Pristine Release: Casals' Bach Suites - tremendous improvements
Andrew Rose
BACH Suites for Solo Cello
Suite 1: Paris, 2 June 1938, Eng. M. Cailly, issued in Bach Society
Volume 7, DB.3671-3673
Suites 2 & 3: Abbey Road, London, 25 November 1936, issued in Bach
Society Volume 6, DB.3399-3404
Suites 4 & 5: Paris, 13 June 1939, Eng. M. Cailly, issued in Bach
Society Volume 8, DB.6538-6540
Suite 6: Paris, 3 June 1938, Eng. M. Cailly, issued in Bach Society
Volume 7, DB.3674-3677
Pablo Casals, Cello
Web page:
http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Chamber/PACM074.php
Short Notes
Long regarded as one of the finest recordings of the last century, Pablo
Casals' legendary 1930s set of Bach's six Cello Suites is one of the
pinnacles of this remarkable instrumentalist's distinguished career. The
cellist had been playing them daily for almost 50 years and his often
very personal interpretation is still the one by which others are judged.
In this new XR remastering, these recordings can be heard literally as
never before. Using the most advanced technology available, we have been
able to strip away the decades to reveal a huge amount of hitherto
unheard detail and nuance, bringing the listener closer to Casals than
has ever been possible before. Set to be among our recordings of the
year, it really does have to be heard to be believed.
Notes on the transfers:
When one considers all of the recordings made in the post-1925
electrical recording era, but before the development of full frequency
range recordings in the 1940s, there can be few instruments more suited
to the restrictions of the technology at the time than the cello. The
range of frequencies required to capture it well, thanks to its low
register, generally falls within the capabilities of 1930 disc
recording, and this makes it a prime candidate for XR remastering. I've
already had considerable success with Casals - his 1938 recording of the
Dvor�k Cello Concerto (PASC 246) beat all others, old and new, to become
Gramophone's recommended recording of the work in February 2011.
However, nothing prepared me for the possibilities lying hidden in the
grooves of his Cello Suites recordings of 1936 to 1939, which have
surpassed all expectations. I was already familiar with issues on both
EMI and Naxos (the latter a considerable improvement on the former), but
neither offers the listener the full-bodied tone of Casals' cello, the
crispness of his sound, the sense of immediacy and clarity which lay
hidden in these recordings for so many decades.
My first task was to take the disparate recordings and bring some
homogeneity to the sound of the instrument - each suite was initially
processed separately, using a common reference in order to iron out
differences in the recording equipment and locations used during the
recording sessions. Thereafter I brought them together to continue what
was at times a tricky restoration - revealing so much musical detail
also reveals much else that is unwanted. Occasionally this may still be
heard, but it should not distract you from one of the most remarkable
restorations it has been my pleasure to undertake.
MP3 Sample - Suite #1: Pr�lude, Allemande & Courante
http://tinyurl.com/PACM074
You can read more in our newsletter: http://tinyurl.com/PANL04022011
From this week's newsletter:
Editorial - Casals' Bach: An unexpected surprise
Sometimes the task of restoring remastering historic recordings is a
reasonably straightforward one, the results almost entirely predictable.
As our most recent transfer dates edge closer into the age of truly
hi-fi recordings, in the late 1950s and into the early 1960s, there are
fewer surprises and fewer disappointments. Even in the years which
immediately preceded this the path is rocky - I have a recording of
Mozart symphonies from around 1953 which was so shockingly badly made
for LP issue that thus far it has entirely resisted any efforts to make
it listenable in the 21st century.
But recordings such as those we issue this week by Peter Katin, made in
1958 and 1959 by the exceptional talents then working for the UK Decca
record company, were almost guaranteed successes the moment the stylus
was lowered onto the records. Admittedly I made life a little easier for
myself by the use of early 1970s pressings rather than the late 1950s
originals, but I suspect that the differences would have been marginal.
The music itself, once lifted from its vinyl sepulchre, proved largely
unwanting of much in the way of XR-style resuscitation. The patient was
still alive and breathing and in remarkably fit and youthful form after
52 years or so.
Occasionally, however, my work throws up some real surprises. It's
perhaps a little hard to believe, but even today with hundreds of albums
remastered using the XR technique, I often have very little idea of the
likely outcome of my work when I begin it. Sometimes things begin with
great promise that is never quite realised, or at least not as initially
expected. I'm usually searching for hidden sounds, musical frequencies
buried within a recording, sonic secrets that have perhaps never been
heard since the day of recording, and I suppose that sometimes they
simply aren't there to be revealed - or perhaps they are so well
concealed that we do not yet have the tools to unmask them.
Every so often, though, this opposite is true, and I'm able to elicit a
true sonic revelation, something that just makes you sit back and say
"wow!" and "how?" and then mutter similarly monosyllabic responses that
have no place in a newsletter such as this.
Such an event took place this week. A few months ago I worked on Pablo
Casals' famous 1937 recording of the Dvor�k Cello Concerto with the
Czech Philharmonic Orchestra under George Szell (PASC246). It proved a
surprising success to me at the time - the tonal range of the cello
seems to be particularly well suited to XR remastering from recordings
of this era - and I made a mental note at the time to return to Casals
sooner rather than later.
As is all too often the case, I got sidetracked by other music, became
embroiled in the Furtw�ngler Bruckner series, and let the idea of more
Casals quietly recede. Then in the last issue of Gramophone magazine a
major review of all the recordings of the Dvor�k concert in the current
catalogue concluded that the Casals, and specifically the XR-remastered
Casals on Pristine, was after some 74 years the finest recording available:
"The historic choice doubles as a first choice, a case where an early
classic remains essentially musically unchallenged. Casals achieves
pathos, drama and unspeakable poignancy, and the Czech PO responds
vigorously to the young George Szell's alert direction"
Time, perhaps, to make good on my intentions of September 2010 and
tackle the most famous of all Casals' many recordings, the Bach Cello
Suites.
There was however one further, and final trigger. I was reading The
Guardian newspaper online early last week and came across mention of a
book by one Eric Siblin, called simply "The Cello Suites" .Siblin was,
until he attended a recital of the Bach Suites, first and foremost a
rock journalist, with little prior knowledge or experience of classical
music. Yet the Bach captivated him, and quickly led him to the Casals
recording and a musical investigation which ultimately led to a very
readable book which interleaves biographies of both Bach and Casals with
descriptive essays on the music, travelogue, interviews and other
observations. Ultimately, though, it revolves around the Casals 78s.
Recorded between 1936 and 1939, the Casals recordings served to catapult
the Suites into the public conciousness. Despite decades of public
performances by the great cellist, they still had something of a
reputation of being dry, dusty technical exercises. Casals' recording
changed that reputation for ever, and ensured that they would finally
become a part of the core repertoire some two centuries or more after
they had been written.
As such these recordings have probably never been out of print.
Certainly there have been multiple reissues on different labels and many
efforts to remaster them. No surprises left to be had here then? Far
from it. I've rarely been so completely astonished by what emerged from
a recording as I have been these past few days. Some rough edges on a
handful of sides aside, much of this sounds like it might have been
recorded decades later - indeed when listening on a modestly capable
hi-fi system designed to flatter rather than be overly analytical, you
might listen to the first Suite and believe it to be a 1980s recording
rather than something cut into wax three months before Hitler and
Chamberlain signed the Munich Agreement.
Thanks to the low register of the cello by comparison to many solo
instruments there are considerably more harmonics captured within the
frequency range of the 78rpm disc. Couple this with the ability of XR to
dig into the upper frequencies, all too often filtered out (XR did
originally stand for just this - Xtended Range), and it seems amazing
things really are possible.
To be sure I wasn't getting too carried away by this I put my efforts up
against both the EMI release and the recent Naxos Historic issue (the
latter being generally preferred). Both were worlds away. EMI had often
bizarre background noise running through a distinctly grim and flat
sound, whilst the Naxos - very well transferred it has to be said -
offered none of the richness, the body, nor the upper end clarity that
had been revealed here. The contrasts were quite amazing.
So why do we need another release of this recording? I've seen it
written on a number of occasions by a well-known former classical record
producer that there's no point in continually working away on these
recordings, that a Schnabel Beethoven Sonata is always going to have the
same notes played in the same way regardless of how well it's been
transferred or remastered, and that we should therefore be concentrating
on recordings not previously issued or reissued.
