Sibelius 4th Symphony - 'Building a Library' choice

[Kerrison]

Next Saturday morning, the BBC Radio 3's 'CD Review' will have a critic making his 'personal recommendation' of a recording of Sibelius 4. You may like to come up with your own choice and see if it coincides with his.

Incidentally, I seem to recall that B. H. Haggin once dismissed this symphony as full of "empty rhetoric." Does anyone have the full quote, as I don't remember if it was just a throw-away comment or something more substantial, ie: an extended article about the work.

[sunn...@gmail.com]

Colin Davis (Philips) atop.
Supplemented by Vanska-Lahti and Karajan-Philharmonia.

[Andy Evans]

On Monday, March 30, 2015 at 9:43:38 AM UTC+1, sunn...@gmail.com wrote:
> Colin Davis (Philips) atop.
> Supplemented by Vanska-Lahti and Karajan-Philharmonia.

On the limited listening I've done I'd go for Vanska-Lahti. He doesn't overplay the work and by keeping the feeling of space in it he gives it more of a Northern chill, a bit more mystery and suspense.

[Edward A. Cowan]

B. H. Haggin did not care much for the music of Sibelius, calling it "indulgence". (In: _Music on Records: A New Guide to the Music, the Performances, the Recordings_, New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1941, p. 72.) He follows-up by writing: "A hundred years from now, I am aware, the world my hear in the Fourth Symphony [of Sibelius] what [Ernest] Newman hears: 'a convulsive effort on Sibelius' part to build without the least fragment of mortar, bogus or real ... a kind of Cycopean architecture, block being laid on block without any other join than the surfaces of the materials themselves.' But it is also possible that it will hear in these pretentious snorts of the brass, those ominous drum-rolls, those wild cries of the woodwinds, a bogus mortar of stylistic mannerisms with which Sibelius pads out a few thematic fragments into a symphonic movement."

Haggin likes symphonies nos. 7 and 5 rather better. [Myself, I prefer symphonies 1 and 2. --E.A.C.] Haggin rightly praises Beecham's 78rpm set of symphony no. 2 -- I don't know whether Haggin ever heard Beecham's live recording of the same work. That one is a glorious achievement by all the forces concerned. He also mentions favorably some recordings by Leopold Stokowski, a conductor he did not like very much in other repertoire.

Please note that, in my quoting Haggin on this subject, I do not wish to imply, necessarily, that I agree with him. I do not especially enjoy hearing symphony no. 4, which, to my ears, amounts to 30 minutes of some of the dreariest, most dismal music in my experience. Others, it seems, hear that work differently. YMMV. --E.A.C.

[Edward A. Cowan]

A correction to a little "typo" in my previous references to B. H. Haggin's writing about Sibelus: Re: "the world my hear in the Fourth Symphony": make that "may hear". --E.A.C. (Note: It seems the software for this ng does not allow for the editing of already-posted material.)

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 30.03.2015 14:50, Edward A. Cowan wrote:
> I do not especially enjoy hearing symphony no. 4, which, to my ears,
> amounts to 30 minutes of some of the dreariest, most dismal music in
> my experience.

That's encouraging.
I have uncomfortable recollections of the work myself, which I haven't
heard in ages, and this makes me feel like giving it another test, to
see how I hear it today.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[Andy Evans]

This from the Record Guide 1955:

"The 4th symphony is a terse and dangerous piece of music - to be avoided when feeling ill, lonely or depressed..."

Well, that's telling you. If you're brain is killing you, do something safer like walk around in traffic....


Knowing the BBC it'll be Sir Colin Davis first choice, and they'll dig up Beecham and Barbirolli and comment favourably on Alexander Gibson and Sir Simon Rattle. Any more Brits I've forgotten?

[Christopher Webber]

On 30/03/2015 15:16, Andy Evans wrote:
> Knowing the BBC it'll be Sir Colin Davis first choice, and they'll dig up Beecham and Barbirolli and comment favourably on Alexander Gibson and Sir Simon Rattle. Any more Brits I've forgotten?

You clearly don't know the BBC as well as you think. This week Richard
Morrison chose Barenboim's new German orchestra recording of Elgar 2 as
top choice in Building a Library.

Really, haven't we had enough of this snide nonsense about BBC R3? Let's
face it, you're just jealous...

(Personally I'd go for Berglund's Helsinki reading of the 4th).

[Christopher Webber]

On 30/03/2015 13:58, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
>> I do not especially enjoy hearing symphony no. 4, which, to my ears,
>> amounts to 30 minutes of some of the dreariest, most dismal music in
>> my experience.
>
> That's encouraging.

Sibelius described the 4th (famously) as having "nothing of the circus
about it".

So who are the clowns here?

[Bob Harper]

Well, at least it's described as a 'personal recommendation' rather than
a 'best' version. Personally, I like several: Davis (the Boston is, I
think, the best performance, though not the best recording), Berglund (I
have Bournemouth), Barbirolli (when I'm in the mood). There's a
Szell/Cleveland version floating around on Symphonyshare that is pretty
powerful.

