Correct Pronunciation of Celibidache?
Jarl Sigurd
differently. What is the correct pronunciation for
his name?
Jarl Sigurd
to listen to a symphony composed by Jarl Sigurd
visit: http://geocities.com/Paris/Lights/3333
John Harkness
Molasses. the Bach is silent
John Harkness
Paul Kintzele
Jarl Sigurd wrote:
>
> Every CD Store I go to pronounces Celibidache's name
> differently. What is the correct pronunciation for
> his name?
I started a thread on this a few months ago. There wasn't a perfect
consensus, but most responses indicated that you pronounced it as if it
were Italian: chell-ee-bee-DOCK-ay. In the rehearsal disc coupled with
his recently released EMI Bruckner 9, Celibidache says his own name
(twice actually) at one point, and it sounds more or less like this
(though the vowels are a little more muted, more like: chell-ih-
bih-DOCK-uh).
Paul
samir golescu
On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Paul Kintzele wrote:
> I started a thread on this a few months ago. There wasn't a perfect
> consensus, but most responses indicated that you pronounced it as if it
> were Italian: chell-ee-bee-DOCK-ay. In the rehearsal disc coupled with
> his recently released EMI Bruckner 9, Celibidache says his own name
> (twice actually) at one point, and it sounds more or less like this
> (though the vowels are a little more muted, more like: chell-ih-
> bih-DOCK-uh).
Paul, I can understand why you don't take me as an authority in what
regards the "axiological spissitude" of the HIP phenomenon, but I cannot
understand why you don't take us (George M. & moi) as authorities in how
"Celibidache" is to be pronounced.
Chel-ih-bih is OK but (not because I'd try to flatter Mr Tepper)
substitute DOCK with DUCK and AY with a simple "(k)e", like in "CArrot".
Chel-ih-bih-dah-keh!
(-;
Alain Dagher
Jarl Sigurd wrote:
> Every CD Store I go to pronounces Celibidache's name
> differently. What is the correct pronunciation for
> his name?
'shär-l&-t&n
cheers,
Alain
samir golescu
Oh, Mr. Smartalaic, wrong thread. The discussion on Gould died a long time
ago... (0-:
Simon Roberts
: On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Paul Kintzele wrote:
: > I started a thread on this a few months ago. There wasn't a perfect
: > consensus, but most responses indicated that you pronounced it as if it
: > were Italian: chell-ee-bee-DOCK-ay. In the rehearsal disc coupled with
: > his recently released EMI Bruckner 9, Celibidache says his own name
: > (twice actually) at one point, and it sounds more or less like this
: > (though the vowels are a little more muted, more like: chell-ih-
: > bih-DOCK-uh).
: Paul, I can understand why you don't take me as an authority in what
: regards the "axiological spissitude" of the HIP phenomenon, but I cannot
: understand why you don't take us (George M. & moi) as authorities in how
: "Celibidache" is to be pronounced.
Over Celibidache himself? This takes spissitude to new heights!
Simon
samir golescu
On 28 Sep 2000, Simon Roberts wrote:
> samir golescu (gol...@students.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>
> : Paul, I can understand why you don't take me as an authority in what
> : regards the "axiological spissitude" of the HIP phenomenon, but I cannot
> : understand why you don't take us (George M. & moi) as authorities in how
> : "Celibidache" is to be pronounced.
>
> Over Celibidache himself? This takes spissitude to new heights!
Spissitude-schmissitude, have you considered that, when pronouncing his
own name, Celibidache might have been masticating a plum in his right
cheek, or might have had a tooth-pain or something? (-:
Now seriously, in Romanian rules of pronunciation, even for names, are
very simple and they do *not* vary as they do in English. There is only
one way to pronounce Celibidache and one does not have to get a PhD before
knowing it. That Celibidache was not 100% Romanian, ethnically speaking,
plays no role in it.
regards,
SG
Aron Edidin
racetrack (Monza)? The French novel (Man's Fate)? Or what?
Yours,
Aron
Paul Kintzele
Aron Edidin wrote:
>
> Now that that's settled, how about the HIP fiddler? Is it like the Italian
> racetrack (Monza)? The French novel (Man's Fate)? Or what?
I've heard it as MAN-zee.
Paul
samir golescu
On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Paul Kintzele wrote:
Like Vladimir de Pachmann was also known as "Chopinzee"? (-:
J. K. Stevenson
The announcer, whose name eludes me now, was a personal friend of the
maestro.
JS
In article <39D407E5...@silvertone.princeton.edu>, Margaret Mikulska
<miku...@silvertone.princeton.edu> wrote:
> Raymond Hall wrote:
>
> > I am now taking the opportunity to ask another question of a different
> > conductor, but even though you are not Hungarian, do you know the *really*
> > correct way to pronounce Szell.
