Hyperion CD-R??

[Jonathan Ben Schragadove]

Was surprised when I opened a Hyperion disc purchased at Berkshire Record Outlet and it was a CD-R. First time that's happened. It was factory-sealed (no saran wrap), and the booklet looked original on glossy paper (not laser printed). Is Hyperion keeping older titles "in print" these days by burning CD-R's?

[Frank Lekens]

Op 12-1-2022 om 06:51 schreef Jonathan Ben Schragadove:

> Was surprised when I opened a Hyperion disc purchased at Berkshire Record Outlet and it was a CD-R. First time that's happened. It was factory-sealed (no saran wrap), and the booklet looked original on glossy paper (not laser printed). Is Hyperion keeping older titles "in print" these days by burning CD-R's?

https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/pages/archive-service.asp

--
Frank Lekens

http://fmlekens.home.xs4all.nl/
https://franklekens.blogspot.nl/

[JohnGavin]

I don’t know if this is related, but if your playback equipment has a title / track name display, very often with classical recordings (I’m talking at least half the time) the names are all wrong - and they are always names of pop or rock songs. This does frequently happen on Hyperions. I’ve always wondered what was going on with this.

By the way, this is related to the way that the Joyce Hatto scam was exposed. Truthful readouts (with the real performers’ names).

[Jerry]

On Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 12:51:50 AM UTC-5, Jonathan Ben Schragadove wrote:
> Was surprised when I opened a Hyperion disc purchased at Berkshire Record Outlet and it was a CD-R. First time that's happened. It was factory-sealed (no saran wrap), and the booklet looked original on glossy paper (not laser printed). Is Hyperion keeping older titles "in print" these days by burning CD-R's?

A disturbing trend it’s sad to say. I’ve encountered a Lyrita CD-R and have noticed that
an Alto reissue of a Regis set is also on CD-R. It certainly makes “dollars and cents” sense
from the manufacturers’ perspective to minimize costs for short production runs,
but my collector’s perspective is that these are now second-class products that,
depending on one’s age, will not outlive their owners.

I have written to Gramophone pleading that they should distinguish in their
reviews between RedBook CDs and CD-Rs (e.g. Heritage and Pristine, for
example), but they have failed to take me up on that. I do not mean to
suggest that these CD-Rs are sonically inferior. They’re not and neither
Is their presentation. It’s their longevity that I question.

[Frank Berger]

On 1/12/2022 9:20 AM, Jerry wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 12:51:50 AM UTC-5, Jonathan Ben Schragadove wrote:
>> Was surprised when I opened a Hyperion disc purchased at Berkshire Record Outlet and it was a CD-R. First time that's happened. It was factory-sealed (no saran wrap), and the booklet looked original on glossy paper (not laser printed). Is Hyperion keeping older titles "in print" these days by burning CD-R's?
> A disturbing trend it’s sad to say. I’ve encountered a Lyrita CD-R and have noticed that
> an Alto reissue of a Regis set is also on CD-R. It certainly makes “dollars and cents” sense
> from the manufacturers’ perspective to minimize costs for short production runs,
> but my collector’s perspective is that these are now second-class products that,
> depending on one’s age, will not outlive their owners.
>

Personally, I believe this largely a false Internet-propogated myth. CD-Rs, in general, will outlive their owners.

> I have written to Gramophone pleading that they should distinguish in their
> reviews between RedBook CDs and CD-Rs (e.g. Heritage and Pristine, for
> example), but they have failed to take me up on that. I do not mean to
> suggest that these CD-Rs are sonically inferior. They’re not and neither
> Is their presentation. It’s their longevity that I question.

I agree that sellers should make clear when they are selling CD-Rs, simply because some customers care, whether their care is well-founded or not.

It's going to be tough to get sellers of used CD-Rs to comply with this as I bet much of the time they don't even know they are selling a CD-R.

[Chris J.]

On 12 Jan 2022 Jerry wrote:

>> Was surprised when I opened a Hyperion disc purchased at Berkshire
>> Record Outlet and it was a CD-R.

> A disturbing trend it’s sad to say.

I agree.

> I’ve encountered a Lyrita CD-R and
> have noticed that an Alto reissue of a Regis set is also on CD-R. It
> certainly makes “dollars and cents” sense from the manufacturers’
> perspective to minimize costs for short production runs,
> but my collector’s perspective is that these are now second-class
> products that, depending on one’s age, will not outlive their owners.

