Pianists only: Bozhanov's LOW bench

[gereco]

Some time back, I remember discussing herethe pianist Evgeny
Bozhanov's preference for a very low seated position at the piano. In
fact, he carries his own personally-made bench to all of his concerts.
[Revealed at his VCC appearance in 2009]

Some here found this an "inappropriate" (secondary) topic, others
ventured a 'who cares' attitude. I presume that those who made these
comments were not pianists.

Just for the record, I today discovered among my holdings a brief
interview with Bozhanov in which he explains why he sits as low as he
does, and why he cannot play WITHOUT this bench. IIRC, most of what
he says I tried to convey in my post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKQoHBLezgU&feature=related

gc

[Dufus]

On Oct 1, 6:02 pm, gereco <g...@gerriecollins.com> wrote:
> most of what
> he says I tried to convey in my post.
>

What youngster today ? Hats off, Gentlemen. And Thanks, Gerrie.

Dufus

[pianomaven]

I don't care if he plays upside down and backwards, as long as he has
something interesting to say.

TD

[M forever]

...or rather, as long as you know who he/she is, so you can form your
"opinions" based on whatever clichés and biases you have for that
particular interpreter. We all know what happens when you don't know
who you are "listening" to, or if you think you are "listening" to
someone else...

[gereco]

If you haven’t yet heard that he has more to say than ANY of his
contemporaries in the piano area, it would look better if you just
laid off the bench comments. Obviously this particular bench, and
sitting VERY low, has a great deal to do with his particular sonic and
interpretive genius. Which was obviously taught or inspired by his
terrific pianist-teacher, Georg. Schenck.

Read and hear for yourself:


http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Schenck-Georg-Friedrich.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3DgJcXAe2A


gc

[herman]

Oh, dear. I see this topic is for 'pianists only'. Should we take this
as a hint you're unaware what kind of ng this is?

RMCR is for nutcases mostly.

[M forever]

I wonder what Schenck would say about you calling all Germans
indiscriminately "Nazis" or saying that "dogmata" is "Nazi-speak for
dogmas".

[herman]

On 2 oct, 01:02, gereco <g...@gerriecollins.com> wrote:

>
> Some here found this an "inappropriate" (secondary) topic, others
> ventured a 'who cares' attitude.  I presume that those who made these
> comments were not pianists.
>

I do recall your saying that most good pianists (you were aware of)
shared this preference for unusually low seating. This didn't help
taking you seriously. I believe there was a brief discussion of Gould
and the kind of music he typically played, but this seemed to be over
your head.

I have no doubt that young Bozhanov finds his bench of the highest
importance; a lot of artists have some kind of fetish. That doesn't
mean his listeners should be similarly invested in these matters.

Fact of the matter is the vast majority of first rate pianists seem to
cope very well on a regular bench.

[pianomaven]

But of course.

TD

[gereco]

It is so terribly amusing to me to note that you and your friend-
forever cannot let ONE post by me escape your attention. If I found
someone on any forum that was as highly distasteful (hateful?) as you
find me, I would avoid like the plague giving that person any
encouragement.

Btw, when's the last time you made an interesting comment about any
recording; orchestral, choral, piano, strings, harmonicas, or
washtubs?


gc

[O]

In article
<59a633b6-d578-45e1...@c1g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,

Nutcases medicated with Bruckner, perhaps?

-Owen

[gereco]

On Oct 1, 8:24 pm, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 2 oct, 01:02, gereco <g...@gerriecollins.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Some here found this an "inappropriate" (secondary) topic, others
> > ventured a 'who cares' attitude.  I presume that those who made these
> > comments were not pianists.
>
> I do recall your saying that most good pianists (you were aware of)
> shared this preference for unusually low seating. This didn't help
> taking you seriously.

Not my fault!

I believe there was a brief discussion of Gould
> and the kind of music he typically played, but this seemed to be over
> your head.

Cheap shot. If you don't understand or agree, just say so. And what
does the 'type of music that Gould played" have to do, if anything,
with his preference to sit low??

It's a personal preference having a great deal to do with the tonal
faithfullness of what the pianist thinks he is producing, which these
low-seat pianists think is more acute at their lower seating.

> I have no doubt that young Bozhanov finds his bench of the highest
> importance; a lot of artists have some kind of fetish. That doesn't
> mean his listeners should be similarly invested in these matters.

