Thielemann/VPO Beethoven Cycle
Bob Harper
Well. Right now I'm listening to a download of their performance of the
Pastoral a couple of days ago in Paris. If the entire cycle is at this
level, it will be very special indeed. This performance is slowish, but
so full of incident and detail that the speed seems exactly right. The
audience reaction seems to agree. Now on to the 7th from the same concert.
Bob Harper
M forever
This interests me only very mildly. I have heard some of those live
recordings, including the 6th, and yes, they are overall very nice and
Thielemann's kind of retro "romantic revival" style is indeed
something very rare these days and something which very few conductors
can do. Indeed, it took him a long time to get there himself, as can
be heard from his 90s Schumann and Beethoven recordings which document
his earlier, only partially successful attempts at that style.
So while it may be the right time now for him to document his view on
Beethoven, I am not sure I have to have that. I have plenty of such
Beethoven already, and tons of recordings by the WP, including
stylistically similar ones like the Böhm and the earlier Abbado cycle
- which I find far more interesting than his later, "completely
rethought" ones from Berlin.
It might have been slightly more interesting for me if he had chosen
to record this cycle with the Münchner Philharmoniker. They have an
amazingly rich and deep sound which would have been nice to have on
disc with Thielemann in this repertoire. Not that the WP don't, but
the sound is different and already extremely well documented.
I am slightly more looking forward to the cycle with Chailly and the
Gewandhausorchester. The GOL also has an unique sound culture which is
fortunately still intact (as I was able to witness a few weeks ago
when I was in Leipzig and heard them play Shostakovich 8 conducted by
Inbal), and the live recording of the 9th with these forces I heard a
while ago was musically very good.
Plus I was really impressed by their recent recording of the
Brandenburgische Konzerte with Chailly which is a perfect blend of
"traditional" playing culture with organically integrated,
unexaggerated insights from period performance - something which is
very rare indeed.
ivanmaxim
You mention the Munich Philharmonic -are you familiar with the Kempe
Munich complete set???? Wagner fan
M forever
Unfortunately not. I was not aware that Munich, North Dakota had its
own philharmonic orchestra. Pretty astonishing for a city with a
population of 268.
I do, however have a complete Beethoven set with the Münchner
Philharmoniker, also conducted by Kempe, which is really good. The
6th, for instance, is particularly good. Kempe is one of my all-time
favorite conductors anyway.
pianomaven
What a prig!
TD
ivanmaxim
>
> - Show quoted text -
I know it was initially released in the US on Seraphim LPs and I think
i saw a CD transfer somewhere awhile back. Wagner fan
Bob Harper
(snip)
>>> You mention the Munich Philharmonic -are you familiar with the Kempe
>>> Munich complete set???? Wagner fan
>>
>> Unfortunately not. I was not aware that Munich, North Dakota had its
>> own philharmonic orchestra. Pretty astonishing for a city with a
>> population of 268.
So do you reserve the same snide tone when speaking to Italians who
refer to 'Monaco' when referring to the capital of Bavaria? Something
like, "Fabulous Casino and a great GP race, but the orchestra isn't much."
You are, I am sorry to say, the single most boorish individual I have
ever encountered.
Bob Harper
Gerard
fun-alert!
>
> Unfortunately not. I was not aware that Munich, North Dakota had its
> own philharmonic orchestra. Pretty astonishing for a city with a
> population of 268.
>
> I do, however have a complete Beethoven set with the Münchner
> Philharmoniker, also conducted by Kempe, which is really good. The
> 6th, for instance, is particularly good. Kempe is one of my all-time
> favorite conductors anyway.
I have that set to on LP.
It's an average good set. "Straight from the shoulder", not "deep".
ivanmaxim
Actually I thought he was just joking that, as a German, I should have
used the German - I didn't take it too seriously. Wagner fan
Lena
Umm, where is this found? (If this can be divulged.) Not sure about
what I think of Thielemann in this repertoire, but this is curiosity-
inducing.
Lena
Sol L. Siegel
news:752d8c1a-035e-407d...@fj16g2000vbb.googlegroups.com:
> This interests me only very mildly. I have heard some of those live
> recordings, including the 6th, and yes, they are overall very nice and
> Thielemann's kind of retro "romantic revival" style is indeed
> something very rare these days and something which very few conductors
> can do. Indeed, it took him a long time to get there himself, as can
> be heard from his 90s Schumann and Beethoven recordings which document
> his earlier, only partially successful attempts at that style.
I recall that I tried to listen to his Beethoven 5 & 7 from that period,
and couldn't - the taffy-pulling seemed both maddening and entirely
artificial. His Schumann 2 and 4-horn Konzertstuck (I keep it mainly for
the latter) were better. He's appeared here once, in the mid-'90s, with a
Brahms 4 that I thought quite good, and taped a Wagner collection for DG,
not based on concert performances, that I also like. Alas, various
constraints on time, budget and space have kept me from following his
career in the same way as people who do appear here, like Rattle or The
Dude.
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
Dontait...@aol.com
Hello Bob,
As a recent target of Dr. forever's snide ignorant arrogance on
rmcr, I want to tell you how I agree with your message (forwarded, I
hope). I do so privately because I dislike confrontation there,
although I indulge in it occasionally.
In one way I have felt sorry for Michael from time to time. He is
clearly very intelligent and, in his way, thoughtful; and he has been
attacked for absolutely no good reason just because he is German. He
has much to offer.
But his arrogance is insufferable. Plus what I regard as his
needlessly confrontational, accusatory tone. I won't deny that his
recent attack upon me about the microphone in WFMT's Control Room B in
1972 -- "tait [sic] doesn't know what he is talking about" -- left me
in a huge rage. It took me a couple of days to simmer down. He wasn't
there, for Pete's sake. His arrogance left me in disbelief. But no
matter.
You're a voice of reason and reasonableness on rmcr. Sanity, too.
Thanks.
Don Tait
Gerard
> On Nov 28, 1:40 am, Bob Harper <bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > On 11/27/10 9:38 PM, ivanmaxim wrote:
> > (snip)>>> You mention the Munich Philharmonic -are you familiar
> > with the Kempe
> > > > > Munich complete set???? Wagner fan
> >
> > > > Unfortunately not. I was not aware that Munich, North Dakota
> > > > had its own philharmonic orchestra. Pretty astonishing for a
> > > > city with a population of 268.
> >
> > (snip)
> >
> > So do you reserve the same snide tone when speaking to Italians who
> > refer to 'Monaco' when referring to the capital of Bavaria?
> > Something
> > like, "Fabulous Casino and a great GP race, but the orchestra isn't
> > much."
> >
> > You are, I am sorry to say, the single most boorish individual I
> > have
> > ever encountered.
> >
> > Bob Harper
>
> Hello Bob,
>
> As a recent target of Dr. forever's snide ignorant arrogance on
> rmcr, I want to tell you how I agree with your message (forwarded, I
> hope). I do so privately because I dislike confrontation there,
> although I indulge in it occasionally.
Hm, maybe you should do so more carefully and use e-mail, because here it is, in
the newsgroup.
>
> In one way I have felt sorry for Michael from time to time. He is
> clearly very intelligent and, in his way, thoughtful; and he has been
> attacked for absolutely no good reason just because he is German. He
> has much to offer.
I think however that he has been attacked always because of his arrogance and
hostile attitude and tone.
>
> But his arrogance is insufferable. Plus what I regard as his
> needlessly confrontational, accusatory tone.
Exactly.
> I won't deny that his
> recent attack upon me about the microphone in WFMT's Control Room B in
> 1972 -- "tait [sic] doesn't know what he is talking about" -- left me
> in a huge rage. It took me a couple of days to simmer down. He wasn't
> there, for Pete's sake. His arrogance left me in disbelief.
>
For some others it is /belief/ - belief that this is how he is, forever.
pianomaven
Nothing unusual.
Why should you know when your German "buddy" has just held you up to
ridicule? Not that it was deserved.
But one thing is sure: you are made for one another.
TD
JR
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think it may be Hoople in southern North Dakota. Or is it northern
South Dakota?
Bob Lombard
South Dakota. Hoople is banned in North Dakota.
bl
Gregor Frowein
>Mention was made here recently that this was 'in the can'.
My English is too poor to explane what I am doing here. The text
speaks for him-, her- or itself. - something like that
Gregor
----------------------------
Wer hat's erfunden?
Christian Thielemann über Beethoven - und die Frage, warum er jetzt
alle neun Symphonien am Stück dirigiert
In den Konzertsälen werden die Symphonien von Ludwig van Beethoven
seltener, stattdessen gibt es mehr Schostakowitsch, mehr Rachmaninow
und vor allem viel Mahler. Da wirkt die neue DVD-Edition "Discovering
Beethoven" mit Christian Thielemann, den Wiener Philharmonikern und
Joachim Kaiser wie eine Kampfansage. Thielemann probt und dirigiert,
Kaiser erklärt: Wie eine Symphonie gebaut ist, wer das Metronom
erfunden hat, wie Beethoven einmal in Teplitz Goethe hat abblitzen
lassen und so weiter. Manchmal singt Kaiser auch etwas vor, Thielemann
singt mit und sie diskutieren. Kaiser: "Jam, baba bada jam" (der
Anfang der Achten). Thielemann: "büp büp!", "büp büp!" (Szene am Bach
aus der Sechsten). Oder: "Da ist so eine überschwängliche
Unbekümmertheit drin, die gar nicht unbekümmert ist" (in der Ersten).
