Franck organ music
Mike Bottemiller
organ music, but have yet to find it. I have Marie Claire Alain's
1995 2-disc set from Erato, which is far from her best playing. A few
pieces are good; a few are great; a few just don't work (like the
Chorals in E major and B minor - too staccato); most are just
mediocre.
I also have Eric Lebrun's Naxos recordings, which is pretty good, but
the playing is a tad dry and uninspired. My favorite Franck disc is
from little-known American organist James Kosnik, professor of music
at Old Dominion University. I find his playing the most enjoyable
(and properly legato), but the recording quality isn't great - it
sounds rather muddy in spots (but what can one expect from a
relatively amateur recording project).
I haven't had much luck browsing online stores, so I'd appreciate any
input you can offer.
Jan Winter
wrote:
>I'm constantly searching for a definitive collection of César Franck's
>organ music, but have yet to find it.
[snip]
>I haven't had much luck browsing online stores, so I'd appreciate any
>input you can offer.
You certainly miss Albert de Klerk and Jeanne Demessieux. Maybe they
are still available somewhere?
--
Jan Winter, Amsterdam
[j.wi...@xs4all.nl]
There is no such thing as a wrong note
(Art Tatum)
John Gavin
I like Frederick Swann's recording of the 3 Chorales (on Gothic, I
think). Micheal Murray's complete Franck on Telarc has excellent
sound, and the performances are pretty good.
allan evans
extraordinary sense of poetry and line are unrivalled.
Allan Evans
www.arbitetrrecords.com
In article <3e8351c7...@news.seanet.com>, mr...@seanet.com (Mike
Christian Ohn
> I'm constantly searching for a definitive collection of César Franck's
> organ music, but have yet to find it.
My favourite is Louis Robilliard (Festivo).
Jacques Amade (Chamade, a small French label that just went out of
business) and André Marchal (Erato, already mentioned by Allan Evans)
are also very good.
According to http://aeolus-music.com there is another set in preparation
by Stefan Schmidt: considering the quality of his Durufle CD, that
should definitely be watched closely!
John Gavin mentioned Michael Murray: while the sound quality is indeed
up to the usual high standards of Telarc, I don't like Murray's playing,
which is far too stiff for my taste. The same goes for his recent CD
recorded at St-Sulpice: the pieces by Dupre are very well done, but as
soon as he gets back to Frannck (Grande Piece Symphonique), the
metronome kicks in again.
--
Christian Ohn
e-mail: christian|dot|ohn|at|univ|hyphen|valenciennes|dot|fr
Christian Ohn
> You certainly miss Albert de Klerk and Jeanne Demessieux. Maybe they
> are still available somewhere?
I've got de Klerk's Andriessen set (Lindenberg, 4-CD-box), which I like
a lot!
Does his Franck set exist on CD? If so, do you have a reference?
John M. Proffitt
For an excellent combination of recording, instrument and playing you
might want to check out the single disc of American organist Frank Speller
(a Demessieux pupil) on Gothic 49125.
The instrument is the eclectic Visser-Rowland tracker-action organ at the
University of Texas - Austin. An unusual choice, perhaps, but extremely
effective in French Romantic works. And Speller really has this music in
his blood.
Regards,
--
John Proffitt
KUHF-FM, Houston, Texas USA
<JPro...@kuhf.org>
Jan Winter
wrote:
[Albert de Klerk]
>Does his Franck set exist on CD? If so, do you have a reference?
Dutch Sony SBK 44857/9 (3cd's, the last one filled up with two Liszt
pieces).
Probably way out of print, but they used to be in the cheap bins here
some years ago.
Alexander Damyanovich
"Mike Bottemiller" <mr...@seanet.com> wrote in message
news:3e8351c7...@news.seanet.com...
> I'm constantly searching for a definitive collection of César Franck's
>
Another one to try out is Wolfgang Rübsam on Bayer Records (the recording
was originally done by Deutsche Grammophon Gesellschaft) - excellent playing
on a genuine Cavaillé-Coll at la Cathédrale de Saint-Croix in Orléans,
France. [When originally issued in 1983, Grammophone magazine gave it 3
stars out of 3.] Best of luck...
Samir Golescu
On 28 Mar 2003, allan evans wrote:
> André Marchal on Erato. Marchal studied with 3 Franck pupils and his
> extraordinary sense of poetry and line are unrivalled.
