Re: Daniel Ben Pienaar

[Gerard]

Op 2021-09-05 om 22:09 schreef Dan Koren:

>
> WHAT AN IMBECILE !!!
>

Time for your next retirement.

[Herman]

NOW

[Mandryka]

I think these are going to be an interesting interpretations to explore, tense and turbulent.

[Herman]

On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 7:52:28 AM UTC+2, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

> On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 11:34:31 PM UTC-4, Mandryka wrote:
> > I think these are going to be an interesting
> > interpretations to explore, tense and turbulent.

> They are not "tense" or "turbulent" at all.
> Annoying, boring, mechanical, pedestrian.
>
> dk

Well, and Mandryka thinks different. He's an adult person. So stop trying to club people into having the same closed mind as you have. You're annoying, boring, mechanical and pedestrian in your taste.

[Mandryka]

I thought his Beethoven and Gibbons were rather good too.

[Herman]

On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 10:24:58 AM UTC+2, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

> We would like to see some evidence.
> And also the results of hearing tests.
>
> dk

There is no "we". It's just you. A very old man, who apparently forgot he was going away.

[Mandryka]

It was really just sampling at random which made me prick up my ears - 884 for example. He plays these sonatas like they’re dramatic songs. I’ve heard intimations of the style before - Trudelies Leonhardt for example. There’s something about what he does which makes me think of Erdmann too.

The problem is the piano, which sounds horrid. He’s not a great one for timbre and he’s not helped by having such an monochromatic instrument and/or recording. Dan once described his Beethoven as « boots on piano » and he’s right.

But there’s enough iconoclastic stuff in there from the point of view of conception, interpretation, to make me want to explore.

[Frank Berger]

Your instruction to Dan to change his behavior is actually worse than what he does, since he only expresses his opinions and does not, uselessly, tell people what to do or what to like. And telling Dan that Manddryka thinks different is also useless since he, and we all, know that. Why you insist on telling people that their opinions are "only" their opinions is completely beyond me.

[MiNe109]

Worth sampling. Wouldn't buy. The "hands separate" and broken chord
choices are a barrier for me, as are the long pedals which would be
worse with a longer-sounding piano.

The interpretations are interesting despite this.

[JohnGavin]

The above observation “he’s not a great one for timbre” has been my feeling too. One of the most repeated admonitions in the Rosina Lhevinne studio was “play to the bottom of the keys!” The idea was that no matter how soft the dynamic of the music one was always to touch the key bed, the point at which the key can’t go down any further. That guaranteed a resonant tone with evenness from one note to the next.

Pinnear’s weakness is precisely this, and it results in skittishness, or an unagreeably thin tone with no carrying power. His complete Gibbons recording demonstrates remarkably fast fingers, but what works for a recording mike doesn’t work in a concert hall.

[MiNe109]

On 9/7/21 11:53 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 10:54:51 AM UTC-4, MINe109 wrote:
>>

>> The interpretations are interesting despite this.
>

> Are you saying the food is "interesting"
> even though it does not taste good?

Yes.

> "Interesting" is relevant to research
> papers. In performing arts, one must
> do much better than just "interesting".

In that case, I change my mind: the text is accurately represented. Any
more than that is up to your taste.

[Mandryka]

One thing that Dan said seems to me absolutely right -- it's this:

"On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 8:15:11 PM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

> Let's be serious -- a good pianist would have
> never agreed to make a recording on that
> instrument. Don't you realize that if the
> piano bothers you, it should have also
> bothered Mr. Pienaar? After all, he is a
> "professional"."

I've just been listening to Michail Lifits play Shostakovich op 37 and the timbre on the record is so beautiful, it's almost more beautiful than most real pianos sound in concert! And here comes Pienaar and either he doesn't give a fuck about the sound, or he didn't have a choice about it or . . . and this would be "interesting" . . he got the sound he wanted.

[Mandryka]

Daniel Bent Penis.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <sh7ufn$rcf$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,

MiNe109 <pianof...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>The interpretations are interesting despite this.

Sianne Ngai has an interesting discussion of "interesting" in _Our
Aesthetic Categories_.

But I agree with your later implication: I'll listen to music out
of interest, even if I'm not especially appreciating it in various
ways.... Or I will sometimes anyway.

And despite telling myself that I was not (again) going to take a
thread about interpretations someone doesn't like as a prompt to
hear them, I ended up downloading Pienaar's Gibbons set after all!
(Haven't listened yet. Much cheaper on Qobuz than at Presto, fyi.)

[MiNe109]

Cheaper still on Spotify! I can hear the 'hammering' ("The woods so
wild") but this style preserves the polyphony and cross-rhythms. The
scale passages are exciting.

