Haydn (Simon, this one's for you)
Tansal
everything by Haydn (and also Beethoven). I was introduced to Haydn
by Igor Markevitch's recording of The Creation. I don't have any
other works by Haydn, so could you please recommend some essentials,
along with your preferred recordings of them? Thanks a bunch!
-- Tansal
My e-mail address is as follows: the first two letters of my name;
numbers two, three, eight; the at symbol; the initials of new york
university; a period or dot; the first three letters of education.
Deryk Barker
: Hi Simon, I read in an earlier post of your's that you liked most
: everything by Haydn (and also Beethoven). I was introduced to Haydn
: by Igor Markevitch's recording of The Creation. I don't have any
: other works by Haydn, so could you please recommend some essentials,
: along with your preferred recordings of them? Thanks a bunch!
I'm going to but in, partly because I love haydn too, partly because
Simon and I have (disturbingly?) similar tastes.
If you particularly enjoy The Creation you should probably search out
The Seasons, but to be honest I don't care greatly for either of them.
However, the late Masses and in particularly the Nelson Mass (either
Willcocks on Decca/Argo for non-HIP or Pinnock on Archiv HIP) are
wonderful and contain some of his greatest music. (H C Robbins-Landon
makes a case for the Nelson Mass being Haydn's greatest single
composition).
The symphonies are also fertile ground for exploration; don't be put
off by the fact that there are so many, becuase very few of them are
less than very good and a remarkable number of them are great.
Among many favourite performances I'd have to single out
Furtwaengler's account of No.88 and Mogen's Woldike's Vanguard
recording of the last 6 (99-104), made in the mid-50s and never
bested.
The string quartets, ah where to begin with the quartets? From Op.20
(Sun) onwards it's really a long stream of masterpieces. I particulary
like Op.50 (Tokyo Quyartet on DG) and Op.76 (Takacs on Hungaroton).
Then there are the piano sonatas (John McCabe on Decca/London or Jando
on Naxos), the piano trios, the cello concertos,....
Over to you Simon.
--
|Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept. | Music does not have to be understood|
|Camosun College, Victoria, BC, Canada| It has to be listened to. |
|email: dba...@camosun.bc.ca | |
|phone: +1 250 370 4452 | Hermann Scherchen. |
Mario Taboada
Weber...). Start anywhere. The quartets, piano trios, and many of the
piano sonatas are now available in very good to great performances. The
best-known symphonies, too, are available in great performances by
Jochum, Szell, Solomon, Davis, and others, and Dorati recorded them all,
a considerable achievement. The masses (as Deryk noted) are fantastic.
The baryton trios are the best music for relaxation ever composed. And
so on. Stay with Papa, it's nourishment for the soul and the intellect,
the best kind of musical experience.
Regards,
MT
Alan Cooper
>The string quartets, ah where to begin with the quartets? From Op.20
>(Sun) onwards it's really a long stream of masterpieces. I particulary
>like Op.50 (Tokyo Quyartet on DG) and Op.76 (Takacs on Hungaroton).
>
Surely you meant "Tatrai" rather than the "Takacs". The Tatrai op. 76
(also their opp. 17 and 20) and the Tokyo op. 50 are classics, and I
would put the Griller Quartet 71/74 in the same class. But even so,
"where to begin" is with the Pro Arte Quartet recordings on Testament.
That way one samples the quartets of all periods in superlative
performances.
AC
Deryk Barker
: dba...@camosun.bc.nospam.ca (Deryk Barker) wrote:
:
: >The string quartets, ah where to begin with the quartets? From Op.20
: >(Sun) onwards it's really a long stream of masterpieces. I particulary
: >like Op.50 (Tokyo Quyartet on DG) and Op.76 (Takacs on Hungaroton).
: >
: Surely you meant "Tatrai" rather than the "Takacs". The Tatrai op. 76
My brain thought "Tatrai" my fingers evidently rebelled....
: (also their opp. 17 and 20) and the Tokyo op. 50 are classics, and I
: would put the Griller Quartet 71/74 in the same class. But even so,
: "where to begin" is with the Pro Arte Quartet recordings on Testament.
