Complete Shostakovich Symphony Sets Kondrashin

[Lawrence Chalmers]

Amazon prices are prohibitively expensive $200+ Where can I get this set at a better price?

[sfr...@nycap.rr.com]

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 1:27:10 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Chalmers wrote:
> Amazon prices are prohibitively expensive $200+ Where can I get this set at a better price?

Have you considered this as an alternative?
https://www.amazon.com/Shostakovich-Complete-Symphonies-Dmitri/dp/B00005UW2B

Here's a review:
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-7285/?search=1

MIFrost

[J.A.W. Koers]

Op maandag 26 juni 2017 20:26:20 UTC+2 schreef sfr...@nycap.rr.com:

Couldn't find the Kondrashin Shostakovich set at a reasonable price and got the "Complete Symphonies" instead; a nice collection, with Kondrashin doing 2-4 and 12-13, all with the Moscow Philharmonic.

[Marc P.]

Kondrashin's Shostakovich cycle appeared a few years ago on the Russian Venezia label, which is available I believe in Japan only. I have more than a dozen Venezia box sets, the quality is outstanding though I have no idea how their transfers are done. If not available on line the set is bound to turn up used in one of the Disk Union classical stores in Tokyo. 😀

[Lawrence Chalmers]

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 10:27:10 AM UTC-7, Lawrence Chalmers wrote:
> Amazon prices are prohibitively expensive $200+ Where can I get this set at a better price?

I already own the Barshai set which is quite good. I also own the EMI Jansons set which is
with different orchestras (the Eighth with Pittsburgh is a standout). I do own the Aulos (Korean
edition of the entire Kondrashin cycle) as well. I've heard comments that the 4th in that set
is in stereo while the Melodiya is mono. Any comments on that? I can't really explain why I want the Melodiya set, to be honest.

[james.g...@gmail.com]

Isn't the Aulos set simply a Korean packaging of the Melodiya recordings?

[Herman]

On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 8:16:38 PM UTC+2, james.g...@gmail.com wrote:
> Isn't the Aulos set simply a Korean packaging of the Melodiya recordings?

correct it is.

Lawrence, your search is over. You already have it.

[Tony]

On Tuesday, 27 June 2017 20:11:58 UTC+3, Lawrence Chalmers wrote:
>
> I can't really explain why I want the Melodiya set, to be honest.

Collectingitis, my friend. It's a malady. See the digital age for a topical cure which can hide but of course not expunge the trouble.

That said, I've heard that Melodiya have improved their transfer quality (or technique in transferring) since the dark days of the '90s. If this Kondrashin set is from 2008, it wouldn't be worth the expense. I had the Aulos set in the noughties, it was brilliant and I doubt would see any improvement in a 2008 release. The magnetic boxing was pretty cool too.

I can also put in a good word for Venezia -- not the Kondrashin release but other boxes from them. They're available through HMV JP, not expensive, transfers sounded very good to me.

[mo...@cloud9.net]

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 1:27:10 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Chalmers wrote:

> Amazon prices are prohibitively expensive $200+ Where can I get this set at a better price?

I have been told that Venezia is a Russian pirate label that has access to some original Russian tapes, and their sound is usually rather good, including Nikolayeva's best recording of the Shostakovich's Preludes and Fugues.

They are sold only in Tokyo.

Mort Linder

[Marc P.]

In the past few years Venezia has issued a series of large sets in clamshell boxes devoted to Mravinsky, Kondrashin, Rozhdestvensky, Nikolaeva, Golovanov, Kogan, Shafran, etc. which are comprehensive and well transferred. There were several boxes devoted to Rozhdestvensky's Bruckner (he recorded different versions of some), and Kondrashin's allmost complete Mahler cycle. Great stuff.

[172...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, 27 June 2017 05:27:10 UTC+12, Lawrence Chalmers wrote:
> Amazon prices are prohibitively expensive $200+ Where can I get this set at a better price?

