Bach's Cantata #21 (Warning! Long and pretentious...)
Thomas J Wood
For lovers of Bach's cantatas, these are exciting times. Two complete
recorded cycles are underway (Koopman on Erato, Suzuki on BIS), a third is
in the works (Gardiner on DG/Archiv), and two older ones are available at
budget price (Harnoncourt/Leonhardt on Teldec, Rilling on Haenssler). And
other conductors, such as Herreweghe, while apparently not aiming for
completion, have given us an extensive series of cantata recordings.
You might think that such a variety of artists would produce a variety of
musical approaches to these elusive works. But a striking feature of the
Herreweghe, Koopman and Suzuki recordings is their stylistic similarity. All
three utilize period instruments; all three typically use mixed choirs of
about 18-20 singers; all three use a string section of about 10-12 players;
and all three use specialist singers with clear, bright voices.
These similarities shouldn't surprise us; Herreweghe and Koopman both work
in the Low Countries and share many of the same instrumentalists and
singers. And Suzuki was student of Koopman. All three have produced cantata
recordings of great distinction. But all three are so similar in their style
and sound that their efforts almost seem redundant. All three share a
certain sweet, smooth, bright manner that verges on self-parody at time. At
times they noticeably lack a certain energy and earthiness, making them seem
rather effete and bloodless. And yet, at their best, these are often
satisfying and successful recordings.
Recently, I purchased recordings of Cantata #21 (Ich hatte viel Bekummernis)
conducted by Koopman and Suzuki; I already had the recording of the piece by
Herreweghe. My first impression was -- uncertainty that, in a blind test, I
could tell the three recordings apart!
So I made a careful comparison of the three recordings…with my eyes wide
open, however.
As mentioned above, the forces used for the three recordings are
extraordinarily similar:
Herreweghe: Koopman:
Suzuki:
Chorus: 7/4/4/5 7/4/4/4
4/4/5/5
Strings: 4/3/2/2/1 4/4/2/2/1
3/3/2/2/1
Soloists: Barbara Schlick (s) Barbara Schlick
Monika Frimmer
Howard Crook (t) --
Gerd Turk*
Peter Harvey (b) Klaus Mertens
Peter Kooij
Version: Leipzig, 1723 Coethen, 1720
Coethen, 1720
(but without trombones) (trombones in appendix) (*tenor
arias in appendix)
Oboe: Marcel Ponseele Marcel Ponseele
Marcel Ponseele (!)
Timings:
1. Sinfonia: 2'54 3'00
3'04
2. Chorus 3'55 3'44
3'53
etc…..(get the picture?)
Nope, not a lot of difference here. Two share the same soprano soloist; all
three feature the same oboe soloist!
But on closer analysis, differences begin to appear:
One point of divergence is the version of the cantata chosen. Bach was proud
of this ambitious, lengthy, and lavishly varied work, and performed it at
every stage of his career. Herreweghe gives us the Leipzig version with
three soloists (despite what the notes say), but leaves out the three
trombones Bach added at Leipzig. Koopman gives us the Coethen version, sans
tenor, but gives us the movements with Leipzig trombones as an appendix.
Suzuki chooses the Coethen version, but gives us as an appendix the tenor
versions Bach prepared for the 1714 Weimar version. Taking into account the
pieces included in appendices, each of the three recordings is unique. To
obtain every variant movement, one would have to buy all three!
Barbara Schlick sings with her characteristically expressive, but rather
warbling voice. Frimmer is a rather more solid soprano, but also a bit
chillier. Frimmer excels at runs, but Schlick gives a more affecting account
of the aria "Seufzer, Tra:nen" both for Herreweghe and Koopman.
Howard Crook's tenor voice is dry and unattractive and a distinct negative
for Herreweghe. All three basses are fine, but have relatively little to do
in the piece.
All three choruses are excellent, and produce a clear, firm sound. Suzuki's
choir, the chorus of the Bach Collegium of Japan, is the most colorful of
the three, with superb diction (but somewhat odd vowel coloring for German,
it seems to my non-fluent ears).
Cantata 21 is one of the few for which Bach prepared ripieno parts in
Leipzig. Thus, some of the choruses have indications for solo/tutti
performance. Herreweghe and Koopman observe these instructions (although,
it's not clear why Koopman should, since he's giving us the Coethen version
otherwise). Suzuki ignores the solo/tutti contrasts, which makes sense as
he is performing the Weimar version (despite the fact the choruses were
almost surely performed by four solo voices there; here sits a can of worms
which I will leave unopened for the moment).
The decisive differences between the three recordings arrive in terms of the
quality of instrumental playing and recorded sound Herreweghe's recording,
made in 1990 by Harmonia Mundi, has a dry ambience; his strings are rather
scratchy, although the winds and brass sound quite good. Koopman's Amsterdam
group produces a richer sound, recorded very faithfully by Erato in late
1994.
And here Suzuki pulls out in front….
The strings of the Bach Collegium Japan, although smaller in number than
their rivals, produce a sensual, colorful sound; the trumpets in the final
chorus are round, nuanced, thrilling, and the recorded sound is sumptuous.