: That way one samples the quartets of all periods in superlative
: performances.
I hesitated to mention them because of the sound. Oh, I know, I know......
Simon Roberts
: Hi Simon, I read in an earlier post of your's that you liked most
: everything by Haydn (and also Beethoven). I was introduced to Haydn
: by Igor Markevitch's recording of The Creation. I don't have any
: other works by Haydn, so could you please recommend some essentials,
: along with your preferred recordings of them? Thanks a bunch!
Gee, that's easy.... I'm such a Haydn nut that I have a hard time
deciding what constitutes "essentials"; what's more, the best performances
aren't always of the "essentials" (there's no recording of the Creation
that's as comparably good as, say, Blum's recording of symphony 60, which
is so good it becomes for me an essential (perhaps it should be anyway)).
I suppose it would help if I knew whether you were pro or con HIP, but
here are some thoughts.
Piano concerto 11: Argerich (either recording)
Cello concerti: Wispelwey/Channel Classics (HIP) or Schiff/Marriner (not
HIP)
Trumpet Concerto: Friedrich/Capriccio (HIP) or Marsalis or Balmain
(not-HIP)
Symphonies: This is sketchy because there are so many of them in such a
range of styles (both the music and performances of it) that this could go
on all night (you may want to check an earlier thread on this subject).
Anyway, Bruno Weil's Sturm und Drang series on Sony, Solomons' 45/48
(available as a cut out via Berkshire or maybe even still at Tower),
Pinnock's 53, Harnoncourt's 45/60 (Weil and Solomons offer fast, hyper,
tense first movements in 45, Harnoncourt's is slower and darker); 60
Blum/Vanguard, 82-84 Goodman/Hyperion, 86/88 Brueggen, 92/99 Berglund, 92
etc. Rosbaud/DG (mono, but....), 96 Hogwood, 101/103 and 100/104 Brueggen,
103/104 Kuijken (but none of the others in that series), Jochum's 4 from
Dresden on Berlin Classics (in preference to his DG box). Three twofers
from Philips to consider: Marriner's Paris Symphonies and Davis's London.
Some of the best are stuck in boxes that aren't uniformly desirable, e.g.
Bernstein 97 and 102, Klemperer's 102 (perhaps the best performance of
perhaps his best symphony).
Seven last words: Harnoncourt (choral version) Savall (orchestral version)
Mosaiques or Kuijken (qt version) Immerseel (piano version). These are
all HIP.
Quartets op. 20: Mosaiques (HIP) or Hagen (non-HIP)
op. 33: Apponyi Qt (HIP; and, at the risk of sounding like a
stuck record, for my money the most exhilarating recording of any
classical-period quartets ever)
op. 50: Nomos Qt (non-HIP but HIP influenced)
op. 54/55 Lindsays by default?
op. 64: Festetics (HIP)
op. 71/74: Festetics (HIP - cheap via Berkshire) or Griller
(non-HIP, no repeats; one of the great chamber music recordings)
op. 76: Kuijken (HIP) or Carmina (non-HIP) -- both Denon, by odd
coincidence
op. 77: Mosaiques
Piano Trios: Start with the disc on Sony of the last 5 or so trios played
by Levin and co. (HIP)
Piano Sonatas: Staier's three discs on Deutsche Harmonia Mundi (HIP),
Gould's of the last 6, Jando's vol 1 (not the rest), Piazzini's five on
Arte Nova, Pogorelich's disc on DG, Bunin's 23 (MK via Berkshire and as a
Tower cut-out), Catherine Collard's three discs on Lyrinx (usually to be
found among cut-outs) -- among many others....
Seasons: Gardiner or Boehm
Creation: ? Damned if I know. I would probably pick Bernstein 1 (coarse
and earthy and very characterful/exciting), Corboz for Marshall's
incomparable singing of the soprano arias in parts 1 and 2....