There are two answers to this. First and easiest is the business
argument - put it simply recordings like this have remained in the
catalogue because they continue to sell. It is highly unusual for a
previously unissued recording to bring in much revenue unless, as in the
case of the Stokowski Philadelphia Return Concert recording we issued
last month (PASC264) it was already well-known through poor copies
circulating in the 'underground'.
But I think far more important than that is the opportunity that a
remastering such as this brings to hear so much more of the
performances, to find oneself so much more involved, to be able to hear
for the first time the finest nuances of the playing one of the world's
finest cellists in his masterpiece recording is what makes it all
worthwhile. To put it another way: given the choice between listening to
a fine modern recording on a top-end hi-fi system. or listening to the
same thing of a system with socks stuffed into the loudspeakers, which
would you choose?
Have a listen to Casals' Bach Cello Suites - there's a nice long sample
to download - because someone just removed the socks from your speakers.
Andrew Rose, February 11th, 2011
--
Andrew Rose
Pristine Classical: "The destination for people interested in historic
recordings..." (Gramophone)
Andrew Rose
>
> You can read more in our newsletter: http://tinyurl.com/PANL04022011
Bad link: should link to http://tinyurl.com/PANL11022011
wkasimer
> I was already familiar with issues on both
> EMI and Naxos (the latter a considerable improvement on the former), but
> neither offers the listener the full-bodied tone of Casals' cello, the
> crispness of his sound, the sense of immediacy and clarity which lay
> hidden in these recordings for so many decades.
I'm listening to your transfer via your site. While I agree that your
transfer is very, very good, and certainly superior to the EMI and
Naxos transfers, those are hardly the best transfers of these
recordings. Both the Pearl and Opus Kura produced excellent
transfers; my personal favorite is the Opus Kura, but it does have
considerably more surface noise than either your transfer or Seth
Winner's on Pearl.
Bill
Abbeddrose Bierce
>Dvorák Cello Concerto (PASC 246) beat all others, old and new, to become
>Gramophone's recommended recording of the work in February 2011.
>
>However, nothing prepared me for the possibilities lying hidden in the
>grooves of his Cello Suites recordings of 1936 to 1939, which have
>surpassed all expectations. I was already familiar with issues on both
>EMI and Naxos (the latter a considerable improvement on the former), but
>neither offers the listener the full-bodied tone of Casals' cello, the
>crispness of his sound, the sense of immediacy and clarity which lay
>hidden in these recordings for so many decades.
>
>My first task was to take the disparate recordings and bring some
>homogeneity to the sound of the instrument - each suite was initially
>processed separately, using a common reference in order to iron out
>differences in the recording equipment and locations used during the
>recording sessions. Thereafter I brought them together to continue what
>was at times a tricky restoration - revealing so much musical detail
>also reveals much else that is unwanted. Occasionally this may still be
>heard, but it should not distract you from one of the most remarkable
>restorations it has been my pleasure to undertake.
>
>
>
>MP3 Sample - Suite #1: Prélude, Allemande & Courante
>Casals' famous 1937 recording of the Dvorák Cello Concerto with the
>Czech Philharmonic Orchestra under George Szell (PASC246). It proved a
>surprising success to me at the time - the tonal range of the cello
>seems to be particularly well suited to XR remastering from recordings
>of this era - and I made a mental note at the time to return to Casals
>sooner rather than later.
>
>As is all too often the case, I got sidetracked by other music, became
>embroiled in the Furtwängler Bruckner series, and let the idea of more
>Casals quietly recede. Then in the last issue of Gramophone magazine a
>major review of all the recordings of the Dvorák concert in the current
What a bunch of crap
Abbedd
pianomaven
>
> BACH Suites for Solo Cello
>
> Suite 1: Paris, 2 June 1938, Eng. M. Cailly, issued in Bach Society
> Volume 7, DB.3671-3673
>
> Suites 2 & 3: Abbey Road, London, 25 November 1936, issued in Bach
> Society Volume 6, DB.3399-3404
>
> Suites 4 & 5: Paris, 13 June 1939, Eng. M. Cailly, issued in Bach
> Society Volume 8, DB.6538-6540
>
> Suite 6: Paris, 3 June 1938, Eng. M. Cailly, issued in Bach Society
> Volume 7, DB.3674-3677
>
> Pablo Casals, Cello
Good old Andrew!
Venturing into new worlds, where nobody has gone before.
TD
Dontait...@aol.com
We who collect 78s know well what great variations there can be in
the sound -- the tonal quality, and even yes, the detail and the
audible notes -- between various pressings. From the stampers used,
from the material used, from the originating company (noisy HMVs
opposed to much quieter Victors). I've been working with 78 rpm
records for 50 years and own about 20,000 of them. I know what I'm
talking about.
It is fatuous and ignorant to say that any and every transfer of any
and every shellac record can only have the same sound and musical
details. And anyone who's worked with 78s knows it.
Don Tait
wkasimer
> We who collect 78s know well what great variations there can be in
> the sound -- the tonal quality, and even yes, the detail and the
> audible notes -- between various pressings. From the stampers used,
> from the material used, from the originating company (noisy HMVs
> opposed to much quieter Victors). I've been working with 78 rpm
> records for 50 years and own about 20,000 of them. I know what I'm
> talking about.
Of course. Did I suggest otherwise?
Bill
pianomaven
Which is precisely why, Don, I prefer to know that the original metal
masters are used when available, a vinyl pressing made, and then a
digital copy made of that analogue vinyl pressing. The metals are, if
available, in Hayes, of course, and usually only accessible by EMI. I
say usually because Bryan Crimp has had easy access to the Hayes
archives over the years, as he used to work for EMI many years ago and
they trusted him.
TD
Dontait...@aol.com
By no means! But others here have. Not you.
Don Tait
wkasimer
> Which is precisely why, Don, I prefer to know that the original metal
> masters are used when available, a vinyl pressing made, and then a
> digital copy made of that analogue vinyl pressing. The metals are, if
> available, in Hayes, of course, and usually only accessible by EMI.
What a shame that EMI's end product stinks.
Bill
ivanmaxim
Yes and it happens so often!!! Wagner Fan
John Wiser
Not always - just most of the time. Perhaps we may think of it as
operator error. Bryan Crimp first came to my attention with dismal
transfers of early EMI chamber music by Elgar for a now unrecalled
small label. His results lived up to his name. Subsequent experiences
of his work compel me to think that it doesn't matter how close you get
to primary sources, without ear and imagination nothing can be done.
JDW
wkasimer
> > What a shame that EMI's end product stinks.
>
> Not always - just most of the time. Perhaps we may think of it as
> operator error. Bryan Crimp first came to my attention with dismal
> transfers of early EMI chamber music by Elgar for a now unrecalled
> small label. His results lived up to his name. Subsequent experiences
> of his work compel me to think that it doesn't matter how close you get
> to primary sources, without ear and imagination nothing can be done.
Exactly. I have a handful of EMI discs transferred by competent
engineers (e.g. Alexander Kipnis' Brahms, transferred by Marston), and
the results are fine. EMI's problem isn't the material at their
disposal, it's their choice of engineers. They've had at least two or
three cracks at the Casals Bach Suites, and it's absurd that their
results have been so inferior to the competition.
Bill
>
> JDW
Abbeddrose Bierce
<wkas...@comcast.net> wrote:
>results have been so inferior to the competition.
In what way?
Abbedd
pianomaven
pianomaven
wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Feb 2011 14:56:11 -0800 (PST), wkasimer
>
Good question.
I wonder what the so-called better transfers have told us about Casals
cello suites of Bach that we didn't know before. New notes, perhaps?
Better intonation? Or do tgey simply want to listen to surface noise
and believe tgey are listening to music?
Such questions are never answered, of course.
TD
John Wiser
> Hogwash! Pure and simple.
Yes, Tom, we have taken note of your position on the subject
and have decided that it is of no benefit to argue it with you.
You can squeal all you like, you won't get many converts.
