XRCD RCA Victor releases
deac...@yahoo.com
24-bit processed CDs.
Both feature Kondrashin in his prime during his tour with Cliburn in
late 1958 together with the RCA Victor Symphony Orchestra.
Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Kabalevsky and Khatchaturian.
The recordings, which took place in October, were supervised by
Richard Mohr with Lewis Layton at the controls.
I doubt that any more dynamic recordings of any of the music in
question have ever been made, not even by Dorati on MLP. For those
with the equipment to reveal what is on these new CDs, the soundstage
is just incredible. I would say 3-D, except that it cannot really be,
of course. Every section of the orchestra - a pickup group led by
Oscar Shumsky - outdoes itself.
And to think that had Van Cliburn not insisted in having Kondrashin
accompany him on his return to America after the Tchaikovsky
Competition win, we would have never had these CDs.
I have the originals in Shaded Dog pressings, of course, but they have
never sounded as good as they do here.
Still only just over 30 minutes of music on each CD, but for my money,
they are worth every penny.
This is the way to treat archival recordings of real merit.
TD
Van Eyes
news:nlpo605nkl1loo20q...@4ax.com
> Still only just over 30 minutes of music on each CD, but for my money,
> they are worth every penny.
>
> This is the way to treat archival recordings of real merit.
You mean, "....worth every dollar." Well, glad you think so. I noticed
a few minutes ago at a mail-order Website, a clear example of this CD
scam. $30 vs $11.
Regards
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
deac...@yahoo.com
<van...@excite.com> wrote:
>"deacontde" <deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:nlpo605nkl1loo20q...@4ax.com
>
>> Still only just over 30 minutes of music on each CD, but for my money,
>> they are worth every penny.
>>
>> This is the way to treat archival recordings of real merit.
>
>You mean, "....worth every dollar." Well, glad you think so. I noticed
>a few minutes ago at a mail-order Website, a clear example of this CD
>scam. $30 vs $11.
You obviously don't have the equipment to be able to tell the
difference between the "ordinary" Living Stereo release and the XRCD.
I did the comparison myself, and the difference is staggering.
To each his own.
TD
Van Eyes
> You obviously don't have the equipment to be able to tell the
> difference between the "ordinary" Living Stereo release and the XRCD.
Nope, that response won't work, as one can see from the following...
"The Extended Resolution Compact Disc (XRCD) from JVC brings the
listener higher fidelity and improved audio quality by enhancing the
process of mastering and manufacturing compact discs. All of this is
done within the current CD standard, so no special cd player or decoding
box is needed to hear the benefit of the xrcd."
http://www.xrcd.net/Shopping/process.asp
> I did the comparison myself, and the difference is staggering.
Funny, the reviews I've read, written by apparent audiophiles, point to
little or subtle improvement, if any.
> To each his own.
There yuh go.
Norman Schwartz
"Van Eyes" <van...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:aac19888120cc738e47...@mygate.mailgate.org...
Organ Symphony and wasn't overly impressed. My rig is a little above
average, but then again my hearing is less than average. I may get back to
this project, however it doesn't offer (m)any rewards. On the basis of my
brief comparison, the original releases seem more than good enough (for me),
so that I will not be buying any more, (no matter how better anyone says
they are).
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:aac19888120cc738e47ec46450054142.61436
@mygate.mailgate.org:
Also contains Aloe Vera?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
Steve Molino
news:Xns94BEEFB0D59...@207.217.125.204...
> "Van Eyes" <van...@excite.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:aac19888120cc738e47ec46450054142.61436
> @mygate.mailgate.org:
>
> > "deacontde" <deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:q7jp60dkmdph1ajjh...@4ax.com
> >
> >> You obviously don't have the equipment to be able to tell the
> >> difference between the "ordinary" Living Stereo release and the XRCD.
> >
> > Nope, that response won't work, as one can see from the following...
> >
> > "The Extended Resolution Compact Disc (XRCD) from JVC brings the
> > listener higher fidelity and improved audio quality by enhancing the
> > process of mastering and manufacturing compact discs. All of this is
> > done within the current CD standard, so no special cd player or decoding
> > box is needed to hear the benefit of the xrcd."
> >
> > http://www.xrcd.net/Shopping/process.asp
> >
> >> I did the comparison myself, and the difference is staggering.