Lord Salisbury's Galliard has more competition thanks to Glenn Gould.
Again, clarity above all.

The Pavan loses the hammers, but clarity is sacrificed to a singing
style with blurry long pedals and what could be una corda fuzz tone. At
nearly eight minutes, it's more of a listen than Gould's presumably
no-repeats six minutes for both Pavan and Galliard.

[Mandryka]

I think what he does with Gibbons is expressive and graceful.

[MiNe109]

On 9/7/21 2:27 PM, Mandryka wrote:
> I think what he does with Gibbons is expressive and graceful.

The set as a whole is quite an accomplishment and a good case for an
unfamiliar repertoire on the piano.

[AB]

the problem is the piano. bad tuning so it sound like shit. but the playing is good though at times a bit driven. can't understand how a concert pianist would record on such a piano.

AB

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <sh8dds$6u2$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,

MiNe109 <pianof...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Cheaper still on Spotify! I can hear the 'hammering' ("The woods
>so wild") but this style preserves the polyphony and cross-rhythms.
>The scale passages are exciting.

$7.99....

I'll spend some more time with this Gibbons, but I have to say, the
opening already gave me plenty of "WTF?", and indeed the basic
*sound* of the instrument grates (on first impressions anyway).
Some nice little passages, delicately in the midst of various tempo
stretching... when the butcher knives are left in the holster for
the moment, it does sound especially pretty. But mostly not. What
it mostly sounds is lazy, but I don't know... I'll try it again
another time.

Frankly, I think this album motivated Steinway & Sons to commission
Alan Feinberg. :-)

[Mandryka]

I’ll tell you something I’ve learned about Pienaar’s recordings. They sound worse on good equipment. The worse the hifi the better they sound. I enjoy his stuff most through a little portable Bluetooth active speaker. But if I try any of it on monitors or electrostatics, class A amps and fancy DACs, you hear how bad they sounds.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <353437af-dbfb-4c00...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>I'll tell you something I've learned about Pienaar's recordings.
>They sound worse on good equipment. The worse the hifi the better
>they sound. I enjoy his stuff most through a little portable
>Bluetooth active speaker.

OK, well, I don't find myself away from nearly as much as before,
but I do still find myself in such a listening scenario sometimes....
Maybe I'll remember.

But quite the comment from someone who likes his recordings!

[JohnGavin]

On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 7:34:59 PM UTC-4, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

> No surprise here, however my ears don't need powering up
> the big EAR amps and listening through the big Sound Lab
> electrostatics to be able to tell Pienaar's sound is arguably
> the ugliest piano sound ever recorded. One can tell that
> even through the cheapest USB headphones.
>
> dk

I wonder what connoisseurs of beautiful piano tone production would think of this.

https://youtu.be/CALM132SgVc

[Mandryka]

Pienaar's piano techie is Clive Ackroyd, who works in London at the Royal Academy of Music

https://www.ackroydpianos.com/about-ackroyd-pianos


This makes me believe that he wants the piano sound he got.

[HT]

Op woensdag 8 september 2021 om 12:13:56 UTC+2 schreef JohnGavin:

Interesting example. It makes one wonder what a "good" piano tone is. The sound of Sander's Prokofiev is good enough, in my opinion, although it's not what I would call a beautiful tone. Kissin has perhaps a more beautiful tone, but that doesn't make his Prokofiev more interesting.

Henk

[Herman]

I don't whether you guys are basing all these grand utterances on piano tone on heavily compressed youtube videos, but that doesn't really make any sense.

[JohnGavin]

On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 9:01:11 AM UTC-4, Herman wrote:
> I don't whether you guys are basing all these grand utterances on piano tone on heavily compressed youtube videos, but that doesn't really make any sense.

I won’t make any grand utterances, but will use another compressed YouTube reference to sample Prokofiev’s own playing of his compositions. Listeners can judge for themselves.

https://youtu.be/WxGL9Qr-_8Y

Another compressed file example would be Sandor’s teacher, Bartok playing Scarlatti.

Let your ears be the judge. Also, maybe beautiful piano sound isn’t a priority for some.

Each to his own taste.

My own 2 cents is that both of the above are magical and scintillating.

[JohnGavin]

One thing I will say regarding piano sound and recordings. Just some people are photogenic and others aren’t, the same is true of pianists and recording microphones. The reason that this applies to pianists in particular is that piano sound is the most elusive sound to reproduce accurately. I was really surprised to hear Horowitz live twice in the 1970s and to realize that his sound worked so much better in a large hall then on any recordings. The same thing holds true for Michelangeli. No recordings have ever done justice to him. This is the reason why he basically hated recordings. So maybe Pinnear just doesn’t record that well. I’ve heard Sandor live……….. sorry to say that IMHO if he entered the music world now instead of the early 1940’s he would have a different career.

