Pianists and Rubato

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gperkins151

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Oct 7, 2010, 5:06:22 PM10/7/10
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I just enjoyed Moiseiwitsch's 1930 Kinderszenen on Naxos Historical,
in which he uses a lot of rubato and does so beautifully. I am now
wondering what other performances by this pianist and others are
played with a lot of rubato? I know that this practice has become less
and less common over the years and I'd like to hear many more
recordings played in this style. Please recommend as many as you can
think of.
Message has been deleted

Andrej Kluge

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Oct 8, 2010, 4:46:50 PM10/8/10
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Hi,

gperkins151 wrote:
> I know that this practice has become less and less common
> over the years

Thank God for small favors...

Sorry, I detest rubato, which (for me) only shows the "Geltungstrieb" of
musicians, if not explicitly instructed in the score.

Ciao
AK

rje

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Oct 8, 2010, 8:08:05 PM10/8/10
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You probably have not heard a pianist play rubato with the exquisite
taste of someone like Mosieiwitsch. On the other hand, perhaps you
like music played with the expressive rhythm of a metronome.

rje

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Oct 9, 2010, 10:27:27 AM10/9/10
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All of Moiseiwitsch's Schumann and Chopin. Also: Ignaz Friedman, Josef
Hofmann, Mischa Levitzky, Rachmaninoff, Paderewski, Harold Bauer, Emil
von Sauer, Raoul Koczalski, Leopold Godowsky, Alfred Cortot, Guiomar
Novaes, Shura Cherkassky, Jorge Bolet, Geza Anda, Arthur de Greef,
Moriz Rosenthal, Solomon, Dinu Lipatti, etc.

Lena

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Oct 9, 2010, 10:39:04 AM10/9/10
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On Oct 8, 1:46 pm, "Andrej Kluge" <kl...@wizzy.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> gperkins151 wrote:
> > I know that this practice has become less and less common
> > over the years
>
> Thank God for small favors...

(laugh) Considering that, I hate to tell you that playing with
(significant) rubato might be making something of a comeback... :)
In HIP, Bezuidenhout, for instance, and in non-HIP, there's always
Pletnev.

(To the OP: sorry, neither pianist is necessarily "recommended," --
they're just examples.)

> Sorry, I detest rubato, which (for me) only shows the "Geltungstrieb" of
> musicians, if not explicitly instructed in the score.
>

I sort of get it.

But do you also detest small rhythmic flexibility? (Most performers
have some, right?)

There are also pieces that seem to have in-built "gestures," rubato
fits those well. (In keyboard music, a lot of pieces labeled
"fantasy," maybe, but others, too.)

To me, there are strong examples in some Haydn string quartets, where
the phrases often seem to fit together like in a balletic duet, with
one person gesturing (usually politely) and another one answering,
interrupting, or producing a spontaneous surprise move.

To me those pieces almost seem modeled on the way humans move,
perhaps. If you don't use any rubato at all, the "human" aspect of it
seems to vanish. Otoh, I'm not saying that a more mechanically played
version of even such a piece is necessarily bad -- a more even style
may bring other benefits.

(This is an irrelevant aside, but actually I find my own tastes kind
of bewildering, because I often end up liking two opposed styles --
one with (well applied) rubato and one that has the wonderful clarity
of precision. Go figure...)

Lena


Kip Williams

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Oct 9, 2010, 12:17:44 PM10/9/10
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Lena wrote:

> (This is an irrelevant aside, but actually I find my own tastes kind
> of bewildering, because I often end up liking two opposed styles --
> one with (well applied) rubato and one that has the wonderful clarity
> of precision. Go figure...)

You must be one of those "humans"!

In another newsgroup, we have for some time had a person who believes
that logic can be applied to everything, and if you say something about
your favorite color, he'll construct a chain that inevitably means you
must have opinion X about the Gold Standard and he will want to know how
you can possibly reconcile that with something you said about liking
chocolate. After a while, I mostly stopped responding to him. I contain
multitudes.


Kip W

JohnGavin

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Oct 9, 2010, 1:07:14 PM10/9/10
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On Oct 7, 5:06 pm, gperkins151 <gperkins...@yahoo.com> wrote:

For me, well executed rubato is a bending that ultimately finds its
way back to the beat. This kind of rubato doesn't seem chaotic, but
is natural sounding.
It was illustrated by Chopin who blew lightly on a candle flame to
show how the flame straightened out after being bent.

A good example of expressive rubato is Alicia DeLarrocha's Goyescas -
she gave the feeling of ebb and flow in a most wonderful way.
Michelangeli's performance of the Chopin Berceuse is another example
of the most subtle and expressive rubato.

I'm sure Moiseiwitch, like Rachmaninoff used rubati in a most skillful
and proportional way, but other "golden age" pianists abused it to
excess IMHO -- to the point where it deteriorated into mannerism.

graham

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Oct 9, 2010, 1:17:02 PM10/9/10
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"JohnGavin" <dag...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:a81a81ca-8545-4221...@i21g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...

On Oct 7, 5:06 pm, gperkins151 <gperkins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I just enjoyed Moiseiwitsch's 1930 Kinderszenen on Naxos Historical,
> in which he uses a lot of rubato and does so beautifully. I am now
> wondering what other performances by this pianist and others are
> played with a lot of rubato? I know that this practice has become less
> and less common over the years and I'd like to hear many more
> recordings played in this style. Please recommend as many as you can
> think of.

For me, well executed rubato is a bending that ultimately finds its
way back to the beat. This kind of rubato doesn't seem chaotic, but
is natural sounding.
It was illustrated by Chopin who blew lightly on a candle flame to
show how the flame straightened out after being bent.

-------------------------
Try Ingrid Fliter's Chopin waltz cd. She blows out the candle and never
seems to be able to find the matches!
Graham


gperkins151

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Oct 9, 2010, 7:36:06 PM10/9/10
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Thanks for all the great suggestions and examples, guys! Luckily, I
have many of those performances in my collection already.

As for the Michelangeli Bercuese, is there a performance in particular

George

Steve Emerson

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Oct 9, 2010, 8:40:45 PM10/9/10
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In article
<3b0e3728-bec5-402a...@z28g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
gperkins151 <gperk...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Sofronitsky's was sublime. Often surprising, usually riveting, and as I
hear it, informed by genius.

