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Karajan's Digital Beethoven Cycle - Now, I'm Confused
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Mark S
Feb 6, 2012, 11:43:15 AM2/6/12
to
I picked up DG's el cheapo 13-CD reissue of "Beethoven/Karajan" the
other week, mainly because it included his recording of the Grosse
Fugue, which I hadn't noticed before on CD.
The set received, I loaded the symphonies into the CD magazine in the
car and have so far listened to 1-4 and 8. I remember these recordings
from their initial CD issue. I also remember being none-too-happy
about the recorded sound. I was among those who thought "why bother?
He's already done better than this." This set was later rereleased in
the Karajan Gold series, which I avoided as I felt these recordings
were beyond salvaging.
Well, this new set features the Karajan Gold remasterings, and I am
shocked - SHOCKED! - to find myself pleasantly surprised with these
recordings. The recordings have a much more natural front-to-back
perspective than I recall. They certainly have more depth than his 77
cycle. That oppressive mic closeness that compromised so many early DG
recordings has been tamed here (of course, my memory of this
particular set could be faulty. That, and the fact that my hearing is
about 27 years older than it was when these were first released, which
is to say, my hearing isn't as good as it once was.).
As far as the interpretations, they are aggressive in the typical
Karajan fashion, and Andante tempi are sometimes slower than his
previous recordings. Overall, the interpretations all make sense to
me. This is big-boned Beethoven, but it isn't muddled Beethoven at
all. On occasion, the solo winds seem a little distant when playing
solo licks (notably in the Eroica). This isn't a problem in tutti
sections where the winds are doubled. There the balances are just fine
between the choirs. But when it's a single wind soloist against the
string section, it comes off almost like a ripieno effect. I wonder if
that was a conscious decision on Ks part or if the soloists are simply
over matched in the mix.
The set's outstanding feature is K's musicality. His sense of legato
and his ability to create that technicolor sound is impressive. Yes,
he tends to ramp up the harmonic tension on occasion (often by having
the players add an edge to their tone), but that serves Beethoven
well, IMHO.
In short, everything that I look for in Beethoven - or in musical
performance, for that matter - is here in spades. Of course, I have
yet to listen to the symphonies n this cycle that I never warmed to
(especially the9th), so I could be revising my thoughts once again.
I'd be interested in opinions from those who have heard these
recordings in their various masterings. I've always written this set
off, not just from Ks oeuvre, but as being non-competitive in the
general Beethoven sweepstakes. Now, I'm thinking that my thoughts were
off the mark. That, or I'm going deaf.
I'd still recommend his '77 set at the top recommendation if one wants
a set by K, but this one is not that far down the ladder.
other week, mainly because it included his recording of the Grosse
Fugue, which I hadn't noticed before on CD.
The set received, I loaded the symphonies into the CD magazine in the
car and have so far listened to 1-4 and 8. I remember these recordings
from their initial CD issue. I also remember being none-too-happy
about the recorded sound. I was among those who thought "why bother?
He's already done better than this." This set was later rereleased in
the Karajan Gold series, which I avoided as I felt these recordings
were beyond salvaging.
Well, this new set features the Karajan Gold remasterings, and I am
shocked - SHOCKED! - to find myself pleasantly surprised with these
recordings. The recordings have a much more natural front-to-back
perspective than I recall. They certainly have more depth than his 77
cycle. That oppressive mic closeness that compromised so many early DG
recordings has been tamed here (of course, my memory of this
particular set could be faulty. That, and the fact that my hearing is
about 27 years older than it was when these were first released, which
is to say, my hearing isn't as good as it once was.).
As far as the interpretations, they are aggressive in the typical
Karajan fashion, and Andante tempi are sometimes slower than his
previous recordings. Overall, the interpretations all make sense to
me. This is big-boned Beethoven, but it isn't muddled Beethoven at
all. On occasion, the solo winds seem a little distant when playing
solo licks (notably in the Eroica). This isn't a problem in tutti
sections where the winds are doubled. There the balances are just fine
between the choirs. But when it's a single wind soloist against the
string section, it comes off almost like a ripieno effect. I wonder if
that was a conscious decision on Ks part or if the soloists are simply
over matched in the mix.
The set's outstanding feature is K's musicality. His sense of legato
and his ability to create that technicolor sound is impressive. Yes,
he tends to ramp up the harmonic tension on occasion (often by having
the players add an edge to their tone), but that serves Beethoven
well, IMHO.
In short, everything that I look for in Beethoven - or in musical
performance, for that matter - is here in spades. Of course, I have
yet to listen to the symphonies n this cycle that I never warmed to
(especially the9th), so I could be revising my thoughts once again.
I'd be interested in opinions from those who have heard these
recordings in their various masterings. I've always written this set
off, not just from Ks oeuvre, but as being non-competitive in the
general Beethoven sweepstakes. Now, I'm thinking that my thoughts were
off the mark. That, or I'm going deaf.
I'd still recommend his '77 set at the top recommendation if one wants
a set by K, but this one is not that far down the ladder.
Mark S
Feb 6, 2012, 11:57:15 AM2/6/12
to
Prediction: gerard will respond "you're going deaf."
Randy Lane
Feb 6, 2012, 12:01:41 PM2/6/12
to
with regard to the accoustic/audio qualities resemble my surprise when
I bought the 2 CD Grieg/Sibelius set that was part of the 2003 duos
that had pictures of Karajan with some of his toys (boats/planes/
etc) :
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00008CLNS
The Sibelius Pelleas recording dates from about the same period as the
Beethoven set you discuss, and when I heard it originally I puked and
swore I would avoid all Karajan DDD recordings, save the spectacular
Bruckner 7 & 8 from Vienna. I bought the 2CD set for some of the other
recordings, but was pleasantly surprised, like you with the Beethoven,
to find the accoustic/audio qualities quite different from the
original release.
wkasimer
Feb 6, 2012, 1:19:15 PM2/6/12
to
On Feb 6, 11:43 am, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I picked up DG's el cheapo 13-CD reissue of "Beethoven/Karajan" the
> other week, mainly because it included his recording of the Grosse
> Fugue, which I hadn't noticed before on CD.
Mark -
> I picked up DG's el cheapo 13-CD reissue of "Beethoven/Karajan" the
> other week, mainly because it included his recording of the Grosse
> Fugue, which I hadn't noticed before on CD.
I picked up a couple of the "Karajan Gold" reissues of these in a used
CD store a few months ago (probably sold to them by someone who knew
that they were about to be reissued). I liked them enough (both
sonically and as performances) to buy the 13 CD set when it was
issued, but I haven't yet listened to much beyond the Missa Solemnis
(which I like very much, better than Karajan's other recordings of
this work that I've heard).
I haven't really compared with his earlier recordings, the EMI with
the Philharmonia, and the DG '63 cycle. I don't own the '77 cycle -
what's the best-sounding transfer of that, if there are multiple
options?
Bill
Mark S
Feb 6, 2012, 1:41:21 PM2/6/12
to
On Feb 6, 10:19 am, wkasimer <wkasi...@comcast.net> wrote:
>I don't own the '77 cycle -
> what's the best-sounding transfer of that, if there are multiple
> options?
>
> Bill
Unfortunately, only the 5, 6 & 9 from the 77 cycle have been reissued
>I don't own the '77 cycle -
> what's the best-sounding transfer of that, if there are multiple
> options?
>
> Bill
in good, updated sound. They're available in one of those twofers as
well (the cover features K standing next to his airplane) on ASIN:
B00008CLNP (amazon has it for $11). All other issues of the 77 set use
the same mastering as the initial Galleria issue, which is a pretty
flat sounding set. There was another issue of the set in some kind of
surround mix that got badly panned.
One reason that I recommend the 77 set is my feeling that K and the
BPO entered into something of a golden age during that period. The EMI
recordings made in this time better represent what the BPO sounded
like in the concert hall, the DG recordings less so, but still in the
ball park.
wkasimer
Feb 6, 2012, 2:14:06 PM2/6/12
to
On Feb 6, 1:41 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately, only the 5, 6 & 9 from the 77 cycle have been reissued
> in good, updated sound.
And unfortunately, those are the three symphonies that interest me the
> Unfortunately, only the 5, 6 & 9 from the 77 cycle have been reissued
> in good, updated sound.
least (I love the 9th, but I've got a zillion recordings I like
already).
Bill
M forever
Feb 6, 2012, 2:30:53 PM2/6/12
to
On Feb 6, 11:43 am, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
the past decades will only affect such parameters as sensitivity to
very high frequencies and therefore probably more tolerance for overly
bright recordings, but I don't think it will affect the perception of
balances and even tone and certainly not musical parameters such as
attack, so I think your observations are valid. You can always do
direct comparisons of the old and the new releases with your current
state of hearing anyway.