> >
> > Funny, the reviews I've read, written by apparent audiophiles, point to
> > little or subtle improvement, if any.
> >
> >> To each his own.
> >
> > There yuh go.
>
> Also contains Aloe Vera?
>
And glucosamine!
Bob Harper
significant. What I question is the very short measure at a very high
price.
I believe I am correct in thinking that the musical content of a number
of pairs of the discs (Reiner's Bartok and Beethoven 5 and 7, for
example) would fit on one CD, and I am doubtful (correct me if I'm
wrong) this would involve sonic compromise. For such an animal I would
pay a super-premium price, but given that the Living Presence issues of
almost all these recordings are 1)good, 2)contain more music, and 3)
mid-price, it's hard to justify the XRCD tariff.
My system's pretty good. How good does it need to be to find a
'staggering' difference in these issues?
Bob Harper
Bob Lombard
wrote:
>My system's pretty good. How good does it need to be to find a
>'staggering' difference in these issues?
>
If you'll settle for 'startling', moderately priced headphones - e.g.
Audio Technica ATH-M30 - are good enough, at least for the Munch St.
Saens 3rd (the only one I've heard). The difference is in the details.
bl
Bob Reith
incarnation, but since my used lp is less-than-perfect, the xrcd was a treat.
Of course, a hefty discount and free ship put it at around the cost of a
regular full-price cd, but that was a one-time occurrance. This one I might
have bitten the bullet for since I like the performance, however it's gotta be
something special (compared to what I have) to go for it otherwise. The
absence of pairings on most releases doesn't help.
Bob
Norman Schwartz
"Bob Lombard" <mai...@sover.net> wrote in message
news:4bca24e797c6b4ac...@news.teranews.com...
Wishful thinking.
Bob Lombard
<van...@excite.com> wrote:
>Funny, the reviews I've read, written by apparent audiophiles, point to
>little or subtle improvement, if any.
>
The problems for audiophiles:
1) The CDs are not sold exclusively at audiophile outlets.
2) The prices are insufficiently high to be truly audiophile.
The XRCD is a 'tweener. If the above problems were addressed, possibly
with the addition of HDCD formatting, more units would sell.
bl
Simon Roberts
>I'm certainly prepared to believe that the improvement in the XRCDs is
>significant. What I question is the very short measure at a very high
>price.
>I believe I am correct in thinking that the musical content of a number
>of pairs of the discs (Reiner's Bartok and Beethoven 5 and 7, for
>example) would fit on one CD, and I am doubtful (correct me if I'm
>wrong) this would involve sonic compromise. For such an animal I would
>pay a super-premium price, but given that the Living Presence issues of
>almost all these recordings are 1)good, 2)contain more music, and 3)
>mid-price, it's hard to justify the XRCD tariff.
>My system's pretty good. How good does it need to be to find a
>'staggering' difference in these issues?
Comparing via Stax headphones I wouldn't call the differences in those I've
heard "staggering" (it's nothing like the difference between the full price
(atrocious) and budget price (good) RCA masterings of the Gilels/Reiner Brahms
cto 2, or the less striking difference between the full price (dull) and budget
price Serkin/Szell Brahms on Sony), but it's noticeable. Whether it's
"significant" depends on how important certain sorts of differences are; you
should probably try one and decide for yourself. As for whether the length of
the things has anything to do with the quality of the sound, I don't see why it
should. For listening in my office I copied two of them onto one disc (slightly
under 80 minutes) and the results sound just fine to me.
(I would also note that they're not *that* expensive anyway - they're cheaper in
real terms than CDs were when they were first released, aren't they? A regular
full priced EMI CD in a store in London costs more....)
Simon
Norman Schwartz
CD, sold at conventional outlets and prices. Why would any of the above
increase their
appeal? Not every audiophile has HDCD decoding, so adding HDCD formatting
would likely lessen their appeal. Did you forget using gold instead of
aluminum?
david gideon
Norman Schwartz <nm...@att.net> wrote:
> Not every audiophile has HDCD decoding, so adding HDCD formatting
> would likely lessen their appeal.
