Fastest op.59 "Razumovsky" no.3 final fugue on record?
Pierre-Normand Houle
the Budapest String Quartet (1961 recording)
This was programmed by the Guarneri quartet two weeks
ago in a recital here in Montreal (together with the quartet op.127)
So, before attending, I listened again to this quartet, this time
the Gabrieli String Quartet interpretation (1979). I thought
the tempo of the final fugue (last movement) was almost insanely fast.
The next day, I listened to the Guarneri, live. They weren't
quite as fast as the Gabrieli but much faster than the Budapest.
(The whole performance + op.127 was great)
In the meantime, I've bought the Guarneri integral (BMG
remastering in 2003. No indication of original recording dates on
the box or booklet) Here, they play the fugue even faster than
the Gabrieli but still with great control, articulation and precision.
The recording times are as follow (fourth movement : Allegro molto)
Budapest 1961 : 6 min. 36 sec.
Gabrieli 1979 : 5 min. 46 sec.
Guarneri (?) : 5 min. 25 sec.
It seems hardly possible, but has anybody ever played it faster?
And without ruining it in the process? (The Guarneri is very
musical throughout) Can somebody look up the timings
for some recordings of the Alban Berg, Julliard, Hagen, etc?
Johannes Roehl
> I first heard Beethoven's Razumovsky quartet op.59 no.3 with
> the Budapest String Quartet (1961 recording)
>
> remastering in 2003. No indication of original recording dates on
> the box or booklet) Here, they play the fugue even faster than
> the Gabrieli but still with great control, articulation and precision.
>
> The recording times are as follow (fourth movement : Allegro molto)
>
> Budapest 1961 : 6 min. 36 sec.
> Gabrieli 1979 : 5 min. 46 sec.
> Guarneri (?) : 5 min. 25 sec.
>
> It seems hardly possible, but has anybody ever played it faster?
> And without ruining it in the process? (The Guarneri is very
> musical throughout) Can somebody look up the timings
> for some recordings of the Alban Berg, Julliard, Hagen, etc?
One has to be careful to look if the CD-track-timing really starts at
the beginning of the fugue and also the booklet timings are often upt to
ten seconds off, so I can offer (they are all fast enough for my taste):
Juilliard 1964 5:32 (says 5:35)
Melos 1985 5:37 (says 5:41)
Wiener Musikverein 1991 5:29 (says 5:33)
Emerson 1994 ca. 5:22
(here the new track starts 30 seconds earlier in the Menuetto and thus
the track timing is very misleading. Maybe that's also the case on the
Budapest recording)
HTH
Johannes
Pierre-Normand Houle
"Johannes Roehl" <parr...@web.de> wrote in message news:2jfm96F...@uni-berlin.de...
No, the Budapest timing only includes the final movement. It's really
much slower. Thanks for checking all these. I'll check more precisely
my three contenders.
Tom Deacon
on record.
For me it is certainly the clearest.
The greatest quartet which never became famous? Of course.
TD
Peter Hennings
The New Music Quartet, on an early 1950's recording on the Bartok
Records label, clocks in at a blazing 5 min. 17 sec., masterfully
played. I am no expert on this piece, but I understand that this
recording was meant to conform to Beethoven's original metronome
markings.
Sincerely,
Peter Hennings
Peter Schenkman
The New Music Quartet was quite a remarkable group whose recordings
(if you can find them) hold up very nicely. Members were Brodus Earle,
Matthew Raimondi, Walter Trampler and Claus Adam. The Beethoven Opus
59, No. 3 that Tom mentions (recorded for the Bartok label) is very
good and not just because they play it fast (what a foolish thread)
but because they play it well. They did a recording of the Hugo Wolf
Quartet in D Minor for Columbia (ML 4821) which is one of the better
quartet recordings by any group. The piece which never seems to get
played is damn good and in many ways foreshadows Schoenberg's First
Quartet, Opus 7.
Peter Schenkman
Philip Peters
I have the op.59(3) but off the top of my head I seem to remember that
this has David Soyer playing cello (which he later sucessfully continued
in the Guarneri Qt.).