I lost track of (and partially, interest in) all those re-issues and
re-masterings since those Beethoven recordings first came out in the
mid-80s. I was fairly disappointed when they first came out because of
the often overly bright and harsh sound which didn't reflect the way
the orchestra sounded back then well - I had heard most of the live
concerts which immediately preceded these (studio) recordings, and
live, the orchestra sounded much more like the '77 recordings - as far
as tone and color are concerned, not so much balances which can be
fairly artificial at times in both cycles.
Yes, the 80s performances which I heard live were in some moments a
little rougher-edged, a little less polished and rounded off than the
'77 recordings, similar to most of Karajan's work in his last years
when he, BTW, started conducting with his eyes open again and
interfacing more with the orchestra, allowing them more room and
spontaneity rather than just guiding them from his removed mystical
spot on the podium like before.
I just finished re-reading the highly interesting Karajan memoirs of
Wolfgang Stresemann who was the managing director of the BP from the
late 50s to the late 70s and who was called out of retirement for two
years in the mid-80s when his unlucky successor Peter Girth had been
crushed by the many collisions between Karajan and the orchestra.
Stresemann and Karajan had a somewhat distanced, at times problematic
relationship, but Stresemann was very skillful at handling the many
quirks and sometimes unpredictable and unfathomable behavior of the
"sun king". The memoirs appear to me to be very fair and balanced, at
the same time critical but also respectful for the musical
achievements.
He also discusses Karajan's recordings in detail and that reminded me
that the recordings were made with a completely different goal from
what many listeners like myself expect: they try to reflect Karajan's
"ideal" vision of the music rather than a "realistic" representation
of a live concert. For me, an ideal recording is one which lays out
the orchestra in front of me just like it sounds like heard in a live
concert in a good hall from a good seat. Karajan wasn't concerned with
that "realism", he wanted the recording to sound like his inner vision
of the music. Which sometimes makes the recordings sound rather odd
and "unrealistic" I guess, but then sometimes, they have something
ideal and timeless to them, like the '77 recordings.
Interestingly though, in these memoirs which were written a few years
after Karajan's death, Stresemann actually predicted that the memory
of Karajan and his work would fade rather quickly and more than it
turned out to be the case. Not because he didn't like his work in
general - like I said, his assessment is critical, but very fair and
balanced - but because he thought that most of the interest in
Karajan's recordings was more interest in the colorful and enigmatic
media star than in the recordings themselves and that at least that
part of the interest would die with the person.
Part of his prediction did come true though, namely that interest in
the videos which Karajan spent most of his last decade working on to
perpetuate his memory (he called that his "Vermächtnis" which means
legacy or bequest) would wane - and I think it did, as interest in the
media star waned. But people are still listening to and discussing his
recordings.
herman
Feb 6, 2012, 10:28:27 PM2/6/12
to
On 6 fév, 20:30, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Part of his prediction did come true though, namely that interest in
> the videos which Karajan spent most of his last decade working on to
> perpetuate his memory (he called that his "Vermächtnis" which means
> legacy or bequest) would wane - and I think it did, as interest in the
> media star waned. But people are still listening to and discussing his
> recordings.
Part of this may be that watching concert videos is not all that
> Part of his prediction did come true though, namely that interest in
> the videos which Karajan spent most of his last decade working on to
> perpetuate his memory (he called that his "Vermächtnis" which means
> legacy or bequest) would wane - and I think it did, as interest in the
> media star waned. But people are still listening to and discussing his
> recordings.
interesting. A good audio recording (I mean of a good performance) can
be listened to many times, but in my experience even the best concert
videos soon become a pretty close equivalent of watching paint dry.
Perhaps that's just me.
I think Karajan still moves product in the audio market, considering
he's been gone for, what? almost 25 years now.
Mark S
Feb 6, 2012, 10:47:15 PM2/6/12
to
On Feb 6, 7:28 pm, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 6 fév, 20:30, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Part of his prediction did come true though, namely that interest in
> > the videos which Karajan spent most of his last decade working on to
> > perpetuate his memory (he called that his "Vermächtnis" which means
> > legacy or bequest) would wane - and I think it did, as interest in the
> > media star waned. But people are still listening to and discussing his
> > recordings.
>
> Part of this may be that watching concert videos is not all that
> interesting. A good audio recording (I mean of a good performance) can
> be listened to many times, but in my experience even the best concert
> videos soon become a pretty close equivalent of watching paint dry.
> Perhaps that's just me.
That's part of it, but perhaps the larger part is that portability and
> On 6 fév, 20:30, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Part of his prediction did come true though, namely that interest in
> > the videos which Karajan spent most of his last decade working on to
> > perpetuate his memory (he called that his "Vermächtnis" which means
> > legacy or bequest) would wane - and I think it did, as interest in the
> > media star waned. But people are still listening to and discussing his
> > recordings.
>
> Part of this may be that watching concert videos is not all that
> interesting. A good audio recording (I mean of a good performance) can
> be listened to many times, but in my experience even the best concert
> videos soon become a pretty close equivalent of watching paint dry.
> Perhaps that's just me.
music in small doses is the growth industry in music product, not high-
production-value videos coupled to audiophile recordings. Let's
remember that the iPod didn't come along until well after Karajan died
in 1989, let alone iPhones and other devices that serve as the main
way that people listen to their music these days. Let's also remember
that file sharing and YouTube weren't around when K mapped out his
master plan to preserve his legacy on video, a legacy that was based
in large part in the idea that consumers would PAY for the privilege
of owning that legacy in their personal libraries. Why buy K's Sony
videos these days when you can not only view all of them for free on
YouTube, but when you can also view them on your widescreen TV set up
through the home wireless network that connects your TV/BD player/
gaming console to YouTube and other places where one can view this
legacy for free?
> I think Karajan still moves product in the audio market, considering
> he's been gone for, what? almost 25 years now.
is any indicator. Compare him to Solti - his competition over at Decca
in the day - who seems to have dropped of the map entirely as an
artist worthy of continued exploitation after his death.
M forever
Feb 7, 2012, 12:00:27 AM2/7/12
to
- The image and sound quality on Youtube is still fairly mediocre.
- You would never watch the "Legacy" videos on Youtube because they
are still under copyright!
> > I think Karajan still moves product in the audio market, considering
> > he's been gone for, what? almost 25 years now.
>
> Yes, he still sells pretty well, at least if the rate of his reissues
> is any indicator. Compare him to Solti - his competition over at Decca
> in the day - who seems to have dropped of the map entirely as an
> artist worthy of continued exploitation after his death.
exceptions, are hardly discussed and recommended anymore.
Mark S
Feb 7, 2012, 1:28:19 AM2/7/12
to
damned. They occasionally show up on Classic Arts Showcase on the TV
machine, presumably through a licensing deal.
I own any number of those Legacy videos on VHS, Laserdisc and DVD. I
don't have a working VHS player anymore, my laser player sits in the
garage and the only DVD in the series that I watch with any frequency
is my once-a-year view of the 1987 New Year's Day concert with the
VPO.
There is truth to the observation that it gets rather boring watching
a conductor conduct and an orchestra play on video.
> Compare him to Solti - his competition over at Decca
> > in the day - who seems to have dropped of the map entirely as an
> > artist worthy of continued exploitation after his death.
>
> Yes, interesting thing that. His recordings, with very few notable
> exceptions, are hardly discussed and recommended anymore.
Solti's Verdi, not such a fan of his Wagner, and his Beethoven leaves
everything to be desired.
Gerard
Feb 7, 2012, 7:34:56 AM2/7/12
to
herman <her...@yahoo.com> typed:
separately from the audio recordings on those videos, and that those videos (the
images) were mainly - if not only - about the registration of his image. Wat he
does is "luchtdirigeren". So watching those videos is only interestng for people
who like to _watch_ Karajan.
> A good audio recording (I mean of a good performance) can
> be listened to many times, but in my experience even the best concert
> videos soon become a pretty close equivalent of watching paint dry.
> Perhaps that's just me.
AFAIK his videos were not concert registrations.
> On 6 fév, 20:30, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > Part of his prediction did come true though, namely that interest in
> > the videos which Karajan spent most of his last decade working on to
> > perpetuate his memory (he called that his "Vermächtnis" which means
> > legacy or bequest) would wane - and I think it did, as interest in
> > the media star waned. But people are still listening to and
> > discussing his recordings.
>
> Part of this may be that watching concert videos is not all that
> interesting.
Another part may be that Karajan's video registrations (the images) were made
>
>
> > Part of his prediction did come true though, namely that interest in
> > the videos which Karajan spent most of his last decade working on to
> > perpetuate his memory (he called that his "Vermächtnis" which means
> > legacy or bequest) would wane - and I think it did, as interest in
> > the media star waned. But people are still listening to and
> > discussing his recordings.
>
> Part of this may be that watching concert videos is not all that
> interesting.
separately from the audio recordings on those videos, and that those videos (the
images) were mainly - if not only - about the registration of his image. Wat he
does is "luchtdirigeren". So watching those videos is only interestng for people
who like to _watch_ Karajan.
> A good audio recording (I mean of a good performance) can
> be listened to many times, but in my experience even the best concert
> videos soon become a pretty close equivalent of watching paint dry.
