CSO Box Sets- Attention Henry
Michael Weston
Can someone please post the contents of the CSO "First Hundred Years" box
set? The CSO website has decided that the best way to sell this and the
more recent "Collectors' Choice" sets is to provide a list of musical
works included with links to sound clips. There is no full listing
including performers (conductor or soloist) or dates. Not only are the
conductors not listed with the specific piece performed, they're not
listed at all. One can only assume that the people behind this (drab and
cluttered, I'm sorry to say) website are not really familiar with the
artform they are seeking to promote. They are also standing in the way of
me giving them my money- I'll bet they can understand that.
Michael Weston
Andrew Hatchell
Yikes. I hadn't looked at the CSO's Web site in a while. It is rather
uninspiring. At least the CSO Store's stuff is available for sale now; it
didn't used to be. But they sure do need to add more info. Anyways,
here's the info on the "The First 100 Years" set, typed by me. My fingers
are cold, so you'll have to excuse any typos:
Disc 1:
Mendelssohn: Wedding March from Incidental Music for A Midsummer Night's Dream,
Op. 61.
Frederic Stock, Conductor
Recorded (acoustically) May 1, 1916; Columbia Studios, NYC
Wagner (arr. Theodore Thomas): "Traume" from Wesendonk Lieder
Frederick Stock, Conductor
Recorded December 18, 1928; Goodman Theater, Chicago
Brahms (orch. Dvorak): Hungarian Dances Nos. 17-21
Frederick Stock, Conductor
Nos. 17-19 Recorded December 21, 1926;
Nos. 20-21 Recorded December 22, 1926; Orchestra Hall, Chicago
Stock: Symphonic Waltz, Op. 8
Frederick Stock, Conductor
Recorded December 23, 1930; Orchestra Hall
Liadov: Baba-Yaga, Op. 56
Frederick Stock, Conductor
Recorded April 26, 1941; Orchestra Hall
Walton: Scapino, A Comedy Overture
Frederick Stock, Conductor
Recorded April 26, 1941; Orchestra Hall
Ernst Toch: Pinocchio, A Merry Overture
Frederick Stock, Conductor
Recorded April 26, 1941; Orchestra Hall
Brahms: Symphony No. 3
Frederick Stock, Conductor
Recorded November 23, 1940; Liederkranz Hall or Carnegie Hall, NYC
Disc 2
Emil Nikolaus von Reznicek: Overture to Donna Diana
Frederick Stock, Conductor
Recorded April 25, 1941; Orchestra Hall
R. Strauss: Till Eulenspiegel's Merry Pranks
Frederick Stock, Conductor
Recorded live from WGN broadcast of October 10, 1940; Orchestra Hall
Prokofiev: Scythian Suite
Desire Defauw, Conductor
Recorded March 16, 1945; Orchestra Hall
Franck: Le chasseur maudit
Desire Defauw, Conductor
Recorded April 12, 1946; Orchestra Hall
R. Strauss: Death and Transfiguration
Desire Defauw, Conductor
Recorded live from WCFL broadcast of March 19, 1947; Palace Theatre,
Hamilton, Ontario
Disc 3:
Wagner: Ride of the Valkyries from Die Walkure
Artur Rodzinski, Conductor
Recorded live from WCFL broadcast of April 21, 1948; Eighth Street
Theatre, Chicago
Mendelssohn: Symphony No. 3
Artur Rodzinski, Conductor
Recorded November 18 and December 13, 1947; Orchestra Hall
Beethoven: Piano Concerto No. 5
Josef Hofmann, Piano
Hans Lange, Conductor
Recorded live from WGN broadcast of December 5, 1940; Orchestra
Hall
Disc 4:
Hindemith: Symphonic Metamorphosis on Themes of Carl Maria von Weber
Rafael Kubelik, Conductor
Recorded April 3, 1953; Orchestar Hall
Roussel: Symphony No. 3
Rafael Kubelik, Conductor
Recorded live November 3, 4, and 6, 1983 by WFMT; Orchestra Hall
Mussorgsky (orch. Ravel): Pictures at an Exhibition
Rafael Kubelik, Conductor
Recorded April 23-24, 1951; Orchestra Hall
Disc 5:
Bartok: Suite from The Miraculous Mandarin
Istvan Kertesz, Conductor
Recorded live September 26-27, 1968 by WFMT; Orchestra Hall
Ginastera: Dances from the Ballet Estancia
Seiji Ozawa, Conductor
Recorded live June 27, 1967 by WFMT; Ravinia Festival
Stravinsky: Symphony of Psalms
Chicago Symphony Chorus (Margaret Hillis, Director)
James Levine, Conductor
Recorded live June 30, 1989 by WFMT; Ravinia Festival
Mahler: Symphony No. 8
Carol Neblett, Judith Blegen, Jann Jaffe, Sopranos
Isola Jones, Birgit Finnilae, Contraltos
Kenneth Riegel, Tenor
Ryan Edwards, Baritone
John Cheek, Bass
Glen Ellyn Children's Chorus (Doreen Rao, Director)
Chicago Symphony Chorus (Margaret Hillis, Director)
James Levine, Conductor
Recorded live July 6, 1979 by WFMT; Ravinia Festival
Disc 6:
Brahms: Academic Festival Overture
Paul Hindemith, Conductor
Recorded live April 7, 1963 by WGN TV; WGN Studios, Chicago
Ravel: La valse
Fritz Reiner, Conductor
Recorded live March 25, 1960 by WFMT; Orchestra Hall
Satie (orch. Debussy): Gymnopedies Nos. 1 & 3
Fritz Reiner, Conductor
Recorded live March 25, 1960 by WFMT; Orchestra Hall
Prokofiev: Symphony No. 5
Fritz Reiner, Conductor
Recorded live February 27, 1958 by WBAI; Orchestra Hall
Disc 7:
Copland: Suite from The Tender Land