Philip
Paul Goldstein
>> The New Music Quartet was quite a remarkable group whose recordings
>> (if you can find them) hold up very nicely. Members were Brodus Earle,
>> Matthew Raimondi, Walter Trampler and Claus Adam. The Beethoven Opus
>> 59, No. 3 that Tom mentions (recorded for the Bartok label) is very
>> good and not just because they play it fast (what a foolish thread)
>> but because they play it well. They did a recording of the Hugo Wolf
>> Quartet in D Minor for Columbia (ML 4821) which is one of the better
>> quartet recordings by any group. The piece which never seems to get
>> played is damn good and in many ways foreshadows Schoenberg's First
>> Quartet, Opus 7.
>>
>> Peter Schenkman
>
>I have the op.59(3) but off the top of my head I seem to remember that
>this has David Soyer playing cello (which he later sucessfully continued
>in the Guarneri Qt.).
The Bartok CD reissue (BR 1009) identifies Claus Adam as the cellist.
It sure would be nice to see more NMQ on CD from Bartok.
Paul Goldstein
Pierre-Normand Houle
"Philip Peters" <phi...@p-peters.demon.nl> wrote in message news:40D38536...@p-peters.demon.nl...
David Soyer founded the Guarneri Quartet. But he has been
recently replaced by Peter Wiley, who has been Soyer's strudent when
he was admitted at the Curtis Institute at age thirteen.
Mr Duffy
> The recording times are as follow (fourth movement : Allegro molto)
>
> Budapest 1961 : 6 min. 36 sec.
> Gabrieli 1979 : 5 min. 46 sec.
> Guarneri (?) : 5 min. 25 sec.
>
> It seems hardly possible, but has anybody ever played it faster?
> And without ruining it in the process? (The Guarneri is very
> musical throughout) Can somebody look up the timings
> for some recordings of the Alban Berg, Julliard, Hagen, etc?
Alban Berg Quartet, 1st version: 5'54" (6'09").
Hi, Mr Duffy
David Wake
Peter Hennings
>
> It sure would be nice to see more NMQ on CD from Bartok.
>
> Paul Goldstein
There are two more CD reissues of the New Music String Quartet on the
Bartok label: BR1911, music of the 18th century, featuring works of
Scarlatti, Tartini, Boccherini, Franz Richter, and Carl Stamitz; and
BR1906 containing more contemporary works by Bartok(#3) Stravinsky,
Alban Berg and Alfredo Casella. I am not sure if Peter Bartok has any
more NMQ in the vaults - I'll check and post when he gets back from
Europe at the end of the month.
Sincerely,
Peter Hennings
Peter Schenkman
> > Tom Deacon <deac...@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<BCF852A3.3A32%deac...@nospam-yahoo.com>...
> > (if you can find them) hold up very nicely. Members were Brodus Earle,
> > Matthew Raimondi, Walter Trampler and Claus Adam. The Beethoven Opus
> > 59, No. 3 that Tom mentions (recorded for the Bartok label) is very
> > good and not just because they play it fast (what a foolish thread)
> > but because they play it well. They did a recording of the Hugo Wolf
> > Quartet in D Minor for Columbia (ML 4821) which is one of the better
> > quartet recordings by any group. The piece which never seems to get
> > played is damn good and in many ways foreshadows Schoenberg's First
> > Quartet, Opus 7.
> >
> > Peter Schenkman
>
> I have the op.59(3) but off the top of my head I seem to remember that
> this has David Soyer playing cello (which he later sucessfully continued
> in the Guarneri Qt.).
>
> Philip
Claus Adam was the founding ‘cellist in the New Music Quartet from
1948 – 1955 when he left for the Juilliard String Quartet. The
Beethoven Opus 59, No. 3 recording mentioned was done with Mr. Adam as
well as most of the quartets other recordings.
Bartok Records has released the Beethoven on CD. The following address
should get you there.
Peter Schenkman
Paul Goldstein
says...
Thanks, Peter. You are right, of course: Sony is the holder of the NMQ's
Mendelssohn, Boccherini, etc., recordings.
