"Roberto Poli in Concert"
LaVirtuosa
It contains: Brahms-Intermezzo in E, Op. 116, no. 4; Rhapsody in g minor,
Op. 79 no. 2; Intermezzo in b minor, Op 117, no. 2; Capriccio in c# minor, Op.
76 no. 5. Mozart-Andante from Sonata K533; Berg-Sonata Op. 1;
Chopin-Barcarolld; Ravel-LaValse.
He plays Brahms and Mozart with big, soft, velvety "bear paws", like Edwin
Fischer. You should hear Roberto's pianissimos; also, the big, cavernous tones
he produces in the bass while never being harsh at any time.
His luscious Berg sonata simply *to die for*. After hearing this, I would love
to hear what he would do with Scriabin.
He gives the Chopin Barcarolle all the gentleness and warmth it deserves but
hardly ever receives.
We've already discussed his LaValse. It, like the high quality of the above
renditions, most assuredly "raises the bar'.
***********************************Val
Dan Koren
>
> His luscious Berg sonata simply *to die for
>
Works by Berg are to die by, not for.
dk
Dan Koren
> and warmth it deserves but hardly ever receives.
>
I wasn't planning to get into this discussion,
but the Barcarolle (assuming it is the same
performance I downloaded from mp3.com) has
oodles of warmth and gentleness at the expense
of everything else. It is a very Italianate
performance -- which in itself isn't bad --
but doesn't sound for a moment like music
that leads to Debussy and Scriabin.
From all the performances on Mr. Poli's mp3
site, I found the Chopin the least satisfying
-- if not downright disappointing. As I said
earlier, I think Mr. Poli could benefit from
coaching with some people trained in Moscow :)
dk
Roberto Poli
>
> I wasn't planning to get into this discussion,
> but the Barcarolle (assuming it is the same
> performance I downloaded from mp3.com) has
> oodles of warmth and gentleness at the expense
> of everything else. It is a very Italianate
> performance -- which in itself isn't bad --
> but doesn't sound for a moment like music
> that leads to Debussy and Scriabin.
>
people are reviewing, but... Dan, your remarks (and I'm not arguing
about your opinions: you are entitled to hate my Barcarolle to death)
are absolutely off track. I never claimed to be a Chopinist but, on
the other hand, I have to inform you that the Barcarolle is a Venetian
(therefore Italian) boat song, and that Chopin was closer to Bellini
and Donizetti (at least in his Barcarolle the adjective "Italianate"
would not be in the wrong place) than to Glinka. That Chopin's late
music can be considered as leading to Impressionism, that's what we
are all told, and one can believe that. That it HAS to sound like it's
leading to Debussy or Scriabin just because these two composers were
strongly influenced by Chopin's pianism, that sounds a little
suspicious and superficial.
> I think Mr. Poli could benefit from
> coaching with some people trained in Moscow
>
Being trained in Moskow doesn't necessarily mean knowing how to teach
Chopin, or how to teach, for that matter. Somehow, I trust my current
teacher (American) more than anybody else, as his Barcarolle is the
most spectacular I've heard (live). Speaking of Moskow trained
pianists/teachers, listen to Boris Petrushansky's Barcarolle: it's the
most "Italianate" performance by a pianist from Moskow, trained in
Moskow... and as far from Debussy and Scriabin as you can get... :)
Best,
RP
Sergey Schepkin
> dank...@yahoo.com (Dan Koren) wrote in message news:<c1c5ead9.01110...@posting.google.com>...
> >
> > I wasn't planning to get into this discussion,
> > but the Barcarolle (assuming it is the same
> > performance I downloaded from mp3.com) has
> > oodles of warmth and gentleness at the expense
> > of everything else. It is a very Italianate
> > performance -- which in itself isn't bad --
> > but doesn't sound for a moment like music
> > that leads to Debussy and Scriabin.