The chuckling bassoon part in the exciting final chorus is only really
audible in Suzuki's version. Overall, Suzuki's direction shows the most
attention to detail and effect. Note, in the final page of the first chorus,
how Suzuki makes the most of the sudden change of texture…Herreweghe and
Koopman just slide through this passage, easing heedlessly into the final
cadence.
So am I going to invest in the BIS/Suzuki series? Well…
Suzuki seems to be the most satisfying of the current "greater Lowlands
School" of Bach performance….but not by a wide margin. The style and
quality of their recordings are still quite similar. So…as long as the BMG
Classical Club offers the Koopman series at a bargain price, I'll be
investing in it….and supplementing it with Suzuki as need, if Koopman
disappoints on individual cantatas!
Hmmm…I wonder what the Gardiner cycle will be like….
Tom Wood
mt
see you back in full force.
Regards,
mt
Thomas J Wood
different format:
Chorus, Strings:
Herreweghe 7/4/4/5 4/3/2/2/1
Koopman 7/4/4/4 4/4/2/2/1
Suzuki: 4/4/5/5 3/3/2/2/1
Soloists:
Herreweghe: Barbara Schlick (s), Howard Crook (t), Peter Harvey (b)
Koopman: Barbara Schlick (s) , Klaus Mertens (t)
Suzuki: Monika Frimmer (s), Peter Kooij (b), Gerd Turk (t) (in appendix)
Version of BWV 21 recorded:
Herreweghe Leipzig, 1723 (but without trombones and cornetto)
Koopman Coethen, 1720 (chorus with trombones and cornetto in appendix)
Suzuki Coethen, 1720 (tenor arias from Weimar version in appendix)
Timings of movements:
Herreweghe: 2'54, 3'55, 4'16, 1'36, 6'25, 3'26 etc.
Koopman: 3'00, 3'44, 4'46, 1'34, 6'34, 3'35 etc.
Suzuki: 3'04, 3'53, 4'23, 1'26, 5'18, 3'27 etc.
As for Suzuki's BWV 31 being effete and bloodless: of course it's not! And
Koopman and Herreweghe let their players rip sometimes, too. (see the
opening movements of Koopman's BWV 190, or Herreweghe's BWV 11 or 66). But
there are also many weak, watery moments (Koopman's new Magnificat is quite
good...but it includes a really soggy "Deposuit"...)
Tom Wood
Matthew Westphal
Listen to the companion piece on the Suzuki disc: "Die Himmel lacht"
BWV 31. More particularly, listen to the boisterous opening Sinfonia
and the first chorus. Surely you can't say that's "effete and
bloodless" music-making!
[snip detailed, well-written, informative comparison]
>
> So am I going to invest in the BIS/Suzuki series? Well…
>
> Suzuki seems to be the most satisfying of the current "greater
Lowlands
> School" of Bach performance….but not by a wide margin. The style and
> quality of their recordings are still quite similar. So…as long as
the BMG
> Classical Club offers the Koopman series at a bargain price, I'll be
> investing in it….and supplementing it with Suzuki as need, if Koopman
> disappoints on individual cantatas!
>
> Hmmm…I wonder what the Gardiner cycle will be like….
So do I...
Think of the schedule Gardiner will have to keep up. Bear in mind that
said schedule includes a lot of travel and probably doesn't include a
lot of rehearsal time. Remember that London has the musical life it
does -- and its freelance musicians (especially choral singers) can
make a living -- because those musicians are probably the best sight-
readers in the world.
My hopes are not high...
Matthew Westphal
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Simon Roberts
: For lovers of Bach's cantatas, these are exciting times. Two complete
: recorded cycles are underway (Koopman on Erato, Suzuki on BIS), a third is
: in the works (Gardiner on DG/Archiv), and two older ones are available at
: budget price (Harnoncourt/Leonhardt on Teldec, Rilling on Haenssler). And
: other conductors, such as Herreweghe, while apparently not aiming for
: completion, have given us an extensive series of cantata recordings.
[snip]
Pretentious? Hardly. Your superb description seems dead on. I think
it's a great shame that three so similar series are underway, a depressing
waste of resources. I suppose Gardiner's somewhat extrovert efficiency
will prove attractive in some of the cantatas, but what I would really
like -- a set by a group of musicians who seem fully alert to the dramatic
content of this music (how on earth can Koopman make so little of the
start of canatata 54?; compared to him, Herreweghe (they share Scholl)
sounds like MAK) -- doesn't seem likely.
Simon
George Murnu
for the wonderful singing of Haefliger and the great trumpets in the
final choral. Of course I'm a non-HIP fan so...
Regards,
George
jvveen
Thomas J Wood wrote:
For lovers of Bach's cantatas, these are exciting times. Two complete
recorded cycles are underway (Koopman on Erato, Suzuki on BIS), a third is
in the works (Gardiner on DG/Archiv), and two older ones are available at
budget price (Harnoncourt/Leonhardt on Teldec, Rilling on Haenssler). And
other conductors, such as Herreweghe, while apparently not aiming for
completion, have given us an extensive series of cantata recordings.