St. Cecilia Mass: Guglhoer/Calig (honest)
Late masses: Perhaps the place to start with this absurdly neglected music
(God knows how many recordings of Mozart's vastly inferior Coronation mass
to choose from -- Grrrr) is Weil's disc containing the Nelson and Theresa
Masses; or Pinnock's two separate discs containing same; Hickox's
Harmoniemesse by default (not bad, but could be better), or perhaps
Bernstein's rather over the top performance on Sony; or you may just want
to spring for the London box of the whole lot -- they're quite good, if
not good enough in any of them.
Stabat Mater: Harnoncourt
Songs: Auger, Shirai, perhaps.
I wouldn't bother with his operas at this stage; if you want to try one,
get Orfeo on Oiseau Lyre; one of his better ones, better performed than
most.
Since the foregoing is simultaneously too much and not enough, I think
I'll stop. Feel free to ask more specific questions....
Simon
MRPERMAN
Agreed enthusiastically. I picked up the slimly repackaged piano trios with
the Beaux Arts on Philips and I am amazed, as a long-time Papa enthusiast, to
not have discovered this wonderful music before.
Marc Perman
>Regards,
>
>MT
P.S. Any relation to "MTT"?
Tansal
>The Tatrai op. 76 (also their opp. 17 and 20) and the Tokyo op. 50 are
>classics, and I would put the Griller Quartet 71/74 in the same class. But
>even so, "where to begin" is with the Pro Arte Quartet recordings on
>Testament. That way one samples the quartets of all periods in superlative
>performances.
dba...@camosun.bc.nospam.ca (Deryk Barker) wrote:
>I hesitated to mention them because of the sound. Oh, I know, I know......
I should say then that for new works I draw the line at about 1950 in
terms of sound. Anything post-1950 that is in good mono is quite
acceptable to me. Good mono, afterall, is better than crummy stereo.
Also, I've been generally impressed by the sound on Testament discs.
John Wiser
Simon Roberts wrote:
Tansal wrote:
<snip>
>
> Piano concerto 11: Argerich (either recording)
May I suggest? The Angel cutout happens to contain
what I think is about the most nearly perfect performance
of a piano concerto on record: Beethoven's 2nd.....
<snip>
> Quartets op. 20: Mosaiques (HIP) or Hagen (non-HIP)
> op. 33: Apponyi Qt (HIP; and,
> at the risk of sounding like a > stuck record,
A risk we all take, and why I don't post very often
> for my money the most exhilarating recording of any
> classical-period quartets ever)
yes {tik] yes [tik] yes [tik] yes
> op. 54/55 Lindsays by default?
Simon, what are you DOING?! There are times when a
default is a crash.....
I have no other problems with Simon's list,
and neither should Tansal.........
Print it out, me bye, and keep it by you for aye.
bad-tempered john
jic...@frontiernet.net
Simon Roberts
: Simon Roberts wrote:
: Tansal wrote:
: <snip>
: >
: > Piano concerto 11: Argerich (either recording)
: May I suggest? The Angel cutout happens to contain
: what I think is about the most nearly perfect performance
: of a piano concerto on record: Beethoven's 2nd.....
Yes, indeed; I've also seen this on Denon (most recently at Academy at NY
for $15 (they clearly sometimes know what's what); it was also on some
Italian label, wasn't it? Ricordi or some such?
[snip]
:
: > op. 54/55 Lindsays by default?
: Simon, what are you DOING?! There are times when a
: default is a crash.....
Would you be kind enough to suggest a better 54/55? I keep sampling
this and that and don't really like any of what I've heard. (If only
someone had held a gun to the Smithsons' heads and made them finish the
set....)
Simon
Tansal
post on this matter. It may be a problem with my server, I don't
know, but would someone please repost it or e-mail it in order to
preserve bandwidth? Thank you very much.
On 14 Jul 1998 03:33:58 GMT, si...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Simon
Roberts) wrote:
-- Tansal
Johannes Roehl
---snip----
> St. Cecilia Mass: Guglhoer/Calig (honest)
> Late masses: Perhaps the place to start with this absurdly neglected music
> (God knows how many recordings of Mozart's vastly inferior Coronation mass
> to choose from -- Grrrr) is Weil's disc containing the Nelson and Theresa
> Masses; or Pinnock's two separate discs containing same; Hickox's
> Harmoniemesse by default (not bad, but could be better), or perhaps
> Bernstein's rather over the top performance on Sony; or you may just want
> to spring for the London box of the whole lot -- they're quite good, if
> not good enough in any of them.