It certainly would for me. I still remember an expose in Audio magazine
that demonstrated that HDCD was little more than a
compression/expansion encode/decode system. While it can make a
theoretical improvement if you have the proper decoder engaged, for
players without the decoder it actually degrades the sound (contrary to
the false claims of HDCD) because it slightly compresses the dynamic
range.
dg
--
CD issues of long-unavailable classic performances from Scherchen, Stokowski,
Paray, Steinberg, and more, exclusively at: http://www.rediscovery.us
GMS
I'll chime in and agree that, even on my modest stereo system, the
difference can be quite staggering. My only disappointment comes from
the fact that the releases are inconsistent in 'staggering' qualities:
the best issues to my ears so far are the Reiner/CSO Pines and
Fountains and the Reiner/CSO Scheherezade. In some other issues I
become conscious of the master tapes beginning to age. I'm a great
supporter of JVC's XRCD "cause" however, and will continue to support
them (especially when I find the discs on sale---I've never paid the
full $30-35; I've usually managed to find them for $25 or less.) Just
my $0.02 (or, more accurately, $25.) Gary Stucka
Bob Lombard
wrote:
Many (most?) Burr-Brown DACs incorporate HDCD. Personally, I can
detect no benefit from that process. As for XRCD improvement, could it
be that your hearing is less than superb? Mine certainly isn't.
bl
Steve Emerson
Bob Lombard <mai...@sover.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 17:20:39 GMT, "Norman Schwartz" <nm...@att.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Bob Lombard" <mai...@sover.net> wrote in message
> >news:942f5d75a9bbed6d...@news.teranews.com...
> >> On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 03:40:10 +0000 (UTC), "Van Eyes"
> >> <van...@excite.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> >Funny, the reviews I've read, written by apparent audiophiles, point to
> >> >little or subtle improvement, if any.
> >> >
> >> The problems for audiophiles:
> >>
> >> 1) The CDs are not sold exclusively at audiophile outlets.
> >>
> >> 2) The prices are insufficiently high to be truly audiophile.
They are? XRCDs are damned expensive.
> >> The XRCD is a 'tweener. If the above problems were addressed, possibly
> >> with the addition of HDCD formatting, more units would sell.
> >>
> >Audiophiles most probably have both the original LP release as well as the
> >CD, sold at conventional outlets and prices. Why would any of the above
> >increase their
> >appeal? Not every audiophile has HDCD decoding, so adding HDCD formatting
> >would likely lessen their appeal. Did you forget using gold instead of
> >aluminum?
> >
> Many (most?) Burr-Brown DACs incorporate HDCD.
I believe HDCD is decoded by a Pacific Microsonics digital filter; not a DAC.
Maybe there are DACs of recent vintage that incorporate the said filter; I
don't know, I did not think digital filters were ever implemented on the DAC.
In any case there are, as you imply, lots of HDCD-equipped players out there,
including most current Rotels and Arcams.
> Personally, I can
> detect no benefit from that process.
The ones I have seem to possess a quite vivid sound of their own; but I
haven't taken the trouble to compare what they sound like on a non-HDCD
machine.
SE.
Bob Lombard
wrote:
> I believe HDCD is decoded by a Pacific Microsonics digital filter; not a
> DAC.
> Maybe there are DACs of recent vintage that incorporate the said filter;
> I
> don't know, I did not think digital filters were ever implemented on the
> DAC.
> In any case there are, as you imply, lots of HDCD-equipped players out
> there,
> including most current Rotels and Arcams.
>
>> Personally, I can
>> detect no benefit from that process.
>
> The ones I have seem to possess a quite vivid sound of their own; but I
> haven't taken the trouble to compare what they sound like on a non-HDCD
> machine.
>
> SE.
My lack of insight into things audiophile is vast. My Adcom player is sort
of 'entry-level audiophile' I guess; the literature implies that it has
HDCD because it has Burr-Brown DACs. My HK changer has Burr-Brown DACs and
HDCD. Coincidence? I dunno.
The XRCDs sell for about $30 MRSP. My impression is that no self-labeled
audiophile would stoop to pay so little for a CD unless it has cult status.
bl
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Kalman Rubinson
<eme...@nospamsonic.net> wrote:
>They are? XRCDs are damned expensive.
That's the nub of the issue here, it seems. It's hard for me to
understand why so many are so irate about it. There are many
things that I cannot or choose not to afford.
>I believe HDCD is decoded by a Pacific Microsonics digital filter; not a DAC.
>Maybe there are DACs of recent vintage that incorporate the said filter; I
>don't know, I did not think digital filters were ever implemented on the DAC.