[Herman]

On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 3:35:59 PM UTC+2, JohnGavin wrote:
>
>
> Let your ears be the judge. Also, maybe beautiful piano sound isn’t a priority for some.
>
> Each to his own taste.
>
> My own 2 cents is that both of the above are magical and scintillating.

I agree that some youtube vids kan be 'scintillating'. All I was saying is it's not the ideal spot to judge what a pianist sounds like IRL. Even excellently engineered cd recordings can be deceptive in that respect.

[Mandryka]

On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 5:22:55 PM UTC+1, JohnGavin wrote:

This comment by John Gavin may be getting close to the heart of the matter

> > >
> The above observation “he’s not a great one for timbre” has been my feeling too. One of the most repeated admonitions in the Rosina Lhevinne studio was “play to the bottom of the keys!” The idea was that no matter how soft the dynamic of the music one was always to touch the key bed, the point at which the key can’t go down any further. That guaranteed a resonant tone with evenness from one note to the next.
>
> Pinnear’s weakness is precisely this, and it results in skittishness, or an unagreeably thin tone with no carrying power. His complete Gibbons recording demonstrates remarkably fast fingers, but what works for a recording mike doesn’t work in a concert hall.

What I want to say is that a colourful, even, resonant tone à la Rosina Lhevinne just isn’t what he wants to achieve.

[JohnGavin]

William Byrd, John Bull or Orlando Gibbons shouldn’t sound like Rachmaninov - if that’s what you mean, then I agree. But if you choose to play this stuff on the piano, IMO it should sound attractive in pianistic terms.

The Pinnear recording that I found a real let down is “The Long 18th Century” which could have been remarkable due to the great breadth of repertoire never done by a pianist. I think his complete Gibbons is much better. But words ultimately are ineffective in this situation. I would recommend either Kit Anderson’s DG recording or Alan Feinberg’s on the Steinway label for warmer more listenable realizations of this repertoire. Also, Mr. Pinnear could come out with something wonderful in the future.

[JohnGavin]

Correction: It is Kit Armstrong (not Kit Anderson)

[Frank Berger]

Longest thread ever about a pianist no one likes.

[Ricardo Jimenez]

On Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:03:02 -0400, Frank Berger
<frankd...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Longest thread ever about a pianist no one likes.

I like everything I have heard by him. I might even try his Schubert
sonatas. We Spotify users are so spendthrift in what we click on. I
think everybody here and that corpulent critic on Youtube will have a
longer happier life if they spend more time relishing what pleases
them than denouncing and moaning over what doesn't.

[daniel pienaar]

On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:29:00 PM UTC+1, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:03:02 -0400, Frank Berger
> <frankd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Longest thread ever about a pianist no one likes.

Intriguing thread. I like it.
Frank, not quite EVERYONE dislikes my playing - a short, superficial google search yields results like those below, if you will permit me the vanity - but your point is well taken.
A small matter of orthography: my first name is hyphenated (Daniel-Ben), the second name is Pienaar.
Well done for the playful variation on my name, Mandryka. It is of course not the first time someone makes that joke:)



http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2021/Feb/Schubert-sonatas-AV2425.htm



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.classicalwcrb.org/cd-of-the-week/2020-02-24/pienaars-expressive-pianism-stirs-up-the-1600s%3f_amp=true



http://pianofortephilia.blogspot.com/2013/06/daniel-ben-pienaar-piano-recital-20th.html?m=1



http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=24036.0



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mozart-piano-sonatas-cgdk9gdr277



https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/mozart-complete-piano-sonatas-0



https://www.classicstoday.com/review/daniel-ben-pienaar-scintillates-in-the-17th-century/



http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Mar14/Bach_WTC_AV2299.htm



https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/gibbons-complete-keyboard-works



https://www.rondomagazin.de/kritiken.php?kritiken_id=8294



https://www.clicmusique.com/schubert-douze-grandes-sonates-pour-piano-pienaar-p-106691.html



https://cultura.uol.com.br/radio/programas/o-que-ha-de-novo/2020/12/16/11_a-cornucopia-musical-de-daniel-ben-pienaar.html



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/wholeelephant.co.uk/2015/03/12/schrodingers-music/amp/



https://jessicamusic.blogspot.com/2011/01/leap-of-faith-aka-mozart-from-daniel.html?m=1

[AB]

[AB]

sounds like an American Steinway, thin treble, not very nice. one does not have to be 'connoisisseur of piano tone' to hear that....... almost has a Horowitz sound, though H's tone was fuller, especially in the treble.