Very good analysis, and I can agree with almost everything you said. It
is a shame that the recordings are so much alike. When HIP started it questioned
all performing principles of the traditional performance practice. Right
now a new standard has developed, and very few musicians dare or have the
imagination to question that. So in the end it depends on the qualities
of singers, players and conductors, which recording is the best. Last year
I purchased the Leonhardt/Harnoncourt sets and for me these are still the
most satisfying. First because of the use of boys in the choirs and as
solists, secondly because of the quality of singing and playing generally.
I haven't always admired Kurt Equiluz, but when you hear someone like Howard
Crook, you are just thankful for people like Equiluz, who knew how to sing
a recitative properly.
How useful it may be to compare one single cantata, we should realise
that during a series a certain development can take place. For example,
when the first recordings of Herreweghe were released, I liked them generally,
but during the years he has changed quite a bit. His newest recording of
the b-minor Mass is an indication: very beautiful sound, very smooth, but
also very boring. The sharp edges have gone, too much attention is payed
to a beautiful sound, which is the least important thing in baroque music.
He said in an interview that he had 'discovered' the legato... His recent
recordings prove that, unfortunately. Koopman has showed great skills in
choosing his soloists in many of his previous recordings, but in his Bach
project that skill seems to have gone. He didn't have a great start with
Barbara Schlick - although she did some good things - and now Lisa Larsson
is his favourite, which I am not unhappy with. But the alto... Why on earth
has he chosen Elisabeth von Magnus? I have never heard anything interesting
from her. Being the daughter of Harnoncourt doesn't make her an imaginative
musician - you can't inherit imagination. So far he hasn't been able to
find the proper tenor, apart from some appearances of Christoph Prégardien.
Only his bass Klaus Mertens is excellent.
Of the three recordings I definitely prefer the Japan Bach-Collegium.
There is more consistency within the performances, they are more real team-efforts
than Koopman's, and I think Suzuki has a better understanding of the religious
background of Bach's works than has Koopman.
As far as Gardiner is concerned: apart from the stupid plan to perform
and record all the cantatas in one year - will that be a new Olympic discipline?
- his previous recordings show he doesn't have a clue what Bach's music
is all about. And I'm sure that he will use the terrible Anthony Rolfe
Johnson again. Brrrrr..... And his choir: it is only good when it can sing
very loud, otherwise it is not of the standard of the choirs of Koopman,
Herreweghe and Suzuki.
There is definitely a place for an alternative recording, with an excellent
boys' choir. And there must be some good boys around who can sing Bach's
soloparts properly. I'm looking forward to a new recording, produced by
a Dutch drugstore (!!!), with the Holland Boys' Choir and the baroque orchestra
Florilegium Musicum, directed by Pieter Jan Leusink. The four soloists
will be Ruth Holton (not a boy, alas), Sytse Buwalda (male alto), Knut
Schoch (a very promising young German tenor) and Bas Ramselaar (a very
good Dutch bass). Those CDs will cost only about Hfl 3,50 (that's about
$1.75) each. (I don't think they will be available in outside the Netherlands.)
But I will always return to Leonhardt & Harnoncourt. Their recordings
will never stop to fascinate me.
Johan van Veen
Utrecht (Netherlands)
Simon Roberts
[excellent stuff snipped]
: There is definitely a place for an alternative recording, with an excellent
: boys' choir. And there must be some good boys around who can sing Bach's
: soloparts properly. I'm looking forward to a new recording, produced by a Dutch
: drugstore (!!!), with the Holland Boys' Choir and the baroque orchestra
: Florilegium Musicum, directed by Pieter Jan Leusink. The four soloists will be
: Ruth Holton (not a boy, alas), Sytse Buwalda (male alto), Knut Schoch (a very
: promising young German tenor) and Bas Ramselaar (a very good Dutch bass). Those
: CDs will cost only about Hfl 3,50 (that's about $1.75) each. (I don't think they
: will be available in outside the Netherlands.)
I wonder if Brilliant Classics will pick this up; I just bought a two disc
set of theirs via Berkshire for $3.98 which includes a superb Vivaldi
Gloria by those musicians (same except for the soprano, who's one Maja
Roodveldt); easily one of the two or three best I've heard. These
musicians should be better known.
Simon
Simon Crouch
> [snip...about all the cantata cycles]
> You might think that such a variety of artists would produce a variety of
> musical approaches to these elusive works. But a striking feature of the
> Herreweghe, Koopman and Suzuki recordings is their stylistic similarity. All
> three utilize period instruments; all three typically use mixed choirs of
> about 18-20 singers; all three use a string section of about 10-12 players;
> and all three use specialist singers with clear, bright voices.
Tom, you've made some very perceptive and interesting points in your post (and
certainly not pretentious ones!) and all I have to disagree with are points of
aesthetic appreciation. I do heartily agree with your point of lack of diversity
in these series, though. What I like about the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt, for
example, is the sheer raw gutsiness (bad pun, I know) of the performances.
