"Karajan was no Nazi"
MSten4MHS
Revisited." The gist of the article debunks the oft-stated myth that HvK was
some kind of card-carrying Nazi who used his position in the Third Reich to
advance his career.
The significance of the debunking is that the author is none other than Paul
Moor, the same Paul Moor who put Karajan's "Naxi past" on the map with his
October 1957 High Fidelity article on Karajan. In the 1957 HF article, Moor
stated: "Once and for all, to set the record straight..." and then went on to
detail what he believed were the documented, undeniable facts that made
Karajan's version (and denials) of said "facts" to be held as obfustication -
or worse.
Moor has now come round close to 180 degrees on this subject. He cites Richard
Osborne's extensive new biography of Karajan as a source of some info, though
he takes issue with some of Osborne's acceptance of recent research and sheds
some new light of his own on the subject.
Having read Osborne's recent book (which was a fascinating read - who knew that
Karajan championed so much contemporary music over the length of his career?!),
I find myself in agreement with Mr. Moor, though I will admit that I've never
been one to swallow the "Karajan=Nazi" position.
Surely, at this late date (10 years after his death) the time is overdue to
finally set these now substantially debunked accusations to rest. It would seem
to me that even the most diehard Karajan hater should take a moment to reassess
their position which - according to Mr. Moor, at least - was largely founded on
an at best incomplete reading of the historic record and extensive
documentation concerning this much-maligned musician.
Comments?
Mark Stenroos
Matthew B. Tepper
In article <19990426160539...@ng125.aol.com>,
mste...@aol.com pondered what I'm pondering as follows...
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/index.htm
My main music page --- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/berlioz.htm
And my science fiction club's home page --- http://www.lasfs.org/
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
M-T
than Paul Moor, the same Paul Moor who put Karajan's "Naxi past" on the
map with his October 1957 High Fidelity article on Karajan. In the 1957
HF article, Moor stated: "Once and for all, to set the record
straight..." and then went on to detail what he believed were the
documented, undeniable facts that made Karajan's version (and denials)
of said "facts" to be held as obfustication - or worse.>>
Yes, I remember Paul Moor from his participation in rec.music.classical
years ago. If memory serves, he took quite a drubbing in a long argument
with Roger and others (about Strauss, I think). He seemed to be quite
full of himself.
Regards,
mt
paulgo...@my-dejanews.com
mste...@aol.com (MSten4MHS) wrote:
> Just received the Spring 1999 Schwann-Opus in which appears an article
"Karajan
> Revisited." The gist of the article debunks the oft-stated myth that HvK was
> some kind of card-carrying Nazi who used his position in the Third Reich to
> advance his career.
The fact that Karajan was a card-carrying (or card-owning, OK?) member of the
NSDAP is hardly subject to dispute. It is fully documented by Osborne, if
further documentation were necessary. HvK to his credit admitted it during
his denazification proceding. What is subject to debate and individual
interpretation is (1) Karajan's state of mind, e.g. the degree of his
allegiance to the programs and ideology of the NSDAP, and (2) the extent to
which his undisputed party membership furthered his career. Osborne's bio
provides a great deal of information relevant to these issues. Individual
readers can draw their own conclusions from Osborne's apparently even-handed
presentation of the evidence.
[snip stuff about Paul Moor]
> Having read Osborne's recent book (which was a fascinating read - who knew
that
> Karajan championed so much contemporary music over the length of his
career?!),
> I find myself in agreement with Mr. Moor, though I will admit that I've never
> been one to swallow the "Karajan=Nazi" position.
>
> Surely, at this late date (10 years after his death) the time is overdue to
> finally set these now substantially debunked accusations to rest. It would
seem
> to me that even the most diehard Karajan hater should take a moment to
reassess
> their position which - according to Mr. Moor, at least - was largely founded
on
> an at best incomplete reading of the historic record and extensive
> documentation concerning this much-maligned musician.
For many, the fact that HvK willingly joined the NSDAP in 1933 provides ample
basis for hating, boycotting, and/or maligning him. I don't think anyone
disagreeing with this position should be too quick to dismiss it.
Osborne's biography also provides abundant factual basis for finding HvK
rather despicable for all sorts of additional reasons.
In short, Mark, I think you are way, way off base in suggesting that all
previous criticisms of HvK's conduct during the Nazi era (or thereafter for
that matter) have somehow been "debunked."
Paul Goldstein
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Clifford Ando
> Yes, I remember Paul Moor from his participation in rec.music.classical
> years ago. If memory serves, he took quite a drubbing in a long argument
> with Roger and others (about Strauss, I think). He seemed to be quite
> full of himself.
Roger Lustig? How does one get "drubbed" by Roger Lustig? Lulled to
sleep by his liner notes? Or driven first to apoplexy, then to
asphixiation by them? Either is possible, I suppose.
Clifford Ando ca...@usc.edu
Classics Department phone: (213) 740-3683
University of Southern California fax: (213) 740-7360
Los Angeles, CA 90089-0352
Ramon Khalona
career driven music director of Europe who was ambitious and who would
do almost anything to get promoted, and the more private man who may
have, at the very least, reflected on that ambitious stance. In the
book "Conversations with Karajan," there is a glimpse of that second
man, generous in his praise for some of his colleagues (Szell and
Klemperer come to mind) and even very human in his disdain for some of
his competitors (recall his words on Erich Kleiber's return to Europe to
"cleanse this place").
I have read a lot of praise for HvK from some of the current jet-setters
of this trade (Ozawa and Levine come to mind) who may have gotten close
to the man to see that other aspect of his personality. As is usually
the case, the truth may lie somewhere in the middle and that would be no
surprise. Being no Karajan fan or basher, I would not blame anyone for
hating the careerist, Nazi-connected maestro in him. But it is
undeniable that the man accomplished a great deal (esp. in his early
recordings, when he was not so glossy sound-obsessed, and in the field
of opera) and some of the musicians who were close to him might be in a
better position to give us a more accurate picture of the man.
In the film "The Art of Conducting" (vol.1) former BPO timpanist, Werner
Thaerichen, talks of how many musicians actually disliked Karajan after
Furtwaengler but gave him high marks as a good salesman and felt
thankful for their increased standard of life under him. As in many
cases, some good came with the bad.
Regards,
Ramon
--
Ramón Khalona "La razón no sirve para la existencia"
Carlsbad, California - Ernesto Sábato -
Matthew B. Tepper
over the terrible, terrible things he did during the day, then -- to
quote Dorothy Parker and with apologies to certain of our newsgroup
regulars -- I am Marie of Roumania.
samir ghiocel golescu
On 26 Apr 1999, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> If Karajan was in fact an innocent little baa-lamb who wept at night
> over the terrible, terrible things he did during the day, then -- to
> quote Dorothy Parker and with apologies to certain of our newsgroup
> regulars -- I am Marie of Roumania.
And if you were, what could be so bad in that?
In various peaceful isolated places there are dozens of Napoleons...
Vivat Marie of Romania!!
SG
Sacqueboutier
>
> Just received the Spring 1999 Schwann-Opus in which appears an article "Karajan
> Revisited." The gist of the article debunks the oft-stated myth that HvK was
> some kind of card-carrying Nazi who used his position in the Third Reich to
> advance his career.
>
> Moor, the same Paul Moor who put Karajan's "Naxi past" on the map with his
> October 1957 High Fidelity article on Karajan. In the 1957 HF article, Moor
> stated: "Once and for all, to set the record straight..." and then went on to
> detail what he believed were the documented, undeniable facts that made
> Karajan's version (and denials) of said "facts" to be held as obfustication -
> or worse.