AB

[HT]

Op donderdag 9 september 2021 om 19:37:09 UTC+2 schreef daniel pienaar:

> On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:29:00 PM UTC+1, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> > On Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:03:02 -0400, Frank Berger
> > <frankd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Longest thread ever about a pianist no one likes.
> Intriguing thread. I like it.
> Frank, not quite EVERYONE dislikes my playing - a short, superficial google search yields results like those below, if you will permit me the vanity - but your point is well taken.

<g> You definitely have a point:

> http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2021/Feb/Schubert-sonatas-AV2425.htm
> https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.classicalwcrb.org/cd-of-the-week/2020-02-24/pienaars-expressive-pianism-stirs-up-the-1600s%3f_amp=true
> http://pianofortephilia.blogspot.com/2013/06/daniel-ben-pienaar-piano-recital-20th.html?m=1
> http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=24036.0
> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mozart-piano-sonatas-cgdk9gdr277
> https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/mozart-complete-piano-sonatas-0
> https://www.classicstoday.com/review/daniel-ben-pienaar-scintillates-in-the-17th-century/
> http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Mar14/Bach_WTC_AV2299.htm
> https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/gibbons-complete-keyboard-works
> https://www.rondomagazin.de/kritiken.php?kritiken_id=8294
> https://www.clicmusique.com/schubert-douze-grandes-sonates-pour-piano-pienaar-p-106691.html
> https://cultura.uol.com.br/radio/programas/o-que-ha-de-novo/2020/12/16/11_a-cornucopia-musical-de-daniel-ben-pienaar.html
> https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/wholeelephant.co.uk/2015/03/12/schrodingers-music/amp/
> https://jessicamusic.blogspot.com/2011/01/leap-of-faith-aka-mozart-from-daniel.html?m=1

Henk

[Owen]

On 9/9/21 1:37 PM, daniel pienaar wrote:
> On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:29:00 PM UTC+1, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
>> On Thu, 9 Sep 2021 10:03:02 -0400, Frank Berger
>> <frankd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Longest thread ever about a pianist no one likes.
>
> Intriguing thread. I like it.
> Frank, not quite EVERYONE dislikes my playing - a short, superficial google search yields results like those below, if you will permit me the vanity - but your point is well taken.
> A small matter of orthography: my first name is hyphenated (Daniel-Ben), the second name is Pienaar.
> Well done for the playful variation on my name, Mandryka. It is of course not the first time someone makes that joke:)
>

A hush falls over the group as people realize: He's listening! (more
accurately, He's reading!)

Welcome to RMCR, Daniel-Ben Pienaar!

-Owen

[Herman]

On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 9:10:48 PM UTC+2, Owen wrote:
>
> >
> A hush falls over the group as people realize: He's listening! (more
> accurately, He's reading!)
>
> Welcome to RMCR, Daniel-Ben Pienaar!
>
> -Owen

Yet another occasion to realize that these bizarre grandiose pronouncements ("musical imbecility" pace DK) we make so easily from our armchair are way out of line.

[Mandryka]

So let me ask you, given that you're here, the sound, the timbre -- why do you want that distinctive D-BP sound?

(Thankyou for forgiving me the schoolboy penis joke!)

[daniel pienaar]

Thank you for your welcome, Owen, although I don't mean to stay on here, so feel free to throw caution to the wind! I don't often get to check these kinds of forums, but obviously I think they are a great thing. A constructive exchange of ideas from enthusiasts would be the best thing possible for piano playing, and an excellent balance to the style and content offered by the mainstream press. So I applaud all you gentlemen (where are the ladies?). For myself though, I do not intend to contribute here, since (doubtless to the dismay of Dan, Henk and others!!) I am too busy teaching my students and committing further capital sins on some standard and non-standard rep:))! Look out for my upcoming Byrd 2CD set and my Haydn cycle - or not, as the case may be...

[Bob Harper]

On 9/9/21 12:36 PM, Dan Koren wrote:

> If one doesn't like the food in a well reviewed
> restaurant, should one defer to the published
> reviews instead of drawing one's own
> conclusions?
>
> I couldn't care less what the reviews say about
> Mr. Pienaar's performances when my ears tell
> me otherwise.
>
> One also cannot ignore the fact many of the
> reviews he quotes come from the Gramophone
> or other British outlets.
>
> Mr. Pienaar is certainly welcome to this ng,
> however he should not expect to be treated
> with kid gloves.
>
> dk
>
Dan, his post did not sound like he expected to. He is apparently
comfortable in his own skin, an admirable quality. I suspect your
broadsides roll off him like water off a duck's back.

Bob Harper

[Frank Berger]

So says the moral compass of RMCR.