You are mostly right but many modern DAC chips encorporate the digital
filter in them. Thus, one can speak of the HDCD filer being in the
DAC, if one wishes.
Kal
Steve Emerson
Bob Lombard <mai...@sover.net> wrote:
> My lack of insight into things audiophile is vast.
In this case your understanding seems to be better than mine. Thanks to Kal
for the explanation re: on-DAC digital filters.
SE.
Tom Deacon
emersn-1928D0....@typhoon.sonic.net, "Steve Emerson"
<eme...@nospamsonic.net> wrote:
I must say that this simple post has generated a flurry of posts none of
whom has heard the recordings mentioned in the original post, the two
Kondrashin items from 1958. The transformation of these old tapes into
something really exciting still amazes me as I listen to them again. There
is no tape hiss whatsoever, from what I can tell, certainly not like the MLP
reissues. And I would have thought that members of this group who appreciate
the art of Kondrashin - and I think there are many of those, judging from
the enthusiasm most people have for the mere mention of some pirate
recording or other - might be interested in hearing what this man was able
to do with a pickup ensemble in New York after a few rehearsals.
The cost of the XRCDs has been mentioned, as well as their short playing
time. The latter stems undoubtedly from the Japanese reluctance to mix and
match in reissues of legendary recordings. They like the original cover art,
the originally released repertoire as one thing, not a mixture. As for the
costs, well, this is clearly a result of the extra expenditures JVC has made
in order to get these tapes to sound as they should, that and the projected
relatively low sales figures of these specially packaged items. They are for
a specific audiophile market, although they also serve music lovers as well.
I should add that I have nothing whatever to do with JVC in this project. I
just buy each and every classical release in the series since I first
discovered it in Japan four or five years ago.
In any event, I would be very surprised if Kondrashin admirers in this group
were in any way disappointed by hearing these two CDs.
TD
David Hurwitz
says...
>
>JVC has just issued two new Living Stereo RCA Victor tapes in their
>24-bit processed CDs.
>
>Both feature Kondrashin in his prime during his tour with Cliburn in
>late 1958 together with the RCA Victor Symphony Orchestra.
>
>Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Kabalevsky and Khatchaturian.
>
I can't speak to the sonic improvement, but the Tchaikovsky and Rimsky
performances are dull and not even remotely competetive with the best out there.
Kondrashin was a wonderful conductor, but like everyone else had is good days
and less good ones. There's nothing shameful here, but on the whole this disc
strikes me as no better than average musically.
Dave Hurwitz
Tom Deacon
Hurwitz" <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
An interesting opinion.
But only interesting in that it reveals the woefully faulty listening
equipment you use. i.e. your ears.
The two recordings have long set the standard in all this music. Kondrashin
on a bad day, indeed.
Perhaps you need to be condemned to a diet of Zubin Mehta for a few years.
That would cure you, I think, if anything will.
TD
David Hurwitz
>The two recordings have long set the standard in all this music.
Prove it.
Dave Hurwitz
Tom Deacon
Hurwitz" <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>
>> The two recordings have long set the standard in all this music.
>
> Prove it.
Listen.
TD
Van Eyes
news:BC9774A1.487%tde...@kingston.net
Why did you tell him to do that? When you previously told him, "But only
interesting in that it reveals the woefully faulty listening
equipment you use. i.e. your ears."
Tom Deacon
98a7f06cc12f70ae727...@mygate.mailgate.org, "Van Eyes"
<van...@excite.com> wrote:
> "Tom Deacon" <tde...@kingston.net> wrote in message
> news:BC9774A1.487%tde...@kingston.net
>
>> On 4/5/04 6:20 PM, in article 91203602.0...@drn.newsguy.com, "David
>> Hurwitz" <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> The two recordings have long set the standard in all this music.
>>>
>>> Prove it.
>>
>> Listen.
>
> Why did you tell him to do that? When you previously told him, "But only
> interesting in that it reveals the woefully faulty listening
> equipment you use. i.e. your ears."
You're quite right, of course.
What would be the use?