Bob Harper

[Gerard]

"Kerrison" wrote in message
news:b94527d5-11a1-4c12...@googlegroups.com...

=================

Are Maazel (Decca) and Karajan (DG) no longer the usual suspects?

BTW that Karajan recording got a new HCDC mastering
(probably an expensive one - the DG issue sound fine to me):

http://classicalcandor.blogspot.nl/2015/03/sibelius-symphony-no-4-hdcd-review.html

[Andy Evans]

> Really, haven't we had enough of this snide nonsense about BBC R3? Let's
> face it, you're just jealous...

Don't trivialise my hate campaign against the BBC. They turned me down for a graduate apprenticeship when I was fresh out of university, forcing me into a life of senseless hedonism as a jazz musician.

Mind, I did later do about 50 appearances on BBC radio and TV so I did get some degree of revenge.

[Christopher Webber]

On 30/03/2015 16:25, Andy Evans wrote:
> Mind, I did later do about 50 appearances on BBC radio and TV so I did get some degree of revenge.

Never mind revenge, Andy. You were saved from a fate worse than death!

[Christopher Webber]

On 30/03/2015 16:10, Gerard wrote:
>
> Are Maazel (Decca) and Karajan (DG) no longer the usual suspects?

Maazel sounded its age (in terms of orchestral style) when I heard it
last: it used to be my favourite, and I imprinted on it. But I confess I
was a little disappointed this time.

Karajan... well, that is just "suspect". No sense of wood and too many
trees.

[Orchman]

On Monday, March 30, 2015 at 3:36:22 AM UTC-4, Kerrison wrote: You may like to come up with your own choice....>>

Bernstein/NYPO
Toscanini/NBC
Maazel/VPO

[Randy Lane]

Segerstam/Helsinki PO (Ondine) has been my fave for a few years now.

[Bozo]

> On 30.03.2015 14:50, Edward A. Cowan wrote:
> > I do not especially enjoy hearing symphony no. 4

>On Monday, March 30, 2015 at 7:58:12 AM UTC-5, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
> I have uncomfortable recollections of the work myself,

Misery loves company ; I thought I was the only rmcr'er who did not rate the 4th highly.

I do agree # 1 seems under-rated , although if I get just one for the desert island, it would probably be Bernstein's 5th with the VPO on DGG.

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 30.03.2015 18:36, Bozo wrote:
>> On 30.03.2015 14:50, Edward A. Cowan wrote:
>>> I do not especially enjoy hearing symphony no. 4
>> On Monday, March 30, 2015 at 7:58:12 AM UTC-5, Lionel Tacchini
>> wrote: I have uncomfortable recollections of the work myself,
>
> Misery loves company ; I thought I was the only rmcr'er who did not
> rate the 4th highly.
>

I did not express any form of rating.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[Herman]

On Monday, March 30, 2015 at 2:50:57 PM UTC+2, Edward A. Cowan wrote:
> B. H. Haggin did not care much for the music of Sibelius, calling it "indulgence".

and why does that even matter?

Haggin was just an arts journalist trying to make a name for himself in a difficult marketplace.

[Alex Brown]

On 30/03/2015 09:43, sunn...@gmail.com wrote:
> Colin Davis (Philips) atop.
> Supplemented by Vanska-Lahti and Karajan-Philharmonia.
>

It's one of those pieces I don't want to listen to too much (> once a
year say). So of course have accumulated too many recording to be sure
they'll all be heard again.

I wanted to like Vanska but thought the slow movement fell ap-a-r-t.

Of Karajan's the last EMI one struck me most. The evolution of what he
"does" with the string sound over his recordings is interesting (though
I appreciate for some this will be a reason to prefer his earlier efforts).

Lately, I enjoyed the Levine/Berlin recording. Maazel/Vienna is special.
I was surprised how much I liked Ashkenazy's spruce, fresh, no-nonsense
recording too, in excellent sound.

So many impressive recordings!



--
- Alex Brown

[John Wiser]

"Herman" <her...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7abee4b6-e158-477c...@googlegroups.com...