On Arkivmusic this set is $85.49 http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=2178714

This is my reference version

[Frank Berger]

#11 by Ivanov? I've never seen that before. Melodiya once
released a Shostakovich #7 supposedly with Ivanov, but some
suspect it's Kondrashin (virtually exact timings plus no
mention of it in Ivanov discographies).

[maestro...@yahoo.com]

Actually the Ivanov 7th was really Svetlanov's recording. But the 11th is genuine and entirely new to the catalogue.

[boombox]

On Tuesday, July 4, 2017 at 3:24:56 AM UTC-4, maestro...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Actually the Ivanov 7th was really Svetlanov's recording. But the 11th is genuine and entirely new to the catalogue.

Which Svetlanov? Certainly not his Melodiya studio recording. That one, and the other 3 Svetlanov performances I've heard are much different in timing from the supposed Ivanov, especially in the third movement, which is typically several minutes longer.

[Frank Berger]

On 7/4/2017 3:24 AM, maestro...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Actually the Ivanov 7th was really Svetlanov's recording. But the 11th is genuine and entirely new to the catalogue.
>

I have no opinion of my own on either recording, but just to
emphasize that one Amazon reviewer said the timings and, to
his ear, the performance on the 7th credited to Ivanov was
identical to Kondrashin (not sure which, I am aware of 2).
I'm also wondering how you know the 11th is genuine.

I couldn't find anything relevant, other than the Amazon
reviewer and total absence of any mention of an Ivanov 11th.

[boombox]

I have compared the two and I recall that even little anomalies or quirks of phrasing were identical, enough so that to me there was no doubt it was the old Kondrashin Melodiya recording.

[Tony]

On Tuesday, 4 July 2017 22:44:22 UTC+3, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> I'm also wondering how you know the 11th is genuine.
>
> I couldn't find anything relevant, other than the Amazon
> reviewer and total absence of any mention of an Ivanov 11th.

Yesterday I checked records.ru and there isn't a data record of a release of Ivanov conducting Sym 11. The website is a thorough though granted not entirely complete database of Russian records. Ivanov conducted a few smaller works by Shostakovich.

It is possible, of course, that the recording was not released until now, or is so rare that there isn't a record of it online.

Last year I uploaded a video of Ivanov conducting Rachmaninoff's PC 2 with Rudolf Kerer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG4_AEror58

Not that it necessarily means anything, but one listener went out of his way to comment -- 'very bad conductor'.

I don't have it with me, but from the same concert there's a video of Ivanov conducting Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture.

[Frank Berger]

Occum's razor suggests that since a) there's no record of
the 11th and be the people responsible for the new release
got the documentation for the 7th wrong, the most likely
think is that the 11th is wrong as well. Maybe someone can
compare it to the 1973 Kondrashin recording for starters.

[Frank Berger]

Correcting myself. I got confused. The new Shostakovich set
does not claim that the 7th is Ivanov's. It says it is
Svetlanov's. But Melodiya did once release a 7th claiming
to be Ivanov's, which appears to be Kondrashin's from 1975.

[Tony]

On Tuesday, 4 July 2017 23:38:54 UTC+3, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> Occum's razor suggests...

I love Occam's razor. It's a mainstay for work.

So Alto released Ivanov's Sym 7 a few years ago

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Shostakovich-Symphony-No-7-Leningrad/dp/B00FXGVOC4

This supposed Ivanov Sym 11 was recorded in 1965.

[Frank Berger]

On 7/4/2017 4:50 PM, Tony wrote:
> On Tuesday, 4 July 2017 23:38:54 UTC+3, Frank Berger wrote:
>>
>> Occum's razor suggests...
>
> I love Occam's razor. It's a mainstay for work.
>
> So Alto released Ivanov's Sym 7 a few years ago
>
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Shostakovich-Symphony-No-7-Leningrad/dp/B00FXGVOC4
>

Except it isn't.