That depends on the quality of the CD-Rs. Are they archive grade or cheap
crap CD-Rs? To be on the safe side, I would advice to copy the music to a
hard drive and/or an archive grade CD-R. That is if you still have a
computer with a disc burner, else enjoy the music while you can and hope
for the best.

Chris

[Frank Berger]

It may be as you say, but I see no reason to believe it.

[Néstor Castiglione]

Unfortunately, I've been unlucky with CD-Rs. Out of the several hundred CD-Rs I acquired between the late 1990s and early 2000s, most consisting of needle drops a dear and now long gone collector friend made for me of various acoustic and early electrical rarities, exactly four remain playable to this day. The rest had become unplayable already by 2007, when I moved into my first apartment. They were well cared for and always stored away from direct sunlight. I've avoided purchasing CD-Rs whenever possible ever since, but do continue to use them to make personal copies of music to play in my car.

Aside from Lyrita and Hyperion, some of the other labels that also use CD-Rs are Testament, Hänssler, and Hallé.

I get why some labels may feel that CD-Rs are necessary, but at that point why not just go full digital instead? Or at least cut the price on their recordings, instead of charging full price? If I'm paying full price, I want a factory-pressed disc.

[Frank Berger]

A couple of years ago, I went through my collection and test-played a lot of my CD-Rs, some of them being nearly 20 years old. Every one played fine. Some of these were ones I had burned myself on supposedly good quality media, the rest on random brandsI didn't pay attention to. If some had failed no doubt I would have. I have no explanation for our differing experience.

[Frank Berger]

I have a cassette, made for me by a friend in 1975, with Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon and Queen's A Night at the Opera. It has spent a fair amount of time in glove compartments, on dashboards, and under car seats. I just tried it. Plays perfectly. Guess I'm just lucky.

[Néstor Castiglione]

Cassettes are remarkably durable. I still have my father's collection. Some of those cassettes are pushing 60 years old, but play just fine, "analog warmth" caused by natural wear notwithstanding. I also still have a few cassettes that my maternal grandfather recorded as "audio letters" that he sent to my parents from the old country back in the early 1980s. Despite the passing of time (and a couple of instances of flooding in my parent's home), my grandfather's voice still rings out clearly from those tapes. Now if only my CD-Rs had held up half as good!

[Bill Anderson]

I had issues with the early batches of CD-R's that I used for saving my transfer projects. They were from Mitsui, considered one of the best producers of CD-R media at the time. But I attached printed paper labels on them with handsome graphic designs, images of 78 labels, and the like.

Bad idea. Either the paper stock or the adhesive damaged the acrylic material. All of them became unplayable after a decade or so. The few cheap no-name CD-Rs I used for tests and quick copies (no labels - just felt tip pen notes) are still playable, going on 20+ years now.

[Frank Berger]

On 1/12/2022 7:16 PM, Bill Anderson wrote:
> I had issues with the early batches of CD-R's that I used for saving my transfer projects. They were from Mitsui, considered one of the best producers of CD-R media at the time. But I attached printed paper labels on them with handsome graphic designs, images of 78 labels, and the like.
>
> Bad idea. Either the paper stock or the adhesive damaged the acrylic material. All of them became unplayable after a decade or so. The few cheap no-name CD-Rs I used for tests and quick copies (no labels - just felt tip pen notes) are still playable, going on 20+ years now.

Ah Ha. I don't believe any of the CD-Rs tested had paper labels. Certainly not the ones I burned.

[Chris J.]

> Frank Berger wrote:

>> Personally, I believe this largely a false Internet-propogated myth.
>> CD-Rs, in general, will outlive their owners.

I prefer facts

On 12 Jan 2022 Néstor Castiglione wrote:

> Unfortunately, I've been unlucky with CD-Rs. Out of the several hundred
> CD-Rs I acquired between the late 1990s and early 2000s, most consisting
> of needle drops a dear and now long gone collector friend made for me of
> various acoustic and early electrical rarities, exactly four remain
> playable to this day. The rest had become unplayable already by 2007,
> when I moved into my first apartment. They were well cared for and
> always stored away from direct sunlight. I've avoided purchasing CD-Rs
> whenever possible ever since, but do continue to use them to make
> personal copies of music to play in my car.

and it's a fact that there were/are many substandard CD-Rs on the market
which became/become unplayable after a few years. The good news:
unplayable discs make good coasters ;-).
There were/are also reliable brands/manufacturers, but I don't know
what's on the market nowadays. Besides, the name on the packaging was/is
often only a label, not the manufacturer's name, and brand names can be
licensed to (trading) companies who buy whatever they can get for as
little money as possible and then stick a brand name on the product.