Proving that these recordings are classics of their period does seem fairly
unnecessary, however. The Japanese rarely make mistakes in their choice of
repertoire for historical reissues. And these LPs have graced my collection
since they were first made. Sill thrill to the sound of this "pickup"
orchestra and to Mr. Shumsky's solo violin. At the time, you know, he and
Glenn Gould were running the Stratford Music Festival in Ontario. From a
strictly audiophile perspective, I don't know of a more faithful
representation of an orchestra than you get from these two discs. I only
wish I knew who more of the personnel was, surely some of the best winds,
brass and strings in the New York area. I wonder if these were former
members of Toscanini's recently disbanded NBC Symphony Orchestra, who worked
for a while as the Symphony of the Air.
TD
David Hurwitz
Eyes says...
>
>"Tom Deacon" <tde...@kingston.net> wrote in message
>news:BC9774A1.487%tde...@kingston.net
>
>> On 4/5/04 6:20 PM, in article 91203602.0...@drn.newsguy.com, "David
>> Hurwitz" <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >> The two recordings have long set the standard in all this music.
>> >
>> > Prove it.
>>
>> Listen.
>
>Why did you tell him to do that? When you previously told him, "But only
>interesting in that it reveals the woefully faulty listening
>equipment you use. i.e. your ears."
>
>
>Regards
>
Or even more pertinently, why does the Tom believe that any single person's
listening experience serves as evidence for the above contention, which depends
entirely for its validity on a postulated consensus over time among listeners
other than himself (or me, or anyone else).
There will always be recordings that by general critical and popular opinion
"set the standard" (or at all events set "a" standard)--Previn's LSO Walton 1,
Mravinsky's Tchaikovsky 4-6, Schnabel's Beethoven Sonatas, and many others. But
I have never seen anyone claim that such a thing exists for Kabalevsky's The
Comedians, Khachaturian's Masquerade Suite, or the Rimsky and Tchaikovsky
Capriccios, and I would contend that such a "standard' does not in fact exist in
these works--irrespective of my particular view of the the performances.
There are many recordings that I love very much but I would not insist that
because I love them they have been the standard against which all others are
measured. There are recordings by Kondrashin that do fall into the special
category of "standards" as well, most famously his disc of Rachmaninov's The
Bells and Symphonic Dances, and perhaps also his Scheherazade for
Philips--performances almost universally acclaimed over time. But these RCA
recordings? I think not. I have lived with them for decades and whenever in my
experience the subject of Kondrashin's recordings comes up this one is seldom
high on the list of anyone familiar with the full range of his work--the general
consensus in my own experience being that the playing is somewhat underpowered
and the conducting (in the Rimsky especially) a bit stiff and mechanical. Others
of course may disagree, but that's the point, isn't it?
All we have here is another case of Tom's ongoing series of announcements to the
effect of "Here's what I'm listening to lately and because I like it, it
therefore must be the best ever."
Dave Hurwitz
David Hurwitz
>You're quite right, of course.
>
>What would be the use?
>
>Proving that these recordings are classics of their period does seem fairly
>unnecessary, however. The Japanese rarely make mistakes in their choice of
>repertoire for historical reissues.
Well, now we know what YOUR standard is: that which is done in Japan. Fine and
good.
Of course, the fact that the performances may not be top-notch has no bearing at
all on whether or not it's a "mistake" to reissue them. Presumably they might be
released because Kondrashin has a following, the engineering is outstanding, the
repertoire unique or unusual, the secondary exploitation folks need to keep busy
to keep their jobs (you'd understand that rationale, wouldn't you?), or for any
number of reasons--aside from your own (or "Japan's") estimate of their
interpretive merit. But then, I don't expect anything you say to make logical
sense--indeed, your reliability in this respect is quite Japanese.
Dave Hurwitz
Tom Deacon
Hurwitz" <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>
>> You're quite right, of course.
>>
>> What would be the use?
>>
>> Proving that these recordings are classics of their period does seem fairly
>> unnecessary, however. The Japanese rarely make mistakes in their choice of
>> repertoire for historical reissues.
>
> Well, now we know what YOUR standard is: that which is done in Japan. Fine and
> good.
There are many "standards" one can use in addition to one's own ears, of
course. The Japanese, very wisely, in my opinion, reissued all of the EMI
Kogan reissues long before Stuart Brown (of Testament) would appear to have
known they existed. It is often remarked that the Japanese reissue market is
a model for the rest of the world to follow where classical reissues are
concerned. Many members of this forum routinely buy various releases from
Japan, the latest being the scads of RCA Victor Ormandy reissues, all
reissued as is, in their original format, I believe. They also pioneered the
reissue first on LP and then on CD of the much valued Westminster catalogue.
