Moravec Portrait

[Alan Cooper]

https://www.supraphon.com/album/586246-ivan-moravec-portrait (also https://www.supraphonline.cz/album/586245-ivan-moravec-portrait).

Self-recommending, compiled from diverse labels, featuring first official digital reissues of some items, including the famous Beethoven "Pastoral" from CS, the Nonesuch Brahms & Schumann, etc. Scheduled for issue in a couple of days @about the equivalent of $55 list price for 11 CDs + 1 DVD.

AC

[Henk vT]

> Self-recommending, compiled from diverse labels, featuring first official digital reissues of some items, including the famous Beethoven "Pastoral" from CS, the Nonesuch Brahms & Schumann, etc. Scheduled for issue in a couple of days @about the equivalent of $55 list price for 11 CDs + 1 DVD.

Thanks!

Henk

[Graham]

I'm a fan of Moravec but draw the line at the recordings made in Manhattan.
The piano sound is appalling. As an example. I listened to his Franck PC&F
this afternoon. A superb performance ruined by what sounds like a
honky-tonk, bar-room piano.

[Steve Emerson]

Thanks, Alan! Have you found a reliable Moravec discography? It seems you're correct that they're using the Nonesuch Schumann Kinderszenen here, and not the Supraphon from August 1987. (By contrast the Chopin Preludes appear to be the Supraphon recordings, not the Connoisseur.) The Janacek should also be Nonesuch material and the first digital release. Guess I have about 85% of this in some form or other, so the usual dilemma...

SE.

[Frank Berger]

The usual caveats:

https://tinyurl.com/y2aka38j

[Alan Cooper]

Yeah, me too. I recognize that this issue looks rather catch-as-catch can. If only it had been possible to create a (more) complete anthology. I'm justifying the order for that other 15% and because the packaging will save space :-) The discography for which Frank provided the link has the (by now) well-known story about the CS issue of the "Pastoral" Sonata. Just to add to the fun, Supraphon says that the recording took place on Feb 4, 1970 in the Dvořákova síň Rudolfina, Praha, viz., neither in NYC (studio) nor Italy (live).

Btw, the $55 price that I quoted failed to take postage into account. For buyers in the US, Amazon's pre-release price w/free postage is likely a better deal.

Alan

[Steve Emerson]

This might be "BA" (Baldwin aversion). When you say recordings made in Manhattan, do you mean the Connoisseur material produced by E. Alan Silver (which includes the Franck as well as most of what put Moravec on the map)? These btw are not the only IM recordings made in Manhattan, as the Max Wilcox-produced stuff (for Nonesuch, Schumann/Brahms and Janacek; for Vox, "Plays Chopin and Debussy") was all most likely made there. Just wondering. Different strokes...

SE.

[Steve Emerson]

Much appreciated, Frank. Very useful discography and great use of the Wayback Machine. The variousness of his recordings, and Connoisseur's assembly of them, is even more confusing than I'd realized.

SE.

[Frank Berger]

I accidentally discovered that if you click on the tracks in
the supraphon web site listing above it tells you the date
and place and other recording information.

[Graham]

Yes, those are the recordings. Until Frank posted the discography earlier
today, I didn't know that it was a Baldwin. This "innocent ear" just
recognised a lousy piano sound.
Graham

[Frank Berger]

It's not going to be helpful if those links point to wrong
information is it? The famous Beethoven PC #4 with
Turnovsky link claims a recording date of June 21, 1965.
All other references to that recording say it was October
1963. Unless there are two with the same orchestra and
conductor.

[Invocation]

Do not use it as the "absolute" reference. I have found several examples that the dates given on their website/webstore are different from what is given in the booklet of the same recording on physical disc. Not sure why there is such a discrepency.

Regarding this specific Moravec set, the detailed contents and date information can be found here:
https://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Piano-Collection_000000000017977/item_Ivan-Moravec-Portrait-11CD-DVD_11242421

[George]

On Thursday, October 22, 2020 at 12:00:18 PM UTC-4, Steve Emerson wrote:

I have all but the unreleased stuff. Has anyone worked out which performances here are new to CD? Supraphon mentions that some of it is new to CD, but they don't list which performances.

