Mozart K.563 recommendation?
Andrej Kluge
The subject says it all. The problem are probably the technical
demands of this peace. I have three recordings:
Heifetz, Primrose & Feuermann (Biddulph): technically flawless of
course, however played too fast overall and fairly much portamento for
my taste.
Kovacs, Nemeth & Banda (Hungaroton) and Vienna String Trio (Award):
more "normalized" tempi, but the performers are not equal to the
virtuose parts all the time and thus often fall out of rhythm which is
usually tiresome and spoils some entire movements.
How do Isaac Stern and company, the Trio Italiano d'Archi (with Franco
Gulli) and the Grumiaux Trio compare? Or any others?
Thanks and Ciao
Andrej
Bob Lombard
the quartet is solid, and Gerhard fits in well.
Bob L
Philip Peters
Andrej Kluge wrote:
>
> Heifetz, Primrose & Feuermann (Biddulph): technically flawless of
> course, however played too fast overall and fairly much portamento for
> my taste.
That's Heifetz for you. Dazzling fiddler, the best ever but not always the
most moving, and always hurrying as if he had a plane to catch. I *love*
his work.
Another interesting historical performance is by Joeph & Lillian Fuchs &
Portelier.
>
>
> Kovacs, Nemeth & Banda (Hungaroton) and Vienna String Trio (Award):
> more "normalized" tempi, but the performers are not equal to the
> virtuose parts all the time and thus often fall out of rhythm which is
> usually tiresome and spoils some entire movements.
>
> How do Isaac Stern and company, the Trio Italiano d'Archi (with Franco
> Gulli) and the Grumiaux Trio compare? Or any others?
>
> Thanks and Ciao
> Andrej
I go by the Grumiaux: clarity, sensitivity, *classical* playing, beautiful
group sound.
Philip
Andrej Kluge
<phi...@p-peters.demon.nl> wrote:
>> course, however played too fast overall and fairly much portamento for
>> my taste.
>
>That's Heifetz for you. Dazzling fiddler, the best ever but not always the
>most moving, and always hurrying as if he had a plane to catch. I *love*
>his work.
Yes I do, too. I listened to the CD just now, maybe I should reshape
my assessment: it's by far the best recording I know of K.563, the
portamento isn't that bad on second glance, and actually it isn't too
fast either (I don't know why I remembered it that way), so let me
just ask: is there a recording that comes close to this one in respect
of phrasing, articulation and virtuosity, but with modern sound, i.e.
from the stereo era?
Thanks,
Andrej
Tony Movshon
wi...@tmb.in-berlin.de (Andrej Kluge) writes:
> How do Isaac Stern and company, the Trio Italiano d'Archi (with Franco
> Gulli) and the Grumiaux Trio compare? Or any others?
Kremer/Kashkashian/Ma and L'Archibudelli (on period instruments) are
both fully up to the technical demands of the piece, and both less
dessicated and reverent than Grumiaux et al.
Still, never mind the portamento and the omitted repeats, the
Heifetz/Primrose/Feuermann recording is -- spectacularly -- the one
for me. I cannot think of another example of chamber string playing of
such sustained perfection.
Tony Movshon mov...@nyu.edu
Center for Neural Science New York University
Simon Roberts
: Moin, (German greeting)
: The subject says it all. The problem are probably the technical
: demands of this peace. I have three recordings:
: Heifetz, Primrose & Feuermann (Biddulph): technically flawless of
: course, however played too fast overall and fairly much portamento for
: my taste.
: Kovacs, Nemeth & Banda (Hungaroton) and Vienna String Trio (Award):
: more "normalized" tempi, but the performers are not equal to the
: virtuose parts all the time and thus often fall out of rhythm which is
: usually tiresome and spoils some entire movements.
: How do Isaac Stern and company, the Trio Italiano d'Archi (with Franco
: Gulli) and the Grumiaux Trio compare? Or any others?
I love Heifetz and co. but understand your misgivings. Stern is fairly
good in a generalized sort of way, but the sound's rather nasty. Grumiaux
et al. are the classic recommendation; I dislike it, except in the finale
-- to these ears it's to refined, genteel and bloodless, tiptoeing around
the music like Murray Perahia in the piano concertos. I haven't heard
Kovacs et al or the Italians.