Fritz Reiner, Conductor
World premiere performance
Recorded live April 10, 1958 by WBAI; Orchestra Hall
Kodaly: Dances of Galanta
Fritz Reiner, Conductor
Recorded live February 10, 1954 by WGN-TV; WGN Studios, Chicago
Berlioz: Roman Carnival Overture
Pierre Monteux, Conductor
Recorded live January 1, 1961 by WGN-TV; Medinah Temple, Chicago
Bax: The Garden of Fand
Leonard Slatkin, Conductor
Recorded live February 16-18, 1984 by WFMT; Orchestra Hall
Miaskovsky: Symphony No. 21
Morton Gould, Conductor
Recorded January 30, 1968; Medinah Temple, Chicago
Disc 8:
Martinon: Overture for a Greek Tragedy
Jean Martinon, Conductor
Recorded live May 29, 1967 by WFMT; Cahn Auditorium, Evanston
Mahler: Symphony No. 10 (Cooke version)
Jean Martinon, Conductor
Recorded live May 19-20, 1966 by WFMT; Orchestra Hall
Disc 9:
Fred Fisher: Chicago
Benny Goodman, Clarinet
Morton Gould, Conductor
Recorded live June 18, 1966 by WFMT; Orchestra Hall
Weill: Suite from Little Three Penny Music for Wind Ensemble
Erich Leinsdorf, Conductor
Recorded live May 23-25, 1985 by WFMT; Orchestra Hall
Carl Ruggles: Angels
Erich Leinsdorf, Conductor
Recorded live December 15-17, 1983 by WFMT; Orchestra Hall
Wagner: A Faust Overture
Claudio Abbado, Conductor
Recorded live February 3-5, 1983 by WFMT; Orchestra Hall
Mussorgsky: Coronation Scene from Boris Godunov (original version)
Philip Langridge, Tenor (Prince Shuisky)
Ruggero Raimondi, Bass (Borid Godunov)
Chicago Symphony Chorus (Margaret Hillis, Director)
Claudio Abbado, Conductor
Recorded live November 1, 2, 4, 1984 by WFMT; Orchestra Hall
Scriabin: Poem of Ecstasy
Daniel Barenboim, Conductor
Recorded live December 13, 14, 16, 1984 by WFMT; Orchestra Hall
Brahms: Piano Concerto No. 2
Daniel Barenboim, Piano
Carlo Mariua Giulini, Conductor
Recorded live November 28, 1977 by WFMT; Orchestra Hall
Shulamit Ran: Concerto for Orchestra
Daniel Barenboim, Conductor
Recorded live October 20-22, 25, 1988 by WFMT; Orchestra Hall
Disc 11:
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 10
Leopold Stokowski, Conductor
Recorded live March 24, 1966 by WFMT; Orchestra Hall
Kodaly: Psalmus hungaricus
Dennis Bailey, Tenor
Glen Ellyn Children's Chorus (Doreen Rao, Director)
Chicago Symphony Chorus (Margaret Hillis, Director)
Sir Georg Solti, Conductor
Recorded live November 18-20, 1982 by WFMT; Orchestra Hall
Disc 12:
Wagner: "Dich teure Halle" from Tannhauser
Leontyne Price, Soprano
Sir Georg Solti, Conductor
Recorded live April 29, 1980 by WFMT; Orchestra Hall
Corigliano: Tournaments Overture
Sir Georg Solti, Conductor
Recorded live October 4-6, 1984 by WFMT; Orchestra Hall
Mozart: Symphony No. 25
Sir Georg Solti, Conductor
Recorded live April 26-28, 1984 by WFMT; Orchestra Hall
Lutoslawski: Symphony No. 3
Sir Georg Solti, Conductor
World premiere performance
Recorded live September 29-30, October 1, 1983 by WFMT;
Orchestra Hall
Ravel: Suite No. 2 from Daphnis and Chloe
Sir Georg Solti, Conductor
Recorded live January 15-17, 20, 1987 by WFMT; Orchestra Hall
Andrew
Terrymelin
>on the North Shore) have at least six copies of the box set. All you
>need is a cd burner, about $1.50 worth of blank cd's and you're off
>and running.
Nice suggestion for illegally copying material that the CSO owns. The set is
worth the $225. Go buy it rather than committing a crime.
Terry Ellsworth
TD
things to different people.
"Terrymelin" <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001208073459...@ng-cd1.aol.com...
Vadim Batitsky
withness the MET greedy approach to live opera brodcasts. Now, I pay
lots of taxes to the City of New York, some of which goes to their
library. So certainly I feel O.K. to borrow any CD I like. As for
copying it, I keep in mind that NYC library already paid for the CD in
part with MY TAX MONEY! So, given that I would neither sell nor
distribute CD copies, I'd have no moral scruples about to making a copy
for my private use(though, in actuality, I can't since I don't have a
CD burner).
Vadim.
In article <90qnj0$tp$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Commspkmn
(as opposed to thousands of honest music lovers who borrow CD's from
libraries in order to time-shift their enjoyment) it's an excellent
suggestion. I've just about exhausted my library's collection of
classical CD's and anxiously await their new releases every weekend.
Mark >>
My understanding is that the CSO commemorative sets are fundraisers for the
Orchestra. Something to keep in mind, perhaps, when thinking about making a
copy on a CD burner.
Ken Meltzer
TD
"Commspkmn" <comm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001208132054...@ng-ci1.aol.com...
They might raise more funds if they made them generally available at normal
prices, rather than as, in effect, gifts to substantial donors.