Fortunately, his listeners are more interested in such things than
you, since the majority I would venture ARE pianists - of varying
capabilities. And if you've tried to play something other than the
Bach Little Preludes & Fugues (if that), you would see how foolish
your comments on this subject
are.

> Fact of the matter is the vast majority of first rate pianists seem to
> cope very well on a regular bench.

As they should. WHO was questioning that? But are you aware that
these 'regular' benches can be adjusted to quite HIGH and LOW
positions? There's more to it than this, but why waste my time.

gc

[M forever]

On Oct 1, 10:22 pm, gereco <g...@gerriecollins.com> wrote:
> On Oct 1, 8:26 pm, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Oh, dear. I see this topic is for 'pianists only'. Should we take this
> > as a hint you're unaware what kind of ng this is?
>
> > RMCR is for nutcases mostly.
>
> It is so terribly amusing to me to note that you and your friend-
> forever cannot let ONE post by me escape your attention.   If I found
> someone on any forum that was as highly distasteful (hateful?) as you
> find me, I would avoid like the plague giving that person any
> encouragement.

Giving you encouragement yields great returns though. You are so
incredibly stupid and so easily derailed, just a little push, and you
go downhill at full speed and crash spectacularly. It really is fun to
watch you make a complete fool out of yourself again and again and
again.

BTW, do you also think that Bozhanov has to be grateful to the US
because it "liberated his country in WWII"?*

> Btw, when's the last time you made an interesting comment about any
> recording; orchestral, choral, piano, strings, harmonicas, or
> washtubs?
>
> gc

* Of course, that's not the case, but "Gereco" obviously wouldn't know
that.

[Gerard]

Now THIS is really a recording that should be liberated from the music.

[pianomaven]

Or ours?

TD

[laraine]

Bozhanov is often asked about this bench
in interviews. In one interview, he said
that Schenck, who is interested in adjustable
benches and has a whole bunch of them, is
the one who gave him the idea.

I suppose that the standard benches just
aren't flexible for some people, and who
knows, maybe a low bench is something
we all should try.

My piano bench doesn't adjust at all, but
I tried to simulate it by scrunching a bit,
and leaning back. It does gives a softer
tone. I see Bozhanov leaning back sometimes
like that, which maybe makes him seem a
bit kingly, but I think he is just
adjusting the sound.

C.

[herman]

On 2 oct, 18:11, laraine <larai...@gmail.com> wrote:


>
> My piano bench doesn't adjust at all, but
> I tried to simulate it by scrunching a bit,
> and leaning back. It does gives a softer
> tone. I see Bozhanov leaning back sometimes
> like that, which maybe makes him seem a
> bit kingly, but I think he is just
> adjusting the sound.
>
> C.

It doesn't take a lot of effort to imagine how Charles Rosen would
tear down this notion of sitting low and leaning back to get a softer
tone.

However, it's just not woth the effort. Lots of pianists are capable
of getting every kind of sonority shade without sitting on a baby
chair.

It's all a gimmick.

[pianomaven]

Horowitz once demonstrated that he could produce a beautiful tone with
his elbow!!!

The notion that a lower bench produces a more beautiful tone is a load
of rubbish. Tone is first heard in the ear and then duplicated by the
pianist at the keyboard. A wide variety of positions are available to
each pianist to produce such "tone", but first he has to have an aural
image of what he wants to produce, then a piano capable of realizing
what his inner ear dictates, and then go through whatever gyrations
suit him best in order to produce that sound. Some pianists have this
magic (Cherkassky, for example), others don't (Rudolf Serkin).
Beautiful tone does not make a good musician, as Serkin and Josef
Hoffman demonstrated in differing ways during their careers and
Volodos and Mustonen continue to demonstrate today.

TD



TD

[Ward Hardman]

On Oct 2, 9:11 am, laraine <larai...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]

> I suppose that the standard benches just
> aren't flexible for some people, and who
> knows, maybe a low bench is something
> we all should try.
>
> My piano bench doesn't adjust at all, but
> I tried to simulate it by scrunching a bit,
> and leaning back. It does gives a softer
> tone. I see Bozhanov leaning back sometimes
> like that, which maybe makes him seem a
> bit kingly, but I think he is just
> adjusting the sound.

