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Khatia vs. Yuja

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dk

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Mar 15, 2015, 3:31:20 AM3/15/15
to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbir4_vu6fY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsm-HaRwI2I

Thoughts and comments much appreciated.
Lionel, please be specific and refrain
from ranting on the state of the world.

dk

dk

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Mar 15, 2015, 3:50:29 AM3/15/15
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This may well be the top La Valse on YT:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Trf-mo10Vas

dk

Herman

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Mar 15, 2015, 4:02:18 AM3/15/15
to
The whole piano girl vs piano girl (or anyone vs anyone) is so sophomoric.

dk

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Mar 15, 2015, 4:17:37 AM3/15/15
to
On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 1:02:18 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 8:31:20 AM UTC+1, dk wrote:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbir4_vu6fY
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsm-HaRwI2I
> >
> > Thoughts and comments much appreciated.
> > Lionel, please be specific and refrain
> > from ranting on the state of the world.
>
> The whole piano girl vs piano girl (or anyone vs anyone) is so sophomoric.

It is performance vs. performance, not piano
"girl" vs. piano "girl". Find another pair of
performances you deem interesting to discuss
and post them if you don't like the "girls".

Try "bald pianists" instead for a change! ;-)

dk

Lionel Tacchini

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Mar 15, 2015, 6:01:13 AM3/15/15
to
I can't say I like the piece.

Khatia Buniatishvili (will anyone marry her, please? I don't want to
learn to write that name) leaves me puzzled in the first half, guessing
at where the music goes and surprised at its turns.
The blurred beginning has an impressionistic quality which reinforces
this, then it's a lot of fast playing with some short moments of respite
and I can't make much sense of it. The piano beast seems to get hungry
near the end and sounds dangerous. Nice necklace.
She won't change her name if she eats them, though.

Yuja Wang gives a crisper, more ominous character to the beginning. I
must say it gets me more interested immediately. There's more flowing
grace to the playing in the 2nd minute, more contrast between passages
of different character thereafter, more subtlety and variety in the
playing. The piece itself still makes no sense, I guess it's not meant
to. It does sound like a waltz in places, so the title's not a pointless
joke after all. The last third has more of a sense of purpose and
progression, I keep wondering what's coming and looking forward to it. I
like the overall clearer sound too. No necklace.

Rant: the world is round, or so it seems. Tonight will be dark again.

--
Lionel Tacchini - sophomoron

Herman

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Mar 15, 2015, 6:25:06 AM3/15/15
to
On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 11:01:13 AM UTC+1, Lionel Tacchini wrote:

>
> Khatia Buniatishvili (will anyone marry her, please? I don't want to
> learn to write that name)

1) Women in the 21st century don't change their names upon marrying.

2) As an artist Buniatishvili wouldn't change her name anyway. You don't build a name / reputation and toss it out the window upon marrying Tom Smith.

3) It's just a Georgian proper name.

Lionel Tacchini

unread,
Mar 15, 2015, 6:31:10 AM3/15/15
to
This one has invention, rhythm, grace, excitment. There is no need for
the piece to make sense when it's made that interesting and fun to
listen to.

--
Lionel Tacchini

Lionel Tacchini

unread,
Mar 15, 2015, 6:41:24 AM3/15/15
to
On 15.03.2015 11:25, Herman wrote:
> On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 11:01:13 AM UTC+1, Lionel Tacchini wrote:

>> Khatia Buniatishvili (will anyone marry her, please? I don't want to
>> learn to write that name)

> 3) It's just a Georgian proper name.

I already learned Skrowaczewski and I would need to forget it in order
to learn that one so I think I'll stick with Lim and Wang, at least
until we have to start numbering them.

--
Lionel Tacchini

Bozo

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Mar 15, 2015, 10:32:38 AM3/15/15
to
>On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 2:50:29 AM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> This may well be the top La Valse on YT:
>

Or this, Philip Kopachevsky live at the 2011 Moscow Competition :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVy5bs5XAvE

JohnGavin

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Mar 15, 2015, 2:33:14 PM3/15/15
to
Yuja Wang is the clear winner. More backbone, more clarity, transparency, more color. The quality that she has less of is sticky sentimentality, which also ends up being a plus, particularly in Ravel.

dk

unread,
Mar 15, 2015, 3:05:20 PM3/15/15
to
On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 3:01:13 AM UTC-7, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
> On 15.03.2015 08:31, dk wrote:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbir4_vu6fY
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsm-HaRwI2I
> >
> > Thoughts and comments much appreciated.
> > Lionel, please be specific and refrain
> > from ranting on the state of the world.
>
> I can't say I like the piece.

