Rozhdestvensky's Bruckner on Venezia
mpe...@comcast.net
sampling I have to say that I'm completely knocked out. This is my
first exposure to Rozh's Bruckner, and my first impression is that he's
one of the most instinctive, exciting conductors of this music I've
heard. Moreover, the recordings sound fabulous, with an enormous of
detail (especially the woodwinds), and little to none of the sour
Russian brass I was expecting. There's nothing in English in the notes
about the remastering, but these are without doubt from master tapes.
I'm aware that Rozh recorded alternative versions of the symphonies,
and these are sadly not included. The 3rd is the 1877 version,
otherwise the most commonly played versions are in the set.
This is my third Venezia purchase, along with Rozh's Sibelius and
Kondrashin's Mahler (1, 3-7, 9). I have nothing to compare the
Sibelius to, but the sound is good, if not great, and the performances
uneven but sometimes inspired (e.g. the 7th). Kondrashin's Mahler is
self-recommending, and Venezia's sound is far superior to Lys (I
haven't heard the recent Melodiya reissues).
At their budget price, these Venezia sets are a steal. I've only seen
them from Japanese sources, and the Bruckner set is already sold out
from Tower and HMV - I had a colleague in Japan get it for me.
Marc Perman
rkhalona
Yes, this is a sleeper Bruckner set. I especially love the 6th
symphony in this setñ a very incisive performance that emphasizes the
boldness of this symphony's first movement.
I hope they included the Mahler version of the 4th symphony in the set,
still the only recording available, AFAIK.
RK
jrs...@aol.com
Are these different performances than those on Russian Revelation?
--Jeff
rkhalona
If the Venezia cycle is the same as the one released on BMG/Melodiya in
Japan (OOP), the answer is yes. Some of the Russian Revelation
recordings (3 and 9) are with the USSR Radio and TV Orch (Moscow RSO),
not the Min. of Culture band.
RK
Michael Schaffer
>
> --Jeff
I have some of the RR ones, those are among the most screwed up
recordings, with horrible sound and idiotic balances, I have ever
heard. I hope these are different. Because they look like something I
have to have, but after the RR recordings I heard...
jrs...@aol.com
Does the box also include the 00 and 0 that were on Chant du Monde? I
forget if those ever appeared on RR.
--Jeff
rkhalona
Marc should answer that question. The F-minor and the Nullte were
included in the BMG/melodiya set I have (16 CDs in all, released on
eight slimcase double CDs).
RK
Bob Harper
don't remember the label, but the sound was the worst I have ever heard
on a supposedly modern recording. The EQ was distorted beyond belief,
and the result was unlistenable. I think R also played editor, as the
text did not corredpond with any other recording I've ever heard. Tell
me the sound is better in this set...please!
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
Oops. I guess you *did* comment on the sound. Thanks!
Bob Harper
rkhalona
Bob Harper wrote:
> >
> I picked up a copy of 5 (at Sankt Florian!) a couple of years ago. I
> don't remember the label, but the sound was the worst I have ever heard
> on a supposedly modern recording. The EQ was distorted beyond belief,
> and the result was unlistenable. I think R also played editor, as the
> text did not corredpond with any other recording I've ever heard. Tell
> me the sound is better in this set...please!
>
Some of them have been released on the Icone label, every issue of
which I have listened to is horrible.
RK
Bob Harper
abomination that assaulted my ears.
Bob Harper
Michael Schaffer
On Oct 17, 11:15 pm, Bob Harper <bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
> mper...@comcast.net wrote:
> > I just today received this set of the symphonies, and based on liberal
> > sampling I have to say that I'm completely knocked out. This is my
> > first exposure to Rozh's Bruckner, and my first impression is that he's
> > one of the most instinctive, exciting conductors of this music I've
> > heard. Moreover, the recordings sound fabulous, with an enormous of
> > detail (especially the woodwinds), and little to none of the sour
> > Russian brass I was expecting. There's nothing in English in the notes
> > about the remastering, but these are without doubt from master tapes.
>
> > I'm aware that Rozh recorded alternative versions of the symphonies,
> > and these are sadly not included. The 3rd is the 1877 version,
> > otherwise the most commonly played versions are in the set.
