often descends to Habsburgian sentimentality. It's bound up IMHO with
"Rarely, rarely comest thou, Spirit of Delight"
the epigraph of the Second Symphony. When Elgar captures this, it's exquisite. When he doesn't it can sound mawkish or just plain childish. The opening theme of the Second Symphony can sound like that, as can the opening of the slow movement of the VC, or some of the more girlish Enigma Variations.
Then there's that 'nobilmente', by which he did not mean pompous. The marking at the start of the First Symphony is "Andante. Nobilmente e semplice" and not "Nobilmente e pomposo".
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Neil
Jan 16, 2019, 6:48:15 AM1/16/19
to
On Wednesday, 16 January 2019 04:29:59 UTC, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> Herman, I think that like a few other people in this group, you misunderstand > the appreciation of English composers by the British musical public. They are, > like other nations, more sensitive to their own composers, although I suspect > that most people over there would prefer to see/hear the Bruch or the Brahms > or the Beethoven or the Mendelssohn or even the Britten than the Elgar.
Britten over Elgar? I think the Elgar is like Mahler 7, to be savoured and not over played. IMHO It's a fabulous work but not easy to bring off because it can be illusive.
> Herman, I think that like a few other people in this group, you misunderstand > the appreciation of English composers by the British musical public. They are, > like other nations, more sensitive to their own composers, although I suspect > that most people over there would prefer to see/hear the Bruch or the Brahms > or the Beethoven or the Mendelssohn or even the Britten than the Elgar.
chriskh...@gmail.com
Jan 16, 2019, 1:35:01 PM1/16/19
to
Il giorno mercoledì 16 gennaio 2019 05:29:59 UTC+1, Andrew Clarke ha scritto:
> Mind you, Elgar is doing a lot better at the Proms than Edmund Rubbra, IMHO a very fine composer, whose music hasn't been played at a Prom concert since 1951.
>
Rubbra's Symphony 11 was premiered at the Proms on 20 August 1980. Unfortunately the performance, under Nicholas Cleobury, was luke-warm and maybe it's not one of the strongest works anyway
> Mind you, Elgar is doing a lot better at the Proms than Edmund Rubbra, IMHO a very fine composer, whose music hasn't been played at a Prom concert since 1951.
>
Andrew Clarke
Jan 16, 2019, 8:42:32 PM1/16/19
to
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/events/performers/7bab1f57-2d17-4817-a5c2-085aaf96c4bf/performances>
If I go here it's a different story:
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/events/composers/7bab1f57-2d17-4817-a5c2-085aaf96c4bf/works>
Both links are retrieved by Google and both are headed "Performances of Edmund Rubbra at BBC Proms". But the first page lists works he conducted himself while second lists all works of Rubbra performed at the Proms whether conducted by him or not. The only indication of the difference is that one has "performers" in the URL while the other has "works".
The most recent Rubbra performance in the Proms was his "Ode to the Queen" in 2013.
Herman
Jan 16, 2019, 10:18:05 PM1/16/19
to
>
> Herman, I think that like a few other people in this group, you misunderstand the appreciation of English composers by the British musical public. They are, like other nations, more sensitive to their own composers, although I suspect that most people over there would prefer to see/hear the Bruch or the Brahms or the Beethoven or the Mendelssohn or even the Britten than the Elgar. Yes, the Prom audience were ecstatic about Tasmin Little's performance, but that performance was on fire, and remember it took place in 2011, since when the concerto has not been played at the Proms at all. And we have to remember that until the Elgar reappraisal of the 1960s, Elgar was regarded as old hat: you might get "Land of Hope and Glory" and "Chanson de Matin" but that was about it. In fact he was regarded as old hat during his old age, and he knew it.
>
> Elgar in particular doesn't travel well. He is, like other Brit composers, open to the charge that he's too repetitious and like quite a deal of other British music doesn't really have enough thematic material to justify the length of the composition. That's why shorter works - like the glorious Introduction and Allegro for Strings, or In the South, get more of an airing these days.