[Frank Berger]

On 9/9/2021 3:36 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 3:05:26 PM UTC-4, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:

> If one doesn't like the food in a well reviewed
> restaurant, should one defer to the published
> reviews instead of drawing one's own
> conclusions?
>
> I couldn't care less what the reviews say about
> Mr. Pienaar's performances when my ears tell
> me otherwise.
>
> One also cannot ignore the fact many of the
> reviews he quotes come from the Gramophone
> or other British outlets.
>
> Mr. Pienaar is certainly welcome to this ng,
> however he should not expect to be treated
> with kid gloves.
>
> dk
>

There you go again, expressing opinions which are your own!

[Frank Berger]

On 9/9/2021 4:55 PM, daniel pienaar wrote:

> Recorded piano sound is radically different depending on the piano you play on, who the technician happens to be, how it is recorded and what you play things back on. Obviously, as you sense, I am not that interested in the sound per se but in relative differences of touch, voicings, matters of accentuation, gesture and diction, experimenting with timings etc. Some people hear these things, and find it all 'too much' - others don't pick on them at all and find the playing mechanical or bland. I guess if an enveloping 'warmth' is a prerequisite for a listener, it will be easy for above-mentioned things not to register in playing here where that kind of generic niceness is not the basic palette. If anything each recording of mine has been an ad hoc project in avoiding the syrupy, over-engineered 'SOTA' piano sound that seems to be the current fashion, and in avoiding the standardised approach to technique and 'emoting' that that engenders - or maybe from which it has come to be engendered by the practices post WW2. Signing off:)
>

Mr. Pienaar, you seem to be a real gentleman; a mensch. You don't belong here.

[Mandryka]

On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 9:55:21 PM UTC+1, daniel pienaar wrote:

> Recorded piano sound is radically different depending on the piano you play on, who the technician happens to be, how it is recorded and what you play things back on. Obviously, as you sense, I am not that interested in the sound per se but in relative differences of touch, voicings, matters of accentuation, gesture and diction, experimenting with timings etc. Some people hear these things, and find it all 'too much' - others don't pick on them at all and find the playing mechanical or bland. I guess if an enveloping 'warmth' is a prerequisite for a listener, it will be easy for above-mentioned things not to register in playing here where that kind of generic niceness is not the basic palette. If anything each recording of mine has been an ad hoc project in avoiding the syrupy, over-engineered 'SOTA' piano sound that seems to be the current fashion, and in avoiding the standardised approach to technique and 'emoting' that that engenders - or maybe from which it has come to be engendered by the practices post WW2. Signing off:)

Thanks for the full response, which in fact surprised me a bit because you use a top piano technician who specialises in Steinways.

I wish you would play an old piano rather than a modern grand! That’s just my taste I guess, but I bet you’d get some ideas about touch, articulation etc from one.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <b29a1c1a-7d49-41a8...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>I wish you would play an old piano rather than a modern grand!

Heh, my thought on the comment about not prioritizing the sound is
that maybe he should design his own keyboards.... Wouldn't that
be fun? (And welcome, Daniel.)

[MiNe109]

Thanks for the non-standard repertoire! And for the interesting takes on
the standard works.

I feel like I'm ahead of the game simply recognizing some the composers
represented and having read a few of the works so your accomplishment is
admirable.

[Owen]

As they sometimes say, all publicity (good or bad) is good. I'm sure
quite a few people will check out some of your recordings just to hear
what the fuss is all about.

Feel free to drop in here any time you like. As you can see, diverse
opinions are welcome.

-Owen

[Herman]

On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 9:36:24 PM UTC+2, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 3:05:26 PM UTC-4, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:

> If one doesn't like the food in a well reviewed
> restaurant, should one defer to the published
> reviews instead of drawing one's own
> conclusions?
>
> I couldn't care less what the reviews say about
> Mr. Pienaar's performances when my ears tell
> me otherwise.
>
> One also cannot ignore the fact many of the
> reviews he quotes come from the Gramophone
> or other British outlets.
>
> Mr. Pienaar is certainly welcome to this ng,
> however he should not expect to be treated
> with kid gloves.
>
> dk

In the case of Pienaar you clearly haven't been "to the restaurant". You've heard some snippets on youtube.

The "I couldn't care less" attitude speaks volumes.

[HT]

Op donderdag 9 september 2021 om 22:30:17 UTC+2 schreef daniel pienaar:

"To my dismay" is perhaps too much. But I appreciated your short stay with us. I'm looking forward to your Byrd set.

Henk

[JohnGavin]

Being a forum on classical recordings, is it really out of line to discuss aspects of a recorded performance that one finds lacking in some way? I don’t think so. But where I would draw the line is at the point where the criticism becomes non- constructive, or worse, mean-spirited. The music critics that I like to read (Jed Distler for example) are always respectful of the performers they are focusing on , and articulate the points that they make with consideration and what feels like sense of careful introspection.