> Perhaps that's just me.
Steve de Mena
Feb 7, 2012, 8:15:27 AM2/7/12
to
On 2/6/12 8:43 AM, Mark S wrote:
> I picked up DG's el cheapo 13-CD reissue of "Beethoven/Karajan" the
> other week, mainly because it included his recording of the Grosse
> Fugue, which I hadn't noticed before on CD.
I got this too. Will have to compare the sound with the other issues,
> I picked up DG's el cheapo 13-CD reissue of "Beethoven/Karajan" the
> other week, mainly because it included his recording of the Grosse
> Fugue, which I hadn't noticed before on CD.
which I think I have all of (the Symphonies). Would be shocked if
there was any new mastering and/or mixing on this new set. Pleasantly
shocked.
The Grosse Fuge was previously available on a German 1993 Belart CD
(405 108-2) I never saw in the U.S. (with the Schubert 9th), the
complete Karajan DG set issues in Japan in his centenary year, and
globally as a download on the DG web site (NLA).
Steve
Steve de Mena
Feb 7, 2012, 8:17:46 AM2/7/12
to
On 2/6/12 10:41 AM, Mark S wrote:
> One reason that I recommend the 77 set is my feeling that K and the
> BPO entered into something of a golden age during that period. The EMI
> recordings made in this time better represent what the BPO sounded
> like in the concert hall, the DG recordings less so, but still in the
> ball park.
I know I'm in the minority here but in my concert hall (my home) I
> One reason that I recommend the 77 set is my feeling that K and the
> BPO entered into something of a golden age during that period. The EMI
> recordings made in this time better represent what the BPO sounded
> like in the concert hall, the DG recordings less so, but still in the
> ball park.
prefer the DG recorded sound of the Philharmonie in the 70s versus the
hazy distant EMI sound. How they sounded in the concert hall is
meaningless to me.
Steve
Steve de Mena
Feb 7, 2012, 8:26:03 AM2/7/12
to
On 2/6/12 11:30 AM, M forever wrote:
> He also discusses Karajan's recordings in detail and that reminded me
> that the recordings were made with a completely different goal from
> what many listeners like myself expect: they try to reflect Karajan's
> "ideal" vision of the music rather than a "realistic" representation
> of a live concert.
I just can NOT understand this.
> He also discusses Karajan's recordings in detail and that reminded me
> that the recordings were made with a completely different goal from
> what many listeners like myself expect: they try to reflect Karajan's
> "ideal" vision of the music rather than a "realistic" representation
> of a live concert.
If Karajan had any true "vision" for the sound of his recordings why
do all the DG Philharmonie recordings sound one way and all the EMI
recordings have a totally different sound perspective? I imagine most
people here would know within a minute of a 70s Karajan recording was
DG or EMI in a blond listening test.
I think the DG recordings reflect the views of Günter Hermanns
(tonmeister) and the Producer (usually Günther Breest?) (I know
Hermanns recorded them all) and EMI had Wolfgang Gülich & Michel Glotz
in the corresponding roles.
Steve
Steve de Mena
Feb 7, 2012, 8:30:15 AM2/7/12
to
On 2/6/12 7:47 PM, Mark S wrote:
> That's part of it, but perhaps the larger part is that portability and
> music in small doses is the growth industry in music product, not high-
> production-value videos coupled to audiophile recordings. Let's
> remember that the iPod didn't come along until well after Karajan died
> in 1989, let alone iPhones and other devices that serve as the main
> way that people listen to their music these days. Let's also remember
> that file sharing and YouTube weren't around when K mapped out his
> master plan to preserve his legacy on video, a legacy that was based
> in large part in the idea that consumers would PAY for the privilege
> of owning that legacy in their personal libraries. Why buy K's Sony
> videos these days when you can not only view all of them for free on
> YouTube,
If Karajan's Sony and/or Unitel videos are on Youtube are they posted
> That's part of it, but perhaps the larger part is that portability and
> music in small doses is the growth industry in music product, not high-
> production-value videos coupled to audiophile recordings. Let's
> remember that the iPod didn't come along until well after Karajan died
> in 1989, let alone iPhones and other devices that serve as the main
> way that people listen to their music these days. Let's also remember
> that file sharing and YouTube weren't around when K mapped out his
> master plan to preserve his legacy on video, a legacy that was based
> in large part in the idea that consumers would PAY for the privilege
> of owning that legacy in their personal libraries. Why buy K's Sony
> videos these days when you can not only view all of them for free on
> YouTube,
illegally and thus subject to takedown? Are they of the same video
and/or audio quality as the original DVD or LD releases?
Steve
Mark S
Feb 7, 2012, 10:06:14 AM2/7/12
to
On Feb 7, 5:30 am, Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:
>
> If Karajan's Sony and/or Unitel videos are on Youtube are they posted
> illegally and thus subject to takedown? Are they of the same video
> and/or audio quality as the original DVD or LD releases?
>
> Steve
I'd think they're subject to take down, and the quality is probably,
>
> If Karajan's Sony and/or Unitel videos are on Youtube are they posted
> illegally and thus subject to takedown? Are they of the same video
> and/or audio quality as the original DVD or LD releases?
>
> Steve
well, YouTube quality, which can't be as good as the hard media.
I wonder if Sony has decided that they'll take the free views over
pursuing taking down the vids as it could lead to an eventual
purchase. They're certainly spending no money advertising these things
these days. It's hard to even know which vids are still in print.
Mark S
Feb 7, 2012, 11:07:29 AM2/7/12
to
> If Karajan's Sony and/or Unitel videos are on Youtube are they posted
> illegally and thus subject to takedown? Are they of the same video
> and/or audio quality as the original DVD or LD releases?
>
> Steve
> illegally and thus subject to takedown? Are they of the same video
> and/or audio quality as the original DVD or LD releases?
>
> Steve
Mark S
Feb 7, 2012, 2:59:49 PM2/7/12
to
On Feb 7, 5:26 am, Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:
>
> If Karajan had any true "vision" for the sound of his recordings why
> do all the DG Philharmonie recordings sound one way and all the EMI
> recordings have a totally different sound perspective? I imagine most
> people here would know within a minute of a 70s Karajan recording was
> DG or EMI in a blond listening test.
Are you suggesting the listening tests were all done by K's wife? :)
>
> If Karajan had any true "vision" for the sound of his recordings why
> do all the DG Philharmonie recordings sound one way and all the EMI
> recordings have a totally different sound perspective? I imagine most
> people here would know within a minute of a 70s Karajan recording was
> DG or EMI in a blond listening test.
She is a blond, after all.
>
> I think the DG recordings reflect the views of Günter Hermanns
> (tonmeister) and the Producer (usually Günther Breest?) (I know
> Hermanns recorded them all) and EMI had Wolfgang Gülich & Michel Glotz
> in the corresponding roles.
However, I seem to recall one of them positing that Karajan was very
unhappy with the sound DG was giving him in the mid-1960s, and that
upon renewal of his contract, he insisted on having final say over the
way his DG recordings were mixed.
I don't remember K having a similar problem with EMI. Maybe he felt
they were doing an acceptable job. Maybe he couldn't make the same
demands on EMI because he couldn't pull an EMI LP off the shelf and
complain about the mix the way he could to the DG execs. Or, maybe K
used EMI as a foil to get his way with DG. Though Ks' early recordings
were for the most part on EMI, he favored DG as his company from the
60s until the end, at least if we go by the number of recordings
issued by DG v EMI. Could be that he was in a position to make demands
of his main record company by always hinting that he could take his
big projects to EMI if DG didn't give him what he wanted. It seems
that DG did the bulk of his orchestral recordings while EMI did a lot
of operas.
I've always thought that DG had some exclusive with K when it came to
Beethoven cycles. I wish the 77 cycle had been an EMI project rather
than DG. His EMI Schubert set from that period has great sound. It
would have been nice to have at least one EMI/BPO/Karajan cycle
available that was recorded after his 63 set.
Message has been deleted
Matthew B. Tepper
Feb 7, 2012, 5:16:37 PM2/7/12
to
Mark S <markst...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:328e679a-0fee-4251-8af1-caa1849158e5
@m5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com:
> I've always thought that DG had some exclusive with K when it came to
> Beethoven cycles.
I assume you mean after the 1950s Philharmonia cycle.
> I wish the 77 cycle had been an EMI project rather than DG. His EMI
> Schubert set from that period has great sound. It would have been nice to
> have at least one EMI/BPO/Karajan cycle available that was recorded after
> his 63 set.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
to be typed in news:328e679a-0fee-4251-8af1-caa1849158e5
@m5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com:
> I've always thought that DG had some exclusive with K when it came to
> Beethoven cycles.
> I wish the 77 cycle had been an EMI project rather than DG. His EMI
> Schubert set from that period has great sound. It would have been nice to
> have at least one EMI/BPO/Karajan cycle available that was recorded after
> his 63 set.