>
Bozo
Jan 16, 2019, 10:31:26 PM1/16/19
to
>On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 9:18:05 PM UTC-6, Herman wrote:
>I kind of like Elgars later chamber music, the Violin Sonata and the Quintet...
Agreed as to the Quintet !
>I kind of like Elgars later chamber music, the Violin Sonata and the Quintet...
Agreed as to the Quintet !
Oscar
Jan 16, 2019, 10:38:16 PM1/16/19
to
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 7:18:05 PM, herman wrote:
>
> Elgar is so closely associated with the British Empire, perhaps, that it impedes the music from traveling.
Well, it traveled to Ontario.
>
> Elgar is so closely associated with the British Empire, perhaps, that it impedes the music from traveling.
On Thursday, May 22, 2014 at 5:22:23 AM, Tom Deacon wrote:
>
> http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/may/21/elgar-second-symphony-barenboim-staatskapelle-berlin-review
>
> Ordered, of course. Simply couldn't resist. The Elgar 2 is arguably the greatest symphony written in the
> 20th Century.
> --
> TD
It _is_ a very good recording, too.
Herman
Jan 16, 2019, 10:50:14 PM1/16/19
to
On Thursday, January 17, 2019 at 4:38:16 AM UTC+1, Oscar wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 7:18:05 PM, herman wrote:
> >
> > Elgar is so closely associated with the British Empire, perhaps, that it impedes the music from traveling.
>
> Well, it traveled to Ontario.
>
and since then nothing was heard of TD
> On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 7:18:05 PM, herman wrote:
> >
> > Elgar is so closely associated with the British Empire, perhaps, that it impedes the music from traveling.
>
> Well, it traveled to Ontario.
>
O
Jan 17, 2019, 7:14:15 AM1/17/19
to
In article <68a64258-033e-40cb...@googlegroups.com>,
-Owen
Oscar <oscaredwar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 7:18:05 PM, herman wrote:
> >
> > Elgar is so closely associated with the British Empire, perhaps, that it
> > impedes the music from traveling.
>
> Well, it traveled to Ontario.
>
The sun never sets on Elgar's music!
> On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 7:18:05 PM, herman wrote:
> >
> > Elgar is so closely associated with the British Empire, perhaps, that it
> > impedes the music from traveling.
>
> Well, it traveled to Ontario.
>
-Owen
Andrew Clarke
Jan 17, 2019, 10:35:35 PM1/17/19
to
The association of Elgar with the Empire is no doubt due to the persona that he created for himself, which made him look like a retired colonel. Yes, he was a born conservative, but behind the mask was a deeply sensitive man very aware of his uncertain position in late Victorian/Edwardian society, when being a musician was seen as not quite proper unless you were a foreigner like Mendelssohn or Dvorak.
In any case, there were much worse places to be than the British Empire. Many of them were created when the British moved out, e.g. Zimbabwe.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Bob Harper
Jan 19, 2019, 2:56:15 PM1/19/19
to
On 1/17/19 7:35 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Thursday, January 17, 2019 at 11:14:15 PM UTC+11, O wrote:
>> In article <68a64258-033e-40cb...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Oscar <oscaredwar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 7:18:05 PM, herman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Elgar is so closely associated with the British Empire, perhaps, that it
>>>> impedes the music from traveling.
>>>
>>> Well, it traveled to Ontario.
>>>
>>
>> The sun never sets on Elgar's music!
>>
>> -Owen
>
> Nor on the Concertgebouw. During my time as an academic librarian I handled a lot of gedenkboeken and annual reports from Dutch colonial companies, not to mention well preserved albums called "Onze Indie" or such-like. The Dutch had an empire. So what?
>
> The association of Elgar with the Empire is no doubt due to the persona that he created for himself, which made him look like a retired colonel. Yes, he was a born conservative, but behind the mask was a deeply sensitive man very aware of his uncertain position in late Victorian/Edwardian society, when being a musician was seen as not quite proper unless you were a foreigner like Mendelssohn or Dvorak
>
> On Thursday, January 17, 2019 at 11:14:15 PM UTC+11, O wrote:
>> In article <68a64258-033e-40cb...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Oscar <oscaredwar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 7:18:05 PM, herman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Elgar is so closely associated with the British Empire, perhaps, that it
>>>> impedes the music from traveling.