Michael Weston
: library. So certainly I feel O.K. to borrow any CD I like. As for
: copying it, I keep in mind that NYC library already paid for the CD in
: part with MY TAX MONEY! So, given that I would neither sell nor
Logic like this never stands up to true accounting. Strictly speaking,
the taxes you pay do not give you the right to repro the disks. It gives
you the right to check them out of the library.
I have a burner myself and am frankly a bit surprised at how we complain
about how the record companies fail to provide us with the disks we want,
yet readily burn copies of items that are commercially available. (I have
a few disks along these lines that make me guilty as anyone).
As for general sentiment that the prices for these box sets is outrageous,
you don't know the costs involved. Generally they're more than nicely
packaged and hardly more expensive on a per-disk basis than a full-price
disk. Given the economies of scale, we should be thankful that they're
not more expensive. I can't afford to get them all, but I don't whine
about it, either.
I regret this has become a thread about cd-burn ethics, considering the
item I asked about is something whose existence is something we can hardly
take for granted. If you have a (selfish) justification as to why you are
entitled to your burn copy, you ought to keep it to yourself.
michael weston
Terrymelin
>(as opposed to thousands of honest music lovers who borrow CD's from
>libraries in order to time-shift their enjoyment) it's an excellent
>suggestion. I'v
I don't think it's sanctimonious to suggest someone not commit a criminal act
which is what the poster suggested. I also don't think it is either ethical or
moral to take a product that is owned by one entity and break the copyright by
copying it for yourself. It's just plain disgusting to do that.
The CSO owns the copyright and the library bought a copy legally. You have a
right to listen to it. You don't have any right to copy it.
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>prices, rather than as, in effect, gifts to substantial donors.
So because you consider the item overpriced that's gives someone a right to
"steal" it? I like that logic. I think BMW 740il's are too expensive. Perhaps I
should just take one.
Terry Ellsworth
TD
And you're happy with that analogy? Not that what I wrote above is related
to copyright law in any way.
Michael Weston
: Excuse me, but isn't RMCR a _public_ Uesnet forum for sharing of ideas
: and opinions? or are we missing something...?
We all use computers and are familiar with CD technology. If I want to
break the law by burning commercially available disks, I don't need help.
I don't have to show one ounce of respect to those who feel comfortable
advocating copyright infringement in a public forum.
It seems to me especially stupid and disrespectful to bring it
up with regard to a CSO box set considering the source of the disks and
the fortunate fact that we share company here with members of the CSO
staff.
The fact of the matter, though, is that duplication of any
commercially available disks that one does not own is ethically wrong.
Anyone who thinks they're somehow justified to take such steps is selfish,
deluded and a lawbreaker.
mw
Michael Weston
: And you're happy with that analogy? Not that what I wrote above is related
: to copyright law in any way.
I'd be impressed if you picked a fight with the copyright code instead,
but I gather you know that one is a losing battle.
mw
Tony Movshon
> Can someone please post the contents of the CSO "First Hundred Years" box
> set? The CSO website has decided that the best way to sell this and the
> more recent "Collectors' Choice" sets is to provide a list of musical
> works included with links to sound clips.
I thought I had stumbled onto a more complete listing, and stumbled onto
it again tonight. It's under "press releases". Go figure.
http://www.chicagosymph.org/atc_press21.taf
--
Tony Movshon mov...@nyu.edu
TD
"Michael Weston" <rush...@interaccess.com> wrote in message
news:t334s4c...@corp.supernews.com...
I believe in England anyone who doesn't go to church on Christmas Day is a
lawbreaker.
Hat NYC 62
up with regard to a CSO box set considering the source of the disks and
the fortunate fact that we share company here with members of the CSO
staff.
The fact of the matter, though, is that duplication of any
commercially available disks that one does not own is ethically wrong.
Anyone who thinks they're somehow justified to take such steps is selfish,
deluded and a lawbreaker.
>>
These are good points, but there is a better reason as well. We all bitch and
moan constantly about the unavailability of so much material. Then more
bitching about the quality of what is out there. If any of you are serious
about supporting high quality rereleases of great performances, live or
commercial, you'll put your money where your mouth is and make sure those who
put the effort forth to bring us this stuff find it worthwhile to do so.
Furthermore, $225 for 12 cds is not all that expensive. I bet we have all spent
more on much less worthy items.
But, if you insist on being a pirate, don't EVER complain about the lack of
good releases or new recordings.
David Hattner, musician, NYC
HenryFogel
The people who set up all the information on the CSO website goofed (we have
talked about it), and neglected to include the performers in listing the
contents of the set. They now know that was a mistake, and it is on a list of
things to be corrected or improved regarding the website.