JDW
Dontait...@aol.com
[snip]
> Not always - just most of the time. Perhaps we may think of it as
> operator error. Bryan Crimp first came to my attention with dismal
> transfers of early EMI chamber music by Elgar for a now unrecalled
> small label. His results lived up to his name. Subsequent experiences
> of his work compel me to think that it doesn't matter how close you get
> to primary sources, without ear and imagination nothing can be done.
>
> JDW
Total agreement. Brian Crimp's 78 transfer work is deficient.
Shrill, thin, tonally emaciated. Those of us who own the original
records and can compare and know. As you clearly know too.
Don Tait
ivanmaxim
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes that right - the trio of engineers (I think all Brits) who worked
on the 97 Callas Edition (which I have mentioned before) screwed it up
royally - details are readily and in some detail available on the
Internet from a number of sources. The real tragedy is this dead woman
has been a cash cow for EMI for years and they treat her recordings so
badly. OTOH the later 2007 ERMI Callas Verdi Heroines is a great
transfer - warm and beautiful. Unfortunately they screwed that up by
not having the original LP contents plus some fillers but they have
anumber of selections from different LPs. The way to hear them is in
the Japanese complete recital edition which I got on Ebay - each CD
matches the original LPs and the transfers are gorgeous. Wagner fan
Pablo Varela
> New release today:
>
> BACH Suites for Solo Cello
>
> Suite 1: Paris, 2 June 1938, Eng. M. Cailly, issued in Bach Society
> Volume 7, DB.3671-3673
>
> Suites 2 & 3: Abbey Road, London, 25 November 1936, issued in Bach
> Society Volume 6, DB.3399-3404
>
> Suites 4 & 5: Paris, 13 June 1939, Eng. M. Cailly, issued in Bach
> Society Volume 8, DB.6538-6540
>
> Suite 6: Paris, 3 June 1938, Eng. M. Cailly, issued in Bach Society
> Volume 7, DB.3674-3677
>
> Pablo Casals, Cello
>
> Web page:http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Chamber/PACM074.php
I'm listening the mp3 sample:
1) cello sound was incredible improved.
2) I think that 78 rpm transfers must be in true mono
3) if the sample is a guide, there something that is very irritating,
when the cello goes down in volume, surface noise was down, when the
cello rise up in volume, the surface noise raise up with it, I prefer
a constant residual noise.
Since my english is not so good, I would write the same in spanish.
Normalmente las transferencias de Andrew me parecen satisfactorias
Oyendo el mp3 sample saco algunas conclusiones
1) el sonido del cello esta considerablemente mejorado
2) para mi las transferencias de discos 78 deben estar en mono.
3) hay algo muy desagradable en la transferencia, y es la inconstancia
del ruido residual, cuando el volumen baja, este decrese, cuando el
volumen se eleva el ruido tambien, prefiero un ruido residual
constante.
Pablo.
Romy the Cat
paralyzes or to die? I hope then the dirt will stop vandalize
historical recordings. The asshole has switched from selling speakers
from van and form trading those silver coins from WTC to the marketing
of the itchy recordings to the ignorant public. Despicable!
Steve Emerson
<96c6ee2c-8177-47cf...@l18g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
Bad manners, Romy. Whatever you might think of his work, Mr Rose has
done nothing to elicit flaming and foul-mouthed language. Furthermore,
impersonating somebody with Tourette Syndrome is not going to persuade
the audience.
SE.
Steve Emerson
<5d75df09-3dfb-4366...@o18g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
pianomaven <1pian...@gmail.com> wrote:
Supplying a richer and more detailed cello sound, and therefore an
augmented listening experience, may not "tell us things about Casals's
Bach that we didn't know before" -- but that serves only to show that
the said criterion is a partial and faulty one.
SE.
jrsnfld
> In article
> <5d75df09-3dfb-4366-8f3e-bf5bdb3a3...@o18g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
Better detailed sound does "tell us things" about Casals' playing,
about how his fingers and arms manipulated the strings and bow, which
means it tells us something about how he was responding to Bach.
Subtle, for sure, but meaningful to those who know such mechanics are
essential and instinctive extensions of the player's mental
relationship to the music.
Having said that, though, I'll identify myself as a Philistine: I like
better sound, but I can't remember an instance in which I spent any
money to upgrade a recording I already had.
--Jeff
Gerard
>
> I'm listening the mp3 sample:
> 1) cello sound was incredible improved.
> 2) I think that 78 rpm transfers must be in true mono
> 3) if the sample is a guide, there something that is very irritating,
> when the cello goes down in volume, surface noise was down, when the
> cello rise up in volume, the surface noise raise up with it, I prefer
> a constant residual noise.
>
>
> Since my english is not so good, I would write the same in spanish.
Why?
Most people here don't speak or understand more Spanish than "si' and "de nada"
;-)
Steve de Mena
If Tom's position is that one should work from the best available
source, such as a master tape or metal master, I agree wholeheartedly.
The fact that an in house engineer (such as EMI) produced a lousy
transfer of recording "x" from a master tape and someone made a better
sounding transfer of "x" from an LP doesn't invalidate that statement.
Steve
Ed Romans
.
>
> The fact that an in house engineer (such as EMI) produced a lousy
> transfer of recording "x" from a master tape and someone made a better
> sounding transfer of "x" from an LP doesn't invalidate that statement.
>
but why the assumption that it is a lousy transfer rather than a
problem with the mastertape?
Ed
Kip Williams
It doesn't hurt anything, and it may add to someone's understanding.
Kip W
Gerard
And it does not make much sense. Like most posts of course.
Kip Williams
What doesn't make sense? If you mean the post, it makes sense to me. If
you mean the translation, then just pass it by. As I say, it doesn't
hurt you by being in there, and it's possible that someone else in the
group might be able to understand better what he wrote in English by
referring to the Spanish.
Kip W
Gerard
Discussing it makes even less sense.
pianomaven
Clearly you have no arguments to proffer. Which simply makes my
position more tenable, of course.
> You can squeal all you like, you won't get many converts.
Squeal?
That is not the noise I make, any more than it is the noise you make,
which I hear as a bleat, actually.
Converts? Never cared for religion frankly. So, I am not trying to
convert anyone to my way of thinking, or hearing. Just trying to get
people to open their own ears. That is often a very difficult task, of
course. There are none so deaf as those who will not hear.
TD
pianomaven
I disagree completely, Don. His work is exemplary, in my opinion.
TD
pianomaven
> On Feb 11, 5:56 pm, wkasimer <wkasi...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 11, 5:49 pm, "John Wiser" <ceec...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > What a shame that EMI's end product stinks.
>
> > > Not always - just most of the time. Perhaps we may think of it as
> > > operator error. Bryan Crimp first came to my attention with dismal
> > > transfers of early EMI chamber music by Elgar for a now unrecalled
> > > small label. His results lived up to his name. Subsequent experiences
> > > of his work compel me to think that it doesn't matter how close you get
> > > to primary sources, without ear and imagination nothing can be done.
>
> > Exactly. I have a handful of EMI discs transferred by competent
> > engineers (e.g. Alexander Kipnis' Brahms, transferred by Marston), and
> > the results are fine. EMI's problem isn't the material at their
> > disposal, it's their choice of engineers. They've had at least two or
> > three cracks at the Casals Bach Suites, and it's absurd that their
> > results have been so inferior to the competition.
>
> > Bill
>
> > > JDW- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Yes that right - the trio of engineers (I think all Brits) who worked
> on the 97 Callas Edition (which I have mentioned before)
Yes you have, Dickey. You seem to go on and on and on about La Callas.
Most opera queens do, I have found. Never bothered my friend the late
John Ardoin, the singer's personal friend and ardent fan, who sold off
ALL of his massive LP collection of Callas as soon as EMI released her
work on CD. Incidentally, Ardoin heard Callas live many many times
over her career, a pleasure no doubt denied to a little puppy like
you. (LOL)
TD
pianomaven
> In article
> <5d75df09-3dfb-4366-8f3e-bf5bdb3a3...@o18g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
You know full well, Steve, that it is entirely possible to twiddle
dials and knobs and levers in such a way as to turn Casals' cello into
a doublebass if the engineer so desires.
I distrust Rose utterly. He's an amateur playing at things he thinks
he knows but doesn't.
If he wanted to do something for cello fans instead of re-re-re-re-re-
transfering the Casals Bach Suites, of which there are many existing
versions on sale, there are oceans of Maurice Marechal, for example,
he could transfer which would shed greater light on the performance of
cello music in the early 20th Century.