For what is worth, here is what a friend -- and imho an amazing organist,
that's why i'm quoting him -- had to tell me about Marchal:
<<Andre Marchal was truly un Grand Maitre. Many French organists of his
generation were taught to play in a very strict, bookish style, with no
inflection of any kind--no articulation, no rubato, no agogics, etc.;
others tended to play in a mannered, distorted way. Marchal was one of
the very few organists of his generation to escape these trends and play
naturally and poetically. The two trends (I'll call them "musical
dialects") that prevailed in French organ playing throughout the 20th
century really make for interesting discussion. Marchal doesn't fit well
into either "camp". I might say that he's like the Arthur Rubinstein of
the organ.>>
regards,
SG
Mike Bottemiller
>was originally done by Deutsche Grammophon Gesellschaft) - excellent playing
>on a genuine Cavaillé-Coll at la Cathédrale de Saint-Croix in Orléans,
>France. [When originally issued in 1983, Grammophone magazine gave it 3
>stars out of 3.] Best of luck...
What's the deal with Rübsam? According to some, his older Bach
recordings are gold, while his newer stuff is ponderous and dull. I
have some of his Naxos Bach, and the playing is consistently
indifferent.
Still, I'll check out the Franck you recommend. Hopefully a North
American store carries it.
James E Goodzeit
I really like the Murray set, though not without some reservations. I
don't think he's stiff at all (though it seems he approach the music
with too much reverence, and is a bit too restrained). A really stiff
performance would be perhaps the Final in B flat on his Davies
Symphony Hall recording. (Incidentally, there is an amazing
performance of that piece, every bit as exuberant as the music
warrents, Murray made in his pre-Telarc days.)
How is the Widor on the recent St-Sulpice recording anyway? The
recording he made earlier of the 6th symphony finale at St. John the
Divine has to be one of my all time favorites.
Also, Franck apparently wrote approximately 100 short chorale
preludes. How are they? Have they been recorded?
John Gavin
There's an old set (probably out of print) by Jean Langlais - I had it
as a teenager but it disappeared many years ago. Anyone know this
recording?
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
following letters to be typed in
news:907443c3.03032...@posting.google.com:
> Also, Franck apparently wrote approximately 100 short chorale
> preludes. How are they? Have they been recorded?
If you mean the works which make up "L'Organiste," they show up from time
to time. There's a group of seven of them, played by Neil Wright on the
Cavaillé-Coll organ of Farnborough Abbey on recently-issued Priory PRCD 802
(which I admit I bought for the three short Berlioz works, here recorded as
a group for the first time).
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Mark Coy tossed off eBay? http://makeashorterlink.com/?M2B734C02
RMCR's most pointless, dumb and laughable chowderhead: Mark Coy.
allan evans
dag...@comcast.net (John Gavin) wrote:
Correct and somewhat dull. He was best in his own music.
Christian Ohn
> genuine Cavaillé-Coll
Most of the other recommendations are, too.
> at la Cathédrale de Saint-Croix in Orléans, France.
Hardly a "genuine" Cavaillé-Coll, since its "restauration" (or, rather,
butchering) in 1979-80. The amazing thing is that the sound is still
beautiful! Such was the genius of Cavaillé-Coll...
Coming back to Rübsam, I don't find his Franck particularly well done,
neither in comparison with some of his other recordings (his earlier Bach
cycle, or his recent set of Vierne's Pièces de Fantaisie), nor in
comparison with some other Franck sets out there.
Christian Ohn
> Dutch Sony SBK 44857/9 (3cd's, the last one filled up with two Liszt
> pieces).
> Probably way out of print, but they used to be in the cheap bins here
> some years ago.
Thanks! I'll try to locate it.
Christian Ohn
> I really like the Murray set, though not without some reservations. I
> don't think he's stiff at all (though it seems he approach the music
> with too much reverence, and is a bit too restrained).
I think Murray's problem is not so much reverence for Franck as reverence
for his master, Dupré, and the latter's metronomical playing style.
> How is the Widor on the recent St-Sulpice recording anyway?
I was disappointed. Too slow, too heavy, he doesn't "lift" the piece off.
The fact that he plays the heavy instrument of St-Sulpice has nothing to do
with it: Dupré's Carillon, on the same CD, *does* have a much livelier
pace.
> Also, Franck apparently wrote approximately 100 short chorale
> preludes. How are they? Have they been recorded?