Taruskin, of course, has made the point many times that these are not meant to
be "pretty" works. In another direction, I've just purchased Rifkin's
one-to-a-part b-minor mass (re-released on Erato Ultima). It really is a
revelation! (Some of the singing I don't like, but the overall effect is
wonderful). Why don't more conductors do this?
> All three share a certain sweet, smooth, bright manner that verges on
> self-parody at time.
With regard to Suzuki, I disagree here. One of the things that has struck me
about this series is the sheer amount of thought and consideration that's gone
into creating the performances. He's taken the same general structure and
aesthetic as the others, but I think his execution is, in general, far better
and I find that the spirituality of the works is better communicated. His St.
John Passion is another example - At first listening or two it sounds very
understated, but it really is a very well thought out spiritual performance. The
idea of self-parody just doesn't fit. Koopman and Herreweghe (the latter to a
much lesser extent), I do, to a certain extent, agree though.
> So…as long as the BMG
> Classical Club offers the Koopman series at a bargain price, I'll be
> investing in it….and supplementing it with Suzuki as need, if Koopman
> disappoints on individual cantatas!
Dear oh dear! In these wonderful works does it really come down to
bang-per-buck?! I'm disappointed! ;-)
all the best,
Simon Crouch.
Cantata Pages at
http://www.classical.net/~music/comp.lst/works/bachjs/cantatas.html
Massimo Campostrini
> There is definitely a place for an alternative recording, with an
> excellent boys' choir. And there must be some good boys around who
> can sing Bach's soloparts properly. I'm looking forward to a new
> recording, produced by a Dutch drugstore (!!!), with the Holland
> Boys' Choir and the baroque orchestra Florilegium Musicum, directed
> by Pieter Jan Leusink.
Now, this is nice news; a boys' choir buff like myself must hear these
(I care less for boys soloists). Be sure to post a notice when the
first issues appear. Do you know if the CDs will be distributed
through the regular channels? Or will the drugstore mail orders? ;-)
Regards,
Massimo Campostrini
jvveen
Massimo Campostrini wrote:
jvveen <jvv...@casema.net> writes:
> There is definitely a place for an alternative recording, with an
> excellent boys' choir. And there must be some good boys around who
> can sing Bach's soloparts properly. I'm looking forward to a new
> recording, produced by a Dutch drugstore (!!!), with the Holland
> Boys' Choir and the baroque orchestra Florilegium Musicum, directed
> by Pieter Jan Leusink.
Now, this is nice news; a boys' choir buff like myself must hear these
(I care less for boys soloists). Be sure to post a notice when the
first issues appear. Do you know if the CDs will be distributed
through the regular channels? Or will the drugstore mail orders? ;-)Regards,
Massimo Campostrini
I don't know yet; it is part of a series of recordings (some of them reissues, which they have bought from recordings companies) with a large part of Bach's works: all the organ and harpsichord pieces, the cantatas & oratorios, the orchestral works and the chamber music. This drugstore regularly produces CDs at a very cheap price. I doubt whether they are allowed to sell them abroad. I am going to do some research, and I keep you posted. When there is a possibility to order it by mail, I let you know.
Regards,
Massimo Campostrini
> This drugstore regularly produces CDs at a very cheap price. I doubt
> whether they are allowed to sell them abroad.
Maybe they can sell within the EU? We are supposed to have no trade
barriers whatsoever (hope hope).
> I am going to do some research, and I keep you posted. When there is
> a possibility to order it by mail, I let you know.
Thanks a lot.
Regards,
Massimo Campostrini
Michael Subotin
> I wonder if Brilliant Classics will pick this up; I just bought a two disc
> set of theirs via Berkshire for $3.98 which includes a superb Vivaldi
> Gloria by those musicians (same except for the soprano, who's one Maja
> Roodveldt); easily one of the two or three best I've heard. These
> musicians should be better known.
Is the rest of the set better than wretched?
Michael
--
E-mail: mvsst3+@pitt{DOT}edu Replace {DOT} with a dot
Simon Roberts
: Simon Roberts wrote:
: > I wonder if Brilliant Classics will pick this up; I just bought a two disc
: > set of theirs via Berkshire for $3.98 which includes a superb Vivaldi
: > Gloria by those musicians (same except for the soprano, who's one Maja
: > Roodveldt); easily one of the two or three best I've heard. These
: > musicians should be better known.
: Is the rest of the set better than wretched?
The Pergolesi Stabat Mater is tolerable but not really better than that,
and certainly not competitive with the best performances, HIP or otherwise
(this is a small scale, British HIP performance). The other work is
Alessandro Scarlatti's St. Celilia Mass performed by Abravanel, a big,
old-fashioned performance that is entirely out of place stylistically
amongst the other two and which sounds pretty ludicrous to my ears. So,
the question is whether a superb Vivaldi Gloria is worth $4. I think so.
Simon
jvveen
>
> Simon Roberts wrote:
>
> > I wonder if Brilliant Classics will pick this up; I just bought a two disc
> > set of theirs via Berkshire for $3.98 which includes a superb Vivaldi
> > Gloria by those musicians (same except for the soprano, who's one Maja
> > Roodveldt); easily one of the two or three best I've heard. These
> > musicians should be better known.