TD
pianomaven
So, please tell us which manipulation of the bow and the strings
through which finger and arm have "told you something" you didn't
already know.
Generalities simply don't cut it in this argument.
TD
pianomaven
This is a VERY weak argument, Ed. It is highly dubious to presume or
assume that a mastertape is faulty. You don't know that. You can't
know that. Only the engineer on site at EMI, for example, will know
that.
TD
ivanmaxim
>
> - Show quoted text -
Your friend John Ardoin did the right thing - buying the Callas CDs
"as soon as they came out" was the proper thing to do since the first
CD issues are the closest to the sounds of the first LP editions. I
wasn't discussing that issue though, was I???? I was discussing the 97
Callas Edition which was the edition the enginners screwed up. If you
weren't so busy trying to show me up, you would have read what I was
saying. Wagner fan
Kip Williams
So stop discussing it. You seem to have more of a problem with it than
anyone else, and all you have to do to make the problem go away is stop
dwelling on it.
Kip W
Romy the Cat
> I distrust Rose utterly. He's an amateur playing at things he thinks
> he knows but doesn't.
>
> If he wanted to do something for cello fans instead of re-re-re-re-re-
> transfering the Casals Bach Suites, of which there are many existing
> versions on sale, there are oceans of Maurice Marechal, for example,
> he could transfer which would shed greater light on the performance of
> cello music in the early 20th Century.
Pianomaven,
your voice is in a minority at this forum, unfortunately. It is not
that Rose is amateurish. He is a professional con-artist and he is
very ignorant about Sound, this is why I trashed the CDs that I
ignorantly bought from him – his mp3 file were fine but his full
bandwidth CD were unspeakable crap. On a personal note – he is very
dirty scam. I have received a number of emails with coupes of Rose’s
correspondence from people with whom he was associated and who walked
away from that dirt. The emails are clearly indicate that Rose treat
his operation as an abstract commodity and that he absolutely
indifferent if he sell historical “stolen” recording or if it would be
fall out of track suck of potato. He is try do not know what he does
in music and in audio and he just taking advantage that most of this
client are not very informed people with very minimalistic reference
points in audio. He does not do anything “for cello fans”. He is
paying his mortgage by drooling saliva online in front of Morons, it’s
it. The dirt shall be taking as serious as a whore who do it’s service
at train station’s restroom. Pay attention that any single cretin who
violently support Rose at this forum is unspeakable idiot. I think it
is very indicative. Also, pay attention how he behaved when somebody
question his results. As far as I concern, the dirt like Rose need to
be literally slaughtered and eradicated like a horrible plague.
pianomaven
That, I believe, is his advice to you, Kippy.
TD
ivanmaxim
>
> - Show quoted text -
Don gave you specific examples of why he thinks Crumps work was
deficient and all you can come up wth is that??? Have you heard the
recording he references - both the 78s and Crumps remasters??? Why do
you think he is wrong??? Do you have ANYTHING specific to say about
music other than the vague generalities you posted above??? wagner fan
ivanmaxim
Wow - I'm sure Tom really appereciates having a sociopath like you
agree with him. This is hysterical! Wagner fan
pianomaven
> On Feb 12, 9:26 am, pianomaven <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 11, 6:39 pm, Dontaitchic...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 11, 4:49 pm, "John Wiser" <ceec...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > [snip]
>
> > > > Not always - just most of the time. Perhaps we may think of it as
> > > > operator error. Bryan Crimp first came to my attention with dismal
> > > > transfers of early EMI chamber music by Elgar for a now unrecalled
> > > > small label. His results lived up to his name. Subsequent experiences
> > > > of his work compel me to think that it doesn't matter how close you get
> > > > to primary sources, without ear and imagination nothing can be done.
>
> > > > JDW
>
> > > Total agreement. Brian Crimp's 78 transfer work is deficient.
> > > Shrill, thin, tonally emaciated. Those of us who own the original
> > > records and can compare and know. As you clearly know too.
>
> > I disagree completely, Don. His work is exemplary, in my opinion.
>
> > TD- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Don gave you specific examples of why he thinks Crumps work was
> deficient and all you can come up wth is that?
His name is Bryan Crimp.
I see NO specific examples. Just descriptions, as in "shrill, thin,
tonally emaciated".
TD
pianomaven
\
> Wow - I'm sure Tom really appereciates having a sociopath like you
No, YOU are hysterical.
First of all, you might learn to spell appreciate.
Secondly, you should know I can never make out what language the
poster you reference is speaking. Clearly it is not English. So, I
naturally pass over it.
Move on, cumrag.
Or do you just want me to piss on you again?
TD
ivanmaxim
You're evading the issue and you know it - but if you don't want to
actually refure what Don said we understand. Wagner fan
ivanmaxim
Oh Tom you still don't get the concept of a typo - you had that
problem here once before.
This forum can actually be a learning experience - if you weren't so
stubborn and hidebound you may just be able to take advantage of it .
Wagner fan
Steve Emerson
<efe64d4b-968e-4013...@o14g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
pianomaven <1pian...@gmail.com> wrote:
My remarks had nothing to do with Rose.
SE.
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:MO6dncuNcJ979cvQ...@giganews.com:
> If Tom's position is that one should work from the best available
> source, such as a master tape or metal master, I agree wholeheartedly.
>
> The fact that an in house engineer (such as EMI) produced a lousy
> transfer of recording "x" from a master tape and someone made a better
> sounding transfer of "x" from an LP doesn't invalidate that statement.
Indeed, although in this case I'll stick to my Naxos set for the time being.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:99960a41-c57b-4610-b164-e8e75e82faf3@
24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
> Yes that right - the trio of engineers (I think all Brits) who worked
> on the 97 Callas Edition (which I have mentioned before) screwed it up
> royally - details are readily and in some detail available on the
> Internet from a number of sources. The real tragedy is this dead woman
> has been a cash cow for EMI for years and they treat her recordings so
> badly. OTOH the later 2007 ERMI Callas Verdi Heroines is a great
> transfer - warm and beautiful. Unfortunately they screwed that up by
> not having the original LP contents plus some fillers but they have
> anumber of selections from different LPs. The way to hear them is in
> the Japanese complete recital edition which I got on Ebay - each CD
> matches the original LPs and the transfers are gorgeous. Wagner fan
I imagine you're familiar with Bob Seletsky's "Choices" page? He refers to
a "15-disc Japanese EMI set from 1996 [which] already reflects original LP
content and order and is well remastered." (I'm pleased to see that the
Gui "Parsifal" on Virtuoso, which I bought at Music Discount Centre in The
Strand for about $20 twenty years ago, is his preferred edition for the
complete-as-given performance.) Absent the late John Ardoin, I would turn
to Bob's critiques as the most helpful guides for Callas purchases.
Bob Harper
poorer source sounds better than the one from the better source. Best
source + best transfer is the gold standard, of course.
Bob Harper
ivanmaxim
> ivanmaxim <ivanmax...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
Yes but Ardoin was relatively useless regarding the quality of the
transfers - he is interesting regarding the performances themsleves- I
have his Callas books and also the 4 hour plus long radio program
where he talks about her sad final days. But Seletsky really is the
place to go for a really detailed history of the Callas transfers. As
a matter of act, I made Bob a copy of that 15 CD Japanese set!!
Wagner fan
ivanmaxim
> On 2/12/11 3:03 AM, Steve de Mena wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 2/11/11 3:34 PM, John Wiser wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
No question - its the end result that counts regardless of the source.
Who cares if EMI has the master tape if they don't know how to
properly transfer to CD??? Wagner fan
pianomaven
Refure?
TD
pianomaven
Funny. I thought we were discussing his Bach Casals Cello Suites.
Perhaps I have stumbled into the wrong thresd?
No, I didn't. I checked.