> > Is it SHELL or CELL or ZELL?
> >
> > I have always used SHELL with no problems.
>
> As long as it's lead-free.
>
> > But is it strictly correct?
>
> It's strictly incorrect.
>
> > I
> > know you are not Hungarian, and I also know there is a Finnish connection
> > with the Hungarian language. Perhaps I should ask a Finn?
> > ;-)
>
> The pronunciation is 'sell'. "Sz" in Hungarian is pronounced 's' and
> vice versa.
>
> -Margaret
Raymond Hall
news:Pine.GSO.4.10.100092...@ux12.cso.uiuc.edu...
>
> On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Paul Kintzele wrote:
>
> > consensus, but most responses indicated that you pronounced it as if it
> > were Italian: chell-ee-bee-DOCK-ay. In the rehearsal disc coupled with
> > his recently released EMI Bruckner 9, Celibidache says his own name
> > (twice actually) at one point, and it sounds more or less like this
> > (though the vowels are a little more muted, more like: chell-ih-
> > bih-DOCK-uh).
>
> regards the "axiological spissitude" of the HIP phenomenon, but I cannot
> understand why you don't take us (George M. & moi) as authorities in how
> "Celibidache" is to be pronounced.
>
> substitute DOCK with DUCK and AY with a simple "(k)e", like in "CArrot".
>
> Chel-ih-bih-dah-keh!
>
Actually I had always pronounced Celibidache almost that way, except I used
a soft ending "che" instead of "ke".
I am now taking the opportunity to ask another question of a different
conductor, but even though you are not Hungarian, do you know the *really*
correct way to pronounce Szell.
Is it SHELL or CELL or ZELL?
I have always used SHELL with no problems. But is it strictly correct? I
know you are not Hungarian, and I also know there is a Finnish connection
with the Hungarian language. Perhaps I should ask a Finn?
;-)
Regards,
# Classical Music WebSites
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# Doris Day, Billie Holiday
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
Ray, Sydney
Matthew B. Tepper
<39D3A56E...@bic.mni.mcgill.ca>:
>
>Jarl Sigurd wrote:
>
>> Every CD Store I go to pronounces Celibidache's name differently. What
>> is the correct pronunciation for his name?
>
>'shär-l&-t&n
>
>
>Alain
I was waiting for you to do that so I wouldn't have to. (Says Matthew, who
patiently attended three Celibidache/Munich PO concerts in 1989.)
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
"Compassionate Conservatism?" * "Tight Slacks?" * "Jumbo Shrimp?"
Matthew B. Tepper
>I'm pretty sure I saw the son's signature somewhere in the EMI Bruckner
>7th. Strangely, the son's name is 'Celebidachi'.
Doesn't conductor Leonard Slatkin have a brother who spells his last name
as Zlotkin?
Margaret Mikulska
Raymond Hall wrote:
> I am now taking the opportunity to ask another question of a different
> conductor, but even though you are not Hungarian, do you know the *really*
> correct way to pronounce Szell.
> Is it SHELL or CELL or ZELL?
>
> I have always used SHELL with no problems.
As long as it's lead-free.
> But is it strictly correct?
It's strictly incorrect.
> I
> know you are not Hungarian, and I also know there is a Finnish connection
> with the Hungarian language. Perhaps I should ask a Finn?
> ;-)
The pronunciation is 'sell'. "Sz" in Hungarian is pronounced 's' and
vice versa.
-Margaret
Margaret Mikulska
"Matthew B. Tepper" wrote:
> Doesn't conductor Leonard Slatkin have a brother who spells his last name
> as Zlotkin?
Yes; he's a cellist.
-Margaret
Ehrlich606
>
>> I
>> know you are not Hungarian, and I also know there is a Finnish connection
>> with the Hungarian language. Perhaps I should ask a Finn?
>> ;-)
>
>The pronunciation is 'sell'. "Sz" in Hungarian is pronounced 's' and
>vice versa.
>
Pronunciation is "SELL". Hungarian has three "s" sounds, "S" which is equal to
"sh" as in Gyorgy Sholti, "SZ" which is more or less our "s", and "C" which is
equal to "ts".
Raymond Hall
pronunciation of Szell, which up to now I have obviously mispronounced.
I will stand in a corner and listen to a Wagner overture as penance.
Regards,
# Classical Music WebSites
# Favourite Conductors
# Doris Day, Billie Holiday
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
Ray, Sydney
"Ehrlich606" <ehrli...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000929000348...@nso-ct.aol.com...