>
Since my provider seems to have continuous problems with the newsserver, I missed
Simons first message concerning the Holland Boys' Choir etc. For those who are
interested, some more recordings (originally released by STH Records):
Bach, St Matthew Passion (Ruud Gremmer, Martinus Leusink, treble; Sytse Buwalda,
Martin van der Zeijst, alto; Paul van den Bemt, Frank Fritschy, tenor; Peter Jonk,
Kees-Jan de Koning, bariton; Julian Hartman, bas; with Florilegium Musicum,
directed by Pieter Jan Leusink)
Handel: Messiah (with Maja Roodveldt, soprano; Sytse Buwalda, alto; Paul van den
Bemt, tenor; Julian Hartman, bas; same orchestra & director)
Handel: 4 Coronation Anthems (same choir & orchestra, directed by David
Willcocks).
Unfortunately, as far as I know the choir doesn't have a website or e-mailadress,
but for those who are interested, here is the postal adress: Zuiderzeestraatweg
Oost 40, 8081 LD Elburg, tel. (+31) 0525684819.
Simon Roberts
: Since my provider seems to have continuous problems with the newsserver, I missed
: Simons first message concerning the Holland Boys' Choir etc. For those who are
: interested, some more recordings (originally released by STH Records):
: Bach, St Matthew Passion (Ruud Gremmer, Martinus Leusink, treble; Sytse Buwalda,
: Martin van der Zeijst, alto; Paul van den Bemt, Frank Fritschy, tenor; Peter Jonk,
: Kees-Jan de Koning, bariton; Julian Hartman, bas; with Florilegium Musicum,
: directed by Pieter Jan Leusink)
: Handel: Messiah (with Maja Roodveldt, soprano; Sytse Buwalda, alto; Paul van den
: Bemt, tenor; Julian Hartman, bas; same orchestra & director)
: Handel: 4 Coronation Anthems (same choir & orchestra, directed by David
: Willcocks).
: Unfortunately, as far as I know the choir doesn't have a website or e-mailadress,
: but for those who are interested, here is the postal adress: Zuiderzeestraatweg
: Oost 40, 8081 LD Elburg, tel. (+31) 0525684819.
Thanks for the information. I've found the Handel on a disc released by
Columns, but never seen the others. I must try to track these down,
especially the St Matthew....
Simon
Florian Eichhorn
Thomas J Wood wrote:
>
> For lovers of Bach's cantatas, these are exciting times. Two complete
> recorded cycles are underway (Koopman on Erato, Suzuki on BIS), a third is
> in the works (Gardiner on DG/Archiv), and two older ones are available at
> budget price (Harnoncourt/Leonhardt on Teldec, Rilling on Haenssler).
The bad grouche voice from Germany - forget Rilling...
> And
> other conductors, such as Herreweghe, while apparently not aiming for
> completion, have given us an extensive series of cantata recordings.
>
(snii-p)
>
> And here Suzuki pulls out in front….
>
> The strings of the Bach Collegium Japan, although smaller in number than
> their rivals, produce a sensual, colorful sound; the trumpets in the final
> chorus are round, nuanced, thrilling, and the recorded sound is sumptuous.
> The chuckling bassoon part in the exciting final chorus is only really
> audible in Suzuki's version. Overall, Suzuki's direction shows the most
> attention to detail and effect. Note, in the final page of the first chorus,
> how Suzuki makes the most of the sudden change of texture…Herreweghe and
> Koopman just slide through this passage, easing heedlessly into the final
> cadence.
>
> So am I going to invest in the BIS/Suzuki series? Well…
>
> Suzuki seems to be the most satisfying of the current "greater Lowlands
> School" of Bach performance….but not by a wide margin. The style and
> quality of their recordings are still quite similar.
No , I do not think so, The problem are the liberties Koopman shows in
the problems of tempo.
and with the b.c., usage of the small chamber organs (an invention of
HIP movement).
Rifkin did some of doubtable things with bachs cantatas, but as of
the b.c. he is right, right, right.
So…as long as the BMG
> Classical Club offers the Koopman series at a bargain price, I'll be
> investing in it….and supplementing it with Suzuki as need, if Koopman
> disappoints on individual cantatas!
Tom, support Your opinion. And stick to the Japanese, forget about "bargains".
Koopman is to liberal :-( in tempo,ec. He is one of the HIP people
which need caution.
I was really angry at his Bach organo stuff - its more his ones, than
the one of JSB. His technically superb playing only increased my anger.
Well :-)
Florian Eichhorn
--
Daily net fun at
http://www.userfriendly.org/static/
:-D This is a 100% Apple Macintosh™ processed message.
Thomas J Wood
Florian Eichhorn <florian....@main-rheiner.de> wrote in message
news:379673E0...@main-rheiner.de...
>No , I do not think so, The problem are the liberties Koopman shows in
>the problems of tempo.
>and with the b.c., usage of the small chamber organs (an invention of
>HIP movement).
>Rifkin did some of doubtable things with bachs cantatas, but as of
>the b.c. he is right, right, right.
Koopman's tempi are almost exactly the same as Herreweghe's and Suzuki's.