I have been quite disappointed with the HAydn masses so far; this may be
due to the recordings I have, though. I picked up three recordings with
Marriner and Dresden/Leipzig forces, in particular the Missa in tempore
belli, the Therese and St Bernard and haven't been convinced by the music
at all, although I like Haydns instrumental music a lot and would also
prefer the oratorios to the masses.
I am probably under the bad influence of Ch. Rosen, who claimed that the
Classical style did not really fit church music, with a few exceptions....
But it may still be that I missed the good ones (recordings or pieces)
Johannes
--
Johannes Roehl Books! 'tis a dull and endless strife:
Physik Come, hear the woodland linnet,
Uni Giessen How sweet his music! on my life,
johanne...@physik.uni-giessen.de There's more of wisdom in it.
-W.Wordsworth
Simon Roberts
: I have been quite disappointed with the HAydn masses so far; this may be
: due to the recordings I have, though. I picked up three recordings with
: Marriner and Dresden/Leipzig forces, in particular the Missa in tempore
: belli, the Therese and St Bernard and haven't been convinced by the music
: at all, although I like Haydns instrumental music a lot and would also
: prefer the oratorios to the masses.
: I am probably under the bad influence of Ch. Rosen, who claimed that the
: Classical style did not really fit church music, with a few exceptions....
: But it may still be that I missed the good ones (recordings or pieces)
I can't say if other performances I mentioned would convert you, but at
least try a Nelson Mass, the oddest and perhaps best of the bunch. You
may never like the music; I love it. Marriner's Paukenmesse is pretty
good, I think (if a bit polite), as is his Nelson, but the rest are ruined
for be by the awful soloists (ghastly messes of vibrato from the
sopranos; too bad he couldn't have kept the heavenly Marshall throughout).
As for Rosen, well, we all have our off-days....
Simon
Pierpaolo Penco
> Cello concerti: Wispelwey/Channel Classics (HIP) or Schiff/Marriner (not
> HIP)
Never heard A.Bylsma-Tafelmusik (Deutsche Harmonia Mundi)?
> Anyway, Bruno Weil's Sturm und Drang series on Sony
Yes
> Harnoncourt's 45/60
Even n.6-8, 30, 31, 59, 68, 73...
> 103/104 Kuijken (but none of the others in that series),
I don't agree. Kuijken's 92-98 are good.
> Seven last words: Harnoncourt (choral version) Savall (orchestral version)
> Mosaiques or Kuijken (qt version) Immerseel (piano version).
Yes. I own Harnoncourt, Savall & Mosaiques. The quartet version is the one I
prefer, than the choral and last the orchestral.
> Quartets op. 20: Mosaiques (HIP) or Hagen (non-HIP)
Yes.
> op. 33: Apponyi Qt
Mosaiques, too.
> op. 64: Festetics (HIP)
And the Kodaly Qt. (Naxos)?
> op. 76: Kuijken (HIP) or Carmina (non-HIP) -- both Denon, by odd
> coincidence
Prazak Quartet, (Praga), for n.1-3
> op. 77: Mosaiques
With op.103
> Piano Trios: Start with the disc on Sony of the last 5 or so trios played
> by Levin and co. (HIP)
Beaux Arts Trio (Philips) or Schiff-Shiokawa-Pergamenshikow (Teldec)
> Piano Sonatas: (...)
Brendel (Philips)
> Seasons: Gardiner or Boehm
Gardiner
> Creation: ? Damned if I know.