> >
> I wasn't planning to get into this discussion, as it's my performance
> people are reviewing, but... Dan, your remarks (and I'm not arguing
> about your opinions: you are entitled to hate my Barcarolle to death)
> are absolutely off track. I never claimed to be a Chopinist but, on
> the other hand, I have to inform you that the Barcarolle is a Venetian
> (therefore Italian) boat song, and that Chopin was closer to Bellini
> and Donizetti (at least in his Barcarolle the adjective "Italianate"
> would not be in the wrong place) than to Glinka.
However, it must be said, Glinka spent much time in Italy, and was as
fond of Bellini and Donizetti as was Chopin. . . The Italian-style
coloraturas in his operas and the melodic lines in his songs
(including, btw, one "Night in Venice") testify to that. So I think it
probably would be more correct to say that Chopin was closer to
Bellini and Donizetti than to Seroff or Dargomyzhsky . . . :-) Other
than that, my dear Roberto, I am in complete agreement with you. (And
your Barcarolle really rocks -- how about the pun!)
Sergey
LaVirtuosa
>the Barcarolle (assuming it is the same
>performance I downloaded from mp3.com) has
>oodles of warmth and gentleness at the expense
>of everything else
The Barcarolle is a romance; you're after rough s--- ---. :)
>It is a very Italianate
>performance
Somehow, that makes sense.
>doesn't sound for a moment like music
>that leads to Debussy and Scriabin.
Who puts stuff like that into your head, anyway? :)
> As I said earlier, I think Mr. Poli could >benefit from coaching with some
people >trained in Moscow :)
Which people, exactly?
*********************Val
Dan Koren
> Dan Koren wrote,
>
> >the Barcarolle (assuming it is the same
> >performance I downloaded from mp3.com) has
> >oodles of warmth and gentleness at the expense
> >of everything else
>
> The Barcarolle is a romance; you're after rough s--- ---. :)
I never denied that a Barcarolle is a
romance -- *in title*. However I think
Chopin's (and Faure's) Barcarolles go
way beyond the Italian song model.
They are really dramatic, complex
works, not mere romances. I don't
want the drama underplayed at the
expense of the romance -- any more
than I want the romance underplayed
at the expense of the drama. That's
precisely what makes this piece so
difficult to balance and get *right*.
> >It is a very Italianate
> >performance
>
> Somehow, that makes sense.
I wasn't complaining -- only describing.
> >doesn't sound for a moment like music
> >that leads to Debussy and Scriabin.
>
> Who puts stuff like that into your
> head, anyway? :)
You don't want to know :) Whatever the
source, I do like to hear the forebodings
of Debussy, Scriabin and Rachmaninov in
Chopin's music brought out convincingly.
Not many pianists oblige. Samson Francois,
Sofronitsky, Pletnev and Zhukov are among
the few who do. And no, I don't care (in
fact I don't even give a shit) if this is
how Chopin is *supposed* to sound, or if
this is what he *intended*.
> > As I said earlier, I think Mr. Poli
> > could benefit from coaching with
> > some people trained in Moscow :)
>
> Which people, exactly?
>
Dmitri Bashkirov.
dk
Dan Koren
> >
> > I wasn't planning to get into this discussion,
> > but the Barcarolle (assuming it is the same
> > performance I downloaded from mp3.com) has
> > oodles of warmth and gentleness at the expense
> > of everything else. It is a very Italianate
> > performance -- which in itself isn't bad --
> > but doesn't sound for a moment like music
> > that leads to Debussy and Scriabin.
> >
> I wasn't planning to get into this discussion,
> as it's my performance people are reviewing,
You're very welcome. This is very refreshing,
and I hope constructive. I wish more artists
were as open as you are and willing to engage
in public discussions about their performances.
> but... Dan, your remarks (and I'm not arguing
> about your opinions:
And so is everybody else :)
> you are entitled to hate my Barcarolle to death)
I never said I hated it. Only that I
found it disappointing -- to my taste.
> are absolutely off track.
Which/whose track?
> I never claimed to be a Chopinist but,
I never claimed that either :)
> on the other hand, I have to inform
> you that the Barcarolle is a Venetian
> (therefore Italian) boat song,
C'mon, everybody knows that. Except my
cat Furwangler, that is. He thinks the
Barcarolle is an invitation to dinner :)
> and that Chopin was closer to Bellini
> and Donizetti (at least in his Barcarolle
> the adjective "Italianate" would not be
> in the wrong place) than to Glinka.