.;.and succeeding for trivial reasons.

jdw

[Steven Bornfeld]

On 3/30/2015 11:17 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
>
>> Really, haven't we had enough of this snide nonsense about BBC R3? Let's
>> face it, you're just jealous...
>

> Don't trivialise my hate campaign against the BBC. I failed an interview for a graduate apprenticeship

when I was fresh out of university, which forced me into a life of
penury as a jazz musician.
>

As things are, would you think they would have been less penurious as a
classical musician?
In the U.S. either way you're screwed.
While we're off-topic--I've just been introduced to a marvelous Italian
jazz guitarist named Pasquale Grasso--perhaps he is better known in
Europe--but hard to believe that he will remain poorly known:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgJiWC1sSfM

Steve

[graham]

On 30/03/2015 6:50 AM, Edward A. Cowan wrote:
I do not especially enjoy hearing symphony no. 4, which, to my ears,
amounts to 30 minutes of some of the dreariest, most dismal music in
my experience. Others, it seems, hear that work differently. YMMV. --E.A.C.
>

I thought I was alone in thinking this!
Graham

[Ray Hall]

Berglund/Bournemouth or Maazel/VPO for me.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Ray Hall]

Funny, but I thought it might too much wood for the trees with Karajan's
more homogenised sound.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Terry]

On Monday, 30 March 2015 18:36:22 UTC+11, Kerrison wrote:
> Next Saturday morning, the BBC Radio 3's 'CD Review' will have a critic making his 'personal recommendation' of a recording of Sibelius 4. You may like to come up with your own choice and see if it coincides with his.
>
> Incidentally, I seem to recall that B. H. Haggin once dismissed this symphony as full of "empty rhetoric." Does anyone have the full quote, as I don't remember if it was just a throw-away comment or something more substantial, ie: an extended article about the work.

Plenty of good recordings to choose from. Being the BBC, an English performer is likely to be nominated, so I'd guess Davis. Most likely outsider: Maazel with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra.

[Terry]

Only Anthony Collins, I think.

[Randy Lane]

There's a recent one from Storgards (Finnish) conducting a British orchestra (BBC) on Chandos. Anyone heard it? Competitive?

[chriskh...@gmail.com]

Il giorno martedì 31 marzo 2015 05:07:45 UTC+2, Terry ha scritto:

> > Knowing the BBC it'll be Sir Colin Davis first choice, and they'll dig up Beecham and Barbirolli and comment favourably on Alexander Gibson and Sir Simon Rattle. Any more Brits I've forgotten?
>
> Only Anthony Collins, I think.

Adrian Leaper (Naxos) and a live Sargent on BBC Legends

Chris Howell

[Christopher Webber]

On 31/03/2015 04:06, Terry wrote:
> Being the BBC, an English performer is likely to be nominated

See my previous post on the thread. Not true. Were you listening last
Saturday?

[Christopher Webber]

On 31/03/2015 04:07, Terry wrote:
> Only Anthony Collins, I think.

Still the best, actually, recording quality aside. But that does come
into the equation.

[Christopher Webber]

On 31/03/2015 04:33, Randy Lane wrote:
> There's a recent one from Storgards (Finnish) conducting a British orchestra (BBC) on Chandos. Anyone heard it? Competitive?

Most certainly.

[Gerard]

"Christopher Webber" wrote in message
news:cnv39c...@mid.individual.net...

Were you listening last Saturday?

=================================

The original poster announced this as something for next Saturday.
Or did you hear it already?

[Christopher Webber]

On 31/03/2015 09:59, Gerard wrote:
>
> The original poster announced this as something for next Saturday.
> Or did you hear it already?

Were you reading the thread, Gerard? If you did, you'd see why I
referred an erroneous poster back to *last* Saturday.

[Gerard]

"Christopher Webber" wrote in message

news:cnv7t1...@mid.individual.net...

===================

Yes, I've been reading the thread.
Sorry, but I'm not going to reread all posts to search for what you meant.

[Christopher Webber]

On 31/03/2015 10:37, Gerard wrote:
> Sorry, but I'm not going to reread all posts to search for what you meant.

Well sorry, too; but please do me the courtesy to work out what I'm
referring to before making snide remarks.

[Gerard]

"Christopher Webber" wrote in message

news:cnvggb...@mid.individual.net...

================

I did not see snide remarks in this thread.
Again I don't see what you're referring to.

[Willem Orange]

You never do

[Gerard]

"Willem Orange" wrote in message
news:786bf1db-a748-42f9...@googlegroups.com...

==================

Ah! THERE is one!

[Dave Cook]

On 2015-03-30, Randy Lane <randy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Segerstam/Helsinki PO (Ondine) has been my fave for a few years now.

This is available for "download only" in MP3 or FLAC format from Presto.

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Ondine/ODE10402#download

Dave Cook

[Randy Lane]

The complete symphonies from that cycle are still available in a box:

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Ondine/ODE10752Q

Cheaper still from some Amazon.com Marketplace vendors:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000CQNVSU

[Alli...@nowhere.org]

Tauno Hannikainen

[Alli...@nowhere.org]

oh and Sixten Ehrling

[Brian Burtt]

On Monday, March 30, 2015 at 12:36:22 AM UTC-7, Kerrison wrote:
> Next Saturday morning, the BBC Radio 3's 'CD Review' will have a critic making his 'personal recommendation' of a recording of Sibelius 4. You may like to come up with your own choice and see if it coincides with his.
>
> Incidentally, I seem to recall that B. H. Haggin once dismissed this symphony as full of "empty rhetoric." Does anyone have the full quote, as I don't remember if it was just a throw-away comment or something more substantial, ie: an extended article about the work.