Paul Goldstein
Pierre-Normand Houle
"Peter Schenkman" <peter_s...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:35b39934.04061...@posting.google.com...
> Claus Adam was the founding 'cellist in the New Music Quartet from
> 1948 - 1955 when he left for the Juilliard String Quartet. The
> Beethoven Opus 59, No. 3 recording mentioned was done with Mr. Adam as
> well as most of the quartets other recordings.
>
> Bartok Records has released the Beethoven on CD. The following address
> should get you there.
>
> http://www.bartokrecords.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BRO&Product_Code=%231909&Category_Code=CD
>
> Peter Schenkman
Thanks! I have been looking for this on Amazon (and eBay) and simply
assumed this record was out of print.
Alan Watkins
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Tom Deacon
62c8649c.04061...@posting.google.com, "Alan Watkins"
<alanwa...@aol.com> wrote:
> Not qualified to speak about string quartets but fast is best?
Not at all, Alan.
But the New Music String Quartet, with their superfast finale of this
quartet, makes a case for Beethoven's metronome markings. And they do it
with style, accuracy, and not a little passion. The speed is only part of
the equation in this case. But still a part, nonetheless.
TD
Dan Koren
Duh!
It never became famous because its
principals moved on to form other,
longer lived string ensembles.
dk
Tom Deacon
c1c5ead9.0406...@posting.google.com, "Dan Koren"
<dank...@yahoo.com> wrote:
DUH!
They moved on to form other, longer lived string ensembles because they
couldn't make this one famous.
DUH!
Are there no limits, one wonders, to Koren's innate stupidity?
As deep as the ocean, as infinite as the skies, as dumb as they come.
TD
Eric Grunin
<deac...@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 6/20/04 5:39 PM, in article
>c1c5ead9.0406...@posting.google.com, "Dan Koren"
><dank...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Tom Deacon <deac...@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:<BCF852A3.3A32%deac...@nospam-yahoo.com>...
>>> Surely the New Music String Quartet version on
>>> Bartok is the fastest version on record.
>>>
>>> For me it is certainly the clearest.
>>>
>>> The greatest quartet which never became
>>> famous? Of course.
>>>
>>
>> Duh!
>>
>> It never became famous because its
>> principals moved on to form other,
>> longer lived string ensembles.
>
>
>DUH!
>
>They moved on to form other, longer lived string ensembles because they
>couldn't make this one famous.
Actually, no. I heard David Soyer say the ensemble broke up because of
personality conflicts, and that ultimately the quartet "blew up". Have
you heard otherwise?
Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
Tom Deacon
"Eric Grunin" <a@b.c> wrote:
Conflicts arise in every string quartet which has ever existed.
A picture of the Budapest String Quartet would show the four players waiting
for a train. They are all sitting at a significant distance from one another
on the same platform.
The original New Music Quartet did not include David Soyer. By the time he
was involved in the ensemble, the quartet seems already to have been in
decline, professionally speaking, of course.
Perhaps the real explanation is that there were too many "stars" in the
ensemble. Trampler, for example, was a great soloist on the viola.
The NMQ remains a great quartet, perhaps the greatest, in my opinion, from
the 1950s.
TD
Peter Schenkman
The Budapest, one of the best string quartets of their era was a
curious case of three plus one. First violinist Josef Roisman went his
own way, traveled by himself etc. The other three, Sacha Schneider,
his ‘cellist brother, Mischa and violist Boris Kroyt operated as a
social unit. This didn't seem to change during Sacha's periodic
sabbaticals when he was replaced by Edgar Ortenberg and later Jac
Gorodetzki. You would never know it from the playing however.
Good as the New Music Quartet was there was also in the 1950's the
fabled Hollywood Quartet which can be heard in it's entire recorded
output on the Testament label and was really as good as people say
they were.
Peter Schenkman
Alan Watkins
Hmmmmm......
Tom Deacon
35b39934.0406...@posting.google.com, "Peter Schenkman"
<peter_s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Good as the New Music Quartet was there was also in the 1950's the
> fabled Hollywood Quartet which can be heard in it's entire recorded
> output on the Testament label and was really as good as people say
> they were.