>
> > This is my third Venezia purchase, along with Rozh's Sibelius and
> > Kondrashin's Mahler (1, 3-7, 9). I have nothing to compare the
> > Sibelius to, but the sound is good, if not great, and the performances
> > uneven but sometimes inspired (e.g. the 7th). Kondrashin's Mahler is
> > self-recommending, and Venezia's sound is far superior to Lys (I
> > haven't heard the recent Melodiya reissues).
>
> > At their budget price, these Venezia sets are a steal. I've only seen
> > them from Japanese sources, and the Bruckner set is already sold out
> > from Tower and HMV - I had a colleague in Japan get it for me.
>
> > Marc PermanI picked up a copy of 5 (at Sankt Florian!) a couple of years ago. I
> don't remember the label, but the sound was the worst I have ever heard
> on a supposedly modern recording. The EQ was distorted beyond belief,
> and the result was unlistenable. I think R also played editor, as the
> text did not corredpond with any other recording I've ever heard. Tell
> me the sound is better in this set...please!
>
> Bob Harper
I guess that's the recording I have, too. I thought it was on RR, but
it may also have been on Icone. At the beginning, there are some
muffled stirrings in the distance (about 100m away from you) which
could be the strings beginning the movement.
Then when the first tutti comes in, you suddenly have the brass right
in your face, drowning out the rest the orchestra with harshly EQed
noise (we know Russian brass could be very intense, but not *lile
that*). This travesty continues throughout the disc, with a lot of
artifical reverb added to string passages to
create...uh..."athmosphere".
Does that sound familiar? If so, you probably have the same disc I
have.
So, apparently the recordings on Venezia are different recordings to
begin with, and they don't sound as grotesque, right?
Mr Perman - since you have both the Sibelius and the Bruckner sets, can
you compare the sound on the Bruckner discs to the Sibelius? I have
those.
Michael Schaffer
On Oct 17, 7:10 pm, "mper...@comcast.net" <mper...@comcast.net> wrote:
> I just today received this set of the symphonies, and based on liberal
> sampling I have to say that I'm completely knocked out. This is my
> first exposure to Rozh's Bruckner, and my first impression is that he's
> one of the most instinctive, exciting conductors of this music I've
> heard. Moreover, the recordings sound fabulous, with an enormous of
> detail (especially the woodwinds), and little to none of the sour
> Russian brass I was expecting. There's nothing in English in the notes
> about the remastering, but these are without doubt from master tapes.
>
> I'm aware that Rozh recorded alternative versions of the symphonies,
> and these are sadly not included. The 3rd is the 1877 version,
> otherwise the most commonly played versions are in the set.
>
> This is my third Venezia purchase, along with Rozh's Sibelius and
> Kondrashin's Mahler (1, 3-7, 9).
I didn't know these were available on Venezia. I have the Melodiya box.
Apparently the one you have includes "Kindertotenlieder" with
Temirkanov, the 10th (or at least the first movement) with
Rozhdestvensky and Das Lied von der Erde with Sanderling. Is the latter
the recording with the Berliner Sinfonie-Orchester? Who are the
soloists? Can you also provide details for the other non-Kondrashin
items? Thanks!
> I have nothing to compare the
> Sibelius to, but the sound is good, if not great, and the performances
> uneven but sometimes inspired (e.g. the 7th). Kondrashin's Mahler is
> self-recommending, and Venezia's sound is far superior to Lys (I
> haven't heard the recent Melodiya reissues).
>
> At their budget price, these Venezia sets are a steal. I've only seen
> them from Japanese sources, and the Bruckner set is already sold out
> from Tower and HMV - I had a colleague in Japan get it for me.
Oh, great - I missed that :-(
> Marc Perman
alanwa...@aol.com
Compared to the Melodiya set it is incomplete. It is missing variant
versions of Symphonies 1, 3, 4 plus a variant finale to No 9.
I understand that eventually the set is to be reissued by Melodiya,
probably remastered as is their current trend.