Harnoncourt, Gruberova, Wiener Symphoniker (Teldec)
> Late masses: Perhaps the place to start with this absurdly neglected music
> (God knows how many recordings of Mozart's vastly inferior Coronation mass
> to choose from -- Grrrr) is Weil's disc containing the Nelson and Theresa
> Masses; or Pinnock's two separate discs containing same; Hickox's
> Harmoniemesse by default (not bad, but could be better), or perhaps
> Bernstein's rather over the top performance on Sony; or you may just want
> to spring for the London box of the whole lot -- they're quite good, if
> not good enough in any of them.
Harnoncourt is going to record maybe all of them
> Stabat Mater: Harnoncourt
Yes
Pierpaolo Penco
---------------------------------------
AREA Science Park
Padriciano, 99 - 34012 Trieste (Italy)
Tel.: (+39) 040 3755280
E-mail: <pierpao...@area.trieste.it>
Internet: <http://www.area.trieste.it>
Simon Roberts
: Simon Roberts wrote:
: > Cello concerti: Wispelwey/Channel Classics (HIP) or Schiff/Marriner (not
: > HIP)
: Never heard A.Bylsma-Tafelmusik (Deutsche Harmonia Mundi)?
That's my second choice -- I'm a bit bothered by the fact that he can't
quite keep up with the manic tempo he chooses in the last movement of #1
and by his occasional tuning problems.
: > Anyway, Bruno Weil's Sturm und Drang series on Sony
: Yes
: > Harnoncourt's 45/60
: Even n.6-8, 30, 31, 59, 68, 73...
Sure, especially 31
: > Late masses: Perhaps the place to start with this absurdly neglected music
: > (God knows how many recordings of Mozart's vastly inferior Coronation mass
: > to choose from -- Grrrr) is Weil's disc containing the Nelson and Theresa
: > Masses; or Pinnock's two separate discs containing same; Hickox's
: > Harmoniemesse by default (not bad, but could be better), or perhaps
: > Bernstein's rather over the top performance on Sony; or you may just want
: > to spring for the London box of the whole lot -- they're quite good, if
: > not good enough in any of them.
: Harnoncourt is going to record maybe all of them
I hope you're right -- though I found his Mass in Time of War oddly
understated. I've also heard that Gardiner will record them all (and that
Weil will finish his cycle).
Simon
Deryk Barker
: Johannes Roehl (s6...@mailserv.uni-giessen.de) wrote:
:
: : I have been quite disappointed with the HAydn masses so far; this may be
: : due to the recordings I have, though. I picked up three recordings with
: : Marriner and Dresden/Leipzig forces, in particular the Missa in tempore
: : belli, the Therese and St Bernard and haven't been convinced by the music
: : at all, although I like Haydns instrumental music a lot and would also
: : prefer the oratorios to the masses.
: : I am probably under the bad influence of Ch. Rosen, who claimed that the
: : Classical style did not really fit church music, with a few exceptions....
: : But it may still be that I missed the good ones (recordings or pieces)
:
: I can't say if other performances I mentioned would convert you, but at
: least try a Nelson Mass, the oddest and perhaps best of the bunch. You
: may never like the music; I love it.
Me too, much more than the others, fine though they are. My vade mecum
to this was the Willcocks recording (actually I lie, it was singing in
the Mass at the age of 16, but I digress...) which for me still sounds
very well.
The best HIP performance is the Pinnock on Archiv. Although the Weil
on Sony is more generously coupled, I feel it is a less well-reaslied
performance.
John Wiser
Simon Roberts <si...@dept.english.upenn.edu> wrote in article
<6oejj6$r73$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
> John Wiser (jic...@frontiernet.com) wrote:
> : Simon Roberts wrote:
> : Tansal wrote:
> : > op. 54/55 Lindsays by default?
>
> : Simon, what are you DOING?! There are times when a
> : default is a crash.....
>
> Would you be kind enough to suggest a better 54/55? I keep sampling
> this and that and don't really like any of what I've heard. (If only
> someone had held a gun to the Smithsons' heads and made them finish the
> set....)
Simon, they DID finish the set, the DHM idiots failed to
include No. 3 in the CD, and never corrected that error.
I bitched intensely about this in my Fanfare notice, but
the only good that came of it was a cassette of the
missing item sent to me by the frustrated Smithsons.
