Berkshire Record Outlet doesn't need your business
av
rather fair size orders over $300 each. I have spent the past 3 weeks,
in my spare time, going through their catalogue #83. I then spent a
total of probably 4 hours, putting the choices I made into their
online ordering system as well as doing different searches for other
things. The total stood at 47 items and about $343. Before I made the
final order, I wanted to decide on one other expensive box set, as
well as check my cash. I left the browser window open during all this
time (opening separate ones as needed for other things).
So, imagine my surprise when, ready to place the order, I found that
window was now saying that my cookies could not be found, and thus my
once full cart was now empty. Not happy in the least, and instructed
to CONTACT BRO if this happened, I did such, telling them, by email,
what I've just written here.
I didn't get an answer throughout the next day, so the morning after
that, I called and had what amounted to a pleasant conversation with
the fellow who answered. But he said that the person who deals with
the web stuff, Steve, was not there that day, and that I should call
back the next day. Meanwhile, that evening I get an email from Steve,
telling me that he has passed the information on to the person who
does the web stuff. (Guess it wasn't Steve after all.) I replied with
more information, and asked if I should call up the next day. I got a
terse reply that the matter had been forwarded.
I waited until Friday afternoon (the next day) when I decided to call.
I asked to speak to whomever does the web stuff. I was told that he
wasn't there, that he is "off site". I told this person that I had so
far placed an email, called, etc. etc. and do they want an order or
not. There was a pause.
"Well why don't you order from someplace else then?"
I couldn't reply; I was shocked by his answer.
"Look. I'm the owner. Let's start over. We have orders coming up the
ass and I don't need your attitude."
I couldn't reply again; I was shocked by his answer.
I then gave him a common expletive and hung up.
I've heard (from posts on this newsgroup) about their attitude before,
and I don't know if this particular story trumps any other, or even,
for that matter surprises anyone. But, damn, I have a unique business
just like them. I make things that no one else in the world makes
(like they have cheap CD's that no one else has). But if a customer
has a problem, and yes, even an attitude, I help them as much as I
possibly can, and as immediately as I possibly can. And frankly I do
my best to do what I can so attitudes, such as they are inevitible
with anyone who is put out too much, are avoided in the first place.
Perhaps he just had a bad childhood and I should take pity?
AV
ulvi
> [Unpleasant experience snipped...]
I am not surprised by their attitude. True, they are not the most
customer-friendly online source, but once you know and accept
this fact they are not that hard to live with. What I would have done
is simply spend the few hours needed to reconstruct my order,
as opposed to many days of frustration you had to go through.
Also, one insurance policy when you are submitting a large order
which takes days to put together is to periodically save your
cart in a file using the "Save As" button on your browser.
This way you can recover quickly if disaster strikes.
--
Ulvi
ulvi.yu...@jpl.nasa.gov
Frank Berger
av wrote:
Your story is not unique, unfortunately. As a survivor of many BRO
orders, if I were to offer some advice in dealing with BRO, it would be to
grovel at all times. For example, you must apologize for stupidly doing
something to make the cart system empty itself of your order; or being too
stupid to understand how to use the ordering system (when in fact it isn't
working right). If you do this, you stand a chance of getting what you
want (attention, service, etc.). But if in any way you try to assert your
basic right as a customer to decent treatment or suggest that their
software or attitude leaves something to be desired, you will find
yourself treated as though you were an avowed member of Al Queida.
BerkRecOut
Bollocks.
You called asking for the programmer.
I told you he worked off site.
You then got on my case with how poor our service was.
I then said I didn't need this attitude but if you calmed yourself down I'd be
willing to help.
The next thing I heard was "F**K You" and the phone banging down on me.
Life's too short to deal with the Andy Vodas of this world.
Joe {Berkshire Record Outlet}
Frank Berger
BerkRecOut wrote:
In other words, the poor service, combined with a lack of respect for the
customer's views about that service (God forbid consideration should be given to
the complaints and improvements made), drove the customer to lose his temper and
say something he shouldn't have.
You have a lot to learn about running a business.
Bob Lombard
<frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
>Your story is not unique, unfortunately. As a survivor of many BRO
>orders, if I were to offer some advice in dealing with BRO, it would be to
>grovel at all times. For example, you must apologize for stupidly doing
>something to make the cart system empty itself of your order; or being too
>stupid to understand how to use the ordering system (when in fact it isn't
>working right). If you do this, you stand a chance of getting what you
>want (attention, service, etc.). But if in any way you try to assert your
>basic right as a customer to decent treatment or suggest that their
>software or attitude leaves something to be desired, you will find
>yourself treated as though you were an avowed member of Al Queida.
I think it's interesting, if not instructive, to speculate
on motives and attitudes, both those of the boss at BRO and
those of his customers. So that these speculations aren't
*completely* vaporous, I make a list of 'particulars' under
_BRO_ and under _customer_, then try to figure out the
significance, or value, of each particular. I won't lay that
out here, but my conclusions are:
Mr. BRO sees the customer side of his job to be filling and
shipping orders. The orders come in response to offerings in
the catalogs and the on-line database, and there are a lot
of them. The operation goes much more smoothly when the
customer can be regarded as an address to which an order can
be shipped. When someone contacts BRO about a screwed up
order (not a screwed up shipment - an order), the operation
hiccups. Someone who ought to be filling an order is
sidetracked to dealing with something that is frequently not
efficiently correctable by BRO; something that the
prospective customer can better fix. The BRO guy makes a
(usually hurried) stab at getting the proto-order back on
track, but... if the caller assumes that he has a 'basic
right' to attention, service, 'decent treatment', well...
time's awasting, and 'decent treatment' works both ways.
My questions have been ignored by BRO on several occasions.
On another occasion, I badly screwed up a small faxed order.
BRO telephoned me and spent several minutes getting the
order straightened out. Go figure.
BL
Bruckner Junkie
If you really want it, you should figure out your cookie problem and
place the order again. I frankly don't understand the issue with
cookies- enable them and you should be fine. If all else fails, write
the order down and send it in via fax or mail. That works, too.
Berkshire does not hold your hand through anything; in my experience,
the people that are most angered by them are those that ask the most
of them.
BJ
Arthur La Porta
What do you expect them to do? If the data was never saved or the
cookie got deleted it ain't coming back. Sure their web site is a bit
flakey, but it is worth the trouble for the selection and low prices.
If you had any sense, you would have broken your purchase into sever
reasonable size orders and/or kept copies of your work as you went
along.
Stephen W. Worth
service. If you want really elaborate shopping cart programs,
search engines or other bells and whistles, shop elsewhere
and pay for that. There is absolutely nothing Berkshire's
technical support people can do if your cookie expires. All
they can do is tell you to reenter your order, or order by
fax. I can't believe you spent that many hours and didn't
jot your choices down on a slip of paper. That isn't the
fault of the website... that is your own fault.
I ordered a few things from Berkshire earlier this week,
including the complete Shostakovich symphony set. I'm eyeing
those Rilling Bach cantatas too. It took me quite a while
to dig through their search engine to find the stuff I was
interested in, but at two to three bucks a disk, the time
was well worth it. I'm looking forward to many hours of
customer satisfaction as soon as my order arrives. I was
very happy with the Schnabel Beethoven Sonata set I got
a month ago... terrific value.
You shouldn't complain and yell at people on the phone when
they are giving you a deal. Just spend a little extra time
on your order and be happy you know about a great resource
that 99% of the record buying public doesn't have a clue
about.
See ya
Steve
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Sheiks & Vamps: 1920's Dance Bands... Cartoony jazz
from the original 78's with a minimum of intrusive
digital manipulation. Download MP3 samples for FREE:
http://www.vintageip.com/records/vipdb1001.html
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Stephen W. Worth
<frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
> > Bollocks.
> > You called asking for the programmer. I told you he worked off site.
> > You then got on my case with how poor our service was. I then said
> > I didn't need this attitude but if you calmed yourself down I'd be
> > willing to help. The next thing I heard was "F**K You" and the phone
> > banging down on me. Joe {Berkshire Record Outlet}
>
> In other words, the poor service, combined with a lack of respect for the
> customer's views about that service drove the customer to lose his temper
> and say something he shouldn't have. You have a lot to learn about running
> a business.