This is precisely why the exercise is interesting!
It forces one to focus on the performance. Exactly
what competition jurors have to do. Hoping you can
all now get an appreciation of how difficult their
task is.

> Khatia Buniatishvili (will anyone marry her, please? I
> don't want to learn to write that name) leaves me puzzled
> in the first half, guessing at where the music goes and
> surprised at its turns. The blurred beginning has an
> impressionistic quality which reinforces this, then it's
> a lot of fast playing with some short moments of respite
> and I can't make much sense of it. The piano beast seems
> to get hungry near the end and sounds dangerous.

Very good!

> Nice necklace.

Sexist! You aren't supposed to notice such details. If you
were a juror in a competition you would probably rank bald
male pianists lower ;-)

> She won't change her name if she eats them, though.
>
> Yuja Wang gives a crisper, more ominous character to the
> beginning. I must say it gets me more interested immediately.
> There's more flowing grace to the playing in the 2nd minute,
> more contrast between passages of different character thereafter,
> more subtlety and variety in the playing. The piece itself still
> makes no sense, I guess it's not meant to.

It's French music! What would you expect?

> It does sound like a waltz in places, so the title's not a
> pointless joke after all. The last third has more of a sense
> of purpose and progression, I keep wondering what's coming
> and looking forward to it. I like the overall clearer sound
> too. No necklace.

The bracelet doesn't count? :-)

> Rant: the world is round, or so it seems. Tonight will be
> dark again.

Thanks for a thoughtful analysis. You are making progress!

In brief, I do not find either performance compelling, though
in different ways. Neither has the right balance of fluidity
and clarity to sound "French" enough to my ears. It bothers
me to hear each and every note clearly in Yuja's performance,
while on the other hand I find Khatia's sounds too much like
whipped mayonnaise.

Cheers,

dk


dk

unread,
Mar 15, 2015, 3:06:29 PM3/15/15
to
On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 3:25:06 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 11:01:13 AM UTC+1, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
>
> >
> > Khatia Buniatishvili (will anyone marry her, please? I don't want to
> > learn to write that name)
>
> 1) Women in the 21st century don't change their names upon marrying.

Hey, they haven't since the 19th century.
Remember Georges Sand and Ada Lovelace?

dk

dk

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Mar 15, 2015, 3:07:36 PM3/15/15
to
Bingo! And he was .... 14 when he recorded it?

dk

dk

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Mar 15, 2015, 3:09:16 PM3/15/15
to
On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 11:33:14 AM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:
> On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 3:31:20 AM UTC-4, dk wrote:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbir4_vu6fY
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsm-HaRwI2I
> >
> > Thoughts and comments much appreciated.
> > Lionel, please be specific and refrain
> > from ranting on the state of the world.
>
> Yuja Wang is the clear winner. More backbone, more
> clarity, transparency, more color. The quality that
> she has less of is sticky sentimentality, which also
> ends up being a plus, particularly in Ravel.

OTOH waltzes do not need "backbone", and the clarity is
overdone to the point of annoyance. She really does need
to touch the pedals more often.

dk

HT

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Mar 15, 2015, 5:00:14 PM3/15/15
to

> Or this, Philip Kopachevsky live at the 2011 Moscow Competition :
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVy5bs5XAvE

Seconded! A great performance without the usual o la la effects.

Henk

Bozo

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Mar 15, 2015, 8:35:43 PM3/15/15
to
>On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 4:00:14 PM UTC-5, HT wrote:
> Seconded! A great performance without the usual o la la effects.


His darkly-hued "Kreisleriana" in Moscow was excellent as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNXKvyr9_is

Lionel Tacchini

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Mar 16, 2015, 12:22:41 AM3/16/15
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I thought I got terminally bored with Schumann but this one proves me wrong.

--
Lionel Tacchini

dk

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Mar 16, 2015, 4:14:23 AM3/16/15
to
I spent several hours going back and forth between
Bozhanov, Kopachevsky and Cho Seung-Jin, and didn't
really like B and K. While their performances have
some interesting moments, they sound humorless and
not a bit French to my ears. Rhythms change but
not fluidly, phrases start and end abruptly, as
if to make a point, the sound is relatively dry
and devoid of warmth. Their Valses sound more
like Scriabin or Rachmaninov than like Ravel,
and B's valse almost sounds like Prokofiev in
places.