'If you used a computer between 1997 and 2005, you probably burned
valuable data to at least one recordable CD (CD-R) or DVD-R.
Unfortunately, these have a limited lifespan, and many have already
become unreadable. That’s why it’s important to back up your recordable
discs before it’s too late—here’s how to do it.'

https://www.howtogeek.com/682807/the-cds-you-burned-are-going-bad-heres-
what-you-need-to-do/

There are archival grade CD-Rs, but they are more expensive than
'regular' discs.

Blasts from the past:

https://www.cdrfaq.org/faq07.html#S7

https://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware/cdrom/cd_quality.shtml


Chris

[Alan Dawes]

In article <WaCdnQcqNrM_vEL8...@supernews.com>,

The cdrfaq at:
https://cdrfaq.org/
although it was last updated in 2010, makes intersting reading (if you
have a day or two free!).
Section 7-5 is on "how long do CD-Rs and CD-RWs last?" see:
https://cdrfaq.org/faq07.html#S7X
scroll down about a quarter of the way through.

I am sure gggg will be along soon with links to this and other newsgroups
from the 1990s and 2000s when this was discussed along with "bronzing" of
commercial pressed CDs.

Alan

--
alan....@argonet.co.uk
alan....@riscos.org
Using an ARMX6

[Frank Berger]

None of the the result of scientific scrutiny. It's all anecdotal. The only thing I believe is that my well-handled, CD-Rs seem all to be playable some after 15 years. So when someone says they don't last, I'm supposed to believe them and not my own ears? I don't think so. Now those who believe CD-Rs don't last might say, who is this Berger guy and why should we believe that he's even relating his own experience truthfully? Fact is, what I say is no less anecdotal that what anyone else says. That's why we need science, and I don't believe there are any good studies.

[Andrew Clarke]

On Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 4:51:50 PM UTC+11, Jonathan Ben Schragadove wrote:
> Was surprised when I opened a Hyperion disc purchased at Berkshire Record Outlet and it was a CD-R. First time that's happened. It was factory-sealed (no saran wrap), and the booklet looked original on glossy paper (not laser printed). Is Hyperion keeping older titles "in print" these days by burning CD-R's?

Take the advice of Kermit the Frog and rippit, rippit.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Frank Berger]

On 1/12/2022 12:51 AM, Jonathan Ben Schragadove wrote:
> Was surprised when I opened a Hyperion disc purchased at Berkshire Record Outlet and it was a CD-R. First time that's happened. It was factory-sealed (no saran wrap), and the booklet looked original on glossy paper (not laser printed). Is Hyperion keeping older titles "in print" these days by burning CD-R's?

Which CD was it? I have a lot of Hyperions from BRO and I'd like to check.

[Jonathan Ben Schragadove]

York Bowen
Piano Music
Stephen Hough
CDA66838

[Frank Berger]

On 1/12/2022 3:53 AM, Frank Lekens wrote:
> Op 12-1-2022 om 06:51 schreef Jonathan Ben Schragadove:
>> Was surprised when I opened a Hyperion disc purchased at Berkshire Record Outlet and it was a CD-R.  First time that's happened.  It was factory-sealed (no saran wrap), and the booklet looked original on glossy paper (not laser printed).  Is Hyperion keeping older titles "in print" these days by burning CD-R's?
> https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/pages/archive-service.asp
>

Since this appears to be an on-demand service, it's not clear how a CD-R would end up in BRO's inventory, is it?

[JohnGavin]

One of Stephen Hough’s best BTW - here the performer and composer are very well aligned!
His British Album is also very fine.

[Jonathan Ben Schragadove]

That's the question...I'm wondering if, Hyperion's on-demand "Archive" service aside, they're keeping certain popular titles "in print" by burning CD-Rs to keep costs down.

[Jonathan Ben Schragadove]

Yes, the Bowen is great! I should check out the British Album as well - thank you!

[Frank Berger]

I'm going to order it. We'll see if it is a CD-R. Can you believe BRO has 4 Hyperion all titled "York Bowen: Piano Music?" Reminds of the Bob Newhart Show where a guy introduce his brother Darryl and his other brother Darryl.