Oder: "Beethoven sagt: ,Weißt du, du hast dir so viele Freiheiten
genommen, mach doch jetzt einfach mal gar nix!'" (über das Finale der
Achten). Oder: "Sehen Sie, so!" Es ist ein herrliches Durcheinander!
Dirigent und Musikkritiker verstehen einander ganz ausgezeichnet, auch
wenn man nur ahnen kann, worüber sie reden. Doch werden zwischendurch
Probenausschnitte eingespielt, dann ist sofort klar: Was wie Wortsalat
wirkt, das schiebt sich ganz dicht an die Musik heran und beleuchtet
sie, im Detail. Kaiser und Thielemann demonstrieren, wie unmöglich es
ist, überhaupt über Musik zu sprechen (vorausgesetzt, man vermeidet
das übliche Fachsimpeln und die übliche Gefühlslyrik). Sobald sie der
Sache der Musik ein bisschen näher kommen, löst sich die Sprache auf.
Christian Thielemann hat in der letzten Woche alle neun
Beethovensymphonien mit den Wiener Philharmonikern in nur vier Tagen
in Paris aufgeführt. Vom 1. bis 5. Dezember wird er das Experiment in
Berlin wiederholen. Dazwischen fand er Zeit für ein Interview.
FRAGE:
Alle dirigieren Mahler im Mahler-Jahr. Sie dirigieren Beethoven.
Warum?
ANTWORT:
Weil Beethoven die Grundlage ist. Für alles.
FRAGE: Warum müssen es alle neun Beethovensymphonien als Kurpackung
sein?
ANTWORT: Für die Wiener Philharmoniker ist das eine riesige
Anstrengung. Für mich übrigens auch. Ich dirigiere zurzeit sechs
Stunden täglich, mindestens. Wir haben in dieser Woche Dienstag,
Mittwoch, Donnerstag und Freitag an jedem Tag drei oder sogar vier
ganze Symphonien durchgespielt in der Probe. Und das Tolle ist: Erst
bei so einem Durchlauf wird klar, dass Beethoven sich nie wiederholt
hat! Er hat immer eine andere Stimmung ausgespielt, immer neue
Charaktere gesetzt. Diese neun Symphonien sind das Fundament für die
gesamte Orchestermusik, die nach Beethoven kam. Das hat übrigens auch
schon Brahms gesagt, auch Mahler wusste das.
FRAGE: Wollen Sie so etwas wie die letztgültige Lesart vorlegen?
ANTWORT:
Nein. Wir arbeiten uns hier gerade tief hinein in alle möglichen
Interpretationsvarianten, die so vielfältig und verschieden sind, dass
ich glaube, es wird eine ultimative Beethoveninterpretation sowieso
niemals geben können. Hier muss man immer wieder neu ran. Bei
Beethoven ist man nie irgendwo angekommen.
FRAGE:
Gilt das nicht für fast jede Musik? Sie wird doch immer erst lebendig,
wenn jemand sie spielt. Vorher und nachher ist sie nur als Idee
vorhanden, in Noten. Deshalb gleicht keine Aufführung der anderen.
Deshalb muss man es auch immer wieder tun . . .
ANTWORT: Ja, alles richtig, alles schön. Aber es ist doch so:
Irgendjemand hat das mal erfunden.
FRAGE: Sie meinen: Beethoven hat's erfunden?
ANTWORT: Ich würde sagen, diese starken Kontraste, die er setzt, sind
absolut neu, auch die Unwiederholbarkeit hat er erfunden. Beethoven
war der Erste, der diese beiden Parameter ganz ausgeschöpft hat.
Daraus ergibt sich als Paradox für die Beethoveninterpretation heute,
dass wir einen Weg suchen müssen, diese Unwiederholbarkeiten zu
wiederholen. Gehe ich klassisch heran, vermeide ich beispielsweise
allzu viele Ritardandi, dann werde ich der Musik nicht gerecht; das
passiert auch, wenn ich Beethoven nur von der Nachfolge her lese und
seine Symphonien verwagnern und versinnlichen will. Denken Sie etwa an
die kontrollierte Raserei am Schluss der Fünften. Auch das ist neu. So
etwas hat vor Beethoven noch keiner versucht.
FRAGE:
FRAGE: Die gesamte klassische Musik basiert auf dem Prinzip der
Wiederholung. Gerade, dass wir wieder erkennen, was wir schon mal
gehört haben, macht doch erst das Vergnügen aus. Deshalb gibt es
Reprisen, auch bei Beethoven . . .
ANTWORT: Ja. Genau. Bloß ist seit Beethoven keine Wiederholung
identisch mit dem Wiederholten. Und wir, die Interpreten, haben die
Freiheit, es jedes Mal wieder anders zu machen.
Heute wird Beethoven fast nur noch im Licht der historischen
Aufführungspraxis gespielt: kleine Besetzung, knackige Phrasierung,
viel Licht, viel Schatten. Was denken Sie darüber?
ANTWORT: Ich gehöre zu einer Dirigentengeneration, die sich von allem
das nimmt, was sie braucht. Die große Tradition der Kollegen, die sich
urtextmäßig bewaffnet haben, die vergessen wir dabei nicht. Aber ich
will in meinem Beethovenzyklus mit den Wiener Philharmonikern zeigen:
Es geht auch mit einem Schuss Romantik, es geht mit Vibrato.
Einseitige Einsichten nützen gar nichts. Beethoven ist doch ein
Kosmos! Klar, ich muss vorsichtig mit so großen Worten sein. Sie
werden viel zu häufig benutzt. Kaum steige ich ein bei der Lufthansa,
schon werde ich überfallen mit "Welcome to our world", ich denke jedes
Mal: "Haben die es nicht eine Nummer kleiner?" Sehen Sie, genau das
geht bei Beethoven gar nicht! Bei dem ist alles immer eher eine Nummer
größer.
FRAGE: Zum Beispiel?
Geht das Stück los mit einem wuchtigen ersten Satz, dann nimmt
Beethoven den zweiten unglaublich zurück. Das ist eine Frage der
Tektonik. Jede Symphonie steht zu der nächstfolgenden in einem
Spannungsverhältnis. Man kann das am besten herausarbeiten, wenn man
alle Neune macht, möglichst rasch hintereinander. Mich erinnert das an
den "Ring" in Bayreuth, wo wir morgens den 2. Akt der "Walküre" und
abends den Schluss von "Götterdämmerung" spielen und alles
durcheinander probieren. So werden erst Zusammenhänge erkennbar.
FRAGE: In Beethovens Erster steckt noch viel Mozart und Haydn drin.
ANTWORT: Sicher. Aber unbedingt mit Beethoventouch! Er zeigt immer
sofort seine Pranke! Denken Sie an die langsame Einleitung im ersten
Satz der Ersten. Neu ist, dass Beethoven mit der Dominante anfängt,
keiner kann wissen, wie es weitergeht.
FRAGE: Andere haben das schon vor ihm ausprobiert. Haydn hat sogar
Quartette geschrieben, die fangen mit einer Schlusskadenz an!
ANTWORT: Wenn der Haydn so was tat, dann nahm er es auch gleich wieder
zurück. Für ihn war das ein Spiel, Haydn ist dezent. Beethoven ist
geradezu indezent! Er nimmt nie etwas zurück! Er wiederholt nichts!,
insistiert, er bohrt nach. Das ist ja gerade der Wahnsinn, dass er uns
in jedem einzelnen Symphoniesatz einen anderen Charakter vorstellt.
Bei anderen großen Komponisten können Sie überall Stellen finden, die
anderen Stellen ein bisschen ähneln. Bei Beethoven wird Ihnen das
nicht gelingen. Ich habe jetzt studienhalber mal nur alle langsamen
Sätze hintereinander gemacht, danach nur alle Scherzi hintereinander.
Sie werden staunen! Die Scherzi werden immer wilder und brutaler, von
einer Symphonie zur nächsten. Aber es gibt verblüffend viele
Symphonien bei Beethoven, die haben überhaupt gar keinen echten
langsamen Satz! Warum? Weil er neun Mal immer wieder ganz andere Wege
gehen wollte. Wagner hat sich das bei Beethoven abgeguckt. Zum
Beispiel im "Lohengrin", 1. Akt, das knallt, "Lohengrin", 2. Akt
beginnt dann aus dem Nichts. Oder "Götterdämmerung", dieser
wahnsinnige Schluss vom 1. Akt und der zweite, der anfängt mit
düsterem Brüten. Das ist ganz genau so wie in Beethovens 5. Symphonie,
wo dieser As-Dur-Satz plötzlich, nach dem großen Knall, leicht und
elegant daherkommt, ich würde fast sagen, beiläufig . . .
FRAGE: Warum machen Sie das Beethovenprojekt mit den Wiener
Philharmonikern?
ANTWORT:
Weil sie mich gefragt haben. Ich habe schon mal alle neun
Beethovensymphonien mit dem Orchester der Accademia Santa Cecilia
aufgeführt, aber nicht so konzentriert. In München bin ich nicht so
weit gekommen.
FRAGE:
Warum werden wir von Beethoven immer noch so erschüttert?
Weil er einfach gut war! Dieser Mensch hat gewaltig gute Musik
komponiert, unwiederholbar, original, zum ersten Mal. Sie hat eine
unbändige Kraft. Das hören Sie, zum Beispiel, an der Wucht der
Bassfundierung. Auch das ist nämlich neu: Diese Verdunklung des Klangs
durch die Celli, Kontrabässe und Bratschen. Das finden Sie bei Haydn
und Mozart noch nicht. Es ist wie eine Massierung von Kraft. Beethoven
hat die Latte hochgelegt. An seiner Musik entlarven sich die Epigonen.