Bob Harper
years, and whose mellifluous voice sounds very little different now than it did
when I listened to the broadcasts in the mid-60s when I was an undergraduate at
the University of Kansas
"J. K. Stevenson" wrote:
> Ray, in the Cleveland Orchestra broadcasts Szell always pronounced Sell.
> The announcer, whose name eludes me now, was a personal friend of the
> maestro.
>
> JS
>
> In article <39D407E5...@silvertone.princeton.edu>, Margaret Mikulska
Brendan R. Wehrung
> On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Paul Kintzele wrote:
>
>> I started a thread on this a few months ago. There wasn't a perfect
>> consensus, but most responses indicated that you pronounced it as if it
>> were Italian: chell-ee-bee-DOCK-ay. In the rehearsal disc coupled with
>> his recently released EMI Bruckner 9, Celibidache says his own name
>> (twice actually) at one point, and it sounds more or less like this
>> (though the vowels are a little more muted, more like: chell-ih-
>> bih-DOCK-uh).
>
> Paul, I can understand why you don't take me as an authority in what
> regards the "axiological spissitude" of the HIP phenomenon, but I cannot
> understand why you don't take us (George M. & moi) as authorities in how
> "Celibidache" is to be pronounced.
>
> Chel-ih-bih is OK but (not because I'd try to flatter Mr Tepper)
> substitute DOCK with DUCK and AY with a simple "(k)e", like in "CArrot".
>
> Chel-ih-bih-dah-keh!
>
>
>
This kind of question requires an audible response. Could somebody tape
Samir and post his (correct) pronunciation as a Real Audio file?
Brendan
r_...@my-deja.com
> I am now taking the opportunity to ask another question of a
> different conductor, but even though you are not Hungarian, do you
> know the *really* correct way to pronounce Szell.
And to throw one more name into the mix, what is the proper Italian
pronunciation of Toscanini? I have always heard it pronounced (here
in America) as toss-ka-nee-nee. However, when I took a beginning
Italian class a few years ago, I learned that the language has simple
and strict pronunciation rules, and by my interpretation the
conductor’s name should be pronounced toh-ska-nee-nee (with a long o).
Similarly, the opera Tosca would be pronounced toh-ska. Comments from
Italian speakers out there?
TD
<r_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:39D443C1...@my-deja.com...
> Raymond Hall wrote:
> > I am now taking the opportunity to ask another question of a
> > different conductor, but even though you are not Hungarian, do you
> > know the *really* correct way to pronounce Szell.
>
> pronunciation of Toscanini? I have always heard it pronounced (here
> in America) as toss-ka-nee-nee. However, when I took a beginning
> Italian class a few years ago, I learned that the language has simple
> and strict pronunciation rules, and by my interpretation the
> conductor's name should be pronounced toh-ska-nee-nee (with a long o).
> Similarly, the opera Tosca would be pronounced toh-ska. Comments from
> Italian speakers out there?
While we're at it, Jorj or Gay-org Solti? Or what?
emf
name. The transliteration rules can confound, but I think that the
toss-ka-nee-nee should sound right, making the last syllable as long as
the previous one.
bye
Ezio from Tuscany
Stephen McElroy
<hallr...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> Many thanks to Margaret, JK and Erlich, for instructing me on the correct
> pronunciation of Szell, which up to now I have obviously mispronounced.
> I will stand in a corner and listen to a Wagner overture as penance.
When I asked a Hungarian how to pronounce "Szell", he said that the 'e'
should have an accent (Széll) that would make it sound like "sale". I
guess the accent didn't accompany the conductor to the New World...
Without the accent, yes, "sell".
Stephen
Tony Movshon
> While we're at it, Jorj or Gay-org Solti? Or what?
Solti began life as the Hungarian Gyorgy; he adopted the Germanified
Georg after he left Hungary, and by the end of his life (perhaps after
his knighthood) it seemed that everyone just called him "George". If
you have a chance to see the PBS video about his life, you'll hear
all three pronunciations, each from people who knew him at different
times (or, equivalently, from people whose native languages were
Hungarian, German, and English).
--
Tony Movshon Center for Neural Science
mov...@nyu.edu New York University
Frank Berger
pronounce "toss" as "tawce." I'm guessing you means "toss" to be pronounced
as the first part of "toast."
TD
"Tony Movshon" <mov...@nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:39D48F72...@nyu.edu...
> TD wrote:
> > While we're at it, Jorj or Gay-org Solti? Or what?
>
> Solti began life as the Hungarian Gyorgy; he adopted the Germanified
> Georg after he left Hungary, and by the end of his life (perhaps after
> his knighthood) it seemed that everyone just called him "George". If
> you have a chance to see the PBS video about his life, you'll hear
> all three pronunciations, each from people who knew him at different
> times (or, equivalently, from people whose native languages were
> Hungarian, German, and English).