My favorite Sibelius symphony, and one of my favorites overall. Then again, I'm among the gloom-pleas'd.

My favorite performance is from Esa-Pekka Salonen, with the Swedish RSO in the video you can find on YouTube. I wish there were CDs of these performances of the Sibelius symphonies...

Also high on my list is Rozhdestvensky/Moscow RSO.

--Brian

[jrsnfld]

On Wednesday, April 1, 2015 at 3:45:54 PM UTC-7, Alli...@nowhere.org wrote:
> Tauno Hannikainen

I've never had the pleasure of hearing Hannikainen's recording of the 4th. Didn't even know there was one. What label is it on and what's your overall impression? Is this your favorite?

---Jeff

[Frank Berger]

On 4/1/2015 7:51 PM, jrsnfld wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 1, 2015 at 3:45:54 PM UTC-7, Alli...@nowhere.org wrote:
>> Tauno Hannikainen
>
> I've never had the pleasure of hearing Hannikainen's recording of the 4th. Didn't even know there was one.

Me neither. I have Hannikainen in the Karelia Suite, Symphonies 2 & 5
and Tapiola and the Violin Concerto with Spivakovsky.

What label is it on and what's your overall impression? Is this your
favorite?
>
> ---Jeff
>

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

[Frank Berger]

I found a reference to it. USSR SO on Melodiya LP. Probably never on CD?

[Alli...@nowhere.org]

Sibelius Symphony No 4 USSR SO Tauno Hannikainen mp3 only

https://mega.co.nz/#!xRhmFTYJ!SJ--Dyv8O9TECjZ--A4Tbpcvfrfacxc5oKYClefqMNw

[Kerrison]

So which versions feature the tubular bells in the finale, as per the first edition of the score; which ones opt for the glockenspiel, as indicated in the revised reprint; which switch between the two, depending on the 'pp' and 'ff' dynamics; and which, like Bernstein, have both sets of instruments playing at the same time?

[Terry]

On Thursday, 2 April 2015 17:25:01 UTC+11, Alli...@nowhere.org wrote:
> Sibelius Symphony No 4 USSR SO Tauno Hannikainen mp3 only
>
> https://mega.co.nz/#!xRhmFTYJ!SJ--Dyv8O9TECjZ--A4Tbpcvfrfacxc5oKYClefqMNw

No, it's readily available on CD:

http://tinyurl.com/npl7qog

[John Wiser]

"Terry" <afdeba...@gmail.com> wrote

We're on about the FOURTH Symphony. That ain't it.

jdw

[Kerrison]

> We're on about the FOURTH Symphony. That ain't it.
>
> jdw

The BBC's top choice for No. 4 was Sakari Oramo and the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02ng7xk

[Gerard]

"Kerrison" wrote in message
news:50bac07a-1515-4e92...@googlegroups.com...

=====================

Thank heaven ... an English orchestra.

[Andy Evans]

> The BBC's top choice for No. 4 was Sakari Oramo and the City of Birmingham
> Symphony Orchestra ...
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02ng7xk
>
> =====================
>
> Thank heaven ... an English orchestra.

The reviewer was big on English orchestras - played a lot of Bournmouth/Berglund as well. He sounded like a wind player - talked a lot about bassoons, oboes, flutes and clarinets. I imagined that a British conductor would be the hero, but it was the orchestras this time.

[whiskynsplash]

On Thursday, April 2, 2015 at 2:15:09 AM UTC-5, Kerrison wrote:
> So which versions feature the tubular bells in the finale, as per the first edition of the score; which ones opt for the glockenspiel, as indicated in the revised reprint; which switch between the two, depending on the 'pp' and 'ff' dynamics; and which, like Bernstein, have both sets of instruments playing at the same time?

Sibelius definitely wanted glockenspiel. The first edition had glock. which was mistaken for Glocken. Sibelius said that tubular bells sounded "too oriental." Source: Andrew Barnett.

Bernstein the showman as usual, pulled out all the stops and used both Glocken and Glockenspiel in his Columbia recording. The recording should be ruled out for this reason. I absolutely will not tolerate conductors who think they know more than the composer. The recording also has a muddy thick string sound whereas the composer's scoring is almost like chamber music in places.

I like Petri Sakari with the Icelandic Symphony as a modern recording. Karajan's DG recording is also good. Beecham's 1937 recording is special because it was approved by the composer. In the 1930s Georg Schneevoigt recorded No. 6 for the Sibelius Society and also made a live recording of No. 4 but the composer refused to permit its release and the performance remained unpublished for 40 years. The memory rankled with Sibelius and long afterwards he still brought the matter up in a letter to Schneevoigt.

In preparation for the Beecham recording Beecham and Walter Legge consulted Sibelius about various matters of interpretation, and in particular the use of miniature bells rather than tubular bells in the last movement was sanctioned. I believe Sibelius sent him the Schneevoigt recording with annotations as to how the Symphony was to be played.