[Alan Dawes]

In article <RcSdnSdXnZJbqH38...@supernews.com>,

Frank Berger <frankd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/13/2022 6:57 AM, Alan Dawes wrote:
> > In article <WaCdnQcqNrM_vEL8...@supernews.com>,
> > Frank Berger <frankd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 1/12/2022 11:22 AM, Chris J. wrote:
> >>> On 12 Jan 2022 Jerry wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> Was surprised when I opened a Hyperion disc purchased at Berkshire
> >>>>> Record Outlet and it was a CD-R.
> >>>

> >>>> A disturbing trend itês sad to say.
> >>>
> >>> I agree.
> >>>
> >>>> Iêve encountered a Lyrita CD-R and have noticed that an Alto

> >>>> reissue of a Regis set is also on CD-R. It certainly makes

> >>>> ïdollars and centsè sense from the manufacturersê perspective to
> >>>> minimize costs for short production runs, but my collectorês

> >>>> perspective is that these are now second-class products that,

> >>>> depending on oneês age, will not outlive their owners.

To be fair to the people who spent a great deal of time compiling the
crdfaq there are a very large number of references in it for further
research, just in that tiny section 7-5 that I referred to there are 9
links to website pages for you to explore further. Sadly, with the passing
of time, most are no longer directly available, so you will need to
explore the web archive via the wayback machine to find backups of them.

[Frank Berger]

On 1/16/2022 6:31 AM, Alan Dawes wrote:
> In article <RcSdnSdXnZJbqH38...@supernews.com>,
> Frank Berger <frankd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 1/13/2022 6:57 AM, Alan Dawes wrote:
>>> In article <WaCdnQcqNrM_vEL8...@supernews.com>,
>>> Frank Berger <frankd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 1/12/2022 11:22 AM, Chris J. wrote:
>>>>> On 12 Jan 2022 Jerry wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Was surprised when I opened a Hyperion disc purchased at Berkshire
>>>>>>> Record Outlet and it was a CD-R.
>>>>>

>>>>>> A disturbing trend it s sad to say.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I ve encountered a Lyrita CD-R and have noticed that an Alto

>>>>>> reissue of a Regis set is also on CD-R. It certainly makes

>>>>>> •dollars and cents sense from the manufacturers perspective to
>>>>>> minimize costs for short production runs, but my collector s

>>>>>> perspective is that these are now second-class products that,

>>>>>> depending on one s age, will not outlive their owners.

If some guy posts that CD-Rs don't last and links to another guy saying CD-Rs don't last, that is not evidence. It's another anecdote.

[Alan Dawes]

In article <_5SdnURWOIt1sXn8...@supernews.com>,

Frank Berger <frankd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/16/2022 6:31 AM, Alan Dawes wrote:
> > In article <RcSdnSdXnZJbqH38...@supernews.com>,
> > Frank Berger <frankd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 1/13/2022 6:57 AM, Alan Dawes wrote:
> >>> In article <WaCdnQcqNrM_vEL8...@supernews.com>,
> >>> Frank Berger <frankd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> On 1/12/2022 11:22 AM, Chris J. wrote:
> >>>>> On 12 Jan 2022 Jerry wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> Was surprised when I opened a Hyperion disc purchased at Berkshire
> >>>>>>> Record Outlet and it was a CD-R.
> >>>>>

> >>>>>> A disturbing trend itês sad to say.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I agree.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Iêve encountered a Lyrita CD-R and have noticed that an Alto

> >>>>>> reissue of a Regis set is also on CD-R. It certainly makes

> >>>>>> èdollars and centsè sense from the manufacturersê perspective to
> >>>>>> minimize costs for short production runs, but my collectorês

> >>>>>> perspective is that these are now second-class products that,

> >>>>>> depending on oneês age, will not outlive their owners.

I totally agree, that's why back in the late 1990s and 2000s when so much
bullshit was around about CDRs I found that the CDRfaq was so useful as it
weeded out the crap.

[Frank Berger]

I think you missed my somewhat obscure point. The CDR faq to which you refer certainly was written by a reasonable person and contained much useful information (much of it out of date now), but was loaded with totally unsupported information, of the sort "so-and-so (a person not a study) said such and so" about this or that (like CD-R longevity). Most of it is itself anecdotal and without any real basis.