What do you mean? What does Rifkin do with continuo that is "right"? Right
for when, where? Weimar? Coethen? The Thomaskirche in 1724? the Nicolaikiche
in 1732? Please explain.
Chamber organs were NOT invented by the recent HIP movement. The question of
proper continuo instruments for Bach cantatas is complex (there were
different instruments available in different churches, and at different
times).
So.as long as the BMG
> Classical Club offers the Koopman series at a bargain price, I'll be
> investing in it..and supplementing it with Suzuki as need, if Koopman
> disappoints on individual cantatas!
>Tom, support Your opinion. And stick to the Japanese, forget about
"bargains".
I think my opinions are supported. Which opinions do you mean? And I'm not
made of money...
>Koopman is to liberal :-( in tempo,ec. He is one of the HIP people
>which need caution.
NO!! Koopman is TOO CAUTIOUS. He needs to take some risks, at least when it
comes to his cantata series.
>I was really angry at his Bach organo stuff - its more his ones, than
>the one of JSB. His technically superb playing only increased my anger.
>Well :-)
Yes, Koopman embellishes and ornaments quite a bit...as did most players in
Bach's time. What's your point?
Tom Wood
Florian Eichhorn
Thomas J Wood wrote:
>
> Florian Eichhorn <florian....@main-rheiner.de> wrote in message
> news:379673E0...@main-rheiner.de...
>
> >No , I do not think so, The problem are the liberties Koopman shows in
> >the problems of tempo.
> >and with the b.c., usage of the small chamber organs (an invention of
> >HIP movement).
> >Rifkin did some of doubtable things with bachs cantatas, but as of
> >the b.c. he is right, right, right.
>
> Koopman's tempi are almost exactly the same as Herreweghe's and Suzuki's.
> What do you mean? What does Rifkin do with continuo that is "right"? Right
> for when, where? Weimar? Coethen? The Thomaskirche in 1724? the Nicolaikiche
> in 1732? Please explain.
>
> Chamber organs were NOT invented by the recent HIP movement. The question of
> proper continuo instruments for Bach cantatas is complex (there were
> different instruments available in different churches, and at different
> times).
Of course chamber organs and organ positives existed. What I meant
was, that a certain invented HIP tradition claims, that the chamber
organ (Truhenorgel) has to be used in nearly any of Bachs church
cantata (see Harnoncourt series).
Rifkins arguments for cembalo (sometimes two of them) and continuo
strings usage (plus lute/bassoon were appropriate)in this case
is much more convincing in my eyes.
Rifkins series was discontinued, but he has his successors. E.g. the
Jeffrey Thomas Bach Cantata series (Koch records). Lets take an
example of it, Vol.
VI, BWV 78-80-140 (quite a good one, only Bott was not in full form)
with a scoring of the b.c. in Rifkins way (Thomas worked with Rifkin):
a Violone playing colla
parte with Vcl, Cembalo, Organ, partly also w. bassoon and lute.
Reduced, when suggested by the musical material (e.g., lute and cello
only in the soprano aria of BWV 80).
I know that this has been and is, a real battlefield among Bach enthusiasts.
So I do not want to quote/requote these positions, please understand.
In a way it is similiar with an another HIP tradition which likes to
add a
bassoon within the b.c. to virtual any kind of baroque music w. reeds.
But that was predominantly french practice (bande des obois), other
regions handled the b.c. different, e.g. in Italy that was rather uncommon.
> So.as long as the BMG
> > Classical Club offers the Koopman series at a bargain price, I'll be
> > investing in it..and supplementing it with Suzuki as need, if Koopman
> > disappoints on individual cantatas!
>
> >Tom, support Your opinion. And stick to the Japanese, forget about
> "bargains".
>
> I think my opinions are supported. Which opinions do you mean? And I'm not
> made of money...
Mistyping. One letter is missing: please read "Tom, --> I <-- support
Your opinion".
Well, just what You said with BMGs bargain offer making. My
recommendation was: no, get the Suzuki, omit Koopman (well mostly, his
section with the secular cantatas was quite OK, his BWV 198 is
magnificent in every respect).
>
> >Koopman is to liberal :-( in tempo,ec. He is one of the HIP people
> >which need caution.
>
> NO!! Koopman is TOO CAUTIOUS. He needs to take some risks, at least when it
> comes to his cantata series.
Regrets, not Koopmans caution, but "caution is advised to the
prospectous buyer of his recordings"
So You mean: he sticks seriously to the text, but does not enough
ornament or dramatics, needs encouraging. OK?
My impression is: yes, often to slow and dull, but combined with
unpreciseness towards the text, to put it mildly.
Example from Koopmans series Vol. III (22,
23,54,63,155,161,162,163,165,208): these are rather intimately scored
cantatas, so one can here quite prominently what Koopman does with the
material, and what not. The baroque string quartet :-) plays clean and
orderly, but dull. He does not vary his tempo ordinario, and in
particular his choose of tempo is arbitrary. The introductory set of
"O heilges Geis- und Wasserbad" is played faster than the tenor aria
"Jesu, meines Todes Tod", but both of them are written in
C-Tempo-ordinaro with 1/16 as smallest value. Why the 12/8 tact in the
alto aria of the same cantata is so slow? What is his reason to play
the opening recitativo in BWV 155 as adagio, when we take into
account, that Bach in all of his other cantatas expressively noted
"Adagio" - when he wanted to have it ? And for that recitativo, JSB
did not. Also, the 1/8 in the bass of the said recitativo sound quite
clumsy played like this.