[Tony]

On Wednesday, 5 July 2017 00:08:32 UTC+3, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> Except it isn't.

Oh I see. So Alto were duped as well then.

[Frank Berger]

Apparently, by Melodiya's initial error. Understandable.

[maestro...@yahoo.com]

Melodiya never released or even pretended to release an Ivanov 7th. To my knowledge Melodiya have never misattributed anything. The error was made by the people licensing the recording for their own label. First the Czech label Levne Knihy in 2005, then Alto perpetuated the error. Levne Knihy made the same misattribution to other releases (Smetana Ma Vlast, for instance), so I think they were doing it deliberately. The Smetana was just another well-known Russian recording misattributed to Ivanov.
The 11th, however, is genuine, as Melodiya claim.

[Tony]

On Wednesday, 5 July 2017 09:56:48 UTC+3, maestro...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> The 11th, however, is genuine, as Melodiya claim.

How do you know that?

[Mike]

Yes. He's absolutely right in his demand. Everybody knows that after about post 5 on RMCR, it stops being just chat and sharing of knowledge and opinions, and takes on the character of proof in a court proceeding. Every opinion and substantive statement must be backed up with proof (preferably "links"). Independent reasoning, i.e., reasoning and opinions that are unaccompanied by validating references (it makes no difference how flaky the support sources might be, just that there's a "link" or something) are unworthy of consideration--even of reading. I hope Maestro... now understands how the community of knowledge has devolved and what's expected of him.

[Tony]

On Wednesday, 5 July 2017 12:36:11 UTC+3, Mike wrote:
> Yes. He's absolutely right in his demand. Everybody knows that after about post 5 on RMCR, it stops being just chat and sharing of knowledge and opinions, and takes on the character of proof in a court proceeding. Every opinion and substantive statement must be backed up with proof (preferably "links"). Independent reasoning, i.e., reasoning and opinions that are unaccompanied by validating references (it makes no difference how flaky the support sources might be, just that there's a "link" or something) are unworthy of consideration--even of reading. I hope Maestro... now understands how the community of knowledge has devolved and what's expected of him.
>

Hysterical response. Asking someone how they know something--when there's no online info as far as I can tell--is nothing more than a curious question. Get a grip.

[Frank Berger]

On 7/5/2017 2:56 AM, maestro...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Melodiya never released or even pretended to release an Ivanov 7th. To my knowledge Melodiya have never misattributed anything. The error was made by the people licensing the recording for their own label. First the Czech label Levne Knihy in 2005, then Alto perpetuated the error. Levne Knihy made the same misattribution to other releases (Smetana Ma Vlast, for instance), so I think they were doing it deliberately. The Smetana was just another well-known Russian recording misattributed to Ivanov.

Yes, I confused Alto with Melodiya. But if you think about
it, how could the mistake happen? Surely the material
provided by Melodiya to Alto must say it's by Kondrashin.
Where did someone at Alto get the idea to misattribute to
Ivanov? Why Ivanov?

> The 11th, however, is genuine, as Melodiya claim.
>

I put the odds that you are right at 95%. But I would still
like to know how you know.

[Tony]

On Wednesday, 5 July 2017 18:14:14 UTC+3, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> I put the odds that you are right at 95%. But I would still
> like to know how you know.

But is the Ivanov 7th by Svetlanov as 'maestro' said? Or Kondrashin as others think?

This is why just saying something is so isn't enough in a dispute.

[Frank Berger]

On 7/5/2017 12:04 PM, Tony wrote:
> On Wednesday, 5 July 2017 18:14:14 UTC+3, Frank Berger wrote:
>>
>> I put the odds that you are right at 95%. But I would still
>> like to know how you know.
>
> But is the Ivanov 7th by Svetlanov as 'maestro' said? Or Kondrashin as others think?

I don't know. As someone pointed out (in this thread or in
an Amazon review, I don't remember which) the Alto timings
for the first two movements of the 7th match those of
Melodiya's Kondrashin within a few seconds, but the last two
don't.