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 05.04.2015 09:23, whiskynsplash wrote:
> I absolutely will not tolerate conductors who think they know more
> than the composer.

Carpet.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[whiskynsplash]

On Monday, March 30, 2015 at 7:50:57 AM UTC-5, Edward A. Cowan wrote:
> B. H. Haggin did not care much for the music of Sibelius, calling it "indulgence". (In: _Music on Records: A New Guide to the Music, the Performances, the Recordings_, New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1941, p. 72.) He follows-up by writing: "A hundred years from now, I am aware, the world my hear in the Fourth Symphony [of Sibelius] what [Ernest] Newman hears: 'a convulsive effort on Sibelius' part to build without the least fragment of mortar, bogus or real ... a kind of Cycopean architecture, block being laid on block without any other join than the surfaces of the materials themselves.' But it is also possible that it will hear in these pretentious snorts of the brass, those ominous drum-rolls, those wild cries of the woodwinds, a bogus mortar of stylistic mannerisms with which Sibelius pads out a few thematic fragments into a symphonic movement."
>
> Haggin likes symphonies nos. 7 and 5 rather better. [Myself, I prefer symphonies 1 and 2. --E.A.C.] Haggin rightly praises Beecham's 78rpm set of symphony no. 2 -- I don't know whether Haggin ever heard Beecham's live recording of the same work. That one is a glorious achievement by all the forces concerned. He also mentions favorably some recordings by Leopold Stokowski, a conductor he did not like very much in other repertoire.
>
> Please note that, in my quoting Haggin on this subject, I do not wish to imply, necessarily, that I agree with him. I do not especially enjoy hearing symphony no. 4, which, to my ears, amounts to 30 minutes of some of the dreariest, most dismal music in my experience. Others, it seems, hear that work differently. YMMV. --E.A.C.

>
>
> On Monday, March 30, 2015 at 2:36:22 AM UTC-5, Kerrison wrote:
> > Next Saturday morning, the BBC Radio 3's 'CD Review' will have a critic making his 'personal recommendation' of a recording of Sibelius 4. You may like to come up with your own choice and see if it coincides with his.
> >
> > Incidentally, I seem to recall that B. H. Haggin once dismissed this symphony as full of "empty rhetoric." Does anyone have the full quote, as I don't remember if it was just a throw-away comment or something more substantial, ie: an extended article about the work.

I've got a Music&Arts CD 17685 07552 of Toscanini conducting Symphony No. 4 (29 April 1940). The notes say:

"It was many years before Toscanini performed any of Sibelius's symphonies and he was highly selective in his choice. As mentioned, the Fourth was presented in 1931 in a series of four concerts on consecutive evenings. The Second joined his repertoire in 1938; but no others ... of the Seventh he remarked to Haggin in 1947 'I cannot hear any music in this piece.'"

This comment does not augur well for the musical intelligence of Toscanini. After all, he championed such mediocrities as Martucci and Catalini (even naming his formidable daughter (and Horowitz's future wife), Wally after the heroine of Catalini's opera "La Wally".

I'm afraid that his Sibelius Fourth is not to my taste -- it is given the usual Italian Bandmaster treatment, too fast, too driven, loud brass interjections, no "air" between the notes. Also the recording is abysmal with loud crackling noises. The timing is 32.08. The Naxos Icelandic Symphony recording under Sakari that I expressed a preference for takes something like 36 minutes.

[Willem Orange]

No Toscanini's daughter Wally did NOT marry Horowitz - his daughter Wanda became Mrs. Horowitz. Aren't you glad I'm here to correct your errors????

[Terry]

On Tuesday, 31 March 2015 19:13:35 UTC+11, Christopher Webber wrote:
> On 31/03/2015 04:06, Terry wrote:
> > Being the BBC, an English performer is likely to be nominated
>
> See my previous post on the thread. Not true. Were you listening last
> Saturday?

Why was I not surprised? The City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra and Oramo. It's a good version.

[Terry]

On Sunday, 5 April 2015 02:37:58 UTC+10, John Wiser wrote:
> "Terry" wrote

Oops. Sorry.

[jrsnfld]

On Sunday, April 5, 2015 at 1:46:51 AM UTC-7, whiskynsplash wrote:

> This comment does not augur well for the musical intelligence of Toscanini. After all, he championed such mediocrities as Martucci and Catalini (even naming his formidable daughter (and Horowitz's future wife), Wally after the heroine of Catalini's opera "La Wally".
>
> I'm afraid that his Sibelius Fourth is not to my taste -- it is given the usual Italian Bandmaster treatment, too fast, too driven, loud brass interjections, no "air" between the notes. Also the recording is abysmal with loud crackling noises. The timing is 32.08. The Naxos Icelandic Symphony recording under Sakari that I expressed a preference for takes something like 36 minutes.