It reminds me of a story taken from a bio of Heifetz where the violinist confesses that he got into the habit of watching too much TV. The critics began to notice a slight decline in his playing, which caused him to bounce back into his old standard again. He admitted that it stung his ego, but expressed gratitude in the end.

[HT]

Op vrijdag 10 september 2021 om 12:04:35 UTC+2 schreef JohnGavin:

> Being a forum on classical recordings, is it really out of line to discuss aspects of a recorded performance that one finds lacking in some way? I don’t think so. But where I would draw the line is at the point where the criticism becomes non- constructive, or worse, mean-spirited. The music critics that I like to read (Jed Distler for example) are always respectful of the performers they are focusing on , and articulate the points that they make with consideration and what feels like sense of careful introspection.
>
> It reminds me of a story taken from a bio of Heifetz where the violinist confesses that he got into the habit of watching too much TV. The critics began to notice a slight decline in his playing, which caused him to bounce back into his old standard again. He admitted that it stung his ego, but expressed gratitude in the end.

John, there is a big difference between professional music criticism and RMCR. We are just a bunch of guys [sic!] airing opinions about whatever comes along, fortunately mostly about classical music. I agree that it would be nice if we all behaved with a certain decorum. But it may be too much to ask of us to be considerate and introspective. We are soccer fans rather than soccer players.

Henk

[Herman]

On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 12:04:35 PM UTC+2, JohnGavin wrote:
> Being a forum on classical recordings, is it really out of line to discuss aspects of a recorded performance that one finds lacking in some way? I don’t think so.

Neither do I.

>But where I would draw the line is at the point where the criticism becomes non- constructive, or worse, mean-spirited.

Same here. And I would add: dead predictable.

[Frank Berger]

On 9/10/2021 6:04 AM, JohnGavin wrote:
> Being a forum on classical recordings, is it really out of line to discuss aspects of a recorded performance that one finds lacking in some way? I don’t think so. But where I would draw the line is at the point where the criticism becomes non- constructive, or worse, mean-spirited.

And at that point you say, "Tsk, tsk, tsk, Dan, you are behaving badly. It's not nice, and not constructive, to call someone an imbecile."

OK.

Why is it "constructive" to say this to Dan?

[daniel pienaar]

Mandryka and Todd, it would be a mistake to assume that musicians have, by default, access to their ideal instruments, halls etc. for recordings. Almost no recordings nowadays are made under ideal conditions (if such a thing existed) unless the artist has real choice and access to corporate funding streams or private wealth (which, as you can imagine, I do not). Even then, we are still talking about the real world, and on the day of a recording any number of things may be short of just right. Of course, artists with 'corporate' level support might labour under different constraints (eg. big labels might limit repertoire choices, might have a 'house sound' or there might be weird power plays going on between grand old-school producers and engineers and aspiring musicians - something that often affects artistic decisions). But, that granted, it may simply be that certain artists' personalities and work do indeed fit naturally with how the more visible 'mainstream' things are generally funded and marketed now, and they may well have access to SOTA conditions.

Using decent-ish modern Steinways is a more-or-less neutral choice - it is not that I particularly like them, it is just that they respond reasonably accurately to the manipulations that I am interested in: like I said, details of relative differences in voicing, pedaling, different kinds of vertical dislocation between hands or notes in chords or contrapuntal textures, varieties of articulation, emphases, which notes are stretched or compressed, where stress falls in a phrase, tempo and dynamic fluctuations etc. etc. - and of course in the ideas that can be expressed using those tools.

(As I pointed out, some people find my obsessions with these things too 'interventionist', whereas others don't even notice them at all (perhaps because all they can hear is the 'de-prioritising' of blanket warmth and 'evenness' of the kind that a standard-issue, authoritarian, Rosina Lhevine-style technique would produce) and thus find my playing lacking in 'depth' (perhaps equating fleetness or speed with superficiality, to boot) - or boring, or outright incompetent. Others, still, find the detailing colourful and interesting, or (as you do, Mandryka) 'tense and turbulent'. That sort of spread is in the nature of aesthetic experience, as anyone who has eavesdropped on audience comments at any concert will know (unless an overwhelming consensus has previously been forged around the work of an artist - in which case many in the audience will predictably seek to perceive what they believe they are there to perceive)).

Of course there are always the vagaries of ears of the listener to take into account too regarding what they may or may not perceive... What and how a 28-year old hears (musically, psychologically - and medically, so to speak) will be worlds removed from what and how a 78-year old hears.