My wife's oncologist, upon offering her Tamoxifen post cancer surgery (according to studies reduces the chance of recurrence by some percentage), cautioned that some users had reported weight gain. I suppose she said this because my wife struggles with her weight. She chose to use the drug anyway. I went home and researched it to the extent I could. There were zero studies re: weight gain. There were about equal numbers of anecdotal reports of weight loss and weight gain. There was no scientific basis for the doctors caution about the drug. So even professionals are subject to making errors of this type. It's easy enough to come up with various psychological explanations about why we humans do this sort of thing, but I'll refrain.

[Review by Jonathan]

A few more Hyperions and no other CD-Rs yet, thankfully. Frank, did your Bowen disc turn out to be a CD-R?

[Frank Berger]

I bought it, but forgot to look. Now I have to find it.

[Frank Berger]

Found it. It's a CD-R. Nowhere indicated. Bought it from Berkshire Record Outlet and their listing did not indicate it was a CD-R. Not their fault, they couldn't know. Like I said, this is not a hot button issue for me, but they really ought to indicate it. Discogs shows an original release in 1996 and an undated re-release which is not dated. I bet the original was CD and the re-release CD-R.

[Review by Jonathan]

Thank you for the update and information, Frank. Much appreciated!

[Al Eisner]

I should know this, and I think I once did: whata's the easiest way
to tell? I want to check a few recent Hyperion purchases from BRO.
TIA.
--
Al Eisner

[Frank Berger]

A CD-R doesn't not have any ID information printed on the inner silver ring on the disc. Also, you can see through it unless there's a label pasted on or very dense printing.

[Frank Berger]

Double negative not intended.

[Néstor Castiglione]

CD-Rs have a blue-greenish tint on the data side, whereas CDs typically are silver.

[Frank Berger]

That doesn't appear to be strictly true. My Hyperion Bowen CD-R is the same color as regular CDs.

[Néstor Castiglione]

Your Hyperion CD-R may possibly use a phthalocyanine dye. Taiyo Yuden CD-Rs, for example, used a cyanine dye which gave them a distinctive sea green hue; I have a number of on-demand discs from Arkiv, Presto, and Amazon which bear that tint. Phthalocyanine CD-Rs are less common. Lyrita uses such CD-Rs in their releases. The date side of the discs have a silvery sheen, but they are noticeably duller than CDs and under sunlight take on a faint green tint. Another distinguishing physical characteristic of CD-Rs is that they are transparent when held up to light. Factory-pressed CDs are not transparent.

[Frank Berger]

No big deal, but surely your didn't cut my answer that CD-Rs are transparent just so you could say it.

Upon very, very close examination in sunlight, the CD-R does have the slightest bit of green in it. And I mean slight.

[Néstor Castiglione]

I somehow missed that, Frank. Sorry. Crossing my fingers that you don't drop me from your holiday greeting card list. :P

[Al Eisner]

Thanks. I assume you mean the inner silver ring on the playing side?
I checked 7 or 8 reent purchases. The only one in which that ring was
entirely blank was the same Hyperion Hough/Bowen disc you mentioned,
also from BRO. Another BRO Hyperion disc (an older issue) had
identifying text there. One Biddulph CD from BRO had closely-spaced
radial markings but no obvious text.

I'm not sure I understand about "see through". Don't all commercial
CDs have printed labels on the back side?
--
Al Eisner

[Frank Berger]

I didn't say you couldn't see through a commercial CD. I said you could see through a CD-R unless a paper label was pasted on or it was printed so densely as to prevent seeing through.

[Al Eisner]

I guess that, at least for those I tried, I could not see through any
of the commercial CDs, including the presumptive CD-R(s).
--
Al Eisner

[Frank Berger]

I'm going to have clarify. It's been a long time since I've actually burned a CD-R myself. I have three brands of blank CD-Rs, all of which come solidly printed on the top surface. You can't see through them.

I can see through the Hyperion CD-R in question. The top of the CD is printed on, but there are open spaces you can easily see through when you hold it up to the light.

[Al Eisner]

I believe you, but I find it hard to detect. But I can try to rely on your
other suggested method, using the inner silver ring. Do you have an
opinion on the Biddulph iscI described above?
--
Al Eisner

[Frank Berger]

Opinion about what? If there is a bar code or something like that, I imagine it is not a CD-R.