This set, called "l'Organiste", has actually been written for harmonium, and
there is a complete recording of it on that instrument by Joris Verdin (on
Ricercar, a relatively small Belgian label). I find that music second rate
and somewhat boring.
Christian Ohn
> For what is worth, here is what a friend -- and imho an amazing organist,
> that's why i'm quoting him -- had to tell me about Marchal:
Could you tell us who he is? Is he known (at least to organ afficionados)?
> <<Andre Marchal was truly un Grand Maitre. Many French organists of his
> generation were taught to play in a very strict, bookish style, with no
> inflection of any kind--no articulation, no rubato, no agogics, etc.;
A clear reference to the Dupré school, which had total control over the
(only!) organ class at the Paris Conservatoire from 1926 (when Dupré was
appointed) till 1987 (when his pupil and successor Rolande Falcinelli
retired).
> others tended to play in a mannered, distorted way.
Hmm. No French organist of Dupré's and Marchal's generation I'm aware of
played in a particularly mannered way. So I'm wondering who that might
be...
> Marchal was one of
> the very few organists of his generation to escape these trends and play
> naturally and poetically. The two trends (I'll call them "musical
> dialects") that prevailed in French organ playing throughout the 20th
> century really make for interesting discussion. Marchal doesn't fit well
> into either "camp". I might say that he's like the Arthur Rubinstein of
> the organ.>>
A beautiful and very fitting description of that great organist!
Jan Winter
wrote:
>This set, called "l'Organiste", has actually been written for harmonium, and
>there is a complete recording of it on that instrument by Joris Verdin (on
>Ricercar, a relatively small Belgian label). I find that music second rate
>and somewhat boring.
A lot of these pieces are a great pleasure to play, especially -
indeed - if one has a harmonium at hand. But playing pieces is not the
same as listening to them. I don't think I would ever buy a cd with
them.
--
Jan Winter, Amsterdam
(j.wi...@xs4all.nl)
John Gavin
I would very much like to hear a complete Franck set with organist
Thomas Trotter. I was listening to an all Dupre CD by him yesterday
and admiring his playing enormously. I also have an all-Alain disk, a
Liszt and a Messiaen CD by him - all excellent - and well recorded by
Decca and Argo. His playing has wonderful clarity (due to registration
choices and fine engineering) and a pliancy of phrasing - I can sense
that his Franck would be fabulous. And along with Franck, how about
an all Durufle disk from Trotter as well.
Christian Ohn
> I would very much like to hear a complete Franck set with organist
> Thomas Trotter. I was listening to an all Dupre CD by him yesterday
> and admiring his playing enormously. I also have an all-Alain disk, a
> Liszt and a Messiaen CD by him - all excellent - and well recorded by
> Decca and Argo. His playing has wonderful clarity (due to registration
> choices and fine engineering) and a pliancy of phrasing - I can sense
> that his Franck would be fabulous. And along with Franck, how about
> an all Durufle disk from Trotter as well.
I like most of what Thomas Trotter has done so far - indeed, he always
strives for maximum clarity. A Franck set by him would no doubt have high
quality.
The only exception is the Dupré CD you mention, which I don't like: the
playing is immaculate, but he doesn't bring life into that music. Heck,
Dupré himself, who was known for rather rigid and strict playing, played
his "Symphonie Passion" with more passion (pun not intended) than Trotter.
Another example: compare Trotter's version of the Toccata from the Second
Symphony to Falcinelli's version (on "Grosse Organistinnen", an "organ"
CD). In both versions, you can hear all the notes, but my God, Falcinelli's
playing really knocked my socks off!
James E Goodzeit
> je...@acsu.buffalo.edu (James E Goodzeit) appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in
> news:907443c3.03032...@posting.google.com:
>
> > Also, Franck apparently wrote approximately 100 short chorale
> > preludes. How are they? Have they been recorded?
>
> If you mean the works which make up "L'Organiste," they show up from time
> to time. There's a group of seven of them, played by Neil Wright on the
> Cavaillé-Coll organ of Farnborough Abbey on recently-issued Priory PRCD 802
> (which I admit I bought for the three short Berlioz works, here recorded as
> a group for the first time).
Berlioz wrote works for the organ?!
Thanks -- re-reading the liner notes for the Murray set, "L'Organiste"
would fit the bill.
James E Goodzeit
> James E Goodzeit wrote:
> > I really like the Murray set, though not without some reservations. I
> > don't think he's stiff at all (though it seems he approach the music
> > with too much reverence, and is a bit too restrained).