TD
ivanmaxim
Let me help you - it should be "refute"
Now that your transparent attempt to get out of the fact that you
really have nothing to say about the transfer matter which Don
discusses has failed- you may leave. Wagner fan
pianomaven
> On Feb 12, 1:21 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > ivanmaxim <ivanmax...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
> > letters to be typed in news:99960a41-c57b-4610-b164-e8e75e82faf3@
> > 24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
>
> > > Yes that right - the trio of engineers (I think all Brits) who worked
> > > on the 97 Callas Edition (which I have mentioned before) screwed it up
> > > royally - details are readily and in some detail available on the
> > > Internet from a number of sources. The real tragedy is this dead woman
> > > has been a cash cow for EMI for years and they treat her recordings so
> > > badly. OTOH the later 2007 ERMI Callas Verdi Heroines is a great
> > > transfer - warm and beautiful. Unfortunately they screwed that up by
> > > not having the original LP contents plus some fillers but they have
> > > anumber of selections from different LPs. The way to hear them is in
> > > the Japanese complete recital edition which I got on Ebay - each CD
> > > matches the original LPs and the transfers are gorgeous. Wagner fan
>
> > I imagine you're familiar with Bob Seletsky's "Choices" page? He refers to
> > a "15-disc Japanese EMI set from 1996 [which] already reflects original LP
> > content and order and is well remastered." (I'm pleased to see that the
> > Gui "Parsifal" on Virtuoso, which I bought at Music Discount Centre in The
> > Strand for about $20 twenty years ago, is his preferred edition for the
> > complete-as-given performance.) Absent the late John Ardoin, I would turn
> > to Bob's critiques as the most helpful guides for Callas purchases.
> Yes but Ardoin was relatively useless regarding the quality of the
> transfers - he is interesting regarding the performances themsleves
What a ludicrous point. You can't tell what the performances are
without the recordings THEMSELVES..
What CAN be happening to your little mind? Or your little fingers, one
has to ask?
TD
ivanmaxim
>
> - Show quoted text -
Christ are you stupid. Ardoin discusses the performances - how Callas
sounded, her musical choices, her conductors, the performing editions
- you know all that stuff that is beyond your understanding. But he
doesn't discuss how some of the transfers are off-pitch or are missing
material or have material that doesn't actually come from that
performance. You may not think that is important - others do - do you
think your senile mind can comprehend that??? Christ - I know you're
old but not all old people are so damned dumb. Wagner fan
pianomaven
>Christ - I know you're old but not all old people are so damned dumb.
One would be hard put to tell if one looked at you, cumrag. You're
just about the dumbest opera queen I have ever encountered of any
age.
But don't fret. Socal Security will keep you in bread and water very
soon, if it hasn't clicked in already. Tgen you can spend your
declining years clutching your Japanese Callas CDs (this image has me
roaring with laughter) to your wizzened breast. Along with all your
Judy Garland memorabilia, of course.
TD
ivanmaxim
Right - instead of confronting the issues you come back with the same
old garbage - I really think it must be some kind of second childhood
thing. Thats your schtick - when you get boxed in by your own
ignorance you strike back with the same old insults.
Reality check Tom - you may have bamboozled other people in your life
about your alleged knowledge about music but its not working here and
there's not a damned thing you can do about it except strike back with
personal linsults. Everything you know is right and if anyone
disagrees they must be wrong. You don't have anything substantial to
back up your opinions but that doesn't matter. What an ignorant way to
go through life
You do it here over and over - a pathetic aging lonely old fraud who
puts on other posters his own sick fantasies. A truly revolting and
pathetic creature with not a shred of poise or self-respect,
I know all this is for naught because if you agreed you would realize
that your life is a wreck - lonely, bitter and pathetic. Unable to
think clearly anymore - waiting for the end. Hopefully you'll be
relieved soon. Wagner fan
Steve Emerson
<ee005938-1ab5-45ae...@j9g2000prj.googlegroups.com>,
pianomaven <1pian...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 12, 11:49 am, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <efe64d4b-968e-4013-8203-1f3d275c9...@o14g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> > pianomaven <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Feb 12, 12:26 am, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <5d75df09-3dfb-4366-8f3e-bf5bdb3a3...@o18g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > > > pianomaven <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Feb 11, 6:20 pm, Abbeddrose Bierce <ansermetn...@hotmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > On Fri, 11 Feb 2011 14:56:11 -0800 (PST), wkasimer
> >
> > > > > > <wkasi...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > > > > >results have been so inferior to the competition.
[quoting in full, the above reads:
"EMI's problem isn't the material at their
disposal, it's their choice of engineers. They've had at least two or
three cracks at the Casals Bach Suites, and it's absurd that their
results have been so inferior to the competition."]
> >
> > > > > > In what way?
> >
> > > > > Good question.
> >
> > > > > I wonder what the so-called better transfers have told us about Casals
> > > > > cello suites of Bach that we didn't know before. New notes, perhaps?
> > > > > Better intonation? Or do tgey simply want to listen to surface noise
> > > > > and believe tgey are listening to music?
> >
> > > > > Such questions are never answered, of course.
> >
> > > > Supplying a richer and more detailed cello sound, and therefore an
> > > > augmented listening experience, may not "tell us things about Casals's
> > > > Bach that we didn't know before" -- but that serves only to show that
> > > > the said criterion is a partial and faulty one.
> >
> > > You know full well, Steve, that it is entirely possible to twiddle
> > > dials and knobs and levers in such a way as to turn Casals' cello into
> > > a doublebass if the engineer so desires.
> >
> > > I distrust Rose utterly. He's an amateur playing at things he thinks
> > > he knows but doesn't.
> >
> > My remarks had nothing to do with Rose.
>
> Funny. I thought we were discussing his Bach Casals Cello Suites.
> Perhaps I have stumbled into the wrong thresd?
>
> No, I didn't. I checked.
Threads wander. Mr. Kasimer wrote that in the Bach Suites, EMI's
"results have been so inferior to the competition." Look above, it's
there. Competition being plural (very). In reply, you made a
generalization about "the so-called better transfers," i.e., the
non-EMI, and plural again -- with no specific mention of Rose.
That's where I came in.
SE.
Gerard
> I know all this is for naught because if you agreed you would realize
> that your life is a wreck - lonely, bitter and pathetic. Unable to
> think clearly anymore - waiting for the end. Hopefully you'll be
> relieved soon. Wagner fan
This is over the top.
You can stop this.
ivanmaxim
Yes you are right - I will cease!!!! for now..... Wagner fan
Steve de Mena
Why not put pressure on these 3rd parties to license the best source
available?
Steve
pianomaven
> On Feb 12, 4:01 pm, pianomaven <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 12, 2:30 pm, ivanmaxim <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >Christ - I know you're old but not all old people are so damned dumb.
>
> > One would be hard put to tell if one looked at you, cumrag. You're
> > just about the dumbest opera queen I have ever encountered of any
> > age.
>
> > But don't fret. Socal Security will keep you in bread and water very
> > soon, if it hasn't clicked in already. Tgen you can spend your
> > declining years clutching your Japanese Callas CDs (this image has me
> > roaring with laughter) to your wizzened breast. Along with all your
> > Judy Garland memorabilia, of course.
>
> > TD
>
> Right - instead of confronting the issues you come back with the same
> old garbage - I really think it must be some kind of second childhood
> thing.
There IS no issue. That's your problem.
TD
pianomaven
Frankly, Steve, I have been listening to EMI's transfers of these
recordings for the better part of 50 odd years.
I have also listened to other transfers. More recent ones, done by
amateurs, albeit gifted and dedicated ones, for Naxos, for example.
Nothing I have heard has changed my mind about Casals and his Bach. I
have heard no new notes, none of the revelations predicted and
exclaimed and touted by various posters here. It's the same story.
Rose cannot and will not find any revelations. He may, of course,
alter the sound to suit what he THINKS was the Casals sound. But
that's not the same thing, is it? If you paint a Cadillac pink, it's
still a Cadillac, if much more garish.
TD
pianomaven
No he can't. He's a sour old opera queen whose own bitterness and
misery is projected on the lives of others.
He may even say he will stop, but he won't.
TD
pianomaven
My point precisely, Steve.
EMI has done this with Stuart Brown's Testament label. They have a
real need for money these days. Just make them an offer they can't
refuse. They have little interest in all this old stuff anyway.
TD
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:yLadnVdTUMIJtsrQ...@giganews.com:
How about if the pressure were positive, such as lowering the license fees?
Steve Emerson
<ea673390-5019-4c6e...@u17g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
pianomaven <1pian...@gmail.com> wrote:
Good, now that the Rose confusion is out of the way, we're proceeding.