Cortot and Rosenthal are two other standouts who consistently use it to
enthralling effect, for me.

Moiseiwitsch's I find annoying as often as not. The work of his that I
like best does use it beautifully.

I wouldn't say that there's a flat descending line as to its currency
over the years. There are probably more people using it now than there
were 30 or 40 years ago. And the idea that it was completely old-hat and
had been thoroughly abandoned was an idea that thrived during the years
when Russian recordings weren't getting much exposure in the West.

SE.

Lena

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Oct 10, 2010, 11:32:10 AM10/10/10
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On Oct 9, 9:17 am, Kip Williams <k...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
> Lena wrote:

[interesting story snipped]

> I contain multitudes.

That's impressive. By contrast, I just contain a lot of bad decision-
making... :)

Lena

Lena

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Oct 10, 2010, 12:15:08 PM10/10/10
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On Oct 9, 5:40 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article
> <3b0e3728-bec5-402a-89b6-4addde672...@z28g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,

>
>  gperkins151 <gperkins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I just enjoyed Moiseiwitsch's 1930 Kinderszenen on Naxos Historical,
> > in which he uses a lot of rubato and does so beautifully. I am now
> > wondering what other performances by this pianist and others are
> > played with a lot of rubato? I know that this practice has become less
> > and less common over the years and I'd like to hear many more
> > recordings played in this style. Please recommend as many as you can
> > think of.
>
> Sofronitsky's was sublime. Often surprising, usually riveting, and as I
> hear it, informed by genius.
>
> Cortot and Rosenthal are two other standouts who consistently use it to
> enthralling effect, for me.

I agree with that and with many of the other examples (like John's).

Otoh, I find it difficult to decouple a pianist's rubato from the rest
of the interpretation -- as a highlighting tool, rubato can substitute
for dynamics, say. Rubato can also convey states of mind, but since
the states conveyed that way are actually those of the pianist, :)
it's understandable if some people view large-scale rubato as a
superfluous item. Rubato might work with the piece, or it might not.
-- so to me, to say that a pianist has a great rubato is almost like
saying that s/he has great crescendos.

> Moiseiwitsch's I find annoying as often as not. The work of his that I
> like best does use it beautifully.

I don't have an opinion about Moiseiwitsch, but I'd agree that there
are pianists whose rubato seems to aim for an overall feeling of
'spontaneity' that may not have much to do with the work played.
(Sorry, but I feel Bezuidenhout sometimes plays like this.)

Lena

mandryka

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Oct 10, 2010, 12:29:42 PM10/10/10
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> > SE.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

How do you tell whether it has anything to do with the work played or
not? Either you like the effect or you don't, surely?

I can't phrase that without making it sound a bit agressive, which is
not my intention at all. I'm not a performer and so I've never been
faced with the problem of making something out of a score. I'm really
curious about the sort of value judgements contained in your reply.

Howard

Lena

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Oct 10, 2010, 12:47:03 PM10/10/10
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A composition can be analyzed pretty well without any reference to any
performance. (Just as a simple example, you might do an analysis of
the harmonic content of the piece, isolate an important harmonic
switch, and use rubato to highlight this. Whatever -- that may not be
the greatest example, but.)

> Either you like the effect or you don't, surely?

You can be more objective about it than that. Performers often
analyze works; quite formally, too.

(That's not to say that there isn't eventually a value judgement at
the bottom of it -- people seem to end up liking certain ways of
composing better than others, and they, pretty legitimately, may want
to view a piece in a light they prefer. However, although there are
fine points of interpretation here too, you can (somewhat credibly)
talk about what the composer may have intended, and also then about
whether that intention conforms to the performer's doings.)

Lena

Bob Lombard

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Oct 10, 2010, 12:49:27 PM10/10/10
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"mandryka" <howie...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:a12acff5-8c7c-4e70...@e20g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...

On Oct 10, 5:15 pm, Lena <emswo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 9, 5:40 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article
> > <3b0e3728-bec5-402a-89b6-4addde672...@z28g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
>
>>

Howard

Works are subject to interpretation, not only by the performer, by the
listener too. If rubato hinders interpretation it is inappropriate.

bl


Lena

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Oct 10, 2010, 12:59:10 PM10/10/10
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On Oct 10, 9:29 am, mandryka <howie.st...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 10, 5:15 pm, Lena <emswo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Otoh, I find it difficult to decouple a pianist's rubato from the rest
> > of the interpretation -- as a highlighting tool, rubato can substitute
> > for dynamics, say.  Rubato can also convey states of mind, but since
> > the states conveyed that way are actually those of the pianist, :)
> > it's understandable if some people view large-scale rubato as a
> > superfluous item.   Rubato might work with the piece, or it might not.
> > -- so to me, to say that a pianist has a great rubato is almost like
> > saying that s/he has great crescendos.
>

>


> How do you tell whether it has anything to do with the work played or
> not?

I don't have time to do an example of this right now, but you could do
a rough analysis of the form of a given piece, and then look at the
rubato of someone like Michelangeli in that piece. You'll probably
find that the rubato doesn't occur in arbitrary ways, in arbitrary
places. (My comment about Bezuidenhout had to do with some Mozart,
where the rubato was "decoupled" from the events in the piece.)

(There are other ways to use rubato, for instance, to bring a slightly
surprising variability into the phrasing, but that might just confuse
this issue, maybe...)

Lena

mandryka

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Oct 10, 2010, 1:27:05 PM10/10/10
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On Oct 10, 5:49 pm, "Bob Lombard" <thorsteinnos...@vermontel.net>
wrote:
> "mandryka" <howie.st...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
> bl- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Interpretation in a semantic concept, right? Effectively it's a
process of translation.

So the performer "translates" the score into a structure of sounds.
Hmmmm.Don't forget how profoundly the score underdetermines the
performance.

And "hinder interpretation". You mean, hinder the listener from doing
something? Doing what?

mandryka

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Oct 10, 2010, 1:33:52 PM10/10/10
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> > Either you like the effect or you don't, surely?- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks. But don't worry about it. I'm pretty sure I don't understand
enough about music to follow the analysis.

I quite like Bezuidenhout in some of the concertos I've heard (less so
in the solo pieces.) One person whose rubato I don’t care for is
Rubsam's -- in the Naxos English suites. I just find all the
hesitations rather annoying, disorienting.

What I find strange is that you think that there's more that can be
said about why the rubato fails.