However, I am happy to provide here a complete list of performers and contents:
CD1:
WAGNER: Hail, Bright Abode from Tannhauser (Stock - Century of Progress 1933)
BEETHOVEN Sym 1 (Fritz Busch 1949)
SCHUBERT Sym 8 (Walter - 1958)
SCHUMANN Manfred Ov (Walter - 1956)
RAMEAU/D'INDY Dardanus Suite
(Munch - 1963)
CD2
WAGNER Lohengrin Prelude 3 (Rodzinski,
1948)
BEETHOVEN Sym 2 (Stokowski - 1962)
BEETHOVEN Sym 7 (Ferencsik 1979)
CD3
TCHAIKOVSKY Sym 4 (Reiner 1957)
PROKOFIEV Sym 3 (Kondrashin 1976)
CD4
BRUCKNER: Sym 7: First Movement
(Hindemith 1963)
STRAUSS: Burger als Edelmann: Suite
(Rosbaud 1960)
MAHLER Sym 3 (Martinon 1967)
CD5
Mahler Sym 3 - continued
SHAPEY Rituals (Shapey 1966)
CD6
WAGNER Meistersinger, Prelude Act 3
(Monteux 1961)
BRUCKNER Sym 7 (Tennstedt 1984)
CD7
VAUGHAN WILLIAMS Sym 2 "London"
(Sargent 1967)
COPLAND Preamble for a Solemn Occasion. (Marian Anderson, narr; Ozawa cond;
1968)
W SCHUMAN Sym 3 (Slatkin, 1986)
CD8
BIZET Patrie Ov (Defauw 1947)
DEBUSSY/ANSERMET Ephigraphes
Antiques. (Ansermet 1968)
DEBUSSY/LEINSDORF Pelleas Preludes and Interludes (Leinsdorf 1986)
COPLAND Billy the Kid. (Levine 1981)
CD9
ROUSSEL Sym 3 (Munch 1967)
CORIGLIANO Campane di Ravello
(Kenneth Jean, 1987)
BARTOK Two Portraits. (Magad, Solti '87)
CARTER Variations for Orch (Solti 1982)
BUSONI Lustspiel Ov (Barenboim 1996)
CD10
MOZART Abduction from the Seraglio Ov (with Busoni ending - Barenboim 1996)
MOZART Divertimento K. 251 - abridged.
(Giulini, 1967)
BEETHOVEN Christ on the Mount of Olives (Aikin, Heppner, Pape, CSO Chorus,
Barenboim 1996)
There you have it.
Henry Fogel
John Harkness
Or works for an Italian record label.
John Harkness
TD
"Hat NYC 62" <hatn...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001209094311...@ng-fm1.aol.com...
Just to avoid accusations that may come up, I have never yet made an illegal
copy of an available disc. I have far too many cds already. Three points,
however:
1. $225 is a lot of money for some people, especially if they aren't
interested in the entire set.
2. I disagree with the sentiment in your last sentence, if you include as a
'pirate' someone making a copy for his own use of an item he would not
otherwise have purchased because he could not afford it. Why shouldn't such
a person complain about, say, knuckleheads at EMI releasing the Lener
Quartet's Beethoven cycle in Japan and not in Europe?
3. If we're to be so strict about royalties, where do I apply for refunds
for the recordings I have bought in different formats, in different
editions, included as fillers on multiple discs, or to replace damaged
copies?
Tripletz
aren't reprinting. I would gladly pay for the old set but it ain't available.
A highly placed CSO Official who will go nameless here has told me that if I
copy a set theat they have no intention of reissuing that it's no skin of his
nose.
HenryFogel
>These are good points, but there is a better reason as well. We all bitch and
>moan constantly about the unavailability of so much material. Then more
>bitching about the quality of what is out there. If any of you are serious
>about supporting high quality rereleases of great performances, live or
>commercial, you'll put your money where your mouth is and make sure those who
>put the effort forth to bring us this stuff find it worthwhile to do so.
>
>Furthermore, $225 for 12 cds is not all that expensive. I bet we have all
>spent
>more on much less worthy items.
>
>But, if you insist on being a pirate, don't EVER complain about the lack of
>good releases or new recordings.
>
>David Hattner, musician, NYC
>
I appreciate the supportive remarks, but in the interest of accuracy I must
correct one point in David's post -- the set is 10 CDs. The fact is that $225
for ten discs is above the cost of a traditional CD -- but the production costs
of these orchestra-related archival CDs is completely different from regular
commercial recordings. The CSO was unable to obtain underwriting to help cover
some of the production and musician-compensation costs, and this made the $225
price essential if this was to in any way be a fundraiser, which was part of
its intention. (The other part being to make these performances available in
professional quality transfers to music lovers who wished them)
Henry Fogel
Michael Weston
: >Tthey sold out the original printing (of the first commemorative set) and they
: aren't reprinting. I would gladly pay for the old set but it ain't available.
: A highly placed CSO Official who will go nameless here has told me that if I
: copy a set theat they have no intention of reissuing that it's no skin of his
: nose.
So are the two copies I saw at the CSO store a few weeks ago the last
ones? Tell me that you found this information out in the past two weeks,
and I'll believe you. Otherwise, I can assure you that they are not sold
out.
mw
HenryFogel
>I
>: copy a set theat they have no intention of reissuing that it's no skin of
>his
>: nose.
>
>So are the two copies I saw at the CSO store a few weeks ago the last
>ones? Tell me that you found this information out in the past two weeks,
>and I'll believe you. Otherwise, I can assure you that they are not sold
>out.
>
>mw
I don't know who told you that -- but it certainly could not have related to
the CSO2000 collection, which is still "in print" and available at the CSO
Store and the CSO Website. Clearly, it is "skin off the CSO's nose" if people
make copies of it rather than purchase it.
Henry Fogel
John L. Holubiak
100th anniversary box ("The First 100 Years") issued about 10 years ago and
not the more recent collection. Is the first set now out-of-print?
John
HenryFogel
>From: "John L. Holubiak" Charm...@uswest.net
>Date: 12/09/00 12:44 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <z%uY5.1719$iZ5.2...@news.uswest.net>
>
>Henry, I believe the original posting was asking about the contents of the
>100th anniversary box ("The First 100 Years") issued about 10 years ago and
>not the more recent collection. Is the first set now out-of-print?
>
>John
>
There are still some of the Centennial sets available.
Henry Fogel
Michael Weston
: I submit this for the folks out there who aren't into this phoney
: piety about those "pi-rates" out there and bogus issues about the
: recording losing money...and also wish to listen and re-listen to
: these masterpieces without paying a lung for them.
: M.T.