Das war ihm sicher selbst so nicht bewusst. Es war einfach da. Und
darum regt uns das immer noch so auf. Weil dieses Rätsel der
Inspiration nicht zu lösen ist.
Interview Eleonore Büning
Die dreiteilige DVD-Edition "Discovering Beethoven" kommt Anfang
Dezember heraus (C Major / Unitel).
Text: Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung, 28.11.2010, Nr. 47 /
Seite 28
mark
I have to agree that Michael is being priggish here.
Unless M refers to every musical ensemble by their name as it is
rendered in their native language then he's being selective in what
gets his dander up.
jrsnfld
For the next few weeks you can hear this at your leisure, thanks to
Radio France:
--Jeff
Lena
Thank you! Listening right now... (Is my bass turned way up?? Well,
it doesn't matter, I kind of like it.)
I managed to get to other sources of wisdom, too, so I may have to
take a brief break to actually listen to all this!
Lena
Bob Harper
and its orchestra (that of the local University ) has given us a
unique--even revelatory--performance of the first movement of the
Beethoven Fifth, as I'm sure most members of the group are aware :)
Bob Harper
ivanmaxim
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes I still can't forget it!!! Wagner fan
Lena
>
> --Jeff
If you have the time: I'd be very interested in your reactions to
this Thielemann. (Everyone else's, too.)
Lena
JR
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes. A masterpiece. The conductor slips my mind, but I believe Bobby
Corno is one of the horn players.
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:fb99b2c4-9172-458d-814d-8ee0e1c17a88
@o11g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
> On Nov 29, 9:40 pm, Bob Harper <bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> No, no. Hoople is in *Southern* *North* Dakota, and its orchestra (that
>> of the local University ) has given us a unique--even revelatory--
>> performance of the first movement of the Beethoven Fifth, as I'm sure
>> most members of the group are aware :)
>>
>> Bob Harper- Hide quoted text -
>
> Yes. A masterpiece. The conductor slips my mind, but I believe Bobby
> Corno is one of the horn players.
The conductor was called "Heilige Dankgesang." And the solo oboist is
referred to in passing as "Highwood."
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Kip Williams
> JR<eastw...@juno.com> appears to have caused the following letters to be
> typed in news:fb99b2c4-9172-458d-814d-8ee0e1c17a88
> @o11g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Nov 29, 9:40 pm, Bob Harper<bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> No, no. Hoople is in *Southern* *North* Dakota, and its orchestra (that
>>> of the local University ) has given us a unique--even revelatory--
>>> performance of the first movement of the Beethoven Fifth, as I'm sure
>>> most members of the group are aware :)
>>
>> Corno is one of the horn players.
>
> The conductor was called "Heilige Dankgesang." And the solo oboist is
> referred to in passing as "Highwood."
I wouldn't be surprised if his name's not on the roster next season.
Kip W
number_six
Looks like it's tutti all the way, folks.
JR
>
> - Show quoted text -
Isn't the concert billed as the Greater Hoople Philharmonic(?) verses
Heilige Dankgesang and Corno may be sent down to the minors for his
"clam?"
Kip Williams
> On Nov 30, 10:10 am, number_six<cyberi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 30, 7:45 am, Kip Williams<k...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>>> Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>>>> JR<eastwes...@juno.com> appears to have caused the following
>>>> letters to be typed in
>>>> news:fb99b2c4-9172-458d-814d-8ee0e1c17a88
>>>> @o11g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>>>> On Nov 29, 9:40 pm, Bob Harper<bob.har...@comcast.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> No, no. Hoople is in *Southern* *North* Dakota, and its
>>>>>> orchestra (that of the local University ) has given us a
>>>>>> unique--even revelatory-- performance of the first movement
>>>>>> of the Beethoven Fifth, as I'm sure most members of the
>>>>>> group are aware :)
>>
>>>>> Yes. A masterpiece. The conductor slips my mind, but I
>>>>> believe Bobby Corno is one of the horn players.
>>
>>>> The conductor was called "Heilige Dankgesang." And the solo
>>>> oboist is referred to in passing as "Highwood."
>>
>>> I wouldn't be surprised if his name's not on the roster next
>>> season.
>>
>
> verses Heilige Dankgesang and Corno may be sent down to the minors
> for his "clam?"
Actually, it's the New York Mills Philharmonic, playing at Philharmonic
Hall in New York Mills, Minnesota. It was Corno's third flub of the
season, bringing him to a solo average of approximately .247255, which
is pretty darn low for a first-chair man.
Kip W
And no, my memory's not that good. I cheated.
CharlesSmith
OK so I listened all the way through the Pastoral, but I'll need a
night's sleep and then further incentives if I'm to listen to the 7th
as well.
Not being too familiar with Thielemann I looked him up on Wiki. It
says: "He considers himself to be a carrier of the Austro-Germanic
conducting tradition, in the manner of Wilhelm Furtwängler and
Karajan." The word "carrier" is very pertinent. Being a carrier can be
very tiring. I feel the burden of his responsibility in every bar.
Charles
jrsnfld
Other sources of wisdom often sound best because they emanate from
wise ones with digital cable. I hope to hear this cycle in the next
couple weeks. Having just heard a good portion of Haitink's cycle from
last spring, in Chicago, I'm in the mood for more Beethoven and I
remember liking what I heard from Thielemann's cycle in Vienna.
--Jeff
Lena
Yes, very true, and well spoken. (Though I think that ear-shaking
bass I heard was Thielemann's idea... :) )
> I hope to hear this cycle in the next
> couple weeks. Having just heard a good portion of Haitink's cycle from
> last spring, in Chicago, I'm in the mood for more Beethoven and I
> remember liking what I heard from Thielemann's cycle in Vienna.
>
I'll wait for assessments!
I only heard the 6th, without giving it full attention, and I sampled
the 7th with even less attention, but I was surprised -- I found
myself liking at least the first 4 movements of the 6th. (I half-
expected not to, because I know Thielemann wallows, and I've been in
the anti-wallow camps for a while. Yes, he wallowed all right; but
he also seems to have caught me off-guard, because I didn't protest
very loudly.)
Lena
Lena
> On Nov 30, 2:31 pm, Lena <emswo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 29, 11:24 am, jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > For the next few weeks you can hear this at your leisure, thanks to
> > > Radio France:
>
> > >http://sites.radiofrance.fr/francemusique/em/concert-soir/emission.ph...
>
> > > --Jeff
>
> > If you have the time: I'd be very interested in your reactions to
> > this Thielemann. (Everyone else's, too.)
>
> > Lena
>
> OK so I listened all the way through the Pastoral, but I'll need a
> night's sleep and then further incentives if I'm to listen to the 7th
> as well.
(laugh)
(I'm taking a brief break from posting, maybe until next week. If I
owe answers, and find the questions, I'll do my best with it; if not,
later. Any bribes will be put off until one of the more traditional
bribing holidays coming up.)
Lena
Al Eisner
I don't think so. You're probably thinking of hoopla.
--
Al Eisner
M forever
> On 11/27/10 9:38 PM, ivanmaxim wrote:
> (snip)>>> You mention the Munich Philharmonic -are you familiar with the Kempe
> >>> Munich complete set???? Wagner fan
>
> >> own philharmonic orchestra. Pretty astonishing for a city with a
> >> population of 268.
>
>
> So do you reserve the same snide tone when speaking to Italians who
> refer to 'Monaco' when referring to the capital of Bavaria? Something
> like, "Fabulous Casino and a great GP race, but the orchestra isn't much."
Actually the Orchestre Philharmonique de Monte Carlo is really a quite
good orchestra. I am not surprised you don't know that though.
"Monaco" is perfectly fine for Italians referring to München. So is
"Munich" for English speaking people. It's very typical for well known
places to be have localized version of their names in many languages.
However, the names of cultural institutions are *names* and
translating them is outdated and provincial. Notice how I referred to
the orchestra of Monaco above? Yes, that's right. That's the *name* of
that institution. Not "Monte Carlo Philharmonic".
When the CSO appears in Germany, it is billed as "Chicago Symphony
Orchestra", not as "Chikagoer Sinfonie-Orchester". When I was in
Berlin recently, I heard the Filarmonica della Scala. It was billed as
"Filarmonica della Scala", not as "Philharmonie von der Treppe".
Treppe is German for stairs BTW.
Yes, that's right. "Teatro alla Scala" actually means "Theater at the
Stairs". Rather unusual name that. The reason it is called that is
because the theater was built in the former location of a church named
"Santa Maria della Scala". Literally, "Holy Mary of the Staircase", a
somewhat puzzling name. I tried to find out why that is, but without
much success. However, there is a church still in Rome with that same
name. In its case, it was built and named that way to hold a
"miraculous icon" of, you guessed it, "the Virgin Mary" which was said
to have miraculously cured a deformed child when it was placed on the
staircase of a nearby house. My understanding is that people still go
to worship the idol, but that no miraculous healings have actually
taken place anymore in the past centuries.
In any case, a completely bizarre story, don't you think?
M forever
>
>
>
> > On 11/27/10 9:38 PM, ivanmaxim wrote:
> > (snip)>>> You mention the Munich Philharmonic -are you familiar with the Kempe
> > >>> Munich complete set???? Wagner fan
>
> > >> Unfortunately not. I was not aware that Munich, North Dakota had its
> > >> own philharmonic orchestra. Pretty astonishing for a city with a
> > >> population of 268.