>>>
>>> Well, it traveled to Ontario.
>>>
>>
>> The sun never sets on Elgar's music!
>>
>> -Owen
>
> Nor on the Concertgebouw. During my time as an academic librarian I handled a lot of gedenkboeken and annual reports from Dutch colonial companies, not to mention well preserved albums called "Onze Indie" or such-like. The Dutch had an empire. So what?
>
> The association of Elgar with the Empire is no doubt due to the persona that he created for himself, which made him look like a retired colonel. Yes, he was a born conservative, but behind the mask was a deeply sensitive man very aware of his uncertain position in late Victorian/Edwardian society, when being a musician was seen as not quite proper unless you were a foreigner like Mendelssohn or Dvorak
>
> In any case, there were much worse places to be than the British Empire. Many of them were created when the British moved out, e.g. Zimbabwe.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra
>
And not just a musician, but also a Catholic, which many people in the
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra
>
GB of the day would have been regarded with suspicion.
Bob Harper
Herman
Jan 20, 2019, 9:57:18 AM1/20/19
to
The narrative of the man from middle-middle class beginnings astonishlingly making it to big composer is a British music writing cliche. The British used to have a really hard time picturing somebody making a mark in the arts without being from a genteel background - even though there are virtually no composers, writers etc from the upper class, unless you count Shakespeare if you believe he's the Earl of Oxford.
Elgar clearly had no problem cementing friendships with upper class men and women who could help him. His having a mistress in these circles without anyone calling him on this may be seen as another indication his position was pretty secure.
Elgar's Violin Concerto is secure in its position in the VC canon, if you look at all the recordings, and compare it to other violin concertos from the same era. Reger's equally long VC is hardly ever performed or recorded. Neither is Joseph Joachim's 'Hungarian', nor Glazunov's.
I may be missing something, but I think the first violin concertos to remain in the rep after Elgar's are the ones from the Thirties: Bartok, Schoenberg and Berg.
Elgar clearly had no problem cementing friendships with upper class men and women who could help him. His having a mistress in these circles without anyone calling him on this may be seen as another indication his position was pretty secure.
Elgar's Violin Concerto is secure in its position in the VC canon, if you look at all the recordings, and compare it to other violin concertos from the same era. Reger's equally long VC is hardly ever performed or recorded. Neither is Joseph Joachim's 'Hungarian', nor Glazunov's.
I may be missing something, but I think the first violin concertos to remain in the rep after Elgar's are the ones from the Thirties: Bartok, Schoenberg and Berg.
smo...@hotmail.com
Jan 20, 2019, 11:08:13 AM1/20/19
to
You don’t think the Nielsen concerto (1911) has remained “in the repertoire”? I should think it is as “popular” as Schoenberg’s. And I would also think Stravinsky’s (1931) and Prokofiev’s concertos (1917 & 1935) are in the repertoire (and earlier than Bartók’s 2nd (1938) and Schoenberg (1936) - Berg’s and Prokofiev’s 2nd were finished around the same time in the summer of 1935).
Soeren
Soeren
AB
Jan 20, 2019, 11:35:35 AM1/20/19
to
Heifetz recorded it twice. be careful what you say Herman :-)
AB
cooper...@gmail.com
Jan 20, 2019, 2:40:48 PM1/20/19
to
On Sunday, January 20, 2019 at 11:08:13 AM UTC-5, smo...@hotmail.com wrote:
> You don’t think the Nielsen concerto (1911) has remained “in the repertoire”? I should think it is as “popular” as Schoenberg’s. And I would also think Stravinsky’s (1931) and Prokofiev’s concertos (1917 & 1935) are in the repertoire (and earlier than Bartók’s 2nd (1938) and Schoenberg (1936) - Berg’s and Prokofiev’s 2nd were finished around the same time in the summer of 1935).