>
> Osborne's extensive new biography of Karajan as a source of some info, though
> he takes issue with some of Osborne's acceptance of recent research and sheds
> some new light of his own on the subject.
>
> Karajan championed so much contemporary music over the length of his career?!),
> I find myself in agreement with Mr. Moor, though I will admit that I've never
> been one to swallow the "Karajan=Nazi" position.
>
> Surely, at this late date (10 years after his death) the time is overdue to
> finally set these now substantially debunked accusations to rest. It would seem
> to me that even the most diehard Karajan hater should take a moment to reassess
> their position
Good to hear it. I don't hate Karajan. In general, I never really
cared much for his music making (aside from some truly magnificent
recordings). To me, he usually produced a homogeneous orchestral
blend with mushy rhythms. I don't even hear the famous "Karajan
precision" that he is supposedly known for. Don't get me wrong.
There are several HvK recordings I cherish, but mostly, I find
that he robbed themusic of its inherent color.
I say all of this to illustrate that I didn't really care much about
his political past. I judged his music-making based on the way
it affects me personally. Others do the same and many like his
work. Many don't.
--
Don Patterson
"If you aren't a liberal at the age of twenty,
you have no heart.
"If, by the age of forty, you are not a conservative,
you have no brain."
---Winston Churchill
Eric Schissel
><<The significance of the debunking is that the author is none other
>than Paul Moor, the same Paul Moor who put Karajan's "Naxi past" on the
>map with his October 1957 High Fidelity article on Karajan. In the 1957
>HF article, Moor stated: "Once and for all, to set the record
>straight..." and then went on to detail what he believed were the
>documented, undeniable facts that made Karajan's version (and denials)
>of said "facts" to be held as obfustication - or worse.>>
>Yes, I remember Paul Moor from his participation in rec.music.classical
>years ago. If memory serves, he took quite a drubbing in a long argument
>with Roger and others (about Strauss, I think). He seemed to be quite
>full of himself.
He has since taken up residence in MCML. With no change in behavior or
believability.
-Eric Schissel
--
schi...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/schissel ICQ#7279016
standard disclaimer
Paul Kintzele
Clifford Ando wrote:
>
> Roger Lustig? How does one get "drubbed" by Roger Lustig?
Easy. Just claim that Mozart wrote 1000 works....
Paul
D Krause
news:37252...@news2.lightlink.com...
> He has since taken up residence in MCML. With no change in behavior or
> believability.
Just out of curiosity, what's MCML?
Happy listening.
ATETHIS
dumb remark 110.
Fred
Eric Schissel
A wonderful moderated mailing list for discussion of classical music.
Spam isn't welcome there, and discussions can get very interesting. (They
aren't always so, of course, but they certainly can, and do.)
Alex Leach
no factual basis for finding Karajan in any way despicable. To what are you
referring?
Alex
<paulgo...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
news:7g2o3m$8fd$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
> In article <19990426160539...@ng125.aol.com>,
[snip]
Alex Leach
very confusing.
I'm not sure why Karajan is regarded as a careerist (whatever that means):
he worked in Ulm, Aachen, didn't do so well during the war owing to his
refusal to toe the party line, gave good concerts after the war, became
director of the BPO, and stayed there till he died. What's careerist about
that?
It seems to be the case that Erich Kleiber was the only colleague he
criticised, and that was several years after the latter's death. He even
seems to have gone on record singing the praises of Christoph von Dohnanyi,
for some reason.
Alex
--
alex....@bradford.gov.uk
Matthew B. Tepper <du...@deltanet.com> wrote in message
news:7g35ms$b...@journal.concentric.net...
> If Karajan was in fact an innocent little baa-lamb who wept at night
> over the terrible, terrible things he did during the day, then -- to
> quote Dorothy Parker and with apologies to certain of our newsgroup
> regulars -- I am Marie of Roumania.
>
Jerry M. Bank
the video about him.
When recording the Beethoven Triple with HVK, Richter mentioned that he
was actually
German (German father, Russian mother). Von Karajan's response was that
if Richter was German, then he was Chinese.
I guess that to be a proper German in HVK's eyes you had to be
ethnically pure.
--
Music is the language of the gods.
Jerry M. Bank
Trenton, NJ
Ramon Khalona
>
> Eric Schissel <schi...@adore.lightlink.com> wrote in message
> news:37252...@news2.lightlink.com...
>
> > He has since taken up residence in MCML. With no change in behavior or
> > believability.
>
> Just out of curiosity, what's MCML?
>
Moderated Classical Music Mailing List. You can check their archives
from
http://www.classical.net/
paulgo...@my-dejanews.com
"Alex Leach" <alexand...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> I am mystified by this: having read the Osborne biography twice I can find
> no factual basis for finding Karajan in any way despicable. To what are you
> referring?
>
> Alex
I was referring primarily to his persecution of his brother for using the
Karajan name to promote his accordion ensemble ;-)
Matthew B. Tepper
ate...@aol.com pondered what I'm pondering as follows...
>
>Karajan not-see? Nah, I just think he had his eyes closed.
>
>dumb remark 110.
>
>Fred
Not so dumb; clever!
Sara Freeman
Tepper) writes:
>
>If Karajan was in fact an innocent little baa-lamb who wept at night
>over the terrible, terrible things he did during the day, then -- to
>quote Dorothy Parker and with apologies to certain of our newsgroup
>regulars -- I am Marie of Roumania.
Marie,
If you are talking about "terrible, terrible" political things, I don't
think you will find any. He was basically apolitical and hated dealing
in politics. BTW, Hitler hated his conducting.
>--
>Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
>My personal home page -- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/index.htm
>My main music page --- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/berlioz.htm
>And my science fiction club's home page --- http://www.lasfs.org/
>To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
>
--
Freeone, getting back to her lampshade business.
Sol L. Siegel
>Just received the Spring 1999 Schwann-Opus in which
>appears an article "Karajan Revisited." The gist of the
>article debunks the oft-stated myth that HvK was
>some kind of card-carrying Nazi who used his position in
>the Third Reich to advance his career.
Myth or not (and hard to believe not, considering
that he joined the party twice, in Austria and Germany), his
manner of music-making seemed to leave him open to the
accusation. Herbie the K was, in fact, about the only
musician I repeatedly heard referred to as "That Nazi",
even though other German musicians (let's start with
Bohm and Gieseking) were reputed to be more committed
members.
I recall an interesting article in The New Republic in
the late '80s (before his death, IIRC) which claimed that
the manner of his imposition of will upon the
music he
conducted was compatible with the Nazi mind-set, even
if (as seems possible) he never really cared about
their view of the world.
-Sol Siegel, Philadelphia, PA
---------------------------------------------------------
"You can't tell anything to someone who knows everything."
(Remove "junkfree" from the end of my e-mail address to reply.)
August Helmbright
vod...@aol.comjunkfree (Sol L. Siegel) wrote:
>Herbie the K was, in fact, about the only
> musician I repeatedly heard referred to as "That Nazi",
> even though other German musicians (let's start with
> Bohm and Gieseking) were reputed to be more committed
> members.
I thought I once read that the rumors of Gieseking's Nazi involvement were
later determined to have been cooked up by some of his musical rivals in an
attempt to damage his reputation after the war. Am I dreaming this?
--
August Helmbright
Alex Leach
It could just be that Karajan, like the rest of the musical world and every
reference book about music, regarded Richter as a Russian pianist. How many
of us would describe Richter as German?
Perhaps Karajan regarded Richter's comment as so fatuous as to be
undeserving of a serious response.
Alex
--
alex....@bradford.gov.uk
Jerry M. Bank <bank...@sprintmail.com> wrote in message
news:3725BB...@sprintmail.com...