-----
Schneevoigt's Finnish Radio performance (on YT) is a shade under 35 minutes. I don't know a better interpretation. Meanwhile, Rosbaud is also a great 4th at 38 minutes. I hope those two landmarks indicate that "something like 36 minutes" is a very fuzzy target.

Ormandy's mono recording (also found on YT) is one of the powerful, stylish, and well played of all recordings, and it's under 32 minutes. There are only a few moments where I wish it weren't that quick. Ormandy shows that Toscanini's timing isn't the main reason you don't like his Sibelius.

--Jeff

[Ward Hardman]

On Monday, March 30, 2015 at 10:51:18 PM UTC-7, chriskh...@gmail.com wrote:
> Il giorno martedì 31 marzo 2015 05:07:45 UTC+2, Terry ha scritto:
>
> > > Knowing the BBC it'll be Sir Colin Davis first choice, and they'll dig up Beecham and Barbirolli and comment favourably on Alexander Gibson and Sir Simon Rattle. Any more Brits I've forgotten?
> >
> > Only Anthony Collins, I think.
>
> Adrian Leaper (Naxos) and a live Sargent on BBC Legends
>
> Chris Howell

Don't forget Stokowski, the greatest British conductor of them all! (1932, Philadelphia.} That is, if a non-Brit orchestra isn't a disqualification.

--Ward Hardman

"The older I get, the more I crave and admire competence,
just simple competence, in any field from adultery to zoology."
- H.L. Mencken

[Oscar]

I've been listening to Ashkenazy's 4th with the Philharmonia (1981) and Rattle's with CBSO (1986). The former was one of Kenneth Wilkinson's last recordings made for Decca, and one of very few he made in the digital domain. Not my favorite symphony.

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, March 29, 2015 at 9:36:22 PM UTC-10, Kerrison wrote:
> Next Saturday morning, the BBC Radio 3's 'CD Review' will have a critic making his 'personal recommendation' of a recording of Sibelius 4. You may like to come up with your own choice and see if it coincides with his.
>
> Incidentally, I seem to recall that B. H. Haggin once dismissed this symphony as full of "empty rhetoric." Does anyone have the full quote, as I don't remember if it was just a throw-away comment or something more substantial, ie: an extended article about the work.

According to this recent article:

- Karajan's account of the Fourth Symphony has withstood the test of time as one of the most searching, profound and concentrated performances of this masterpiece.

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/top-10-sibelius-recordings

[raymond....@gmail.com]

Maazel/VPO for the 4th, and Berglund/Bournemouth EMI for the set of 7.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Andy Evans]

Segerstam for Sibelius in general on my system....

[Herman]

I seem to be one of the few who really likes Sibelius Fourth, which I have never heard live, perhaps because it's supposed to be a downer. I have heard Sib2 many times, even though I don't like it.

I love the constant play with the tritone, and the severe minimalism, especially in the largo.

The versions I like best is the Ashkenazy / Philharmonia and the Vanska Minnesota - but that's meaningless because those are just the ones I have (plus a couple others).

[Herman]

The others I have are Berglund Helsinki and Saraste Finnish (live)

[sabi...@gmail.com]

If I had to choose one recording of a Sibelius symphony to take with me to a desert island, it would be Karajan's DG Fourth. I cannot think of a version as bleak, as relentless as this one. I have the sense that Karajan is not rationalizing away any of the darkness in the symphony. It is fearless. Nothing is forced. There is no hierarchy or grandstanding or attempting to sweep the pain under the rug or into abstraction. The first movement is full of monsters that suddenly appear and disappear just as suddenly. The third, unmitigated grief. The last movement is just "There," The subjective sense is that Karajan here doesn't need to figure Sibelius out. The trick is not getting in the way. The two EMI recordings of the symphony do not seem to me as natural, although the one from 1953 must have been astonishing at the time it was recorded.

In the week prior to the BBC Building a Library segment on Op. 63 I was able to listen to seven of the 20 or so recordings I have of the symphony. If one takes into account the biases of the program, I thought the Oramo choice was a good call. (This is not a criticism. There is always a slant. If one does not see it, it is probably because one shares it. It doesn't bother me BAL might favor conductors who have worked in the UK or more recent recordings. However, I more appreciate the program when there is an awareness of the recording history of the work.)

[Frank Berger]

I love Sibelius 4. I think we have different images of "desert island."
Mine is bleak already. Don't need no more bleakness.

[Andrew Clarke]

Now isn't that interesting? Cf these comments back in 2015:

"On Monday, March 30, 2015 at 10:51:18 PM UTC-7, chriskh...@gmail.com wrote:
> Il giorno martedì 31 marzo 2015 05:07:45 UTC+2, Terry ha scritto:
>
> > > Knowing the BBC it'll be Sir Colin Davis first choice, and they'll dig up Beecham and Barbirolli and comment favourably on Alexander Gibson and Sir Simon Rattle. Any more Brits I've forgotten?
> >
> > Only Anthony Collins, I think.
>
> Adrian Leaper (Naxos) and a live Sargent on BBC Legends
>
> Chris Howell

Don't forget Stokowski, the greatest British conductor of them all! (1932, Philadelphia.} That is, if a non-Brit orchestra isn't a disqualification.