George

[Invocation]

Check the HMV Japan link I posted above. Those works marked with asterisk are first time CD release. I also think the DVD is first time issue.

[George]

OK, I'm pretty sure that I have all the Moravec CDs that have been released. I just checked the Supraphon site and came up with about 88 minutes of previously unreleased, on CD, performances:

Schumann - Scenes from childhood and Arabesque, 1984
Brahms - Op. 117, 1-3 - 1984
Ravel - Habanera - 1963
Janacek - On an overgrown path (3 selections) - 1983
Martinu - Etudes and Polkas (3 selections) - 2001
Beethoven - Op. 28 Pastoral sonata - 1970

George

[Invocation]

According to Supraphon, Brahms' op. 76-2 and 79-2 are also first time CD release. Those are also recorded in 1984, along with op. 117 and the Schumann.

[George]

Thanks, I had those confused with the ones recorded live in Brussels in 1983, released on the Supraphon CD, Live In Brussels.

George

[Steve Emerson]

All of the Janacek is released here for the first time, AFAIK. The full contents of Nonesuch LP 79041 (Hamburg Steinway): "In the Mists" (16:14) and the Sonata (14:42) as well as the "Overgrown Path" selections. As Invocation notes, the whole of the Nonesuch Brahms and Schumann LP is also present (which includes the Schumann Arabesque, not noted in your post). I haven't checked anything else, so no guarantees on the rest.

SE.

[Alan Cooper]

Right, and the Nonesuch items are a big incentive for me. One oddity noted in passing is that they seem to be available only in the CD issue. If you go to https://www.supraphonline.cz/album/586245-ivan-moravec-portrait and toggle from the CD/DVD listing to the downloadable version, you'll see the Nonesuch items vanish. Thus the CD 7 download seems to include only the Appassionata, which runs for all of about 21:30! Could be an error in the listing, I suppose, but I kinda doubt it. I wanted the CD set anyway.

AC

[Invocation]

The whole Nonesuch LP is removed from the digital release of the set on all digital streaming platforms. My guess is that Nonesuch only licensed those recordings to Supraphon for physical album release. But I might be wrong.

[George]

Thanks. The Janacek you mention is duplicated (though live) on the live in Prague CD, so I missed it. I listed the Arabesque in my OP.

That brings the total of unreleased (on CD) performances to 128 minutes. Looks like I'll getting this set after all.

George

George

[Al Eisner]

With people here self-debating whether to buy the set despite having
over 80% of it already, I don't suppose I should worry about my
having 10%. :)

I also have his Chopin Nocturnes, which don't appear to be in this
set. Didn't someone say that the set represented multiple labels?
--
Al Eisner

[vhorowitz]

The Chopin Nocturnes were released on CD by Nonesuch (from Connoisseur Society LPs originally) and now by Supraphon. To my ears the Supraphon is better sounding.....far less muffled than the Nonesuch issue, but not harsh on top.

[George]

On Saturday, October 24, 2020 at 10:41:05 PM UTC-4, vhorowitz wrote:
> The Chopin Nocturnes were released on CD by Nonesuch (from Connoisseur Society LPs originally) and now by Supraphon. To my ears the Supraphon is better sounding.....far less muffled than the Nonesuch issue, but not harsh on top.

I much prefer the warmer, darker sound of the Nonesuch mastering.

George

[George]

Yeah, if you only have 10%, you have a very easy decision.

I do wonder about the criteria they used in choosing material for this set.

George

[vhorowitz]

Hmm.....different audio setups, different ears, but the dullness of the Nonesuch is made worse on my setup by the overbearing bass that picks up Moravec’s pedaling noises enough to be really distracting to me. I WOULD like to hear the original LPs and see which was those were tilted.

[Al Eisner]

On Sat, 24 Oct 2020, vhorowitz wrote:

> The Chopin Nocturnes were released on CD by Nonesuch (from Connoisseur Society LPs originally) and now by Supraphon. To my ears the Supraphon is better sounding.....far less muffled than the Nonesuch issue, but not harsh on top.
>

So they actually are on this new set? They are not in the listing
at Presto. (The CD set I have is Nonesuch.)
--
Al Eisner

[Invocation]

No, the Nocturnes are not included in the new set. The new set is a (largely complete) selection of his Supraphon recordings. Not sure why Supraphon decided not to include all the previously released materials.