Remastered Prokofiev and Sibelius symphonies are also planned but no
one knows the time schedule, least of all the conductor.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Bob Harper
(snip)
> I guess that's the recording I have, too. I thought it was on RR, but
> it may also have been on Icone. At the beginning, there are some
> muffled stirrings in the distance (about 100m away from you) which
> could be the strings beginning the movement.
> Then when the first tutti comes in, you suddenly have the brass right
> in your face, drowning out the rest the orchestra with harshly EQed
> noise (we know Russian brass could be very intense, but not *lile
> that*). This travesty continues throughout the disc, with a lot of
> artifical reverb added to string passages to
> create...uh..."athmosphere".
> Does that sound familiar? If so, you probably have the same disc I
> have.
That's the one. I remember wondering if something was wrong with my
player or amp when I heard those muffled strings, then having my
eardrums fried when the brass came in. Unbelievable.
Bob Harper
mpe...@comcast.net
Marc Perman
mpe...@comcast.net
I'm afraid I just left town for a few days but from memory the Bruckner
set is more detailed
and a bit brighter (in a good way). Do you like the sound of the
Sibelius set?
Marc Perman
Brendan R. Wehrung
Excuse me, but where does one buy these (to Google) mythical sets?
Brendan
jrs...@aol.com
Thank you for the information.
--Jeff
Michael Schaffer
>
> Brendan
Here:
http://www.hmv.co.jp/search/index.asp?formattype=2&keyword=venezia&target=KEYWORD
Just type in venezia and the composer and/or interpreter or just
venezia, like I did.
Ordering from hmv.co.jp is easy (English button on the top left) and
shipping is very fast and reasonable, especially if you combine several
items. I usually browse there, put stuff on my wishlist, review that
once in a while, delete what I don't want anymore, then strike. I also
check the exchange rates, but since I don't oreder stuff for 1000s,
that usually doesn't make such a big difference.
The Bruckner set is not available anymore at this time, but maybe it
will come back. Venezia seem to be quite successful with their nicely
priced budget sets.
Michael Schaffer
> > you compare the sound on the Bruckner discs to the Sibelius? I have
> set is more detailed
> and a bit brighter (in a good way). Do you like the sound of the
> Sibelius set?
>
> Marc Perman
As a collector of recordings from the Soviet era, I am used to a lot of
pain. For the time and place, the recordings are actually quite good,
some technical problems such as minor tape dropouts and a little
distortion here and there do not spoil my enjoyment of these musically
very impressive readings.
The recordings are quite good, fairly well spaced and transparent, and
not too artifically EQed, so yes, given the circumstances, I am happy
with the quality as it is and the playing and musical merits of the box
make it really worth to have it. One of my favorite Sibelius cycles.
Sacqueboutier
Couldn't find any Bruckner. I've searched HMV.jp several times using
the composer and/or the interpreter. Nothing comes up.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
Michael Schaffer
On Oct 19, 3:19 am, Sacqueboutier <nos...@nocomspamcast.net> wrote:
> On 2006-10-19 02:51:28 -0400, "Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com> said:
>
> >> Excuse me, but where does one buy these (to Google) mythical > sets?
>
> >> Brendan
>
> > Here:
> >http://www.hmv.co.jp/search/index.asp?formattype=2&keyword=venezia&ta...Just
>
>
>
> > type in venezia and the composer and/or interpreter or just
> > venezia, like I did.
>
> > Ordering from hmv.co.jp is easy (English button on the top left) and
> > shipping is very fast and reasonable, especially if you combine several
> > items. I usually browse there, put stuff on my wishlist, review that
> > once in a while, delete what I don't want anymore, then strike. I also
> > check the exchange rates, but since I don't oreder stuff for 1000s,
> > that usually doesn't make such a big difference.
>
> > The Bruckner set is not available anymore at this time, but maybe it
> > will come back. Venezia seem to be quite successful with their nicely
> > priced budget sets.Couldn't find any Bruckner. I've searched HMV.jp several times using
> the composer and/or the interpreter. Nothing comes up.
>
> --
> Best wishes,
>
> Sacqueboutier
I know, that's what I said in the last paragraph. But I hope it will
come back. Provided Venezia are successful with their sets in general.