>
> >I was really angry at his Bach organo stuff - its more his ones, than
> >the one of JSB. His technically superb playing only increased my anger.
> >Well :-)
>
> Yes, Koopman embellishes and ornaments quite a bit...as did most players in
> Bach's time. What's your point?
> Tom Wood
Well, its not the general practice of ornamenting, as supported by
examples of the
time, I object (in fact, I like it very much), not the way of tasty
ornamenting or rubato e.g. Leonhardt or Harald
Vogel did. What I dislike, is Koopmans exaggerated way in combination
with unpreciseness, but also sometimes playing cowardly, undramatic
and slow.
It is granted, that Koopmans playing Bach on the organ is always
interesting.
But lets take an example to illustrate my grrim words: organ
works Vol. 9, partite BWV 766,767,768,770 and other chorals, played at
Ottobeuren, Teldec 1999. In the partite, I do not like his fast tempi.
What is convincing in the 12/8 dance like pieces, is not in BWV770:
Koopman puts that Choral "Ach, was soll ich Suender machen" as smashing
as a military march. Same with the following partite, and even the
adagio in partita IX can stop him only a bit. So this partita sounds
really hunted. In taking such a speedy tempo, single notes get lost,
e.g. in variation V of BWV 768. The prominent deep notes at the
beginning of each 1/8 in the bass not always have enough air to really
sound. Similiar the 1/16 (t. 47) in BWV 729: one can not hear much of
these 12 notes.
But what is much more disgusting than his excentric tempi and their
consequences, are his unbalanced organ stops (Registrierungen): some
voices are much to prominent, and put other ones in the off, in a not
acceptable way.These difficulties in balance are especially
prominent in the variations of BWV 768, or in partita II of BWV 766:
this largo, with Koopmans stops, his fast tempo and the excentric
ornaments sounds extremely experimental.
So while this can be quite enriching for the landscape of Bach
interpretations (his phantasy, his ability and his courage), it is
more like a playing meadow of Koopmans artistry, and not so much a
reasonable Bach. That does not mean, that all pieces are taken
experimental,a lot are acceptable, but others are what You minded: to
timid. E. g. in the chorlas of partite 766/767. The opening tact of
the chorals need a more markant stressing; here, K treated the
metric-rhythmic aspect much to indifferent. Astonishing for a Bach
player of his experience.
In all it is a colourfull mixture, but for me it leaves to much open
in question of precsion.
If You like it, well, its a matter of personal taste.
We have other examples of tasty embellishing, dramatic accents and
still doing justice to the notes of Bachs organ music.
Florian.
jvveen
Florian Eichhorn wrote:
> Of course chamber organs and organ positives existed. What I meant
> was, that a certain invented HIP tradition claims, that the chamber
> organ (Truhenorgel) has to be used in nearly any of Bachs church
> cantata (see Harnoncourt series).
> Rifkins arguments for cembalo (sometimes two of them) and continuo
> strings usage (plus lute/bassoon were appropriate)in this case
> is much more convincing in my eyes.
The use of the harpsichord in Bach's cantatas is controversial indeed. But there
is another point here: when you use the organ, what sort of organ do you use? The
cantatas were usually performed on the organ gallery, where the singers and
instrumentalists were standing and sitting around the large organ, the same organ
which also accompanied the community singing. A large organ gives more
possibilities as far as registration is concerned, and of course the continuo will
be much stronger than with a chamber organ. Last year I heard a concert where a
number of sinfonia's from cantatas with organ solo were performed on a real church
organ, with a small ensemble. It worked very well. There are of course many
practical problems. It will, for instance, not be easy to find a historical organ
with the right pitch and temperature.
>
> Well, its not the general practice of ornamenting, as supported by
> examples of the
> time, I object (in fact, I like it very much), not the way of tasty
> ornamenting or rubato e.g. Leonhardt or Harald
> Vogel did. What I dislike, is Koopmans exaggerated way in combination
> with unpreciseness, but also sometimes playing cowardly, undramatic
> and slow.
> It is granted, that Koopmans playing Bach on the organ is always
> interesting.
>
You are right in criticising Koopman's interpretation of Bach's organ works. He is
always interesting, that's for sure, but sometimes outright irritating as well.
His ornamentation works well in some pieces, e.g. some toccatas and preludes, but
often destroy the music. The works based on chorales are often totally wrong in
tempo, registration, articulation and so on. I wonder whether he reads the texts
of the chorales carefully, and if so, whether he does understand them. But that is
the problem with Koopman (also in the cantatas): he doesn't seem to have feeling
for the religious substance of Bach's music. There Suzuki is ahead of him, as well
as Leonhardt.