[George]

It looks like, except for the Scherzi, they avoided all of the more recent Supraphon releases.

https://www.supraphon.com/artists/152-ivan-moravec-piano

George

[Steve Emerson]

The term "Supraphon releases," or as per Mr. Invocation "Supraphon recordings," may be misleading here. The Scherzi are as good an example as any. Supraphon's release is a reissue of the Dorian recording, made in the U.S., (p) 1991. If you look at Supraphon's individual release called "Scherzi, Etudes, Mazurkas," you'll find that fact noted. The big box at hand of course has Connoisseur material (much of it previously reissued by Supraphon as well as VAI), plus recordings by Nonesuch, Vox, Dorian and maybe others, in addition to thngs that did originate with Supraphon.

Re: the Nocturnes, I never have heard the Supraphon transfer but am curious. Besides it and the Nonesuch (which is AAD), there's also an Erato Ultima, digital, which sounds much less like the LPs than does the Nonesuch.

The back cover of the Supraphon Nocturnes, seen online, shows it as AAD and "released under license from Nonesuch." Odd. To complicate matters, Supraphonline currently shows the Nonesuch cover, and not their own.

https://www.supraphonline.cz/album/150459-chopin-nocturnes-complete?

SE.

[George]

I listened to a few samples (via cheap earbuds) from the link you gave. It sure sounds like it is the Nonesuch mastering, so that's why they used the Nonesuch cover.

George

[George]

That's why I said Supraphon releases (and not recordings), as I now believe the reason Supraphon refrained from including material from their 10 or so most recent (except the Scherzi) releases is because if people buy this set, love what they hear (and why wouldn't they) then they will buy more. And Supraphon has 10 or so recent releases that they could sell to them.

This set is already labelled a "Best Seller" for amazon, so it seems Supraphon made the wise move here. If they had included everything, the box would likely cost twice as much, wouldn't sell as well and they wouldn't have the chance to sell off stock that has already been produced.

George

[Al Eisner]

On Thu, 22 Oct 2020, Alan Cooper wrote:

> Btw, the $55 price that I quoted failed to take postage into account. For buyers in the US, Amazon's pre-release price w/free postage is likely a better deal

Pre-ordered at Amazon for about $63 on Oct. 24, delivery date than delayed,
but today I got a message that delivery will be Nov. 19, and that there
would be a $10 refund on the pre-order price. (Free shipping, but
they do add on CA sales tax.)
--
Al Eisner

[Frank Berger]

Got mine today. First they announced a delay then delivered
it sooner. Go figure.

[Alan Cooper]

Good news. First I received a notice of delay until January. Then I got one informing we that my copy was shipped today. That was followed almost immediately by a note indicating that $11.62 would be refunded to my account because of Amazon's "Pre-order Price Guarantee." The tracking # doesn't come up on the USPS site, so I can hardly wait to see what additional "excitement" is in store :-)

AC

[Alan Cooper]

On Monday, November 9, 2020 at 3:22:51 PM UTC-5, dk wrote:

> You are doing great! Especially since there
> isn't any "excitement" in the Moravec set.
>
> dk

Yeah, "excitement" was not his forte, so to speak. But there's other stuff that I like about his playing.

AC

[MELMOTH]

dk a présenté l'énoncé suivant :
> and we had to climb the hill by foot
> from Van Ness!

At what tempo ?...

[vhorowitz]

If the beauty of Moravec’ playing doesn’t contain anything to excite you, Dan, I’m very sorry.....and I’m glad I’m not immune from his attributes....one of the great artists of the keyboard, as far as I’m concerned. Fantastic DVD included with the set.....It alone is worth the asking price.

[George]

On Tuesday, November 10, 2020 at 10:14:00 PM UTC-5, vhorowitz wrote:
> If the beauty of Moravec’ playing doesn’t contain anything to excite you, Dan, I’m very sorry.....and I’m glad I’m not immune from his attributes....one of the great artists of the keyboard, as far as I’m concerned. Fantastic DVD included with the set.....It alone is worth the asking price.