Thx,

dk

dk

unread,
Mar 16, 2015, 4:18:26 AM3/16/15
to
And I just listened to Kopachevsky's Chopin and
felt like throwing up. This guy really does not
get Chopin!

dk

Tony

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Mar 16, 2015, 4:43:34 AM3/16/15
to
well I guess that's another new thing about your piano competitions -- barf bags for the jurors.

dk

unread,
Mar 16, 2015, 6:21:05 AM3/16/15
to
> well I guess that's another new thing about your
> piano competitions -- barf bags for the jurors.

for the audience too.
and bags of tomatoes!

dk

Bozo

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Mar 16, 2015, 8:03:14 AM3/16/15
to
>On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 11:22:41 PM UTC-5, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
> I thought I got terminally bored with Schumann but this one proves me wrong.

Along with Schuch's debut cd, this Moscow my 2 fav performances of " Kreisleriana", a work , like " Humoresque" , I had not connected with prior,still dont much,but these 2 are more convincing.

Bozo

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Mar 16, 2015, 8:08:20 AM3/16/15
to
>On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 3:18:26 AM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> And I just listened to Kopachevsky's Chopin and
> felt like throwing up. This guy really does not
> get Chopin!

I don't know what you listened to, but I respectfully disagree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBGypUdXO-A ( Barcarolle )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3odMaUSmG84 ( Op.63 Mazurka )

dk

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Mar 16, 2015, 9:25:56 AM3/16/15
to
They are both horrible.

dk

Tony

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Mar 16, 2015, 9:46:07 AM3/16/15
to
That's a very personal reading of op 63/3 so it's bound to put some off, like Dan. I thought it was fantastic -- imaginative and challenging, wonderful use of dynamics, free and vivid. In a world of creative piano competitions, this Chopin-sounding performance would do very well.

Tony

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Mar 16, 2015, 10:14:30 AM3/16/15
to
That's a wonderfully imaginative Kreisleriana, effectively redrawn as these sketches should be to make them sound new and poetic. Not as expressionistic as Natan Brand or Tatiana Ryumina, but certainly a pianist to watch out for.

JohnGavin

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Mar 16, 2015, 11:00:38 AM3/16/15
to
The right hand melody is beautifully and sensitively nuanced. It isn't the only way to approach this Mazurka, but I think it's quite wonderful in its own right.

Tony

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Mar 16, 2015, 11:27:44 AM3/16/15
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What's your opinion of this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67-S1qnoqy4

tomdeacon

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Mar 16, 2015, 11:39:10 AM3/16/15
to
Expressionistic? What CAN you mean?
--
TD

JohnGavin

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Mar 16, 2015, 11:46:08 AM3/16/15
to
You are probably asking Dan, but I'll interject. I know this recording well, - it's extremely heart-wrenching, soulful, painful, and above all memorable. It also makes a mockery out of those who insist that Michelangeli was a cold musician.

HT

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Mar 16, 2015, 12:20:44 PM3/16/15
to
> You are probably asking Dan, but I'll interject. I know this recording well, - it's extremely heart-wrenching, soulful, painful, and above all memorable. It also makes a mockery out of those who insist that Michelangeli was a cold musician.

Yes, it's a remarkable performance - one I would never have associated with Michelangeli.

Henk

Tony

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Mar 16, 2015, 12:22:52 PM3/16/15
to
well said. I feel the same way.

Tony

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Mar 16, 2015, 1:18:55 PM3/16/15
to
On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 4:39:10 PM UTC+1, tomdeacon wrote:
expressionistic: like that moment when you're cycling when you take your hands off the bar and sit up straight and feel like you're flying.

John Wiser

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Mar 16, 2015, 1:24:21 PM3/16/15
to
"Tony" <ezo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a1801213-5228-4666...@googlegroups.com...
Nah, that's impressionistic, like when your face meets the pavement.

jdw

Tony

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Mar 16, 2015, 1:36:55 PM3/16/15
to
On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 6:24:21 PM UTC+1, John Wiser wrote:
> "Tony" wrote in message
haha :) I assure you the resulting stars are purely expressionistic :)

dk

unread,
Mar 17, 2015, 2:03:01 AM3/17/15
to
> What's your opinion of this one?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67-S1qnoqy4

Not his best -- and not waltzy at all.
Sounds more like a nocturne.

dk

dk

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Mar 17, 2015, 2:09:32 AM3/17/15
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Fussy, mannered and not fluid enough. Listen to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=varjpUwyJn4 for
a dose of real Chopin.

dk

Tony

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Mar 17, 2015, 4:20:07 AM3/17/15
to
Sure Jonas is great. I uploaded her 68/4 and just last week told a friend about the story of her walking from Warsaw to Berlin.