"Perhaps, Mr. Gould, if I were to slice one millimeter
off your derriere ... ."
- George Szell

(Szell to Glenn Gould at a rehearsal, in which the pianist kept
adjusting the piano bench, up a turn, down a smidge, up a hair, etc.
This was rumored to have precipitated a feud between the two. ;-)

--Ward Hardman

"The older I get, the more I admire and crave competence,
just simple competence, in any field from adultery to zoology."
- H.L. Mencken

[M forever]

That sounds pretty good but considering that you have demonstrated
that you can't keep individual pianists apart who have very different
styles, all this waffling about who has a beautiful "tone" and who
doesn't is - obviously - completely holllow.

[Dufus]

On Oct 2, 1:44 pm, pianomaven <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 2, 2:07 pm, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > It's all a gimmick.

> > The notion that a lower bench produces a more beautiful tone is a load
> of rubbish.

I'm sure Bozhanov will be relieved to know he can now start using any
old bench, and can quit carrying his about. Gerrie can post the word
to his website.

Dufus

[pianomaven]

Linus had his blanket. Bozhanov has his stool.

TD

[bassppn]

speak for you self.......AB

[gereco]

On Oct 2, 1:44 pm, pianomaven <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Oct 2, 2:07 pm, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 2 oct, 18:11, laraine <larai...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > My piano bench doesn't adjust at all, but
> > > I tried to simulate it by scrunching a bit,
> > > and leaning back. It does gives a softer
> > > tone. I see Bozhanov leaning back sometimes
> > > like that, which maybe makes him seem a
> > > bit kingly, but I think he is just
> > > adjusting the sound.
>
> > > C.
>
> > It doesn't take a lot of effort to imagine how Charles Rosen would
> > tear down this notion of sitting low and leaning back to get a softer
> > tone.
>
> > However, it's just not woth the effort. Lots of pianists are capable
> > of getting every kind of sonority shade without sitting on a baby
> > chair.
>
> > It's all a gimmick.
>
> Horowitz once demonstrated that he could produce a beautiful tone with
> his elbow!!!

Now that WOULD be a gimmick. It's all according to whose ears are
doing the judging.
And he probably didn't have the 'sense' at the time to know that the
properties/evaluation of a tone can only strictly be judged in
relation to another.

> The notion that a lower bench produces a more beautiful tone is a load
> of rubbish.

And more acoustical rubbish is your suggestion that it does!! I
certainly never said that, and neither have the very excellent
pianists Bozhanov and Schenck. Did you even bother to listen to a few
examples of the latter that I sent? [Maybe you didn’t know the works:
The Godowsky arrangements of Chopin’s "Black Key" etude.

>Tone is first heard in the ear and then duplicated by the
> pianist at the keyboard.

Now THAT is a correct statement, and the pity is that you can’t see
that is exactly what Bozh and Schenck find their low benches allow
them to better produce and control.
Need I remind you (and others who may not have heard) to listen "anew"
to Bozh's great Mazurkas, Nocturnes, Waltzes, LvB 31/3.......et al.

It also takes me back 8 or more years to the time at G-P when _I
_stated_ this_ over and over, in differing words, with a certain
disbelieving “Andrew”, whom you should remember as another of your
protagonists at the time.

> A wide variety of positions are available to
> each pianist to produce such "tone", but first he has to have an aural
> image of what he wants to produce, then a piano capable of realizing
> what his inner ear dictates, and then go through whatever gyrations
> suit him best in order to produce that sound.

You’re sounding more and more like you do know something about playing
the piano - now. Or, you’ve done some good research since I brought
this topic up. The piano’s make and size are very important in the
hierarchy of beautiful tones (pp or ff) produced on it, but good
TUNING is just as necessary. I would take a 6'4" Kawai in excellent
tuning over a 9’ Hamburg Steinway in bad tune any day (for a
performance). [Here, I am speaking of an ability *to hear* especially,
e.g., the few cents difference in a very high-treble 3-string unison
or an unduly ‘waved’ octave.]

Some pianists have this
> magic (Cherkassky, for example), others don't (Rudolf Serkin).
> Beautiful tone does not make a good musician,

That’s too “Confucian” to be taken literally.

Never mind pianists who are judged very strictly on this by those who
*can* hear the difference. Tell that to first chair oboists in the
leading symphonies, or a 1st desk Horn player who’s about to play the
Tchaikovsky 5th symphony. Or better, tell it to a conductor.with a
discerning ear.

as Serkin and Josef
> Hoffman demonstrated in differing ways during their careers and
> Volodos and Mustonen continue to demonstrate today.
>

I’ve heard a great deal of beautiful tone from Volodos (Rachmaninoff
transcriptions, Schubert Sonata(s) ). But, you refuse to hear this
because Volodos is a BIG, somewhat overweight man, and you probably
think these attributes do not conflate with 'beautiful tone.' And
yes, he DOES appear to be bigger than Bolet (who I heard and met some
25 years ago).
Hoffman was never a big favorite, and of Mustonen I’ve heard very
little.