> I have also listened to other transfers. More recent ones, done by
> amateurs, albeit gifted and dedicated ones, for Naxos, for example.
Ward Marston is an amateur? That's a novel suggestion.
SE.
pianomaven
What's novel about it? Is he a professional engineer? Where has he
worked in that capacity?
This is not to say that he is not both gifted and dedicated, Steve.
TD
operafan
other transfers of this recording in a long time. But this one was
good enough to keep me focused on the music and the performance
instead of on the impaired sound quality. So I think it's a good job.
O
<967fa783-9eb9-4f70...@s18g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,
pianomaven <1pian...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I have also listened to other transfers. More recent ones, done by
> > > amateurs, albeit gifted and dedicated ones, for Naxos, for example.
> >
> > Ward Marston is an amateur? That's a novel suggestion.
>
> What's novel about it? Is he a professional engineer? Where has he
> worked in that capacity?
He does sound engineering. He gets paid for it. According to the
NCAA, he lost his amateur standing and now cannot engineer for any US
college or university.
>
> This is not to say that he is not both gifted and dedicated, Steve.
>
Both points are indisputable.
-Owen
ivanmaxim
> In article
> <967fa783-9eb9-4f70-a024-7ac9c8f9b...@s18g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,
>
> pianomaven <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I have also listened to other transfers. More recent ones, done by
> > > > amateurs, albeit gifted and dedicated ones, for Naxos, for example.
>
> > > Ward Marston is an amateur? That's a novel suggestion.
>
> > What's novel about it? Is he a professional engineer? Where has he
> > worked in that capacity?
>
> He does sound engineering. He gets paid for it. According to the
> NCAA, he lost his amateur standing and now cannot engineer for any US
> college or university.
>
>
>
> > This is not to say that he is not both gifted and dedicated, Steve.
>
> Both points are indisputable.
>
> -Owen
Correct on all points - arguably the best transfer engineer around and
an awfully nice guy as well. Wagner fan
Steve Emerson
<967fa783-9eb9-4f70...@s18g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,
pianomaven <1pian...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I have also listened to other transfers. More recent ones, done by
> > > amateurs, albeit gifted and dedicated ones, for Naxos, for example.
> >
> > Ward Marston is an amateur? That's a novel suggestion.
>
> What's novel about it? Is he a professional engineer? Where has he
> worked in that capacity?
When somebody has a thriving freelance career, it's specious to claim he
isn't a "professional."
SE.
Roger Kulp
> On Feb 11, 9:53 am, wkasimer <wkasi...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 11, 9:58 am, Andrew Rose <and...@pristineaudio.com> wrote:
>
> > > I was already familiar with issues on both
> > > EMI and Naxos (the latter a considerable improvement on the former), but
> > > neither offers the listener the full-bodied tone of Casals' cello, the
> > > crispness of his sound, the sense of immediacy and clarity which lay
> > > hidden in these recordings for so many decades.
>
> > I'm listening to your transfer via your site. While I agree that your
> > transfer is very, very good, and certainly superior to the EMI and
> > Naxos transfers, those are hardly the best transfers of these
> > recordings. Both the Pearl and Opus Kura produced excellent
> > transfers; my personal favorite is the Opus Kura, but it does have
> > considerably more surface noise than either your transfer or Seth
> > Winner's on Pearl.
>
> > Bill
>
> We who collect 78s know well what great variations there can be in
> the sound -- the tonal quality, and even yes, the detail and the
> audible notes -- between various pressings. From the stampers used,
> from the material used, from the originating company (noisy HMVs
> opposed to much quieter Victors). I've been working with 78 rpm
> records for 50 years and own about 20,000 of them. I know what I'm
> talking about.
>
> It is fatuous and ignorant to say that any and every transfer of any
> and every shellac record can only have the same sound and musical
> details. And anyone who's worked with 78s knows it.
>
> Don Tait
Which is just a polite way of saying what Abbeddrose just did a couple
of messages down..
I couldn't agree more,Don.
Don't forget the difference between scroll Victors,and later Victor
pressings,the difference between both HMVs,Victors,and German
Electrolas.What holds true for vinyl,holds true for 78s,no matter how
early they are.
I am curious about something.You say you have 20.000 78s.Is this
counting records in sets individually,or counting them as titles,where
you count an album of one work,like the Toscanini Shostakovich
"Leningrad" Symphony on Studio and Arts on 11 records as one item,or
title,as I would.?
I found about three dozen very interesting 78s last week,including the
very first Henry Hadley/New York Philharmonic Ginn "Music Education
Series"record I have ever seen,the acoustic excerpts of the
Tchaikovsky #4,with Karl Muck and the BSO,the acoustic "Unfinished",by
Stokowski and The PO (I have the complete acoustic concerto with
Rachmaninoff,the only other complete acoustic PO work I have.),the
Seigfreid Idyll by Muck,and The Berlin State Opera Orchestra
(Victor),Semirande Overture by The BBC Wireless Symphony,first one of
those for me,A Rudolf Ganz (RCA 7290),a Sigmund Romberg (11-9222 with
the Offenbach.Had "Dinner Music" for ages,nothing else.),that fun
little 1922 Victor acoustic trifold album of "health exercises",a set
of orchestrations by Ardon Cornwell and The RCA Victor Symphony
Orchestra made just for schools in the late 1940s (I have a similar
set with instruments of the orchestra by Sir Malcolm Sargeant.),and a
private issue 78 by Johann Hultman,Columbia "flag"era,but a white
label,I just sent off to the main university in Helsinki.
Roger
Dontait...@aol.com
> On Feb 11, 3:12 pm, Dontaitchic...@aol.com wrote:
[snip]
> > We who collect 78s know well what great variations there can be in
> > the sound -- the tonal quality, and even yes, the detail and the
> > audible notes -- between various pressings. From the stampers used,
> > from the material used, from the originating company (noisy HMVs
> > opposed to much quieter Victors). I've been working with 78 rpm
> > records for 50 years and own about 20,000 of them. I know what I'm
> > talking about.
>
> > It is fatuous and ignorant to say that any and every transfer of any
> > and every shellac record can only have the same sound and musical
> > details. And anyone who's worked with 78s knows it.
>
> > Don Tait
>
> I couldn't agree more,Don.
>
> Don't forget the difference between scroll Victors,and later Victor
> pressings,the difference between both HMVs,Victors,and German
> Electrolas.What holds true for vinyl,holds true for 78s,no matter how
> early they are.
>
> I am curious about something.You say you have 20.000 78s.Is this
> counting records in sets individually,or counting them as titles,where
> you count an album of one work,like the Toscanini Shostakovich
> "Leningrad" Symphony on Studio and Arts on 11 records as one item,or
> title,as I would.?
No. It's counting them individually. And I should emphasize that the
number I've supplied is just a very rough estimate.
I take the number of records in a 78 set as individual discs. Thus:
Mengelberg's NYPhil-Sym. set of Beethoven Eroica: 14 sides. Seven
records. My RCA test pressings of Toscanini's Shostakovich 7: 11
records. Like your set from another source, I gather. So in neither
case, one album set counting as one.
> I found about three dozen very interesting 78s last week,including the
> very first Henry Hadley/New York Philharmonic Ginn "Music Education
> Series"record I have ever seen,the acoustic excerpts of the
> Tchaikovsky #4,with Karl Muck and the BSO,the acoustic "Unfinished",by
> Stokowski and The PO (I have the complete acoustic concerto with
> Rachmaninoff,the only other complete acoustic PO work I have.),the
> Seigfreid Idyll by Muck,and The Berlin State Opera Orchestra
> (Victor),Semirande Overture by The BBC Wireless Symphony,first one of
> those for me,A Rudolf Ganz (RCA 7290),a Sigmund Romberg (11-9222 with
> the Offenbach.Had "Dinner Music" for ages,nothing else.),that fun
> little 1922 Victor acoustic trifold album of "health exercises",a set
> of orchestrations by Ardon Cornwell and The RCA Victor Symphony
> Orchestra made just for schools in the late 1940s (I have a similar
> set with instruments of the orchestra by Sir Malcolm Sargeant.),and a
> private issue 78 by Johann Hultman,Columbia "flag"era,but a white
> label,I just sent off to the main university in Helsinki.