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
M forever
Feb 7, 2012, 5:43:32 PM2/7/12
to
On Feb 7, 3:15 pm, EM <emmemmmemnmme...@gnail.com> wrote:
> M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> - Mon, 6 Feb 2012 11:30:53 -0800 (PST):
>
> EM
Indeed.
> M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> - Mon, 6 Feb 2012 11:30:53 -0800 (PST):
>
> > I just finished re-reading the highly interesting Karajan memoirs of
> > Wolfgang Stresemann
>
> Gustav Stresemann's son, so I read.
> > I just finished re-reading the highly interesting Karajan memoirs of
> > Wolfgang Stresemann
>
>
> EM
Indeed.
Mark S
Feb 8, 2012, 11:08:08 AM2/8/12
to
On Feb 7, 2:16 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following letters
recorded between 1951-55, while Karajan's contract with DG dated from
1959, so any "Beethoven exclusive" that I imagine K may have had with
DG wouldn't have been operational until a few years after the
Philharmonia cycle had been released.
> Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following letters
> to be typed in news:328e679a-0fee-4251-8af1-caa1849158e5
> @m5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com:
>
> > I've always thought that DG had some exclusive with K when it came to
> > Beethoven cycles.
>
> I assume you mean after the 1950s Philharmonia cycle.
>
Yes. I thought that went without saying. The Philharmonia cycle was
> @m5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com:
>
> > I've always thought that DG had some exclusive with K when it came to
> > Beethoven cycles.
>
> I assume you mean after the 1950s Philharmonia cycle.
>
recorded between 1951-55, while Karajan's contract with DG dated from
1959, so any "Beethoven exclusive" that I imagine K may have had with
DG wouldn't have been operational until a few years after the
Philharmonia cycle had been released.
paposhvili
Feb 9, 2012, 10:32:19 AM2/9/12
to
On Feb 6, 10:41 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately, only the 5, 6 & 9 from the 77 cycle have been reissued
> in good, updated sound. They're available in one of those twofers as
> well (the cover features K standing next to his airplane) on ASIN:
> B00008CLNP (amazon has it for $11). All other issues of the 77 set use
> the same mastering as the initial Galleria issue, which is a pretty
> flat sounding set. There was another issue of the set in some kind of
> surround mix that got badly panned.
>
> One reason that I recommend the 77 set is my feeling that K and the
> BPO entered into something of a golden age during that period. The EMI
> recordings made in this time better represent what the BPO sounded
> like in the concert hall, the DG recordings less so, but still in the
> ball park.
I share your passion for the 1977 cycle. The twofer with the 5th, 6th
> Unfortunately, only the 5, 6 & 9 from the 77 cycle have been reissued
> in good, updated sound. They're available in one of those twofers as
> well (the cover features K standing next to his airplane) on ASIN:
> B00008CLNP (amazon has it for $11). All other issues of the 77 set use
> the same mastering as the initial Galleria issue, which is a pretty
> flat sounding set. There was another issue of the set in some kind of
> surround mix that got badly panned.
>
> One reason that I recommend the 77 set is my feeling that K and the
> BPO entered into something of a golden age during that period. The EMI
> recordings made in this time better represent what the BPO sounded
> like in the concert hall, the DG recordings less so, but still in the
> ball park.
& 9th was an improvement over previous anemic transfer, but still
unimpressive.
Fortunately, the complete set WAS remastered in 2008, using the
Eloquence AMSI approach. You can see the label "neu remastered" on the
cover:
http://rateyourmusic.com/release/comp/ludwig_van_beethoven/die_9_symphonien__ouverturen__berliner_philharmoniker_herbert_von_karajan_/
Apparently, this set didn't get much circulation. I had hard time
finding it and finally got my copy in Vienna back in 2008 or 2009.
Mark S
Feb 9, 2012, 11:22:08 AM2/9/12
to
On Feb 9, 7:32 am, paposhvili <paposhv...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I share your passion for the 1977 cycle. The twofer with the 5th, 6th
> & 9th was an improvement over previous anemic transfer, but still
> unimpressive.
>
> Fortunately, the complete set WAS remastered in 2008, using the
> Eloquence AMSI approach. You can see the label "neu remastered" on the
> cover:
>
> http://rateyourmusic.com/release/comp/ludwig_van_beethoven/die_9_symp...
> I share your passion for the 1977 cycle. The twofer with the 5th, 6th
> & 9th was an improvement over previous anemic transfer, but still
> unimpressive.
>
> Fortunately, the complete set WAS remastered in 2008, using the
> Eloquence AMSI approach. You can see the label "neu remastered" on the
> cover:
>
>
> Apparently, this set didn't get much circulation. I had hard time
> finding it and finally got my copy in Vienna back in 2008 or 2009.
I have yet to see a favorable review of that AMSI release.
> Apparently, this set didn't get much circulation. I had hard time
> finding it and finally got my copy in Vienna back in 2008 or 2009.
You own it - is it any good? How does it compare to the Galleria
issue?
herman
Feb 9, 2012, 12:09:35 PM2/9/12
to
On 9 fév, 16:32, paposhvili <paposhv...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Fortunately, the complete set WAS remastered in 2008, using the
> Eloquence AMSI approach.
Not everybody is that happy with AMSI
>
> Fortunately, the complete set WAS remastered in 2008, using the
> Eloquence AMSI approach.
wkasimer
Feb 9, 2012, 12:12:47 PM2/9/12
to
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Box-Ludwig-van/dp/B001DCQI82/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328807476&sr=8-1
Bill
paposhvili
Feb 9, 2012, 12:26:10 PM2/9/12
to
On Feb 9, 8:22 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have yet to see a favorable review of that AMSI release.
Honestly, I haven't seen any reviews yet.
> I have yet to see a favorable review of that AMSI release.
> You own it - is it any good? How does it compare to the Galleria
> issue?
recordings. Hope to listen to it some time soon and report back. I
also own that twofer mentioned earlier as well as an older complete
set which is identical with Galleria issue, I suppose:
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Jos%C3%A9-van-Dam/dp/B000001GBT
Just searched and the Eloquence issue can be ordered from Amazon.de
for only 8 euros: http://www.klassikakzente.de/musik/musikproduktdetail/product/100819/beethoven-9-symphonies-overtures/
Mark S
Feb 9, 2012, 1:04:03 PM2/9/12
to
On Feb 9, 9:12 am, wkasimer <wkasi...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Is the Galleria the same as this one?:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Box-Ludwig-van/dp/B001DCQI...
>
> Is the Galleria the same as this one?:
>
>
> Bill
Yes.
Unfortunately, DG did not take the opportunity to remaster the entire
K Symphony Edition when they reissued it in 2008. I still have that
set in its original, 1991 (?) version.
All of the recordings in that set would benefit from remastering,
especially the Beethoven and Bruckner cycles.
M forever
Feb 9, 2012, 1:13:41 PM2/9/12
to
actually hear the difference between AMSI and non-AMSI, at least not
as far as the "surround enhanced" AMSI portion is concerned.
M forever
Feb 9, 2012, 1:12:41 PM2/9/12
to
On Feb 9, 12:26 pm, paposhvili <paposhv...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Feb 9, 8:22 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I have yet to see a favorable review of that AMSI release.
>
> Honestly, I haven't seen any reviews yet.
>
> > You own it - is it any good? How does it compare to the Galleria
> > issue?
>
> My copy is still factory sealed due to a huge backlog of other new
> recordings. Hope to listen to it some time soon and report back. I
> also own that twofer mentioned earlier as well as an older complete
> set which is identical with Galleria issue, I suppose:http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Jos%C3%A9-van-Dam/dp/B0000...
> On Feb 9, 8:22 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I have yet to see a favorable review of that AMSI release.
>
> Honestly, I haven't seen any reviews yet.
>
> > You own it - is it any good? How does it compare to the Galleria
> > issue?
>
> My copy is still factory sealed due to a huge backlog of other new
> recordings. Hope to listen to it some time soon and report back. I
> also own that twofer mentioned earlier as well as an older complete
>
> Just searched and the Eloquence issue can be ordered from Amazon.de
> for only 8 euros:http://www.klassikakzente.de/musik/musikproduktdetail/product/100819/...
> Just searched and the Eloquence issue can be ordered from Amazon.de
You can also order it from amazon.com for $100.14. Sic!
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Herbert-Von-Karajan/dp/B000WQGPNI
Mark S
Feb 9, 2012, 1:15:48 PM2/9/12
to
On Feb 9, 9:26 am, paposhvili <paposhv...@yahoo.com> wrote:
.
Yeah, but the shipping to the States is another $14, so the cost is
around $29USD for the product + shipping.
.
>
> Just searched and the Eloquence issue can be ordered from Amazon.de
> for only 8 euros:http://www.klassikakzente.de/musik/musikproduktdetail/product/100819/...
> Just searched and the Eloquence issue can be ordered from Amazon.de
Yeah, but the shipping to the States is another $14, so the cost is
around $29USD for the product + shipping.
paposhvili
Feb 9, 2012, 1:20:54 PM2/9/12
to
paposhvili
Feb 9, 2012, 12:58:02 PM2/9/12
to
On Feb 9, 9:12 pm, wkasimer <wkasi...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Is the Galleria the same as this one?:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Box-Ludwig-van/dp/B001DCQI...