I wonder if anyone has more information - and if it might be advisable
to snatch any of their box sets that look interesting, since we don't
know how long they will be available...
mpe...@comcast.net
Michael Schaffer wrote:
>
> I know, that's what I said in the last paragraph. But I hope it will
> come back. Provided Venezia are successful with their sets in general.
> I wonder if anyone has more information - and if it might be advisable
> to snatch any of their box sets that look interesting, since we don't
> know how long they will be available...
Venezia has also done Kondrashin's Shostakovich and Rozhdestvensky's
Prokofiev cycles. I have the Kondrashin DSCH on the Korean label
Aulos, which is a vast improvement over the BMG/Melodiya set.
Marc Perman
Michael Schaffer
On Oct 19, 6:47 am, "mper...@comcast.net" <mper...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Michael Schaffer wrote:
>
> > I know, that's what I said in the last paragraph. But I hope it will
> > come back. Provided Venezia are successful with their sets in general.
> > I wonder if anyone has more information - and if it might be advisable
> > to snatch any of their box sets that look interesting, since we don't
> > know how long they will be available...Venezia has also done Kondrashin's Shostakovich and Rozhdestvensky's
> Prokofiev cycles.
Indeed they do. Forget what I said earlier - searching for "Venezia"
and the interpreter name doesn't work - it used to, though. The search
function on hmv.co.jp blows massively.
Even the advanced search which pretends it lets you search specifically
for recordings on one label doesn't work. If you enter composer and
conductor name, that works, though.
> I have the Kondrashin DSCH on the Korean label
> Aulos, which is a vast improvement over the BMG/Melodiya set.
I have that Korean set, too - the only CD box I have which has a
magnetic latch!
Bought it for about twice the price of the Venezia set :-(
But that was before the latter was available and the former apparently
OOP, so I had to act!
> Marc Perman
Frank Berger
"Sacqueboutier" <nos...@nocomspamcast.net> wrote in message
news:2006101906193816807-nospam@nocomspamcastnet...
> On 2006-10-19 02:51:28 -0400, "Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com> said:
>
>>> Excuse me, but where does one buy these (to Google) mythical > sets?
>>>
>>> Brendan
>>
>> Here:
>> http://www.hmv.co.jp/search/index.asp?formattype=2&keyword=venezia&target=KEYWORD
>
> Just
>>
>> type in venezia and the composer and/or interpreter or just
>> venezia, like I did.
>>
Typing "Venezia" by itself returns only items with the word "Venezia" in the
works list - nothing at all from the label "Venezia" shows up. Unless you
add the composer. So "Venezia Sibelius" returns the Rozh set. Not too
useful if you want to browse what the label Venezia offers.
Sacqueboutier
Just
Ah, I was looking for the Bruckner set. Is it no longer available?
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
Michael Schaffer
On Oct 19, 8:56 am, "Frank Berger" <frank.d.ber...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
> "Sacqueboutier" <nos...@nocomspamcast.net> wrote in messagenews:2006101906193816807-nospam@nocomspamcastnet...
>
> > On 2006-10-19 02:51:28 -0400, "Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com> said:
>
> >>> Excuse me, but where does one buy these (to Google) mythical > sets?
>
> >>> Brendan
>
> >> Here:
> >>http://www.hmv.co.jp/search/index.asp?formattype=2&keyword=venezia&ta...
>
> > Just
>
> >> type in venezia and the composer and/or interpreter or just
> >> venezia, like I did.Typing "Venezia" by itself returns only items with the word "Venezia" in the
> works list - nothing at all from the label "Venezia" shows up. Unless you
> add the composer. So "Venezia Sibelius" returns the Rozh set. Not too
> useful if you want to browse what the label Venezia offers.
You are right. It used to work like that, but not anymore...
The search function really blows. Even your example doesn't work
reliably. Try "Venezia Shostakovich" - niente.
Even typing in interpreter and composer doesn't always work reliably.
Try "Prokofiev Rozhdestvensky" - 2 items, but not the complete
symphonies on Venezia.
So I just searched for all the usual suspects, Rozhdestvensky,
Mravinsky, Kondrashin, etcetc, and went through all the many listings.
That Venezia label doesn't seem to have its own website, and their
recordings don't seem to be carried by RussianDVD even though the boxes
are obviously made with Russian customers in mind. There is a lot of
Cyrillic text on them.