> --
I saw some program about him; it may have been the same. Iremember he
started with a Hungarian first name and a German last name, and then
switched to a German first name and Hungarian last.
t
samir golescu
> > TD wrote:
> > > While we're at it, Jorj or Gay-org Solti? Or what?
Where did you take that, um, information from?? (-:
And welcome back.
regards,
SG
Sacqueboutier
> In article <vtVA5.60397$c5.1...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>, "Raymond Hall"
> <hallr...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> > Many thanks to Margaret, JK and Erlich, for instructing me on the correct
> > pronunciation of Szell, which up to now I have obviously mispronounced.
> > I will stand in a corner and listen to a Wagner overture as penance.
>
> When I asked a Hungarian how to pronounce "Szell", he said that the 'e'
> should have an accent (Széll) that would make it sound like "sale". I
> guess the accent didn't accompany the conductor to the New World...
>
> Without the accent, yes, "sell".
According to my Hungarian/English phrase book, it should
be pronounced "I-vant-to-feel-your-buttocks".
--
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Don Patterson
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Jan Depondt
> >The pronunciation is 'sell'. "Sz" in Hungarian is pronounced 's' and
> >vice versa.
> >
>
>
> Pronunciation is "SELL". Hungarian has three "s" sounds, "S" which is
equal to
> "sh" as in Gyorgy Sholti, "SZ" which is more or less our "s", and "C"
which is
> equal to "ts".
>
But ... why should this name been pronounced in the Hungarian way? Szell was
born in Hungary, but his parents where Czechs. Was their name also "Szell",
or did they change their names in Hungary? If their name was "Szell", we
should now get worried about the Czechian pronounciation.
Jan Depondt
Gyorgy Sajo
> I am now taking the opportunity to ask another question of a different
> conductor, but even though you are not Hungarian, do you know the *really*
> correct way to pronounce Szell.
> Is it SHELL or CELL or ZELL?
>
> I have always used SHELL with no problems. But is it strictly correct? I
> know you are not Hungarian, and I also know there is a Finnish connection
> with the Hungarian language. Perhaps I should ask a Finn?
No, just ask your local native Hungarian expert! :-) Széll (with an accent
on 'e') is pronounced almost like sail, just without the 'i'. Hungarian
'sz' is pronounced as English 's', Hungarian 'é' is a long and open English
'e' (like [e:] in English phonetic spelling), and the double 'll' is
the same like in English sell.
Regards,
Gyorgy
Gyorgy Sajo
> But ... why should this name been pronounced in the Hungarian way? Szell was
> born in Hungary, but his parents where Czechs. Was their name also "Szell",
> or did they change their names in Hungary? If their name was "Szell", we
> should now get worried about the Czechian pronounciation.
I know nothing about Széll's ethnic origins, but his family name is not an
uncommon one in Hungary, and it is also a meaningful Hungarian word
(meaning 'wind'). Furthermore, the spelling of the three phonemes in his
name - the 'sz', the 'é' with the accent, and to a certain extent, the
double 'll' - reflects typical Hungarian orthography.
Gyorgy
Ehrlich606
>> Pronunciation is "SELL". Hungarian has three "s" sounds, "S" which is
>equal to
>> "sh" as in Gyorgy Sholti, "SZ" which is more or less our "s", and "C"
>which is
>> equal to "ts".
>>
>
>But ... why should this name been pronounced in the Hungarian way? Szell was
>born in Hungary, but his parents where Czechs. Was their name also "Szell",
>or did they change their names in Hungary? If their name was "Szell", we
>should now get worried about the Czechian pronounciation.
>
Well, what kind of Czechs were they? (Bearing in mind that there was no Czech
Republic or even Czechoslovakia at that the time.) If they were from
Bratislava/Bruenn/Pozsony, then they probably used Hungarian spelling from the
gitgo. I know "SZ" in Polish is used to convey "Sh", but in Czech "S" with a
hacek is used. So "SZ" in Czech would probably sound as "s" anyway.
But I thought Szell's mother tongue was German. Same difference. Anyway, it's
"SELL" -- I am not sure if the accent is there. I do know how the name was
pronounced.
samir golescu
On Fri, 29 Sep 2000, Gyorgy Sajo wrote:
> No, just ask your local native Hungarian expert! :-)
Jaj, istenem, neighbor, don't hope for it! Normally, such threads should
consist out of two threads:
A: Correct pronunciation of X?
B: (you or George M or Piotr Kaminski or me, as the case may be): Y.
But then that would take all the fun from our respected rmcr colleagues!