Congratulations on your finds! And here's a Sigmund Romberg Victor
to look for if you don't have it: 11-9221, Romberg's arrangement (with
"his orchestra") of The Stars and Stripes Forever. Sweet strings and
all. There might also have been a 45 of it; I'd have to look. It's a
good party record.
Don Tait
> Roger
pianomaven
Lots of people are "nice guys". You're not one of them. That means
then what, exactly?
TD
pianomaven
>
> pianomaven <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I have also listened to other transfers. More recent ones, done by
> > > > amateurs, albeit gifted and dedicated ones, for Naxos, for example.
>
> > > Ward Marston is an amateur? That's a novel suggestion.
>
> > What's novel about it? Is he a professional engineer? Where has he
> > worked in that capacity?
>
> When somebody has a thriving freelance career, it's specious to claim he
> isn't a "professional."
Hmmmmm.
Julian Assange, is, then, a "journalist", just to quote a recent
subject of some discussion?
TD
pianomaven
> It is fatuous and ignorant to say that any and every transfer of any
> and every shellac record can only have the same sound and musical
> details. And anyone who's worked with 78s knows it.
You may feel that it is fatuous and ignorant, but I would never have
thought you would so clearly twist my words.
Please take note, Don.
ANY transfer of ANY 78 RPM recording I have had the pleasure of
listening to has allowed the musical essence of that recording through
to my "ignorant" ears.
I keep open the challenge to any poster here, and that includes you,
Don.
Please indicate ONE note, ONE phrase, ONE rhythm in any original 78
RPM recording which has been transferred by EMI or Bryan Crimp - since
it is the latter's work you have so gratuitously besmirched here
without any supporting evidence - that is not in their transfer of
that recording.
I have offered this challenge before with respect to EMI's Schnabel.
Now, I would like to say you find something - Moiseiwitsch, for
example - which indicates that Bryan Crimp has misrepresented the art
of this pianist. A pianist whose discography he has published, a
musician he heard many times in the flesh, and whom he veritably
worships.
Go ahead.
I wait with bated breath, Don.
TD
Steve Emerson
<59e4ddfd-c437-4598...@d23g2000prj.googlegroups.com>,
pianomaven <1pian...@gmail.com> wrote:
If Julian Assange has a thriving career by dint of freelance writing or
broadcast reporting he's hired to do by reputable purveyors of
journalism, then he could be called a professional journalist.
Not knowing much about him, that's all I can tell you.
SE.
Bob Harper
Tom, you are nothing if not consistent--consistently obtuse, I should
say--in this matter.
No one has *ever* said that a note, or phrase, or rhythm was 'different'
in one transfer as opposed to another. What IS different is the
listener's ability to hear and/or take pleasure in hearing, those
features. That you refuse to admit that possibility is a source of
continuing amusement to me and others. Thanks for the wry smile you put
on my face every time this comes up.
Bob Harper
MiNe 109
Bob Harper <bob.h...@comcast.net> wrote:
Didn't someone find a note clipped because of bad editing in the
Schnabel? (Op 10/1?)
To answer Deacon literally, the EMI transfer represents a massive case
of time delay.
Stephen
pianomaven
This is not denied, Bob, as you know. Please don't twist my words,
which you can read here and in the archives.
Any listener may find pleasure in anything. Some like their ears to be
assaulted by surface noise from original 78 RPM recordings, others
don't.
This does not mean, however, that Bryan Crimp - the man villified by
Don Tait so summarily in his post - is a bad person, or incompetent,
or whatever, and some other so-called engineer (you must know that
Bryan is a real one, actually, as he worked in that capacity for EMI)
is a raving genius.
TD
pianomaven
> In article <lFS6p.651167$Bh.615...@en-nntp-12.dc1.easynews.com>,
Actually, there was also a slight fault in one of MOT's transfers for
Naxos, if I recall correctly.
> To answer Deacon literally, the EMI transfer represents a massive case of time delay.
Indeed. The delay in time for anyone to come up with evidence to
support the claims of superiority bandied about here so freely for the
Pearl transfers, or the Naxos, or the Dante, or the .......(substitute
any one you like).
TD
Peter Greenstein
"pianomaven" <1pian...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:d5a75d75-668e-
>Actually, there was also a slight fault in one of MOT's transfers for
>Naxos, if I recall correctly.
>TD
Yes, a sickly chord sequence in the first movement of Op.2, No. 3.
--
Peter Greenstein
http://www.wakefieldjazz.com/
Peer Gynt
> "pianomaven" <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:d5a75d75-668e-
In my copy of the EMI References box, the opening of Op 10 No 1 is
clipped. The initial attack is lacking and the first chord is faded
in. This does not occur on either of the other two Schnabel transfers
of the work in my possession - the Naxos and the Membran.
Jáns
(Peer Gynt?) I am sure that Sølveig and Anitra will be pleased to read
your comments:-)
Oscar
> On Feb 12, 10:28 pm, Steve Emerson wrote:
>
> > > I have also listened to other transfers. More recent ones, done by
> > > amateurs, albeit gifted and dedicated ones, for Naxos, for example.
>
> > Ward Marston is an amateur? That's a novel suggestion.
>
> What's novel about it? Is he a professional engineer? Where has he
> worked in that capacity?
>
Hmmm...
In 1991, legendary RCA producer John Pfeiffer http://tiny.cc/2ugfl ,
producer of Horowitz, Rubinstein, and Landowska, tapped Ward Marston
to effect disk-to-digital transfers for the Sergei Rachmaninoff
Complete Recordings 10 CD box http://tiny.cc/bcht7 the first digital
issue of these recordings. Is there a more prestigious project in all
of historical instrumental recording than transferring Rach's original
78's for the digital era? Pfeiffer also oversaw the massive Heifetz
and Toscanini Collections at the same time -- Marston handled 78
transfers for those series as well. Pfeiffer was definitely not an
amateur. So why did he choose Marston?
Go ahead.
I wait with bated breath, Tom.
Frank Berger
Deacon's definition of "professional" will no doubt come from same
dictionary he uses for "ant-semitism."
Gerard
>
> Deacon's definition of "professional" will no doubt come from same
> dictionary he uses for "ant-semitism."
In what dictionary did *you* find "ant-semitism"?
gggg...@gmail.com
> New release today:
>
>
> BACH Suites for Solo Cello
>
>
> Suite 1: Paris, 2 June 1938, Eng. M. Cailly, issued in Bach Society
> Volume 7, DB.3671-3673
>
> Suites 2 & 3: Abbey Road, London, 25 November 1936, issued in Bach
> Society Volume 6, DB.3399-3404
>
> Suites 4 & 5: Paris, 13 June 1939, Eng. M. Cailly, issued in Bach
> Society Volume 8, DB.6538-6540
>
> Suite 6: Paris, 3 June 1938, Eng. M. Cailly, issued in Bach Society
> Volume 7, DB.3674-3677
>
>
> Pablo Casals, Cello
>
>
> Web page:
> http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Chamber/PACM074.php
>
>
>
> Short Notes
>
> Long regarded as one of the finest recordings of the last century, Pablo
> Casals' legendary 1930s set of Bach's six Cello Suites is one of the
> pinnacles of this remarkable instrumentalist's distinguished career. The
> cellist had been playing them daily for almost 50 years and his often
> very personal interpretation is still the one by which others are judged.
>
> In this new XR remastering, these recordings can be heard literally as
> never before. Using the most advanced technology available, we have been
> able to strip away the decades to reveal a huge amount of hitherto
> unheard detail and nuance, bringing the listener closer to Casals than
> has ever been possible before. Set to be among our recordings of the
> year, it really does have to be heard to be believed.
>
>
>
>
>
> Notes on the transfers:
>
> When one considers all of the recordings made in the post-1925
> electrical recording era, but before the development of full frequency
> range recordings in the 1940s, there can be few instruments more suited
> to the restrictions of the technology at the time than the cello. The
> range of frequencies required to capture it well, thanks to its low
> register, generally falls within the capabilities of 1930 disc
> recording, and this makes it a prime candidate for XR remastering. I've
> already had considerable success with Casals - his 1938 recording of the
> Dvor�k Cello Concerto (PASC 246) beat all others, old and new, to become
> Gramophone's recommended recording of the work in February 2011.