They were, indeed, Peter, very good. But I don't feel that they produced any
single recording of a genuine masterpiece on the level of the NMSQ Op. 59
No. 3. Often I feel like saying, "Good, but no cigar!" Compared to many of
today's quartets, of course, they were giants. But that is another
discussion, isn't it?
Moreover, are you sure that ALL of the HQ has been transferred to Testament?
I have not done any research on this, but I thought that my old Capitol LPs
contained some things which Stuart Brown had chosen not to release. But
perhaps I have just not caught up with the totality of that repertoire on
CD.
TD
Tom Deacon
62c8649c.04062...@posting.google.com, "Alan Watkins"
<alanwa...@aol.com> wrote:
Good to see that I have made you think about it, Alan, even although you may
disagree completely.
TD
Peter Schenkman
I couldn't state with certainty (not possessing a discography) that
the entire recorded output of the Hollywood Quartet has appeared on
Testament but I can't think of anything from the LP era that I haven't
seen. The Testament releases total 14 well filled CD's and would seem
to even have all of the works with piano done with Victor Aller
brother of ‘cellist Eleanor. You'll find the stuff they did with
Sinatra on Capitol CDP 7 46572 2.
The New Music Quartet was certainly more of thinking mans string
quartet when compared to the Hollywood players but then people tend to
look down their noses at those top musicians who soil themselves by
daring to play commercially.
Peter Schenkman
Tom Deacon
35b39934.04062...@posting.google.com, "Peter Schenkman"
<peter_s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I am not affected for a single minute by the HQ members' other activities in
the search of a living, Peter. So rest easy on that score.
I simply have not heard a single recording of theirs which makes the kind of
musical and technical statement that the NMQ does in Op. 59 # 3. Perhaps you
have a suggestion? I cannot, myself, think of one. Maybe the Schoenberg VN?
But even that, you know, is bested by the early 50s Stokowski mono version
on RCA. No, I have tried, but cannot think of any.
TD
David7Gable
If I may reduce this thread to the level of The National Enquirer, does anybody
know the story of how the New Music Quartet broke up? Apparently two of the
members got into a very serious physical altercation during a rehearsal and
that was it.
-david gable
David7Gable
>
>Paul Goldstein
And more likely than from Sony, which owns the Columbia recordings. But how
much is there on Bartok Records?
-david gable
David7Gable
Peter,
Is the Berg quartet recorded by the New Music Qtet the Op. 3 or the Lyric
Suite?
-david gable
David7Gable
Continuing with bios of New Music Quartet members, violinist Matthew Raimondi
went on to found The Composers Quartet, which made a couple of sensational
recordings for Nonesuch, including one of Carter's first two quartets. Later a
couple of recordings appeared on Musical Heritage Society (an LP with Carter's
3rd) and on Music & Arts (a CD with Carter's 4th and other quartets). Of their
Nonesuch recordings, their sensational recording of Carter's first two quartets
has been reissued on CD by Elektra/Nonesuch. The small label Tzadik recently
reissued their Nonesuch recording of Babbitt's 2nd Quartet. A pity nobody has
seen fit to license their recording of Ruth Crawford Seeger's String Quartet,
the Babbitt's discmate in LP days. They've also recorded the Weber and Brahms
Clarinet Quintets.
-david gable
David7Gable
>principals moved on to form other,
>longer lived string ensembles.
Well, The New Music Quartet was around for nearly a decade and made records for
Columbia.
-david gable
David7Gable
>personality conflicts, and that ultimately the quartet "blew up".
That's exactly what I heard.
-david gable
David7Gable
>for a train. They are all sitting at a significant distance from one another
>on the same platform.
Not surprising. Robert Mann once said the secret of the Juilliard Quartet's
longevity was that the members of the quartet slept on different floors in the
hotels where they stayed. Bad enough to rehearse and perform with each other
day in, day out.
-david gable
David7Gable
>fabled Hollywood Quartet which can be heard in it's entire recorded
>output on the Testament label and was really as good as people say
>they were.
I agree. And there was yet another great American string quartet active in the
50's, the Juilliard.