Alex Leach
I'm not sure how much he 'persecuted' him. I think he regarded his
brother's antics as rather sharp practice, which it most certainly was.
Surely it was an organ ensemble?
Alex
--
alex....@bradford.gov.uk
<paulgo...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
news:7g4lio$tvo$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
> In article <7g4ajh$ud7$2...@newsreader1.core.theplanet.net>,
> "Alex Leach" <alexand...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > I am mystified by this: having read the Osborne biography twice I can
find
> > no factual basis for finding Karajan in any way despicable. To what are
you
> > referring?
> >
> > Alex
>
> I was referring primarily to his persecution of his brother for using the
> Karajan name to promote his accordion ensemble ;-)
>
> Paul Goldstein
>
Richard Sauer
vod...@aol.comjunkfree (Sol L. Siegel) wrote:
>mste...@aol.com (MSten4MHS) writes:
>
>>Just received the Spring 1999 Schwann-Opus in which
>>appears an article "Karajan Revisited." The gist of the
>>article debunks the oft-stated myth that HvK was
>>some kind of card-carrying Nazi who used his position in
>>the Third Reich to advance his career.
>
>Myth or not (and hard to believe not, considering
>that he joined the party twice, in Austria and Germany), his
>manner of music-making seemed to leave him open to the
>accusation. Herbie the K was, in fact, about the only
>musician I repeatedly heard referred to as "That Nazi",
>even though other German musicians (let's start with
>Bohm and Gieseking) were reputed to be more committed
>members.
>
>I recall an interesting article in The New Republic in
>the late '80s (before his death, IIRC) which claimed that
>the manner of his imposition of will upon the
>music he
>conducted was compatible with the Nazi mind-set, even
>if (as seems possible) he never really cared about
>their view of the world.
>
>-Sol Siegel, Philadelphia, PA
Mr. Siegel,
That interesting article in The New Republic was by Edward Rothstein. If I
remember, Rothstein said that Karajan created a disembodied sound through as
you say "his imposition of will upon the music". That article is worth
seeking out.
R.Sauer
paulgo...@my-dejanews.com
"Alex Leach" <alexand...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> ;-) indeed!
>
> I'm not sure how much he 'persecuted' him. I think he regarded his
> brother's antics as rather sharp practice, which it most certainly was.
> Surely it was an organ ensemble?
Yes, you are right, it was an organ ensemble (whatever that might be), not an
accordion ensemble. And you have every right to be HvK's online advocate, if
you like. As for me, I don't find it particularly "sharp" to use one's own
name to promote one's activities. And HvK's anger at his brother's activities
suggests to me a very small-souled, insecure person, not the Higher Being of
critical myth.
Rather than get bogged down in another Nazi/no-Nazi morass, let me say that
the most important point about HvK is that most of his recordings are
mediocre, and the reality of his music making has very little to do with the
mythmaking of certain critics who seem to need idols in their lives. And I
will reiterate my initial point: the idea that 'research' has somehow
'cleared' HvK of 'charges' that he was a Nazi is, on its face, absurdly
incorrect. To say that HvK was a member of the NSDAP is not a 'charge,' it
is a fact.
--
Simon Roberts
: I recall an interesting article in The New Republic in
: the late '80s (before his death, IIRC) which claimed that
: the manner of his imposition of will upon the
: music he
: conducted was compatible with the Nazi mind-set, even
: if (as seems possible) he never really cared about
: their view of the world.
In what way(s) was this manner different from the way that other
conductors impose their will on the music (for they all do/did)?
Simon
MSten4MHS
that he joined the party twice, in Austria and Germany), >>
Both Osborne's book and Paul Moor's Schwann-Opus article flatly refute the
charge that Karajan joined the Nazi party twice. They cite and quote the Nazi
documentation supporting their claim. Osborne's book even includes the
transcript of Karajan's de-Nazification procedures as an addendum. I assume you
haven't read either of these articles/books - otherwise you wouldn't have
recited this canard as if it were an unrefuted "fact."
<his
manner of music-making seemed to leave him open to the
accusation.>
Sensible people can easily disagree on such an assessment. If the evidence
shows - as I believe it does - that HvK wasn't a Nazi (at least in the
medium-to-worst sense of that pejorative term), will that change your
assessment of his music-making, or will it simply inspire one to an evaluation
like "well, he wasn't a Nazi, but he sure made music like one"?
<Herbie the K was, in fact, about the only
musician I repeatedly heard referred to as "That Nazi",
even though other German musicians (let's start with
Bohm and Gieseking) were reputed to be more committed
members. I recall an interesting article in The New Republic in
the late '80s (before his death, IIRC) which claimed that
the manner of his imposition of will upon the
music he
conducted was compatible with the Nazi mind-set, even
if (as seems possible) he never really cared about
their view of the world.
>
I'll take your word for it that it was an interesting article.
Re: Bohm & Gieseking -
Had their careers attained the same all-encompassing power and visibility as
Karajan, there's no doubt that under such microscopic examination the
longknives would have been drawn against them, too.
My point - and Mr. Moor's, I believe - is that Karajan was made an easy target
for such black-balling on the strength of information provided originally by
Mr. Moor, info he now admits was incomplete at best.
Furtwangler was denied the position at Chicago due to his "Nazi past," so it
wasn't only Karajan who was affected by such accusations.
My belief is that Karajan - like 8-million-plus other Germans - joined the Nazi
party in some form (full details of Karajan's membership is provided in both
cited articles). The question is - which form? And did the punishment fit the
crime in his case?
Mark Stenroos
M-T
<<My point - and Mr. Moor's, I believe - is that Karajan was made an
easy target for such black-balling on the strength of information
provided originally by Mr. Moor, info he now admits was incomplete at
best.>>
Do me a favor...Karajan was the darling of DG (and a cash cow for them
and for himself). You call conducting the most visible and one of the
greatest orchestras in the world for decades and holding the juiciest
recording contracts of any conductor "blackballing"? If this is so, I
bet a lot of conductors would have liked to be "blackballed" as Karajan
was. One could argue that it was conductors like Klemperer and
Horenstein, who in retrospect emerge as among the greatest of the
century, that were blackballed (both of them Jews).
Regards,
mt
steve wolk
> My belief is that Karajan - like 8-million-plus other Germans - joined the Nazi
> party in some form (full details of Karajan's membership is provided in both
> cited articles). The question is - which form? And did the punishment fit the
> crime in his case?
>
> Mark Stenroos
>
There is no doubt that he joined the Nazi party, either once or twice.
The real question is *why* he joined. Assuming that he was neither
intoxicated or out for a lark when he signed up, what was the reason?
If anyone in the US who was a card-carrying Communist party member had
claimed that he was not a Communist, I daresay that he would have been
greeted with howls of laughter prior to being ridden out of town on a
rail. My own reaction to him is the same as Toscanini's reaction to
Richard Strauss (who I believe to be far more innocent than HvK): "As a
musician, I take off my hat to him. As a man, I put on 10 hats."
Steve
Ward Hardman
: (snip)
: > My belief is that Karajan - like 8-million-plus other Germans - joined the Nazi
: > party in some form (full details of Karajan's membership is provided in both
: > cited articles). The question is - which form? And did the punishment fit the
: > crime in his case?
: >
: > Mark Stenroos
: >
: There is no doubt that he joined the Nazi party, either once or twice.
: The real question is *why* he joined.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[snip]
I'm beginning to recall some of those 1950's "High Fidelity" articles
about HvK, though I'm not sure which, if any, of them were written by
Moor. In one of them, I recall a woman being cited as claiming that
Karajan was "one of the sexiest men I've ever met," or something to
that effect. The photos showed him posing with his new Mercedes gull-
wing sports car and attired for skiing and/or boating.