Well said, and thanks for sharing about the DVD.

George

[vhorowitz]

Hmm....seems a fine line between epic and ipecac for you. So many pianists/musicians seem to give you so little pleasure. I think if my love of music and listening led me to as much pain and suffering I would consider another pursuit. I don't think it's a matter of higher tolerance for mediocrity, but I don't see the point of wholesale trashing of such large swaths of the corpus pianistsicus. There are blind spots and then there is eventually blindness. I've "moved on" with many artists I don't connect with, but consider the possibility that it's my own blindspot and stop spending time listening to what might become a source of pain and nausea. I wish you pleasure where you can find it.

>
> Otherwise, no energy, no imagination and
> no spine. Chopin's 4th Ballade is one of my
> litmus tests of pianistic ability. Moravec
> plays it as if under anesthesia. Listening
> right now to refresh my memory, and it
> makes me want to throw up.
>
> dk

[CSal...@operamail.com]

There will always be the mentally deficient to whom Moravec's playing will never appeal. ;-)

BTW, I was at that Moravec Masonic Auditorium recital myself, and Moravec's tempos were hardly on the slow side - unless your frame of reference is bound by the borders of folks like HJ Lim (fast, but usually messy - just the way you like it!).

> De gustibus. Whatever makes one happy makes one happy.
> If Moravec does it for you, who am I to spoil your pleasure?
>
> Also, life is too short for mealy mouthed relativism.
>
> dk

[Chris from Lafayette]

Oh yes! I'm sure you've worked it all out from that "massive evidence" - from a statistical perspective of course! ;-)

On Wednesday, November 11, 2020 at 12:38:21 PM UTC-8, dk wrote:

> My frame of reference is bound by what I like. Otherwise,
> there is massive evidence on YT showing Moravec's tempi
> are statistically slower than average.
>
> dk

[vhorowitz]

Dan, I’m wondering “ life is too short for mealy mouthed relativism” why did you come to this thread about an artist who makes you want to vomit? Simply to “drop by” with a one sentence put down of those who were interested? In the interest of consumer “eduction”? At least your vomit message had some details instead of your more customary one word put down, but I still don’t get it. If you indulged in some of your own mealy mouthed relativism at least we would understand what you are hearing. And gosh, if one shitcans artists who are simply not the best A number 1 version of every work how would you ever know the peaks and valleys of an artist? If Moravec is uninteresting and objectionable to you partly because of his (perceived) slowish tempi, wouldn’t something like Richter (who I know you admire, as do I) doing Schubert’s G major sonata at half the tempo of most versions have led you to shitcan him for that interpretive sin??

[Bob Harper]

On 11/11/20 9:50 PM, dk wrote:

> The difference between Moravec and Richter is
> that the latter is expressive and makes music at
> any tempo -- no matter how slow -- while Ivan
> does not music at any tempo -- no matter how
> fast.
>
> Listen to Moravec's Chopin 4th Ballade on YT
> and you will not fail to understand what makes

> me want to throw up.
>
> dk
>

Dan, if you don't 'get' Moravec, I pity you. There's nothing more to
say, except that he was, indeed, a great musician.

Bob Harper

[MELMOTH]

Il se trouve que Bob Harper a formulé :

> Dan, if you don't 'get' Moravec, I pity you. There's nothing more to say,
> except that he was, indeed, a great musician.

Idem with *ARRAU* !...

[Chris from Lafayette]

Pardon me if I doubt you've done any "research" at all (other than pine away for HJ Lim while you kiss her picture on your cell phone). IMBECILE !!!

On Wednesday, November 11, 2020 at 4:15:54 PM UTC-8, dk wrote:
> > > My frame of reference is bound by what I like. Otherwise,
> > > there is massive evidence on YT showing Moravec's tempi
> > > are statistically slower than average.

> You can always do your own research if you
> do not think mine is valid. IMBECILE !!!
>
> dk

[Chris from Lafayette]

How he clings to his fantasies!