And one person who's rubato I really like is Segovia's in Albeniz's
Leylandas. What is interesting is that I may be wrong to like it, Your
analysis may reveal that it's a bit fishy.

Lena

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Oct 10, 2010, 1:46:39 PM10/10/10
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That's all fine (with me at least).

> What I find strange is that you think that there's more that can be
> said about why the rubato fails.

I don't know the Rubsam, so I can't comment on that. But I don't
think there's anything strange about saying that a big reason why
rubato might fail is a mismatch between the composer's and the
performer's ideas.

(I think that a lot of people not used to analyzing scores don't
perhaps understand how profoundly a score also *determines* what's
being heard by the listener. :) )

In a way, I suspect that your use of the word "disorienting" is
another clue to that. When you say that a rubato is "disorienting,"
what do you mean, if you don't mean that the performer's rubato works
against the way you, as a listener, parse the composition?

> And one person who's rubato I really like is Segovia's in Albeniz's
> Leylandas. What is interesting is that I may be wrong to like it, Your
> analysis may reveal that it's a bit fishy.

Not necessarily; I like various sorts of rubato... (just not *every*
rubato :) ).

Lena

PS. I really appreciate your sensitive and detailed analyses of
performers, so view this in that light, maybe. :)

Jonathan Ellis

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Oct 10, 2010, 3:12:53 PM10/10/10
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"Steve Emerson" <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote in message
news:emersn-3D1AA3....@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net...

While at music college, I had the misfortune to labour under a teacher who
appeared to be completely anti-rubato in pretty much every way, for my first
two years there. Her greatest insult to me was that I "played like a
Russian".

Being an admirer of the Russian style myself, and enjoying a really
well-done rubato, I took it as a compliment. Which only enraged her further.

Now the pendulum seems to be swinging back, to the extent that some of
today's "new young things" in the music world seem once again to have too
much of it. Or, too much in the wrong places where the rhythm should be
stricter, and not enough when it could be more free... But then, everybody
has a different opinion.

And if it was hard enough to get any deviation from strict metronomic tempo
past my teacher, even in Chopin, it was downright impossible to get away
with it in, say, Mozart or even Beethoven. But personally I think there's
room for it even there, so long as it's subtle and tastefully done...

Jonathan.


Lena

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Oct 10, 2010, 3:14:03 PM10/10/10
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On Oct 10, 10:33 am, mandryka <howie.st...@googlemail.com> wrote:

>
> And one person who's rubato I really like is Segovia's in Albeniz's
> Leylandas. What is interesting is that I may be wrong to like it,

One addition: I didn't say it's ever "wrong" to like something. (I
just made a distinction between what (one thinks) the composer wanted
to say, and what the performer says, and said that this feeling of a
mismatch is what makes many people dislike wide rubato. When this
isn't happening, the same persons might not even notice that there is
any rubato there...)

> Your analysis may reveal that it's a bit fishy.

What makes you think that would happen? Nobody said that analysis
should actually determine what you like...

(I'm guessing that you're throwing this example in as a half-ironic
comment -- considering a) piece b) performer... :) )

Lena


Kip Williams

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Oct 10, 2010, 3:51:06 PM10/10/10
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mandryka wrote:

> How do you tell whether it has anything to do with the work played or
> not? Either you like the effect or you don't, surely?
>
> I can't phrase that without making it sound a bit agressive, which is
> not my intention at all. I'm not a performer and so I've never been
> faced with the problem of making something out of a score. I'm really
> curious about the sort of value judgements contained in your reply.

In my case, I suppose I'd go look at the music. It happens that I play,
but there are also people who, without being able to play, can still
find their way around the printed notes well enough to locate a
particular bar or phrase and see if 'rubato' is in the instructions from
the performer anywhere.


Kip W

mandryka

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Oct 10, 2010, 3:55:39 PM10/10/10
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Sorry. I took this quote:

"but I'd agree that there
are pianists whose rubato seems to aim for an overall feeling of
'spontaneity' that may not have much to do with the work played.
(Sorry, but I feel Bezuidenhout sometimes plays like this.) "

to be a negative evalauation rather than a statement of fact about how
he plays.

My bad.

I know (because I've read your other posts on other subjects) that you
are very tenacious at trying to work out a performer's aims, and that
you are very open minded about styles. I have learned a lot from
your way of doing that.

So I have no excuse.


David Oberman

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Oct 10, 2010, 4:18:33 PM10/10/10
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On Sun, 10 Oct 2010 20:12:53 +0100, "Jonathan Ellis"
<jle3...@gmail.com> wrote:

>And if it was hard enough to get any deviation from strict metronomic tempo
>past my teacher, even in Chopin, it was downright impossible to get away
>with it in, say, Mozart or even Beethoven. But personally I think there's
>room for it even there, so long as it's subtle and tastefully done...

My knee-jerk response is to think of rubato as something applied to
slow to medium tempo pieces. But rubato in a brisk piece can surge &
ebb -- say, the 2nd movement of Beethoven's Op. 109 -- & generate a
propulsion in the music's bowels, like a great beast heaving!

Listen to Claude Frank's circa-1970 recording of 109 for an example of
this.

Lena

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Oct 11, 2010, 9:52:19 AM10/11/10
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On Oct 10, 12:55 pm, mandryka <howie.st...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 10, 8:14 pm, Lena <emswo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 10, 10:33 am, mandryka <howie.st...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > And one person who's rubato I really like is Segovia's in Albeniz's
> > > Leylandas. What is interesting is that I may be wrong to like it,
>
> > One addition: I didn't say it's ever "wrong" to like something.  (I
> > just made a distinction between what (one thinks) the composer wanted
> > to say, and what the performer says, and said that this feeling of a
> > mismatch is what makes many people dislike wide rubato.  When this
> > isn't happening, the same persons might not even notice that there is
> > any rubato there...)
>
> > > Your analysis may reveal that it's a bit fishy.
>
> > What makes you think that would happen?   Nobody said that analysis
> > should actually determine what you like...
>
> > (I'm guessing that you're throwing this example in as a half-ironic
> > comment -- considering a) piece b) performer... :) )
>
> > Lena
>
> Sorry. I took this quote:
>
> "but I'd agree that there
> are pianists whose rubato seems to aim for an overall feeling of
> 'spontaneity' that may not have much to do with the work played.
> (Sorry, but I feel Bezuidenhout sometimes plays like this.) "
>
> to be a negative evalauation rather than a statement of fact about how
> he plays.