As for gun to the head, the thing must be aimed at
BMG, certifiably headless..
But I still haven't answered your question re opp. 54/55
have I? Endellion for the former (Virgin Classics), Panocha
for the latter (Supraphon). And have we unjustly forgotten the Tatrais?
Anybody's anything has to be better than the loathesome Lindsays,
especially in Haydn..
bad-tempered john
jic...@frontiernet.net
>
David
Actually, what Rosen said is that, for reasons he is able to enumerate, church
music posed difficulties for the three Viennese that other genres did not.
Church music is conservative and depends on un-budge-able conventions, while
sonata style doesn't naturally lend itself to liturgical music. Let us not
forget Haydn's own improbable preference for his brother's church music. Rosen
goes on to demonstrate the senses in which some of the late Haydn masses are
tours de force in overcoming these problems. When you look at Mozart's great C
minor Mass and Requiem, Haydn's Late Masses, and Beethoven's two Masses, though,
you have to admit that there is something oddly problematic with them all when
compared to quartets and symphonies. BTW, Rosen's most extensive discussion of
the Haydn Masses is not in the Classical Style of Sonata Forms but in a NY
Review of Books essay from the mid-70's.
-david gable
Simon Roberts
: Simon, they DID finish the set, the DHM idiots failed to
: include No. 3 in the CD, and never corrected that error.
: I bitched intensely about this in my Fanfare notice, but
: the only good that came of it was a cassette of the
: missing item sent to me by the frustrated Smithsons.
: As for gun to the head, the thing must be aimed at
: BMG, certifiably headless..
How tiresome; but that still leaves op. 55....
: But I still haven't answered your question re opp. 54/55
: have I? Endellion for the former (Virgin Classics), Panocha
: for the latter (Supraphon). And have we unjustly forgotten the Tatrais?
: Anybody's anything has to be better than the loathesome Lindsays,
: especially in Haydn..
At least the Lindsays have some flair; the trouble is trying to listen
though their playing (I recently gave up on their Schubert 887 five
minutes in). Tatrai's too po-faced for me, Endellion's OK, Salomon too
damned earnest. Perhaps I'll try Panocha until the Mosaiques get around
to it (if they do).
Thanks
Simon
Simon Roberts
: Actually, what Rosen said is that, for reasons he is able to enumerate, church
: music posed difficulties for the three Viennese that other genres did not.
: Church music is conservative and depends on un-budge-able conventions, while
: sonata style doesn't naturally lend itself to liturgical music. Let us not
: forget Haydn's own improbable preference for his brother's church music. Rosen
: goes on to demonstrate the senses in which some of the late Haydn masses are
: tours de force in overcoming these problems. When you look at Mozart's great C
: minor Mass and Requiem, Haydn's Late Masses, and Beethoven's two Masses, though,
: you have to admit that there is something oddly problematic with them all when
: compared to quartets and symphonies.
I don't see why we "have" to admit anything of the sort. The only
"problem" I perceive with any of the music in question is that some of it
can seem perversely perky given the words in question (e.g. some of
Mozart's and Haydn's Kyries) -- but that has nothing to do with form.
Simon
kun...@hilltop.ic.edu
Bernstein/NYPO Paris Symphonies (82-87)
Bernstein/NYPO Nelson Mass (No. 9)
Bernstein/NYPO The Creation
Szell/Cleveland Symphonies 93-98
Derek Salomon/L'Estro Harmonico Symphonies 44, 45, 48
Trevor Pinnock/English Concert Symphonies 35, 38
Dorati/Philharmonia Hungarica Symphonies 60, 63, 70
Robert
In article <35A985...@sprintmail.com>,
Mario Taboada <matr...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
> There's no bad music by Haydn, that Prince of Music (as Igor said of
> Weber...). Start anywhere. The quartets, piano trios, and many of the
> piano sonatas are now available in very good to great performances. The
> best-known symphonies, too, are available in great performances by
> Jochum, Szell, Solomon, Davis, and others, and Dorati recorded them all,
> a considerable achievement. The masses (as Deryk noted) are fantastic.