I would recommend four other recordings instead, two modern, two HIP. For
a bold, characterful, superbly played and recorded modern performance I
would suggest Duman/Causse/Hoffman/EMI (I don't know how it's generally
available; mine's on a very cheap three disc French EMI box that contains
vln cti 3-5, K 364, and the vln/vla duos, all featuring Dumay). If you're
willing to try something very indulgent and extremely characterful
(slowish tempi for the most part, much rubato, very "romantic"), try
Kremer/Kashkashian/Ma on Sony. For HIP there's the fleet, stylish
L'Archibudelli on Sony, and for more relaxed tempi (and more repeats) the
Ricercar Trio on Ricercar; both groups offer superb playing and are
extremely well recorded.
Simon
Otto Renner
wi...@tmb.in-berlin.de (Andrej Kluge) wrote:
> Moin, (German greeting)
>
> The subject says it all. The problem are probably the technical
> demands of this peace. I have three recordings:
>
> Heifetz, Primrose & Feuermann (Biddulph): technically flawless of
> course, however played too fast overall and fairly much portamento for
> my taste.
>
> Kovacs, Nemeth & Banda (Hungaroton) and Vienna String Trio (Award):
> more "normalized" tempi, but the performers are not equal to the
> virtuose parts all the time and thus often fall out of rhythm which is
> usually tiresome and spoils some entire movements.
>
> How do Isaac Stern and company, the Trio Italiano d'Archi (with Franco
> Gulli) and the Grumiaux Trio compare? Or any others?
In addition, would anyone care to comment on the Cummings trio's recent
version on Meridian?
Otto
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Matthew B. Tepper
phi...@p-peters.demon.nl pondered what I'm pondering as follows...
>
>I go by the Grumiaux: clarity, sensitivity, *classical* playing,
>beautiful group sound.
I heartily agree with this recommendation.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/index.htm
My main music page --- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/berlioz.htm
And my science fiction club's home page --- http://www.lasfs.org/
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Andrej Kluge
Roberts) wrote:
>For a bold, characterful, superbly played and recorded modern performance I
>would suggest Duman/Causse/Hoffman/EMI (I don't know how it's generally
What means "bold" in this context? Like, say, the Musikverein Quartet
with K.458?
>If you're willing to try something very indulgent and extremely characterful
>(slowish tempi for the most part, much rubato, very "romantic"), try
>Kremer/Kashkashian/Ma on Sony.
No, sorry, this doesn't work for me - no rubato with Mozart please.
>For HIP there's the fleet, stylish L'Archibudelli on Sony, and for more
>relaxed tempi (and more repeats) the Ricercar Trio on Ricercar
Thanks a lot, I will check them.
I knew I could count on you as always :) (you could earn money with
your advice services, do you know that? ;-)
Ciao
Andrej
Andrej Kluge
wrote:
>Kremer/Kashkashian/Ma and L'Archibudelli (on period instruments) are
>both fully up to the technical demands of the piece
The way Simon described them (much rubato, very "romantic") I'm afraid
I couldn't stand them for long.
[Heifetz/Primrose/Feuermann]
>I cannot think of another example of chamber string playing of
>such sustained perfection.
True, neither can I (so far, anyway).
Thanks
Andrej
Simon Roberts
: On 20 Feb 1999 15:43:54 GMT, si...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Simon
: Roberts) wrote:
: >For a bold, characterful, superbly played and recorded modern performance I
: >would suggest Duman/Causse/Hoffman/EMI (I don't know how it's generally
: What means "bold" in this context? Like, say, the Musikverein Quartet
: with K.458?
Not as fast, but strongly characterized: wide dynamic contrasts, strong
accents, that sort of thing.
: >If you're willing to try something very indulgent and extremely characterful
: >(slowish tempi for the most part, much rubato, very "romantic"), try
: >Kremer/Kashkashian/Ma on Sony.
: No, sorry, this doesn't work for me - no rubato with Mozart please.
None at all? Or only rubato that doesn't yell at you? Either way, you
should probably avoid this....
: >For HIP there's the fleet, stylish L'Archibudelli on Sony, and for more
: >relaxed tempi (and more repeats) the Ricercar Trio on Ricercar
: Thanks a lot, I will check them.