Also, it's only about his rubato on his solo Mozart CD (I haven't
heard the concertos).

It's mostly the latter here; I don't even know if the result bothers
me hugely.

But while it's sometimes easy to defend performers (even those I don't
agree with :) ), I couldn't here, because I just don't have a feel for
what Bezuidenhout is trying to do with rubato. Except sound different
or spontaneous, maybe. I may well be missing something...

Unexpected rubato is such a big attention-getter that putting it on a
less deserving note, instead of a more deserving one, seems distorting
in ways other than a literal rhythmic distortion. There are passages
in there, like with the Bb sonata (K. 570), where I can't figure out
the justification for the rubato.

If you have time, try the short passage starting around 30s into the
piece. B. doesn't do any long-lasting rhythmic damage (he's very good
at "righting" the ship, sort of), but I still don't really understand
why he's doing what he's doing.

Lena

(There is no need to be sorry!!)

Lena

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Oct 11, 2010, 9:56:31 AM10/11/10
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On Oct 10, 12:55 pm, mandryka <howie.st...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> > > And one person who's rubato I really like is Segovia's in Albeniz's
> > > Leylandas. What is interesting is that I may be wrong to like it,

I checked this -- the rubato is fantastic.

Lena
(The word is that even the analysis department likes it. :) )

Steve Emerson

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Oct 11, 2010, 1:06:25 PM10/11/10
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In article
<7cd25b95-b2f7-406a...@c21g2000vba.googlegroups.com>,
Lena <emsw...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >
> > Sofronitsky's was sublime. Often surprising, usually riveting, and as I
> > hear it, informed by genius.
> >
> > Cortot and Rosenthal are two other standouts who consistently use it to
> > enthralling effect, for me.
>
> I agree with that and with many of the other examples (like John's).
>
> Otoh, I find it difficult to decouple a pianist's rubato from the rest
> of the interpretation -- as a highlighting tool, rubato can substitute
> for dynamics, say. Rubato can also convey states of mind, but since
> the states conveyed that way are actually those of the pianist, :)
> it's understandable if some people view large-scale rubato as a
> superfluous item. Rubato might work with the piece, or it might not.
> -- so to me, to say that a pianist has a great rubato is almost like
> saying that s/he has great crescendos.

Point taken -- but, an exquisitely timed micro-lag at (what he proves
can be) a significant moment in a work -- is so characteristic of
Sofronitsky, that in a blindfold test you could quickly recognize a
recording as being his on that basis alone. Hence it seems fair to speak
of "his rubato" or what its qualities are.

The Chopin recordings are the most obvious locus of this. Mazurkas,
waltzes, impromptus, Nouvelles Etudes.

SE.

pianomaven

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Oct 11, 2010, 1:21:18 PM10/11/10
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One might consider Cherkassky "mannered" but as I was just swooning
the other day to his exquisite Chopin Nocturne in D flat on an EMI Lp,
I am all for that kind of rubato. He takes the breath away with the
subtlety of his tone and his rhythmic freedom. Like breathing, his
playing is not the slightest bit mechanical.

Frankly all pianists employ rubato. Pollini, Schnabel, Rosen, ABM,
etc. All of them. Yes even Ciccolini, although you might think his
Beethoven weas an exception, as it was typewritten, not played.

The question is whether the rubato sounds natural. Some do it well;
others fail miserably. But they all do it.

TD

Andrej Kluge

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Oct 11, 2010, 2:07:02 PM10/11/10
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Hi,

Lena wrote:
> (laugh) Considering that, I hate to tell you that playing with
> (significant) rubato might be making something of a comeback... :)
> In HIP, Bezuidenhout, for instance, and in non-HIP, there's always
> Pletnev.

Actually, I liked Pletnyov (that's how he's actually pronounced in
Russian -- the transcribed "e" is a "ё") in his Mozart sonatas recorded in
the 80s. Although excruciatingly slow (speaking of KV 533), his approach has
something convincing...

But not much (!) rubato, as far as I can tell. Maybe he changed that over
the years.

>> Sorry, I detest rubato, which (for me) only shows the
>> "Geltungstrieb" of musicians, if not explicitly instructed in the
>> score.
>
> I sort of get it.
>
> But do you also detest small rhythmic flexibility?
>

Well, probably not. When I was writing this, I was thinking of composers
before Chopin. Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert. All of them I like being played
without much rubato, and only if instructed.

What I noticed with many pianists is that they apply rubato in the most
unsuitable places. In places which disrupt the flow of the music/rhythm. Or
even in pieces by Bach/Händel, where it is fatal to do so. See Eberhard
Kraus for Händel harpsichord pieces for a shining example how to play Händel
appropriately: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJZAt3a2a7A (Chaconne G Major)
and ff. No disrupting breaks between bar breaks and other crucial passages.

I admid that most Chopin pieces would sound weird without rubato, and here I
gladly accept this (apparently then newly introduced) "stilisitc device".
But, as I said, this era doesn't interest me as much as the previous one.

Ciao
AK

mandryka

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Oct 11, 2010, 2:21:57 PM10/11/10
to

Glad you liked it. Segovia’s very good.


Those little hesitations about 30 seconds into Bezuidenhout’s K457.
It’s exactly the sort of thing you find in Rubsam’s Bach on piano.


It makes you listen – your rhythmic expectations are momentarily
confounded and so you pay attention.

For what it’s worth, I didn't much enjoy his K457 (I liked the K310
more). K457 may be quite a hard sonata to pull off though – when I
first got that Besuidenhout CD I listened to a whole pile and was
mostly disappointed (I think I ended up liking Anthony Newman most)

David Wake

unread,
Oct 11, 2010, 2:42:44 PM10/11/10
to

You probably won't like this recording of Sofronitsky playing a Schubert
impromptu, then. However, I don't care, because it's one of my
favorite recordings of anything.


Http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DPL6gZ0vMIlQ&v=PL6gZ0vMIlQ&gl=US

gperkins151

unread,
Oct 11, 2010, 3:46:13 PM10/11/10
to
On Oct 11, 2:21 pm, mandryka <howie.st...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> It makes you listen – your rhythmic expectations are momentarily
> confounded and so you pay attention.
>

Very, very good point. This is exactly what happened with me and the
Moiseiwitsch Kinderszenen.