Was Herbie really "sexy"? Was he a good skier/sailor? Was he small?
(Why have some called him the "midget maestro," talent or stature?)
Who was more dictatorial, Herbert the "Nazi" or Arturo the anti-
Fascist? These are what I consider "real questions" about HvK.
--Ward Hardman
paulgo...@my-dejanews.com
Paul Penna
> If anyone in the US who was a card-carrying Communist party member had
> claimed that he was not a Communist, I daresay that he would have been
> greeted with howls of laughter prior to being ridden out of town on a
> rail.
FWIW, this did not happen to Lucille Ball, who was a card-carrying CPUSA
member (long story, but in essence she did it in her youth as sort of sign
of respect for a beloved uncle or other relative and forgot about it until
reminded in the 1950s, I believe) but not a believing communist.
Paul Penna
Sara Freeman
Hardman) writes:
>Was Herbie really "sexy"?
Yes
Was he a good skier/sailor?
He was supposed to be a topnotch skater. I don't know about his sailing
but at least he didn't drown himself or others.
Was he small?
He was about 5'5" at his tallest and kept shrinking as he got older as
many of us do. He would have been sexier if he were taller.
>(Why have some called him the "midget maestro," talent or stature?)
>Who was more dictatorial, Herbert the "Nazi" or Arturo the anti-
>Fascist?
Who knows? The important questions are above.
These are what I consider "real questions" about HvK.
>
>--Ward Hardman
>
--
Matthew B. Tepper
>
>intoxicated or out for a lark when he signed up, what was the reason?
>claimed that he was not a Communist, I daresay that he would have been
>greeted with howls of laughter prior to being ridden out of town on a
>Richard Strauss (who I believe to be far more innocent than HvK): "As a
>musician, I take off my hat to him. As a man, I put on 10 hats."
Toscanini's remark about Richard Strauss had nothing to do with the
composer's conduct during the Nazi era. IIRC, Strauss promised the
Italian premiere of _Salome_ to Toscanini, and then undercut this
promise not only by authorizing another production in another Italian
city but by conducting it himself. Toscanini seems to have taken it as
a personal insult.
Atoddk
>Rather than get bogged down in another Nazi/no-Nazi morass,
...you'll instead get bogged down in another "Do Karajan's records suck?"
morass.
>let me say that
>the most important point about HvK is that most of his recordings are
>mediocre,
Is that really a "point," or just a perception rooted in your own aesthetic
biases (and that of the group of listeners who share it)? Don't get me wrong;
I'm not calling for a mealy-mouthed "in my opinion" before or after every
expression of personal taste here. That would be unnecessary and tiresome and
would kill all the fun anyway. But I still have to point out that what you've
written is neither a fact nor something that's been established to me as a
majority opinion. I would say that *some* of his recordings are mediocre (a
handful not even that good), and he was prolific enough that his "some" may
come out to "many." But I could never endorse "most." He did some wonderful
things in the studio, as well as live, at all points of his career.
>and the reality of his music making has very little to do with the
>mythmaking of certain critics who seem to need idols in their lives.
Please. What of critics who breathlessly bestow all manner of rhetorical
flowers and candy on the likes of Furtwangler or Celibidache or Horenstein or
Leisenring or whomever else may be this year's neglected saint of the baton? Or
even a longstanding icon such as Toscanini? Are those critics also
"myth-making," or simply handing down The Word of the Enlightened?
Todd K
rkha...@adnc.com
bank...@sprintmail.com wrote:
> Here is a heartwarming HVK anecdote, as related by Sviatislov Richter on
> the video about him.
>
> When recording the Beethoven Triple with HVK, Richter mentioned that he
> was actually
> German (German father, Russian mother). Von Karajan's response was that
> if Richter was German, then he was Chinese.
>
> I guess that to be a proper German in HVK's eyes you had to be
> ethnically pure.
I love Richter's comment about the famous LP cover photo (and now CD photo)
for the Triple Concerto with HvK, Oistrakh and Rostropovich: "We all looked
like a bunch of idiots!"
Ramon Khalona
Carlsbad, California
Michael A. Abelson
1940's German equivalent of Barbra Streisand, his lifelong pattern of
behavior (musical, political, whatever) becomes perfectly clear. Think
about it.
--
Mike Abelson
Simon Roberts
: If you would all stand back a couple of steps, and envision Karajan as a
: 1940's German equivalent of Barbra Streisand, his lifelong pattern of
: behavior (musical, political, whatever) becomes perfectly clear. Think
: about it.
I'm still trying to get used to his early nickname, "Fluffie;" it'll be a
while before I'll be able think of him as "Barbara" (which I believe is
the German equivalent, now and then, of our "Barbara").
Simon
Sonny Jim
Rather than get bogged down in another Nazi/no-Nazi morass, let me say that
the most important point about HvK is that most of his recordings are
Bollocks. Although Karajan's reputation is not completely rubbished
nowadays, he deserves to be remembered as a far greater musician than he is.
I firmly believe that he was just as imaginative a musician as Furtwaengler
or Klemperer, but this is usually rejected, I cannot help thinking, on the
basis of his image, i.e. because his personality was megalomaniac as opposed
to the wishy-washy indecisive Furtwaengler, this means he did not have the
right 'artistic temperament' as Furtwaengler was supposed to have. However,
I don't find that this is how his music sounds. The number of times I have
heard that Karajan's music was superficial - and it just isn't.
And I will reiterate my initial point: the idea that 'research' has somehow
'cleared' HvK of 'charges' that he was a Nazi is, on its face, absurdly
incorrect. To say that HvK was a member of the NSDAP is not a 'charge,' it
is a fact.
Oh yes? Prove it.
paulgo...@my-dejanews.com
"Sonny Jim" <jon...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Rather than get bogged down in another Nazi/no-Nazi morass, let me say that
> the most important point about HvK is that most of his recordings are
> mediocre, .................................................
>
> Bollocks. Although Karajan's reputation is not completely rubbished
> nowadays, he deserves to be remembered as a far greater musician than he is.
Why, pray tell, does Karajan or anyone deserve to be remembered as a greater
musician than he actually was? Is this some religious obligation you feel?
Or are you a troll?
> And I will reiterate my initial point: the idea that 'research' has somehow
> 'cleared' HvK of 'charges' that he was a Nazi is, on its face, absurdly
> incorrect. To say that HvK was a member of the NSDAP is not a 'charge,' it
> is a fact.
>
> Oh yes? Prove it.
Just curious. Have you read Osborne's biography? If not, please do so
before shooting off your mouth. If you have read it, what proof do you think
is still needed?
Paul Goldstein
paulgo...@my-dejanews.com
ato...@aol.com (Atoddk) wrote:
> Paul Goldstein wrote:
>
> >Rather than get bogged down in another Nazi/no-Nazi morass,
>
> morass.
>
> >the most important point about HvK is that most of his recordings are
> >mediocre,
>
> biases (and that of the group of listeners who share it)?
It's a point I wanted to make. It is not a fact, as you go on to refute
unnecessarily.
>Don't get me wrong;
> I'm not calling for a mealy-mouthed "in my opinion" before or after every
> expression of personal taste here. That would be unnecessary and tiresome and
> would kill all the fun anyway. But I still have to point out that what you've
> written is neither a fact nor something that's been established to me as a
> majority opinion. I would say that *some* of his recordings are mediocre (a
> handful not even that good), and he was prolific enough that his "some" may
> come out to "many." But I could never endorse "most." He did some wonderful
> things in the studio, as well as live, at all points of his career.