I see absolutely nothing in Joe's account that indicates he did anything
wrong. Customer service people should not have to be subjected to the
abuse brought on by a person's frustration with his computer. That isn't
their job. If the guy is hot under the collar from having a cookie crap
out on him, he should wait until he calms down and think of a way to
deal with it. If the guy wanted to tell Joe over the phone what he wanted,
I'm sure he would have politely taken his order. Copping an attitude
wasn't called for, and that is all Joe pointed out. The reaction this
simple truth brought out proved that the guy had nothing constructive
to say. If it had been me on the line, I wouldn't have waited for the
other guy to hang up. I would have been off the line before he had a
chance. Professionalism goes two ways. Customer service isn't an excuse
to take out your frustrations on the poor schlub on the other end of
the line. If you don't want service, you just want to dish out abuse,
don't call at all.
Matthew B. Tepper
news:bigshot-2203...@206.225.65.141:
Indeed, anybody who doesn't continuously save his work as he goes (whether
it is for business or for pleasure) has chiefly himself to blame if and
when his computer fails and he loses it.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Foot-and-mouth; Charlotte Church
John Thomas
ulvi <ulvi.yu...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
If you use Internet Explorer you can save a record of your cart
contents by clicking "Add to Scrapbook" in your toolbar. Each time you
add to your cart, click it again and you will have an updated record.
Click "Scrapbook" to access it.
Berkshire's cookies supposedly are good for 30 days; I've never had a
problem with my cart as long as I don't accidently delete the broinc
cookie.
--
-Regards,
John Thomas
jwth...@sonic.net
AV
>
> Also, one insurance policy when you are submitting a large order
> which takes days to put together is to periodically save your
> cart in a file using the "Save As" button on your browser.
> This way you can recover quickly if disaster strikes.
I wish now I knew that could be done! I've always thought that carts are
not saveable as files.
Good advice for when I order overseas to Crotchet.
av
vladimir
>Professionalism goes two ways. Customer service isn't an excuse
>to take out your frustrations on the poor schlub on the other end of
>the line. If you don't want service, you just want to dish out abuse,
>don't call at all.
I agree in principle. However, to some extent the taking of abuse appears
to be part of job definition of "customer service." Not that that's right,
but companies that can deal with it will have an advantage. Good training
definitely helps.
Not sure how BRO's contract with their web guy is set up, but it seems
reasonable to offer, maybe right on their site, a way to email such
difficulties directly to him. Though the original poster seems at least
partly to blame for his situation of losing his order, the web guy could
probably have quickly straightened him out, one way or another, if they
could have communicated directly.
So there may be a couple of ways for BRO to improve their service. That may
not be part of their defined mandate as a streamlined bargain outlet; they
undoubtedly realize that another company could see an opportunity in this.
- Phil Caron
Vadim Batitsky
> I waited until Friday afternoon (the next day) when I decided to call.
> I asked to speak to whomever does the web stuff. I was told that he
> wasn't there, that he is "off site". I told this person that I had so
> far placed an email, called, etc. etc. and do they want an order or
> not. There was a pause.
>
> "Well why don't you order from someplace else then?"
> I couldn't reply; I was shocked by his answer.
> "Look. I'm the owner. Let's start over. We have orders coming up the
> ass and I don't need your attitude."
> I couldn't reply again; I was shocked by his answer.
>
> I then gave him a common expletive and hung up.
A shame, indeed. Somehow, I feel that this episode is part of what I'd
call "The East Coast Big City (and its suburubs) Experience Package".
I have never encountered this level of rudeness and general
attitude problems in the west, including LA (where I spent 10 years).
Only when I moved to Philly and then to NYC, did I encounter a truly
neanderthal level of service - from supermarkets (a joke to use that
name for glorified bodegas) to record stores.
(One notable exception from this depressing rule was the 'golden
age' period of Muchnic Stereo's classical CD section in Philly when it
was ran by our beloved r.m.c.r-er Simon who, while excruciatingly
opinionated in matters of recordings, was always unfailingly polite,
even toward those misguided souls who came in looking for Grumeaux'
recording of Bach Violin concerti.)
Vadim.
Norman M. Schwartz
"Arthur La Porta" <al...@cornell.edu> wrote in message
news:3C9BB6D5...@cornell.edu...
>
> What do you expect them to do? If the data was never saved or the
> cookie got deleted it ain't coming back. Sure their web site is a
bit
> flakey, but it is worth the trouble for the selection and low
prices.
> If you had any sense, you would have broken your purchase into sever
> reasonable size orders and/or kept copies of your work as you went
> along.
Flakey? After placing one or more items in your cart, one goes to
"view your cart" and you very easily and quickly see what's in it. You
mean to say items were each successfully added to the cart, were seen
to be there and then at the very end, they all vaporized? I have lost
power to the computer, or purposefully have had to shut it down;
whenever I go back to the BRO site all my selections have always been
there and could be seen in my cart. The only way I have to empty my
cart is to select the view cart option and then "0" out items I no
longer want, or should I go to view and select files in internet
options, I can then delete all my cookies- and this of course empties
my cart as well.
AV
counter posts (as well as supportive posts - thank you Frank), but one
thing is necessary. Not to jump to assumptions.
This "loss of cookies" had nothing whatsoever to do with any crash or
problem on my computer. NOR did it have anything to do with them
expiring. The cart was only a week old, at most. My cookies were
certainly enabled, else I wouldn't have had a cart over the past few
days like I did. I have never had this sort of problem before on any
other site, and the fact that the notice about the loss came from
Berkshire's site says that this happens and that they are aware about
it, and to call them. Just the same, and this is important people, I
made no jumpings of conclusion as to why or how it happened, but I knew
it had nothing to do with my computer per se.
When I first emailed, although I said I wasn't happy about it, it was
not written in an angry tone, other than to tell them what I had been
doing up to the point of the loss of cookies. Let me repeat that: it was
not written in an angry tone. It was written BECAUSE BRO TELLS YOU TO
CONTACT THEM. I did add the fact that I had been planning on spending
$343, not so much to get in the front of any line, but rather to at
least show I was a serious customer, and not worried about the loss of a
cart with a few dollars worth of CD's.
It would behoove BRO either to remove this instruction to call them or,
if they don't like worried people calling them, who feel that they are
left in the dark, wondering whether they should start over or wait
INDEFINITELY, then they might at least consider adding information as to
what BRO can and cannot do in such a situation.
When I called today, I was frustrated and feel no need to apologize for
that. I was only following up as I had been previously told to CALL the
web person. And with the coming weekend, wanting to fill the order over
the weekend, with both the hope of regenerating the cart, and the fear
that the longer I waited the more likely that any data on the Berkshire
server would be lost, I decided not to wait for an email answer.
So, when the first words out of this owner's mouth was "why don't you go
elsewhere", frankly all the gossip I've read on this newsgroup about the
company seemed confirmed. It has not been me doing the gossip about this
company, and despite the gossip I have still spent a fair amount of
money with them. Not as much as Mr. Tepper no doubt, but certainly well
above an average order. Meaning simply, I trusted that down deep, no
matter what rough edges they might have, they still want to hold onto
their customers.
Obviously now that isn't true.
I've gotten frustrated at other situations before - who hasn't? But my
expressions of this frustration to this person were not abusive. They
were what they were: frustration at the delay in understanding what
happened and at getting a simple answer to my question: could my data be
retrieved or not? If Berkshire tells a person to call them if they've
lost their cart, then it would seem to me logical that they not only
know about such situations, but can at least answer this question from
the start. Given that 3 email exchanges and one previous phone call
failed to give me this understanding, I was frustrated and I don't think
I owe any apology for that.
As for my "getting on (his) case as to how poor the service was" you can
read it how you wish. I was expressing the fact that I had been left in
the dark for these past 3 days, and asked if they wanted by business or
not. So when he replied "we've got orders coming up the ass", rather
than, oh, let's see, something like, "I see you've been run around,
let's see if I can answer your questions" I did lose my nearly lost
temper, curse and hang up.
Should I have save a file. Sure. Does my lack of doing that absolve BRO
from acting responsively to their customers? Absolutely not.