George

mandryka

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Oct 11, 2010, 4:13:58 PM10/11/10
to
On Oct 11, 7:07 pm, "Andrej Kluge" <kl...@wizzy.de> wrote:

> Actually, I liked Pletnyov (that's how he's actually pronounced in
> Russian -- the transcribed "e" is a "ё") in his Mozart sonatas recorded in
> the 80s. Although excruciatingly slow (speaking of KV 533), his approach has
> something convincing...
>
> But not much (!) rubato, as far as I can tell. Maybe he changed that over
> the years.
>

.
>
> Ciao
> AK

Interesting. Can you give me a link to his recording of K533? I have
him in 331-333 and 457.

Your comment about his rubato makes me think that I don't undersand
what rubato is at all -- which could well be the case!

So, do you think that at the start of K457 in Pletnyov's CD, he's
relatvely rubato free?

By the way, thatnks for "Pletnyov" -- very nice.

Lena

unread,
Oct 11, 2010, 4:42:08 PM10/11/10
to
On Oct 11, 11:21 am, mandryka <howie.st...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 11, 2:56 pm, Lena <emswo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 10, 12:55 pm, mandryka <howie.st...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > And one person who's rubato I really like is Segovia's in Albeniz's
> > > > > Leylandas. What is interesting is that I may be wrong to like it,
>
> > I checked this -- the rubato is fantastic.
>
> > Lena
> > (The word is that even the analysis department likes it. :) )
>
> Glad you liked it. Segovia’s very good.
>
> Those little hesitations about 30 seconds into Bezuidenhout’s K457.

(K 570? I think we have different Mozart CDs?)

> It’s exactly the sort of thing you find in Rubsam’s Bach on piano.
>
> It makes you listen – your rhythmic expectations are momentarily
> confounded and so you pay attention.

I disagree a little about the value of surprise per se -- you can be
surprising in a number of ways, but not all surprises are equally
good, or good at all, necessarily. :)

I think the Segovia example does exactly the sort of slightly
surprising illumination of the piece I like (and Rosenthal's and
Sofronitsky's rubato does it, too).

(In the K 570 example, what's wrong, IMO, is that Bezuidenhout should
not have put the rubato on the first-second note of each little
sequence. It should have gone on the last notes, if anywhere. The
notes he has the rubato on aren't as meaningful as the last ones --
and if you take attention away from those last notes, which
successively and very methodically strip away the flats from the three
flatted notes of Eb major in order to bring the piece to F major/C
major, this passage loses a bit of its overall "meaning.")

> For what it’s worth, I didn't much enjoy his K457 (I liked the K310
> more). K457 may be quite a hard sonata to pull off though – when I
> first got that Besuidenhout CD I listened to a whole pile and was
> mostly disappointed (I think I ended up liking Anthony Newman most)

I sort of know what you mean. I have a hard time with most Mozart
piano sonata recordings. (As opposed to recordings of more obviously
ambitious Mozart pieces.)

Lena

Lena

unread,
Oct 11, 2010, 4:48:50 PM10/11/10
to
On Oct 11, 11:07 am, "Andrej Kluge" <kl...@wizzy.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Lena wrote:
> > (laugh)   Considering that, I hate to tell you that playing with
> > (significant) rubato might be making something of a comeback...   :)
> > In HIP, Bezuidenhout, for instance, and in non-HIP, there's always
> > Pletnev.
>
> Actually, I liked Pletnyov (that's how he's actually pronounced in
> Russian -- the transcribed "e" is a "ё") in his Mozart sonatas recorded in
> the 80s. Although excruciatingly slow (speaking of KV 533), his approach has
> something convincing...
>
> But not much (!) rubato, as far as I can tell. Maybe he changed that over
> the years.
>

Me answering post vanished? (If it never appears again, I said
multiple strange things, as well as thanked you for the post and the
Pletnev (pardon) pronunciation...)

Lena

pianomaven

unread,
Oct 11, 2010, 4:53:51 PM10/11/10
to

That's the way his name is pronounced. Not spelled.

TD

Lena

unread,
Oct 11, 2010, 4:54:59 PM10/11/10
to
On Oct 11, 10:06 am, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article
> <7cd25b95-b2f7-406a-ab09-dc868eb1f...@c21g2000vba.googlegroups.com>,

>
>
>
>  Lena <emswo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Sofronitsky's was sublime. Often surprising, usually riveting, and as I
> > > hear it, informed by genius.
>
> > > Cortot and Rosenthal are two other standouts who consistently use it to
> > > enthralling effect, for me.
>
> > I agree with that and with many of the other examples (like John's).
>
> > Otoh, I find it difficult to decouple a pianist's rubato from the rest
> > of the interpretation -- as a highlighting tool, rubato can substitute
> > for dynamics, say.  Rubato can also convey states of mind, but since
> > the states conveyed that way are actually those of the pianist, :)
> > it's understandable if some people view large-scale rubato as a
> > superfluous item.   Rubato might work with the piece, or it might not.
> > -- so to me, to say that a pianist has a great rubato is almost like
> > saying that s/he has great crescendos.
>
> Point taken -- but, an exquisitely timed micro-lag at (what he proves
> can be) a significant moment in a work -- is so characteristic of
> Sofronitsky, that in a blindfold test you could quickly recognize a
> recording as being his on that basis alone.

Yes, possibly -- but as a minute observation, you might have to work
pretty hard to separate the rubato from the rest of the music, so that
this scientific blind test can actually be carried out. :)

Lena

mandryka

unread,
Oct 11, 2010, 5:27:44 PM10/11/10
to
> TD- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

But you spell his name Плетнёв.


Andrej Kluge

unread,
Oct 11, 2010, 5:28:47 PM10/11/10
to
Hi,

mandryka wrote:
>> Actually, I liked Pletnyov (that's how he's actually pronounced in
>> Russian -- the transcribed "e" is a "ё") in his Mozart sonatas
>> recorded in the 80s. Although excruciatingly slow (speaking of KV
>> 533), his approach has something convincing...
>

> Interesting. Can you give me a link to his recording of K533? I
> have him in 331-333 and 457.