>
> I think Murray's problem is not so much reverence for Franck as reverence
> for his master, Dupré, and the latter's metronomical playing style.
>
Spot on. "I try always to play Franck as Dupré taught me." --M. Murray
[snip more helpful feedback--thanks!]
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
following letters to be typed in
> "Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)"
> <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:<Xns934D735219...@207.217.77.23>...
>> je...@acsu.buffalo.edu (James E Goodzeit) appears to have caused the
>> following letters to be typed in
>> news:907443c3.03032...@posting.google.com:
>>
>> > Also, Franck apparently wrote approximately 100 short chorale
>> > preludes. How are they? Have they been recorded?
>>
>> If you mean the works which make up "L'Organiste," they show up from
>> time to time. There's a group of seven of them, played by Neil Wright
>> on the Cavaillé-Coll organ of Farnborough Abbey on recently-issued
>> Priory PRCD 802 (which I admit I bought for the three short Berlioz
>> works, here recorded as a group for the first time).
>
> Berlioz wrote works for the organ?!
Three short pieces for the "orgue mélodique," an instrument invented by a
friend which was supposed to compete in the marketplace with the harmonium.
Since I've had to explain what it was, you can see how that turned out.
Well, at least another friend of Berlioz invented an instrument that was
rather more successful.
> Thanks -- re-reading the liner notes for the Murray set, "L'Organiste"
> would fit the bill.
--
Samir Golescu
Christian:
> Samir Golescu wrote:
> > For what is worth, here is what a friend -- and imho an amazing organist,
> > that's why i'm quoting him -- had to tell me about Marchal:
>
> Could you tell us who he is? Is he known (at least to organ afficionados)?
I don't know whether he is known. Generally I avoid "advertising" anything
related to myself or to my teachers or students or friends, but I guess
that mentioning the name of this impressive organist/musician won't hurt
anybody: Dana Robinson.
> > <<Andre Marchal was truly un Grand Maitre. Many French organists of his
> > generation were taught to play in a very strict, bookish style, with no
> > inflection of any kind--no articulation, no rubato, no agogics, etc.;
>
> A clear reference to the Dupré school, which had total control over the
> (only!) organ class at the Paris Conservatoire from 1926 (when Dupré was
> appointed) till 1987 (when his pupil and successor Rolande Falcinelli
> retired).
>
> > others tended to play in a mannered, distorted way.
>
> Hmm. No French organist of Dupré's and Marchal's generation I'm aware of
> played in a particularly mannered way. So I'm wondering who that might
> be...
I'll ask next time I get a chance. . . ( :
> > Marchal was one of
> > the very few organists of his generation to escape these trends and play
> > naturally and poetically. The two trends (I'll call them "musical
> > dialects") that prevailed in French organ playing throughout the 20th
> > century really make for interesting discussion. Marchal doesn't fit well
> > into either "camp". I might say that he's like the Arthur Rubinstein of
> > the organ.>>
>
> A beautiful and very fitting description of that great organist!
I will make sure to listen to him soon!
regards,
SG
Alexander Damyanovich
> Alexander Damyanovich wrote:
> > genuine Cavaillé-Coll
>
> Most of the other recommendations are, too.
>
> > at la Cathédrale de Saint-Croix in Orléans, France.
>
> Hardly a "genuine" Cavaillé-Coll, since its "restauration" (or, rather,
> butchering) in 1979-80. The amazing thing is that the sound is still
> beautiful! Such was the genius of Cavaillé-Coll...
What do you mean, sound still beautiful yet the instrument was butchered?!
This particularly when the specs were altered only for ONE stop (the Positif
de Dos Unda Maris 8' was sacrificed for a Tierce at 1,3/5') - were the other
stops revoiced??
>
> Coming back to Rübsam, I don't find his Franck particularly well done,
> neither in comparison with some of his other recordings (his earlier Bach
> cycle, or his recent set of Vierne's Pièces de Fantaisie), nor in
> comparison with some other Franck sets out there.
I found Rübsam magisterial without being dead or boring - phrases breathing
fully and well-shaped, all the mysticism of Franck properly explored and
presented, good tempi (the Finale sounds truly noble instead of the piece of
junk it can so easily become!) and simply-beautiful playing without
exaggeration.
Christian Ohn
> What do you mean, sound still beautiful yet the instrument was
butchered?!