Problems with computers are to be expected. And if BRO expects, like
other online companies, to benefit from the relative comfort of having
orders arrive in a seeming effortless stream, (or, as Mr. BRO glibly
puts it arrive "up their ass") they should be ready willing and able to
help when a problem inevitably arises. The only real question the
armchair critics should be asking would be how long should I have been
expected to wait, let alone be told when I can expect an answer.
But then, even asking them that would be demanding something from them
as well.
----
Let me add one more thing: Going onto their site just now, I noticed a
special page about "the cookie problem". This is obviously a recurrent
problem they have. Fine. Then that begs the question I've had all week:
why can't anyone just tell me what's going on? Instead, it was "call
Steve" or "we've forwarded your email". But I guess I'm not suppose to
apologize that I didn't see this "cookie warning" page.
I just tried clearing my cache, as instructed there, but nothing
reappears. Not that I want to do any more shopping at this point.
av
AV
Though the original poster seems at least
> partly to blame for his situation of losing his order, the web guy could
> probably have quickly straightened him out, one way or another, if they
> could have communicated directly.
Please tell me how I was responsible for the problem. PLEASE. I beg you.
av
Marc Perman
"Vadim Batitsky" <vbat...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:86b5196a.02032...@posting.google.com...
> A shame, indeed. Somehow, I feel that this episode is part of
what I'd
> call "The East Coast Big City (and its suburubs) Experience
Package".
> I have never encountered this level of rudeness and general
> attitude problems in the west, including LA (where I spent 10
years).
> Only when I moved to Philly and then to NYC, did I encounter a
truly
> neanderthal level of service - from supermarkets (a joke to use
that
> name for glorified bodegas) to record stores.
What big city is Lee, Mass. a suburb of? Pittsfield?
Marc Perman
ulvi
> ulvi wrote:
> >
>
> > Also, one insurance policy when you are submitting a large order
> > which takes days to put together is to periodically save your
> > cart in a file using the "Save As" button on your browser.
> > This way you can recover quickly if disaster strikes.
>
> I wish now I knew that could be done! I've always thought that carts are
> not saveable as files.
You can save it as an html file; but not as a cart (I don't think) unless
you save the specific cookie file encoding your cart. At any rate, once
you have the list of items you wanted to order handy it will take a few
minutes to search for them and reconstruct your cart from scratch.
You can also save a copy of the cookie file (I once did this); but it's
slightly more complicated.
--
Ulvi
ulvi.yu...@jpl.nasa.gov
Tag Gallagher
catague is fabulous. Why be shocked when someone selling you something
for $ 2.99 doesn't give you any more attention that people selling the
same thing for 18.99? I'm grateful they're there!
Any time I've had a problem with them, they solved it immediately. No
fuss.
Lena
> I have been a customer of Berkshire Record Outlet now twice, both with
> rather fair size orders over $300 each.
[rude service at BRO]
I sympathize with you, actually. I've had my BRO cart emptied. I've had
BRO cart filled with random CDs (12 copies of the same incomprehensible
item). And so on... I've taken it more as a temporary annoyance, and
recently things have worked smoothly.
BRO is a great place for discount CDs, obviously, but I can't say I like
Joe's pretty uncouth answer here at all. (Even at its most minimal
level, discourse with a customer shouldn't include the word "bollocks" in
it...)
(Btw, I also save my unordered carts. And if you on no account want
to shop at Berkshire anymore, it's not entirely a monopoly for discount
CDs.)
Lena
Bob Lombard
wrote:
>BRO is a great place for discount CDs, obviously, but I can't say I like
>Joe's pretty uncouth answer here at all. (Even at its most minimal
>level, discourse with a customer shouldn't include the word "bollocks" in
>it...)
>
The 'rude' word in the 'discourse with a customer' came from
'AV'. Joe's 'bollocks' is in a post to the ng.
>(Btw, I also save my unordered carts. And if you on no account want
>to shop at Berkshire anymore, it's not entirely a monopoly for discount
>CDs.)
>
Excellent advice. What those other outfits do with screwed
up orders is another story. I wonder what an email to
Tower-online about an inability to send an order gets for
results.
bl
Heck51
> ass and I don't need your attitude."
> I couldn't reply again; I was shocked by his answer.
>
> I then gave him a common expletive and hung up.
That's why I never order from that place anymore - the attitude is
disgraceful.
There are too many other places of business who want your patronage,
to put up with such insolence.
i had a similar experience a few years back, after, being a customer
for years. Screw them.
Terrymelin
for over 15 years; have never had a problem; it's never taken more than 2 weeks
to get my order; and they always say thank you.
What more could I ask for?
Terry Ellsworth
Kelly P. Clark
> on your order and be happy you know about a great resource
> that 99% of the record buying public doesn't have a clue
> about.
>
more because I became frustrated with the ridiculous waits--my final
order was six weeks--than because of an uncomfortable interaction with
an employee. It was a personal choice and I completely recognize the
service Berkshire offers...but the logic that they are somehow
offering a deal is somewhat erroneous. Berkshire doesn't offer their
service as the byproduct of some great philanthropic impulse, they do
so to make money. Truth be told, I'm more shocked by their behavior
than than what passes for customer service at Tower or Borders. Your
point, that 99% of the record buying public doesn't have a clue about
Berkshire is correct...and of that record buying public, approximately
93% couldn't care less. One would think given their limited appeal,
they would expend more effort meeting the needs of their clientele,
which by any estimate, is alot more finite than for other retail
outlets. Undoubtedly, Berkshire realizes they have much of their
customer base over the proverbial barrel...so be it...I can usually
find what I'm looking for at the elsewhere. For those who continue to
shop there, c'est la vie..they are a great resource and if I didn't
have access to some of the options I do, I would frequent them still.
Tag Gallagher
> I became frustrated with the ridiculous waits--my final
> order was six weeks
Mine for many years have arrived within three to ten days. There was an
interregnum when they seemed to be taking longer.
> but the logic that they are somehow
> offering a deal is somewhat erroneous.
Who's talking about "logic"? It's a fact: they're offering a deal.
> of that record buying public, approximately
> 93% couldn't care less.
And only half of the 7 % that's left are buying classical.
> One would think given their limited appeal,
> they would expend more effort meeting the needs of their clientele,
You mean, as opposed to all those wonderful used/remainder CD stores that
DON'T put their catalog online, that DON'T do mailorder, that DO cost
considerably more?
>
> they have much of their
> customer base over the proverbial barrel.
And WOW what a fabulous barrel it is!
> I can usually
> find what I'm looking for at the elsewhere. For those who continue to
> shop there, c'est la vie..
Yeah. Let 'em eat cake.
Sean Avery
Well, BRO is the CD Nazi. They are what they are. You can't find
better deals on a larger selection. But you better do as you're told
and never speak out of order, or "no soup for you!" "Next!" On a more
serious note, I was at BRO in person a few months ago. The people were
pretty nice in person. The manager (not the owner) said that the owner
is looking to sell the business. The owner would stay on ordering the
CDs. Anyone think they can do a better job? Here's your chance.
Bill Hunt
Berkshire's software does occasionally report that the cookie is
missing. However, on balance their ordering system now works as any
other one I use. I often keep a list of items in my shopping cart for
weeks before ordering.
They had had the problem wih missing cookies for some time. It would
be good if they could fix the problem. My experience has been that I
can start over and then the cookie stays around and the contents of
the cart is retained.
Their search engine is more usable than most others. Much better than
most.
They offer material I can't find elsewhere at bargain prices. Some
items there are the best performances available.
Delivery has been slow but reliable.
On balance, Berkshire is my favorite place to shop on-line.
Good job Berkshire! Thanks.
Bill Hunt
steve w
"Frank Berger" <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote in message
news:3C9BAD9C...@dal.frb.org...
Then again, you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. If
you talk nicely to people and ask for, rather than demand, their help, more
often than not you'll get it.
sw
>
Brendan R. Wehrung
[snip]
>
> "Well why don't you order from someplace else then?"
> I couldn't reply; I was shocked by his answer.
> "Look. I'm the owner. Let's start over. We have orders coming up the
> ass and I don't need your attitude."
> I couldn't reply again; I was shocked by his answer.