An apology for the looooong replies and to have intruded on your discussion, some might say inappropriately so - although it has been fun. Musicians should not interfere with their critics, but I guess on occasion a real conversation about the subject matter is more edifying than ad hominem invective. I really WILL now get out of your way (I already feel like one of those conductors with their endless farewell tours...) and let Henk's 'soccer fans' get on with it – although, to be fair to soccer fans, many of them have a real technical understanding of the game in addition to their emotional involvement, and sports journalism for the most part, IMHO, puts classical music journalism to shame....

DBP

[Herman]

On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:15:20 PM UTC+2, daniel pienaar wrote:
>
>
> (As I pointed out, some people find my obsessions with these things too 'interventionist', whereas others don't even notice them at all (perhaps because all they can hear is the 'de-prioritising' of blanket warmth and 'evenness' of the kind that a standard-issue, authoritarian, Rosina Lhevine-style technique would produce) and thus find my playing lacking in 'depth' (perhaps equating fleetness or speed with superficiality, to boot) - or boring, or outright incompetent. Others, still, find the detailing colourful and interesting, or (as you do, Mandryka) 'tense and turbulent'. That sort of spread is in the nature of aesthetic experience, as anyone who has eavesdropped on audience comments at any concert will know (unless an overwhelming consensus has previously been forged around the work of an artist - in which case many in the audience will predictably seek to perceive what they believe they are there to perceive)).
>

This is one for the ages.

[Herman]

On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:34:25 PM UTC+2, Herman wrote:
>
The resident "pianophiles" should read and reread this every time before posting some armchair general comment.

[cheregi]

Simply phenomenal thread. I almost burst out laughing when he actually showed up, it was too perfect. I still haven't heard more than a minute of his recordings but I might have to change that after this.

[Mandryka]

On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:28:39 PM UTC+1, cheregi wrote:
> Simply phenomenal thread. I almost burst out laughing when he actually showed up, it was too perfect. I still haven't heard more than a minute of his recordings but I might have to change that after this.

Try the Beethoven. I know people who rate his Beethoven as amongst the most stimulating complete sets ever made.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <10c40155-1fab-4e66...@googlegroups.com>,

JohnGavin <dag...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Being a forum on classical recordings, is it really out of line
>to discuss aspects of a recorded performance that one finds lacking
>in some way?

I'm perfectly comfortable with having expressed my opinion.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <6f3e78d1-edd1-4692...@googlegroups.com>,

daniel pienaar <storyof...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>Mandryka and Todd, it would be a mistake to assume that musicians
>have, by default, access to their ideal instruments, halls etc.
>for recordings.

Ah, but Daniel, hence my comment to design your own! :-)

But obviously, it would mean putting your attention there, instead
of other places....

[Andrew Clarke]

On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 1:28:39 AM UTC+10, cheregi wrote:
> Simply phenomenal thread. I almost burst out laughing when he actually showed up, it was too perfect. I still haven't heard more than a minute of his recordings but I might have to change that after this.

It reminds me of the time somebody started a long thread about Klaus "Naxos" Heymann's wife Takako Nishizaki, and whether she had used her feminine charms to get herself recorded. Then Klaus turned up ...

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Owen]

For Spotify users:

<https://open.spotify.com/album/20pDlRsj3eaRECjBEay0O2?si=yY7fb-4iQ2qYLhWzj4c-Jg&dl_branch=1>

Or perhaps Schubert:

<https://open.spotify.com/album/6A27RFHEMZyhEE00Z7wKEz?si=qKVNSLPbQa-9vYmGMTruRw&dl_branch=1>

WARNING: Dan might make a nickel or so by you playing one of these
links! :-)

-Owen

[Bob Harper]

Nice analogy, Henk. Let's hope we generally behave like soccer *fans*
rather than soccer *hooligans*. Of course, we all fall short on occasion.

Bob Harper

[Owen]

On 9/10/21 10:15 AM, daniel pienaar wrote:

> An apology for the looooong replies and to have intruded on your discussion, some might say inappropriately so - although it has been fun. Musicians should not interfere with their critics, but I guess on occasion a real conversation about the subject matter is more edifying than ad hominem invective.

President Harry Truman threatened to thrash the music critic who dared
carp about his daughter's performance, and he had nukes. So as long as
you keep your "interference" (though I wouldn't call it that)
conventional, we'll all probably survive.

I really WILL now get out of your way (I already feel like one of those
conductors with their endless farewell tours...)

Our "way?" We don't really have a way. It's more like a car crash.

and let Henk's 'soccer fans' get on with it – although, to be fair to
soccer fans, many of them have a real technical understanding of the
game in addition to their emotional involvement, and sports journalism
for the most part, IMHO, puts classical music journalism to shame....

Some of us have also been known to root for soccer teams.