> The baryton trios are the best music for relaxation ever composed. And
> so on. Stay with Papa, it's nourishment for the soul and the intellect,
> the best kind of musical experience.
>
> Regards,
>
> MT
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Martin Rand
<s6...@mailserv.uni-giessen.de> wrote:
>I have been quite disappointed with the HAydn masses so far; this may be
>due to the recordings I have, though. I picked up three recordings with
>Marriner and Dresden/Leipzig forces, in particular the Missa in tempore
>belli, the Therese and St Bernard and haven't been convinced by the music
>at all, although I like Haydns instrumental music a lot and would also
>prefer the oratorios to the masses.
>I am probably under the bad influence of Ch. Rosen, who claimed that the
>Classical style did not really fit church music, with a few exceptions....
>But it may still be that I missed the good ones (recordings or pieces)
>
Haven't listened to the ones you mention, but the Marriner / Leipzig
recordings of the Heligmesse and Nelson mass are *very* sludgy and
best discarded in favour of some of the others recommended in this
thread...
Martin (off-duty)
Johannes Roehl
> Actually, what Rosen said is that, for reasons he is able to enumerate, church
> music posed difficulties for the three Viennese that other genres did not.
> Church music is conservative and depends on un-budge-able conventions, while
> sonata style doesn't naturally lend itself to liturgical music. Let us not
> forget Haydn's own improbable preference for his brother's church music. Rosen
> goes on to demonstrate the senses in which some of the late Haydn masses are
> tours de force in overcoming these problems. When you look at Mozart's great C
> minor Mass and Requiem, Haydn's Late Masses, and Beethoven's two Masses, though,
> you have to admit that there is something oddly problematic with them all when
> the Haydn Masses is not in the Classical Style of Sonata Forms but in a NY
> Review of Books essay from the mid-70's.
I only know the rather short account in The Classical style. He basically
says that Haydn managed to find a solution of the problem you describe
above in the pastoral style of the Oratorios and that Mozart wrote great
pieces of music mostly in a pseudo-baroque style. He thinks the late Haydn
masses are at least uneven and not in the same league as his instrumental
music. But he also says that Beethoven solved the problem of a liturgical
style very convincingly (and I agree)
I always found the C major mass to be one of LVb's most neglected pieces
(IMHO at least as good as any Mozart (except the c minor) or Haydn mass I
have heard...)
Johannes Roehl
> : Actually, what Rosen said is that, for reasons he is able to enumerate, church
> : music posed difficulties for the three Viennese that other genres did not.
> : Church music is conservative and depends on un-budge-able conventions, while
> : sonata style doesn't naturally lend itself to liturgical music. Let us not
> : forget Haydn's own improbable preference for his brother's church music. Rosen
> : goes on to demonstrate the senses in which some of the late Haydn masses are
> : tours de force in overcoming these problems. When you look at Mozart's great C
> : minor Mass and Requiem, Haydn's Late Masses, and Beethoven's two Masses, though,
> : you have to admit that there is something oddly problematic with them all when
> : compared to quartets and symphonies.
>
> "problem" I perceive with any of the music in question is that some of it
> can seem perversely perky given the words in question (e.g. some of
> Mozart's and Haydn's Kyries) -- but that has nothing to do with form.
That's exactly Rosen's point. The problem to write a movement along the
classical sonata style which is devote and majestic at the same time.
(Perfectly combined in the Kyrie of the Missa solemnis)
But of course we can can enjoy the happy Kyries by Haydn....
Simon Roberts
Johannes Roehl (s6...@mailserv.uni-giessen.de) wrote:
: On 15 Jul 1998, Simon Roberts wrote:
: >
: > I don't see why we "have" to admit anything of the sort. The only
: > "problem" I perceive with any of the music in question is that some of it
: > can seem perversely perky given the words in question (e.g. some of
: > Mozart's and Haydn's Kyries) -- but that has nothing to do with form.
: That's exactly Rosen's point. The problem to write a movement along the
: classical sonata style which is devote and majestic at the same time.
: (Perfectly combined in the Kyrie of the Missa solemnis)
: But of course we can can enjoy the happy Kyries by Haydn....