>
I was once invited to never shop there again by this selfsame owner
because I tried placing an order from a friend's catalog. Seems he wanted
the fee for sending me one. He's a legend.
You'll be back.
Brendan
Lena
> On 22 Mar 2002 18:34:54 -0800, len...@yahoo.com (Lena)
> wrote:
>
>
> >BRO is a great place for discount CDs, obviously, but I can't say I like
> >Joe's pretty uncouth answer here at all. (Even at its most minimal
> >level, discourse with a customer shouldn't include the word "bollocks" in
> >it...)
> >
> The 'rude' word in the 'discourse with a customer' came from
> 'AV'. Joe's 'bollocks' is in a post to the ng.
I did mean the post to the ng. And never mind the "bollocks"... that
wasn't really it.
Lena
Stephen W. Worth
> This "loss of cookies" had nothing whatsoever to do with any crash or
> problem on my computer. NOR did it have anything to do with them
> expiring. The cart was only a week old, at most.
Expecting a cart to be there after a restart of your computer
is a stretch. When I saw the notice on Berkshire's site saying
that shopping cart contents expire in thirty days or whatever,
I said to myself, "oh, yeah". This technology just isn't that
dependable. In the future, with all shopping cart programs, not
just Berkshire, you should jot the info on paper or cut and
paste the URL of the thing you are ordering into a text file
and save it as you go as a backup. It'll save you a lot of
aggrivation.
> Just the same, and this is important people, I made no
> jumpings of conclusion as to why or how it happened, but I knew
> it had nothing to do with my computer per se.
I guess you just don't understand how these things work...
The cookie's contents are on your computer, not Berkshire's
server. Until you push the button to submit the order, they
don't have a copy of it. There is no way for Berkshire to
restore a cookie file that has gone south on your computer.
All they can do is ask you what you wanted to order and handle
it over the phone. That isn't the answer you were looking for,
but it is the only option in a situation like that. Getting
mad didn't get you anywhere. All it did was raise your blood
pressure.
Stephen W. Worth
kp_c...@hotmail.com (Kelly P. Clark) wrote:
>It was a personal choice and I completely recognize the
> service Berkshire offers...but the logic that they are somehow
> offering a deal is somewhat erroneous.
Well, try to find the complete Schnabel Beethoven Sonata set,
or the complete Shostakovich symphonies for anywhere near
the price of Berkshire. If you find a retailer with the same
or better prices, let me know. I just can't afford to shop
at Tower any more.
AV
>
> You can also save a copy of the cookie file (I once did this); but it's
> slightly more complicated.
You know, I was thinking that myself, after I responded to your first
post.
Most cookies are rather easily identifiable.
But of course, all of this is a hindsight thing. As I mentioned
elsewhere, I have never had or seen a problem such as this. Whether or
not it is unique to BRO's site, I still don't know. But given the fact
that I've never "lost" a cart or had a "missing cookie", other than the
slim chance of a hard drive crash, it's never even crossed my mind to
save something so temporary. Now of course it has.
Thanks
av
AV
>
>
> Then again, you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. If
> you talk nicely to people and ask for, rather than demand, their help, more
> often than not you'll get it.
>
> sw
> >
Yes, of course, but what if the honey doesn't seem to work?
All these responses seem to suggest I lost the cookies, called up BRO
and vehemently cursed out the owner. Nothing could be further from the
truth.
av
AV
AV
Excuse the previous blank post, must've accidentally hit a shortcut key
I wasn't aware of!
Steve, I most certainly DO know how these things work. And do I get
brownie points for being able to tell you in which folder the cookie
files are located on my computer? But the data for the actual contents
of the cart were not on my computer, unless there were some temp files
as such I am not aware of.
No. The issue was simply this: If the cart was lost it was lost. All I
did was to call BRO to find out if they did or did not have EASY access
to this data. If you had listened to my first telephone call I placed to
them, you would have heard a very pleasant sounding individual (me)
talking to a very pleasant sounding individual (it was the order line I
mistakenly called first, not realizing it was separate from any other
information-need line). You would have also heard me say, if you can't
do it you can't do it, but before I start over I would like to know if
you can retrieve the data or not.
Not a biggie. Not a biggie at all. I am simply guilty of getting
frustrated at waiting for an answer to this seemingly simple question. I
just don't feel that expression of frustration warranted the subsequent
behavior/reaction I got from not just an employee, but the owner.
av
Marc Perman
"Lena" <len...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6b33de45.02032...@posting.google.com...
>
> I did mean the post to the ng. And never mind the "bollocks"...
that
> wasn't really it.
rec.music.sex.pistols?
Marc Perman
Martha & Russ Oppenheim
"Brendan R. Wehrung" wrote:
>
>
> I was once invited to never shop there again by this selfsame owner
> because I tried placing an order from a friend's catalog. Seems he wanted
> the fee for sending me one. He's a legend.
>
And how would he know whose catalog you ordered from?
Richard Loeb
LIFE!
"Norman M. Schwartz" <nm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:4MQm8.1027$se.8...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
John Grabowski
> In article <3C9BD8...@sover.net>, AV <a...@sover.net> wrote:
>
>
>>This "loss of cookies" had nothing whatsoever to do with any crash or
>>problem on my computer. NOR did it have anything to do with them
>>expiring. The cart was only a week old, at most.
>>
>
> Expecting a cart to be there after a restart of your computer
> is a stretch. When I saw the notice on Berkshire's site saying
> that shopping cart contents expire in thirty days or whatever,
> I said to myself, "oh, yeah". This technology just isn't that
> dependable. In the future, with all shopping cart programs, not
> just Berkshire, you should jot the info on paper or cut and
> paste the URL of the thing you are ordering into a text file
> and save it as you go as a backup. It'll save you a lot of
> aggrivation.
What I do for Berkshire--and it hasn't failed me yet--is to simply email
the cart to myself. Then when I want to place the order or modify, I
click the link in the mail that takes me back to the cart in my browser
window, and everything's still there.
John
--
Wisdom begins in wonder. --Socrates
vladimir
- p.
Bob Lombard
AV, there was _never_ a copy of your 'cart' on the _hard
drive_ of BRO's server. BRO _can't_ 'restore' a cart that
never became an _order_.
Your address - sover.net - suggests that, by
out-here-in-the-sticks standards, we are neighbors. Care to
discuss (interesting word) the incident via email?
bl
Ramon Khalona
> That's the way the cookie crumbles...
>
> If you really want it, you should figure out your cookie problem and
> place the order again. I frankly don't understand the issue with
> cookies- enable them and you should be fine. If all else fails, write
> the order down and send it in via fax or mail. That works, too.
Exactly. I *never* order through the website. Rather, I copy the info
about the items onto an e-mail and send it to them, asking them
to charge the order to my account on file (you can give them your
credit card info via phone, this way your data never goes through
e-mail). This also gives me a written record of the items I've
ordered, date, etc. Never had a problem.
RK
Bob Lombard
<jg...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>What I do for Berkshire--and it hasn't failed me yet--is to simply email
>the cart to myself. Then when I want to place the order or modify, I
>click the link in the mail that takes me back to the cart in my browser
>window, and everything's still there.
>
That's it! John, you are one clever dude.
bl
Kelly P. Clark
> Well, try to find the complete Schnabel Beethoven Sonata set,
> or the complete Shostakovich symphonies for anywhere near
> the price of Berkshire. If you find a retailer with the same
> or better prices, let me know. I just can't afford to shop
> at Tower any more.
>
Shostakovich symphonies on what, Brilliant Classics--I don't believe
their price is any different from the price I can get from Tower for
the reissue of the set--and I can also live without Schanbel's
Beethoven set. I hit the Academy in NYC, the Tower Outlet, various
local places, the Daedalus catalog/outlet, etc...admittedly, you pick
your poison. I don't disagree that Berkshire offers many titles one
cannot easily find elsewhere...and so, yes, eat all the cake you want.
Their prices are great, selection, in my experience, variable, and
service, dreadful...so be it. I've shopped them recently and if I
located enough items that warranted an order, I'd pull the
trigger...but I haven't.
Rodger Whitlock
<frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
> ...As a survivor of many BRO
> orders, if I were to offer some advice in dealing with BRO, it would be to
> grovel at all times.