>
> >and the reality of his music making has very little to do with the
> >mythmaking of certain critics who seem to need idols in their lives.
>
> Please. What of critics who breathlessly bestow all manner of rhetorical
> flowers and candy on the likes of Furtwangler or Celibidache or Horenstein or
> Leisenring or whomever else may be this year's neglected saint of the baton?
Or
> even a longstanding icon such as Toscanini? Are those critics also
> "myth-making," or simply handing down The Word of the Enlightened?
This is a style of argumentation I find very puzzling. My comments about HvK
and his idolators implied nothing whatsoever about any of those other
conductors and their idolators.
I do think - given the power Penguiphone exerts in the classical recording
marketplace today - that debunking the HvK cult is far more important than
debunking any of the various other supposed cults to which you refer.
And BTW, who is Leisenring?
--
Sonny Jim
paulgo...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<7g7ecs$dmv$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <7g6v6f$plv$1...@gxsn.com>,
> "Sonny Jim" <jon...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Rather than get bogged down in another Nazi/no-Nazi morass, let me say
that
>> the most important point about HvK is that most of his recordings are
>>
>> Bollocks. Although Karajan's reputation is not completely rubbished
>> nowadays, he deserves to be remembered as a far greater musician than he
is.
>
>Why, pray tell, does Karajan or anyone deserve to be remembered as a
greater
>musician than he actually was? Is this some religious obligation you feel?
>Or are you a troll?
No, sorry, that's not what I meant. The phrase should read "..... he
deserves to be remembered as a far greater musician than he is now
considered to have been."
>> And I will reiterate my initial point: the idea that 'research' has
somehow
>> 'cleared' HvK of 'charges' that he was a Nazi is, on its face, absurdly
>> incorrect. To say that HvK was a member of the NSDAP is not a 'charge,'
it
>> is a fact.
>>
>> Oh yes? Prove it.
>
>Just curious. Have you read Osborne's biography? If not, please do so
>before shooting off your mouth. If you have read it, what proof do you
think
>is still needed?
I have read it, but I only recall reading about Karajan having joined the
Nazi party and the clearing up about dates etc. I don't remember anything,
though, about him being a member of the NSDAP. I thought that was just an
unconfirmed rumour.
Sara Freeman
<mabe...@telerama.lm.com> writes:
>
>If you would all stand back a couple of steps, and envision Karajan as
a
>1940's German equivalent of Barbra Streisand, his lifelong pattern of
>behavior (musical, political, whatever) becomes perfectly clear. Think
>about it.
Ugh! How can you insult Karajan like that? Being called a version of
Barbra Streisand is far worse than being called a Nazi.
>--
>Mike Abelson
>
>http://members.tripod.com/~Classical_Mike/home.htm
--
Thomas Deas
>Nazi party and the clearing up about dates etc. I don't remember anything,
>though, about him being a member of the NSDAP. I thought that was just an
>unconfirmed rumour.
The Nazi Party and NSDAP are two names for the same thing; the National
Socialist German Workers' Party. I believe 'Nazi' is taken from the first
syllable of the first word, and the second of the second (' sozial...' (my
German grammar has gone, rather, which is why I haven't tried to give the
full German name)).
Clovis Lark
Actually, I thought this came from the first 2 syllables: Nati,
pronounced "natzi", hence...
>
>
Thomas Deas
>
>Actually, I thought this came from the first 2 syllables: Nati,
>pronounced "natzi", hence...
Could be, but why not call it 'Nati'?
Mike Painter
<tho...@deas.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
Because "national" in German is pronounced "nah-tsi-oh-nahl."
Mike
To respond via e-mail, remove * from address.
Atoddk
>
[snip]
>I do think - given the power Penguiphone exerts in the classical recording
>marketplace today - that debunking the HvK cult is far more important than
>debunking any of the various other supposed cults to which you refer.
I don't believe it reaches "cult" proportions, particularly now. To my taste,
Penguin puts too many recordings by Gardiner and C. Davis at the top of the
respective lists, and if I thumbed through it, I could add a number of other
conductors, soloists, and singers whom I personally find dull or otherwise
unappealing, but who almost always get a full three stars. I've never thought
there was anything more sinister at work than divergent tastes in performers
between myself and the three authors. And which among the present Gramophone
reviewers can be counted on to praise Karajan every time out? Even Osborne, in
his book and elsewhere, is critical of more than a few of the recordings,
including some lauded by his fellow cultists at Penguin (the "not good" Mahler
5 springs to mind). If Jim Svejda's guide grows over time to become as
influential as Penguin, will it become necessary to debunk the Szell cult?
> And BTW, who is Leisenring?
Local dentist. Just seeing if anyone was paying attention.
Todd K
Colin Rosenthal
>In <3726A623...@telerama.lm.com> "Michael A. Abelson"
><mabe...@telerama.lm.com> writes:
>>
>>If you would all stand back a couple of steps, and envision Karajan as
>a
>>1940's German equivalent of Barbra Streisand, his lifelong pattern of
>>behavior (musical, political, whatever) becomes perfectly clear. Think
>>about it.
>
>Ugh! How can you insult Karajan like that? Being called a version of
>Barbra Streisand is far worse than being called a Nazi.
"Shit, Cartman, it's mecha-Karajan"
--
Colin Rosenthal
Sonny Jim
>
>The Nazi Party and NSDAP are two names for the same thing; the National
>Socialist German Workers' Party. I believe 'Nazi' is taken from the first
>syllable of the first word, and the second of the second (' sozial...' (my
>German grammar has gone, rather, which is why I haven't tried to give the
>full German name)).
Sorry - I thought the NSDAP was the Nazi secret police. In that case, no, I
don't deny that Karajan was a member, but frankly I don't care because he
made good music.
Jeff Rossman
career.
Moira de Swardt
Matthew B. Tepper wrote in message <7g5ibb$b...@journal.concentric.net>...
>In article <3725FDC9...@erols.com>, sjw...@erols.com pondered
>what I'm pondering as follows...
>>
>>There is no doubt that he joined the Nazi party, either once or twice.
>>The real question is *why* he joined. Assuming that he was neither
>>intoxicated or out for a lark when he signed up, what was the reason?
>>If anyone in the US who was a card-carrying Communist party member had
>>claimed that he was not a Communist, I daresay that he would have been
>>greeted with howls of laughter prior to being ridden out of town on a
>>rail. My own reaction to him is the same as Toscanini's reaction to
>>Richard Strauss (who I believe to be far more innocent than HvK): "As a
>>musician, I take off my hat to him. As a man, I put on 10 hats."
>
I saw a play "Taking Sides" about two years ago on Furtwangler, and he also
allegedly joined the Nazi party twice. It would seem that musicians
couldn't work in Nazi Germany if they weren't members of the party.
Relatively indifferent musicians replaced the Jews and other undesirables in
the ranks of the orchestra, and all were members of the Nazi party. It has
no relevance today except to remind us that we are each responsible for
ensuring that we remain absolutely unbigoted on grounds of race, religion,
ethnic origin, sexual orientation etc. What happened under the Nazi's must
never be allowed to happen again. When ethnic cleansing takes place in
India or Africa we must take the matter up with whoever can intervene. I
know, I'm from South Africa. :-)
Moira de Swardt
Sudhir D. Kadkade
<7g4lio$tvo$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <7g4ajh$ud7$2...@newsreader1.core.theplanet.net>,
> "Alex Leach" <alexand...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> I am mystified by this: having read the Osborne biography twice I can
find
>> no factual basis for finding Karajan in any way despicable. To what are
you
>> referring?