>
> > (snip)
>
> > So do you reserve the same snide tone when speaking to Italians who
> > refer to 'Monaco' when referring to the capital of Bavaria? Something
> > like, "Fabulous Casino and a great GP race, but the orchestra isn't much."
>
> > ever encountered.
>
>
> Actually I thought he was just joking that, as a German, I should have
> used the German - I didn't take it too seriously.
I didn't even know you are German. Nor as it meant seriously, as you
correctly sensed. However, isn't it interesting what offendedness it
triggered in our provincial monoglot American and Candian friends
here?
ivanmaxim
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes I was kind of surprised at the supposed offensiveness of the post
- I didn't see any offensiveness only a "wag of the finger" as Stephen
Colbert says - I didn't take it seriously and can't understand why
others did but hey thats their problem, not mine, nicht wahr?????
Wagner fan
Steve de Mena
>
> When the CSO appears in Germany, it is billed as "Chicago Symphony
> Orchestra", not as "Chikagoer Sinfonie-Orchester". When I was in
> Berlin recently, I heard the Filarmonica della Scala. It was billed as
> "Filarmonica della Scala",
It's always been known as "Filarmonica della Scala", everywhere.
Looking at the BPO web site I see (in the german version) upcoming
concerts by the "Orchester des Mariinsky Theaters St. Petersburg",
"Tschechische Kammerphilharmonie Prag" , "Orchester des Musiktheaters
Prag" and the "Ungarische Nationalphilharmonie". Many other are
un-translated, such as "Philharmonia Orchestra" or "Teresa Carreño
Youth Orchestra of Venezuela".
Steve
M forever
> On 12/11/10 7:10 PM, M forever wrote:
>
>
>
> > When the CSO appears in Germany, it is billed as "Chicago Symphony
> > Orchestra", not as "Chikagoer Sinfonie-Orchester". When I was in
> > Berlin recently, I heard the Filarmonica della Scala. It was billed as
> > "Filarmonica della Scala",
>
> It's always been known as "Filarmonica della Scala", everywhere.
Google says otherwise. "La Scala Philharmonic" finds a lot of direct
hits.
> Looking at the BPO web site I see (in the german version) upcoming
> concerts by the "Orchester des Mariinsky Theaters St. Petersburg",
> "Tschechische Kammerphilharmonie Prag" , "Orchester des Musiktheaters
> Prag" and the "Ungarische Nationalphilharmonie". Many other are
> un-translated, such as "Philharmonia Orchestra" or "Teresa Carre o
> Youth Orchestra of Venezuela".
Indeed, but if it happens in Berlin sometimes, too, that doesn't make
it any better. BTW, the BP foundation is responsible for managing the
Philharmonie, but that doesn't mean all of the listed concerts are put
on by them. Often, the hall is rented to concert agencies and
promoters and they can bill their guest artists in whatever way they
like. If you look closer, you fill find that in most cases where such
translations as "Tschechische Kammerphilharmonie" are offered, the
concerts are of a "greatest classical hits" kind which underlines my
point - it's just provincial and in general, should be sneered at. The
only exception which makes sense is in cases where the original name
is in a different script - like in the case of the Mariinsky which I
saw in Berlin recently, too.
It's good to see that in the US, at least prime venues such as
Carnegie Hall now bill international orchestras under their actual
name.
Gerard
>
> Indeed, but if it happens in Berlin sometimes, too, that doesn't make
> it any better. BTW, the BP foundation is responsible for managing the
> Philharmonie, but that doesn't mean all of the listed concerts are put
> on by them. Often, the hall is rented to concert agencies and
> promoters and they can bill their guest artists in whatever way they
> like. If you look closer, you fill find that in most cases where such
> translations as "Tschechische Kammerphilharmonie" are offered, the
> concerts are of a "greatest classical hits" kind which underlines my
> point - it's just provincial and in general, should be sneered at.
Exactly your atitude:
* it's just provincial and in general, should be sneered at *
It is all below your superior level, and should be sneered at.
Which is your peferred way of wasting your time: sneering.
pianomaven
This kind of anal retentiveness is often noticed among autistic
children.
TD
pianomaven
So, little Dickey is a Nazi too.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Given his, well, shall we be kind and say his "mixed" origins, this
must make live REALLY tough.
TD
Bob Harper
contributions.
Bob Harper
M forever
> On 12/12/10 4:52 AM, pianomaven wrote:
>
> > On Dec 11, 10:10 pm, M forever<ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Nov 28, 2:40 am, Bob Harper<bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >>> On 11/27/10 9:38 PM, ivanmaxim wrote:
> >>> (snip)>>> You mention the Munich Philharmonic -are you familiar with the Kempe
> >>>>>> Munich complete set???? Wagner fan
>
> >>>>> Unfortunately not. I was not aware that Munich, North Dakota had its
> >>>>> own philharmonic orchestra. Pretty astonishing for a city with a
> >>>>> population of 268.
>
> >>> (snip)
>
> >>> So do you reserve the same snide tone when speaking to Italians who
> >>> refer to 'Monaco' when referring to the capital of Bavaria? Something
> >>> like, "Fabulous Casino and a great GP race, but the orchestra isn't much."
>
> >> Actually the Orchestre Philharmonique de Monte Carlo is really a quite
> >> good orchestra. I am not surprised you don't know that though.
>
> >> "Munich" for English speaking people. It's very typical for well known
> >> places to be have localized version of their names in many languages.
>
> >> However, the names of cultural institutions are *names* and
> >> translating them is outdated and provincial. Notice how I referred to
> >> the orchestra of Monaco above? Yes, that's right. That's the *name* of
> >> that institution. Not "Monte Carlo Philharmonic".
>
> >> When the CSO appears in Germany, it is billed as "Chicago Symphony
> >> Orchestra", not as "Chikagoer Sinfonie-Orchester". When I was in
> >> Berlin recently, I heard the Filarmonica della Scala. It was billed as
> >> "Filarmonica della Scala", not as "Philharmonie von der Treppe".
> >> Treppe is German for stairs BTW.
>
> > This kind of anal retentiveness is often noticed among autistic
> > children.
>
> > TD
>
> A trenchant observation, and a clue to much of what's going on in M's
> contributions.
Knowing and respecting other cultures has nothing to do with "anal
retentiveness".
That's not what the expression means *at all*.
Almost everything here somehow leads to anal or fecal references and
fantasies from Deacon though. And that *is* a clue to what is going on
in his mind.
But didn't you find the bit about the "stairs" and the "miraculous
healings by the icon on the stairs" interesting, informative, and
entertaining, too? And how extremely bizarre it is, isn't it? And I
did not make that up either! Just shows what a primitive idol
worshiping cult it really is you cling to.
Gerard
You missed *all* points.
Mustbe some blindness.
Not suprising, of course.
Bob Harper
(snip)
>
> Knowing and respecting other cultures has nothing to do with "anal
> retentiveness".
> That's not what the expression means *at all*.
>
> Almost everything here somehow leads to anal or fecal references and
> fantasies from Deacon though. And that *is* a clue to what is going on
> in his mind.
>
> But didn't you find the bit about the "stairs" and the "miraculous
> healings by the icon on the stairs" interesting, informative, and
> entertaining, too? And how extremely bizarre it is, isn't it? And I
> did not make that up either! Just shows what a primitive idol
> worshiping cult it really is you cling to.
It was not the comment about anal retentiveness to which I was
referring. The sort of behavior you display does resemble that of my
experience with students diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome. They can be
very high functioning (which you undoubtedly are) while being socially
clueless (well, if the shoe fits...).
Bob Harper
M forever
"Diagnosing" people who disagree with you or who you simply don't like
with "mental problems" ("you need help") is a very childish, silly,
passive-aggressive technique only people who are themselves socially
incompetent resort to. People like you. You do that all the time. It
doesn't point to "mental problems" but it does point to severe
immaturity. Such people usually also need crutches, e.g. in the form
of organized religion, to make it through life. People like you.
"If the shoe fits."
Social competence also includes the ability to deal with disagreement
in a fact-based discussion without acting the offended victim. You and
your friend Don have repeatedly shown yourselves completely unable to
do this.
This is even more true when you insert yourselves into an exchange you
weren't even part of to begin with, in this case between me and
"Wagner Fan". How he and I interact is none of your business. As it
turns out, he wasn't offended my little friendly sting at all. But you
guys had to insert yourselves and act offended.
That is also a sign for seriously underdeveloped social intelligence.
But back to the "Holy Mary of the Stairs" thing. I thought that would
interest you, the expert on everything Catholic. It is pretty bizarre,
isn't it? One would think that that kind of pagan superstition would
be frowned upon by your church, but no, they even encourage it. Along
with the many other pagan and polytheist practices they have
encouraged over the centuries. Very interesting!
Bob Harper
I guess that shoe's a good fit.
Bob Harper
M forever
Or "QED" or whatever else you type in whenever you have been sent back
into your corner again. This fallback to even more childish rhetoric
just confirms what I wrote above. You can not actually make an
argument. You just rely on silly rhetoric of the "you need help" and
"the shoe fits" kind. You are not a mentally mature person. Which is
also why you cling to pagan superstitions and idol worshiping.
And that's not a "shoe" that I would like to fit on you. That's a
detailed analysis of your behavior.
Now go back into your corner.
Oh, BTW, before you go sulk - in the past couple of days, I have
written a number of posts, some of them fairly extensive, on various
actual musical subjects. How come you don't reply to any of them?