My observation that public argument for violating copyright law
amounted to merely selfishness and delusion was not motivated by
religious respect for the law. I've done it too. But I'm not so
stupid or prideful that I feel good proclaiming to the world that
laws don't matter and that I'm entitled to something for nothing.
mw
Tripletz
Just so I know what the copyright law actually is--I was under the impression
that we were allowed to make copies of recorded work for our own personal use,
but that we were forbidden from then distributing copies for profit. Am I
wrong about this?
Michael Weston
: Just so I know what the copyright law actually is--I was under the impression
: that we were allowed to make copies of recorded work for our own personal use,
: but that we were forbidden from then distributing copies for profit. Am I
: wrong about this?
Let me first say that I am not a lawyer. However, I did work in an
industry where we received annual instruction on the bounds of "fair use"
and copyright law, and I would wager that I have as good an understanding
of these restrictions as anyone who is not a lawyer or a professional
focused in this area.
Can you make a copy of a LP/tape/CD for your personal use?
If you own a copy of the recording in question, sure. If you don't, the
answer is no. I used to tape my LP's for the sake of durability and
transport. That was legal. Your primary and perhaps solitary right
regarding a recording you don't own is that you can listen to it. But you
can't duplicate it. Not for yourself, not as a gift for a friend, not as
an educational handout in your college music class.
The restrictions we are talking about cover all manner of items that can
be easily duplicated. Can I legally copy software that I do not own if it
is for my personal use? No. How about fonts that a friend has- can
I copy them for my own use? Not unless you gain license, most often
through purchase. Images that I find on the web- can I use them
in the newsletter for my charity organization? No. (Not unless they're
labeled "public domain.") Can I make full copies of books on a copy
machine? No. The laws regarding how much copying (what portion of a book
or article) is ok are quite restrictive. Can I legally copy recordings,
whether visual or audio, that I borrow from my library? No.
The fact that CD duplication is readily possible does not change these
facts. Copyright holders could not prevent the distribution of the
technology, so they came up with the audio components that only accept
"audio cd's" where part of the purchase price goes to the royalty
companies. And that system is set up so that one cannot endlessly
duplicate a disk. Copying a copy produces a d-a-d signal conversion that
amounts to some degree of signal/data loss.
I'd love an expert in thsi area to spell out in legal terms exactly where
the boundaries are. But it is an easy call to say that I'm not entitled
to listen to these CSO disks whenever I want unless I own a copy bought
from the CSO.
mw
TD
> The fact that CD duplication is readily possible does not change these
> facts. Copyright holders could not prevent the distribution of the
> technology, so they came up with the audio components that only accept
> "audio cd's" where part of the purchase price goes to the royalty
> companies. And that system is set up so that one cannot endlessly
> duplicate a disk. Copying a copy produces a d-a-d signal conversion that
> amounts to some degree of signal/data loss.
So the system is set up to allow one copy to be made, and the record
companies get royalties on the machines? Could that not be construed as
tacit permission?
Clovis Lark
You are wrong.
Michael Weston
: So the system is set up to allow one copy to be made, and the record
: companies get royalties on the machines? Could that not be construed as
: tacit permission?
We've all said that the laws allow for one copy to be made of music one
owns. That's the way all these machines are marketed- "make mixes of your
favorites (pop tunes, etc.). There is still nothing in the law that gives
permission for duplicating items not already owned, whatever you would
like to read into this. If there was a $10 markup on each audio-cdr, then
you could make the argument that those who receive the royalties see the
duplication activity as replacing the act of purchase. That doesn't seem
to fly (in my sense of non-legal interpretation) given the current
pricing system.
mw
TD
Well, I wish someone would pay me a small royalty for nothing at all, and
allow me to retain the right to enforce my copyrights regardless.
Terrymelin
>that we were allowed to make copies of recorded work for our own personal
>use,
>but that we were
I think that you are correct but the qualifier is that you must be the original
purchaser of the item. Not your local library. That's called theft.
Terry Ellsworth
Michael Weston
Can someone who has firsthand knowledge of copyright law explain the
boundaries established regarding the right to duplicate disks? This has
been going on in another thread, but what has been missing is someone to
say "this is the law; theses are the factual guidelines for what
determines your duplication activity as legal or not."
My basic motivation here is to counter those who have come to honestly
believe that "my duplication of this recording that I don't own is OK
because of X." Is there any circumstance that would permit such a
situation?
Additionally, can someone outline the reasoning behind the surcharge on
audio cd-rs that goes to royalty companies? Who actually gets the money
and how is this distributed? Is this intended to offset revenue losses
for pop music only, or does the Seagram-Universal monster get some of that
money, too?
I realize this is almost off-topic, but any thorough answer would be
greatly appreciated.
mw
Clovis Lark (cl...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
: > Just so I know what the copyright law actually is--I was under the impression
TD
So if I bought something, copied it and then sold the original, or took it
back to the shop and exchanged it, as original purchaser I would be exempt?
If so, the law is as much of an ass as its failure to provide for recompense
in cases of multiple purchase would suggest.
Clovis Lark
> Can someone who has firsthand knowledge of copyright law explain the
> boundaries established regarding the right to duplicate disks? This has
> been going on in another thread, but what has been missing is someone to
> say "this is the law; theses are the factual guidelines for what
> determines your duplication activity as legal or not."
You should contact a copyright attorney to get the facts. There are a
slew of "gray" areas not practically enforceable which many construe as a
right. They are not.
Terrymelin
>believe that "my duplication of this recording that I don't own is OK
>because of X." Is there any circumstance that would permit such a
>situation?
>
Well, I copy discs and I believe what I'm doing is legal and ethical. My wife
and I have two homes. I like to have a copy of my favorite recordings (far too
many to even think about) in both homes. So in prior years I used to buy two
copies of each. Now, instead, I buy one copy for one home; and make a duplicate
of it for the second home.