It's on a Korean CD in licence from Melodiya (with the Melodiya logo on the
cover), from a series calles "The great piano music of the world", vol. 15.
Cat no. "DE 0131", no EAN code. It contains K. 533, 545, 570 and 576. I
initially taped this recording off the radio in 1991, and it took me years
to eventually find it on CD, some years ago. Ah, here it is:

http://www.amazon.com/Great-Piano-Music-World-Pletnev/dp/B0002HMOD2/

Actually, listening to K.533 with Pletnov, I do think now it is
rubato-esque, but maybe due to its slow overall speed it isn't noticable as
much. Or maybe it's because the rubato is applied in the right places. So --
I stand corrected, sorry for my overreacting in the first place.

> Your comment about his rubato makes me think that I don't undersand
> what rubato is at all -- which could well be the case!

No, don't rely on me, I'm rather sure I'm the one who's the non-expert here.

Looking at http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubato, I see there are different
kinds of rubatos, and that even Mozart was famous for one kind of it, go
figure. Although I understand this citation of him quite differently. Well,
as I said, I am no expert.

> So, do you think that at the start of K457 in Pletnyov's CD, he's
> relatvely rubato free?

I don't know Pletyov's K.457, but I consider the recordigns of Zoltan Kocsis
(1978) nearly rubato-free. Michael Endres (1998) comes close too.

Ciao
AK

Andrej Kluge

unread,
Oct 11, 2010, 5:35:11 PM10/11/10
to
Hi,

(Sorry, I did not see TD's posting)

In German it is indeed, see
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michail_Wassiljewitsch_Pletnjow

Ciao
AK


mandryka

unread,
Oct 12, 2010, 1:32:35 AM10/12/10
to
On Oct 11, 9:42 pm, Lena <emswo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 11, 11:21 am, mandryka <howie.st...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 11, 2:56 pm, Lena <emswo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 10, 12:55 pm, mandryka <howie.st...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>

>
> I disagree a little about the value of surprise per se -- you can be
> surprising in a number of ways, but not all surprises are equally
> good, or good at all, necessarily.  :)

>
> Lena

No disagreement -- I didn't mean to say that the surprise is a good
thing.

These fact/value confusions are one of the traps of this way of
communicationg!

mandryka

unread,
Oct 12, 2010, 1:35:36 AM10/12/10
to
On Oct 11, 10:28 pm, "Andrej Kluge" <kl...@wizzy.de> wrote:
> Hi,> AK

Thanks.Everything Плетнёв does is interesting.

When did he record this?

Howard

Andrej Kluge

unread,
Oct 12, 2010, 2:21:03 AM10/12/10
to
Hi,

mandryka wrote:
>> http://www.amazon.com/Great-Piano-Music-World-Pletnev/dp/B0002HMOD2/


>>
> When did he record this?

Here http://www.hornet.hr/RecStore/arc_ShowArt.asp?gAnr=3103 it says it was
recorded in 1984 (the original Melodiya LP version).

On the Korean CD there is no recording date mentioned.

Ciao
AK


pianomaven

unread,
Oct 12, 2010, 6:00:58 AM10/12/10
to

No. Pletnev. So does he.

TD

mandryka

unread,
Oct 12, 2010, 11:14:15 AM10/12/10
to

That decides matters then. I wish rthings were so easy for Элисо
Вирсаладзе , whose transliteration is a real problem

Kip Williams

unread,
Oct 12, 2010, 12:13:22 PM10/12/10
to
mandryka wrote:
> That decides matters then. I wish rthings were so easy for Элисо
> Вирсаладзе , whose transliteration is a real problem

Joe Adamson makes reference to "Exapno Mapcase" based on a poster for
Harpo Marx's Russian tour in his bio, _Groucho, Harpo, Chico, and
Sometimes Zeppo_. It seems to be how Harpo tried to pronounce his name
when it was written in Cyrillic.

I can tell I'm not the only one who read the book by the number of times
people have used "Exapno Mapcase" or just "Exapno" as online handles for
journals, blogs, or chat.


Kip W

Andrej Kluge

unread,
Oct 12, 2010, 12:41:36 PM10/12/10
to
Hi,

mandryka wrote:

> That decides matters then. I wish rthings were so easy for Элисо
> Вирсаладзе , whose transliteration is a real problem

Eliso Wirsaladse (for German), where's the problem? :-)

Oh, I see German Wikipedia says "Elisso Wirsaladse" -- so my version was
close.

English Wiki says "Eliso Virsaladze" by the way. (full name in Georgian:
ელისო კონსტანტინეს ასული ვირსალაძე :-)

Ciao
AK

mandryka

unread,
Oct 12, 2010, 12:42:19 PM10/12/10
to
> Вирсаладзе , whose transliteration is a real problem- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

I autoquote because I did a major bad. I should have said ელისო
კონსტანტინეს ასული ვირსალაძე

mandryka

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Oct 12, 2010, 12:43:00 PM10/12/10
to
Great minds think alike.

pianomaven

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Oct 12, 2010, 12:51:57 PM10/12/10
to

Ah, but she's Georgian.

TD

Lena

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Oct 12, 2010, 1:39:47 PM10/12/10
to
On Oct 11, 10:32 pm, mandryka <howie.st...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 11, 9:42 pm, Lena <emswo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 11, 11:21 am, mandryka <howie.st...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 11, 2:56 pm, Lena <emswo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 10, 12:55 pm, mandryka <howie.st...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > I disagree a little about the value of surprise per se -- you can be
> > surprising in a number of ways, but not all surprises are equally
> > good, or good at all, necessarily.  :)
>
> > Lena
>
> No disagreement -- I didn't mean to say that the surprise is a good
> thing.

I finally get it, I believe... (And thanks, btw, for the
observations -- I'll sample the Rubsam just for the hell of it.)

> These fact/value confusions are one of the traps of this way of
> communicationg!

That's true.

And I'll try to, perhaps, be more precise in my own
communicationgs... :) . (Except when it's better to be maximally
obfuscatory, of course.)

Lena
:)

Lena

unread,
Oct 12, 2010, 1:46:06 PM10/12/10
to
On Oct 11, 11:07 am, "Andrej Kluge" <kl...@wizzy.de> wrote:

Trying again! :)

> Actually, I liked Pletnyov (that's how he's actually pronounced in
> Russian -- the transcribed "e" is a "ё")
>

Thanks for this -- sorry, I was just using what I thought was the
official estimate...