Michael Schaffer
On Oct 19, 12:40 pm, Sacqueboutier <nos...@nocomspamcast.net> wrote:
> On 2006-10-19 11:56:31 -0400, "Frank Berger" <frank.d.ber...@dal.frb.org> said:
>
>
>
> > "Sacqueboutier" <nos...@nocomspamcast.net> wrote in message
> >news:2006101906193816807-nospam@nocomspamcastnet...
> >> On 2006-10-19 02:51:28 -0400, "Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com> said:
>
> >>>> Excuse me, but where does one buy these (to Google) mythical > sets?
>
> >>>> Brendan
>
> >>> Here:
> >>>http://www.hmv.co.jp/search/index.asp?formattype=2&keyword=venezia&ta...Just
>
> type
>
>
>
> >>> in venezia and the composer and/or interpreter or just
> >>> venezia, like I did.
>
> > Typing "Venezia" by itself returns only items with the word "Venezia"
> > in the works list - nothing at all from the label "Venezia" shows up.
> > Unless you add the composer. So "Venezia Sibelius" returns the Rozh
> > set. Not too useful if you want to browse what the label Venezia
> > offers.Ah, I was looking for the Bruckner set. Is it no longer available?
>
> --
> Best wishes,
>
> Sacqueboutier
Apparently not at this time. I wonder if it will come back. I am under
the impression these Venezia boxes are quite successful - I mean, for
classical stuff.
Sol L. Siegel
<mpe...@comcast.net> wrote:
>I'm aware that Rozh recorded alternative versions of the symphonies,
>and these are sadly not included.
I have him in the 1891 "Vienna" 1st. I still dislike that revision,
but I have to admit that he and the players seems to having a great
deal of fun playing it. The online Bruckner discography
(http://www.abruckner.com/) shows that the Venezia set includes the
standard 1877 "Linz" version.
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA
"It may take a village to raise a child - but it only takes one idiot
to burn down the village."
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Michael Schaffer
On Oct 19, 6:22 pm, Sol L. Siegel <vod...@aol.com> wrote:
> On 17 Oct 2006 19:10:16 -0700, "mper...@comcast.net"
>
> <mper...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >I'm aware that Rozh recorded alternative versions of the symphonies,
> >and these are sadly not included.I have him in the 1891 "Vienna" 1st. I still dislike that revision,
> but I have to admit that he and the players seems to having a great
> deal of fun playing it. The onlineBrucknerdiscography
> (http://www.abruckner.com/) shows that the Venezia set includes the
> standard 1877 "Linz" version.
Indeed it does. I got the box set today. After some spot checking, I
can report that it does indeed sound better than the "Icone" versions I
already know. But not very much. These are, at least in some cases, the
same recordings (e.g. #5) and while the sound is not quite as bad as on
the Icone releases, it has been monkeyed around with rather massively,
too. There is a lot of extreme spotlighting going on, with wind soli
sometimes in your face and the strings way in the background.
Sometimes, wind and strings also happen in clearly different acoustic
spaces. It sounds like quite a lot of artificial reverb is used in some
places, especially for the strings. The EQing is also rather
artificial, with fairly bright and glary winds (especially the brass in
tuttis) and often rather muffled and boomy low strings - somebody
really messed around with the knobs rather insensitively.
But again, it is not as bad as on the Icone releases of the same
recordings, but still not very satisfying. The sound on the Sibelius
set, although much older, is much more realistic and natural.
This will not and should not deterr potential collectors from getting
the set if you are interested in the interpreters, but some caution has
to be given.
mpe...@comcast.net
Are you describing the Venezia set? I ask because I don't share your
impressions at all, except perhaps for the spotlighting of winds, which
I believe is the way the orchestra was recorded and which is actually
part of this set's appeal. I've listened to several of the symphonies
now and what's striking to me, besides the consistently exciting
results achieved by Rozhdestvensky, is how appealing these CDs sound
compared to other Russian recordings of similar vintage. While there
is s certain brightness, it's never excessive and does not affect the
strings, which sound full and clear to my ears.