Given your apparent desire for fast tempi and minimal rubato,
L'Archibudelli would perhaps make the most sense for you (unless you don't
like HIP); it's also probably easier to find (it is in the U.S., at least,
where it seems to be deleted -- anyone interested can probably still find
a copy in the Tower Annex in NY and equivalent places.
: I knew I could count on you as always :) (you could earn money with
: your advice services, do you know that? ;-)
I'll send you a bill....
Simon
dirk...@ms14.hinet.net
si...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Simon Roberts) wrote:
> Andrej Kluge (wi...@tmb.in-berlin.de) wrote:
<snip>
> I would recommend four other recordings instead, two modern, two HIP. For
> a bold, characterful, superbly played and recorded modern performance I
> would suggest Duman/Causse/Hoffman/EMI (I don't know how it's generally
> available; mine's on a very cheap three disc French EMI box that contains
> vln cti 3-5, K 364, and the vln/vla duos, all featuring Dumay). If you're
> willing to try something very indulgent and extremely characterful
> (slowish tempi for the most part, much rubato, very "romantic"), try
> Kremer/Kashkashian/Ma on Sony.
I've always been a little puzzled by this characterization of these two
performances by Simon. My impressions are nearly the reverse. I'm not sure
why the tempi in the Kremer/Kashkashian/Ma performance should be called
"slowish"--they are slightly faster in four out of the six movements than
Duman/Causse/Hoffman, if we go by the timings; and I have always thought that
K/K/M were straightforward enough for me, and I don't like my classical works
romanticized for me any more than the next man. Undoubtedly--and I say this
not merely out of a sense of diplomacy toward one of our senior members--I
need to listen to these again, since the Dumay/Causse/Hoffman is a fairly new
acquisition for me, but I'd still suggest that no one need be put off the
K/K/M performance by thinking it may be too romantic, unless they're coming
from a strictly HIP listening background.
--Bill Dirks
The Dumas has also been available as a single disc, also from French EMI.
Simon Roberts
: I've always been a little puzzled by this characterization of these two
: performances by Simon. My impressions are nearly the reverse. I'm not sure
: why the tempi in the Kremer/Kashkashian/Ma performance should be called
: "slowish"--they are slightly faster in four out of the six movements than
: Duman/Causse/Hoffman, if we go by the timings; and I have always thought that
: K/K/M were straightforward enough for me, and I don't like my classical works
: romanticized for me any more than the next man. Undoubtedly--and I say this
: not merely out of a sense of diplomacy toward one of our senior members--I
: need to listen to these again, since the Dumay/Causse/Hoffman is a fairly new
: acquisition for me, but I'd still suggest that no one need be put off the
: K/K/M performance by thinking it may be too romantic, unless they're coming
: from a strictly HIP listening background.
No, you're right about overall timings; what I meant to say and sloppily
didn't is that Kremer et al are often much slower and, because of their
"romantic indulgences" (or whatever you want to call it) sometimes quicker
too -- all in the same movement. This is particularly noticeable in the
first movement, where although the overall time is much the same, Kremer
et al. start out at about half the tempo that Dumay and co adopt but
thereafter dramatically speed up with Kremer's fast ascending passage and
get even faster with Ma's descending one. It's almost as though each
instrument has its own tempo when playing alone and I defy anyone to tell
in the first minute or so whether there's a basic tempo in Kremer's
performance and, if there is, what it is. Dumay and co. are rather free
too, but within a much narrower range of tempi.
Simon
dirk...@ms14.hinet.net
Well, I've listened to these again and come up with some conclusions of my
own. The first is that I prefer the Kremer disc, for a variety of reasons. I
still would not characterize the Kremer at all the way you do--I'll grant
that there are tempo changes, but as someone who is sensitive to abrupt or
extreme ones (and generally dislikes them) I've never heard anything that
puts me off. And the incisiveness of their playing is what makes me still
characterize this as having a "classical", rather than "romantic" feel. The
playing seems better to me as well, and overall it strikes me as more tightly
knit, and for my money, more dramatic and satisfying, particularly in the two
longer opening movements. Though when you talk about each player having their
own tempo, it does ring a bell--not that I ever noticed it in terms of tempo,
specifically, but I did feel on first listening that they had not fully
adapted to each other's styles. However, that feeling has abated since then.
--Bill Dirks