Not so. I once wrote them an email regarding a possible
explanation of some of the cookie problems they were having and
got back a quite reasonable response.
--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Matthew B. Tepper
sure that even Outlook Express allows one to do that.
"Richard Loeb" <loe...@comcast.net> wrote in
news:Tx%m8.214841$uv5.18...@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com:
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Foot-and-mouth; Charlotte Church
Michael Weston
Frank Berger <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
> In other words, the poor service, combined with a lack of respect for the
> customer's views about that service (God forbid consideration should be given
> to
> the complaints and improvements made), drove the customer to lose his temper
> and
> say something he shouldn't have.
>
> You have a lot to learn about running a business.
Oh, please. There is no law that says any business must be run any
specific way. Profit is the rule around which all other things are
built, however much anyone thinks good customer service is a "right."
Berkshire has made a choice how to run things, and that is their choice,
their responsibility. If it works for them, more power to them. It may
be shocking that there can be a business in the world that isn't going
to make every effort to kiss your ***, but it is certainly a
possibility. If you want something from them, you must simply do what
is necessary.
So the owner is a bit crusty. Deal with it. Berkshire is is an
absolutely unique ressource- they do a damn good job at what they aim to
do- it is just that customer service is not one of them.
If you can't handle it, you are free- totally free- to deny them your
money. You are also free to try to sway others to your cause. Good
luck- I am not swayed.
Michael Weston
Curtis Croulet
> money. You are also free to try to sway others to your cause. Good
> luck- I am not swayed.
Nor I.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
+33° 27' 59", -117° 05' 53"
Norman M. Schwartz
> So the owner is a bit crusty. Deal with it. Berkshire is is an
> absolutely unique ressource- they do a damn good job at what they
aim to
> do- it is just that customer service is not one of them.
IMO the reasonable customer gets good customer service.
ESH Tooter
Marc Perman >>
Actually Stockbridge.
Tooter
AV
> Like a number of other posters said, you didn't maintain a separate copy.
>
If I knew ahead of time that their cookie system was faulty, unlike
others, I would of course done that. I can only work from prior
experience, and my prior experience has never met with this problem.
Anyway, as I've also said, I was forgiving of the situation from the
start. The problem was the fact that I simply asked their assistance, as
they direct on their site, to know what happened, and if they could
help.
This is not a question of what I did wrong.
av
Matthew B. Tepper
@mb-ch.aol.com:
><< What big city is Lee, Mass. a suburb of? Pittsfield?
>
> Marc Perman >>
>
> Actually Stockbridge.
As in the Housatonic at?
Brendan R. Wehrung
I think I was aksed for a page number and told them that I had a list.
This was before they had a dependable computer system. Now they can tell
down to the last couple of copies if something is still in stock, if you
place your order by phone.
Brendan
Brendan R. Wehrung
> ALLRIGHT ALREADY!!! JEEZ PUT A PERIOD TO THIS NONSENSE AND MOVE ON WITH YOUR
> LIFE!
>
This is the equivalent of a bunch of guys bragging about how they closed
all these bars [stayed until thrown out at closing], and the condition they
were in when they did. I've been known to show up on the last day of a
sale at my local record store and be there until they start turning out
the lights. It's an addiction.
Brendan
av
> >
snip
I hit the Academy in NYC, the Tower Outlet, various
> local places, the Daedalus catalog/outlet, etc...admittedly, you pick
> your poison.
This mention of Daedalus reminds me about my experience with them.
Last year I spent around $175 with them, over 2 or 3 orders. Last year
I spent well over $200 with BRO. These of course are both clearance
outlets.
I once had a odd problem with the Daedalus website, wherein after a
search, I would get hundreds of page results, all being the same. I
emailed the problem, and quickly got an attempt to help me.
At the end of last year, I received a hand-signed note, sincerely
thanking me for the business and including a 10% coupon.
Some would call these sorts of business practises handholding.
I call it good business sense, let alone simply decent.
av
Lena
>> And never mind the "bollocks"...
> rec.music.sex.pistols?
rec.music.classical.recordings.anarchy! :)
Lena
Alan Sweeney
> they are a great resource and if I didn't
> have access to some of the options I do, I would frequent them still.
Care to share what these options you have are? Curiosity compells me
to ask. Thanks.
Alan.
Mark K. Ehlert
news:584c78ab.02032...@posting.google.com:
> This mention of Daedalus reminds me about my experience with
> them.
Is this the Daedalus at <http://www.daedalus-books.com/>?
--
Mark K. Ehlert
To reply via e-mail, X = 3
William D. Kasimer
Stephen W. Worth <big...@spumco.com> wrote in message
news:bigshot-2203...@206.225.65.168...
> In the future, with all shopping cart programs, not
> just Berkshire, you should jot the info on paper or cut and
> paste the URL of the thing you are ordering into a text file
> and save it as you go as a backup. It'll save you a lot of
> aggrivation.
I just print out the cart now and then, so if the cookie crumbles, I can
easily reconstruct.
Bill
--
====================
William D. Kasimer
wkas...@attbi.com
wkas...@quincymc.org
Marc Perman
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:8l6n8.8937$Tk.5...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> esht...@aol.com (ESH Tooter) wrote in
news:20020323153753.24613.00000632
> @mb-ch.aol.com:
>
> ><< What big city is Lee, Mass. a suburb of? Pittsfield?
> >
> > Marc Perman >>
> >
> > Actually Stockbridge.
>
> As in the Housatonic at?
And as in "the Turnpike was frozen from Stockbridge to Boston."
Marc Perman
George Murnu
>
> I have been a customer of Berkshire Record Outlet now twice, both with
> rather fair size orders over $300 each. I have spent the past 3 weeks,
> in my spare time, going through their catalogue #83. I then spent a
> total of probably 4 hours, putting the choices I made into their
> online ordering system as well as doing different searches for other
> things. The total stood at 47 items and about $343. Before I made the
> final order, I wanted to decide on one other expensive box set, as
> well as check my cash. I left the browser window open during all this
> time (opening separate ones as needed for other things).
>
> So, imagine my surprise when, ready to place the order, I found that
> window was now saying that my cookies could not be found, and thus my
> once full cart was now empty. Not happy in the least, and instructed
> to CONTACT BRO if this happened, I did such, telling them, by email,
> what I've just written here.
>
> I didn't get an answer throughout the next day, so the morning after
> that, I called and had what amounted to a pleasant conversation with
> the fellow who answered. But he said that the person who deals with
> the web stuff, Steve, was not there that day, and that I should call
> back the next day. Meanwhile, that evening I get an email from Steve,
> telling me that he has passed the information on to the person who
> does the web stuff. (Guess it wasn't Steve after all.) I replied with
> more information, and asked if I should call up the next day. I got a
> terse reply that the matter had been forwarded.
>
> I waited until Friday afternoon (the next day) when I decided to call.
> I asked to speak to whomever does the web stuff. I was told that he
> wasn't there, that he is "off site". I told this person that I had so
> far placed an email, called, etc. etc. and do they want an order or
> not. There was a pause.
>
> "Well why don't you order from someplace else then?"
> I couldn't reply; I was shocked by his answer.
> "Look. I'm the owner. Let's start over. We have orders coming up the
> ass and I don't need your attitude."
> I couldn't reply again; I was shocked by his answer.
>
> I then gave him a common expletive and hung up.
>
> I've heard (from posts on this newsgroup) about their attitude before,
> and I don't know if this particular story trumps any other, or even,
> for that matter surprises anyone. But, damn, I have a unique business
> just like them. I make things that no one else in the world makes
> (like they have cheap CD's that no one else has). But if a customer
> has a problem, and yes, even an attitude, I help them as much as I
> possibly can, and as immediately as I possibly can. And frankly I do
> my best to do what I can so attitudes, such as they are inevitible
> with anyone who is put out too much, are avoided in the first place.
>
> Perhaps he just had a bad childhood and I should take pity?
>
> AV
Welcome to the club...
Regards,
George
Stephen W. Worth
> But the data for the actual contents
> of the cart were not on my computer, unless there were some temp files
> as such I am not aware of.
Bingo!
> Not a biggie. Not a biggie at all. I am simply guilty of getting
> frustrated at waiting for an answer to this seemingly simple question.