Yes, it still sounds beautiful. It just doesn't sound like a "genuine
Cavaillé-Coll" anymore. (I've listened to the instrument both live and
on recordings.)
> This particularly when the specs were altered only for ONE stop (the
Positif
> de Dos Unda Maris 8' was sacrificed for a Tierce at 1,3/5')
Stoplists aren't a good indicator of what's going on. St-Sernin
(Toulouse) had its stoplist altered in the 1930s, and restored to its
original state in the 1990s, yet the latter restauration was less
faithful than the former.
> - were the other stops revoiced??
The whole instrument was retuned to A=440Hz by cutting all the flue
pipes and reworking all the reeds. That's what I call butchering.
Si
"Mike Bottemiller" <mr...@seanet.com> wrote in message
news:3e8351c7...@news.seanet.com...
> I'm constantly searching for a definitive collection of César Franck's
> organ music, but have yet to find it.
Indeed!!!
I would particularly like to hear a Ben van Oosten recording of this music,
since as far as I'm concerned he's the clear leader in much of the French
Romantic organ repertoire on CD. I've heard him play some of Franck's pieces
live and they were superb.
When I was lucky enough to meet him last year I asked if he had any plans to
record the complete Franck. He replied that since Franck was quite old when
he wrote a lot of his best music, he (BvO) feels he should be a little older
before he records it. He suggested that he might do it in about 10 years, so
if you're willing to wait...
:-)
Si
Christian Ohn
> I would particularly like to hear a Ben van Oosten recording of this music,
> since as far as I'm concerned he's the clear leader in much of the French
> Romantic organ repertoire on CD.
Heartily seconded!
> When I was lucky enough to meet him last year I asked if he had any plans to
> record the complete Franck. He replied that since Franck was quite old when
> he wrote a lot of his best music, he (BvO) feels he should be a little older
> before he records it. He suggested that he might do it in about 10 years, so
> if you're willing to wait...
When I met him in 1998, I asked him the same question, and his reply
back then was: "Maybe." So what you're saying is already an improvement:-)
Besides, his Dupré project (which I don't really like, BTW) should keep
him busy for a number of years to come...
Mike Bottemiller
>since as far as I'm concerned he's the clear leader in much of the French
>Romantic organ repertoire on CD. I've heard him play some of Franck's pieces
>live and they were superb.
I have a couple of van Oosten's Widor CDs (organ symphonies 3&4, 5&6),
and his recording of Vierne's Four Organ Suites. I especially like
his rendition of Widor's 3rd Organ Sym. in E minor, and each of
Vierne's 24 Pieces are near-perfect or perfect. The Carillon de
Westminster is simply breathtaking. Trying not to sound too much
like a music critic, I'd say van Oosten masterfully blends academic
insight and disciplined playing with artistic interpretation.
As far as wanting to wait for an advanced age to record Franck, I find
that absurd. He's recorded all of Widor's organ music (if I'm wrong,
please correct me), some of which was written well past age 68 -
Franck's age at death. If what you say is accurate, he could at least
record Franck's Six Pieces, written between the late 1850s and early
1860s, when Franck was in his mid-late 30s.
Si
> I have a couple of van Oosten's Widor CDs (organ symphonies 3&4, 5&6),
> and his recording of Vierne's Four Organ Suites. I especially like
> his rendition of Widor's 3rd Organ Sym. in E minor, and each of
> Vierne's 24 Pieces are near-perfect or perfect. The Carillon de
> Westminster is simply breathtaking. Trying not to sound too much
> like a music critic, I'd say van Oosten masterfully blends academic
> insight and disciplined playing with artistic interpretation.
Agreed, and I don't think you sound like a music critic at all!!!
> As far as wanting to wait for an advanced age to record Franck, I find
> that absurd. He's recorded all of Widor's organ music (if I'm wrong,
> please correct me), some of which was written well past age 68 -
> Franck's age at death. If what you say is accurate, he could at least
> record Franck's Six Pieces, written between the late 1850s and early
> 1860s, when Franck was in his mid-late 30s.
Well, I don't want to second guess what Mr. van Oosten meant when he said
it -- it was quite a light-hearted conversation at the time and I didn't
really press him on the subject. What I took him to mean is that the
interpretation of a lot of Franck's organ music benefits from maturity, and
he wants to wait a while until he feels he's achieved that before recording
the works. This may or may not be what he was saying, but that's my
understanding of it.