Indeed, there is hardly any label of importance which has not been treated
to careful reissue by the Japanese. They are hardly to be sneered at in the
way Hurwitz would seem to do. Indeed, am I alone in finding his contempt
racial in origin? That might be uncharitable, but knowing Hurwitz, perhaps
that tight-fitting glove slips over his hand rather beautifully.
And now along come these beautiful reissues from the RCA Victor Living
Stereo catalogue by a much lamented musician, Kryill Kondrashin. And here
comes Hurwitz casting aspersions upon these classics of recorded history.
All I can say is " a pox on Hurwitz and his stop-watch induced cynicism".
Be gone! And allow those who admire Kondrashin to do so without fear of the
Hurwitz sneers of contempt being hurled at his artistry. It is worthy of
Koren at his worst, but even there Koren injects a touch of humour, which
almost makes up for the sneers.
Just an aside at this point. I happen to have conducted an interview with
Kondrashin from the CBC in Toronto via line from Montreal, I seem to
remember, for the CBC "Stereo Morning" programme. This turned out to be the
last interview he ever did, or so his widow informed me after his untimely
death in Amsterdam. She requested a copy of the interview, which we provided
to her. Kondrashin had, I think, just left the Soviet Union for the West.
What a shame he did not live to work for much longer in a more hospitable
artistic climate than the Soviet Union under Brezhnev! When I worked for
Philips I made it my business to reissue on CD all of the radio tapes in the
possession of Philips featuring Kondrashin and the Royal Concertgebouw
Orchestra. These recordings had appeared on LP, of course, but not on CD
until the mid 1990s. I remain unsure whether these CDs ever traversed the
Atlantic, as the powers that be in America at the time (Tepper can surely
provide their names) were highly resistant to anything ressembling a
historical recording project, although these recordings were all in very
good stereo. I hope that Tahra picks up the bits and pieces which are left
from Kondrashin's brief love-affair in Amsterdam.
And I leave Hurwitz to his stop-watch with the hope that it keeps him warm
of a winter's night.
TD
Simon Roberts
When I worked for
>Philips I made it my business to reissue on CD all of the radio tapes in the
>possession of Philips featuring Kondrashin and the Royal Concertgebouw
>Orchestra. These recordings had appeared on LP, of course, but not on CD
>until the mid 1990s. I remain unsure whether these CDs ever traversed the
>Atlantic, as the powers that be in America at the time (Tepper can surely
>provide their names) were highly resistant to anything ressembling a
>historical recording project, although these recordings were all in very
>good stereo.
I don't know whether they all did (don't know the full list) but a good handful
did, including, if memory serves, very good performances of the Eroica and
Brahms 1 (I forget what the rest were).
Simon
David Hurwitz
They all did, and some were quiet good, and some where quite uninteresting.
Dave Hurwitz
David Hurwitz
>Japan, the latest being the scads of RCA Victor Ormandy reissues, all
>reissued as is, in their original format, I believe. They also pioneered the
>reissue first on LP and then on CD of the much valued Westminster catalogue.
>Indeed, there is hardly any label of importance which has not been treated
>to careful reissue by the Japanese. They are hardly to be sneered at in the
>way Hurwitz would seem to do.
I am not sneering at them at all, Tom. I am sneering at you; and your need to
assume that just because you happen to like something that it must be "a
standard"--any standard other than your own.
>Indeed, am I alone in finding his contempt
>racial in origin? That might be uncharitable, but knowing Hurwitz, perhaps
>that tight-fitting glove slips over his hand rather beautifully.
You may believe whatever your want, Tom. If is you who generalize about "the
Japanese," and you who introduced them into this discussion, not I. All I
pointed out is that there are many reasons to reissue recordings that have
nothing to do with their being "the standard" by which all others are judged,
and everything else in this post acknowledges this fact, even though you don't
want to admit it.
>
>And now along come these beautiful reissues from the RCA Victor Living
>Stereo catalogue by a much lamented musician, Kryill Kondrashin. And here
>comes Hurwitz casting aspersions upon these classics of recorded history.
>All I can say is " a pox on Hurwitz and his stop-watch induced cynicism".