> But not much (!) rubato, as far as I can tell. Maybe he changed
> that over the years.
>

I haven't heard the Mozart, but I have some (later) CPE Bach and
Beethoven by him; it comes with a certain amount of rhythmic...
flexibility. Some people find it to be too idiosyncratic, I think.
(I've tended to like him, actually.)

>> But do you also detest small rhythmic flexibility?
>
> Well, probably not. When I was writing this, I was thinking of
> composers before Chopin. Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert. All of them
> I like being played without much rubato, and only if instructed.
>
> What I noticed with many pianists is that they apply rubato in the
> most unsuitable places.

I guess I agree with that last point -- and if a piece has a well
defined phrase rhythm as one feature (like a lot of the Classical
literature), sticking to minimal rubato is at least safer.

> In places which disrupt the flow of the music/rhythm. Or
> even in pieces by Bach/Händel, where it is fatal to do so. See
> Eberhard Kraus for Händel harpsichord pieces for a shining example
> how to play Händel appropriately:

> http://www.youtube.com/watchv=MJZAt3a2a7A(Chaconne
>> G Major) and ff.

> No disrupting breaks between bar breaks and other crucial passages.

Yes, I remember this, and the "romantic" counterexample you gave. They
seemed to be based on quite a different understanding of what's behind
the score. (For myself, I thought the "romantic" guy rather overdid
his part of the idea, though.)

Lena

Andrej Kluge

unread,
Oct 12, 2010, 2:16:23 PM10/12/10
to
Hi,

mandryka wrote:

> I quite like Bezuidenhout in some of the concertos I've heard (less
> so in the solo pieces.) One person whose rubato I don’t care for is
> Rubsam's -- in the Naxos English suites. I just find all the
> hesitations rather annoying, disorienting.

Speaking of rubato in Bach (and other baroque organ/harpsichord music):
after years of disappointment I finally found my sould-mate (*): Eberhard
Kraus (which I may have mentioned before) -- he plays everything exactly to
my taste. Specifically I was looking for the Händel harpsichord works which
annoy me the least with the recordings I had fould so far. I've bought
several sets (Cuckston, Dantone, Schenkman, Yates), until one kind soul in a
German NG pointed me out to E. Kraus, and it was my discovery of the decade.
He became on of the artists who's recordings I'll buy blindly. He recorded
quite a lot of Bach and Händel (and other baroque composers such as
Couperin, Kuhnau, Byrd etc), but only a fraction of it has been (re)released
on CD or as MP3 so far. For examples search at YouTube, there is quite a
selection (Bach WTC II, a lot of Händel). The fugues sound pristine, clear
and comprehensible. No lingerings and breaks in the wrong places. That
reminds me of that Mozart citation: "Daß ich immer accurat im tact bleybe.
über das verwundern sie sich alle." (everyone is astonished that I always
stay in the beat" (translation correct?) This is one of my prerequisites for
listening to music: to be able to forget the interpretation/the artist, thus
focussing on the work itself.

To point out the things that annoy me with other harpsichordists would be
tiresome and would mean to side-by-side listen to the respective pieces and
point out every bar, but in general I would say that Kraus has an
phenomenal, intuitive, "correct" feeling for rhythm necessary for this kind
of music. As one finds in one of a thousands or so. Others that have this
are Gould, Kocsis, Zimerman, Ranki, IMHO.

As for post-classical composers I'll keep quiet, I admid that Chopin and the
likes would sould weird without that special kind of rubato.

Ciao
AK

* One other organist comes close: Holm Vogel on the two Capriccio CDs with
Bach's Trio Sonatas played on organ - absolutely lovely.

Matthew B. Tepper

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Oct 12, 2010, 2:42:51 PM10/12/10
to
Kip Williams <k...@rochester.rr.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:CO%so.4939$7z4....@newsfe17.iad:

> mandryka wrote:
>> That decides matters then. I wish rthings were so easy for Элисо
>> Вирсаладзе , whose transliteration is a real problem
>
> Joe Adamson makes reference to "Exapno Mapcase" based on a poster for
> Harpo Marx's Russian tour in his bio, _Groucho, Harpo, Chico, and
> Sometimes Zeppo_. It seems to be how Harpo tried to pronounce his name
> when it was written in Cyrillic.

If you haven't already, you should read what Harpo himself said about it in
his autobiography, Harpo Speaks. (I'd look it up for you, but even though
I'm taking some vacation time, I'm away from my home right now, so can't go
to my rather full shelf of Marxiana for reference.)

> I can tell I'm not the only one who read the book by the number of times
> people have used "Exapno Mapcase" or just "Exapno" as online handles for
> journals, blogs, or chat.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
***** War is Peace **** Freedom is Slavery **** Fox is News *****
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers

Andrej Kluge

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Oct 12, 2010, 3:24:57 PM10/12/10
to
Hi,

Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> If you haven't already, you should read what Harpo himself said
> about it in his autobiography, Harpo Speaks.

Harpo? "Moviestar"-Harpo?

Ciao
AK

Al Eisner

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Oct 12, 2010, 9:02:35 PM10/12/10
to
On Mon, 11 Oct 2010, David Wake wrote:

> You probably won't like this recording of Sofronitsky playing a Schubert
> impromptu, then. However, I don't care, because it's one of my
> favorite recordings of anything.
>
> Http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DPL6gZ0vMIlQ&v=PL6gZ0vMIlQ&gl=US

That link doesn't get me anywhere useful. I think you mean
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL6gZ0vMIlQ. If so, fascinating!
--

Al Eisner

Lena

unread,
Oct 13, 2010, 11:43:02 AM10/13/10
to
It's great, I think.. (This mercifully discards the 'tune+the rest is
fog' concept... I much like all these bits of the accompaniment that
keep rising into view and then vanishing again.)