Marc Perman
Michael Schaffer
> > to be given.Are you describing the Venezia set? I ask because I don't share your
> impressions at all, except perhaps for the spotlighting of winds, which
> I believe is the way the orchestra was recorded and which is actually
> part of this set's appeal. I've listened to several of the symphonies
> now and what's striking to me, besides the consistently exciting
> results achieved by Rozhdestvensky, is how appealing these CDs sound
> compared to other Russian recordings of similar vintage. While there
> is s certain brightness, it's never excessive and does not affect the
> strings, which sound full and clear to my ears.
>
> Marc Perman
Yes, I am talking about the Venezia set. I have only spot checked
individual movements here and there, but what I heard so far sounds
really, really, really bad. Extremely artificial and unnatural. Muddy
strings with artificial reverb and a very unrealistic EQ (completely
boosted highs and lows, resulting in a very mumbly lower end and
screechingly sharp high end) closemiked, overEQed winds which sound
hoarse and blary, really off balances which often present instrument
groups in completely different acoustic spaces. Spotmiking is OK with
me, but it goes to extremes here which are just ridiculous. Sometimes
solo winds are totally in the foreground with the string sections way
in the background. Plus the way the orchestra is recorded really makes
it sound very hoarse and blary. I heard Rozhdestvensky and the Ministry
of Culture Orchestra live around the time these recordings were made,
and they sounded *completely* different. I mean, really *completely*
different, even taking into account how different orchestras can sound
in recordings anyway. Listening to these recordings on good headphones
reveals just how bad the recorded sound is. A pity, because these are
basically very interesting performances. But not in the way they are
sonically presented here. I have to spend more time with the set to
really be able to offer a complete review, but what I have heard so far
is among the worst I have ever heard. Even distorted mono recordings
from much earlier (like Mravinsky's Bruckner 7) are way more listenable
than this horrible travesty.
I can see how some might think this sounds "full and clear", but only
people with massively clogged ears and/or really mediocre playback
equipment for whom the acidy blariness of these recordings might sound
attractive.
A huge disappointment, especially for a collector or Russian recordings
from the Soviet era (like me) who wants to appreciate the specific
orchestral style and Rozhdestvensky's very expressionist approach, but
these recordings make that really difficult.
Bob Harper
(snip)
Well, at least you've saved me some money :(
Bob Harper
rkhalona
Given the state of affairs with the Melodiya archives, I doubt there
will be a Japanese BMG/Melodiya re-release (I am glad I got my set when
these were released the first time in Japan), but I would think these
are prime candidates for an Aulos reissue.
RK
mpe...@comcast.net
Again, I disagree with almost everything you've said, and it's a shame
that you'll discourage
other Brucknerphiles from hearing this set (though it may already be
out of print). For the record,
my hearing is excellent, and I've listened via all my gear (Rogers LS-6
speakers with Nakamichi electronics, Epos M-5 speakers with Music Hall
electronics, and Sennheiser 580 headphones via
the computer.
Marc Perman
Michael Schaffer
> > these recordings make that really difficult.Well, at least you've saved me some money :(
>
> Bob Harper
Yes, unfortunately, after some more listening, I can't revise my
earlier impressions, again keeping in mind that I haven't heard the
complete set yet. But most of these were made within a short period of
time with the same sound engineer who to me appears to be the main
culprit here. The recording...uh...esthetic is pretty consistently
horrible. Here we are not dealing with recordings which are just old or
made with inferior equipment, but just completely screwed up by
incompetent sound engineering. That is all the more sad since the
performances are musically rather interesting. So, if you can overlook
the sound problems somehow - which is really difficult since the sound
isn't just consistently bad, it changes and shifts all the time and
while there are some stretches which are pretty stable in the sound
picture (like some longer stretches in the slow movement), the basic
problems persist and you have some instrument groups jump out at you
almost randomly. The main problem really is that none of the sections
is served well. The brass sound like milk cartons throughout. They did
play very intensely, but not like that. The closemiking often makes
them sound very harsh and the attacks often overly brittle. I even
think they put some mics *behind* the horns. The strings sound almost
articifical with all the massive added reverb and extreme EQing. In
fact, the string sound reminds me very much of how some early sampling
programs sounded with that plasticky, glary sound.