You're sanctimoniousness is only matched by your refusal to address the point.
>
>Be gone! And allow those who admire Kondrashin to do so without fear of the
>Hurwitz sneers of contempt being hurled at his artistry. It is worthy of
>Koren at his worst, but even there Koren injects a touch of humour, which
>almost makes up for the sneers.
I wonder how many times the above is applicable to you with respect to artists
that others here admire, but you do not. I yield to no one in my admiration for
Kondrashin in general, but this does not mean I have to believe that everything
that he did is "the standard" simply because you think so. I know that hypocrisy
is "the standard" where your behavior here is concerned, but does it always have
to be so obvious?
>When I worked for
>Philips I made it my business to reissue on CD all of the radio tapes in the
>possession of Philips featuring Kondrashin and the Royal Concertgebouw
>Orchestra. These recordings had appeared on LP, of course, but not on CD
>until the mid 1990s.
Several of them did not warrant release and did his reputation no service. But
then, not being Japanese, we can't expect you to know that, can we?
Dave Hurwitz
David Hurwitz
>racial in origin? That might be uncharitable, but knowing Hurwitz, perhaps
>that tight-fitting glove slips over his hand rather beautifully.
>
And while we're on the subject of racist comments, Tom, perhaps you will recall
this remark a propos Mr. Ozawa:
"As I have remarked before, Leonard Slatkin, also, no doubt suffered
more from his looks than from any musical failings. Compared to the
movie-star looks of Bernstein, the movie-composer career of Previn,
the wunderkind reputation of Barenboim, the German aura of Sawallisch,
and the little Japanese pixie that is Seiji Ozawa, poor Leonard came
off always as second or third best."
And then there is this pithy remark via-a-vis "the Japanese":
"Yes, Ozawa's Beethoven cycle has
been released in Japan. (Who knows if it will be released anywhere
else. It doesn't deserve to be. But I am not the one to decide that,
nor are you.)"
Can it be, Tom, that you only value the opinion of "the Japanese" when they
re-release titles by Western performers? Why express such contempt when one of
their own attempts to perform Western classical music and they have the temerity
to record the result and hope that it may be deemed worthy of international
notice? And why such hostility towards those who may believe that a mere "pixie"
like Ozawa may in fact deserve a bigger career to date than that afforded
Leonard Slatkin?
Am I the only one here to detect a racist impulse at the heart of these and
other such comments?
Tell me, Tom, do YOU think that you deserve that benefit of the doubt in this
regard, and if so, wouldn't the spirit of Christian charity to which you so
sanctimoniously pay lip-service suggest that you should extend the same
consideration to others? Even those who you may not especially like? Or is
hypocrisy the only ideology to which you truly subscribe, both in word AND deed?
Dave Hurwitz
Tom Deacon
Hurwitz" <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> Indeed, am I alone in finding his contempt
>> racial in origin? That might be uncharitable, but knowing Hurwitz, perhaps
>> that tight-fitting glove slips over his hand rather beautifully.
>>
>
> And while we're on the subject of racist comments, Tom, perhaps you will
> recall
> this remark a propos Mr. Ozawa:
>
> "As I have remarked before, Leonard Slatkin, also, no doubt suffered
> more from his looks than from any musical failings. Compared to the
> movie-star looks of Bernstein, the movie-composer career of Previn,
> the wunderkind reputation of Barenboim, the German aura of Sawallisch,
> and the little Japanese pixie that is Seiji Ozawa, poor Leonard came
> off always as second or third best."
Ozawa IS a little Japanese pixie.
Would you prefer to think of him as a Sumo wrestler?
> And then there is this pithy remark via-a-vis "the Japanese":
>
> "Yes, Ozawa's Beethoven cycle has
> been released in Japan. (Who knows if it will be released anywhere
> else. It doesn't deserve to be. But I am not the one to decide that,
> nor are you.)"
Not at all directed at "the Japanese". It is clearly directed at the total
unsuitability of Beethoven to Mr. Ozawa and his orchestra.
About as unsuitable as his Mahler with the Boston Symphony.
Or as much of the other recordings he has made over the years. We knew Ozawa
in his "good" days in Toronto when he was a wiz-kid. After that it has been
downhill all the way. In my opinion, now that you seem to have asked for it.
> Can it be, Tom, that you only value the opinion of "the Japanese" when they
> re-release titles by Western performers?