That's more a rhetorical question, of course. The answer is pretty
obvious.
Now you can go.
Gerard
> On Dec 13, 12:21 am, Bob Harper <bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > On 12/12/10 2:01 PM, M forever wrote:
> > (snip)
> >
> >
> >
> > > Knowing and respecting other cultures has nothing to do with "anal
> > > retentiveness".
> > > That's not what the expression means *at all*.
> >
> > > Almost everything here somehow leads to anal or fecal references
> > > and fantasies from Deacon though. And that *is* a clue to what is
> > > going on in his mind.
> >
> > > But didn't you find the bit about the "stairs" and the "miraculous
> > > healings by the icon on the stairs" interesting, informative, and
> > > entertaining, too? And how extremely bizarre it is, isn't it? And
> > > I did not make that up either! Just shows what a primitive idol
> > > worshiping cult it really is you cling to.
> >
> > It was not the comment about anal retentiveness to which I was
> > referring. The sort of behavior you display does resemble that of my
> > experience with students diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome. They
> > can be very high functioning (which you undoubtedly are) while
> > being socially clueless (well, if the shoe fits...).
>
> "Diagnosing" people who disagree with you or who you simply don't like
> with "mental problems" ("you need help") is a very childish, silly,
> passive-aggressive technique only people who are themselves socially
> incompetent resort to.
People like you, or wagner rat.
>
> People like you. You do that all the time. It
> doesn't point to "mental problems" but it does point to severe
> immaturity. Such people usually also need crutches, e.g. in the form
> of organized religion, to make it through life. People like you.
> "If the shoe fits."
>
> Social competence also includes the ability to deal with disagreement
> in a fact-based discussion without acting the offended victim. You and
> your friend Don have repeatedly shown yourselves completely unable to
> do this.
You have shown without end being unable to behave in a social manner.
>
> This is even more true when you insert yourselves into an exchange you
> weren't even part of to begin with, in this case between me and
> "Wagner Fan". How he and I interact is none of your business.
All of your behaviour in this ng is business here.
>
> As it
> turns out, he wasn't offended my little friendly sting at all. But you
> guys had to insert yourselves and act offended.
> That is also a sign for seriously underdeveloped social intelligence.
>
>
> But back to the "Holy Mary of the Stairs" thing. I thought that would
> interest you, the expert on everything Catholic. It is pretty bizarre,
> isn't it? One would think that that kind of pagan superstition would
> be frowned upon by your church, but no, they even encourage it. Along
> with the many other pagan and polytheist practices they have
> encouraged over the centuries. Very interesting!
Obsessive repeating the same things: typically forever.
Gerard
Obsessive repeating the same things: typically forever.
>
> And that's not a "shoe" that I would like to fit on you. That's a
> detailed analysis of your behavior.
> Now go back into your corner.
Obsessive repeating the same things: typically forever.
>
> Oh, BTW, before you go sulk - in the past couple of days, I have
> written a number of posts, some of them fairly extensive, on various
> actual musical subjects.
Only for trying to "justify"your ugly presence.
> How come you don't reply to any of them?
Why should everyone reply to all your posts?
It's practically impossible, since you're writing here 24 hours a day, because
you like so much wasting your time by sneering and by showing how "superior" you
are.
M forever
> M forever wrote:
> > Oh, BTW, before you go sulk - in the past couple of days, I have
> > written a number of posts, some of them fairly extensive, on various
> > actual musical subjects.
>
> Only for trying to "justify"your ugly presence.
Yes, little idiot boy, that is the only reason one would actually
write posts about music in a music discussion group..
> > How come you don't reply to any of them?
>
> Why should everyone reply to all your posts?
> It's practically impossible, since you're writing here 24 hours a day, because
> you like so much wasting your time by sneering and by showing how "superior" you
> are.
And yet you accomplish that gargantuan task every day, little idiot
boy. Of course, you can't reply to *every* single one of my posts, as
you have nothing to reply to my posts about music either, but you are
still doing a great job! I know you are doing the best you can, little
idiot boy.
None of my posts have anything to do with an assumed "superiority",
BTW, but every single one of yours is testimony of a debilitating
inferiority complex. However, that has nothing to do with me. I don't
know what happened to you, but life has apparently been very unfair to
you. It is in your own best interest to realize that you can't cure
that by compulsively replying to posters who have no respect for you.
No one here does. Just like in real life. But you have to start coping
with real life to fix that.
You should be very grateful to me that I am condescending to give you
this well meant advice, little idiot boy. I know you won't, but I am
giving it anyway. I am just a very generous person.
ivanmaxim
It is strange that most of his postings I see from him in postings by
more mature members are complaints or sneers or, once again, comments
about how superior you think you are. He apprently keeps replying to
me all the time though thankfully I rarely see them so why does he
keep it up???? Perhaps he should consult a physician. Wagner fan
Gerard
> On Dec 13, 2:59 am, "Gerard" <g_nospam_hendrik...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > M forever wrote:
> > > Oh, BTW, before you go sulk - in the past couple of days, I have
> > > written a number of posts, some of them fairly extensive, on
> > > various actual musical subjects.
> >
> > Only for trying to "justify"your ugly presence.
>
> Yes, little idiot boy, that is the only reason one would actually
> write posts about music in a music discussion group..
Not for you.
You are here to write "little idiot boy" and to sneer at everyone.
>
> > > How come you don't reply to any of them?
> >
> > Why should everyone reply to all your posts?
> > It's practically impossible, since you're writing here 24 hours a
> > day, because you like so much wasting your time by sneering and by
> > showing how "superior" you are.
>
> And yet you accomplish that gargantuan task every day, little idiot
> boy. Of course, you can't reply to *every* single one of my posts, as
> you have nothing to reply to my posts about music either, but you are
> still doing a great job! I know you are doing the best you can, little
> idiot boy.
> None of my posts have anything to do with an assumed "superiority",
It is not "assumed", forever.
It drips and splashes from every sentence you write.
>
> BTW, but every single one of yours is testimony of a debilitating
> inferiority complex. However, that has nothing to do with me. I don't
> know what happened to you, but life has apparently been very unfair to
> you. It is in your own best interest to realize that you can't cure
> that by compulsively replying to posters who have no respect for you.
> No one here does. Just like in real life. But you have to start coping
> with real life to fix that.
> You should be very grateful to me that I am condescending to give you
> this well meant advice, little idiot boy. I know you won't, but I am
> giving it anyway. I am just a very generous person.
It's more like an OCD patient.
Anyhow, your "psychological insights" are plain ridiculous. Like those of your
wagner rat.
David O.
wrote:
>But back to the "Holy Mary of the Stairs" thing. I thought that would
>interest you, the expert on everything Catholic. It is pretty bizarre,
>isn't it? One would think that that kind of pagan superstition would
>be frowned upon by your church, but no, they even encourage it. Along
>with the many other pagan and polytheist practices they have
>encouraged over the centuries. Very interesting!
Kind of reminds me of Pauline Kael's epithet for Maggie Smith--Our
Lady of the Wrists.
Bob Harper
> On Dec 13, 2:07 am, Bob Harper<bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> I guess that shoe's a good fit.
>
> Or "QED" or whatever else you type in whenever you have been sent back
> into your corner again. This fallback to even more childish rhetoric
> just confirms what I wrote above. You can not actually make an
> argument. You just rely on silly rhetoric of the "you need help" and
> "the shoe fits" kind. You are not a mentally mature person. Which is
> also why you cling to pagan superstitions and idol worshiping.
> And that's not a "shoe" that I would like to fit on you. That's a
> detailed analysis of your behavior.
> Now go back into your corner.
>
> Oh, BTW, before you go sulk - in the past couple of days, I have
> written a number of posts, some of them fairly extensive, on various
> actual musical subjects. How come you don't reply to any of them?
I did, in fact, notice your mostly admirable post regarding the two
endings of Ein Heldenleben. Quite informative and interesting. Had it
stopped at interesting and informative I would have nothing but praise.
But of course you couldn't stop there, but had to go on to make a few of
your trademark snarky remarks, this time in reference to Fritz Reiner.
And that's the problem: you can't stop when you're ahead; you have to go
on and foul the nest.
>
> That's more a rhetorical question, of course. The answer is pretty
> obvious.
> Now you can go.
Sorry to rain on your parade, but you are not, nor is their any prospect
you ever will be in charge of my comings and goings. Though it may
offend your inflated sense of your own importance, get used to it.
Bob Harper
M forever
> On 12/12/10 11:17 PM, M forever wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 13, 2:07 am, Bob Harper<bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
> (snip)
>
> >> I guess that shoe's a good fit.
>
> > Or "QED" or whatever else you type in whenever you have been sent back
> > into your corner again. This fallback to even more childish rhetoric
> > just confirms what I wrote above. You can not actually make an
> > argument. You just rely on silly rhetoric of the "you need help" and
> > "the shoe fits" kind. You are not a mentally mature person. Which is
> > also why you cling to pagan superstitions and idol worshiping.
> > And that's not a "shoe" that I would like to fit on you. That's a
> > detailed analysis of your behavior.
> > Now go back into your corner.
>
> > Oh, BTW, before you go sulk - in the past couple of days, I have
> > written a number of posts, some of them fairly extensive, on various
> > actual musical subjects. How come you don't reply to any of them?
>
> I did, in fact, notice your mostly admirable post regarding the two
> endings of Ein Heldenleben. Quite informative and interesting. Had it
> stopped at interesting and informative I would have nothing but praise.