> Is the Galleria the same as this one?:
>
This one has the same remastering as the old Karajan Collection issue:
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Jos%C3%A9-van-Dam/dp/B000001GBT
Unfortunately, the same is true for the Bruckner set.
M forever
Feb 9, 2012, 1:26:31 PM2/9/12
to
video which documents what the orchestra and conductor were like in
concert, but a studio production with Karajan's somewhat odd
compositions and insert shots where you can see whole sections
arranged in a long line with backlighting and other odd stuff like
that. To me, these videos didn't get old with repeated watching - they
were already "old" when I watched them the first time.
> > Compare him to Solti - his competition over at Decca
> > > in the day - who seems to have dropped of the map entirely as an
> > > artist worthy of continued exploitation after his death.
>
> > Yes, interesting thing that. His recordings, with very few notable
> > exceptions, are hardly discussed and recommended anymore.
>
> Why is that? Was he simply overrated in his time? I happen to like
> Solti's Verdi, not such a fan of his Wagner, and his Beethoven leaves
> everything to be desired.
"rate" and "rank" music and musicians anyway. Solti's success during
his lifetime was certainly deserved and hard earned. It seems though
that although he was no doubt a very competent and very professional
conductor, he wasn't really that "special" as a musician and he made
up for what he lacked in musical refinement and originality of insight
(of which, I think, he had next to none, he was as completely
conventional and unquestioning as Haitink or any other "mainstream"
conductor) by sheer energy and drive, and he was also an immensely
likeable person.
Solti was also built up and celebrated as a star conductor by his
record companies, but in his case, it appears as if he was really very
much like his image which was pretty straightforward anyway - none of
the self-stylizing of a Karajan or Bernstein.
Paradoxically though, it appears as if in his case, as the interest in
Solti the person has waned after his death, the interest in his music
making has waned just as much while in Karajan's case, interest in the
person has waned quite a bit after his death and the end of his star
cult, too, but interest in his recorded legacy (I mean in general, not
just the "Legacy" project of his last decade) has not - so what
Stresemann predicted seems to apply more to Solti than Karajan. So it
appears that despite all the star cult around and the often very
negative responses to it during his lifetime (and after), there was
more musical substance to begin with than many may want to admit,
while with Solti, what we mostly have is a very good, solid, but not
really outstanding musical personality who owed most of his success to
his personality and charisma of the person, but not so much the actual
music making.
Mark S
Feb 9, 2012, 1:55:48 PM2/9/12
to
On Feb 9, 10:26 am, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>with Solti, what we mostly have is a very good, solid, but not
> really outstanding musical personality who owed most of his success to
> his personality and charisma of the person, but not so much the actual
> music making.
I doubt his career would have amounted to much had he not be picked to
>with Solti, what we mostly have is a very good, solid, but not
> really outstanding musical personality who owed most of his success to
> his personality and charisma of the person, but not so much the actual
> music making.
record the first studio Ring.
Decca hyped him to the stars. Let's remember that Kna had already done
a few excerpts of Wagner on Decca, and he was famous for the Rings he
conducted at Bayreuth in the 50s. His Ring was recorded at Bayreuth by
Decca and never issued (until Testament did it a few years ago), while
Karajan's Bayreuth Ring was recorded by EMI and never issued outside
of a few excerpts. The classical world would have been happy to have a
studio Ring from either of those noted conductors, either of who was a
logical choice.
Solti, on the other hand, was something of an unknown as a conductor,
and a novice as a Wagner conductor (he hadn't ever conducted
Gotterdammerung before he made the Decca recording). Decca did that
Walkure excerpt with him, of course, but picking him to do the Ring
was a stretch. Decca basically had to promote Solti as a conductor
just to hopefully recoup their costs on the Ring in less than 50
years. That meant scheduling other projects for him. Otherwise, the
question would be asked, "if he's such a great conductor, why hasn't
he done anything else?"
This over-simplifies the Solti case, of course. For me, his
interpretation of the Ring hasn't sat well over the years because - as
you say - his music making wasn't all that special. His Ring is saved
by the great cast of singers, the orchestra and the recording itself.
Solti is something of the weak link in the set, inasmuch as a
conductor in charge of such a recording can ever be considered to be a
weak link.
wagnerfan
Feb 9, 2012, 2:09:02 PM2/9/12
to
recorded by Decca in 1951 - the only piece issued by Testament was the
Gotterdammerung. I have never seen any other part of that Kna Ring
issued in any format. OTOH the Karajan Rheingold and Siegfried also
reocrded at Bayreuth in 1951 have been issued along with the Walkure
Act Three (I think i may have the Act One Walkure as well). Wagner
fan
Mark S
Feb 9, 2012, 2:25:47 PM2/9/12
to
On Feb 9, 11:09 am, wagnerfan <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just a matter of clarification- although a complete Ring with Kna was
> recorded by Decca in 1951 - the only piece issued by Testament was the
> Gotterdammerung. I have never seen any other part of that Kna Ring
> issued in any format. OTOH the Karajan Rheingold and Siegfried also
> reocrded at Bayreuth in 1951 have been issued along with the Walkure
> Act Three (I think i may have the Act One Walkure as well). Wagner
> fan
You're right. I was thinking of the Keilberth Ring on Testament. I do
> Just a matter of clarification- although a complete Ring with Kna was
> recorded by Decca in 1951 - the only piece issued by Testament was the
> Gotterdammerung. I have never seen any other part of that Kna Ring
> issued in any format. OTOH the Karajan Rheingold and Siegfried also
> reocrded at Bayreuth in 1951 have been issued along with the Walkure
> Act Three (I think i may have the Act One Walkure as well). Wagner
> fan
own that Gotterd, though. Pretty great recording.
BTW - I met with Stewart Brown at both MIDEM and later in NYC right
before the Gotterd was issued. He said at the time that he was trying
to negotiate the release of the entire Kna Ring from Decca AND the EMI
Ring with Karajan.
I guess those negotiations weren't successful.
Matthew B. Tepper
Feb 9, 2012, 2:41:45 PM2/9/12
to
Considering how I've been known to complain when compilers of Grammy stats go
out of their way to avoid mentioning him, I suppose this represents progress:
http://news.yahoo.com/video/whoknew-19124225
out of their way to avoid mentioning him, I suppose this represents progress:
http://news.yahoo.com/video/whoknew-19124225
Mark S
Feb 9, 2012, 2:42:49 PM2/9/12
to
On Feb 9, 9:26 am, paposhvili <paposhv...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Feb 9, 8:22 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I have yet to see a favorable review of that AMSI release.
>
> Honestly, I haven't seen any reviews yet.
>
> > You own it - is it any good? How does it compare to the Galleria
> > issue?
>
> My copy is still factory sealed due to a huge backlog of other new
> recordings. Hope to listen to it some time soon and report back. I
> also own that twofer mentioned earlier as well as an older complete
> set which is identical with Galleria issue, I suppose:http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Jos%C3%A9-van-Dam/dp/B0000...
>
> > I have yet to see a favorable review of that AMSI release.
>
> Honestly, I haven't seen any reviews yet.
>
> > You own it - is it any good? How does it compare to the Galleria
> > issue?
>
> My copy is still factory sealed due to a huge backlog of other new
> recordings. Hope to listen to it some time soon and report back. I
> also own that twofer mentioned earlier as well as an older complete
>
> Just searched and the Eloquence issue can be ordered from Amazon.de
> for only 8 euros:http://www.klassikakzente.de/musik/musikproduktdetail/product/100819/...
> Just searched and the Eloquence issue can be ordered from Amazon.de
The "remastering" on that AMSI release was a conversion of the
existing Galleria mastering into a 5.1 surround sound mix. From what
I've read, there was no remastering done of the basic stereo tracks
from the Galleria mastering, and what this set really needs is a
remastering of the basic 2-track mix. So I can't imagine that the AMSI
sound is going to be an improvement.
O
Feb 9, 2012, 2:56:19 PM2/9/12
to
In article
<9315002a-b1cd-4055...@t24g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
one of the best in the world.
conductors leapfrogging each other with new recordings of the
Symphonies. The other two, of course, were Bernstein and Tennstedt,
both of whose Mahler is still treasured by many. Not much interest in
Solti's Mahler lately, save maybe for the 8th Symphony.
-Owen
<9315002a-b1cd-4055...@t24g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
Mark S <markst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Feb 9, 10:26 am, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >with Solti, what we mostly have is a very good, solid, but not
> > really outstanding musical personality who owed most of his success to
> > his personality and charisma of the person, but not so much the actual
> > music making.
>
> I doubt his career would have amounted to much had he not be picked to
> record the first studio Ring.
It also helped him a great deal that the orchestra in front of him was
> On Feb 9, 10:26 am, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >with Solti, what we mostly have is a very good, solid, but not
> > really outstanding musical personality who owed most of his success to
> > his personality and charisma of the person, but not so much the actual
> > music making.