This reminds me the story about Szell (or was it Solti?) who, barely
speaking English, corrected the pronunciation of his British soloists...
regards,
SG (-:
Simon Roberts
: Of course, this is only of limited help, since a Northeasterner would
: pronounce "toss" as "tawce." I'm guessing you means "toss" to be pronounced
: as the first part of "toast."
Good grief. How do northeasterners pronounce "toast"?
Simon
Stephen McElroy
> Stephen McElroy wrote:
> > Without the accent, yes, "sell".
>
> According to my Hungarian/English phrase book, it should
> be pronounced "I-vant-to-feel-your-buttocks".
Surely, this is cause for vigorous complaint! Address this phrase to the
nearest policeman ASAP.
Stephen
REG
<r_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:39D443C1...@my-deja.com...
> Raymond Hall wrote:
> > I am now taking the opportunity to ask another question of a
> > different conductor, but even though you are not Hungarian, do you
> > know the *really* correct way to pronounce Szell.
>
Matthew B. Tepper
>
>But ... why should this name been pronounced in the Hungarian way? Szell
>was born in Hungary, but his parents where Czechs. Was their name also
>"Szell", or did they change their names in Hungary? If their name was
>"Szell", we should now get worried about the Czechian pronounciation.
My understanding was that Szell's father was Hungarian, his mother was a
Slovak, and he grew up in and around Vienna.
Edward A. Cowan
> When I asked a Hungarian how to pronounce "Szell", he said that the 'e'
> should have an accent (Széll) that would make it sound like "sale". I
> guess the accent didn't accompany the conductor to the New World...
>
> Without the accent, yes, "sell".
I was about to mention that myself. A couple of Hungarian-born
colleagues of mine have both pronounced the name "sale" (or "sail" --
English is tough stuff! <g>). However, it appears that Szell himself,
with or without the long mark (cf. Paul Henry Láng, who also dropped the
macron from his name), decided to permit people to pronounce it "sell",
so that should be it, I guess...
--
E.A.C.
Edward A. Cowan
> I learned that the language has simple
> and strict pronunciation rules, and by my interpretation the
> conductor's name should be pronounced toh-ska-nee-nee (with a long o).
> Similarly, the opera Tosca would be pronounced toh-ska.
Both stated pronunications are spot-on. And that's how I prounouce them,
too. Also, remember that the consonants in Italian are not aspirated. (I
picked this up by ear when I was listening to the Met broadcasts as a
child, long before I knew what was meant by "aspirated consonants," or
even _lenes_ and _fortis_...) Many Germans, when singing in Italian,
often sing with aspirated consonants and other Germanisms, such as
"kvesto" (K(H)VESSS-T(H)OH). The old Vox recording of Monteverdi's _La
favola d'Orfeo_ has someone singing "In k(h)vess-toh lee-ay-t(h)oh eh
fforrr-t(h)unat(h)o dtschorrr-noh..."
--
E.A.C.
Jon Bell
"Tahst"?
--
Jon Bell <jtb...@presby.edu> Presbyterian College
Dept. of Physics and Computer Science Clinton, South Carolina USA
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vme...@mmcable.com
wrote:
>"samir golescu" <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
>news:Pine.GSO.4.10.100092...@ux12.cso.uiuc.edu...
>>
>> On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Paul Kintzele wrote:
>>
>> > I started a thread on this a few months ago. There wasn't a perfect
>> > consensus, but most responses indicated that you pronounced it as if it
>> > were Italian: chell-ee-bee-DOCK-ay. In the rehearsal disc coupled with
>> > his recently released EMI Bruckner 9, Celibidache says his own name
>> > (twice actually) at one point, and it sounds more or less like this
>> > (though the vowels are a little more muted, more like: chell-ih-
>> > bih-DOCK-uh).
>>
>> Paul, I can understand why you don't take me as an authority in what
>> regards the "axiological spissitude" of the HIP phenomenon, but I cannot
>> understand why you don't take us (George M. & moi) as authorities in how
>> "Celibidache" is to be pronounced.
>>
>> Chel-ih-bih is OK but (not because I'd try to flatter Mr Tepper)
>> substitute DOCK with DUCK and AY with a simple "(k)e", like in "CArrot".
>>
>> Chel-ih-bih-dah-keh!
>>
>I'll take your word for it ;-)
>
>Actually I had always pronounced Celibidache almost that way, except I used
>a soft ending "che" instead of "ke".
>
>I am now taking the opportunity to ask another question of a different
>conductor, but even though you are not Hungarian, do you know the *really*
>correct way to pronounce Szell.
>Is it SHELL or CELL or ZELL?
>
>I have always used SHELL with no problems. But is it strictly correct? I
>know you are not Hungarian, and I also know there is a Finnish connection
>with the Hungarian language. Perhaps I should ask a Finn?