When you talk about 'not fluid enough', how often do we hear a performance of a Chopin mazurka that is fluid at all? It's one of the rarest things in piano performance. The little buggers are tricky, and for the most part people are stiff. So when I hear someone like Kopachevsky play with freedom and imagination, I'm absolutely excited and fully welcome that attempt. It's in the spirit of the music, after all. To me it looks like he's on the right path to being an artist as opposed to just a pianist.

What did you think Shchedrin playing 68/4 that I uploaded last week?

dk

unread,
Mar 17, 2015, 4:56:38 AM3/17/15
to
On Tuesday, March 17, 2015 at 1:20:07 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 17, 2015 at 7:09:32 AM UTC+1, dk wrote:
> > On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 6:46:07 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
> > > On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 1:08:20 PM UTC+1, Bozo wrote:
> > > > >On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 3:18:26 AM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> > > > > And I just listened to Kopachevsky's Chopin and
> > > > > felt like throwing up. This guy really does not
> > > > > get Chopin!
> > > >
> > > > I don't know what you listened to, but I respectfully disagree.
> > > >
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBGypUdXO-A ( Barcarolle )
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3odMaUSmG84 ( Op.63 Mazurka )
> > >
> > > That's a very personal reading of op 63/3 so it's bound to put
> > > some off, like Dan. I thought it was fantastic -- imaginative
> > > and challenging, wonderful use of dynamics, free and vivid.
> > > In a world of creative piano competitions, this Chopin-
> > > sounding performance would do very well.
> >
> > Fussy, mannered and not fluid enough. Listen to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=varjpUwyJn4 for
> > a dose of real Chopin.
>
> Sure Jonas is great. I uploaded her 68/4 and just last week
> told a friend about the story of her walking from Warsaw to
> Berlin.

That 68/4 is beyond imagination.

> When you talk about 'not fluid enough', how often do we hear
> a performance of a Chopin mazurka that is fluid at all?

Very infrequently.

> It's one of the rarest things in piano performance.

Indeed.

> The little buggers are tricky, and for the most part people
> are stiff. So when I hear someone like Kopachevsky play with
> freedom and imagination, I'm absolutely excited and fully
> welcome that attempt. It's in the spirit of the music, after
> all. To me it looks like he's on the right path to being an
> artist as opposed to just a pianist.

Understood. At the same time, Kopachevksy does not sound fluid
to my ears. We all have different waxes in our ears ;-)

> What did you think Shchedrin playing 68/4 that I uploaded last
> week?

Haven't had a chance yet, will report as soon as I listen.

dk

dk

unread,
Mar 17, 2015, 4:59:42 AM3/17/15
to
On Tuesday, March 17, 2015 at 1:20:07 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 17, 2015 at 7:09:32 AM UTC+1, dk wrote:
> > On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 6:46:07 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
> > > On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 1:08:20 PM UTC+1, Bozo wrote:
> > > > >On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 3:18:26 AM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> > > > > And I just listened to Kopachevsky's Chopin and
> > > > > felt like throwing up. This guy really does not
> > > > > get Chopin!
> > > >
> > > > I don't know what you listened to, but I respectfully disagree.
> > > >
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBGypUdXO-A ( Barcarolle )
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3odMaUSmG84 ( Op.63 Mazurka )
> > >
> > > That's a very personal reading of op 63/3 so it's bound to put
> > > some off, like Dan. I thought it was fantastic -- imaginative
> > > and challenging, wonderful use of dynamics, free and vivid.
> > > In a world of creative piano competitions, this Chopin-
> > > sounding performance would do very well.
> >
> What did you think Shchedrin playing 68/4 that I uploaded last week?

Very good, and in some ways similar to Jonas,
if a little more drawn out. Thanks for posting.

dk

Bozo

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Mar 17, 2015, 8:46:56 AM3/17/15
to
>On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 8:46:07 AM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
> In a world of creative piano competitions, this Chopin-sounding performance >would do very well.