-david gable
David7Gable
>look down their noses at those top musicians who soil themselves by
>daring to play commercially.
How about singers? There's always Marni Nixon, the voice of Liza Dolittle and
one of the two extraordinary sopranos in Robert Craft's Webern box. But then
ALL of his performers were Hollywood studio musicians who rehearsed without pay
often singly or in pairs with Craft before going into the studios to make not
always perfectly polished recordings.
-david gable
David7Gable
Not necessarily, and while the New Music Quartet's performance is a tour de
force, it's harder to hear what's going on in Beethoven's counterpoint in their
performance not so much because of the speed as because of the way they are
forced to play at that speed.
-david gable
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:20040625005338...@mb-m22.aol.com:
Where would you place the Pro Arte as constituted in those days? (I know
the Guarneri wasn't founded until 1964.)
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Peter Hennings
It is the Op.3
-P.H.
Tom Deacon
20040625005951...@mb-m22.aol.com, "David7Gable"
<david...@aol.com> wrote:
I have never had that problem, David.
Yes, it goes by like the speed of light. But if you listen carefully you can
still hear everything.
For me this performance is just about as close to "definitive" as music
should be allowed to get. Heifetz does the same thing once in a while too.
Intimidating. Even frightening. But thrilling all the same.
TD
David7Gable
>the Guarneri wasn't founded until 1964.)
>
The Pro Arte I haven't heard enough to comment on. I must say I never thought
the Guarneri was on the level of The New Music, the Juilliard, or the Hollywood
Qtet.
-david gable
Lena
I haven't heard this for a while (and it's not that easy for me to
listen to it now) so I should really not add an opinion. But,
considering how many people opine here without having heard anything
in decades :) I'll state that my last recorded opinion on this
performance is in basic agreement with David. (Although I won't
speculate what their perceived slight failures are really due to.)
(Also, from the little I've heard, the NMQ has a fairly rhytmically
mechanical style which I don't really like that much (though I suppose
I can understand that some people do). Performance fashion seems to
have swung to a "precision" fetish at a certain point in time, and
some quartets - as well as other musicians - suffer from this
affliction a bit too much... (All relative to my taste, naturally.))
Lena
Alan Cooper
I think that they were capable of playing at that level in their early
years. But you had to hear them in the right repertoire, and
preferably in concert. Their Smetana #1 (one of their two debut
recordings for RCA) yields nothing to the Hollywood's in terms of
verve and virtuosity, and the coupling (Dvorak op. 105) is still my
favorite recording of that great work. The Guarneri's Mendelssohn op.
13 is every bit as fine as the NMQ's, imo.
AC
Tom Deacon
"David7Gable" <david...@aol.com> wrote:
David Soyer was never up to the level of the original performers in the NMQ.
Perhaps he was the weak link that brought the group down?
Alan Watkins
That is fair comment but over the years in Beethoven 7/9 I have been
left grabbing desperately at notes which I do not think enhance the
composer. In 7 I went off superfast finales a long time ago (ditto
Scherzo 9) and in the humble Symphony 8 finale with the cross hand
stuff you end up sounding like Keith Moon in The Who if you are pushed
too much, none of which enhances Beethoven (in my opinion).
High speed is a killer for my instrument so I am probably naturally
nervous about it:):)
Thijs Bonger
> On 6/21/04 1:38 AM, in article 0pscd0ta433js2lok...@4ax.com,
> "Eric Grunin" <a@b.c> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 17:44:20 -0400, Tom Deacon
> > <deac...@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 6/20/04 5:39 PM, in article
> >> c1c5ead9.0406...@posting.google.com, "Dan Koren"
> >> <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Tom Deacon <deac...@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>> news:<BCF852A3.3A32%deac...@nospam-yahoo.com>...
> was involved in the ensemble, the quartet seems already to have been in
> decline, professionally speaking, of course.
Do you know their Philips LP of Schumann opp. 41,2 and 3? I.m.o. one
of the very best(with David Soyer) and, alas, never transferred to CD.
Thijs Bonger
Thijs Bonger
> >>>> famous? Of course.
> > Actually, no. I heard David Soyer say the ensemble broke up because of
> > you heard otherwise?