>
> Soeren
The Nielsen VC hasn't "remained" in the repertoire. Rather, it's finally gaining entry thanks to its being taken up by a number of excellent young performers, not big names (yet). Very gratifying! Advocacy from the likes of Hahn and Faust might help the Schoenberg, but I can't see it getting beyond the fringe of the repertoire. Small sample, I know, but the NYPO hasn't programmed the Schoenberg in more than 50 years (Zeitlin/Bernstein, and that was only the second sighting after Krasner/Mitropoulos). The Nielsen (Znaider/Gilbert) was performed in 2014 and also recorded for commercial release. I guess the European orchestras are more adventurous?
> You don’t think the Nielsen concerto (1911) has remained “in the repertoire”? I should think it is as “popular” as Schoenberg’s. And I would also think Stravinsky’s (1931) and Prokofiev’s concertos (1917 & 1935) are in the repertoire (and earlier than Bartók’s 2nd (1938) and Schoenberg (1936) - Berg’s and Prokofiev’s 2nd were finished around the same time in the summer of 1935).
>
> Soeren
AC
Herman
Jan 21, 2019, 2:46:41 AM1/21/19
to
On Sunday, January 20, 2019 at 5:08:13 PM UTC+1, smo...@hotmail.com wrote:
> You don’t think the Nielsen concerto (1911) has remained “in the repertoire”? I should think it is as “popular” as Schoenberg’s. And I would also think Stravinsky’s (1931) and Prokofiev’s concertos (1917 & 1935) are in the repertoire (and earlier than Bartók’s 2nd (1938) and Schoenberg (1936) - Berg’s and Prokofiev’s 2nd were finished around the same time in the summer of 1935).
>
> Soeren
Yes, the Prokofiev concertos are clearly survivors of this era. However, they do belong to the next neo-classical generation, and my point was that the Elgar is the only one of the long late-Romantic VCs that is still being performed and recorded.
> You don’t think the Nielsen concerto (1911) has remained “in the repertoire”? I should think it is as “popular” as Schoenberg’s. And I would also think Stravinsky’s (1931) and Prokofiev’s concertos (1917 & 1935) are in the repertoire (and earlier than Bartók’s 2nd (1938) and Schoenberg (1936) - Berg’s and Prokofiev’s 2nd were finished around the same time in the summer of 1935).
>
> Soeren
Juan I. Cahis
Jan 21, 2019, 7:40:05 AM1/21/19
to
--
Enviado desde mi iPad usando NewsTap, Juan I. Cahis, Santiago de Chile.
Herman
Jan 21, 2019, 7:48:54 AM1/21/19
to
On Monday, January 21, 2019 at 1:40:05 PM UTC+1, Juan I. Cahis wrote:
>
> Sibelius?
>
you couldn't be more right
>
> Sibelius?
>
you couldn't be more right
graham
Jan 21, 2019, 9:34:11 AM1/21/19
to
On 2019-01-20 7:57 a.m., Herman wrote:
> The narrative of the man from middle-middle class beginnings astonishlingly making it to big composer is a British music writing cliche. The British used to have a really hard time picturing somebody making a mark in the arts without being from a genteel background - even though there are virtually no composers, writers etc from the upper class, unless you count Shakespeare if you believe he's the Earl of Oxford.
>
The only achievement of that Earl of Oxford was to fart in front of
> The narrative of the man from middle-middle class beginnings astonishlingly making it to big composer is a British music writing cliche. The British used to have a really hard time picturing somebody making a mark in the arts without being from a genteel background - even though there are virtually no composers, writers etc from the upper class, unless you count Shakespeare if you believe he's the Earl of Oxford.
>
Queen Elizabeth, and she never let him forget it.
smo...@hotmail.com
Jan 21, 2019, 2:32:50 PM1/21/19
to
Re the Sibelius concerto: It was composed before the Elgar concerto.
Soeren
Soeren
Bob Harper
Jan 21, 2019, 6:01:52 PM1/21/19
to
On 1/20/19 6:57 AM, Herman wrote:
> The narrative of the man from middle-middle class beginnings astonishlingly making it to big composer is a British music writing cliche. The British used to have a really hard time picturing somebody making a mark in the arts without being from a genteel background - even though there are virtually no composers, writers etc from the upper class, unless you count Shakespeare if you believe he's the Earl of Oxford.