[gereco]

Yeah! It will have to be a big relief 'cause it doesn't look light!
Hope he has a rich aunt or uncle that picks up his airline tabs.

A website is in the making, but here's what the inimitable,
indefatigable Andrys has put up so far:

http://bozhanov.blogspot.com/2010/11/concert-schedule-listings.html#comments

[herman]

On 3 oct, 03:25, gereco <g...@gerriecollins.com> wrote:


>
> A website is in the making, but here's what the inimitable,
> indefatigable Andrys has put up so far:
>

Oh, well, if she's involved all bets are off.

They don't come any nuttier.

[JohnGavin]

On Oct 1, 7:02 pm, gereco <g...@gerriecollins.com> wrote:
> Some time back, I remember discussing herethe pianist Evgeny
> Bozhanov's preference for a very low seated position at the piano.  In
> fact, he carries his own personally-made bench to all of his concerts.
> [Revealed at his VCC appearance in 2009]
>

> Some here found this an "inappropriate" (secondary) topic, others
> ventured a 'who cares' attitude.  I presume that those who made these
> comments were not pianists.
>

> Just for the record, I today discovered among my holdings a brief
> interview with Bozhanov in which he explains why he sits as low as he

> does, and why he cannot play WITHOUT this bench.  IIRC, most of what

> he says I tried to convey in my post.
>

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKQoHBLezgU&feature=related
>
> gc

Bozhanov strikes me as a very sincere man. I'm sure everything he
says is true for his own approach.
Who knows? Maybe he sat low from a very young age, and his approach
took shape because of that.

The only disagreement I have with his short interview is his saying
"you have more possibility of changing the tone with a low chair".
The "you" should have been "I".

I don't believe that sitting low is any kind of secret that other
pianists haven't discovered.

But again, the proof is in the seeing and hearing - and a wide survey
of pianists on YouTube will show that most pianists sit higher than he
does.

Here, for example is Lazarisdis drawing alot of power in the cadenza
of Rach's PC#1 - he does not sit low, and I detect no shortage or
tonal variations in his recordings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=pTVzR8xzBWo

[herman]

On 3 oct, 17:55, JohnGavin <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote:


>
> But again, the proof is in the seeing and hearing - and a wide survey
> of pianists on YouTube will show that most pianists sit higher than he
> does.
>

A survey of pianists in the concerthall will prove the same.

It's flakey to insist on a funny chair, but once you start there's no
going back.

For me, as an audience member, things like this set a performer back a
couple of notches, just like singalong pianists, stand-up string
quartets and conductors who always come late.

[pianomaven]

I agree.

Just distracts from the enjoyment of the music. Gould was something to
see, of course, but you had to work hard to shut your eyes, try not to
listen to the humming, and just concentrate on his playing. Thing is,
his tone was almost invariably bleak!!! And this despite the chair
custom-made for him by his father which was always in various stages
of falling apart. I never saw him play when it actually did collapse,
but I wager that it did when others weren't looking.

TD

[gereco]

On Oct 3, 10:55 am, JohnGavin <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Oct 1, 7:02 pm, gereco <g...@gerriecollins.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Some time back, I remember discussing herethe pianist Evgeny
> > Bozhanov's preference for a very low seated position at the piano.  In
> > fact, he carries his own personally-made bench to all of his concerts.
> > [Revealed at his VCC appearance in 2009]
>
> > Some here found this an "inappropriate" (secondary) topic, others
> > ventured a 'who cares' attitude.  I presume that those who made these
> > comments were not pianists.
>
> > Just for the record, I today discovered among my holdings a brief
> > interview with Bozhanov in which he explains why he sits as low as he
> > does, and why he cannot play WITHOUT this bench.  IIRC, most of what
> > he says I tried to convey in my post.
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKQoHBLezgU&feature=related
>
> > gc
>
> Bozhanov strikes me as a very sincere man.  I'm sure everything he
> says is true for his own approach.
> Who knows?   Maybe he sat low from a very young age, and his approach
> took shape because of that.
>
> The only disagreement I have with his short interview is his saying
> "you have more possibility of changing the tone with a low chair".
> The "you" should have been "I".

True. But I think it is clearly audible that he is not "at home" in
speaking English.