--Ward Hardman."

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Ricardo Jimenez]

On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 01:23:45 -0700 (PDT), Herman <her...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>I seem to be one of the few who really likes Sibelius Fourth, which I have never heard live, perhaps because it's supposed to be a downer. I have heard Sib2 many times, even though I don't like it.
>
>I love the constant play with the tritone, and the severe minimalism, especially in the largo.
>
>The versions I like best is the Ashkenazy / Philharmonia and the Vanska Minnesota - but that's meaningless because those are just the ones I have (plus a couple others).

I've heard the fourth many times with many different conductors and
still can't connect with it. It is my least favorite of the 7. Maybe
I need more than tritones and minimalism. :-)

[Mandryka]

I grew up with Maazel's first recording and always loved it more than any other Sibelius symphony, because it's so tense.

Now I only have one recording of this, and as far as I know it's not commercial even. It is exceptional! Rosbaud, Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra, July 1959. That'll do me!

I think I got it from symphonyshare.

[Frank Berger]

The only Sibelius symphony I have with Rosbaud is #6 on ICA with the
Cologne RSO. It's not so good. Too slow, IIRC and the orchestra isn't
very good. Also strangely paired with some Debussy.

[Bozo]

>On Wednesday, March 27, 2019 at 8:47:24 PM UTC-5, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:>
> I've heard the fourth many times with many different conductors and
> still can't connect with it. It is my least favorite of the 7.

Same here. And I do have a recording, as well, 50's Ehrling /Stockholm SO. I do love all the others, my favs probably 1,3,5.

[Mandryka]

Yes I have that one too. The 6th is a hard symphony for me to enjoy, whoever's playing it! However unlike you I don't have a great problem with Rosbaud's tempos there, which I felt gave me the time to appreciate the gestures fully. I won't comment on the orchestra, I'm always pretty deaf to that sort of thing . . . they'll do.

My real disappointment is that, even in Rosbaud's hands, the 6th sounds as old fashioned as Vaughan Williams to me.

[Andrew Clarke]

On Thursday, March 28, 2019 at 1:31:00 AM UTC+11, sabi...@gmail.com wrote:

> In the week prior to the BBC Building a Library segment on Op. 63 I was able to listen to seven of the 20 or so recordings I have of the symphony. If one takes into account the biases of the program, I thought the Oramo choice was a good call. (This is not a criticism. There is always a slant. If one does not see it, it is probably because one shares it. It doesn't bother me BAL might favor conductors who have worked in the UK or more recent recordings. However, I more appreciate the program when there is an awareness of the recording history of the work.)
>

We have just looked at two Brit reviews of Sibelius. In neither of them do British orchestras / conductors / string quartets predominate.

I notice that the terms of the debate have broadened from 'British conductors' to 'conductors who have worked in the UK'. I suppose it depends on what you mean by "worked in the UK". Do you mean conductors like Klemperer or Silvestri whose careers were largely spent in the UK? Or conductors who worked as conductors of e.g. the Royal Liverpool Phil for a few years before moving on? Or conductors who've appeared at the Proms a few times? It must be getting harder and harder to find a leading conductor in recent times who *hasn't* worked in Britain.

Speaking of Silvestri, there was a post in this group here many years ago which argued that the Brits *undervalued* the man because he wasn't born in Britain. One wonders, if the Brits are such terrible xenophobes, why so many 'foreigners' choose to live there, including thousands of Irish nationals?

"There is always a slant. If one does not see it, it is probably because one shares it." I think, with all due respect, that this is dangerous. You're suggesting that anyone who doesn't see the problem is part of the problem. Taken to its extreme this is similar to the attitude of Stalin that anyone who disagreed with his treatment of the Ukrainians or the kulaks was probably infected with reactionary and anti-Soviet thought, and should be treated accordingly.

I should mention that 'The Gramophone' and the BBC are not the only sources of British music criticism. There's the British weeklies as well as the leading newspapers. Are these reviewers all singing from the same sheet? In my experience, the answer is usually no.

My problem with "The Gramophone" incidentally is not that it's biassed. It's because so much of it is guff.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[sabi...@gmail.com]

I was referring to the specific criticism and taste as observed on the BAL segment of Record Review. I was not making any proclamation on how the world operates. (I have lurked here for so long that I have a sense of those posters whose recommendations I can take. Some of the BBC "librarians" are more interesting to me than others.) I will delete the post in a few days along with this clarification.

[Andrew Clarke]

No need to withdraw your post, Sabi: yours were points worth making, and raise some interesting issues. I'm sorry if I overreacted and/or caused offence.