[Al Eisner]

No, just the closely-spaced radial marks I described, all around the
cirvcle. But maybe this discussion is probably no longer a good
use of your time or mine. Thanks again.
--
Al Eisner

[Frank Berger]

None of my CD-Rs have "closely spaced radial marks." Regular CDs do. I think it's a kind of bar code.

[Alan P Dawes]

Google tells me that "a way to tell a CDR vs. a CD is to look at the side
that plays. A CDR will have a demarcation line where the laser finished
its writing. A real CD will not have this line since it is stamped from a
glass-master." This seems to be true fro the CDs and CDRs I've just looked
at.

[drh8h]

About the longevity of CD-Rs, I will say about 99% of my experience has been good. On the other hand, if you have a CD-R showing signs of discoloration or spotting (just like being left in the rain!) on the label side, you might want to check it for playability and back it up. I have encountered a number of Sony CD-Rs through the mid-2000s with this problem and a few have compromised sound on the last tracks. Likely, the entire disc will eventually be unplayable. If you have the software or CD duplicator to read it, the manufacturers' code is 97m24s16f. In my experience, particularly affected are the Nimbus and Divine Art labels. There are likely many others. The problem is not evidence with publications dated 2008 or later.

[Andrew Clarke]

On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 11:57:43 PM UTC+11, drh8h wrote:

> About the longevity of CD-Rs, I will say about 99% of my experience has been good. On the other hand, if you have a CD-R showing signs of discoloration or spotting (just like being left in the rain!) on the label side, you might want to check it for playability and back it up. I have encountered a number of Sony CD-Rs through the mid-2000s with this problem and a few have compromised sound on the last tracks. Likely, the entire disc will eventually be unplayable. If you have the software or CD duplicator to read it, the manufacturers' code is 97m24s16f. In my experience, particularly affected are the Nimbus and Divine Art labels. There are likely many others. The problem is not evidence with publications dated 2008 or later.

It's Kermit time. Rip it, rip it.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Jonathan Ben Schragadove]

On Tuesday, January 11, 2022 at 9:51:50 PM UTC-8, Jonathan Ben Schragadove wrote:
> Was surprised when I opened a Hyperion disc purchased at Berkshire Record Outlet and it was a CD-R. First time that's happened. It was factory-sealed (no saran wrap), and the booklet looked original on glossy paper (not laser printed). Is Hyperion keeping older titles "in print" these days by burning CD-R's?

I’ve been bamboozled again…another Hyperion CD purchased from Berkshire Record Outlet turned out to be a CD-R…this time, the Hamelin Liszt Sonata (CDA67760) from 2010. The only retailer I’ve seen that actually identifies the product as a CD-R is HMV Japan (they also have a listing for the original CD). Haven’t listened to the entire disc yet, but the Bénédiction is stunning!!!

[Jerry]

[Jerry]

A Naxos March 2023 release purchased in the U.S. was a CD-R, the first of that type I’ve ever encountered from that label. I’ve written to Naxos but have not yet received an explanation.

[Pluted Pup]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2022 03:52:55 -0700, Alan P Dawes wrote:

> Google tells me that "a way to tell a CDR vs. a CD is to look at the side
> that plays. A CDR will have a demarcation line where the laser finished
> its writing. A real CD will not have this line since it is stamped from a
> glass-master." This seems to be true fro the CDs and CDRs I've just looked
> at.

Many pressed CDs do have a visible line showing where the
music stops, it's just not as visible.

CD-Rs I've seen have serial numbers, including the CD-Rs
in regular packaging, like with the Lyrita label.

[Pluted Pup]

My Joyce Hatto CD-Rs are clear, like the CD-Rs that I
burn myself.

[Pluted Pup]

I meant clear, as in silver like a pressed CD.

[Mikro Phonie]

What you people fail to realize is that CD-Rs do not have the same protective layer underneath that glass mastered factory pressed silver CDs have. And CD-Rs have no resale value. And CD-Rs have a short lifespan and will start to glitch. If I ever receive a CD-R I send it back. It is completely dishonest for labels to send customers CD-Rs when they are advertised as CDs. If they are going to sell CD-Rs they need to make it clear that's what they are selling.