> I don't believe that sitting low is any kind of secret that other
> pianists haven't discovered.

Certainly no one averred that!

> But again, the proof is in the seeing and hearing - and a wide survey
> of pianists on YouTube will show that most pianists sit higher than he
> does.

Of course. That's the only reason why I mentioned his low posture,
the downwad slope of the thighs, the acute angle between leg and thing
(as compared to the ususal right, or even obtuse angle here. It is
most rare - except for Horowitz, Gould, Bar-Illan, Malcuzinski,
Schenck, and two of my former performing profs. Others that I've
forgotten.

> Here, for example is Lazarisdis drawing alot of power in the cadenza
> of Rach's PC#1 - he does not sit low, and I detect no shortage or
> tonal variations in his recordings.
>

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=pTVzR8xzBWo- Hide quoted text -

Have you listened to any of the Bozh recordings I and othesr have
recommended, and can you say that his tonal variance is not unique -
among the younger generation of pianists? [Presuming you have good
computer speakers, or hookups to accessory ones.] All the talk is
about the "Blue Boys" '(Trifonov and Wunder) wonderful tone. Well, he
could give them lessons not only in TONE but in vibrant, kaleidoscopic
rhythmic and tonal variety in a subatomic particle style.

gc
>

[JohnGavin]

> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=pTVzR8xzBWo-Hide quoted text -

>
> Have you listened to any of the Bozh recordings I and othesr have
> recommended, and can you say that his tonal variance is not  unique -
> among the younger generation of pianists?  [Presuming you have good
> computer speakers, or hookups to accessory ones.]  All the talk is
> about the "Blue Boys" '(Trifonov and Wunder) wonderful tone.  Well, he
> could give them lessons not only in TONE but in vibrant, kaleidoscopic
> rhythmic and tonal variety in a subatomic particle style.
>
> gc
>
>
>
>

I will check out his recordings. Thanks Gerrie - interesting subject.

[JohnGavin]

On Oct 3, 12:19 pm, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 3 oct, 17:55, JohnGavin <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > But again, the proof is in the seeing and hearing - and a wide survey
> > of pianists on YouTube will show that most pianists sit higher than he
> > does.
>
> A survey of pianists in the concerthall will prove the same.
>
> It's flakey to insist on a funny chair, but once you start there's no
> going back.
>

Right, gimmicks are annoying, but I'm not sure in this case if it's
the pianist himself making a big deal about his bench, or the
interviewer.
Actually his bench, other than being low, looks quite normal.

Even with Gould, with his hand warmers and wobbly chair - did others
make a big deal of those things, or did he??

[herman]

On 3 oct, 19:26, JohnGavin <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote:


>
> Even with Gould, with his hand warmers and wobbly chair - did others
> make a big deal of those things, or did he??

Oh, you betcha. Gould was as canny a media manipulator as the Beatles
were, ever willing to provide the funny quote and the arresting image.

[gereco]

On Oct 3, 11:19 am, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 3 oct, 17:55, JohnGavin <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > But again, the proof is in the seeing and hearing - and a wide survey
> > of pianists on YouTube will show that most pianists sit higher than he
> > does.
>
> A survey of pianists in the concerthall will prove the same.

This is sucha non sequitor. NO ONE said that the seating heights of
99% of pianists (that are known/seen) are no fairly uniform. Because
Bozhanov's (and some others) is an exception to the rule, is the only
reason it is mentioned. If you play the piano at all, or can only
knoc out chop sticks, try rolling a concetr bench down to its lowest
position, and then see how it "feels" to play.

> It's flakey to insist on a funny chair, but once you start there's no
> going back.

You exhibit your 'flakiness' by your ignorance-of-the-whole-concept
comments.

> For me, as an audience member, things like this set a performer back a
> couple of notches,

OMG! You judge a performance by eyes??

Can you understand that this whole "bench" thing is mentioned ONLY
because it is a rare approach for piano posture, and with such
spectacular results. ANd please try to understand that this does NOT
imply that spectacular results have not been achieved with regular, or
"normal" seating heights.

>just like singalong pianists, stand-up string
> quartets and conductors who always come late.

Sorry - your attempt at humor misses the mark. You're trying to make
a mountain out of a molehill when the latter functions quite
affectively in and by itself.

gc

[gereco]

On Oct 3, 12:26 pm, JohnGavin <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Oct 3, 12:19 pm, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:> On 3 oct, 17:55, JohnGavin >

> > It's flakey to insist on a funny chair, but once you start there's no
> > going back.
>

> Right, gimmicks are annoying, but I'm not sure in this case if it's
> the pianist himself making a big deal about his bench, or the
> interviewer.
> Actually his bench, other than being low, looks quite normal.