I know people who believe that, but they are, on that subject, delusional.
> The narrative of the man from middle-middle class beginnings astonishlingly making it to big composer is a British music writing cliche. The British used to have a really hard time picturing somebody making a mark in the arts without being from a genteel background - even though there are virtually no composers, writers etc from the upper class, unless you count Shakespeare if you believe he's the Earl of Oxford.
>
> Elgar clearly had no problem cementing friendships with upper class men and women who could help him. His having a mistress in these circles without anyone calling him on this may be seen as another indication his position was pretty secure.
?
> Elgar clearly had no problem cementing friendships with upper class men and women who could help him. His having a mistress in these circles without anyone calling him on this may be seen as another indication his position was pretty secure.
>
> Elgar's Violin Concerto is secure in its position in the VC canon, if you look at all the recordings, and compare it to other violin concertos from the same era. Reger's equally long VC is hardly ever performed or recorded. Neither is Joseph Joachim's 'Hungarian', nor Glazunov's.
>
> I may be missing something, but I think the first violin concertos to remain in the rep after Elgar's are the ones from the Thirties: Bartok, Schoenberg and Berg.
>
Bob Harper
> Elgar's Violin Concerto is secure in its position in the VC canon, if you look at all the recordings, and compare it to other violin concertos from the same era. Reger's equally long VC is hardly ever performed or recorded. Neither is Joseph Joachim's 'Hungarian', nor Glazunov's.
>
> I may be missing something, but I think the first violin concertos to remain in the rep after Elgar's are the ones from the Thirties: Bartok, Schoenberg and Berg.
>
Bob Harper
Jan 21, 2019, 6:03:19 PM1/21/19
to
Bob Harper
Ricardo Jimenez
Jan 21, 2019, 7:27:09 PM1/21/19
to
On Sun, 20 Jan 2019 06:57:15 -0800 (PST), Herman <her...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
The Glazunov concerto was first performed in 1905, 5 years before the
Elgar. It gets 10 pages of coverage on Amazon US; 7 pages on Youtube.
Even taking duplications into account, it is certainly part of the
repertory of many if not most professional violinists.
wrote:
Elgar. It gets 10 pages of coverage on Amazon US; 7 pages on Youtube.
Even taking duplications into account, it is certainly part of the
repertory of many if not most professional violinists.
Herman
Jan 22, 2019, 3:50:31 AM1/22/19
to
On Tuesday, January 22, 2019 at 1:27:09 AM UTC+1, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
>
> The Glazunov concerto was first performed in 1905, 5 years before the
> Elgar. It gets 10 pages of coverage on Amazon US; 7 pages on Youtube.
> Even taking duplications into account, it is certainly part of the
> repertory of many if not most professional violinists.
So we have Sibelius, Elgar and Glazunov as Violin Concertos from the first decade (of the 20th C) that are still in repertoire, though frankly I have never seen the Glazunov on a concert program.
>
> The Glazunov concerto was first performed in 1905, 5 years before the
> Elgar. It gets 10 pages of coverage on Amazon US; 7 pages on Youtube.
> Even taking duplications into account, it is certainly part of the
> repertory of many if not most professional violinists.
Herman
Jan 25, 2019, 11:34:35 AM1/25/19
to
This topic started with my comments on Tasmin Little's Prom performance from 2014 [?]. Today it was announced that Little is putting a close to her concert career, at age 55.
gggg gggg
Apr 14, 2021, 5:53:51 PM4/14/21
to
On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 5:17:50 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> Alan Cooper in 2012;
>
> "I hated the Elgar VC on first hearing. I had made the mistake of hearing it first
> in the mid-'60s Menuhin/Boult recording on Angel LP, acquired at the time of its
> first issue when the critics raved about it. The performance is dead in the
> water, but I blamed the piece. Many years later I was in the car and tuned into
> the work in the middle of the first movement Without knowing who was performing,
> this time I was riveted. It turned out to be the Chung/Solti recording, a lyrical
> performance that also has plenty of backbone. Perhaps I had grown more patient
> with the music. Probably not, though, because I still detest most of the "big"
> Elgar (symphonies & oratorios especially), so I'm more inclined to think that the
> VC has longueurs that can be overcome by the right sort of performance. I happen
> to be listening to the Bliss VC as I write (Campoli/Bliss 1955)--another overlong
> and discursive piece that nevertheless captures and holds my attention with such
> strong advocacy."