>
> However, nothing prepared me for the possibilities lying hidden in the
> grooves of his Cello Suites recordings of 1936 to 1939, which have
> surpassed all expectations. I was already familiar with issues on both
> neither offers the listener the full-bodied tone of Casals' cello, the
> crispness of his sound, the sense of immediacy and clarity which lay
> hidden in these recordings for so many decades.
>
> homogeneity to the sound of the instrument - each suite was initially
> processed separately, using a common reference in order to iron out
> differences in the recording equipment and locations used during the
> recording sessions. Thereafter I brought them together to continue what
> was at times a tricky restoration - revealing so much musical detail
> also reveals much else that is unwanted. Occasionally this may still be
> heard, but it should not distract you from one of the most remarkable
> restorations it has been my pleasure to undertake.
>
>
>
> MP3 Sample - Suite #1: Pr�lude, Allemande & Courante
> http://tinyurl.com/PACM074
>
>
> You can read more in our newsletter: http://tinyurl.com/PANL04022011
>
>
> From this week's newsletter:
>
>
> Editorial - Casals' Bach: An unexpected surprise
>
>
> Sometimes the task of restoring remastering historic recordings is a
> reasonably straightforward one, the results almost entirely predictable.
> As our most recent transfer dates edge closer into the age of truly
> hi-fi recordings, in the late 1950s and into the early 1960s, there are
> fewer surprises and fewer disappointments. Even in the years which
> immediately preceded this the path is rocky - I have a recording of
> Mozart symphonies from around 1953 which was so shockingly badly made
> for LP issue that thus far it has entirely resisted any efforts to make
> it listenable in the 21st century.
>
> But recordings such as those we issue this week by Peter Katin, made in
> 1958 and 1959 by the exceptional talents then working for the UK Decca
> record company, were almost guaranteed successes the moment the stylus
> was lowered onto the records. Admittedly I made life a little easier for
> myself by the use of early 1970s pressings rather than the late 1950s
> originals, but I suspect that the differences would have been marginal.
> The music itself, once lifted from its vinyl sepulchre, proved largely
> unwanting of much in the way of XR-style resuscitation. The patient was
> still alive and breathing and in remarkably fit and youthful form after
> 52 years or so.
>
> Occasionally, however, my work throws up some real surprises. It's
> perhaps a little hard to believe, but even today with hundreds of albums
> remastered using the XR technique, I often have very little idea of the
> likely outcome of my work when I begin it. Sometimes things begin with
> great promise that is never quite realised, or at least not as initially
> expected. I'm usually searching for hidden sounds, musical frequencies
> buried within a recording, sonic secrets that have perhaps never been
> heard since the day of recording, and I suppose that sometimes they
> simply aren't there to be revealed - or perhaps they are so well
> concealed that we do not yet have the tools to unmask them.
>
> Every so often, though, this opposite is true, and I'm able to elicit a
> true sonic revelation, something that just makes you sit back and say
> "wow!" and "how?" and then mutter similarly monosyllabic responses that
> have no place in a newsletter such as this.
>
> Such an event took place this week. A few months ago I worked on Pablo
> Casals' famous 1937 recording of the Dvor�k Cello Concerto with the
> Czech Philharmonic Orchestra under George Szell (PASC246). It proved a
> surprising success to me at the time - the tonal range of the cello
> seems to be particularly well suited to XR remastering from recordings
> of this era - and I made a mental note at the time to return to Casals
> sooner rather than later.
>
> As is all too often the case, I got sidetracked by other music, became
> embroiled in the Furtw�ngler Bruckner series, and let the idea of more
> Casals quietly recede. Then in the last issue of Gramophone magazine a
> major review of all the recordings of the Dvor�k concert in the current
> catalogue concluded that the Casals, and specifically the XR-remastered
> Casals on Pristine, was after some 74 years the finest recording available:
>
> "The historic choice doubles as a first choice, a case where an early
> classic remains essentially musically unchallenged. Casals achieves
> pathos, drama and unspeakable poignancy, and the Czech PO responds
> vigorously to the young George Szell's alert direction"
>
> Time, perhaps, to make good on my intentions of September 2010 and
> tackle the most famous of all Casals' many recordings, the Bach Cello
> Suites.
>
> There was however one further, and final trigger. I was reading The
> Guardian newspaper online early last week and came across mention of a
> book by one Eric Siblin, called simply "The Cello Suites" .Siblin was,
> until he attended a recital of the Bach Suites, first and foremost a
> rock journalist, with little prior knowledge or experience of classical
> music. Yet the Bach captivated him, and quickly led him to the Casals
> recording and a musical investigation which ultimately led to a very
> readable book which interleaves biographies of both Bach and Casals with
> descriptive essays on the music, travelogue, interviews and other
> observations. Ultimately, though, it revolves around the Casals 78s.
>
> Recorded between 1936 and 1939, the Casals recordings served to catapult
> the Suites into the public conciousness. Despite decades of public
> performances by the great cellist, they still had something of a
> reputation of being dry, dusty technical exercises. Casals' recording
> changed that reputation for ever, and ensured that they would finally
> become a part of the core repertoire some two centuries or more after
> they had been written.
>
> As such these recordings have probably never been out of print.
> Certainly there have been multiple reissues on different labels and many
> efforts to remaster them. No surprises left to be had here then? Far
> from it. I've rarely been so completely astonished by what emerged from
> a recording as I have been these past few days. Some rough edges on a
> handful of sides aside, much of this sounds like it might have been
> recorded decades later - indeed when listening on a modestly capable
> hi-fi system designed to flatter rather than be overly analytical, you
> might listen to the first Suite and believe it to be a 1980s recording
> rather than something cut into wax three months before Hitler and
> Chamberlain signed the Munich Agreement.
>
> Thanks to the low register of the cello by comparison to many solo
> instruments there are considerably more harmonics captured within the
> frequency range of the 78rpm disc. Couple this with the ability of XR to
> dig into the upper frequencies, all too often filtered out (XR did
> originally stand for just this - Xtended Range), and it seems amazing
> things really are possible.
>
> To be sure I wasn't getting too carried away by this I put my efforts up
> against both the EMI release and the recent Naxos Historic issue (the
> latter being generally preferred). Both were worlds away. EMI had often
> bizarre background noise running through a distinctly grim and flat
> sound, whilst the Naxos - very well transferred it has to be said -
> offered none of the richness, the body, nor the upper end clarity that
> had been revealed here. The contrasts were quite amazing.
>
> So why do we need another release of this recording? I've seen it
> written on a number of occasions by a well-known former classical record
> producer that there's no point in continually working away on these
> recordings, that a Schnabel Beethoven Sonata is always going to have the
> same notes played in the same way regardless of how well it's been
> transferred or remastered, and that we should therefore be concentrating
> on recordings not previously issued or reissued.
>
> There are two answers to this. First and easiest is the business
> argument - put it simply recordings like this have remained in the
> catalogue because they continue to sell. It is highly unusual for a
> previously unissued recording to bring in much revenue unless, as in the
> case of the Stokowski Philadelphia Return Concert recording we issued
> last month (PASC264) it was already well-known through poor copies
> circulating in the 'underground'.
>
> But I think far more important than that is the opportunity that a
> remastering such as this brings to hear so much more of the
> performances, to find oneself so much more involved, to be able to hear
> for the first time the finest nuances of the playing one of the world's
> finest cellists in his masterpiece recording is what makes it all
> worthwhile. To put it another way: given the choice between listening to
> a fine modern recording on a top-end hi-fi system. or listening to the
> same thing of a system with socks stuffed into the loudspeakers, which
> would you choose?
>
> Have a listen to Casals' Bach Cello Suites - there's a nice long sample
> to download - because someone just removed the socks from your speakers.
>
> Andrew Rose, February 11th, 2011
>
>
> --
> Andrew Rose
>
> Pristine Classical: "The destination for people interested in historic
> recordings..." (Gramophone)
>
> www.pristineclassical.com
According to this article:
- Today, the recording sounds overly loose in terms of interpretation as well as, frankly, a little screechy. It does not display the disciplined fidelity to score or the perfect intonation of more recent recordings...
https://www.thenation.com/article/key-paul-elie/#