>
> I doubt his career would have amounted to much had he not be picked to
> record the first studio Ring.
one of the best in the world.
>
> Decca hyped him to the stars. Let's remember that Kna had already done
> a few excerpts of Wagner on Decca, and he was famous for the Rings he
> conducted at Bayreuth in the 50s. His Ring was recorded at Bayreuth by
> Decca and never issued (until Testament did it a few years ago), while
> Karajan's Bayreuth Ring was recorded by EMI and never issued outside
> of a few excerpts. The classical world would have been happy to have a
> studio Ring from either of those noted conductors, either of who was a
> logical choice.
>
> Solti, on the other hand, was something of an unknown as a conductor,
> and a novice as a Wagner conductor (he hadn't ever conducted
> Gotterdammerung before he made the Decca recording). Decca did that
> Walkure excerpt with him, of course, but picking him to do the Ring
> was a stretch. Decca basically had to promote Solti as a conductor
> just to hopefully recoup their costs on the Ring in less than 50
> years. That meant scheduling other projects for him. Otherwise, the
> question would be asked, "if he's such a great conductor, why hasn't
> he done anything else?"
>
> This over-simplifies the Solti case, of course. For me, his
> interpretation of the Ring hasn't sat well over the years because - as
> you say - his music making wasn't all that special. His Ring is saved
> by the great cast of singers, the orchestra and the recording itself.
> Solti is something of the weak link in the set, inasmuch as a
> conductor in charge of such a recording can ever be considered to be a
> weak link.
Back in the early 70's, Solti was one of the three great Mahler
> Decca hyped him to the stars. Let's remember that Kna had already done
> a few excerpts of Wagner on Decca, and he was famous for the Rings he
> conducted at Bayreuth in the 50s. His Ring was recorded at Bayreuth by
> Decca and never issued (until Testament did it a few years ago), while
> Karajan's Bayreuth Ring was recorded by EMI and never issued outside
> of a few excerpts. The classical world would have been happy to have a
> studio Ring from either of those noted conductors, either of who was a
> logical choice.
>
> Solti, on the other hand, was something of an unknown as a conductor,
> and a novice as a Wagner conductor (he hadn't ever conducted
> Gotterdammerung before he made the Decca recording). Decca did that
> Walkure excerpt with him, of course, but picking him to do the Ring
> was a stretch. Decca basically had to promote Solti as a conductor
> just to hopefully recoup their costs on the Ring in less than 50
> years. That meant scheduling other projects for him. Otherwise, the
> question would be asked, "if he's such a great conductor, why hasn't
> he done anything else?"
>
> This over-simplifies the Solti case, of course. For me, his
> interpretation of the Ring hasn't sat well over the years because - as
> you say - his music making wasn't all that special. His Ring is saved
> by the great cast of singers, the orchestra and the recording itself.
> Solti is something of the weak link in the set, inasmuch as a
> conductor in charge of such a recording can ever be considered to be a
> weak link.
conductors leapfrogging each other with new recordings of the
Symphonies. The other two, of course, were Bernstein and Tennstedt,
both of whose Mahler is still treasured by many. Not much interest in
Solti's Mahler lately, save maybe for the 8th Symphony.
-Owen
paposhvili
Feb 9, 2012, 2:56:59 PM2/9/12
to
On Feb 9, 11:42 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The "remastering" on that AMSI release was a conversion of the
> existing Galleria mastering into a 5.1 surround sound mix. From what
> I've read, there was no remastering done of the basic stereo tracks
> from the Galleria mastering, and what this set really needs is a
> remastering of the basic 2-track mix. So I can't imagine that the AMSI
> sound is going to be an improvement.
It is a shame.
> The "remastering" on that AMSI release was a conversion of the
> existing Galleria mastering into a 5.1 surround sound mix. From what
> I've read, there was no remastering done of the basic stereo tracks
> from the Galleria mastering, and what this set really needs is a
> remastering of the basic 2-track mix. So I can't imagine that the AMSI
> sound is going to be an improvement.
What is the rationale for using surround sound mix when the final
result is still 2-track stereo?
Mark S
Feb 9, 2012, 2:59:06 PM2/9/12
to
Gerard
Feb 9, 2012, 4:33:33 PM2/9/12
to
paposhvili <papos...@yahoo.com> typed:
A selling argument.
But the result is diffuse (compared to the original stereo recording) stereo
sound.
But the result is diffuse (compared to the original stereo recording) stereo
sound.
M forever
Feb 9, 2012, 6:34:02 PM2/9/12
to
and then decode them again to 4. There are a number of formats which
use that principle called matrixing such as the various quadrophonic
formats and Dolby Stereo, called Dolby Surround or ProLogic in the
consumer world. The principle is simple: when you have two channels L
and R and the signal is the same in both, you hear the signal as
coming from the middle, provided you are sitting at equal distance to
both speakers. That's called a "phantom center". You can also extract
the signal components which are the same and route them to a "hard
center", so you get 3 channels out of 2: L, C, R. You can add another
channel by using the same principle - putting that channel into L and
R, but this time, shifting the phase 180 degrees before putting it
into one of the two channels (typically the right). So when the
decoder "sees" that L and R are the same but 180 degrees out of phase,
it subtracts those signal components and routes them to to fourth
channel, typically a mono surround.
So you take 2 channels and compare them and when L and R are the same,
it's C; when L and R are the same but 180 degrees out of phase, it's
surround. When L and R are different, it's L and R. Of course, the
matrix doesn't "switch" between the 3 scenarios, all 4 channels can be
on at the same time as only common signal components are extracted. So
L and R can contain a complex signal waveform which contains some
identical elements (=C) and when those get subtracted, the basic
waveform remains, there are no "holes" in the signal.
So you arrive basically at a 4.0 configuration. You can derive a
subwoofer from the front channels by using a crossover and directing
LF signal components to the subwoofer, but there is no discrete
channel for it.
Some newer technologies then take the derived surround and compare it
to what is happening in the remaining L and R signals, and also what
happens right before and after the signal shifts from L and R to
surround and so derive a kind of "educated guess" stereo surround.
That works pretty well, but it's not quite the same as having 5.1
discrete channels.
That principle can be applied to most stereo sources anyway even if
they are not specifically ProLogic encoded as basic mixing and panning
principles still apply - if an engineer wants to mix for 2-channel
stereo and he wants a signal component to come from the C, he will do
exactly the same that the encoding matrix does - put it into L and R
equally. That's what the pan knob on the mixer is for. So it often
comes out OK when played back through a matrix decoder. The same
applies to the surround channel. When you have diffuse elements in the
signal, such as reverb or applause noise, a lot of it ends up in the
surround channel when matrix decoded.
It is not really known what is allegedly so special about AMSI which
is supposed to be played back through a conventional matrix decoder
such as ProLogic, and what is different about it from just playing the
stereo mix and letting the matrix decode it. My guess is that they
introduce tiny phase shifts in parts of the material in order to steer
those parts more predictably to the surround channel. So they probably
take the 2-channel source, matrix decode it, then add elements of the
left and right channel into the decoded surround, then re-encode it
into 2-channels. Or something similar to that. If it yields better
surround sound results than just playing the un-AMSI-fied stereo mix
through the surround decoder, I don't know. It appears though as if
what they do is so minute that when people compare the "reguler" 2-
channel version to the AMSI version (played back on 2 channels), they
don't hear whatever they do to the tracks to make them "more AMSI".
In any case, none of that has anything to do with the tone colors on
the recording. It's really all about channel steering.
M forever
Feb 9, 2012, 6:35:35 PM2/9/12
to
On Feb 9, 2:25 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Feb 9, 11:09 am, wagnerfan <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Just a matter of clarification- although a complete Ring with Kna was
> > recorded by Decca in 1951 - the only piece issued by Testament was the
> > Gotterdammerung. I have never seen any other part of that Kna Ring
> > issued in any format. OTOH the Karajan Rheingold and Siegfried also
> > reocrded at Bayreuth in 1951 have been issued along with the Walkure
> > Act Three (I think i may have the Act One Walkure as well). Wagner
> > fan
>
> You're right. I was thinking of the Keilberth Ring on Testament. I do
> own that Gotterd, though. Pretty great recording.
>
> BTW - I met with Stewart Brown at both MIDEM and later in NYC right
> before the Gotterd
"Gotterd"? What kind of shorthand is that? I have never heard that in
> On Feb 9, 11:09 am, wagnerfan <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Just a matter of clarification- although a complete Ring with Kna was
> > recorded by Decca in 1951 - the only piece issued by Testament was the
> > Gotterdammerung. I have never seen any other part of that Kna Ring
> > issued in any format. OTOH the Karajan Rheingold and Siegfried also
> > reocrded at Bayreuth in 1951 have been issued along with the Walkure
> > Act Three (I think i may have the Act One Walkure as well). Wagner
> > fan
>
> You're right. I was thinking of the Keilberth Ring on Testament. I do
> own that Gotterd, though. Pretty great recording.