>
> This is why just saying something is so isn't enough in a dispute.
>

Yup.

[boombox]

Alto's timings:

26:27 - 10:34 - 15:13 - 18:58

On the BMG Kondrashin edition:

26:31 - 10:33 - 16:40 - 17:25

BUT, here are the timings on the "Firma Melodia" single disk Kondrashin 7th:

26:31 - 10:36 - 15:14 - 19:00

Transcription error? Russian hacking?

I think it's enough to convince me the "Ivanov" is Kondrashin.

[Al Eisner]

The first review at Amazon is extremely detailed and conveys the impression
that its author is knowledgable about recordings of the symphonies and
hence that his judgment is worth considering. This reviewer (Jeff Wolf)
pans the Ivanov 11th (which among other things is very fast), but rates
about half of the set quite highly. FWIW. See
https://www.amazon.com/Shostakovich-All-Symphonies-Various/dp/B01DEAJ9I6/

The Amazon price, by the way, is $71.16.
--
Al Eisner

[Frank Berger]

Highlights of that review include his questioning of the
1966 date given for Kondrashin's 4th (it's probably the 1962
premiere recording) and the first-time-on-cd recording of
Maxim Shostakovich's word premiere of #15. Looks like I'll
have to splurge.

[Frank Berger]

I just ordered it from jet.com. $58 total. Free shipping
and a $10 new member discount.

>

[maestro...@yahoo.com]

The whole issue of the Ivanov 7th was dealt with extremely thoroughly exactly ten years ago in the Classic Record Collector magazine, so it's old news. Melodiya had nothing to do with either the earlier Czech release nor the Alto release (if you had the Alto release, you would see from which source it was licensed!). And it is not the only Alto release which was phony: more research was carried out on another Russian CD (can't remember which, but an internet search will give you all the details). In other words, Melodiya's track record remains excellent.
There's no reason to doubt Melodiya's release of the 11th. But if you do, you can always give the nice people at Melodiya a ring: I'm sure they'll be happy to provide proof.

[Tony]

On Thursday, 6 July 2017 13:30:49 UTC+3, maestro...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> There's no reason to doubt Melodiya's release of the 11th. But if you do, you can always give the nice people at Melodiya a ring: I'm sure they'll be happy to provide proof.

Where do you get the idea that the 7th is by Svetlanov?

You've said more to defend Melodiya in this thread than I've ever seen anywhere else on the internet :)

[maestro...@yahoo.com]

Someone has to defend them :)

Yes, I confused Svetlanov with Kondrashin, sorry about that. It all happened so long ago I just typed without checking, as I was so sure it was Svet. But the important fact is, no matter who it was, it was not Ivanov.

[Tony]

On Thursday, 6 July 2017 15:04:58 UTC+3, maestro...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Someone has to defend them :)
>
> Yes, I confused Svetlanov with Kondrashin, sorry about that. It all happened so long ago I just typed without checking, as I was so sure it was Svet. But the important fact is, no matter who it was, it was not Ivanov.

I was trying to think of an ID error made by Melodiya but haven't been able to come up with one.

So the Ivanov 7 is Kondrashin, and the Ivanov 11 is genuine. The Maxim Shostakovich 15 sounds very appealing.

[gggg gggg]

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 10:27:10 AM UTC-7, 347chalm...@gmail.com wrote:
> Amazon prices are prohibitively expensive $200+ Where can I get this set at a better price?

(Upcoming radio program):

https://www.wfmt.com/2021/08/22/two-shostakovich-world-premiere-performances

[gggg gggg]

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 10:27:10 AM UTC-7, 347chalm...@gmail.com wrote:
> Amazon prices are prohibitively expensive $200+ Where can I get this set at a better price?

On Sunday, radio broadcast:

https://www.wfmt.com/2021/08/22/two-shostakovich-world-premiere-performances