What interests me is that if the Brit bias is demonstrably not there, or is there only spasmodically, why do so many people want to believe that it is? The reasons may or may not be rational of course. It's an issue that could merit a good deal of serious research, for which, sadly, I am uniquely unqualified. But I'd probably start with the big changes in the music industry since the glory days of the big American orchestras and the companies that recorded them.

For instance, if I ever found myself in New York, I may or may not go to Carnegie Hall to hear the NYPO. But I would certainly go and see and hear great American music making like this, and not just because it's cheaper:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuYy-XeAIsA>

Sincerely,

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[graham]

On 2019-03-28 10:30 p.m., Andrew Clarke wrote:

>
> For instance, if I ever found myself in New York, I may or may not go to Carnegie Hall to hear the NYPO. But I would certainly go and see and hear great American music making like this, and not just because it's cheaper:
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuYy-XeAIsA>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra
>

I clicked on this suggestion after looking at the above and found it
more joyful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWK-zbbvKG4

[jserr...@gmail.com]

Sibelius 4
Stokowski/Phila 1932 RCA shellacs

it's also in YT.

[Frank Berger]

Released at least twice on CD - Dell'Arte and Naxos.

[Andrew Clarke]

Why stop there?

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlfrl1JuAt8&list=RD3J4VJsmjw2k&index=4>

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[nmsz...@gmail.com]

I don't see any male dancers there, but the women 'reveal' more.


> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

[Andrew Clarke]

You want male dancers, you got male dancers ...

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38lIfgWIg8o>

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Andrew Clarke]

For more Laetatus sum frolics, see

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-PmDN_0k_8>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgThh7sDgNM>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xq-NrRiQ6k>

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[graham]

Or: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNH7UJXd-w8

[raymond....@gmail.com]

Interesting thread. Fwiw the 4th is perhaps my second fave Sibelius symphony, stripped of the overt romanticism that embodies especially his 1st and 2nd, great as they are.

I've never really connected with the 3rd symphony, despite the invigorating first movement. Where does it go from there I ask myself?

The 7th is his masterpiece, concise and powerful. No messing.

As for his 'pure water' 6th symphony, then the following might help those still not fully appreciative.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2013/nov/26/symphony-guide-sibelius-sixth-tom-service

Actually HvK's 1 and 6 on EMI is a great cd, an excellent 6th coupled to a blazing 1st.

As for the 5th then Barbirolli/Halle was my first exposure to Sibelius, and it still holds up well.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Kerrison]

It's curious that Stokowski performed Sibelius 4 twice for the first time in a pair of concerts on 22/23 April 1932, recording it for RCA on the second day as well as performing it that same evening, programming it again on 4/5 November 1932 but then dropping it from his repertoire altogether. It was another 30 years before he conducted it again, for the last time, also in a pair of concerts with the Philadelphians, on 16 & 20 March 1962. The first concert has been issued in its entirety on Pristine (link below). One wonders how often all those conductors who've recorded the work in their complete Sibelius cycles have also played it in concert, though in Ormandy's case I remember that he never conducted the 3rd Symphony at all!

https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/pasc372

[Andy Evans]

On Saturday, 30 March 2019 04:31:26 UTC, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
Fwiw the 4th is perhaps my second fave Sibelius symphony, stripped of the overt romanticism that embodies especially his 1st and 2nd, great as they are.

Me too. I listen most to 6 and 4. Never listen to 1 and 2. I like 3. 5 has a lovely slow movement, but I find the finale over-heroic. 7 is hugely impressive but I don't love it like 6.

[Gerard]

Op zaterdag 30 maart 2019 07:44:34 UTC+1 schreef Kerrison:

I don't know about Ormandy.
But it is for sure that Karajan never conducted or recorded the 3rd symphony.

[Bozo]

>On Friday, March 29, 2019 at 11:31:26 PM UTC-5, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> Actually HvK's 1 and 6 on EMI is a great cd, an excellent 6th coupled to a blazing 1st.

Agreed.

[Andrew Clarke]

Or

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YY6Iw4afRk>

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
"I'll be in my room alone
Every postmeridian,
I'll just read my diary
And that book by Mr Gideon."

[Bob Harper]

Yes, that Karajan disc of 1 and 6 is special indeed.

Bob Harper

[Bob Harper]

Apparently he claimed that he didn't understand it. Curious.

Bob Harper

[Bob Harper]

Yes. I just downloaded it and listened today. You are right; it is
exceptional, even on a casual listen (I wasn't able to give it full
attention, but will do so later).

Bob Harper

[Mandryka]

Someone on another forum (GMG) put me on to Osmo Vänskä‘s 4th, which I’m enjoying very much.

[Andy Evans]

> Yes, that Karajan disc of 1 and 6 is special indeed.
>
> Bob Harper

Have you heard Karajan's Valse Triste? Deliciously decadent and slinky, almost Kurt Weill.