>
> BTW - I met with Stewart Brown at both MIDEM and later in NYC right
> before the Gotterd
any professional opera house.
LOL
;-)
M forever
Feb 9, 2012, 6:49:13 PM2/9/12
to
everything together very well, and the singers and orchestra do not
have to "save" anything. Let's not exaggerate. His interpretive
choices may not be spectacularly unusual, but everything he does is
sound and "right". I think that makes this Ring particularly strong
actually. It is very "mainstream" but everything is done "right", too,
so it has held up over time. It's not *his* ego trip, and I think
that's a good thing. Interpretive quirks would have made it age pretty
quickly. So that is something that he is justly famous for.
I also think you are overstating just how much Decca "pushed" him.
They sure did, but as with Karajan or Bernstein or other stars, if
there hadn't been enough substance, they wouldn't have had much luck
with that anyway. There were plenty of others they could have pushed,
too. It's not as if they had no other choice but to make Solti their
big recording star. He was already quite well known by the time he did
Rheingold, from his work in Frankfurt and his guest conducting which
was already quite active in the mid-50s, and he was at Covent Garden
before the rest of the Ring was underway. He reputedly raised the
standards there quite significantly.
So while I think there is no reason to hype him just as much as he was
hyped during his lifetime, I think there is no reason to totally shoot
him down either. He was a very competent and energetic conductor, and
a charismatic personality, and that plus his hard work earned him the
success he had. That doesn't make him one of "the greatest"
conductors, but he still had more to offer than many others.
Oscar
Feb 9, 2012, 7:03:12 PM2/9/12
to
On Feb 9, 3:49 pm, M forever wrote:
>
> So while I think there is no reason to hype him just as much as he was
> hyped during his lifetime, I think there is no reason to totally shoot
> him down either. He was a very competent and energetic conductor, and
> a charismatic personality, and that plus his hard work earned him the
> success he had. That doesn't make him one of "the greatest"
> conductors, but he still had more to offer than many others.
What do you think of his 1968 Mahler 3 recording with LSO and Helen
>
> So while I think there is no reason to hype him just as much as he was
> hyped during his lifetime, I think there is no reason to totally shoot
> him down either. He was a very competent and energetic conductor, and
> a charismatic personality, and that plus his hard work earned him the
> success he had. That doesn't make him one of "the greatest"
> conductors, but he still had more to offer than many others.
Watts?
Bob Harper
Feb 9, 2012, 8:09:22 PM2/9/12
to
On 2/9/12 11:41 AM, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> Considering how I've been known to complain when compilers of Grammy stats go
> out of their way to avoid mentioning him, I suppose this represents progress:
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/video/whoknew-19124225
>
Hm. When he's characterized as "someone whose name you've probably never
> Considering how I've been known to complain when compilers of Grammy stats go
> out of their way to avoid mentioning him, I suppose this represents progress:
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/video/whoknew-19124225
>
heard" (true as that may be for the general public), I'm not sure how
much progress that really represents :(
Bob Harper
Steve de Mena
Feb 10, 2012, 2:24:13 PM2/10/12
to
On 2/9/12 7:32 AM, paposhvili wrote:
> Fortunately, the complete set WAS remastered in 2008, using the
> Fortunately, the complete set WAS remastered in 2008, using the
> Eloquence AMSI approach. You can see the label "neu remastered" on the
> cover:
>
> http://rateyourmusic.com/release/comp/ludwig_van_beethoven/die_9_symphonien__ouverturen__berliner_philharmoniker_herbert_von_karajan_/
> cover:
>
>
> Apparently, this set didn't get much circulation. I had hard time
> finding it and finally got my copy in Vienna back in 2008 or 2009.
Still available today at Amazon DE and US.
> Apparently, this set didn't get much circulation. I had hard time
> finding it and finally got my copy in Vienna back in 2008 or 2009.
Steve
Steve de Mena
Feb 10, 2012, 2:26:18 PM2/10/12
to
Steve
M forever
Feb 10, 2012, 2:28:26 PM2/10/12
to
>
> Or $26 from Amazon US Marketplace seller
But if you order from amazon.com, you get FREE Super Saver Shipping!
> Or $26 from Amazon US Marketplace seller
Steve de Mena
Feb 11, 2012, 8:22:17 AM2/11/12
to
On 2/10/12 11:28 AM, M forever wrote:
>>> You can also order it from amazon.com for $100.14. Sic!
>>
>>> http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Herbert-Von-Karajan/dp/B00...
>>
>> Or $26 from Amazon US Marketplace seller
>
> But if you order from amazon.com, you get FREE Super Saver Shipping!
I usually see the "Amazon Prime" notice instead.
>>> You can also order it from amazon.com for $100.14. Sic!
>>
>>> http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Herbert-Von-Karajan/dp/B00...
>>
>> Or $26 from Amazon US Marketplace seller
>
> But if you order from amazon.com, you get FREE Super Saver Shipping!
Unrelated, but for other Amazon Prime customers out there, did you
know you can add up to four additional "family" members to your
account and give them full Amazon Prime (free 2-day) privileges.
http://amzn.to/wizkhQ "Sharing Amazon Prime Benefits"
There was no requirement when I did this for the other 4 accounts to
be at my address (none of them are).
Steve
Mark S
Feb 12, 2012, 7:53:13 PM2/12/12
to
On Feb 6, 10:19 am, wkasimer <wkasi...@comcast.net> wrote:
>I haven't yet listened to much beyond the Missa Solemnis
> (which I like very much, better than Karajan's other recordings of
> this work that I've heard).
I just gave a listen to this 1985 recording, a recording that I
somehow missed and was hearing for the first time today.
It's definitely different than Ks earlier versions. This one is much
more rough-and-tumble, even a bit raw. it's certainly faster as it
fits on a single CD. There are any number of advantages to this
approach, and I did find myself smiling at the uncluttered and
unmessed with nature of the proceedings.
That said, the recorded sound is both strange and frustrating. I don't
get that this has been remastered a la the Karajan Gold versions of
the symphonies. The recording is top heavy, bottom shy and a bit
harsh. Some of the perspectives are plain old weird - the choir sounds
like there was a small group of choristers in the foreground who were
on different mics from the main group, and that rather destroys the
concept of the choir having a homogeneous sound. The perspective is
also rather flat, and this gets frustrating when one gets to the end
of a movement like the "Gloria," where the finally chord is sung and
released, and a wonderful halo of natural-sounding reverb is heard
that was no where to be found in the entire movement that proceeded
it. The Vienna Singverein, however, has never sounded better than they
do here. They have always come off to me as an amateur group that
produced a rather thin sound for all their numbers (there are up to
230 people in the group), and that had a love-hate relationship with
things like good intonation. I don't get that it did them any good at
all as a vocal group to be under Karajan's direction for the better
part of 40 years, but they're very accomplished here.
What can I say about the solo quartet? The women are OK, not stellar.
The tenor - Vinson Cole - sounds like the best available choral
scholar that the Presbyterians could muster the day the recording was
made, while Jose van Dam is but a shadow of his former self, totally
lacking in the lower register (and putting me in mind of an opera
director I worked with who once remarked to a bass with a similar
absence of low notes that he would "need to scrape your heel on the
floor for that note.").
I think I would still go with his earlier effort on DG with Janowita,
Ludwig, Wunderlich and Berry, though that set also has its drawbacks.
Perhaps Ks' best Missa solemnis is the video version he did for DG
that was taped live at the 1979 Salzburg Easter Festival. That one
seems to be a good blend of live-performance energy and Ks noted knack
for nuance. It also features the under recorded tenor Eric Tappy, who
retired in 1982.
>I haven't yet listened to much beyond the Missa Solemnis
> (which I like very much, better than Karajan's other recordings of
> this work that I've heard).
I just gave a listen to this 1985 recording, a recording that I
somehow missed and was hearing for the first time today.
It's definitely different than Ks earlier versions. This one is much
more rough-and-tumble, even a bit raw. it's certainly faster as it
fits on a single CD. There are any number of advantages to this
approach, and I did find myself smiling at the uncluttered and
unmessed with nature of the proceedings.
That said, the recorded sound is both strange and frustrating. I don't
get that this has been remastered a la the Karajan Gold versions of
the symphonies. The recording is top heavy, bottom shy and a bit
harsh. Some of the perspectives are plain old weird - the choir sounds
like there was a small group of choristers in the foreground who were
on different mics from the main group, and that rather destroys the
concept of the choir having a homogeneous sound. The perspective is
also rather flat, and this gets frustrating when one gets to the end
of a movement like the "Gloria," where the finally chord is sung and
released, and a wonderful halo of natural-sounding reverb is heard
that was no where to be found in the entire movement that proceeded
it. The Vienna Singverein, however, has never sounded better than they
do here. They have always come off to me as an amateur group that
produced a rather thin sound for all their numbers (there are up to
230 people in the group), and that had a love-hate relationship with
things like good intonation. I don't get that it did them any good at
all as a vocal group to be under Karajan's direction for the better
part of 40 years, but they're very accomplished here.