Lena

Al Eisner

unread,
Oct 13, 2010, 4:04:13 PM10/13/10
to
On Sun, 10 Oct 2010, Lena wrote:

> On Oct 10, 9:29 am, mandryka <howie.st...@googlemail.com> wrote:


>> On Oct 10, 5:15 pm, Lena <emswo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Otoh, I find it difficult to decouple a pianist's rubato from the rest
>>> of the interpretation -- as a highlighting tool, rubato can substitute
>>> for dynamics, say.  Rubato can also convey states of mind, but since
>>> the states conveyed that way are actually those of the pianist, :)
>>> it's understandable if some people view large-scale rubato as a
>>> superfluous item.   Rubato might work with the piece, or it might not.
>>> -- so to me, to say that a pianist has a great rubato is almost like
>>> saying that s/he has great crescendos.
>>

>> How do you tell whether it has anything to do with the work played or
>> not?
>
> I don't have time to do an example of this right now, but you could do
> a rough analysis of the form of a given piece, and then look at the
> rubato of someone like Michelangeli in that piece. You'll probably
> find that the rubato doesn't occur in arbitrary ways, in arbitrary
> places. (My comment about Bezuidenhout had to do with some Mozart,
> where the rubato was "decoupled" from the events in the piece.)
>
> (There are other ways to use rubato, for instance, to bring a slightly
> surprising variability into the phrasing, but that might just confuse
> this issue, maybe...)

Would apparently-arbitrary or inappropriate rubato be more acceptable
if synchronized with a display of eye-rolling by the pianist? This
thought occurred to me while listening to a recent performance of
a Chopin Etude on the radio today....
--

Al Eisner

Al Eisner

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Oct 13, 2010, 8:11:41 PM10/13/10
to

I was amazed at how much I liked this, considering that it is so different
from what I'm accustomed to and love (e.g., that by Lupu, who I think tends
to work his magic by control of dynamics and tone).

[I might well want to get hold of some of Sofronitsky's Impromptus on CD --
they seem to be scattered around, but there are some Vista Very CDs with
three or four of them. (Is that label at all decent?)]
--

Al Eisner

Steve Emerson

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Oct 13, 2010, 11:47:51 PM10/13/10
to
In article
<Pine.SOC.4.64.10...@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>,
Al Eisner <eis...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:

Yes, provided the source material is. But it often is not. I'd be leery
of anything recorded at the Scriabin Museum.

The topmost place to look for Sofronitsky Impromptus is the 2-CD BMG
Russian Piano School set devoted to him, where you get his D.899/3 and
D.899/4 from about 1960 in good sound. (Not to be confused with another
VS "Russian Piano School" issue on RCD.) There are affordable used
copies on Amazon, and of course it's full of treasures.

For 899/3, there are also two other performances: 1958 on Arlecchino and
a second 1960 one on Denon. That's what is on Youtube. The BMG is 30
seconds shorter and in better sound.

Besides those two works, there's a D.899/1 from 1958 on Arlecchino and
no doubt other labels, as well as a lesser 899/1 from 1953 on Denon.
And there is a 1960 D.935/2 on Denon and Arlecchino.

SE.

Christian Scheen

unread,
Oct 14, 2010, 5:06:25 AM10/14/10
to
Steve Emerson wrote:

> [...]


>
> The topmost place to look for Sofronitsky Impromptus is the 2-CD BMG
> Russian Piano School set devoted to him, where you get his D.899/3 and
> D.899/4 from about 1960 in good sound. (Not to be confused with another
> VS "Russian Piano School" issue on RCD.) There are affordable used
> copies on Amazon, and of course it's full of treasures.
>
> For 899/3, there are also two other performances: 1958 on Arlecchino and
> a second 1960 one on Denon. That's what is on Youtube. The BMG is 30
> seconds shorter and in better sound.
>
> Besides those two works, there's a D.899/1 from 1958 on Arlecchino and
> no doubt other labels, as well as a lesser 899/1 from 1953 on Denon.
> And there is a 1960 D.935/2 on Denon and Arlecchino.
>
> SE.

For the Schubert Impromptus, here is what Farhan Malik's discography
gives (p. 70), limiting myself to the editions on CD:

899/1: 1. 1953 (Arlecchino ARL 183, Denon COCO-80383/4, Russian Compact
Disc RCD 16288). This has been re-issued on Denon COCQ-83667/8. I also
believe it is on Vista Vera VVCD-00031 and (surprisingly) on Vista Vera
VVCD-00203 (a much more recent CD than VVCD-00031). It is a studio
recording (8:56).

899/3: 1. 1949-11-01 (no edition on CD yet, though I have a doubt about
what appears in the Brilliant Classics set; see below). I believe it is
a live recording from Leningrad (7:04).
2. 1960-05-13 (Arlecchino ARL 183, Melodiya 74321 25177-2). This has
been re-issued on Melodiya MEL CD 10 00747. I also believe it is on TKM
Records TNS LS (Living Stage) 4035182. It is a live recording (5:55).
3. 1960-08-19 (Arlecchino ARL 183, Denon COCO-80383/4). This has been
re-issued on Denon COCQ-83667/8. I also believe it is on Vista Vera
VVCD-00031. It is a studio recording (6:38).

Since the publication of Farhan Malik's discography, there has been at
least two other recordings published of 899/3:
4. 1948-01-05 (according to Vista Vera VVCD-00203). It is a live
recording from Moscow (7:08). It seems that Vista Vera has issued (on
VVCD-00203 and VVCD-00204) the whole 1948-01-05 recital that contains
the Chopin Polonaise opus 44 mentioned by Farhan Malik (p. 65).
5. 1948-11-12 (according to Brilliant Classics BRIL 8975/8) (6:48).
This one is a complete mystery to me, but dates and venues given by
Brilliant Classics are (most of the time) a complete mess. Maybe it
is the Leningrad version mentioned above?

899/4: 1. 1960-05-13 (Arlecchino ARL 183, Melodiya 74321 25177-2). This
has been re-issued on Melodiya MEL CD 10 00747. I also believe it is on
TKM Records TNS LS (Living Stage) 4035182. It is a live recording
(7:04).

Since the publication of Farhan Malik's discography, Vista Vera has
issued another recording of 899/4:
2. 1948-01-05 (according to Vista Vera VVCD-00203). It is a live
recording from Moscow (6:40).

935/2: 1. 1960-08-19 (Arlecchino ARL 183, Denon COCO-80383/4). This has
been re-issued on Denon COCQ-83667/8. I also believe it is on Vista
Vera VVCD-00031 and (again surprisingly) on Vista Vera VVCD-00203.

Hope that helps.

--
Christian Scheen

Message has been deleted

Al Eisner

unread,
Oct 14, 2010, 7:17:59 PM10/14/10
to
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010, Steve Emerson wrote:

> Al Eisner <eis...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>> [I might well want to get hold of some of Sofronitsky's Impromptus on CD --
>> they seem to be scattered around, but there are some Vista Very CDs with
>> t