I was kind of disappointed!! I think the rest of us would be pretty happy to
play the works the way he does right now!!
Si
PS Of course, given that I had played (or maybe, attempted to play!)
Franck's Choral No. 3 at a masterclass with him a couple of days earlier,
maybe this was a way of suggesting that I leave the music alone for a few
years. :-)
Alexander Damyanovich
news:3E894166...@univ-valenciennes.fr...
> Alexander Damyanovich wrote:
> > What do you mean, sound still beautiful yet the instrument was
> butchered?!
>
> Yes, it still sounds beautiful. It just doesn't sound like a "genuine
> Cavaillé-Coll" anymore. (I've listened to the instrument both live and
> on recordings.)
You heard it before the Härpfer rebuild of 1979-80 (either way)? What was
it like (in terms of what you could hear of the reeds, mixtures,
foundations, etc. - at least generally)? E.g., did the mixtures (on the
Grand-Orgue, Positif {apparently on the Franck recording in question, they
didn't get to use the Positif Plein-Jeu V when the "Anches du Positif" are
called for, apparently since that division doesn't have the preparation
mechanism that the other divisions have) end up brighter or duller - or
about the same?
>
> > This particularly when the specs were altered only for ONE stop (the
> Positif
> > de Dos Unda Maris 8' was sacrificed for a Tierce at 1,3/5')
>
> Stoplists aren't a good indicator of what's going on. St-Sernin
> (Toulouse) had its stoplist altered in the 1930s, and restored to its
> original state in the 1990s, yet the latter restauration was less
> faithful than the former.
Is that to say that the return to the original stoplist wasn't done as well
as the initial alterations in the 1930s by Puget?
>
> > - were the other stops revoiced??
>
> The whole instrument was retuned to A=440Hz by cutting all the flue
> pipes and reworking all the reeds. That's what I call butchering.
>
It well might end up (have ended up in this case) a butchery if it's done
without great care not to consequently alter the scaling. [What was the
original pitch - A=435 Hz.?] Since you happen to know more about this
instrument than me, can I then ask you if it's cone-tuned, or if it has
tuning slides and/or scrolls on the flue-pipes (if you happen to know this
part)?
Christian Ohn
> [...]
> As far as wanting to wait for an advanced age to record Franck, I find
> that absurd. He's recorded all of Widor's organ music (if I'm wrong,
> please correct me), some of which was written well past age 68 -
> Franck's age at death. If what you say is accurate, he could at least
> record Franck's Six Pieces, written between the late 1850s and early
> 1860s, when Franck was in his mid-late 30s.
Widor wrote most of his best organ works between the ages of 35
(Symphonies 5 & 6) and 55 (Symphonie Romane), the only notable exception
being the Suite Latine (written at age 82). Franck wrote most of his
best organ works between the ages of 55 (Trois Pièces) and 68 (Trois
Chorals), the only notable exception being the Prière (written before
the age of 40). So I think there is a point here.
Besides, maybe van Oosten feels that his own maturity as a player
doesn't yet match even that of Six Pièces, although he has now passed
the age of Franck at the time these pieces were written. That would be
yet another sign of the humility of this great Dutchman towards the
composers he plays.
Another point is, as I already mentioned, the fact that he's currently
recording Dupré's organ works: if you have the choice between recording
Dupré at 45 and Franck at 55, or vice-versa, then the first solution is
clearly the better one.
Mike Bottemiller
instrument on a few occasions (all electric organs), I can't say
what's more difficult to play, but it seems to me Franck's later
works, the 3 chorals in particular, represent the pinnacle of
challenging organ repertoire. I have the music for all of Franck's
major works and pretty much all of Bach's organ catalog, and it seems
Franck would demand someone of the utmost skill and maturity. Even
among the great modern organists, Franck is rarely played well, it
seems - though that's due to a lack of open, spontaneous playing,
rather than lack of skill.
Christian Ohn
> You heard it before the Härpfer rebuild of 1979-80?
No I didn't; I drew my comments from comparison with (really) genuine
Cavaillé-Coll's: to my perception, Orléans has less round flue stops and
more acid mixtures.
> Is that to say that the return to the original stoplist [at St-Sernin,
> Toulouse] wasn't done as well as the initial alterations in the 1930s by
> Puget?
Yes, definitely. Puget didn't alter the voicing of the existing stops,
whereas Boisseau and Cattiaux did.