[Dan Koren]

On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 10:29:55 AM UTC-7, Mikro Phonie wrote:
>
> What you people fail to realize is that CD-Rs do not have the same
> protective layer underneath that glass mastered factory pressed
> silver CDs have. And CD-Rs have no resale value. And CD-Rs have
> a short lifespan and will start to glitch. If I ever receive a CD-R I send
> it back. It is completely dishonest for labels to send customers CD-Rs
> when they are advertised as CDs. If they are going to sell CD-Rs they
> need to make it clear that's what they are selling.

Just rip them to an electronic format and save the
files. Physical media are unnecessary burdens.

dk

[Mikro Phonie]

Your opinion regarding physical media is unnecessary. I don't give a hoot what you do. People like you are so annoying, just because you rip everything doesn't mean everyone else should do the same. Have fun with your virtual collection until your hard drive fails.

[Dan Koren]

On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 11:10:49 AM UTC-7, Mikro Phonie wrote:
> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 10:54:23 AM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 10:29:55 AM UTC-7, Mikro Phonie wrote:
> > >
> > > What you people fail to realize is that CD-Rs do not have the same
> > > protective layer underneath that glass mastered factory pressed
> > > silver CDs have. And CD-Rs have no resale value. And CD-Rs have
> > > a short lifespan and will start to glitch. If I ever receive a CD-R I send
> > > it back. It is completely dishonest for labels to send customers CD-Rs
> > > when they are advertised as CDs. If they are going to sell CD-Rs they
> > > need to make it clear that's what they are selling.
> >
> > Just rip them to an electronic format and save the
> > files. Physical media are unnecessary burdens.
>

> Your opinion regarding physical media is unnecessary.

Just like your opinion about CD-R.

> I don't give a hoot what you do.

Ditto.

> People like you are so annoying, just because you rip
> everything doesn't mean everyone else should do the
> same.

I don't rip anything. I don't have time. I have an entire
garage filled with LPs and CDs.

> Have fun with your virtual collection until your hard
> drive fails.

Have you heard of cloud storage? Backblaze? How
about when one's home burns down, or is flooded
or tornadoed? Hard drives are not the only things
that can break down.

Or how about escargots encroaching on one's
shellac?

dk

[Mikro Phonie]

Hey Einstein, this is a discussion regarding CD-Rs, so my opinion of CD-Rs is relevant. Your unasked for opinions regarding ripping and storage of music are not relevant.

[Frank Berger]

Every time this subject comes up I say the same thing. I agree that seller should disclose that they are selling CD-Rs. Not because it really matters, but because some people think it does and they are entitled to know what they are getting.

Also, every time someone asserts something about the lack of longevity of CD-Rs, I grab a half dozen CD-Rs that I burned myself years 30 or so years ago. They always play perfectly. Including today. Also I grab a couple of CD-Rs that I bought (perhaps unknowingly at the time) and they also play fine. I have yet to have a single CD-R go bad. For that matter, I have a cassette recorded by a friend for me around 1975, containing Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon and Queen's A Night at the Opera that I just listened to. Perfect.

I do not keep my media on the dashboard of my car in the hot sun, or use them as coasters or frisbies. That may have has much to do with their longevity as anything else.

I concluded years ago that the crap about CD-R longevity was mostly conspiracy theory stuff.

[Dan Koren]

> Hey Einstein, this is a discussion regarding CD-Rs,
> so my opinion of CD-Rs is relevant. Your unasked
> for opinions regarding ripping and storage of music
> are not relevant.

Hey Mikro Phoney, your opinions are not worth the
paper on which you write them. You know where to
throw it, don't you?

dk

[Mikro Phonie]

You must be the luckiest person in the world to not ever have a problem with a CD-R. You should buy a lottery ticket! First of all CD-Rs do not have the same protective layer underneath as factory pressed silver CDs, so they can more easily be damaged. And no, I don't scratch my CDs so that's not the reason they don't play. Second of all, many CD-Rs have issues with the dyes used which cause them to become unplayable. So opposed to your alleged experience with perfect CD-Rs I'll just state that almost all the CD-Rs I've burned have started to glitch, and the CD-Rs I've inadvertently bought from dishonest sellers have started to glitch also. CD-Rs are disposable junk and you'll find that out eventually. Also CD-Rs have no resale value. So enjoy your junky CD-Rs while they last.

[Dan Koren]

On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 1:19:12 PM UTC-7, Mikro Phonie wrote:
>
> CD-Rs do not have the same protective layer underneath as
> factory pressed silver CDs, so they can more easily be damaged.