A few additional Kopachevsky Chopins :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=924kiUH-b2A ( Berceuse )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLvMRcdXHHU ( Mazurka, Op.17,# 4 )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osFsuB0Wxgg ( 5 Waltzes )



O

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Mar 17, 2015, 10:31:35 AM3/17/15
to
In article <db18ef15-f7a9-4c2d...@googlegroups.com>, dk
<dan....@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 11:33:14 AM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 3:31:20 AM UTC-4, dk wrote:
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbir4_vu6fY
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsm-HaRwI2I
> > >
> > > Thoughts and comments much appreciated.
> > > Lionel, please be specific and refrain
> > > from ranting on the state of the world.
> >
> > Yuja Wang is the clear winner. More backbone, more
> > clarity, transparency, more color. The quality that
> > she has less of is sticky sentimentality, which also
> > ends up being a plus, particularly in Ravel.
>
> OTOH waltzes do not need "backbone", and the clarity is
> overdone to the point of annoyance. She really does need
> to touch the pedals more often.

Yuja is the clear winner. Khatia plays it well, but it's all a dreamy
blur. She gets a lot of sound, but little music. Yuja may be too
straightforward for you, and she kept me more engaged in the music
while I was listening.

-Owen, that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

Lionel Tacchini

unread,
Mar 17, 2015, 11:16:43 AM3/17/15
to
To me it sounds like the music is all twisted to make it sound like some
queer and unique thing people could call Chopin if he had actually
existed. Mythical piano playing.
--
Lionel Tacchini

Lionel Tacchini

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Mar 17, 2015, 11:23:47 AM3/17/15
to
This makes sense. Maybe Chopin did exist after all.

--
Lionel Tacchini
Message has been deleted

Bozo

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Mar 17, 2015, 11:47:44 AM3/17/15
to
>On Tuesday, March 17, 2015 at 1:09:32 AM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> Fussy, mannered and not fluid enough. Listen to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=varjpUwyJn4 for
> a dose of real Chopin.

If this is " real Chopin" one wonders what the fuss was all about ?

JohnGavin

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Mar 17, 2015, 12:05:41 PM3/17/15
to
Her playing is subtly beautiful and luminous. It's playing that is classic without drawing undue attention to itself.

Frank Berger

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Mar 17, 2015, 1:54:19 PM3/17/15
to
On 3/17/2015 12:05 PM, JohnGavin wrote:
> Her playing is subtly beautiful and luminous. It's playing that is classic without drawing undue attention to itself.
>

Yes, Marylin Jones' playing is about the same as Maryla's.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

Message has been deleted

Frank Berger

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Mar 17, 2015, 1:58:16 PM3/17/15
to
That should have been Marilyn. I violated a fundamental RMCR rule:
Don't make a mistake when correcting someone.

Tony

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Mar 17, 2015, 2:15:03 PM3/17/15
to
On Tuesday, March 17, 2015 at 6:57:10 PM UTC+1, HT wrote:
> > If this is " real Chopin" one wonders what the fuss was all about ?
>
> <g> It was about what DK liked or didn't like. It doesn't happen often but I second his like of Marilyn Jones - a wonderful musician and pianist.
>
> Henk

Maryla Jonas probably would have reached Berlin and turned round back to Warsaw if she could have foreseen her name Americanised..
Message has been deleted

laraine

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Mar 18, 2015, 11:04:04 PM3/18/15
to
On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 3:14:23 AM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 7:32:38 AM UTC-7, Bozo wrote:
> > >On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 2:50:29 AM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> > > This may well be the top La Valse on YT:
> >
> > Or this, Philip Kopachevsky live at the 2011 Moscow Competition :
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVy5bs5XAvE
>
> I spent several hours going back and forth between
> Bozhanov, Kopachevsky and Cho Seung-Jin, and didn't
> really like B and K. While their performances have
> some interesting moments, they sound humorless and
> not a bit French to my ears. Rhythms change but
> not fluidly, phrases start and end abruptly, as
> if to make a point, the sound is relatively dry
> and devoid of warmth. Their Valses sound more
> like Scriabin or Rachmaninov than like Ravel,
> and B's valse almost sounds like Prokofiev in
> places.
>
> Thx,
>
> dk

I thought Boz's version was quite unique,
almost a bouncy quality to it without being too much so..

Cho definitely great at Ravel, excellent shimmers, good
performance, seemed maybe a tad long.

Ran across Boris Giltburg doing it, and that one impressed
me a lot for interpretion. I think Kop. does some of that too, IIRC.

To be honest, thought all of the above less standard than Wang's,
though she has one of the most solid endings.

Will continue to listen...

C.

laraine

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Apr 1, 2015, 4:42:58 PM4/1/15
to
I just listened to Khatia's --just perfect for her mood.
It is true that it sounded a little distanced, as though
she were in a room next to the ballroom. But this is now
one of my favorites.

C.

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