I am not complaining about your Barcarolle
sounding Italianate. That's fine. What I
didn't like was that I didn't get much of
anything else out of it. You are certainly
entitled to your interpretation of the work,
and it is a legitimate view of the music. I
just didn't find it exciting enough, searing
enough to pin me to my chair -- or make me
jump out of it.
> That Chopin's late music can be considered
> as leading to Impressionism, that's what we
> are all told, and one can believe that.
No one has told me that -- it's just my ears.
> That it HAS to sound like it's leading to
> Debussy or Scriabin just because these two
> composers were strongly influenced by Chopin's
> pianism, that sounds a little suspicious and
> superficial.
I think you're taking my words too literally. I
like to hear brought out in Chopin's music the
wilder, rougher, more unusual (until then) lines,
rhytms and harmonies that hint of Debussy, Scriabin,
Rachmaninov, Szymanowski, even Prokofiev and Albeniz.
In the Barcarolle, I like to hear some of the searing
intensity of L'Ile Joyeuse. It's my view of the music,
of course, and you don't have to buy into it.
> > I think Mr. Poli could benefit from
> > coaching with some people trained in Moscow
>
> Being trained in Moskow doesn't necessarily mean
> knowing how to teach Chopin, or how to teach, for
> that matter.
Then how does it happen that the Russian piano school
(however one defines it) is still producing more high
quality, better trained pianists, year after year than
any other piano school in the world? Is it just a
coincidence?
> Somehow, I trust my current teacher (American) more
> than anybody else, as his Barcarolle is the most
> spectacular I've heard (live).
That's perfectly fine. One example does not refute
the statistical evidence. By the way, is there a
recording available of this person's Barcarolle?
And just for calibration, let me say that to my
ears the most compelling Barcarolle I have ever
heard is Sofronitsky's.
> Speaking of Moskow trained pianists/teachers,
> listen to Boris Petrushansky's Barcarolle: it's
> the most "Italianate" performance by a pianist
> from Moskow, trained in Moskow... and as far
> from Debussy and Scriabin as you can get... :)
>
I haven't heard Petrushansky's Barcarolle (or
maybe I don't remember) however all the other
stuff I heard by him I didn't like. Perhaps
because he does not sound to me as "Russian"
as I like Russian pianists to sound :)
I will say once more that the cornerstone of
my listening is the notion that the greatest
art is to make art disappear. This is why I
don't like many famous pianists whose great
art is all too obviously visible, if not
deliberately flaunted. I suppose this is
a philosophy many professional pianists
might dislike -- and disagree with -- but
this is me.
dk
Dan Koren
> Dan Koren wrote,
>
> >the Barcarolle (assuming it is the same
> >performance I downloaded from mp3.com) has
> >oodles of warmth and gentleness at the expense
> >of everything else
>
> The Barcarolle is a romance; you're after rough s--- ---. :)
>
I don't read Morse -- please write in clear text.
dk
LaVirtuosa
>> The Barcarolle is a romance; you're after rough s--- ---. :)
>>
>
>I don't read Morse -- please write in clear text.
sex.
LaVirtuosa
[chopin Barcarolle]> I don't
>want the drama underplayed at the
>expense of the romance -- any more
>than I want the romance underplayed
>at the expense of the drama.
Of course, it's a red-blooded piece. But I believe that it makes sense to
preserve an overriding feeling of *playful* love, even during the occasional
surges of passion beginning at 39, all the way to measure 93, yet even the
93-102 piu mosso section seems more playful than dramatic.
In measures 103-111, it's big, but bittersweet, and post-climax.
The first "kiss" at measure 32 :leading upe to that, Chopin wrote "sempre
crescendo" but isn't it a matter of "degrees"? If someone blows their climax
in that area, what's left for later?
Measures 47, 54, 58 and 60 contain note groups which suggest ripples of water.