I have enormous respect for the Japanese collectors, who are among the most
knowledgeable I have ever encountered. Virtual walking discographic
encyclopedias! In fact you might go there - oh, please, take him - and learn
a thing or two.
>Why express such contempt when one of
> their own attempts to perform Western classical music and they have the
> temerity
> to record the result and hope that it may be deemed worthy of international
> notice?
I only have dislike for the results of Ozawa's Beethoven cycle, which is
totally irrelevant. Perhaps you feel otherwise, but only your stopwatch
would know for sure.
>And why such hostility towards those who may believe that a mere
> "pixie" like Ozawa may in fact deserve a bigger career to date than that
afforded Leonard Slatkin?
It should have occurred even to someone of your limited mental agility that
the "charisma" of Ozawa weighs as nothing next to the "musicianship" of
Slatkin. I don't give a tinker's damn what Ozawa looks like, but it seems
you do. Perhaps this is the measure of musical value for you? It is not for
me.
> Am I the only one here to detect a racist impulse at the heart of these and
> other such comments?
>
> Tell me, Tom, do YOU think that you deserve that benefit of the doubt in this
> regard, and if so, wouldn't the spirit of Christian charity to which you so
> sanctimoniously pay lip-service suggest that you should extend the same
> consideration to others? Even those who you may not especially like?
One has tried over and over again to be charitable to you, Hurwitz, but you
continue to dash one's attempts with repeated cynicism. So, though Christian
I be, I shall just have to beg forgiveness for my sins in your case.
>Or is hypocrisy the only ideology to which you truly subscribe?
You would seem to be trying to accuse me of saying one thing and thinking
another.
Well, now, this would require much more than a stop watch, Hurwitz. You
would have to have psychic powers to make such a claim. And I just don't
credit you with such elevated abilities. Indeed, I don't credit you with
much and have sufficient evidence to support that conviction. But of course
many infidels revel in the thought that believers cannot really believe what
they believe. It warms them at night, apparently. That and their
stopwatches.
But you just believe or disbelieve what you like.
In the meantime, I will continue to thrill to Mr. Kondrashin's
Khatchaturian, Kabalevsky, Tchaikovsky and Rimsky-Korsakov, which was, I
believe, the subject of this thread.
TD
Van Eyes
> But of course many infidels revel in the thought that believers cannot really believe what
> they believe.
Ahh, I hadn't heard that word for a while--"There are no American
infidels in Baghdad!"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,942979,00.html
Brendan R. Wehrung
Why don't you tell Universal about them and they can add to their "copy
for a fee" library? This would be an actual public service.
Brendan
--
sam6...@earthlink.net
David Hurwitz wrote:
> Tell me, Tom, do YOU think that you deserve that benefit of the doubt in this
> regard, and if so, wouldn't the spirit of Christian charity to which you so
> sanctimoniously pay lip-service suggest that you should extend the same
> consideration to others?
Cut the innuendo, will ya? As far as my information goes, since his
religious organization -- such a fortunate one, by the way, mazel tov!
-- used him, their most precious human asset, as a
congregation-enhancer, window-display, charity-model, Rolls Royce of the
faithful, believers of all denominations in town left their churches,
mosques, and synagogues, and joined the New Prophet.
Unstoppable is the charisma of the chosen!
regards,
SG
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:c5013n$ef2$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca:
> Why don't you tell Universal about them and they can add to their "copy
> for a fee" library? This would be an actual public service.
That would depend on whether there is anybody at Universal who will still
listen to him.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
Tom Deacon
R. Wehrung" <ck...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
I suggest that you make this suggestion yourself. This would not only be an
actual public service, it would give you enormous personal satisfaction.
TD
Tom Deacon
Q9Mcc.18075$Dv2....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net,
"sam6...@earthlink.net" <sam6...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Unstoppable is the charisma of the chosen!
You are beginning to understand.
What is more, your current leader is mounting the crusade.
TD
Tom Deacon
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy?@earthlink.net> wrote:
> That would depend on whether there is anybody at Universal who will still
> listen to him.
There is nobody left at Universal. Are you so out of touch?
TD
Brendan R. Wehrung
I'd rather suggest that they include all Japanese releases from the last 5
years, pressed in editions which are usually sold out by the time they are
talked about here.
Brendan
--