>;-)
>
Suggest you see http://www.classiccd.co.uk/pronunciation/pronpc.html
and the explanation. One of the great problems some English speaking people
seemed to have is whether to pronounce a word as in English usage or to use the
foreign language equivalent. To show this how do you say the word France when
you use it? Or Moscow? If you use the French pronunciation does it not sound a
bit odd to do so in the normal course of conversation? Or the Russian
pronunciation for Moscow (most would not know what you were saying if you did).
So why say other names using foreign language pronunciation. I am sure most do
not give the foreign pronunciation for Austria or Germany in normal
conversation.
As for giving the correct pronunciation, surely a person is allowed to select
his own way of saying his own name, but I can remember talking with Kerensky one
time and he insisted that everyone said his name wrong, but I'm afraid he's
stuck with it.
As for George Szell, would you have addressed him as George (English) and then
used Hungarian pronunciation for his last name. He called himself George Sell
(not Shell or Zell or whatever).
As regards Celibidache, how dach with an a could become duck with u in a Romance
language is a stretch.
Raymond Hall
news:fb2btso6tiu5e4nea...@4ax.com...
correct way to sound the first consonant. I think you will agree that Sell
is a lot different from Shell (as I had always used). I wasn't interested in
pronouncing it as a Hungarian would.
And I would have addressed Szell, had I been so lucky and so privileged, as
Sir, or Maestro. Certainly not George, or I might have got taken to task in
the Szell manner, depending upon his mood on the day.
Anyone that can put fear into the LSO, isn't going to have any problem with
me ;-)
vme...@mmcable.com
that way and does state "you" which I meant "you" to mean anyone in this group
who reads the post.
What bothered me and bothers me about all of these "correct pronunciation" posts
is English speaking people trying to pronounce foreign names and terms as if the
English pronunciation will not suffice. Sir Thomas had some choice words for
those whose native tongue is English and who flirted with foreign pronunciation.
If I am in Russia and speaking Russian, I pronounce names as any Russian would
and don't care if Hitler comes out as Gitler. An English-speaking person
speaking English should say Handel as it is said in English, not German, unless
you are going to Germanize the entire name in which case you certainly shouldn't
be using George.
Again I did not mean to pinpoint you--it just came out that way.
As for addressing Szell, to me and everyone else at the time,including Szell,
Reiner, Rodzinski, Monteux, Ormandy, etc. maestro referred to no one other than
Arturo Toscanini and to Bruno Walter and conductors of that same generation.
The rest were addressed by name, until later years when each had taken up
residence and were masters in house, Szell at Cleveland, Reiner at Chicago, etc.
One of my oldest friends and a neighbor was one of Szell's first students and of
course Szell will always be Maestro to him, whereas Maestro to me was Toscanini
and Walter. For Szell, Richard Strauss was Maestro (a great Wagner conductor)
and for Walter, Mahler. I knew some who considered Saint-Saens as Maestro and
no one else was ever maestro thereafter.
On Sun, 1 Oct 2000 02:11:20 +1000, "Raymond Hall" <hallr...@bigpond.com>
Josep M. Vilanova
Toscanini is pronounced just like
Tos (not Toast, or anything like that, just one vowel, like the o in dog)
ka (like the a in car, and short)
ni (like the i in in, and short as well)put the stress here
ni (same)
Raymond Hall
news:j31dtsk0s1rqouin1...@4ax.com...
> Frankly, I did not mean to personalize this even though my statement
appears
> that way and does state "you" which I meant "you" to mean anyone in this
group
> who reads the post.
> What bothered me and bothers me about all of these "correct pronunciation"
posts
> is English speaking people trying to pronounce foreign names and terms as
if the
> English pronunciation will not suffice. Sir Thomas had some choice words
for
> those whose native tongue is English and who flirted with foreign
pronunciation.
> If I am in Russia and speaking Russian, I pronounce names as any Russian
would
> and don't care if Hitler comes out as Gitler. An English-speaking person
> speaking English should say Handel as it is said in English, not German,
unless
> you are going to Germanize the entire name in which case you certainly
shouldn't
> be using George.
> Again I did not mean to pinpoint you--it just came out that way.
>
Hungarian, or especially for the English (me in particular), even trying to
get the correct French pronunciation is almost impossible, whereas with
German, (quite phonetic), and surprisingly Italian, seems to roll off the
tongue very easily. What is more, I tend to agree with your essential point,
but if one can master and easily remember the correct pronunciation of a
name in particular, I think we should endeavour to use that pronunciation,
*without* going overboard about it of course. Karl Haas always gives me a
giggle at his attempts at "absolute correctness of pronunciation" of a
musical term or a composer. No harm in it, as I quite enjoy Haas, but he
does seem at pains to go a tad overboard with the "correctness", as he sees
it, of a particular pronunciation.