>>
>> Alex
>
>I was referring primarily to his persecution of his brother for using the
>Karajan name to promote his accordion ensemble ;-)
Didn't Koussetvitsky ask his nephew(?) who was a conductor for the
Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra to stop using the Koussevitsky
name. As I recall, the nephew changed his name to Sevitsky.
I wouldn't demonize Karajan for doing what is commonly done
when a family name acquires a commercial or artistic value.
Karajan's membership of the NSDAP and other WWII antics
(eg. performing for the Nazi top-brass in occupied Paris), were
more serious, I should think.
Regards,
Sudhir
Thomas Deas
>
>
>
>Because "national" in German is pronounced "nah-tsi-oh-nahl."
If 'nati (onal)' is pronounced 'nazi (onal),' why not spell nazi 'nati'?
David Grayshan
Sudhir D. Kadkade wrote:
> (Snip)
> Didn't Koussetvitsky ask his nephew(?) who was a conductor for the
> Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra to stop using the Koussevitsky
> name. As I recall, the nephew changed his name to Sevitsky.
>
(Snip)
Matthew B. Tepper
tho...@deas.freeserve.co.uk pondered what I'm pondering as follows...
In other words, "bother those cursèd foreigners who pronounce their
words any differently from the Queen's English!"? I DO hope there was
a smiley that simply got misplaced.
Thomas Deas
>career.
That's neither true nor relevant. Hitler was a rather poor artist, or rather
painter, definitely sub-Churchill. Joining the Nazi party is not comparable
to leading it.
Clovis Lark
The very one whose scores and parts are part of my collection here at the
job.
Thomas Deas
Matthew B. Tepper wrote in message <7gabj2$n...@chronicle.concentric.net>...
>In article <7ga86a$nkl$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>,
>tho...@deas.freeserve.co.uk pondered what I'm pondering as follows...
>>
>>>> Could be, but why not call it 'Nati'?
>>>
>>>Because "national" in German is pronounced "nah-tsi-oh-nahl."
>>
>>If 'nati (onal)' is pronounced 'nazi (onal),' why not spell nazi
>>'nati'?
>
>In other words, "bother those cursèd foreigners who pronounce their
>words any differently from the Queen's English!"? I DO hope there was
>a smiley that simply got misplaced.
There was a comment about dropping the subject which got half typed out and
then erased. It's nothing to do with English, not that I'm feeling too proud
of my nationality these days. Germans maintain their pronunciation is
consistent with their spelling. If 'national' were pronounced 'natsional,'
then 'nati' would likewise be pronounced 'natsi'; no substitution of 'z'
would be required. I'm not really interested in this, by the way. Shall we
let it drop?
John Grabowski
> Sonny Jim wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >The Nazi Party and NSDAP are two names for the same thing; the National
> > >Socialist German Workers' Party. I believe 'Nazi' is taken from the first
> > >syllable of the first word, and the second of the second (' sozial...' (my
> > >German grammar has gone, rather, which is why I haven't tried to give the
> > >full German name)).
> >
> > Sorry - I thought the NSDAP was the Nazi secret police. In that case, no, I
> > don't deny that Karajan was a member, but frankly I don't care because he
> > made good music.
> Sure, and Hitler was a fairly decent artist before he took on his next
> career.
I'm not really sure what the point of that "analogy" was. Karajan didn't put
people in ovens.
J
--
The great man is he who in the midst of the crowd keeps with perfect sweetness
the independence of solitude.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Sudhir D. Kadkade
I heard the story on one of the ISO broadcasts. Don't remember
what concert was rebroadcast, but it was enough to understand
why Koussevitzky wanted Sevitzky to adopt a new name.
Regards,
Sudhir
David Grayshan wrote in message <3728AE76...@tschan-partner.com>...
>What, Fabian Sevitzky? Koussy's nephew? Phew!
>
Dan Koren
John Grabowski <jg...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Jeff Rossman wrote:
>
>> Sonny Jim wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > >The Nazi Party and NSDAP are two names for the same thing; the National
>> > >Socialist German Workers' Party. I believe 'Nazi' is taken from the first
>> > >syllable of the first word, and the second of the second (' sozial...' (my
>> > >German grammar has gone, rather, which is why I haven't tried to give the
>> > >full German name)).
>> >
>> > Sorry - I thought the NSDAP was the Nazi secret police. In that case, no, I
>> > don't deny that Karajan was a member, but frankly I don't care because he
>> > made good music.
>> Sure, and Hitler was a fairly decent artist before he took on his next
>> career.
>
>I'm not really sure what the point of that "analogy" was. Karajan didn't put
>people in ovens.
No, but he wore the same uniform as those who put people in ovens,
and the evidence suggests he did it voluntarily rather than only to
save his life.
dk
Gyorgy Sajo
> Germans maintain their pronunciation is
> consistent with their spelling. If 'national' were pronounced 'natsional,'
> then 'nati' would likewise be pronounced 'natsi'; no substitution of 'z'
> would be required. I'm not really interested in this, by the way. Shall we
> let it drop?
Let me drop in before we drop it... German pronunciation is _almost_
consistent with the spelling. However, there are some regular exceptions:
while the letter "t" is normally pronounced as "t", the syllables "tio"
in words of Latin origin are always pronounced as "tsio" (and not as "tio").
So "national" is pronounced as "natsional".
On the other hand, the sound "ts" is written as "z" in regular German
spelling, so when it comes to "Nazi", which is albeit a derivation from
the Latin->German "national", but now has became a common German word, they
use the regular German spelling with "z", that indicates the correct
pronunciation: "natsi".
Hope it was not much confusing...
Gyorgy
Philip Peters
"Matthew B. Tepper" wrote:
> If Karajan was in fact an innocent little baa-lamb who wept at night
> over the terrible, terrible things he did during the day, then -- to
> quote Dorothy Parker and with apologies to certain of our newsgroup
> regulars -- I am Marie of Roumania.
YES! I *felt* I knew you from way back... ;))
Philip
Philip Peters
August Helmbright wrote:
> In article <19990427112943...@ng-ch1.aol.com>,
> vod...@aol.comjunkfree (Sol L. Siegel) wrote:
> >Herbie the K was, in fact, about the only
> > musician I repeatedly heard referred to as "That Nazi",
> > even though other German musicians (let's start with
> > Bohm and Gieseking) were reputed to be more committed
> > members.
>
> I thought I once read that the rumors of Gieseking's Nazi involvement were
> later determined to have been cooked up by some of his musical rivals in an
> attempt to damage his reputation after the war. Am I dreaming this?
Yes, you are.
Philip
Bob Lombard
"Ethic cleansing" has been going on in the Baltic peninsula for several
years now, by several ethnic groups. All their own version of "dealing with
the Jewish problem". Seems like there are a sufficiency of living bigots;
why get all worked up about a dead one? I realize that we classical music
enthusiasts tend to live in the past, but this is more like living in a
closet.
Bob L
Russell W. Miller
>I saw a play "Taking Sides" about two years ago on Furtwangler, and he also
>allegedly joined the Nazi party twice. It would seem that musicians
>couldn't work in Nazi Germany if they weren't members of the party.
I never saw that play, but I did read Prieberg's book, Trial of Strength,
about WF's wartime activities; he was never a party member.
Someone
>Comments?
while (horse.dead)
{
beat (horse);
}
P.S. Only a true geek would appreciate this joke.
P.P.S. Only a true masochist would enjoy reading through this entire
thread!