Like I said, I heard the same orchestra live and, being used to the
sound of many Russian recordings, I was almost *shocked* how smooth and
dark their strings really sounded, almost like the Concertgebouw
strings, but with a slightly firmer core, and how colorful the winds
were. You wouldn't be able to even guess that from these recordings.
Michael Schaffer
> > these recordings make that really difficult.Again, I disagree with almost everything you've said, and it's a shame
> that you'll discourage
> other Brucknerphiles from hearing this set (though it may already be
> out of print). For the record,
> my hearing is excellent, and I've listened via all my gear (Rogers LS-6
> speakers with Nakamichi electronics, Epos M-5 speakers with Music Hall
> electronics, and Sennheiser 580 headphones via
> the computer.
>
> Marc Perman
At this point, I am not really discouraging yet, more cautioning, but
yes, I feel I have to caution very massively. This really is too bad.
Nobody is more disappointed by that than me since I am a big fan of the
Russian orchestral culture and I also appreciate Rozhdestvensky's work
a lot. If the sound was like on the Sibelius set, a little dated, with
some not too grave technical problems, but basically fairly listenable
for what it is, I wouldn't have such a big problem with it. But this
really is way too bad. I wonder if the engineer was a TV sound engineer
because the way this is mixed sounds a lot like something you might
want to put together for very inferior mono TV sound, overemphasizing
some aspects of the sound in order to bring it out better. Dunno, just
a guess.
alanwa...@aol.com
I think if you all hold tight there will be a complete *original* but
remastered set from Melodiya, probably at vast price however.
Mr Rozhdestvensky assures me that he is now "front line" Melodiya, a
potential antidote to the purchased tapes of Svelanov by Nina (clever
move, that, during the free for all and now sold on).
It is still the most "complete" Bruckner ever issued as I understand.
I understand Melodiya are not unaware of that.
What they can do with the sound remains to be seen but IF they have the
original masters they certainly have people with the skill to possibly
put it better into musical context.
rkhalona
alanwa...@aol.com wrote:
>
> I think if you all hold tight there will be a complete *original* but
> remastered set from Melodiya, probably at vast price however.
>
The first Japanese BMG/Melodiya edition, issued several years ago was
complete and remastered from Melodiya tapes. It was issued in 16 CDs
(eight slim 2-CD packs) and went quickly OOP.
It was also issued at vast price and I grabbed it the minute I saw it.
RK
mpe...@comcast.net
How is the sound on that set, Ramon? Is it as good (Perman)/bad
(Schaffer) as the Venezia set? :)
Marc Perman
mpe...@comcast.net
I give up the debate, but I'm not giving up the Venezia set.
Marc Perman
rkhalona
It's as good as I expect Russian orchestras from that period to sound,
so I think it is much closer to what you describe than to what Michael
is talking about. I was disappointed with the Sibelius set and with
the Tchaikovsky (4, 5, 6) also on Venezia with Rozhdy through, so
Michael and I must be listening with different ears.
RK
mpe...@comcast.net
I prefer the sound of Venezia's Bruckner set to the Sibelius, though
the Sibelius isn't bad. Venezia's Kondrashin Mahler is an improvement
over the Lys (probably master tapes vs. LPs).
Marc Perman
Michael Schaffer
On Nov 1, 5:51 pm, "mper...@comcast.net" <mper...@comcast.net> wrote:
> rkhalona wrote:
> > mper...@comcast.net wrote:
> > > rkhalona wrote:
> > > > alanwatkin...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > > > > I think if you all hold tight there will be a complete *original* but
> > > > > remastered set from Melodiya, probably at vast price however.
>
> > > > The first Japanese BMG/Melodiya edition, issued several years ago was
> > > > complete and remastered from Melodiya tapes. It was issued in 16 CDs
> > > > (eight slim 2-CD packs) and went quickly OOP.
> > > > It was also issued at vast price and I grabbed it the minute I saw it.