>
> It was only very recently I listened and looked to / at a Tasmin Little Proms performance of the Elgar Violin Concerto, and marvelled, as I have always done, at the immense orchestral introduction and at the reverence this concerto always seems to get at the BBC Proms.
>
> However, my better musical angels said I should give this concerto some serious listening - after all I love (like everybody does) the Cello Concerto. I listened to the Kennedy ("I never liked the name Nigel") and Rattle recording. That didn't help. It's brutal. It sounds like two guys who have done the work so many times they have come to hate it, even if they don't want to admit it.
>
> Back in 2012 Alan commented that his favorite performances of the Elgar were by non-native soloists (Chung, Ehnes and Zuckerman). I decided to order the 2009 recording by Nikolaj Znaider (who by this time goes by the name Nikolaj Szeps-Znaider), not just because I like the violinist, but I also sick-adore the orchestra he's performing this piece with: the Dresden Philharmonic. Even though I live close to the Amsterdam Concertgebouw I so love its timbral opposite from Dresden.
>
> Cutting to the chase, the only British element in this recording is Colin Davis, who does a wonderful job in molding the orchestra around Znaider's unfailingly lyrical playing. And for once RCA/Sony has managed to capture the typical Dresden sound. It's a great recording. It makes the music into a living organism again, which is the only way to make you listen to close to fifty minutes of grand-scale lyricism.
https://www.talkclassical.com/47548-elgars-violin-concerto.html
> Alan Cooper in 2012;
>
> "I hated the Elgar VC on first hearing. I had made the mistake of hearing it first
> in the mid-'60s Menuhin/Boult recording on Angel LP, acquired at the time of its
> first issue when the critics raved about it. The performance is dead in the
> water, but I blamed the piece. Many years later I was in the car and tuned into
> the work in the middle of the first movement Without knowing who was performing,
> this time I was riveted. It turned out to be the Chung/Solti recording, a lyrical
> performance that also has plenty of backbone. Perhaps I had grown more patient
> with the music. Probably not, though, because I still detest most of the "big"
> Elgar (symphonies & oratorios especially), so I'm more inclined to think that the
> VC has longueurs that can be overcome by the right sort of performance. I happen
> to be listening to the Bliss VC as I write (Campoli/Bliss 1955)--another overlong
> and discursive piece that nevertheless captures and holds my attention with such
> strong advocacy."
>
> It was only very recently I listened and looked to / at a Tasmin Little Proms performance of the Elgar Violin Concerto, and marvelled, as I have always done, at the immense orchestral introduction and at the reverence this concerto always seems to get at the BBC Proms.
>
> However, my better musical angels said I should give this concerto some serious listening - after all I love (like everybody does) the Cello Concerto. I listened to the Kennedy ("I never liked the name Nigel") and Rattle recording. That didn't help. It's brutal. It sounds like two guys who have done the work so many times they have come to hate it, even if they don't want to admit it.
>
> Back in 2012 Alan commented that his favorite performances of the Elgar were by non-native soloists (Chung, Ehnes and Zuckerman). I decided to order the 2009 recording by Nikolaj Znaider (who by this time goes by the name Nikolaj Szeps-Znaider), not just because I like the violinist, but I also sick-adore the orchestra he's performing this piece with: the Dresden Philharmonic. Even though I live close to the Amsterdam Concertgebouw I so love its timbral opposite from Dresden.