Someone
<phi...@p-peters.demon.nl> wrote:
>August Helmbright wrote:
>
>> In article <19990427112943...@ng-ch1.aol.com>,
>> vod...@aol.comjunkfree (Sol L. Siegel) wrote:
>> >Herbie the K was, in fact, about the only
>> > musician I repeatedly heard referred to as "That Nazi",
>> > even though other German musicians (let's start with
>> > Bohm and Gieseking) were reputed to be more committed
>> > members.
>>
>> I thought I once read that the rumors of Gieseking's Nazi involvement were
>> later determined to have been cooked up by some of his musical rivals in an
>> attempt to damage his reputation after the war. Am I dreaming this?
>
>Yes, you are.
>
>Philip
Actually, Allan Evans posted a message here about 2 years ago (I
think) on the issue of Gieseking's decision to remain in Germany
during the Nazi period. A. Evans came to the conclusion that Gieseking
was rather apolitical and decided to remain in Germany primarily out
of concern for his aging inlaws and parents, who were living there at
the time. Unlike Karajan, Gieseking was not an actual member of the
party. AFAIK, Allan Evans has researched the topic more than anyone
else here and has conducted extensive interviews with family members,
friends, pupils, and associates of Gieseking. I have little reason to
doubt A. Evans. Furthermore, Evans cited a case where Gieseking saved
the lives of two Jewish musicians -- interpret this however you wish.
Whether Gieseking's musical rivals (I assume A.H. is referring to a
group that would include Artur Rubinstein and Sol Hurok) "cooked up"
rumours about Gieseking's being a Nazi to help their own careers is
clearly debatable. It is quite possible that they viewed his decision
as a well-known public figure to remain in Germany and reluctance to
speak out against the Nazis as tacit approval. The questionable
reliabilty (to put it lightly) of Rubinstein's memoirs makes this
issue much more difficult to sort out I'm afraid.
Lastly, am I the only one here who believes that this kind of
discussion/speculation is a wee bit inappropriate for a *recordings*
newsgroup? Isn't there another more general classical music newsgroup
in which to discuss these issues?
P.S. Karajan was a Nazi. Duh. Why? I have no idea.
John Harkness
Sonny Jim wrote:
> paulgo...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
> <7g7ecs$dmv$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >In article <7g6v6f$plv$1...@gxsn.com>,
> > "Sonny Jim" <jon...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> Rather than get bogged down in another Nazi/no-Nazi morass, let me say
> that
> >> the most important point about HvK is that most of his recordings are
> >> mediocre, .................................................
> >>
> >> Bollocks. Although Karajan's reputation is not completely rubbished
> >> nowadays, he deserves to be remembered as a far greater musician than he
> is.
> >
> >Why, pray tell, does Karajan or anyone deserve to be remembered as a
> greater
> >musician than he actually was? Is this some religious obligation you feel?
> >Or are you a troll?
>
> No, sorry, that's not what I meant. The phrase should read "..... he
> deserves to be remembered as a far greater musician than he is now
> considered to have been."
>
> >> And I will reiterate my initial point: the idea that 'research' has
> somehow
> >> 'cleared' HvK of 'charges' that he was a Nazi is, on its face, absurdly
> >> incorrect. To say that HvK was a member of the NSDAP is not a 'charge,'
> it
> >> is a fact.
> >>
> >> Oh yes? Prove it.
> >
> >Just curious. Have you read Osborne's biography? If not, please do so
> >before shooting off your mouth. If you have read it, what proof do you
> think
> >is still needed?
>
> I have read it, but I only recall reading about Karajan having joined the
> Nazi party and the clearing up about dates etc. I don't remember anything,
> though, about him being a member of the NSDAP. I thought that was just an
> unconfirmed rumour.
What the hell do you think joining the Nazi party means -- it means he was a
member of the National Socialist Democratic whatsis.
John
Tripletz
And he certainly advanced through the ranks, taking vacated posts when other
conductors had to flee.
There is a new video that shows him enthusiastically conducting in the newly
occupied Paris.
Osborne is a Karajan groupie of long standing. I haven't read his book but
based on his grammophone writings I doubt he has the capacity to treat the
subject with any objectivity. His pronouncements would have more weight if
they came fromore neutral scholar. Until such a person covers the same ground,
the subject will remain controversial.
steve wolk
To anyone who has still not read it, I recommend "The Twisted Muse:
Musicians and Their Music in the 3rd Reich" by Michael Kater. The
subject is thoroughly treated there.
Steve
HenryFogel
>From: steve wolk <sjw...@erols.com>
>Date: 5/D/YYYY 10:00 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <372BBFE4...@erols.com>
>
>Tripletz wrote:
>>
>> Von K joined the party twice--first the Austrian branch, then the big boys.
>> And he certainly advanced through the ranks, taking vacated posts when
>other
>> conductors had to flee.
>> There is a new video that shows him enthusiastically conducting in the
>newly
>> occupied Paris.
>> Osborne is a Karajan groupie of long standing. I haven't read his book
>but
>> based on his grammophone writings I doubt he has the capacity to treat the
>> subject with any objectivity. His pronouncements would have more weight if
>> they came fromore neutral scholar. Until such a person covers the same
>ground,
>> the subject will remain controversial.
>
I agree that Osborne is a Karajan groupie, but you really should read the book
-- or at least the chapters devoted to this. He has done extensive research,
all thoroughly documented, and demonstrates that Karajan did not really join
twice. He does not, for me, clear up the basic issue -- what was Karajan's
attitude about the Nazis? -- but he does offer some convincing evidence that
some of the charges against the conductor were exaggerations of the truth.
Henry Fogel
Ernest Jones
expediency,just as DSCH joined the Communist party!
Ernest Jones
Retired Music & Cruise Crazy Brit.
On Sunny Isles Beach
Life is an Opera
Clovis Lark
HenryFogel <henry...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Subject: Re: "Karajan was no Nazi"
>>From: steve wolk <sjw...@erols.com>
>>Date: 5/D/YYYY 10:00 PM Central Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <372BBFE4...@erols.com>
>>
>>Tripletz wrote:
>>>
>>> Von K joined the party twice--first the Austrian branch, then the big boys.
>>> And he certainly advanced through the ranks, taking vacated posts when
>>other
>>> conductors had to flee.
I, for one would like to ask:
1.Who was the conductor who was forced to flee from Ulm?
2.Who was the conductor who was forced to flee from Aachen?
Matthew B. Tepper
cl...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu pondered what I'm pondering as follows...
>
>I, for one would like to ask:
>
>1.Who was the conductor who was forced to flee from Ulm?
>
>2.Who was the conductor who was forced to flee from Aachen?
Probably various Otto Schmincks who gladly took up the more prestigious
positions held by such conductors as Bruno Walter and Otto Klemperer
when *they* were forced to flee. Not to mention Leo Blech, who left and
wasn't allowed back in; and the non-Jewish Fritz Busch, who left despite
not being on any hit-lists.
Tripletz
DSCH at least thumbed his nose repeatedly at the authorities in his music and
used some of his political capital to help a few others, such as
Vainberg. All HvK ever did was play the good Nazi and help himself.
VanSkybar
>>
>>expediency,just as DSCH joined the Communist party!
>>
>> Ernest Jones
Go away and do not blaspheme, you silly man. DSCH's struggles to compose within
an insane and evil system are open to endless debate, and his agony and
irresolution are right there in the music. HvK was an opportunist AT BEST; at
worst, he was a man who agreed with the National Socialist worldview and who
had no problems displacing Jews and others who'd been exiled or killed as part
of the Nazi agenda.
Peter Van Skyler
Clovis Lark
Tripletz <trip...@aol.com> wrote:
>>HvK IMHO joined the Nazi party for
>>
>>expediency,just as DSCH joined the Communist party!