I think I'm being ethical and legal as I own at least one original of each
recording that I pay for.
Terry Ellsworth
TD
But if your wife is in one home and you're in another, would you be
comfortable if you were both listening to the same recording at the same
time? And do you have a provision in your will to prevent the two sets
passing into separate ownership?
Brendan R. Wehrung
> argued against any type of fair use, especially where taping programs
> off one's TV and radio would violate copywrite laws and cause
> irrepairable harm to the entertainment industry, the courts ruled in
> favor of fair use -- including the taping of TV and radio programs as
> well as one's purchased movies and music for personal use.
>
> One can logically deduce, then, that time-shifting cd's borrowed from
> a public library would fall under fair use -- the same as recording a
> broadcast concert or TV program.
>
That's almost as good as what the Supreme Court heard today. The criteria
is the spending of money. The library owns the disc, you don't.
I think the manufactureres are a bunch of greedy people who have pushed
the boundaries of copyright far beyond what our country's founders would
have found acceptable for fair dissemination of its culture, but the law
is the law.
Brendan
TD
"Brendan R. Wehrung" <ck...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:913chn$2m9$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
I don't know about the US, but in the UK you usually have to pay a fee (or
an annual membership) to hire a cd from a library, and you pay a licence fee
to get TV broadcasts.
Clovis Lark
THe library owns the item. THey maintain rights to lend it. The
publisher retains reporduction and sales rights.
TD
"Clovis Lark" <cl...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:913erd$2qa$2...@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu...
And Mark's point about the Betamax case?
Clovis Lark
Without permission, you are not doing this legally. Perhaps you'd care to
look at the small print on your originals? Here is what is printed around
the edge of DG's CD's:
" All rights of the producer and of the owner of the work reproduced
reserved. Unauthorized copying, hiring, lending, public performances and
broadcasting of this record prohibited."
You paid for a single copy. Your ownership does not give you rights of
reproduction.
> Terry Ellsworth
D Krause
Clovis Lark <cl...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
> You paid for a single copy. Your ownership does not give you rights
> of
> reproduction.
You are incorrect about this. Certainly, ownership of a copy of a
recording, such as a CD, does not give anyone _unlimited_ "rights of
reproduction." But while the rights under the fair use provisions of
federal law are limited, they nevertheless exist; cf. the RIAA's
summary at http://www.riaa.org/Copyright-Laws-4.cfm , of the Audio Home
Recording Act of 1992 (AHRA):
"This 1992 legislation exempts consumers from lawsuits for copyright
violations when they record music for private, noncommercial use; eases
access to advanced digital audio recording technologies; provides for
the payment of modest royalties to songwriters and recording artists
and companies; and mandates the inclusion of serial copying management
technology in all consumer digital audio recorders to limit multi-
generation audio copying (i.e., making copies of copies).
"In general, the AHRA covers devices that are designed or marketed for
the primary purpose of making digital musical recordings. Digital audio
cassette players, minidiscs, and DAT players are devices covered by the
AHRA. This law will also apply to all future digital audio recording
technologies, so Congress will not be forced to revisit the issue as
each new product becomes available.
"The AHRA provides that manufacturers (not consumers) of covered
devices must: (1) register with the Copyright Office; (2) pay a
statutory royalty on each device and piece of media sold; and (3)
implement serial copyright management technology (such as SCMS) which
prevents copies of copies. In exchange for this, the manufacturers of
the devices receive statutory immunity from infringement based on the
use of those devices by consumers. To learn more about the
administration of the royalties paid on recording devices and media,
see the section on AARC.
"Multipurpose devices, such as a general computer or a CD-ROM drive,
are not covered by the AHRA. This means that they are not required to
pay royalties or incorporate SCMS protections. It also means, however,
that neither manufacturers of the devices, nor the consumers who use
them, receive immunity from suit for copyright infringement."
Thus, if an individual uses a recording device that is "designed or
marketed for the primary purpose of making digital musical recordings"
and which uses blank media on which the statutory royalty is paid, for
the purpose of making a copy of a CD, which is owned by that
individual, the copy being for his or her personal, non-commercial use,
then that individual is in the clear, _according to federal law_, and
cannot be sued for copyright infringement. If, however, that
individual uses a general purpose device, such as a computer CD-R
burner to do the copying, using CD-R blanks on which the statutory
royalty is not paid, then that individual is _not_ legally in the
clear, and can be sued for copyright infringement, even if the copy is
for his or her own personal, non-commercial use.
And that's the law.
Happy listening.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Brendan R. Wehrung
TV broadcasts have been paid for and are offered to the public to
accompany advertizing. Even the music you hear has a fee paid on it. I
guess the act of offering, with agreement between the parties that no
charge would be levied puts it into the fair use category. You still
can't sell a ape you made, just watch it.
Brendan
Michael Weston
: So if I bought something, copied it and then sold the original, or took it
: back to the shop and exchanged it, as original purchaser I would be exempt?
: If so, the law is as much of an ass as its failure to provide for recompense
: in cases of multiple purchase would suggest.
I think upon loss of the original, you would lose all rights to the
duplicate. I'm still hoping someone with expertise can drop in and provide
authority here.
mw
Michael Weston
: One can logically deduce, then, that time-shifting cd's borrowed from
: a public library would fall under fair use -- the same as recording a
: broadcast concert or TV program.
There is a huge difference, whatever you imagination may allow. CD's are
a physical commodity. The copyright code exists to reinforce the rights
of the copyright holder and owner. Where the practice of duplicating
library cd's substitutes for purchase and thereby deprives the copyright
holder due recompense, you can bet it is illegal.
mw
Michael Weston
: THe library owns the item. THey maintain rights to lend it. The
: publisher retains reporduction and sales rights.