The owner probably doesn't know himself how the shopping cart
system works. He probably pays a freelancer to set it up and
maintain it. He's most likely not going to pay the guy fifty
bucks an hour to tell you that the cookie was lost on your
computer, and not as any fault of the shopping cart program.
All he is going to say is, "What would you like to order?"
> I just don't feel that expression of frustration warranted the
> subsequent behavior/reaction I got from not just an employee,
> but the owner.
Well, you responded with an expletive that evened up the score.
See ya
Steve
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Sheiks & Vamps: 1920's Dance Bands... Cartoony jazz
from the original 78's with a minimum of intrusive
digital manipulation. Download MP3 samples for FREE:
http://www.vintageip.com/records/vipdb1001.html
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Stephen W. Worth
> If I knew ahead of time that their cookie system was faulty
There is nothing wrong with their cookie system. I used it
the other day and it worked fine. But if you notice that
you are losing other files, you might want to do a check
for viruses on your computer. The cookie was lost on your
machine, not theirs. If anything is faulty, that is the
probable culpret.
Margaret Mikulska
"Stephen W. Worth" wrote:
> Expecting a cart to be there after a restart of your computer
> is a stretch. When I saw the notice on Berkshire's site saying
> that shopping cart contents expire in thirty days or whatever,
> I said to myself, "oh, yeah". This technology just isn't that
> dependable.
No, it's not a stretch. As it happens, I power down my PC every night,
and the contents of the cart stay for 30 days through all the reboots.
It's only occasionally, when BRO has problems with cookies, you can't
count on your saved CDs still being there, but that doesn't depend on
reboots.
My observation is that few sites let you store your cart from session to
session anyway.
> In the future, with all shopping cart programs, not
> just Berkshire, you should jot the info on paper
Just use a clay tablet. The jotting-on-paper technology isn't all that
dependable. :-)
> or cut and
> paste the URL of the thing you are ordering into a text file
> and save it as you go as a backup. It'll save you a lot of
> aggrivation.
"Save as" will do. You still have to reenter the items into the cart,
but at least you don't have to remember them.
-Margaret
--
mikulska at silvertone dot princeton dot edu
Margaret Mikulska
Ramon Khalona wrote:
> Exactly. I *never* order through the website. Rather, I copy the info
> about the items onto an e-mail and send it to them, asking them
> to charge the order to my account on file (you can give them your
> credit card info via phone, this way your data never goes through
> e-mail). This also gives me a written record of the items I've
> ordered, date, etc. Never had a problem.
If you order through the website (as I always do), you get a
confirmation via e-mail from them - it's basically the text version of
your cart with additional data. So you do have a written record (if you
print it out). I usually save the cart when I'm done with the order,
just in case.
What I would like them to do is to time-stamp my cart first time I put
items into it. Unless I save the cart during the first session, I never
remember when the 30 days will be over.
Margaret Mikulska
"Stephen W. Worth" wrote:
>
> Berkshire is an *outlet* store. By definition, they are low
> service. If you want really elaborate shopping cart programs,
> search engines or other bells and whistles, shop elsewhere
> and pay for that. [...]
The funny thing is that their search engine is extremely simple and at
the same time extremely efficient. THe only inconvenience it that it
can't tell a string from a substring. (That is, if you enter, say,
"berg", it'll bring all the names beginning and starting with "berg",
not just "berg" by itself. Unless they changed it.) Many elaborate
search engines are overkill; they apparently gratify the programmers'
egos, but are a pain to use.
And I don't see what else I would like in a shopping cart. I can modify
the quantity entered and keep the cart for 30 days. (Well, OK, as I
said, I'd like to know immediately when I started filling my cart.) The
design is sufficient; glitches are another thing.
Margaret Mikulska
"Brendan R. Wehrung" wrote:
>
> "Richard Loeb" (loe...@comcast.net) writes:
> > ALLRIGHT ALREADY!!! JEEZ PUT A PERIOD TO THIS NONSENSE AND MOVE ON WITH YOUR
> > LIFE!
>
> This is the equivalent of a bunch of guys bragging about how they closed
> all these bars [stayed until thrown out at closing], and the condition they
> were in when they did. I've been known to show up on the last day of a
> sale at my local record store and be there until they start turning out
> the lights. It's an addiction.
It's a lifestyle...
Kelly P. Clark
A combination of resources; I visit the Academy in NYC when I visit my
parents, frequent some local bookstores/recordstores in the DC area,
watch the Daedalus catalog, hit the Tower outlet in NYC, though their
selection has declined..and various British options such as Crotchet.
I am entirely cognizant for some collectors, Berkshire is a necessary
rather than a sufficient condition. For me, I can live without them.
I'd say that out of ten visits to their website, one of those visits
yields selections that warrant the effort. So, admittedly, I may be
in the minority...if I couldn't return to the NYC area easily or if I
lived far from a metropolitan area, I'm certain I'd have little choice
but to rely on Berkshire more heavily.
Stephen W. Worth
<miku...@europe.com> wrote:
> No, it's not a stretch. As it happens, I power down my PC every night,
> and the contents of the cart stay for 30 days through all the reboots.
> It's only occasionally, when BRO has problems with cookies, you can't
> count on your saved CDs still being there, but that doesn't depend on
> reboots.
I go to a lot of sites that require cookies on a regular basis.
Every couple of weeks, I find one place or another that doesn't
recognize my cookie any more. It isn't difficult to lose a cookie.
Stephen W. Worth
<miku...@europe.com> wrote:
> The funny thing is that their search engine is extremely simple and at
> the same time extremely efficient. THe only inconvenience it that it
> can't tell a string from a substring.
I thought it was odd that you couldn't order based on any
information in the bottom line of each entry. The note about
the difference in cents pricing helped for searching for
multi-cd sets though.
Matthew B. Tepper
after the beginning of this work, so did not catch the announcement. I
listened to the end (which had me lurking in my car in the parking lot
behind the Koo Koo Roo on Ventura Boulevard) and decided that as far as I
could tell on my car radio, it was a fine performance; not only that, it
sounded as though it was not the "standard" text, but James Sinclair's
large-orchestra edition. That's the edition which was once recorded by
Ormandy/Philadelphia for RCA (coupled with the Harris Symphony #3),
although I first heard it in a live performance by John Mauceri and the
San Francisco Symphony around 1974.
Turned out the radio broadcast was Zinman/Baltimore. It this indeed the
Sinclair edition, or another one? As for the Ormandy, I feel like John
Cleese asking if the cheese shop does in fact have any cheese at all....
"Marc Perman" <mper...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in news:Xban8.63350
$in3.18...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com:
--
Matthew B. Tepper
news:3C9D4413...@europe.com:
> The funny thing is that their search engine is extremely simple and at
> the same time extremely efficient. THe only inconvenience it that it
> can't tell a string from a substring. (That is, if you enter, say,
> "berg", it'll bring all the names beginning and starting with "berg",
> not just "berg" by itself. Unless they changed it.) Many elaborate
> search engines are overkill; they apparently gratify the programmers'
> egos, but are a pain to use.
At least their search engine gets the job done, and returns mostly
straight, easy-to-search-in-my-brower text. Too many sites throw a ton
of junk at you (in an attempt to cross-sell, which with me is generally
futile).
steve w
"AV" <a...@sover.net> wrote in message news:3C9C62...@sover.net...
> steve w wrote:
> >
> >
> > Then again, you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.
If
> > you talk nicely to people and ask for, rather than demand, their help,
more
> > often than not you'll get it.
> >
> > sw
> > >
>
> Yes, of course, but what if the honey doesn't seem to work?
> All these responses seem to suggest I lost the cookies, called up BRO
> and vehemently cursed out the owner. Nothing could be further from the
> truth.
At least you've gotten some good ideas on how to handle your orders. Now,
the ball is in your court. Unfortunately, it seems that you need him more
than he needs you. Good luck.
>
> av
>
>
Frank Berger
Rodger Whitlock wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:50:12 -0600, Frank Berger
> <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
>
> > ...As a survivor of many BRO
> > orders, if I were to offer some advice in dealing with BRO, it would be to
> > grovel at all times.
>
> Not so. I once wrote them an email regarding a possible
> explanation of some of the cookie problems they were having and
> got back a quite reasonable response.