Leonhardts organ recordings are all wonderful and full of insight. Good complete
recordings: Fagius, Kooiman.
Harry Collier
BWV 21 (Harnoncourt, Suzuki, Herreweghe and Kuijken). In particular, it made
me re-listen to the Suzuki that I had forgotten about. Yes, the Suzuki is
clean, well-played and well sung. I do, however, miss a lot of the
interesting orchestral line; Suzuki's orchestra appears to sink back into
accompanying when a singer is singing, rather than actively duetting. The
older recording conducted by Sigiswald Kuijken that I have really points up
some of the incredible orchestral harmonies on which Bach lavished a lot of
attention.
Harry Collier
--
**********************************
* Harry Collier
* Infonortics Ltd
* 15 Market Place
* Tetbury, Glos. GL8 8DD
* England
*
* Tel: +44 1666 505 772
* Fax: +44 1666 505 774
* E-mail: hcol...@infonortics.com
* Website: www.infonortics.com
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Thomas J Wood <WOO...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:7n3b7d$34ha$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com...
> So I made a careful comparison of the three recordings.with my eyes wide
> etc...(get the picture?)
> And here Suzuki pulls out in front..
>
> The strings of the Bach Collegium Japan, although smaller in number than
> their rivals, produce a sensual, colorful sound; the trumpets in the final
> chorus are round, nuanced, thrilling, and the recorded sound is sumptuous.
> The chuckling bassoon part in the exciting final chorus is only really
> audible in Suzuki's version. Overall, Suzuki's direction shows the most
> attention to detail and effect. Note, in the final page of the first
chorus,
> how Suzuki makes the most of the sudden change of texture.Herreweghe and
> Koopman just slide through this passage, easing heedlessly into the final
> cadence.
>
> So am I going to invest in the BIS/Suzuki series? Well.
>
> Suzuki seems to be the most satisfying of the current "greater Lowlands
> School" of Bach performance..but not by a wide margin. The style and
> quality of their recordings are still quite similar. So.as long as the
BMG
> Classical Club offers the Koopman series at a bargain price, I'll be
> investing in it..and supplementing it with Suzuki as need, if Koopman
> disappoints on individual cantatas!
>
> Hmmm.I wonder what the Gardiner cycle will be like..
>
> Tom Wood
>
>
>
>
>
krazy kat
> Massimo Campostrini wrote:
>
> > Now, this is nice news; a boys' choir buff like myself must hear these
> > (I care less for boys soloists). Be sure to post a notice when the
> > first issues appear. Do you know if the CDs will be distributed
> > through the regular channels? Or will the drugstore mail orders? ;-)
> >
> > Regards,
> > Massimo Campostrini
>
> I don't know yet; it is part of a series of recordings (some of them
> reissues, which they have bought from recordings companies) with a large
> part of Bach's works: all the organ and harpsichord pieces, the cantatas &
> regularly produces CDs at a very cheap price. I doubt whether they are
> you posted. When there is a possibility to order it by mail, I let you
> know.
>
>
> Johan van Veen
> Utrecht (Netherlands)
>
>
sonatas were sold abroad, so I suspect their Bach will be too. Note that
Simon knows the Brilliant Classics label, and that is in fact the label
they'll be issued under. Although Kruidvat (the drugstore) is the main
distributor, Brilliant Classics seems to function as a "normal" record
label in all other respects. Thus their cd's eventually turn up in
regular record stores too, and they do seem to be exported as well.
The only exception I can think of is that for the recordings they license
from other labels, they get a license only for distribution in the
Netherlands. But as the recordings you refer to are new, that wouldn't
apply to those.
One piece of totally irrelevant extra information about Brilliant
Classics: in the Chopin box they issued, the performances of the ballades
are by the president of the label himself (Pieter van Winkel).
--
Frank
dds.nl is where it's really @
krazy kat
says...> : There is definitely a place for an alternative recording, with an excellent
> : boys' choir. And there must be some good boys around who can sing Bach's
> : soloparts properly. I'm looking forward to a new recording, produced by a Dutch
> : drugstore (!!!), with the Holland Boys' Choir and the baroque orchestra
> : Florilegium Musicum, directed by Pieter Jan Leusink. The four soloists will be
> : Ruth Holton (not a boy, alas), Sytse Buwalda (male alto), Knut Schoch (a very
> : promising young German tenor) and Bas Ramselaar (a very good Dutch bass). Those
> : CDs will cost only about Hfl 3,50 (that's about $1.75) each. (I don't think they
> : will be available in outside the Netherlands.)
>
> set of theirs via Berkshire for $3.98 which includes a superb Vivaldi
> Gloria by those musicians (same except for the soprano, who's one Maja
> Roodveldt); easily one of the two or three best I've heard. These
> musicians should be better known.
>
>
Johan was *probably* wrong in assuming they wouldn't be available outside
the Netherlands. The label *is* Brilliant Classics -- only in Holland
their main distributor happen to be a drugstore rather than the ordinary
record shops (which also start selling them after they've come out, not
to lag behind).
And as posts in this ng suggested that Brilliant Classic's Mozart piano
sonatas were sold abroad, I suspect their Bach will be too.