> But of course you couldn't stop there, but had to go on to make a few of
> your trademark snarky remarks, this time in reference to Fritz Reiner.
> And that's the problem: you can't stop when you're ahead; you have to go
> on and foul the nest.
Aha. So there is nothing wrong with my detailed analysis of what
Strauss wrote, but when I go on to give an example for how this ending
is often badly done in performance, and I explain in equal detail
exactly why I think so - everything I said is easily verifiable
because I chose a very well known recording which most have access to,
and everything I said is based on nothing but what can be heard there:
that the low trumpets are replaced by trombones - fact - that the
trombones come in quite loud - fact - and with audible plops - fact -
so that the whole coloristic effect Strauss carefully orchestrated
here is lost - so when I say that, suddenly it's "snarky" and "fouling
the nest"?
Everything I said is clearly audible on the recording and easily
verifiable. Comparing that to better recordings with the score in
front of one confirms that even more. I could have pointed out a few
more things, namely that the line is broken there after the two first
notes, so the fluent transition from Eb to C minor So how is that
"snarky", and how is it "fouling the nest"? And how is your response
which doesn't employ any musical terms but instead only those personal
attacks not "snarky"?
Please explain. If you have a different opinion, refute my
observations using musical terms, like I did. You can find the score
on imdb.org
And once you have done that, please explain how my criticism is
"fouling the nest". What "nest"?
M forever
I don't get the joke. Please explain.
David O.
wrote:
>I don't get the joke. Please explain.
I explain it all on Facebook. Please send me a friend request!
M forever
Sorry I don't do Facebook. Too many security concerns. I had a page,
and some really freaky stuff happened. I got friend suggestions about
people I do actually know, but there was absolutely no information on
my page which could have linked us.
Gerard
> Sorry I don't do Facebook. Too many security concerns. I had a page,
> and some really freaky stuff happened. I got friend suggestions about
> people I do actually know, but there was absolutely no information on
> my page which could have linked us.
What a surprise!
Kip Williams
I don't do Facebook. Could you explain here?
Kip W
pianomaven
> I don't do Facebook. Could you explain here?
I'll bet you don't "do Facebook".
Better to keep yourself under wraps on Usenet.
HA HA HA HA
TD
David O.
<k...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>>> I don't get the joke. Please explain.
>>
>> I explain it all on Facebook. Please send me a friend request!
>
>I don't do Facebook. Could you explain here?
Come on, you guys! I HATE explaining a dumb joke!
Kip Williams
I quit Facebook because they disabled any third-party extensions that
made it less of a pain in the ass to use. Their terrible record on abuse
of supposedly confidential information was also a consideration.
> HA HA HA HA
Oh dear, he's brought out the big guns. We'd best surrender now or he'll
go "BWAHAHA!" or "ROTFLMAO!" at us. It is well known that no known facts
or arguments can stand up to the awesome power of typed-out imitation
laughter.
Kip W
ivanmaxim
Yes its hard to argue with such a lucid argument Wagner fan
O
<DavidO...@verizon.net> wrote:
Never explain a joke. Better to keep it a mystery.
-Owen
Kip Williams
I looked up the reference myself. Nobody need explain it on my account.
Kip W
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:xYzNo.7749$lL1....@newsfe21.iad:
More in character, I think, would be "nyuk nyuk nyuk!"
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
pianomaven
> pianomaven wrote:
> > On Dec 13, 5:38 pm, Kip Williams<k...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >> I don't do Facebook. Could you explain here?
>
> > I'll bet you don't "do Facebook".
>
> > Better to keep yourself under wraps on Usenet.
>
> I quit Facebook because they disabled any third-party extensions that
> made it less of a pain in the ass to use. Their terrible record on abuse
> of supposedly confidential information was also a consideration.
A principled departure?
Hmmmmmm.
Or nobody woud "friend" you, perhaps?
TDf
pianomaven
Well, it sure leaves you speechless every time, Dickey.
Time for another shower, honey?
TD
jrsnfld
> On Nov 30, 9:23 pm, jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 29, 4:55 pm, Lena <emswo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 29, 11:24 am, jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Nov 28, 8:25 am, Lena <emswo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Nov 27, 10:05 am, Bob Harper <bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Mention was made here recently that this was 'in the can'.
>
> > > > > > Well. Right now I'm listening to a download of their performance of the
> > > > > > Pastoral a couple of days ago in Paris. If the entire cycle is at this
> > > > > > level, it will be very special indeed. This performance is slowish, but
> > > > > > so full of incident and detail that the speed seems exactly right. The
> > > > > > audience reaction seems to agree. Now on to the 7th from the same concert.
>
> > > > > Umm, where is this found? (If this can be divulged.) Not sure about
> > > > > what I think ofThielemannin this repertoire, but this is curiosity-
> > > > > inducing.
>
> > > > > Lena
>
> > > > For the next few weeks you can hear this at your leisure, thanks to
> > > > Radio France:
>
> > > >http://sites.radiofrance.fr/francemusique/em/concert-soir/emission.ph...
>
> > > Thank you! Listening right now... (Is my bass turned way up?? Well,
> > > it doesn't matter, I kind of like it.)
>
> > > I managed to get to other sources of wisdom, too, so I may have to
> > > take a brief break to actually listen to all this!
>
> > > Lena
>
> > Other sources of wisdom often sound best because they emanate from
> > wise ones with digital cable.
>
> Yes, very true, and well spoken. (Though I think that ear-shaking
> bass I heard wasThielemann'sidea... :) )
>
> > I hope to hear this cycle in the next
> > couple weeks. Having just heard a good portion of Haitink's cycle from
> > last spring, in Chicago, I'm in the mood for moreBeethovenand I
> > remember liking what I heard fromThielemann'scycle in Vienna.
>
> I'll wait for assessments!
>
> I only heard the 6th, without giving it full attention, and I sampled
> the 7th with even less attention, but I was surprised -- I found
> myself liking at least the first 4 movements of the 6th. (I half-
> expected not to, because I knowThielemannwallows, and I've been in
> the anti-wallow camps for a while. Yes, he wallowed all right; but
> he also seems to have caught me off-guard, because I didn't protest
> very loudly.)
Just heard the 4th and 5th today: The 4th is not a success. The
rhythms are underemphasized in favor of some impossible ideal of
lyrical continuity or warmth of expression that just doesn't work for
me. Not that there aren't lovely aspects to the second movement, and
the last movement is certainly not too slow. The orchestra has its
luster. But the crisp rhythmic pointing that, for me at least, would
keep this symphony light but powerful, surprising and engaging even in
long stretches of relatively repetitive and mundane ideas, just isn't
there. So, score one for the Muti's, Solti's, Szell's, Mackerras's,
Kleiber's, and others who know what they're doing with the 4th.
There's no humor or wit or sarcasm in CT's 4th--nothing dry and
zinging. It sounds like he doesn't understand; at least it sounds nice
enough that we can sort of enjoy while missing the point.
Now the 5th is a completely different matter. It's outstanding. The
finale is gripping and swift, the slow movement interestingly phrased
and flowing with lovely balances and independent voices in the
counterpoint, the opening thrusting. And the orchestra seems more
vigorous here, getting stronger and stronger as the piece goes. Bravo!
--Jeff
M forever
So if the 5th is that good in your opinion, maybe Thielemann does know
one or two things about Beethoven. So maybe he has a concept of the
4th symphony that simply escaped you? The comparisons you are making
above are mostly so far away from what Thielemann's basic approach is
that they don't make sense to me at all to begin with. Could it be
that you simply approached this with the wrong expectations?
Just curious because I am surprised by the diametrically different
reactions you had to those two interpretations. I am also puzzled by
the comment about "mundane" ideas. The 4th may not wear
"revolutionary" on it sleeve, but it is actually a very innovative
symphony with many subtle touches that point far forward into the
romantic era.
pianomaven
My, my. So touchy!!!
Oh, I have it now.
One Nazi defends another. And that is what one hears of this musician,
incidentally. Not a nice man at all. Keep away from him.
Michael Schaeffer is sure to be quite fond of him. Except he's gay, of
course.
TD
jrsnfld
No. Not a chance. I know way more about Beethoven than Thielemann.
Sarcasm aside, however, if you read what I wrote you'll see that I
indicated that the 4th was actually an enjoyable experience to hear--
it wasn't far at all from my expectation. The simplest and most
plausible explanation is that Thielemann hit the mark with 5 (his
mark, of course, since it's not the "ultimate" performance--there is
no such thing) but not with 4. The examples I chose for comparison
were specific to the problem that bothered me about this performance,
not to suggest that there's just one way to do Beethoven 4. It is to
suggest that a one-dimensional performance isn't enough (and I take it
you agree or you wouldn't have misunderstood me).
It is possible my expectations were too high, but CT's conception of
the piece is not really much different than what I expected. Having
enjoyed a variety of different interpretations in the past, from
Rattle to Furtwangler to Abendroth to Tennstedt to Konwitschny to
Celibidache, it's more reasonable to think that maybe in this case
Thielemann just didn't get it right, even by his own interpretation.
And I'll grant that he probably does have an idea of what to do with
the piece. I wasn't really saying that he doesn't. It just didn't work
very well. Also, I was pretty clear that this was all IMHO. Although
(by implication) I was suggesting others know how to do this work
better.