On Thursday, November 12, 2020 at 11:06:02 AM UTC-8, dk wrote:
> Harper, if you don't 'get' HJ LIm, I pity you. There's
> nothing more to say, except that she is, indeed, a
> great musician. Far greater than "Moravec".
>
> dk

[JohnGavin]

>
> Listen to Moravec's Chopin 4th Ballade on YT

> and you will not fail to understand what makes

> me want to throw up.
>
> dk

The difference between Moravec and Richter is
that the latter is expressive and makes music at
any tempo -- no matter how slow -- while Ivan
does not music at any tempo -- no matter how
fast.

A past participant in this newsgroup described Richter’s Chopin as a huge Russian tank running over a beautiful flower garden. I got his point immediately. Richter, of course had a huge repertoire, but I’ve never believed he played all of it equally well. For my taste Richter lacked humor, lightness and a sense of repose, and yes, I know his Schubert. Each to his own.

[Bob Harper]

On 11/12/20 11:05 AM, dk wrote:

>> Dan, if you don't 'get' Moravec, I pity you. There's
>> nothing more to say, except that he was, indeed,
>> a great musician.
>

> Harper, if you don't 'get' HJ LIm, I pity you. There's
> nothing more to say, except that she is, indeed, a
> great musician. Far greater than "Moravec".
>
> dk
>

I respect your right to have such an opinion, even if I don't agree with
it. But it IS just an opinion.

Bob Harper

[MELMOTH]

dk a émis l'idée suivante :

> Harper, if you don't 'get' HJ LIm, I pity you. There's
> nothing more to say, except that she is, indeed, a
> great musician. Far greater than "Moravec".

*MMMOOOUUUAAARRRFFF* !!! ©MELMOTH

[MELMOTH]

JohnGavin a couché sur son écran :

> Richter, of course had a huge repertoire, but I’ve never believed he played
> all of it equally well. For my taste Richter lacked humor, lightness and a
> sense of repose, and yes, I know his Schubert. Each to his own.

Richter was DEPRESIVE!...I heard him six times in concert...I NEVER saw
him even smiling !...I often wondered if he was more or less suffering
from Asperger's syndrome !....
But I have almost everything he recorded !...He is like Gould...Not a
pianist...Not an artist...No...A Martian genius from nowhere....

[Al Eisner]

On Mon, 9 Nov 2020, Al Eisner wrote:

> On Thu, 22 Oct 2020, Alan Cooper wrote:
>
>> Btw, the $55 price that I quoted failed to take postage into account. For
>> buyers in the US, Amazon's pre-release price w/free postage is likely a
>> better deal
>
> Pre-ordered at Amazon for about $63 on Oct. 24, delivery date than delayed,
> but today I got a message that delivery will be Nov. 19, and that there
> would be a $10 refund on the pre-order price. (Free shipping, but
> they do add on CA sales tax.)

And actually arrived November 11.
--
Al Eisner

[vhorowitz]

On Wednesday, November 11, 2020 at 11:50:31 PM UTC-6, dk wrote:
> On Thursday, November 12, 2020 at 1:40:21 PM UTC+8, vhorowitz wrote:

> The difference between Moravec and Richter is
> that the latter is expressive and makes music at
> any tempo -- no matter how slow -- while Ivan
> does not music at any tempo -- no matter how
> fast.
>
> Listen to Moravec's Chopin 4th Ballade on YT

> and you will not fail to understand what makes

> me want to throw up.
>
> dk

Certainly true that Richter nearly always connects with his core of expressivity even when he's trying to be uber-objective. Moravec tends to want to smell the roses and dig around for choice voicings before wrapping it up in some kind of structure. Sometimes it's just what I want to hear, but I've usually been too busy trying to figure out how he gets his fairly unique tonal balancing to judge his expressivity, per se....something to think about. But of course it's a personal thing.....as someone who "plays at the piano" professionally, but not at any such exalted level, I tend to gravitate towards those who make me want to emulate things in their playing rather than "definitive" renditions, but I get in moods for the latter too. So Moravec strikes a "chord" in me for that reason....as does another err....not fav of yours, Arrau, but yes, I know he's fussy and lumpy, etc. And Kempff shows me where light and shade and unexpected meanderings are to be found within a "Germanic" form. And maybe some day Benno Moiseivitsch's tone will come visit me. If my fingers could manage that I could die happy. But hey, the world goes round and we're all in it for the stuff that makes us happy.