Really? I guess I should read it again. If that's what he says it's
worse than I thought.... Anyway, H.C. Robbins Landon, who knows more
Haydn than anyone, occasionally states that the Nelson Mass is Haydn's
greatest work, and while I suppose one might quibble with that (the
competition is so stiff), I'm never disinclined to agree when listening to
it (no happy Kyrie there; if that's how it ends up sounding there's
something radically wrong with the performance).
Simon
Johannes Roehl
I agree that Rosen is somewhat strict here. He has a very narrow
definition of what he calls "classical sonata style" and most early and
middle works by Haydn, early Mozart and even Beethoven before roughly op.
31 don't qualify.
I have to check out the Nelson mass and will give the three ones I already
have another chance, but then I got a lot of other stuff to listen
to...(just received Haydn 69, 89, 91 on Naxos; the 89 is certainly as good
as the Paris symphonies for me, evn if the church music may not be for
everyone, there is a lot of relatively unknown Haynd as good as the
warhorses)
Matthew B. Tepper
How do people like (or dislike!) Bernstein in the "Paukenmesse" and the
Nelson Mass on Sony (with the Symphony #88 thrown in for some reason)?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/index.htm
My main music page --- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/berlioz.htm
And my science fiction club's home page --- http://www.lasfs.org/
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
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Simon Roberts
: I hesitate to mention this for fear of starting a flame war, but....
: Nelson Mass on Sony (with the Symphony #88 thrown in for some reason)?
I love both of them; my only quibbles (aside I guess from the rather
coarse tone of the choir) in the Nelson Mass are Estes, a singer I can't
stand, and the way Bernstein holds back the choir when all hell lets loose
in the climax of the Kyrie, doubtless to avoid drowning out the soloist
but thereby killing the effect. The Paukenmesse is rather melodramatic,
expecially the thrilling way he treats the drum solos in the Agnus Dei
(this caused much sniffing in Gramophone and Penguin concerning the LP
release), and -- given the circumstances of the recording this is hardly
surprising -- it's not exactly polished, but it works for me. And don't
overlook his other two -- the Theresa Mass and the Harmoniemesse (but do
overlook the dull Philips remake of the Paukenmesse).
Simon
Tansal
>St. Cecilia Mass: Guglhoer/Calig (honest)
What do you think of Jochum's 1959 DG recording with the ... um ...
Choeur et Orchestre Symphonique de la Radio Diffusion Bavaroise, with
Stader, Höffgen, Holm, Greindl, and Nowakowski?
Simon Roberts
: On 14 Jul 1998, Simon Roberts wrote:
: >St. Cecilia Mass: Guglhoer/Calig (honest)
: What do you think of Jochum's 1959 DG recording with the ... um ...
: Choeur et Orchestre Symphonique de la Radio Diffusion Bavaroise, with
: Stader, Höffgen, Holm, Greindl, and Nowakowski?
It's OK, not really more than that. Greindly is ghastly, but the other
soloists are OK, the choir tolerable, the conducting reasonably lively and
stylsish for its time. I much prefer the Calig recording I mentioned (or,
if you don't do HIP, Corboz). But didn't you say you just bought it? If
so, shouldn't you be telling us?
Simon
R. W. Miller
<6oejj6$r73$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
> John Wiser (jic...@frontiernet.com) wrote:
>
>
> : Simon Roberts wrote:
> : Tansal wrote:
> : >
> : > Piano concerto 11: Argerich (either recording)
> : May I suggest? The Angel cutout happens to contain
> : what I think is about the most nearly perfect performance
> : of a piano concerto on record: Beethoven's 2nd.....
>
> Yes, indeed; I've also seen this on Denon (most recently at Academy at NY
> for $15 (they clearly sometimes know what's what); it was also on some
> Italian label, wasn't it? Ricordi or some such?
Exactly. I have the Ricordi issue, pressed in Japan by Denon; bought it
some years ago from Berkshire. Not the most flattering cover photo of
Martha, but in all other respects it's a winner.
Russell