Different gondoliers make differend kinds of "ripples". :)
> That's
>precisely what makes this piece so
>difficult to balance and get *right*.
That's very true and it's open to many interpretations. Some like more "gusto"
early on, but if that's all you hear in this moderately long piece, that gets
to be a bit monotonous.
>> Who puts stuff like that into your
>> head, anyway? :)
>
>You don't want to know :)
I can guess who it was, but that idea is in another context.
>I do like to hear the forebodings
>of Debussy, Scriabin and Rachmaninov in
>Chopin's music brought out convincingly.
Other places in Chopin's oevre, yes but not here. ( finale of Chopin's opus
58/Rach 3 finale, yes-it's blatent).
>And no, I don't care (in
>fact I don't even give a shit) if this is
>how Chopin is *supposed* to sound, or if
>this is what he *intended*.
We can only guess what was "between the notes" in Chopin's own concept.
> Mr. Poli
>> > could benefit from coaching with
>> > some people trained in Moscow :)
>>
>> Which people, exactly?
>>
>
>Dmitri Bashkirov.
Elaborate.
Roberto Poli
> > I wasn't planning to get into this discussion,
> > as it's my performance people are reviewing,
>
> You're very welcome. This is very refreshing,
> and I hope constructive. I wish more artists
> were as open as you are and willing to engage
> in public discussions about their performances.
Dan, it took you a while to reply... I thought you were giving up.
People, expect anything from DK...
> > are absolutely off track.
>
> Which/whose track?
Common sense. : )
>
> C'mon, everybody knows that. Except my
> cat Furwangler, that is. He thinks the
> Barcarolle is an invitation to dinner :)
>
Your cat's name is Furtwangler??? Mine is Toscanini!!! (we call him
Nini)
> In the Barcarolle, I like to hear some of the searing
> intensity of L'Ile Joyeuse.
Good Lord!
> Then how does it happen that the Russian piano school
> (however one defines it) is still producing more high
> quality, better trained pianists, year after year than
> any other piano school in the world?
Not anymore. I recently heard some very very bad Russian pianists. If
they represent the best piano school in the world, then I gladly
dissociate from it (being trained for the most part in the Russian
tradition myself).
> That's perfectly fine. One example does not refute
> the statistical evidence. By the way, is there a
> recording available of this person's Barcarolle?
There is, but the label for which he recorded it doesn't exist
anymore. It was some 25-30 years ago, and it's not as appealing as his
live rendition, IMO (though extremely beautiful). I have to say that
his playing changed considerably over the last 15 years.
> And just for calibration, let me say that to my
> ears the most compelling Barcarolle I have ever
> heard is Sofronitsky's.
I agree. It's one of the most successful interpretations.
>
> I haven't heard Petrushansky's Barcarolle (or
> maybe I don't remember) however all the other
> stuff I heard by him I didn't like. Perhaps
> because he does not sound to me as "Russian"
> as I like Russian pianists to sound :)
His Chopin CD for Agora' is really beautiful. BTW, how do Russian
pianists sound? And you never answered Val about Bashkirov... : )
Thank you, Dan...
Best,
RP
Dan Koren
I'm not after sex -- rough or not -- at all.
I want a vision of the music that looks
beyond the niceties -- however beautiful
they may be.
dk
Dan Koren
>
> > Mr. Poli
> >> > could benefit from coaching with
> >> > some people trained in Moscow :)
> >>
> >> Which people, exactly?
> >
> >Dmitri Bashkirov.
>
> Elaborate.
Magic touch and supreme intelligence.
One of the very few great pianists who
is also a great teacher.
dk
samir golescu
Dan Koren testified:
> I'm not after sex -- rough or not -- at all.
I am appalled at you letting down so bluntly the hopes and dreams
of many gracious an rmcr lurker.....
Dan Koren
> > > C'mon, everybody knows that. Except my
> > cat Furwangler, that is. He thinks the
> > Barcarolle is an invitation to dinner :)
> >
> Your cat's name is Furtwangler??? Mine is
> Toscanini!!! (we call him Nini)
>
No, it's FURwangler.
dk