>
> --
> Rodger Whitlock
> Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Ok, then. Only grovel when it's necessary. If you figure out how to tell that
in advance, let us know.
Frank Berger
Michael Weston wrote:
> In article <3C9BAD9C...@dal.frb.org>,
> Frank Berger <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
> > In other words, the poor service, combined with a lack of respect for the
> > customer's views about that service (God forbid consideration should be given
> > to
> > the complaints and improvements made), drove the customer to lose his temper
> > and
> > say something he shouldn't have.
> >
> > You have a lot to learn about running a business.
>
> Oh, please. There is no law that says any business must be run any
> specific way.
No one said there is. But don't you think they could make even MORE money, by
being civil?
> Profit is the rule around which all other things are
> built,
All other things? Why not try saying what you mean.
> however much anyone thinks good customer service is a "right."
I don't think anyone said that, either.
>
> Berkshire has made a choice how to run things, and that is their choice,
> their responsibility.
Obviously. This is not a contribution to the discussion.
> If it works for them, more power to them.
Do you actually like to deal with rude people? Most of us don't.
> It may
> be shocking that there can be a business in the world that isn't going
> to make every effort to kiss your ***, but it is certainly a
> possibility. If you want something from them, you must simply do what
> is necessary.
I already said that, remember?
>
>
> So the owner is a bit crusty. Deal with it.
Does this mean people who don't like it have no right to complain, either to BRO or
in RMCR? And if you didn't mean that, what is the purpose your comment? Perhaps
to hear yourself talk?
> Berkshire is is an
> absolutely unique ressource- they do a damn good job at what they aim to
> do- it is just that customer service is not one of them.
Guess what? It's perfectly possible to choose to do business with them, and
complain about poor service at the same time. One doesn't preclude the other.
>
>
> If you can't handle it, you are free- totally free- to deny them your
> money. You are also free to try to sway others to your cause. Good
> luck- I am not swayed.
>
How many complaints about BRO's service would it take to "sway" you that maybe,
just maybe, they do have a problem with customer relations?
> Michael Weston
Frank Berger
AV wrote:
It doesn't matter what you say or what actually happened. I 've never seen so
many people jump to so many wrong conclusions as in this thread.
Frank Berger
Margaret Mikulska wrote:
Come to think of it, there's no good reason for the cart to expire after 30
days in the first place. Why shouldn't I be able to keep the cart contents
as long as I like? You can on some other sites, such as HMV.
Brendan R. Wehrung
> esht...@aol.com (ESH Tooter) wrote in news:20020323153753.24613.00000632
> @mb-ch.aol.com:
>
>><< What big city is Lee, Mass. a suburb of? Pittsfield?
>>
>> Marc Perman >>
>>
>> Actually Stockbridge.
>
> As in the Housatonic at?
>
Where the shade of Norman Rockwell haunts.
Brendan
Dave Cook
<ck...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
> I was once invited to never shop there again by this selfsame owner
> because I tried placing an order from a friend's catalog. Seems he wanted
> the fee for sending me one. He's a legend.
That's weird given that they have the "Save a tree" checkbox on the
website where you can opt out of a paper catalog. Was this before
they had a website?
Dave Cook
A. Brain
customers, restaurant patrons, etc. can sometimes be difficult, the
age-old rule is that the customer is always right.
It's a matter of proper training. In house "procedures" or "policies"
are not commandments from God. All employees should be given discretion
to depart from standard procedures.
The proper response, regardless of how ballistic the customer has
become, is to ask him or her how best to resolve the problem. And to
apologize for the difficulty even if the problem is the unreasonable
customer.
Look at the bad publicity BRO has from this incident. It's probably not
deserved.
--
A. Brain
Remove NOSPAM for email.
"AV" <a...@sover.net> wrote in message news:3C9C62...@sover.net...
> steve w wrote:
> >
> >
> > Then again, you catch more flies with honey than you do with
vinegar. If
> > you talk nicely to people and ask for, rather than demand, their
help, more
> > often than not you'll get it.
> >
> > sw
> > >
>
> Yes, of course, but what if the honey doesn't seem to work?
> All these responses seem to suggest I lost the cookies, called up BRO
> and vehemently cursed out the owner. Nothing could be further from the
> truth.
>
> av
>
AV
>
> My observation is that few sites let you store your cart from session to
> session anyway.
>
Not true. This is rather common. What is uncommon is this "lost cookie"
problem.
av
AV
> Come to think of it, there's no good reason for the cart to expire after 30
> days in the first place. Why shouldn't I be able to keep the cart contents
> as long as I like? You can on some other sites, such as HMV.
Well, on this I'm willing to side with BRO. (Hear that Joe?) This is
probably a question of server space/traffic, albeit with today's hard
drives, hard to understand how much space a few ASCII character take up.
They could probably hold the carts of 10,000 people in less than a few
megabytes.
My guess is that is how it was originally designed (read: paid for) with
no inclination to redesign (read: pay for again).
av
AV
>
> In article <3C9CEB...@sover.net>, AV <a...@sover.net> wrote:
>
> > If I knew ahead of time that their cookie system was faulty
>
> There is nothing wrong with their cookie system. I used it
> the other day and it worked fine. But if you notice that
> you are losing other files, you might want to do a check
> for viruses on your computer. The cookie was lost on your
> machine, not theirs. If anything is faulty, that is the
> probable culpret.
>
> See ya
> Steve
Steve, with all due respects, the pattern of your posts is that you
speak first and then read my posts second. I have not had this sort of
problem with any other site where cookies are needed. They all remember
the cookies quite well. I have no viruses whatsoever and your mentioning
of such is simply trying to scapegoat rather than come to an
understanding.
You might want to at least first wonder why BRO has the warnings that
they do about this phenoemnon. I'm not saying that they are isolated
with this problem (others here have mentioned they've had it happen to
them elsewhere) but the fact remains, at least in my experience, it is
rare, if not unique.
av
AV
>
> In article <3C9C66...@sover.net>, AV <a...@sover.net> wrote:
>
> > But the data for the actual contents
> > of the cart were not on my computer, unless there were some temp files
> > as such I am not aware of.
>
> Bingo!
>
Not bingo.
Here is the response I receive from a computer programmer I know, after
asking him just where the data resides.
good practise is to maintain all records at the merchant's server and
keep in your cookie tray only some key or identifier which can link to
this database.
I am presently asking him to clarify this some more for me, but it seems
pretty clear to me that CGI scripting does not put any data input into
one's own cache. The cache is for DOWNLOADED material only.
av
AV
> At least you've gotten some good ideas on how to handle your orders. Now,
> the ball is in your court. Unfortunately, it seems that you need him more
> than he needs you. Good luck.
Not in the least. While I recognize that he has very interesting, and
low priced CD's many are found elsewhere. Also, I'm not the type of
collector that cries when he can't have just that very one. I'm quite
happy to go elsewhere. And will.
I'm sorry you are so personally perturbed by my having a problem with
their attitude.
av
AV
>
> a...@sover.net (av) wrote in
> news:584c78ab.02032...@posting.google.com:
>
> > This mention of Daedalus reminds me about my experience with
> > them.
>
> Is this the Daedalus at <http://www.daedalus-books.com/>?
>
Yes where you can veer off to the music section, or just type in
www.daedalus-music.com
Not as large a selection as BRO by any means, and when having same CD
title sometimes slightly more in price, but very professionally run (it
feels like you are among fellow afficianados/intellectuals who actually
love what they do, and listen to/read what they sell). Very quick
turnaround on fulfillment, albeit sent by media mail (just like BRO)
which is a very slight delay.
There's always more listed online than any of their catalogues.
av
Simon Roberts
"Margaret Mikulska" <miku...@europe.com> wrote in message
news:3C9D4413...@europe.com...
>
> The funny thing is that their search engine is extremely simple and at
> the same time extremely efficient. THe only inconvenience it that it
> can't tell a string from a substring. (That is, if you enter, say,
> "berg", it'll bring all the names beginning and starting with "berg",
> not just "berg" by itself. Unless they changed it.) Many elaborate
> search engines are overkill; they apparently gratify the programmers'
> egos, but are a pain to use.