> As for addressing Szell, to me and everyone else at the time,including
Szell,
> Reiner, Rodzinski, Monteux, Ormandy, etc. maestro referred to no one
other than
> Arturo Toscanini and to Bruno Walter and conductors of that same
generation.
> The rest were addressed by name, until later years when each had taken up
> residence and were masters in house, Szell at Cleveland, Reiner at
Chicago, etc.
> One of my oldest friends and a neighbor was one of Szell's first students
and of
> course Szell will always be Maestro to him, whereas Maestro to me was
Toscanini
> and Walter. For Szell, Richard Strauss was Maestro (a great Wagner
conductor)
> and for Walter, Mahler. I knew some who considered Saint-Saens as Maestro
and
> no one else was ever maestro thereafter.
>
You could blow me down with a feather with the above information. I take
your word for it absolutely, but did the Chicago SO members ever ask Dr.
Reiner a question by addressing him as Fritz ?
I presume it was, of course, Dr Reiner that would have been used to address
him, or Mr Ormandy, or "please Mr Rodzinski, could you stop reaching for
your back pocket - you are making me nervous".
John Grabowski
>
> al...@bic.mni.mcgill.ca (Alain Dagher) wrote in
> <39D3A56E...@bic.mni.mcgill.ca>:
> >
> >Jarl Sigurd wrote:
> >
> >> Every CD Store I go to pronounces Celibidache's name differently. What
> >> is the correct pronunciation for his name?
> >
> >'shär-l&-t&n
> >
> >cheers,
> >
> >Alain
>
> I was waiting for you to do that so I wouldn't have to. (Says Matthew, who
> patiently attended three Celibidache/Munich PO concerts in 1989.)
'shär-l&-t&n or not, his Bruckner 7th gives me goosebumps.
John
--
Let a wave of intolerance wash over you. Yes, hate is good...Our goal
is a Christian nation...We are called by God to conquer this country.
We don't want pluralism. --Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue
Spammers: I don't need a work-at-home business, a ground-floor
investment opportunity or Viagra, thank you.
John Grabowski
vme...@mmcable.com
wrote:
><vme...@mmcable.com> wrote in message
>news:j31dtsk0s1rqouin1...@4ax.com...
>> Frankly, I did not mean to personalize this even though my statement
>appears
>> that way and does state "you" which I meant "you" to mean anyone in this
>group
>> who reads the post.
>> What bothered me and bothers me about all of these "correct pronunciation"
>posts
>> is English speaking people trying to pronounce foreign names and terms as
>if the
>> English pronunciation will not suffice. Sir Thomas had some choice words
>for
>> those whose native tongue is English and who flirted with foreign
>pronunciation.
>> If I am in Russia and speaking Russian, I pronounce names as any Russian
>would
>> and don't care if Hitler comes out as Gitler. An English-speaking person
>> speaking English should say Handel as it is said in English, not German,
>unless
>> you are going to Germanize the entire name in which case you certainly
>shouldn't
>> be using George.
>> Again I did not mean to pinpoint you--it just came out that way.
>>
>Thanks for clarifying your point. I agree that trying to sound like a
>Hungarian, or especially for the English (me in particular), even trying to
>get the correct French pronunciation is almost impossible, whereas with
>German, (quite phonetic), and surprisingly Italian, seems to roll off the
>tongue very easily. What is more, I tend to agree with your essential point,
>but if one can master and easily remember the correct pronunciation of a
>name in particular, I think we should endeavour to use that pronunciation,
>*without* going overboard about it of course. Karl Haas always gives me a
>giggle at his attempts at "absolute correctness of pronunciation" of a
>musical term or a composer. No harm in it, as I quite enjoy Haas, but he
>does seem at pains to go a tad overboard with the "correctness", as he sees
>it, of a particular pronunciation.
>
>
>> As for addressing Szell, to me and everyone else at the time,including
>Szell,
>> Reiner, Rodzinski, Monteux, Ormandy, etc. maestro referred to no one
>other than
>> Arturo Toscanini and to Bruno Walter and conductors of that same
>generation.
>> The rest were addressed by name, until later years when each had taken up
>> residence and were masters in house, Szell at Cleveland, Reiner at
>Chicago, etc.
>> One of my oldest friends and a neighbor was one of Szell's first students
>and of
>> course Szell will always be Maestro to him, whereas Maestro to me was
>Toscanini
>> and Walter. For Szell, Richard Strauss was Maestro (a great Wagner
>conductor)
>> and for Walter, Mahler. I knew some who considered Saint-Saens as Maestro
>and
>> no one else was ever maestro thereafter.