>
> Cutting to the chase, the only British element in this recording is Colin Davis, who does a wonderful job in molding the orchestra around Znaider's unfailingly lyrical playing. And for once RCA/Sony has managed to capture the typical Dresden sound. It's a great recording. It makes the music into a living organism again, which is the only way to make you listen to close to fifty minutes of grand-scale lyricism.
https://www.talkclassical.com/47548-elgars-violin-concerto.html
Andrew Clarke
Apr 17, 2021, 11:06:36 AM4/17/21
to
On Monday, January 21, 2019 at 1:57:18 AM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
> The narrative of the man from middle-middle class beginnings astonishlingly making it to big composer is a British music writing cliche. The British used to have a really hard time picturing somebody making a mark in the arts without being from a genteel background - even though there are virtually no composers, writers etc from the upper class, unless you count Shakespeare if you believe he's the Earl of Oxford.
The British had a very easy time picturing someone making a mark in the arts without being from the gentry or the nobility because as you say all their artists came from the middle class, and what is more, nobody cared. BTW, "Genteel" and "of gentle birth" do not mean the same thing.
> The narrative of the man from middle-middle class beginnings astonishlingly making it to big composer is a British music writing cliche. The British used to have a really hard time picturing somebody making a mark in the arts without being from a genteel background - even though there are virtually no composers, writers etc from the upper class, unless you count Shakespeare if you believe he's the Earl of Oxford.
>
> Elgar clearly had no problem cementing friendships with upper class men and women who could help him. His having a mistress in these circles without anyone calling him on this may be seen as another indication his position was pretty secure.
<https://theartsdesk.com/classical-music/elgars-enigma-love-child-named-pearl>
<https://andrewbakercomposer.com/mignon-harman/>
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Chris from Lafayette
Apr 17, 2021, 5:34:20 PM4/17/21
to
On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 6:19:54 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 2:47:48 PM UTC+1, Neil wrote:
> > On Thursday, 10 January 2019 13:42:01 UTC, Herman wrote:
> > and is authoritative in the tuttis.
> > > >
> > > Haha, I suspect you meant "masters" rather than "monsters".
> >
> > https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=monster
> >
> yeah, but that "monster" is a noun. Yours is a verb.
Today, I follow gggg gggg in "searching the archives for worthy posts to resurrect"!
But Herman, if you were an athlete, you would surely want "to medal" in the Olympics! ;-)
BTW, I keep hoping that Bärenreiter will come out with a new edition of the Elgar Violin Concerto - like they did with the Cello Concerto in 2005. Aside from the authenticity and scholarship (you have to buy the "critical commentary" separately - to the tune of around $65!), that Bärenreiter edition is beautifully printed and laid out on the page - it's simply a joy to read from, and such an improvement over the ancient original edition, which was no doubt a cash cow for Novello while it was under copyright!
> On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 2:47:48 PM UTC+1, Neil wrote:
> > On Thursday, 10 January 2019 13:42:01 UTC, Herman wrote:
> > and is authoritative in the tuttis.
> > > >
> > > Haha, I suspect you meant "masters" rather than "monsters".
> >
> > https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=monster
> >
> yeah, but that "monster" is a noun. Yours is a verb.
Today, I follow gggg gggg in "searching the archives for worthy posts to resurrect"!
But Herman, if you were an athlete, you would surely want "to medal" in the Olympics! ;-)
BTW, I keep hoping that Bärenreiter will come out with a new edition of the Elgar Violin Concerto - like they did with the Cello Concerto in 2005. Aside from the authenticity and scholarship (you have to buy the "critical commentary" separately - to the tune of around $65!), that Bärenreiter edition is beautifully printed and laid out on the page - it's simply a joy to read from, and such an improvement over the ancient original edition, which was no doubt a cash cow for Novello while it was under copyright!
Bob Harper
Apr 18, 2021, 12:08:29 AM4/18/21
to
> On Monday, January 21, 2019 at 1:57:18 AM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
>> The narrative of the man from middle-middle class beginnings astonishlingly making it to big composer is a British music writing cliche. The British used to have a really hard time picturing somebody making a mark in the arts without being from a genteel background - even though there are virtually no composers, writers etc from the upper class, unless you count Shakespeare if you believe he's the Earl of Oxford.
Which I don't
Bob Harper
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