Indeed; what's more, they seem able to spell (cf. A&B). Then there are
such search engines as provided by A&B, fnac, and cdmail.fr (which seems
to keep getting worse, something one might not have thought possible).
>
> And I don't see what else I would like in a shopping cart. I can
modify
> the quantity entered and keep the cart for 30 days. (Well, OK, as I
> said, I'd like to know immediately when I started filling my cart.)
I've used a few sites where the contents of my cart vanish the moment I
leave their site....
Simon (who may just be lucky but has never had any problem with BRO over
some 20 years)
Frank Berger
"A. Brain" wrote:
> I have had no problems with BRO,
I just love it when people who have had no problem with BRO attribute it to
their own stellar behavior and not good luck (I'm not saying you just did
that).
> and while I agree that retail
> customers, restaurant patrons, etc. can sometimes be difficult, the
> age-old rule is that the customer is always right.
>
> It's a matter of proper training.
From whom? In this case, it's clear the owner is setting the tone.
> In house "procedures" or "policies"
> are not commandments from God. All employees should be given discretion
> to depart from standard procedures.
>
> The proper response, regardless of how ballistic the customer has
> become, is to ask him or her how best to resolve the problem. And to
> apologize for the difficulty even if the problem is the unreasonable
> customer.
>
> Look at the bad publicity BRO has from this incident. It's probably not
> deserved.
Huh? Why not? Assuming people have no ulterior motive for trashing BRO,
that fact that there are complaints is justification enough.
Frank Berger
AV wrote:
Which has existed for years (along with the problem of your basket suddenly
being replaced with someone else's), and they have made no serious attempt to
fix the problem, and when you point out the problem you get, this, "That's
tough. If you don't like it take your business elsewhere" attitude.
Frank Berger
AV wrote:
> Frank Berger wrote:
>
> > Come to think of it, there's no good reason for the cart to expire after 30
> > days in the first place. Why shouldn't I be able to keep the cart contents
> > as long as I like? You can on some other sites, such as HMV.
>
> Well, on this I'm willing to side with BRO. (Hear that Joe?) This is
> probably a question of server space/traffic, albeit with today's hard
> drives, hard to understand how much space a few ASCII character take up.
> They could probably hold the carts of 10,000 people in less than a few
> megabytes.
>
Has it been definitively determined whether the cart content is a) in the cookie
file, b) elsewhere on your PC, or c) on their server?
AV
>
> Has it been definitively determined whether the cart content is a) in the cookie
> file, b) elsewhere on your PC, or c) on their server?
>
in the first place!) But I emailed a friend of mine who is a computer
programmer. He said "good practise is to maintain all records at the
merchant's server and keep in your cookie tray only some key or
assumed. But he extends that by saying "it is wide open to whatever
design you like" which I have no idea what that would mean.
As I understand CGI programming, you have all data input go into a file
area that you must specify on your server, else it simply won't work. I
fail to understand how it would end up on your own system. Perhaps
someone else (other than the conjecturing crowd) can explain how this
could be done.
av
Dana Hill
question about an item, and, in spite of my being very polite I was told,
"we have a lot of orders and can't be bothered with this." I said, "thanks
anyway," and never placed an order.
Hey, if they can get away with treating potential customers like crap, then
they have the best job in the world.
However, I put up with crap from nobody, ever.
Sorry you had a bad experience.
Dana Hill
Gainesville, FL
http://www.tinybadpictures.com
http://www.danajohnhill.com
"av" <a...@sover.net> wrote in message
news:584c78ab.02032...@posting.google.com...
> I have been a customer of Berkshire Record Outlet now twice, both with
> rather fair size orders over $300 each. I have spent the past 3 weeks,
> in my spare time, going through their catalogue #83. I then spent a
> total of probably 4 hours, putting the choices I made into their
> online ordering system as well as doing different searches for other
> things. The total stood at 47 items and about $343. Before I made the
> final order, I wanted to decide on one other expensive box set, as
> well as check my cash. I left the browser window open during all this
> time (opening separate ones as needed for other things).
>
> So, imagine my surprise when, ready to place the order, I found that
> window was now saying that my cookies could not be found, and thus my
> once full cart was now empty. Not happy in the least, and instructed
> to CONTACT BRO if this happened, I did such, telling them, by email,
> what I've just written here.
>
> I didn't get an answer throughout the next day, so the morning after
> that, I called and had what amounted to a pleasant conversation with
> the fellow who answered. But he said that the person who deals with
> the web stuff, Steve, was not there that day, and that I should call
> back the next day. Meanwhile, that evening I get an email from Steve,
> telling me that he has passed the information on to the person who
> does the web stuff. (Guess it wasn't Steve after all.) I replied with
> more information, and asked if I should call up the next day. I got a
> terse reply that the matter had been forwarded.
>
> I waited until Friday afternoon (the next day) when I decided to call.
> I asked to speak to whomever does the web stuff. I was told that he
> wasn't there, that he is "off site". I told this person that I had so
> far placed an email, called, etc. etc. and do they want an order or
> not. There was a pause.
>
> "Well why don't you order from someplace else then?"
> I couldn't reply; I was shocked by his answer.
> "Look. I'm the owner. Let's start over. We have orders coming up the
> ass and I don't need your attitude."
> I couldn't reply again; I was shocked by his answer.
>
> I then gave him a common expletive and hung up.
>
> I've heard (from posts on this newsgroup) about their attitude before,
> and I don't know if this particular story trumps any other, or even,
> for that matter surprises anyone. But, damn, I have a unique business
> just like them. I make things that no one else in the world makes
> (like they have cheap CD's that no one else has). But if a customer
> has a problem, and yes, even an attitude, I help them as much as I
> possibly can, and as immediately as I possibly can. And frankly I do
> my best to do what I can so attitudes, such as they are inevitible
> with anyone who is put out too much, are avoided in the first place.
>
> Perhaps he just had a bad childhood and I should take pity?
>
> AV
Michael Weston
have required from them? What if the person really meant "your question
would require sufficient work on our part such that a significant
expense of time and labor would be required. We don't have the means to
offer that to you now, nor do we intend to set a precident by offering
such knowledge to our customers and thereby make it a habit, as it would
exert a prohibitive impact on our ability to make a profit at these
prices."
I seriously doubt that if this was the case that the person on the phone
was eloquent enough to explain this to you on the fly.
The fact of the matter is that one never gets a full picture of any
business- one can only judge based on individual experiences. Your risk
of bad customer service may appear to be high after one bad call like
this. Perhaps you would persistently have questions which they could
not answer, ans so you would not be able to do business with them.
However, I've never had a question about one of the items they stock
that I haven't been able to answer elsewhere- here for instance.
The bottom line is "can you have a relationship with a business that
will not hold your hand at all, and may be rough in the event that you
need something extra?"
But what do I know- I'd probably like the way things work in France.
MW
In article <3c9e3...@corp-news.newsgroups.com>,
D.G. Porter
>
> As it happens, I was driving around today and turned the radio on just
> after the beginning of this work, so did not catch the announcement. I
> listened to the end (which had me lurking in my car in the parking lot
> behind the Koo Koo Roo on Ventura Boulevard) and decided that as far as I
> could tell on my car radio, it was a fine performance; not only that, it
> sounded as though it was not the "standard" text, but James Sinclair's
> large-orchestra edition. That's the edition which was once recorded by
> Ormandy/Philadelphia for RCA (coupled with the Harris Symphony #3),
> although I first heard it in a live performance by John Mauceri and the
> San Francisco Symphony around 1974.
Now, we all do understand what Jim's edition is, right? It's simply a
restoration of the original orchestration to the revised edition that
Ives made for Slonimsky's chamber group.
I hope someday that he records back-to-back both the 1935 "final"
Slonimsky-ensemble edition with the original 1912-14 version. The
ending of Housatonic is much more effective in the original, IMO.
Instead of that extended C# pedal you've had through the entire piece,
you get that big fat Bb chord that you have in the song version.
> Turned out the radio broadcast was Zinman/Baltimore. It this indeed the
> Sinclair edition, or another one? As for the Ormandy, I feel like John
> Cleese asking if the cheese shop does in fact have any cheese at all....
Eh wot???
"In that case, I will have to shoot you." "Righto, sir!"