-Owen

[HT]

Op vrijdag 10 september 2021 om 19:51:00 UTC+2 schreef Bob Harper:

<g> The line is thin, Bob. Fandom (even of the most innocent kind) requires a certain amount of immaturity and irrationality. That's why RMCR shouldn't set too high standards for itself. We'd almost become (semi-)professionals.

Henk

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <7e4885c2-566b-4265...@googlegroups.com>,

daniel pienaar <storyof...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>Some people hear these things, and find it all 'too much' - others
>don't pick on them at all and find the playing mechanical or bland.

BTW, I think it's actually the "too much" that can ultimately
"anesthetize" the listener, and have them start perceiving a sort
of (false) sameness. It's what the mind does when it becomes
overwhelmed. I felt this process myself, listening to the first
half of your Gibbons set in one sitting.

[Bob Harper]

No danger of that, I suspect :).

Bob Harper

[Al Eisner]

Is the above constructive? Ad infinitum....

Would it be constructive to say that anyone who does not properly notate
in their posts the quotation of earlier posts is a butcher? Or would
that be better put in some other manner?
--
Al Eisner

[Al Eisner]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2021, cheregi wrote:

> Simply phenomenal thread. I almost burst out laughing when he actually showed up, it was too perfect. I still haven't heard more than a minute of his recordings but I might have to change that after this.

I'm in a similar position, and his (D-B P's) posts have definitely
interested me in investigating his work.
--
Al Eisner

[Steven Bornfeld]

For sure.

[dn.md]

RCMR isn't the place for nuanced opinions, there are better classical forums on the web for this. This is mostly an entertainment blog to hear opinions along the lines of "it sucks, this blows" and some clever wordplay mangling artist's names. Going back to me early med school days, I'm recalling the child development milestones of a 2 year old being able to say roughly 200 words in 2-3 word sentences and a 3-4 year old being able to say roughly 1000 words. RCMR on a whole is more like reading the former.

[Ricardo Jimenez]

On Mon, 13 Sep 2021 16:00:23 -0700 (PDT), "dn.md"
<deepa...@gmail.com> wrote:

>RCMR isn't the place for nuanced opinions, there are better classical forums on the web for this.

Please post the list of these better forums. Do you know of one which
specializes in DVDs/Blu-rays of operas? TIA.

[MELMOTH]

dn.md avait prétendu :

> RCMR on a whole is more like reading the former.

No !...#99% people in the world !...

[Herman]

On Tuesday, September 14, 2021 at 1:00:25 AM UTC+2, dn.md wrote:
>
> Going back to me early med school days, I'm recalling the child development milestones of a 2 year old being able to say roughly 200 words in 2-3 word sentences and a 3-4 year old being able to say roughly 1000 words. RCMR on a whole is more like reading the former.

Love it when somebody intends to say something superior and mangles grammar in the process. "me early school days"...
anyway, is this a frequent RMCR poster or just some fly-by wiseguy?

[Gerard]

Op 2021-09-14 om 01:00 schreef dn.md:

>
> RCMR isn't the place for nuanced opinions, there are better classical forums on the web for this. This is mostly an entertainment blog to hear opinions along the lines of "it sucks, this blows" and some clever wordplay mangling artist's names. Going back to me early med school days, I'm recalling the child development milestones of a 2 year old being able to say roughly 200 words in 2-3 word sentences and a 3-4 year old being able to say roughly 1000 words. RCMR on a whole is more like reading the former.
>

No, RMCR has become like that after the people with nuanced opinions
disappeared and the bullying and insulting clowns in their caves took
over and got approval and even appreciation.

Better classical forums are moderated. Like
https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/board,5.0.html
https://www.talkclassical.com/?s=a3f08c21d4dc139abddf92d8515bfe5a

[Frank Lekens]

Op 10-9-2021 om 17:49 schreef Mandryka:

> On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:28:39 PM UTC+1, cheregi wrote:
>> Simply phenomenal thread. I almost burst out laughing when he actually showed up, it was too perfect. I still haven't heard more than a minute of his recordings but I might have to change that after this.
>
> Try the Beethoven. I know people who rate his Beethoven as amongst the most stimulating complete sets ever made.
>

The Mozart also.

--
Frank Lekens

http://fmlekens.home.xs4all.nl/
https://franklekens.blogspot.nl/

[Ricardo Jimenez]

Thanks.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <3ce1af13-d669-4c3d...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>Try the Beethoven. I know people who rate his Beethoven as amongst
>the most stimulating complete sets ever made.

I've listened to his last 3 Schubert Sonatas 5 times now. I don't
think they'll ever be "favorites" but I did get something out of
his approach. (Still less enthusiasm for the Gibbons, although I'd
like to see that repertory get performed more....)

If I feel like more Beethoven someday, maybe I'll take up that
suggestion too....