> Just curious because I am surprised by the diametrically different
> reactions you had to those two interpretations. I am also puzzled by
> the comment about "mundane" ideas. The 4th may not wear
> "revolutionary" on it sleeve, but it is actually a very innovative
> symphony with many subtle touches that point far forward into the
> romantic era.
But that's exactly what I was saying--it's a different piece than the
5th and CT nailed the 5th but not the 4th and that the 4th has more to
it than he was able to get at. The others I mentioned honed in on an
essential aspect of the 4th that CT missed.
--Jeff
M forever
LOL. It's probably safe to say though that you have heard more
Beethoven recordings than Thielemann has...
> Sarcasm aside, however, if you read what I wrote you'll see that I
> indicated that the 4th was actually an enjoyable experience to hear--
> it wasn't far at all from my expectation. The simplest and most
> plausible explanation is that Thielemann hit the mark with 5 (his
> mark, of course, since it's not the "ultimate" performance--there is
> no such thing)
Of course not, although for me, the C.Kleiber recording and
Harnoncourt's live 2007 performance come as close to an "ultimate"
performance - let's call it a "penultimate" performance as any I have
heard. Both are of the kind of quality which (almost...) makes me
forget that I am listening to and nitpicking a performance as one so
often does when one listens to extremely familiar repertoire.
Especially the latter gave me a feeling of actually listening to the
music as the composer must have envisioned it rather than just an
interpretation. Of course, that is just my feeling but by that I don't
mean that I think the performance is "correct" or "authentic" or "this
is what it must have sounded like!". Rather, I mean that the musical
ideas are so well and so convincingly realized that I am not
*thinking* about technical and stylistic aspects anymore. I am just
listening to the music unfold.
> but not with 4. The examples I chose for comparison
> were specific to the problem that bothered me about this performance,
> not to suggest that there's just one way to do Beethoven 4. It is to
> suggest that a one-dimensional performance isn't enough (and I take it
> you agree or you wouldn't have misunderstood me).
>
> It is possible my expectations were too high, but CT's conception of
> the piece is not really much different than what I expected. Having
> enjoyed a variety of different interpretations in the past, from
> Rattle to Furtwangler to Abendroth to Tennstedt to Konwitschny to
> Celibidache, it's more reasonable to think that maybe in this case
> Thielemann just didn't get it right, even by his own interpretation.
Well, that's two points of criticism: one, that you think his
conception is one-dimensional and two, that he doesn't succeed as well
as he could have within the chosen frame of reference to bring that
conception across.
All that makes me curious. I wasn't really in a rush to hear yet more
Beethoven, including Thielemann's as I didn't think his DG recordings
were that great (OK, that was 15 years or so ago) but what little I
heard in the meantime (e.g. in a documentary about T which features
excerpts of him doing the 7th in Munich) didn't suggest to me that I
had to run to get his new Beethoven either.
In any case, which recording have you been listening to? Something you
got from Operashare? I see there are live recordings of him from
Vienna and from Paris. Which, if any, of these did you hear?
> And I'll grant that he probably does have an idea of what to do with
> the piece. I wasn't really saying that he doesn't. It just didn't work
> very well. Also, I was pretty clear that this was all IMHO. Although
> (by implication) I was suggesting others know how to do this work
> better.
>
> > Just curious because I am surprised by the diametrically different
> > reactions you had to those two interpretations. I am also puzzled by
> > the comment about "mundane" ideas. The 4th may not wear
> > "revolutionary" on it sleeve, but it is actually a very innovative
> > symphony with many subtle touches that point far forward into the
> > romantic era.
>
> But that's exactly what I was saying--it's a different piece than the
> 5th and CT nailed the 5th but not the 4th and that the 4th has more to
> it than he was able to get at. The others I mentioned honed in on an
> essential aspect of the 4th that CT missed.
Which aspect is that?
jrsnfld
Not exactly. I would like to believe that CT's conception is not one
dimensional. But it is easy to hear that the performance in question
is missing a critical dimension, so "one-dimensional" is a good enough
approximation of the performance. As a result, he doesn't succeed.
>
> All that makes me curious. I wasn't really in a rush to hear yet more
> Beethoven, including Thielemann's as I didn't think his DG recordings
> were that great (OK, that was 15 years or so ago) but what little I
> heard in the meantime (e.g. in a documentary about T which features
> excerpts of him doing the 7th in Munich) didn't suggest to me that I
> had to run to get his new Beethoven either.
>
> In any case, which recording have you been listening to? Something you
> got from Operashare? I see there are live recordings of him from
> Vienna and from Paris. Which, if any, of these did you hear?
>
The thread has been about the Paris cycle. I haven't looked to see if
any of these are available online from share groups, but I assume they
are. The Paris cycle is still available from Radio France, which is
how I heard it. I can't remember where I heard the earlier cycle from
Vienna, but it may have been rebroadcast on BBC, or maybe I heard it
from the ORF. I am tempted to go back to that Vienna cycle for a quick
comparison, time permitting.
>
>
> > And I'll grant that he probably does have an idea of what to do with
> > the piece. I wasn't really saying that he doesn't. It just didn't work
> > very well. Also, I was pretty clear that this was all IMHO. Although
> > (by implication) I was suggesting others know how to do this work
> > better.
>
> > > Just curious because I am surprised by the diametrically different
> > > reactions you had to those two interpretations. I am also puzzled by
> > > the comment about "mundane" ideas. The 4th may not wear
> > > "revolutionary" on it sleeve, but it is actually a very innovative
> > > symphony with many subtle touches that point far forward into the
> > > romantic era.
>
> > But that's exactly what I was saying--it's a different piece than the
> > 5th and CT nailed the 5th but not the 4th and that the 4th has more to
> > it than he was able to get at. The others I mentioned honed in on an
> > essential aspect of the 4th that CT missed.
>
> Which aspect is that?
Routinely giving enough character and delineation of the rhythms
through articulation, accent, selective emphasis. Otherwise any
Beethoven becomes rather lifeless and the 4th wears out its welcome
because it can indeed sound rather mundane if not well characterized.
--Jeff
Gerard
>
> Routinely giving enough character and delineation of the rhythms
> through articulation, accent, selective emphasis. Otherwise any
> Beethoven becomes rather lifeless and the 4th wears out its welcome
> because it can indeed sound rather mundane if not well characterized.
>
Which recordings of the 4th do you consider to be the really recommandable ones?
M forever
You can find both on Operashare (not surprisingly). The ones from
Radio France seem to be taken from streaming audio off the internet
which probably means they sound pretty crappy, but since it's free, I
will check these out anyway. Do you have satellite radi,o or how else
do you get ORF?
> > > And I'll grant that he probably does have an idea of what to do with
> > > the piece. I wasn't really saying that he doesn't. It just didn't work
> > > very well. Also, I was pretty clear that this was all IMHO. Although
> > > (by implication) I was suggesting others know how to do this work
> > > better.
>
> > > > Just curious because I am surprised by the diametrically different
> > > > reactions you had to those two interpretations. I am also puzzled by
> > > > the comment about "mundane" ideas. The 4th may not wear
> > > > "revolutionary" on it sleeve, but it is actually a very innovative
> > > > symphony with many subtle touches that point far forward into the
> > > > romantic era.
>
> > > But that's exactly what I was saying--it's a different piece than the
> > > 5th and CT nailed the 5th but not the 4th and that the 4th has more to
> > > it than he was able to get at. The others I mentioned honed in on an
> > > essential aspect of the 4th that CT missed.
>
> > Which aspect is that?
>
> Routinely giving enough character and delineation of the rhythms
> through articulation, accent, selective emphasis. Otherwise any
> Beethoven becomes rather lifeless and the 4th wears out its welcome
> because it can indeed sound rather mundane if not well characterized.
Sounds interesting (or maybe not LOL). Now you made me curious. I will
probably check that out later.
BTW, the last time I heard the 4th was a really, really good recording
I highly recommend - with Kubelík and התזמורת הפילהרמונית הישראלית
jrsnfld
> > > In any case, which recording have you been listening to? Something you
> > > got from Operashare? I see there are live recordings of him from
> > > Vienna and from Paris. Which, if any, of these did you hear?
>
> > The thread has been about the Paris cycle. I haven't looked to see if
> > any of these are available online from share groups, but I assume they
> > are. The Paris cycle is still available from Radio France, which is
> > how I heard it. I can't remember where I heard the earlier cycle from
> > Vienna, but it may have been rebroadcast on BBC, or maybe I heard it
> > from the ORF. I am tempted to go back to that Vienna cycle for a quick
> > comparison, time permitting.
>
> You can find both on Operashare (not surprisingly). The ones from
> Radio France seem to be taken from streaming audio off the internet
> which probably means they sound pretty crappy, but since it's free, I
> will check these out anyway. Do you have satellite radi,o or how else
> do you get ORF?
>
I don't mind crappy sound, so I use the internet to get Radio France,
ORF, etc. Both stations have decent sound. Some of the others are not
so good. Do you know a good radio service that has a good selection of
stations for US customers? How much does that cost?
--Jeff
jrsnfld
Oh, I don't know. I am not a fan of Klemperer's EMI recording, but I
liked his live cycle from Vienna better. I am also not a fan of
Solti's third recording mostly because I very much liked his first and
second quite a bit. I think I posted something about the 4th a while
back and chose Tennstedt(/BSO?), Noseda, Celibidache, Ormandy, and
E.Kleiber as among my favorites for various movements (but wait, there
are only four movements!). But to be honest, there are too many
recordings that rise to the level of really recommendable. C Kleiber's
done a couple that I liked as much as any and nowadays I might start
with him (although, come to think of it, I probably started with
Furtwangler, Toscanini's later NBC recording, and Szell, and still
appreciate those, too). I don't know if I've heard Harnoncourt live,
but his studio recording is excellent if I recall correctly. I seem to
remember liking Jochum/Concertgebouw a lot too, and Schuricht on EMI
and....memory fails me.