You seem to have spelled out the underlying truth to this discussion as
effectively as I could have wished. Is there anyone here who really wants
to argue against this?
mw
Michael Weston
: > THe library owns the item. THey maintain rights to lend it. The
: > publisher retains reporduction and sales rights.
:
: And Mark's point about the Betamax case?
Inaplicable in law, fully relevant to the wishfully imaginative and
arrogantly confident.
mw
Michael Weston
: >That's almost as good as what the Supreme Court heard today. The criteria
: >is the spending of money. The library owns the disc, you don't.
: And the FM station owns the disc, as does the TV network own rights to
: show the movie. So where's the distinction?
Well, firstly, the TV station does far more than just buy a retail copy of
the movie (like a library does when it buys a cd it will lend) and
broadcast it. It buys broadcast rights for that movie. It is also the
case that radio stations pay for broadcast rights of music they play.
The bottom line is that laws regarding broadcast transmissions are not
analogous to laws regarding lending of physical commodities, even if the
end result is the same (you get to hear music).
mw
Michael Weston
>I asked these in another folder. I thought that it was perfectly legal
>to make one copy of a CD for your personal use, as long as you didn't
>sell the copies and deny royalties to the origianl.
> Buying a version and making a copy for a friend still does the Artist
>more good than not buying any at all.
Many of us would appear to agree with you based by our own actions, mine
included, if not our words. Does it matter to you if the activity is
still illegal? Do you feel that the process of buy-one, burn-one is worth
advocating? In other words, even if it is illegal, would you suggest to
others in a public forum: "here is how I save money."
mw
TD
In the UK, some TV has advertising, some is paid for by the viewer who pays
an annual fee. Libraries also pay fees to authors, and presumably to
musicians or their companies. But how does your argument distinguish TV
broadcasts from library lending? Doesn't the library also offer the
material, which has been paid for by taxes? If a library had a commercial
sponsor, would that change things?
The only distinction I can see, though this is just a guess as I don't know
the details of Betamax, is that that case may have intended that people
should record broadcasts in order to listen to them at a more convenient
time, and then wipe the tape. However , this isn't clear from what we've
been told so far. I have cds on which I have paid full royalties, but which
I have never listened to...
TD
But where recording a broadcast of a cd substitutes for purchase and thereby
deprives the copyright holder, it is legal? And where a copier could not
afford to purchase and therefore is not depriving the copyright holder?
Michael Weston
: But where recording a broadcast of a cd substitutes for purchase and thereby
: deprives the copyright holder, it is legal? And where a copier could not
: afford to purchase and therefore is not depriving the copyright holder?
This is a wholly different discussion, and I can't say I know the bottom
line here. However, you cannot deny that there is a broadcast fee paid by
the radio station that places the nature of its distribution in a wholly
different realm from that of a library, where there is no special
licensing fee paid to the copyright holder for lending rights.
Your continued emphasis that the person who engages in this activity
cannot afford the item in question may give us greater personal sympathy
for your activities, but it doesn't change the question of legality. Do
you honestly imagine that your financial resources would have any bearing
on the rights of copyright holders? The "fact" that you are not depriving
the copyright holder is totally debatable. If I saved $5 a month, I could
afford a CSO box sooner or later (later, obviously). The first set has
been around for roughly 10 years- that gives me ample time. The fact of
the matter is that you have made a judgement call that the disks aren't
worth the expense, not that you would never be able to afford them. That
very fact means that your act of duplication does deny the copyright
holder of the admittedly slim possibility that you would have entered into
the necessary effort to purchase the set. You have no special right of
duplication for disks you feel are overpriced.
mw
Tripletz
If it's illegal, I wouldn't advocate it.
I have the quaint notion that since I do enough to keep the world of
recorded Classical Music solvent, I'm allowed to occassionally burn a CD and
listen to it for private use. I must buy at least 30 CDs for everyone that I
burn. I could only laugh
when the Editor of Gramophone urged the readership regularly to just buy 1 more
CD a year so that the major labels would be solvent.
Most of the time that I burn CDs it is for friends, to stimulate their
interest in a Composer or a given Artist. More often than not, the intent
meets with success, and then the recepient of the burned CD
then makes further purchases--which benefits everyone. Some might think of it
as Copyright infringement, but I prefer to think of it as a Promotional term.
TD
> TD (tj...@spam.ac.uk) wrote:
> : But where recording a broadcast of a cd substitutes for purchase and
thereby
> : deprives the copyright holder, it is legal? And where a copier could not
> : afford to purchase and therefore is not depriving the copyright holder?
>
> This is a wholly different discussion, and I can't say I know the bottom
> line here. However, you cannot deny that there is a broadcast fee paid by
> the radio station that places the nature of its distribution in a wholly
> different realm from that of a library, where there is no special
> licensing fee paid to the copyright holder for lending rights.
>
> Your continued emphasis that the person who engages in this activity
> cannot afford the item in question may give us greater personal sympathy
> for your activities
Third person, please! I did add a disclaimer to an earlier post.
, but it doesn't change the question of legality. Do
> you honestly imagine that your financial resources would have any bearing
> on the rights of copyright holders? The "fact" that you are not depriving
> the copyright holder is totally debatable. If I saved $5 a month, I could
> afford a CSO box sooner or later (later, obviously). The first set has
> been around for roughly 10 years- that gives me ample time. The fact of
> the matter is that you have made a judgement call that the disks aren't
> worth the expense, not that you would never be able to afford them. That
> very fact means that your act of duplication does deny the copyright
> holder of the admittedly slim possibility that you would have entered into
> the necessary effort to purchase the set. You have no special right of
> duplication for disks you feel are overpriced.