> It well might end up (have ended up in this case) a butchery if it's done
> without great care not to consequently alter the scaling.
It was done at the last minute, at the request of the local clergy.
> [What was the
> original pitch - A=435 Hz.?] Since you happen to know more about this
> instrument than me, can I then ask you if it's cone-tuned, or if it has
> tuning slides and/or scrolls on the flue-pipes (if you happen to know this
> part)?
I'm sorry, but I don't know.
Alexander Damyanovich
"Christian Ohn" <s...@end.of.message> wrote in message
>
> Widor wrote most of his best organ works between the ages of 35
> (Symphonies 5 & 6) and 55 (Symphonie Romane), the only notable exception
> being the Suite Latine (written at age 82). Franck wrote most of his
> Chorals), the only notable exception being the Priere (written before
> the age of 40). So I think there is a point here.
>
(Op.19) - especially the former - as being no less deserving of the list,
though the Priere is really something extra-special. [If I dare boast (but
truthfully), it was a privilege for me to play it at my church today for the
pre-service prelude; the postlude was the Choral #3 in a.]
Christian Ohn
> Since I'm not an organist, and have only played a multi-keyboard
> instrument on a few occasions (all electric organs), I can't say
> what's more difficult to play, but it seems to me Franck's later
> works, the 3 chorals in particular, represent the pinnacle of
> challenging organ repertoire.
On the whole, Widor is technically much more demanding than Franck. Not
to mention Dupré or Demessieux!
> I have the music for all of Franck's
> major works and pretty much all of Bach's organ catalog, and it seems
> Franck would demand someone of the utmost skill and maturity. Even
> among the great modern organists, Franck is rarely played well, it
> seems - though that's due to a lack of open, spontaneous playing,
> rather than lack of skill.
Have you listened to Joris Verdin's Franck set (published by Ricercar)?
If you look for spontaneous playing, he's pretty much top notch.
Mike Bottemiller
>to mention Dupré or Demessieux!
I'm afraid I've only listened to a small chunk of Widor's output. I
plan on collecting all of van Oosten's Widor library. Vierne also
seems pretty demanding, and I haven't even heard of Demessieux...is he
primarily a 20th century figure?
>Have you listened to Joris Verdin's Franck set (published by Ricercar)?
>If you look for spontaneous playing, he's pretty much top notch.
No, but I'll look for it. Classical selection in local music stores
is typically poor, and I haven't had much more luck shopping on the
Net. Another French great I'm looking into is Gigout, but I wouldn't
know where to start for recordings.
Christian Ohn
> I'm afraid I've only listened to a small chunk of Widor's output. I
> plan on collecting all of van Oosten's Widor library.
That's indeed the best Widor set around.
> Vierne also seems pretty demanding,
Yes he is! BTW, van Oosten has also recorded all of Vierne's organ works.
> and I haven't even heard of Demessieux...is he
> primarily a 20th century figure?
Yes, *s*he is: Jeanne Demessieux, 1921-1968, pupil of Marcel Dupré (but
for hitherto unelucidated reasons, they quarreled in 1946 and never
spoke to each other again). She wrote a relatively small number of organ
works: her "Six Études" are probably still the pinnacle of pedal
technique, but some other works, such as the Twelve Chorale-Preludes,
are much more accessible, both musically to the listener and technically
to the player.
> Another French great I'm looking into is Gigout, but I wouldn't
> know where to start for recordings.
Gerard Brooks has started recording Gigout's complete organ works for
Priory. So far, vols. 1 & 2 are out; see http://www.priory.org.uk
Alexander Damyanovich
> Mike Bottemiller wrote:
> > I'm afraid I've only listened to a small chunk of Widor's output. I
> > plan on collecting all of van Oosten's Widor library.
>
> That's indeed the best Widor set around.
>
> > Vierne also seems pretty demanding,
>
> Yes he is! BTW, van Oosten has also recorded all of Vierne's organ works.
>
> > primarily a 20th century figure?
>
> > know where to start for recordings.