>
> > > > RK
>
> > > How is the sound on that set, Ramon? Is it as good (Perman)/bad
> > > (Schaffer) as the Venezia set? :)
>
> > It's as good as I expect Russian orchestras from that period to sound,
> > so I think it is much closer to what you describe than to what Michael
> > is talking about. I was disappointed with the Sibelius set and with
> > the Tchaikovsky (4, 5, 6) also on Venezia with Rozhdy through, so
> > Michael and I must be listening with different ears.I prefer the sound of Venezia's Bruckner set to the Sibelius, though
> the Sibelius isn't bad. Venezia's Kondrashin Mahler is an improvement
> over the Lys (probably master tapes vs. LPs).
>
> Marc Perman
I have the Kondrashin Mahler recordings both on LYS and the Melodiya
issue (don't know the Venezia), and the sound is dramatically better on
the Melodiya because it is obviously taken directly from the tapes
while the LYS are transferred from LPs - and not even LPs in very good
state. Some of the items in the Melodiya box sound surprisingly good
for the period. Some of the earlier items don't sound that hot, but I
can live with that. The sound is just "old", but not as massively
tampered with as the recordings in the Bruckner box.
Michael Schaffer
On Nov 1, 4:47 pm, "rkhalona" <rkhal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> mper...@comcast.net wrote:
> > rkhalona wrote:
> > > alanwatkin...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > > > I think if you all hold tight there will be a complete *original* but
> > > > remastered set from Melodiya, probably at vast price however.
>
> > > The first Japanese BMG/Melodiya edition, issued several years ago was
> > > complete and remastered from Melodiya tapes. It was issued in 16 CDs
> > > (eight slim 2-CD packs) and went quickly OOP.
> > > It was also issued at vast price and I grabbed it the minute I saw it.
>
> > > RK
>
> > How is the sound on that set, Ramon? Is it as good (Perman)/bad
> > (Schaffer) as the Venezia set? :)It's as good as I expect Russian orchestras from that period to sound,
> so I think it is much closer to what you describe than to what Michael
> is talking about. I was disappointed with the Sibelius set and with
> the Tchaikovsky (4, 5, 6) also on Venezia with Rozhdy through, so
> Michael and I must be listening with different ears.
>
> RK
I haven't heard any of the Melodiya issues. We should compare them some
time which should be easy and quick and to do since I have taken
"mental notes" of some of the worst moments (like the end of the 8th
symphony, man, that sounds soooo bad, and most of the scherzo of the
9th).
But I fear there might not be a big difference as it doesn't appear to
me that the culprit here is Venezia: I checked the 1st symphony, the
one recorded by a different engineer: that one, while still not really
good, sounds much, much better and much less monkeyed around with than
any of the other items I have checked so far (5,8,9). A little thin and
brittly, but acceptable and listenable.
The symphonies are very weirdly and stupidly spread over the discs, so
the first movement of 1 is on the previous disc while the first
movement of the 8th comes after movements 2-4 of the 1st symphony. Huh?
They could simply have put the entire 1st on that disc and the 1st
movement of the 8th on the previous one.
But you can hear the fairly drastic difference in sound quality very
graphically if you just keep the CD running after the final movement of
1 and listen to the 1st movement of 8. Listen to the passage beginning
at 3:58 and tell me if you find that sounds good: you have completely
dry and screechingly bright brass in the *foreground* and strings with
tons of artificial reverb in the background. They aren't even in the
same acoustical space. Two minutes later, around 5:30, the whole
orchestra drifts away into a vast cathedral like space, as if it was
floating around on a huge shoal. When there are relatively untampered
closeups as at around 5:50, the rcording is half tolerable, although
even here the unnatural sound quality is still obvious - the horns
sound pretty oily here, swimming in all the acoustical fat.
I think these recordings were made in a studio with a very dry acoustic
and while the engineer who did #1 worked with that as it is and made
the best from it - a rather thin, dry, but for the most part well
defined sound -, the guy who did the other recordings really "did"
them. Apparently he used massive EQing and artificial revern in order
to create a very "special" sound - and I think he succeeded! It is very
special indeed. Among the worst studio productions I have heard in my
life. Right now, I can only think of a few which are even worse, like
the Prokofieff symphonies with Kitayenko from the same period - I have
to check if these were made by the same people. But I guess there are
even some people who think these sound great. In fact, I once talked to
a collector who did.