>
>
Do you know their Philips LP of Schumann's opp. 41,2 and 3? I.m.o. one
of the very best, in spite of the presence of David Soyer ;-).
Unfortunately it has never been transferred to CD. Sonically it is
also O.K., many Philips recordings of that period are.
Thijs Bonger
Thijs Bonger
Thijs Bonger
Sorry fot this triple posting, the server was to blame.
Thijs B.
rofke
The Flonzaly in 1920. To be heared at:
http://www.geocities.com/composities
rolf
"Pierre-Normand Houle" <houlepn...@attglobal.net> wrote in message news:<fSvAc.58889$YI6.5...@wagner.videotron.net>...
> I first heard Beethoven's Razumovsky quartet op.59 no.3 with
> the Budapest String Quartet (1961 recording)
>
> This was programmed by the Guarneri quartet two weeks
> ago in a recital here in Montreal (together with the quartet op.127)
>
> So, before attending, I listened again to this quartet, this time
> the Gabrieli String Quartet interpretation (1979). I thought
> the tempo of the final fugue (last movement) was almost insanely fast.
>
> The next day, I listened to the Guarneri, live. They weren't
> quite as fast as the Gabrieli but much faster than the Budapest.
> (The whole performance + op.127 was great)
>
> In the meantime, I've bought the Guarneri integral (BMG
> remastering in 2003. No indication of original recording dates on
> the box or booklet) Here, they play the fugue even faster than
> the Gabrieli but still with great control, articulation and precision.
>
> The recording times are as follow (fourth movement : Allegro molto)
>
> Budapest 1961 : 6 min. 36 sec.
> Gabrieli 1979 : 5 min. 46 sec.
> Guarneri (?) : 5 min. 25 sec.
>
> It seems hardly possible, but has anybody ever played it faster?
> And without ruining it in the process? (The Guarneri is very
> musical throughout) Can somebody look up the timings
> for some recordings of the Alban Berg, Julliard, Hagen, etc?
Matthew B. Tepper
be typed in news:8f5bf2a9.04062...@posting.google.com:
> Ok, cutted, but fast!!
>
> The Flonzaly in 1920. To be heared at:
> http://www.geocities.com/composities
Who will give us more transfers of the wonderful Flonzaley Quartet? I've got
both Biddulph set, and the Gabrilowitsch disc on VAIA which contains the
acoustic, abridged Schumann Quintet, but I'm still not satisfied!
Pierre-Normand Houle
"rofke" <78...@angelfire.com> wrote in message news:8f5bf2a9.04062...@posting.google.com...
> Ok, cutted, but fast!!
>
> The Flonzaly in 1920. To be heared at:
> http://www.geocities.com/composities
Thanks! It's not so fast, however. Not that this counts against it in any
way, but it seems a tad slower than the Budapest. So it's the slowest
surveyed so far.
David7Gable
>years.
The recordings by the Guarneri I know best are their Middle and Late Beethoven
boxes, and while the sheer tone of their playing is extraordinarily beautiful,
I never found their approach all that distinctive. Could be these aren't the
best things they ever did.
-david gable
David7Gable
>Perhaps he was the weak link that brought the group down?
Seated at the cello, he's unlikely to have been the quartet member who lost his
temper and tried to strangle another member in rehearsal. Perhaps he was the
stranglee.
-david gable
Alan Cooper
Although I'm a fan of the Guarneri at their best, and I like their RCA
set of the Beethoven Middle Quartets, I would not rate their Beethoven
overall as highly as that of the Juilliard or Hollywood Quartets, not
to mention the extraordinary New Music Quartet 59/3. (I take it that
the Yale Quartet gives us a reasonable idea of what the NMQ's Late
Beethoven would have sounded like.)
The Guarneri excelled in the later Romantic repertoire: Schubert (a
gorgeous "Rosamunde" Quartet), Mendelssohn, Grieg, Dvorak, Smetana.
Another poster praised their Philips recording of Schumann, which I
have not heard. It would be interesting to compare it with the
splendid Schumann recordings by the Juilliard and NMQ.
AC