I think your originsl point to which I was replying makes clear why I put
that question:
John Grabowski
>
> My basic motivation here is to counter those who have come to honestly
> believe that "my duplication of this recording that I don't own is OK
> because of X." Is there any circumstance that would permit such a
> situation?
Yupper. If the label refuses to issue it, and I can get a copy of it
somehow, I do it. If the label wants my legitimate money they can
legitimately issue the CD.
Often we hear there isn't enough interest in classical music for it to
be profitable to issue X. But somehow there *is* a great financial loss
if we "steal" X. Make up your minds, labels. If you issue it, I will
buy it. Until then, to quote Malcolm X, "By any means necessary."
John
--
I remember when the president picked the Supreme Court justices, not the
other way around.
--Jay Leno
Spammers: I don't need a work-at-home business, a ground-floor
investment opportunity or Viagra, thank you.
Matthew B. Tepper
<3A461F8E...@earthlink.net>:
>Somebody wrote:
>>
>> My basic motivation here is to counter those who have come to honestly
>> believe that "my duplication of this recording that I don't own is OK
>> because of X." Is there any circumstance that would permit such a
>> situation?
>
>Yupper. If the label refuses to issue it, and I can get a copy of it
>somehow, I do it. If the label wants my legitimate money they can
>legitimately issue the CD.
>
>Often we hear there isn't enough interest in classical music for it to
>be profitable to issue X. But somehow there *is* a great financial loss
>if we "steal" X. Make up your minds, labels. If you issue it, I will
>buy it. Until then, to quote Malcolm X, "By any means necessary."
Time was, when love and I were well-acquainted -- whoops, don't want to
risk getting flamed again for partial Gilbert & Sullivan quotes, do I?
Start again:
Time was, when I had a choice between an "unofficial" transfer of an
historical performance on a private label, and the "legitimate" one from
the actual recording owners, I would unfailingly go for the legit one every
time, even to the point of replacing the private one with it.
This made a certain amount of sense; dumping the Turnabout Historical LPs
of, say, the Karajan 1955 Berlin _Lucia_ in favor of the EMI issue gave me
the better-sounding transfer, as well as a feeling that justice had been
served; a case of "Maria Rescued from the Pirates" as a long-ago headline
in _Fanfare_ once had it.
But times change. As I perceived the record companies becoming gradually
more and more careless with their transfers, my disappointment grew in
proportion. The bungled mess of the EMI "Beecham" _Tristan_ was, for me,
not just an artistic but also a tremendous personal disillusionment; by
chance, I had actually met Brown Meggs (the former head of Capitol), who
assured me that it would be first-rate. (Brief pause to put on the Naxos
release of the Reiner performance.)
That was the turning point. I no longer recommend "legit" over "pirates,"
and that _Tristan_ was the start of it. I have certainly harped over it
more than enough in this newsgroup (inasmuch as I really have no desire to
be a harper), and I have even buttonholed strangers browsing amongst the
_Tristan_ recordings at a record store to warn them away from it. (One
young Frenchwoman asked me what I *did* recommend, and I mentioned and
described a few, including the Melodram real-Beecham issue, which I called
the "most erotic." This turned out to be the one that she bought! Down,
Matthew!)
It's not a long step from that awakening to the realization that sometimes
the record companies are worth challenging on their own grounds, with their
own material. The Schnabel Beethoven Sonatas are an often-cited case in
point. I've heard some of the EMI CDs, which is why I bought the Pearl.
Beecham's _Zauberflöte_ I have in the splendid Dutton transfers, slipped
into the Nimbus box with that beautiful book. (The Nimbus CDs were then
casually discarded to Record Surplus.) No thought of even auditioning the
EMI transfers -- I have the Dutton, so what's the point?
Even when the record companies do their best, they still disappoint,
because they won't follow through. Sony had a hit, a palpable hit (I hope
I can at least quote *Shakespeare* without being called insane to my face)
with their Masterworks Heritage series -- and then the chiefs pulled the
plug on the whole shebang, in order to pursue their core goals of selling
movie music and leggy little girls.
So you know what? I started out, years ago, almost as much of a bluenose
as Peter T. Daniels. Right is right and you do what is right. But in the
real world, that means you keep getting stuck with crap.
So I'm with you, all the way. And I feel sure that there will follow more
collectors, equally disillusioned. There will come a day, probably less
than five years from now, when the majority classical collectors will just
say, "Screw it!" and we'll all be swapping Boston Symphony broadcasts,
Metropolitan Opera performances, Columbia "Tombstone"-era Szigeti records,
all via broadband, home-burned CDs, or who knows maybe something else that
I can't even conceive. My current cable carrier simply cannot even be
talked into offering the Ovation channel, so what hope can one possibly
have from the "music-on-demand" people, except for nothing but generic
"Scheherazade"s and Beethoven Fifths taken from prestigious Laserlight and
Pilz releases.
"By any means necessary" -- I have a feeling that it will come to that
(probably *without* any actual violence, unless of course I can train that
crack commando team to make raids on record company archives -- joke!), and
*if* the record industry is smart they'll find a way to facilitate *our*
wants and *earn* that cut of the action, instead of trying to shut down
anybody who doesn't just roll over, play by their rules, and give them that
action by simple conquest.
% % % % % % % % % %
Any journalists out there who have managed to read this far? Or do you
need a little help with the long words, archaic slang, and heavy sarcasm?
Do you want to bust open the music industry? Get in touch with me!
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
"Compassionate Conservatism?" * "Tight Slacks?" * "Jumbo Shrimp?"