--Jeff
M forever
I do mind crappy sound very much, even if it's free. Unless we are
talking about historical recordings, of course. I have been collecting
some of the Mahler recordings by ONF/Gatti but the streaming sound on
France Musique is really quite bad - I have heard better streaming
audio from other sources. So I look for those recordings on sites such
as Operashare where sometimes recordings taken from satellite radio
broadcasts show up. Those can be quite decent. I think the BBC Proms
stuff is usually quite good (IIRC, I have only listened to that a few
times). Dunno about US stations, but I dimly recall grabbing a
streamed Mahler 3 with Maazel/NYP once which sounded really good (for
streaming audio). I don't recall what station (or website) that was
though.
Gerard
Thanks.
It looks like I have only the "wrong ones" ;-(
(the one by Szell excepted - if there is only one by Szell)
BTW I've never seen a recording by C. Kleiber. If there are different ones: is
there one to have? An available one?
M forever
There are two, little idiot boy. One with the Bayerisches
Staatsorchester and a video with the Concertgebouworkest. They are
both easily available through online sellers such as amazon.de, if it
is not below your dignity to order from the evil German neighbors.
OTOH, you would need a credit card for that which you probably don't
have since you don't have a job and spend all your time in front of
the computer in your parents' basement.
jrsnfld
Just to be clear, I don't consider Furtwangler or Toscanini or Szell
to be "wrong ones". I only know one Szell recording (there may be a
broadcast that I've heard, too, but I don't remember what I thought).
Toscanini fans seem to tend toward his BBC recording or the earlier
NBC cycle. I've never tried to compare closely. Nor have I compared
the two Furtwangler recordings--I was referring to Vienna Phil on EMI,
but actually I've migrated over the Berlin performance on DG from June
30, 1943. Certainly any Beethoven listener would want to hear at least
one of those.
--Jeff
Gerard
I've enjoyed your usual friendliness very much.
BTW I have no time to read all your posts (specially not since they are very
long, usually).
Maybe you can mark your Really Important Posts with *"RIP"* in the subject line.
Gerard
Sure. That was clear.
jrsnfld
> On Dec 21, 4:30 pm, jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > I don't mind crappy sound, so I use the internet to get Radio France,
> > ORF, etc. Both stations have decent sound. Some of the others are not
> > so good. Do you know a good radio service that has a good selection of
> > stations for US customers? How much does that cost?
>
> I do mind crappy sound very much, even if it's free. Unless we are
> talking about historical recordings, of course.
I do hereby declare Thielemann's Paris performances to be history,
therefore historical.
There. That absolves you of seeking crappiness.
> I dimly recall grabbing a
> streamed Mahler 3 with Maazel/NYP once which sounded really good (for
> streaming audio). I don't recall what station (or website) that was
> though.
The NYP website has pretty good streaming sound; perhaps someone is
picking up an FM signal or satellite from a specific broadcast,
however. I would if I could.
--Jeff
Bob Harper
From http://www.archive.org/details/BeethovenSymphonyNo.4
> BEETHOVEN: Symphony No. 4 in B-flat Major, Op. 60.
> Cleveland Orchestra. Szell's first recording with Cleveland.
> Columbia 78rpm Album MM 705. Recorded April 22, 1947.
Not sure of any others.
Bob Harper
Gerard
I have a lot of recordings of this symphony (and Beethoven's others), and I
cannot remember having been dissatisfied with one.
And surely I cannot point to one or two, saying "these are the best" or "I like
these the best", or something like that.
Once I have compared 8 or 10 recordings, and I could not make some kind of
selection.
It's possible that it is an underrated work - but OTOH to me it looks like a
performance hardly can go wrong.
M forever
So I grabbed the Paris recording from Operashare and despite the
unpleasant sound quality, I listened to the first movement of the 4th
because I was curious to match your comments to the performance. I
didn't listen to the rest of the 4th because I am not really
interested to right now. But the first movement was enough to confirm
for me that your observations were exact. It's a flabby, somewhat
aimless performance which really doesn't seem to have much of a
concept or a direction. In many places, the performance is mechanical,
but in an oddly limp and pulseless way, and lyrical elements are
underexposed throughout (e.g. the wonderful lyrical passage soon after
the beginning of the development, one of my favorite passages in all
music). There isn't much sense of mystery or foreboding or indeed
anything in the slow introduction either. Really quite disappointing.
Competently played, no surprise there, but really not "enough" for
such high-profile forces.
jrsnfld
This made me nervous about the 7th, which rarely overcomes a limp
performance, but the first movement instead seemed very successful.
Not a typical interpretation relying simply on stead enerygy, but
daringly sculpted into something quite eventful and powerful...and not
too vehement or too slack. The last movement maybe was not as good
with the same approach--some fussy moments with the tempo sank it
(although with such an orchestra and music it isn't a total failure).
The second movement was also effective and original. All in all, a
very interesting performance that doesn't quite live up to the promise
of the opening movement but far exceeds the performance of the 4th.
--Jeff
M forever
I also listened to the first two movements of the live 4th from Vienna
(2008) and it seemed a little more convincing to me. A little more
spirited, a little more energetic, but still on the heavy, inflexible
side. The second movement was rather nice, but not a "revelation"
either. There were a few overemphasized "points" in both movements I
didn't like so much and found too ostentatious. A few sudden dynamic
shifts to p in the second movement, for instance. And one thing I
really didn't like was the transition from the slow introduction to
the Allegro. He makes a big luftpause between the crescendoing notes
in the violins and the tutti entry. I found that unnecessary and over
the top, kind of letting the air out of the tension built up by the
crescendo. Or was that in the Paris version? Or both? I don't
remember.
I don't think I am going to investigate this further at this time. I
will probably listen to the DG recordings when they come out, or at
some point.
The last time I mentioned Kubelík's 4th. Are you familiar with that
recording? I think it's really good.
jrsnfld
I have it but am not familiar with it...one of these days I'll try it
again.
--Jeff
M forever
Did you ever hear T-man's first recording of the 7th (and 5th, for
that matter)? Silly question, I know. Of course you did. What do you
think about them?
jrsnfld
> Did you ever hear T-man's first recording of the 7th (and 5th, for
> that matter)? Silly question, I know. Of course you did. What do you
> think about them?
No, I didn't buy those, and now that we have a new cycle to consider,
I'm not likely to go back and get them unless they turn up for a
dollar and I'm bored. Which may indeed happen someday, but with two
different live broadcasts of each symphony with the Vienna Phil now in
hand plus stray Beethoven with Munich and maybe Berlin Philharmonics
too (I can't keep track anymore), it's hard to care what he was doing
with the Philharmonia for DG back then.
--Jeff
M forever
I would have thunk that would be exactly your thing, comparing now and
then to see what development he has undergone as Beethoven conductor
and all that...
I don't want to encourage your addiction, but if you want to hear some
interesting new Beethoven, I would point you to some of the recordings
made by Bertrand de Billy and RSO Wien (formerly ORF-
Sinfonieorchester), in particular the 6th which I think is excellent.
Superficially heard, there is nothing particularly "interesting" or
"different" about them, no "spectacular insights". But these are
thoroughly musical performances in an "unspectacular" but not at all
"just solid" way. The performances are meticulously prepared with
respect to fine inner detail, phrasing and textures. The playing is
sonorous and spirited and the recorded sound very good, too, very
"natural". Not exactly the philosopher's stone, but among the best
Beethoven I have heard in quite a while. Just really good, natural and
unmannered music making and conducting.
mark
> Mention was made here recently that this was 'in the can'.
>
> Well. Right now I'm listening to a download of their performance of the
> Pastoral a couple of days ago in Paris. If the entire cycle is at this
> level, it will be very special indeed. This performance is slowish, but
> so full of incident and detail that the speed seems exactly right. The
> audience reaction seems to agree. Now on to the 7th from the same concert.
>
The cycle was recorded with the VPO in Vienna and is being issued on
DVD and BRD. You can order now thru the VPO website.
mark
> On Nov 27, 10:05 am, Bob Harper <bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > Mention was made here recently that this was 'in the can'.
>
> DVD and BRD. You can order now thru the VPO website.
Sorry. Didn't provide a link. Here:
Beethoven Cycle with Christian Thielemann
The Beethoven Cycle of the 21st Century
Christian Thielemann and the Vienna Philharmonic have recorded all
nine Beethoven symphonies in HD and Surround Sound in the Golden Hall
of the Musikverein in Vienna.
The recordings are being released in sets of 3 DVD (or 1 BluRay)
discs. The first two DVDs include three symphonies each. The third DVD
features the approximately three-hour documentary film „Beethoven
entdecken“, presented by Joachim Kaiser, Germany’s premier music
critic, which includes a discussion with Christian Thielemann and a
comparison with earlier film recordings of these symphonies by
Karajan, Bernstein, Böhm, Järvi and others. This documentary
illuminates all aspects of Beethoven’s symphonic compositions and
provides detailed insight into the composer’s musical thought
processes.
These recordings can be ordered here at the E-Shop of the Vienna
Philharmonic. Reduced price when ordering the complete cycle.
https://shop.wienerphilharmoniker.at/en/magazin/Beethoven9