What can I say about the solo quartet? The women are OK, not stellar.
The tenor - Vinson Cole - sounds like the best available choral
scholar that the Presbyterians could muster the day the recording was
made, while Jose van Dam is but a shadow of his former self, totally
lacking in the lower register (and putting me in mind of an opera
director I worked with who once remarked to a bass with a similar
absence of low notes that he would "need to scrape your heel on the
floor for that note.").
I think I would still go with his earlier effort on DG with Janowita,
Ludwig, Wunderlich and Berry, though that set also has its drawbacks.
Perhaps Ks' best Missa solemnis is the video version he did for DG
that was taped live at the 1979 Salzburg Easter Festival. That one
seems to be a good blend of live-performance energy and Ks noted knack
for nuance. It also features the under recorded tenor Eric Tappy, who
retired in 1982.
M forever
Feb 12, 2012, 10:15:04 PM2/12/12
to
went to the live performance preceding it and remember being very
impressed by the sheer richness and beauty produced by the choir and
orchestra. I do not have a specific recollection of the musical
quality as the MS was a little beyond my musical grasp at the time.
I just listened to Kyrie and Gloria and I can confirm your impressions
about the sound, which is worse even than the typical Karajan
recordings from the period, e.g. the 9th. It really is very narrow and
congested, very bright and there is little depth and little bass. It
sounds terrible.
Interestingly, Stresemann wrote in the previously mentioned memoirs
that he thought Karajan never really got "into" the MS until this last
performance (the one I went to) which he remembers as being musically
very impressive. It is hard to hear much of that in this strange
studio recording.
Mark S
Feb 12, 2012, 11:49:26 PM2/12/12
to
on DG. A real surprise and something of a revelation...plus, the
recording features two of my "favorite" singers - Jessye Norman and
Placido.
M forever
Feb 13, 2012, 12:22:06 AM2/13/12
to
they have it in the library network (yes, we have a library network
here in MA, how very socialist...), so I will check it out. And then
check it out.
herman
Feb 13, 2012, 3:14:21 AM2/13/12
to
On 13 fév, 04:15, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It really is very narrow and
> congested, very bright and there is little depth and little bass. It
> sounds terrible.
I keep wondering why DG consistently did this. What was the idea
> It really is very narrow and
> congested, very bright and there is little depth and little bass. It
> sounds terrible.
behind this practice to suck all the living sonorities out of their
recordings? And it's not just the orchestral catalogue; the same
applies to many of their pianists whose records do not sound one bit
like the way they sound live.
Mark S
Feb 13, 2012, 10:44:06 AM2/13/12
to
would give their eye teeth to be on DGs roster when the label
consistently made some the worst-sounding recordings in the industry?
Matthew B. Tepper
Feb 13, 2012, 3:52:48 PM2/13/12
to
Mark S <markst...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:2761f259-485c-4a08-ba44-f6de8d18e469
@p12g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:
There must be $ome reason.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
letters to be typed in news:2761f259-485c-4a08-ba44-f6de8d18e469
@p12g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Mark S
Feb 13, 2012, 10:51:09 PM2/13/12
to
Just listened to the 4 & 7 in this set, and I have to say - wow. Just,
wow!
I was particularly pleased with the 7th, which I have always found to
be problematic for K. This performance is on fire. The finale is
unbelievable.
Who knew that such exciting performances were buried on these discs?
Looks like I should have given that Karajan Gold release a listen
those many years ago.
BTW - the natural-sounding acoustic on these symphony discs is some of
the best I've ever heard for K on DG. They're as good as the Missa
solemnis enclosed in the box is a disaster.
wow!
I was particularly pleased with the 7th, which I have always found to
be problematic for K. This performance is on fire. The finale is
unbelievable.
Who knew that such exciting performances were buried on these discs?
Looks like I should have given that Karajan Gold release a listen
those many years ago.
BTW - the natural-sounding acoustic on these symphony discs is some of
the best I've ever heard for K on DG. They're as good as the Missa
solemnis enclosed in the box is a disaster.
Mark S
Feb 21, 2012, 10:49:55 AM2/21/12
to
little short on repeats in the 6th, and of course, no repeat in the
Finale of the 5th.
I continue to be pleasantly surprised by the recorded sound on these
discs. For once, the BPO sounds like a real orchestra on a DG
recording. I'm sort of kicking myself for not having picked up the
Karajan Gold issue when it was released in 1993. That's 19 years that
I could have been listening to what is an impressive cycle, but that I
wrote off based on the harsh sound of the initial CD release.
I may be coming around to thinking this set surpasses the 1977 cycle.
It
depends on the 9th, which is particularly strong in the 77 cycle. The
vocal
line-up in the 1984 cycle isn't encouraging.
M forever
Feb 21, 2012, 1:48:10 PM2/21/12
to
On Feb 21, 10:49 am, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Feb 13, 7:51 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Just listened to the 4 & 7 in this set, and I have to say - wow. Just,
> > wow!
>
> > I was particularly pleased with the 7th, which I have always found to
> > be problematic for K. This performance is on fire. The finale is
> > unbelievable.
>
> > Who knew that such exciting performances were buried on these discs?
> > Looks like I should have given that Karajan Gold release a listen
> > those many years ago.
>
> > BTW - the natural-sounding acoustic on these symphony discs is some of
> > the best I've ever heard for K on DG. They're as good as the Missa
> > solemnis enclosed in the box is a disaster.
>
> Making my way through the CD of 5 & 6, and it's another winner. A
> little short on repeats in the 6th, and of course, no repeat in the
> Finale of the 5th.
According to Stresemann, Karajan said that he didn't take the repeat
> On Feb 13, 7:51 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Just listened to the 4 & 7 in this set, and I have to say - wow. Just,
> > wow!
>
> > I was particularly pleased with the 7th, which I have always found to
> > be problematic for K. This performance is on fire. The finale is
> > unbelievable.
>
> > Who knew that such exciting performances were buried on these discs?
> > Looks like I should have given that Karajan Gold release a listen
> > those many years ago.
>
> > BTW - the natural-sounding acoustic on these symphony discs is some of
> > the best I've ever heard for K on DG. They're as good as the Missa
> > solemnis enclosed in the box is a disaster.
>
> Making my way through the CD of 5 & 6, and it's another winner. A
> little short on repeats in the 6th, and of course, no repeat in the
> Finale of the 5th.
in the third movement of the Pastorale because of the tricky wind soli
in that movement, it was "too nerve-wrecking" for him to "go through
that" twice in a row...
> I continue to be pleasantly surprised by the recorded sound on these
> discs. For once, the BPO sounds like a real orchestra on a DG
> recording. I'm sort of kicking myself for not having picked up the
> Karajan Gold issue when it was released in 1993. That's 19 years that
> I could have been listening to what is an impressive cycle, but that I
> wrote off based on the harsh sound of the initial CD release.
>
> I may be coming around to thinking this set surpasses the 1977 cycle.
> It
> depends on the 9th, which is particularly strong in the 77 cycle. The
> vocal
> line-up in the 1984 cycle isn't encouraging.
since it features your two favorite singers!
Mark S
Feb 21, 2012, 2:50:43 PM2/21/12
to
On Feb 21, 10:48 am, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> You favorite recording of the 9th then must be Böhm's last recording
> since it features your two favorite singers!
You got the conductor and label right, but my fav Beethoven 9 is
>
> You favorite recording of the 9th then must be Böhm's last recording
> since it features your two favorite singers!
Böhm's first DG recording from his Vienna cycle. The singers in that
version - Gwyneth Jones, Tatiana Troyanos, Jess Thomas and Karl
Riddersbusch - are tough to beat...and the choir is unsurpassed.
Matthew�B.�Tepper
Feb 21, 2012, 3:56:58 PM2/21/12
to
Mark S <markst...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:c0b090bc-f196-45ea-88e4-a4aabaeed2f2
@s9g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:
>> You favorite recording of the 9th then must be B�hm's last recording
>> since it features your two favorite singers!
>
> You got the conductor and label right, but my fav Beethoven 9 is
> B�hm's first DG recording from his Vienna cycle. The singers in that
>
> You got the conductor and label right, but my fav Beethoven 9 is
> version - Gwyneth Jones, Tatiana Troyanos, Jess Thomas and Karl
> Riddersbusch - are tough to beat...and the choir is unsurpassed.
Weingartner/Vienna for me!
> Riddersbusch - are tough to beat...and the choir is unsurpassed.
M forever
Feb 21, 2012, 3:31:46 PM2/21/12
to
although I generally like the cycle. The 6th is one of my favorites.
What about Bernstein's DG recording (Jones, Schwarz, Kollo, Moll)? I
think the soloists are really good on that one, too. I also like the
singers in Masur's first (analog) cycle, Tomowa-Sintow, Burmeister,
Schreier, Adam. The choir is also very good in that recording.
Mark S
Feb 21, 2012, 6:06:34 PM2/21/12
to
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