The "silver" layer is actually aluminum, and it oxidizes
faster than anyone would have imagined. The reason
for having it is merely to provide a light reflecting layer.
It does not "protect" against anything physical hazards.

dk

[Frank Berger]

As I said, I don't abuse my CD-Rs. YMMV.

> And no, I don't scratch my CDs so that's not the reason they don't play. Second of all, many CD-Rs have issues with the dyes used which cause them to become unplayable. So opposed to your >alleged experience with perfect CD-Rs I'll just state that almost all the CD-Rs I've burned have started to glitch,

I've always purchased the best CD-Rs available. Virtually all Taiyo Yuden. No dye problem AFAIK.

>and the CD-Rs I've inadvertently bought from dishonest sellers have started to glitch also. CD-Rs are disposable junk and you'll find that out eventually.

I don't expect to live that long.

> Also CD-Rs have no resale value. So >enjoy your junky CD-Rs while they last.

I'll sell them to suckers.

[Mikro Phonie]

You're completely clueless aren't you? I never said the "silver" (aluminum) layer is what protects CDs. Factory pressed CDs have an extra layer of plastic at the bottom of the disc which helps protect against scratches. CD-Rs do not have the same extra layer of plastic underneath the disc, which makes them much more prone to play issues from minor scratches. Bozo. And no CD I have has ever had oxidation issues due to the aluminum in the disc. Do you just pull this stuff out of your rear end?

[Mikro Phonie]

Try selling your CD-Rs to a used record store or on Discogs and see what you can get for them. Nuthin. Might as well toss them in the trash.

[Frank Berger]

I was joking. I have so few CD-Rs in my collection that the question of selling them is irrelevant. Also, why is an occasional failure of a CD-R which must account for a small percentage of just about anyone's collection, actually matter. Why does this almost non-issue matter so much to you?

[Mikro Phonie]

Seems like it matters more to you. You're the one who has been blathering on about how great CD-Rs are for more than a year.

[Frank Berger]

Every time I win an argument I'm accused of blathering. When was the last time I mentioned it, since you obviously looked it up. More than a year ago, I bet. Blathering. Right.
You don't agree with what I am saying so you starting to get personal. Fuck off.

[Jonathan Ben Schragadove]

Would be interested to hear Naxos' response, especially given that it's a new release. My experience so far with Hyperion, Sony, and Chandos CD-Rs have been with older titles - presumably their excuse is that it's not cost effective for them to do another run since physical sales are so low.

[Mikro Phonie]

First, you lost the argument. Second, I count 24 posts of yours in this thread since it started over a year ago. That qualifies as blathering. Now go play with your glitch-ridden garbage CD-Rs.

[Mikro Phonie]

There are pressing plants in Europe that will do small runs of pressed silver CDs for not much more than $1 or so each. One plant will even do counts as low as 50 or 100. These labels releasing CD-Rs are just being extra cheap and lazy. No excuses at all.

[Frank Berger]

I participated in the thread like a lot of other people. Have you checked to see which of them are also blatherers? As I said I don't have that many CD-Rs and none of them have any glitches. You are making stuff up. What an idiot.

[Jonathan Ben Schragadove]

...no, no, not again...this time it's the Harnoncourt Haydn Paris Symphonies set on DHM/BMG/Sony purchased from (and sold by) Amazon. The saran wrap immediately made me suspicious, and sure enough the discs are CD-Rs, but at least everything (including the laser-printed booklet) are in "brand-new" condition (not always my experience with "new" CD-R products).

(I've stayed away from Harnoncourt in the past, but have to say that I'm really enjoying this set so far...!)

[Pluted Pup]

On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 10:29:53 -0700, Mikro Phonie wrote:

> What you people fail to realize is that CD-Rs do not have the same protective layer underneath that glass mastered factory pressed silver CDs have. And CD-Rs have no resale value. And CD-Rs have a short lifespan and will start to glitch. If I ever receive a CD-R I send it back. It is completely dishonest for labels to send customers CD-Rs when they are advertised as CDs. If they are going to sell CD-Rs they need to make it clear that's what they are selling.

The average CD-R I bought is considerably higher
priced than the average pressed CD I've bought.
That's one of the reasons I don't like CD-Rs,
because they are more expensive to make than
pressed CDs.

I've heard that press runs of 500, 1,000 and so on
are far cheaper to press than to burn, and result in a
less fragile product. Yet, some labels stick to CD-R
as a matter of policy, rather than saving money.