>>
>> Ernest Jones
>> On Sunny Isles Beach
>> Life is an Opera
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>DSCH at least thumbed his nose repeatedly at the authorities in his music and
>used some of his political capital to help a few others, such as
>Vainberg. All HvK ever did was play the good Nazi and help himself.
Does the name Anita Gutermann ring a bell?
samir ghiocel golescu
> >HvK IMHO joined the Nazi party for
> >
> >expediency,just as DSCH joined the Communist party!
> >
> > Ernest Jones
> > Retired Music & Cruise Crazy Brit.
> > On Sunny Isles Beach
> > Life is an Opera
> >
But DSCH didn't go, unpressured, in a foreign country for joining a
extremist party!!
regards,
SG
Clovis Lark
Matthew B. Tepper <ducky兀deltanet.com> wrote:
>In article <7gib8a$cac$1...@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
>cl...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu pondered what I'm pondering as follows...
>>
>>I, for one would like to ask:
>>
>>1.Who was the conductor who was forced to flee from Ulm?
>>
>>2.Who was the conductor who was forced to flee from Aachen?
>
>Probably various Otto Schmincks who gladly took up the more prestigious
>positions held by such conductors as Bruno Walter and Otto Klemperer
>when *they* were forced to flee. Not to mention Leo Blech, who left and
>wasn't allowed back in; and the non-Jewish Fritz Busch, who left despite
>not being on any hit-lists.
Again, the following is not an apology for signing a party card.
Nonetheless, you should have some facts, eh?
1. Karajan was offered Ulm prior to the part membership because the post
was vacant.
2. Similarly, the post in Aachen was vacant and there was a search in
progress. Here he already had a party card.
3. His appointment to the Staatsoper in Berlin was after a 2 year search
for a replacement to Krauss.
Basically, he signed away his name for career advancement but did not
take anybody's job away. He also kept bad company by Nazi standards,
namely, Anita Gutermann and Otto Schulmann. For somebody to be perceived
as such a gung ho Nazi, the fact that he was already under attack in 1940
by the party apparatus, passed over for the appointment to Dresden and
given few opportunities to perform following 1942 makes little sense.
Half my family faced the Nazi slaughterhouse. The half that survived was
able to differentiate between active Nazi's and "tag alongs". Karajan
was no murderer nor was he a racist who bought into the racist agenda.
What he was was an opportunist who couldn't see the longterm implications
for his shortterm needs. I don't approve of this, but there are so many
millions of such people.
Eric Schissel
>>>HvK IMHO joined the Nazi party for
>>>
>>>expediency,just as DSCH joined the Communist party!
>>>
>>> Ernest Jones
>Go away and do not blaspheme, you silly man. DSCH's struggles to compose within
>an insane and evil system are open to endless debate, and his agony and
>irresolution are right there in the music. HvK was an opportunist AT BEST; at
>worst, he was a man who agreed with the National Socialist worldview and who
>had no problems displacing Jews and others who'd been exiled or killed as part
>of the Nazi agenda.
>
Though please, let's not go to the other extreme and reopen Ian
MacDonald's equally silly hypothesis of Shostakovich as secret dissident
whose music expresses at every bar (except for the really bad pieces, of
course, we are given to understand!) a protest against the state (nothing
else mattering to the composer, of course!)
-Eric Schissel
--
schi...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/schissel ICQ#7279016
standard disclaimer
Raymond Hall
<3732e...@news2.lightlink.com>...
> VanSkybar (vans...@aol.comjunkx) wrote:
> >>>HvK IMHO joined the Nazi party for
> >>>
> >>>expediency,just as DSCH joined the Communist party!
> >>>
> >>> Ernest Jones
>
> >Go away and do not blaspheme, you silly man. DSCH's struggles to compose
within
> >an insane and evil system are open to endless debate, and his agony and
> >irresolution are right there in the music. HvK was an opportunist AT
BEST; at
> >worst, he was a man who agreed with the National Socialist worldview and
who
> >had no problems displacing Jews and others who'd been exiled or killed
as part
> >of the Nazi agenda.
> >
>
> Though please, let's not go to the other extreme and reopen Ian
> MacDonald's equally silly hypothesis of Shostakovich as secret dissident
> whose music expresses at every bar (except for the really bad pieces, of
> course, we are given to understand!) a protest against the state (nothing
> else mattering to the composer, of course!)
Actually, Eric, I find MacDonald's book (The New Shostakovich) quite
fascinating reading. It is excellently written, and laid out in
chronological sequence, with good synopsii (is that a word) of most of his
works. I am particularly fascinated by his mention of DSCH acting as the
"yurodivy" composer, when it may have suited him.
Finally, FWIW, I don't see how comparisons between DSCH and Herbie the K,
can possibly be made. I cannot comment on Herbie (don't know enough facts),
other than to believe he was purely and simply a power hungry musical
opportunist. But then, so was Schindler a business opportunist, and he was
eventually decorated by the Israelis. DSCH, on the other hand, was in an
entirely different situation and predicament. He was under constant musical
scrutiny by Stalin's appointed music censors for the State. One wrong step,
and off to the Gulags.
I fail to see how DSCH and Herbie the K can be remotely compared, as to
personality, circumstance or role in the music profession.
| Ray Hall <hallr...@bigpond.com>
Mike Leghorn
between Herb and DSCH. Not only is it not an obvious one to make, but I it's
a ridiculous one. I must admit that I have emotions about the subject, and
that I am very fond of DSHC's music, and am turned off by Herb's
personality. I don't know too much about him, but it seems to me that in
many ways, Herb fit the Nazi stereo type. Once, the music critic John von
Rhein (spelling?) remarked, "Wherever Karajan went, he made sure he had his
own photographers with him -- the only one's he would permit to take photos
of him. In fact, he carried everthing with him but a portable gas chamber."
Although Herb had made some outstanding contributions to music, I feel that
his image, and his art were tainted. Shostakovich, on the other hand,
personality flaws not withstanding (we all have them) was a true artist,
whose art is much more convincingly human than Herb's.
Raymond Hall wrote in message <01be98f1$cc3331c0$5d6f868b@hp-customer>...
gol...@students.uiuc.edu
orchestra, at the cost of having Eugen Jochum's brother (Georg Ludwig), a
"competing conductor", called into the army (which in those days could be the
equivalent of a death sentence), by his (Karajan's) politic patrons, is
DESPICABLE enough. It was Furtwangler who stopped the "schweinerei". And this
fact is quoted by Mr. Osborne himself, who seems overall to be pretty biased
in Karajan's favor (at least to me). I always had the weakness of considering
the harm done to * concrete*, living persons, equal or superior in importance
to "ideological (propaganda etc.) sins".
regards,
SG
In article <7g4ajh$ud7$2...@newsreader1.core.theplanet.net>,
"Alex Leach" <alexand...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> I am mystified by this: having read the Osborne biography twice I can find
> no factual basis for finding Karajan in any way despicable. To what are you
> referring?
>
> Alex
>
> --
> alex....@bradford.gov.uk
>
> <paulgo...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
> news:7g2o3m$8fd$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
> > In article <19990426160539...@ng125.aol.com>,
> [snip]
> > Osborne's biography also provides abundant factual basis for finding HvK
> > rather despicable for all sorts of additional reasons.
Thomas Deas
Toscanini, Gregor Piatigorsky and Arthur Rubinstain as signatories to the
petition which prevented Furtwangler from conducting in Chicago after the
war. Reading on in the same book (WF's 'Notebooks') I find in a footnote,
with reference to Piatigorsky,
'Though his name appeared in the protest, it may well have been without his
consent - this was certainly the case with some of the names on the list.'
Clearly I spoke too soon. I apologise.
Thomas