>
major works of Max Reger (Bavarian German, 1873-1916) - wait until you look
at his Opi 57, 73 and 127. These three works (as well as to a lesser extent
Opi 27, 29, 46, 52 and 135b) really separate the men from the boys! [As to
recordings: no opinion as having not had much chance to sample almost
any...:(]
Christian Ohn
> All of these people [Franck, Widor, Gigout, Vierne, Demessieux]
> are technically in all likelihood easy compared to the
> major works of Max Reger (Bavarian German, 1873-1916) - wait until you look
> at his Opi 57, 73 and 127. These three works (as well as to a lesser extent
> Opi 27, 29, 46, 52 and 135b) really separate the men from the boys! [As to
> recordings: no opinion as having not had much chance to sample almost
> any...:(]
*All* of these people? Reger is more difficult than Franck or Gigout, no
doubt about that. But have you actually *looked* at Demessieux's "Six
Études", or even Vierne's symphonies?
BTW, I prefer to choose my listening on musical rather than technical
grounds...
Alexander Damyanovich
"Christian Ohn" <s...@end.of.message> wrote in message
> Alexander Damyanovich wrote:
> > All of these people [Franck, Widor, Gigout, Vierne, Demessieux]
> > are technically in all likelihood easy compared to the
> > major works of Max Reger (Bavarian German, 1873-1916) - wait until you
look
> > at his Opi 57, 73 and 127. These three works (as well as to a lesser
extent
> > Opi 27, 29, 46, 52 and 135b) really separate the men from the boys! [As
to
> > recordings: no opinion as having not had much chance to sample almost
> > any...:(]
>
> *All* of these people? Reger is more difficult than Franck or Gigout, no
> doubt about that. But have you actually *looked* at Demessieux's "Six
> Études", or even Vierne's symphonies?
Copies of the scores of Vierne's Symphonies #1 (the outer movements of which
I've played at church a few times) and #3 are in my possession and have been
examined. As to Demessieux (and her alone): there I better retract, not
having seen the music. Mea gravissima culpa (though I counted on much
French music as being flashy but not all that extremely difficult - Reger
reminds me of Brahms as having technical (as well as musical) difficulties
without being flashy...).
>
> BTW, I prefer to choose my listening on musical rather than technical
> grounds...
Good idea...
Christian Ohn
> Copies of the scores of Vierne's Symphonies #1 (the outer movements of which
> I've played at church a few times) and #3 are in my possession and have been
> examined.
How about the outer movements and the Scherzo of #6? Or the Finale of #5?
> As to Demessieux (and her alone): there I better retract, not
> having seen the music. Mea gravissima culpa (though I counted on much
> French music as being flashy but not all that extremely difficult
Most of Dupré's output is both flashy and difficult: Symphony #2 op.26,
Suite op.39, Two Esquisses op.41 and Tryptique op.51 are probably the
best examples. Granted, musically speaking, I don't put him in the same
league as Vierne, though he can be very profound (e.g. Stations of the
Cross op.29).
Duruflé certainly isn't flashy (except for the Toccata, which he
regretted publishing), but can be pretty difficult (e.g. Prelude and
Fugue op.7).
> - Reger
> reminds me of Brahms as having technical (as well as musical) difficulties
> without being flashy...).
Well, Reger's music may not be flashy, but it's just like his name:
whether read forwards or backwards, it's exactly the same. It really
reminds me of those heavy Christmas meals, with lots of meat, followed
by an odd sensation of a stone in your stomach.
I'd prefer Brahms any day.
Mike Bottemiller
transcriptions of Bach's organ works. At least I've found the Prelude
and Fugue in D major (BWV 532) extremely challenging. Then again, I'm
not a great pianist.
And speaking of Bach organ transcriptions, I'm looking for recordings
of Busoni and/or Liszt transcriptions. Any help is appreciated.
Tony Movshon
> And speaking of Bach organ transcriptions, I'm looking for recordings
> of Busoni and/or Liszt transcriptions. Any help is appreciated.
I've had considerable enjoyment from these:
Nicolai Demidenko, two excellent disks on Hyperion.
Vladimir Viardo on I-forget-what-label.
Artur Pizarro on Collins (I guess on nothing right now ...)
There's also some Busoni on Brendel's old Bach recital on Philips, which
is very good but perhaps nla.
And of course Michelangeli is superb, perhaps supreme, in the Busoni
transcription of the Chaconne (Lugano 1973 recital recording, better on
Ermitage or Aura than M&A).
I didn't get much pleasure from Paik's recent disk on Decca, which
struck me as sludgy in the extreme. Perahia's recent partial-disk is
completely Perahia-esque -- if you like him, you'll like the disk, and
if you don't ...
Tony Movshon
mov...@nyu.edu