>>
>You could blow me down with a feather with the above information. I take
>your word for it absolutely, but did the Chicago SO members ever ask Dr.
>Reiner a question by addressing him as Fritz ?
>I presume it was, of course, Dr Reiner that would have been used to address
>him, or Mr Ormandy, or "please Mr Rodzinski, could you stop reaching for
>your back pocket - you are making me nervous".
>;-)
>
You have a real point with Rodzinski--but in all seriousness, he could be as
kind a person as you would ever want to meet and as humble too! People make too
much of these things and usually names were simply not used at all. You just
talked or asked your question--it wasn't at all like addressing a monarch.
Remember many of these musicians didn't give a damn who you were--they'd pull or
say anything. They even yelled back at Toscanini and even walked out on him.
Don't believe that it was all Toscanini doing the yelling. Many of these
sessions were misreported COMPLETELY in the newspapers and so anyone doing
research will NOT get the real story if they use just the printed word.
As one famous musician said to me once, "All is not gold that glitters" and then
he added, "Especially with conductors!" I didn't take affront as I knew that he
couldn't have been speaking about me as I certainly wasn't one of the golden
boys all aglitter. Later I found out that Stokowski was the butt of the
statement. Stokowski was much much more outlandish than Toscanini ever could
be. He irritated players so that I know of one occasion where he was
castigating a player who simply stood up and quit and the rest of the orchestra
got up and did the same thing--walked out! Let me add that of all the
conductors the British conductors were the most loved and at the same time
respected. Beecham, Coates, Wood, Goosens, Boult, Sargent, and Barbirolli NEVER
talked down to you--they respected you, they worked with you--not against you
and the orchestra always relaxed and played its heart out for these men. The
Germans were highly respected but everyone always knew you were in for a hell of
a thorough, exacting and proficient taskmaster secession. And in the case of
the Germans (particularly Klemperer and Furtwangler) some of the players would
get a little on edge or go completely off them with the Germans clearly never
understanding what precisely was wrong with some Italian player yelling
something in broken English. Regardless in the end everyone would make up and
go right on as if nothing had happened! It was like that! Some conductors who
will go nameless had some of the worst practical jokes played on them with the
entire orchestra taking part (e.g. playing the Eroica in E# rather than Eb to
see if the idiot noticed) or playing the printed wrong note (which Toscanini,
Beecham etc had corrected).
ANd, as an aside, I am sure it would have been Dr. Reiner and Dr. Rodzinski or
Dr. Dr. Reiner as you remember he and Rodzinski both had law degrees as well as
music degrees. I remember a mayor of Gratz who was always addressed as Dr. Dr.
Dr. Gotz (not sure if that's the name or not after so many years) because he had
three doctorates and I as only Dr. Dr. Professor Maestro as I had only two
doctorates. The world is funny when it comes to titles and I never truthfully
bothered with them though it always seemed to impress the border police and
customs officials in Central and Eastern Europe including Russia. Whereas in
the U.S. it usually meant one was some academic bon-bon or so it always seemed
to me as we moved away from the 19th century and "progressed" into the 20th
century toward the new millennium.
Frank Berger
Raymond Hall
news:ocfftsshf6hkkp8n2...@4ax.com...> [snip for brevity .....]
Fascinating post, containing some good reminiscences, and many thanks for
sharing them with us.
Matthew B. Tepper
given (at least, insofar as the kinescopes had survived mostly whole and
had not yet been edited down for the Japanese or worldwide video release),
complete with commercial announcements and an introduction by NBC's primo
supremo, David Sarnoff. "General" Sarnoff pronounced Toscanini's name like
"Tosca-ninny."
frank.d...@dal.frb.org (Frank Berger) wrote in
<39D80BE9...@dal.frb.org>:
--
Dan Koren
100...@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu>,
samir golescu <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> Like Vladimir de Pachmann was also known as "Chopinzee"? (-:
>
Not Chopinzeus?
dk
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
clow...@gmail.com
> Every CD Store I go to pronounces Celibidache's name
> differently. What is the correct pronunciation for
> his name?
>
>
> to listen to a symphony composed by Jarl Sigurd
> visit: http://geocities.com/Paris/Lights/3333
Try this neat tool:
http://www.oddcast.com/home/demos/tts/tts_example.php?sitepal
Romanian has a sparse set of sample pronunciations (only 2) and they are quite different.
Jim Clow
Bozo
> Romanian has a sparse set of sample pronunciations (only 2) and they are quite different.
William Sommerwerck
Alex Brown
> sell a bee dah' chee
CHELI - BI - DARKEE
(i.e. with a hard "C" at the end)