Now I almost regret having even brought up the subject of *Bozh's*
bench height, if ONLY because he is such a spectacular pianist who you
can HEAR is 'carving' every note in a phrase to his inimitable aural
concept.

Even voicing the word "gimmick" in relation to his bench (just an
ORDINARY bench from looks) is almost sacrilegious to the pianist's
honesty and intent.

gc

[herman]

On 3 oct, 19:42, gereco <g...@gerriecollins.com> wrote:

.
>
> Sorry - your attempt at humor misses the mark.  You're trying to make
> a mountain out of a molehill when the latter functions quite
> affectively in and by itself.
>
> gc

You created the mountain, by first saying all good pianists you knew
of played from a low seat.

And you've done it again. You didn't open a topic about EB's
interesting music.

You opened a topic about EB's LOW bench.

You're the one who's always talking about his hiney.

[pianomaven]

On Oct 3, 1:17 pm, gereco <g...@gerriecollins.com> wrote:

> Have you listened to any of the Bozh recordings I and othesr have
> recommended, and can you say that his tonal variance is not  unique -
> among the younger generation of pianists?  [Presuming you have good
> computer speakers, or hookups to accessory ones.]  All the talk is
> about the "Blue Boys" '(Trifonov and Wunder) wonderful tone.  Well, he
> could give them lessons not only in TONE but in vibrant, kaleidoscopic
> rhythmic and tonal variety in a subatomic particle style.

I have listened to all of Bozhanov's performances at the VCC and also
at the Chopin Competition. He is a fascinating musician, if what I
call a work in progress. But his "tone" is not what makes him special,
in my opinion, but his musical imagination. Lots of pianists have
tonal variety in their playing but end up being wayward, precious, or
just boringly self-regarding. Bozhanov doesn't do that, but I can well
understand that some find his playing eccentric. Clearly the jury in
Warsaw and Fort Worth did. Frankly, I think Trifonov is almost
unwatchable; the facial contortions are completely over the top and
distract from what he is doing at the keyboard. Moreover, they are a
waste of energy; they don't help him one bit. Wunder I have only
heard, not seen, but his recent recital is quite magical, in my
opinion. I look forward to hearing him in person.

As I do ALL of these young musicians. It is far too early to pick
favourites, which is not my interest anyway. It smacks too much of the
insidious competition atmosphere where one is rooting for one's guy or
girl to win. Enough already! Let's just see if they have what it takes
for the long haul and if they have something to say now and in twenty
years from now. We all know what happened to Ashkenazy, for example,
over a period of decades. And many, many others, I have to say. Very
disappointing.

Incidentally, for someone so obviously gifted, I looked at the
forthcoming engagements for Bozhanov and was disheartened. He deserves
more. Now look at Wunder or Trifonov and see how active they are. What
is the explanation? I don't have an answer, frankly, except to say
that people like competition winners. But there is always another
competition winner coming forward; you just have to wait a few months
or years and these guys may be old news.

Or, even better, have a look at Jan Lisiecki's schedule for the coming
year. No competition winner he, and yet at age 16 he has dozens and
dozens of engagements this season, some in the most prestigious
venues: Verbier, Orchestre de Paris (he opened its season), etc. Such
success says something about his charisma and also his playing, I
think, and also his charming personality as a gifted teenager.

TD

[pianomaven]

Correct.

Implying that this is the magic answer to beautiful tone (it isn't:
see GG) and that anyone who doesn't see this is an idiot or knows
nothing about piano-playing etc. All the usual garbage. And in the
meantime, like our resident Nazi-fuck, enthroning the poster as some
kind of know-it-all guru and the rest of us as ignrant cretins. This
is typical of both posters, actually, which makes their sparring so
fascinating: the two pretentious twits having at one another trying to
see who can out-insult the other. But finally, it is just B-O-R-I-N-
G!!!

TD

[herman]

On 3 oct, 19:17, gereco <g...@gerriecollins.com> wrote:

> can you say that his tonal variance is not  unique -
> among the younger generation of pianists?  [Presuming you have good
> computer speakers, or hookups to accessory ones.]  All the talk is
> about the "Blue Boys" '(Trifonov and Wunder) wonderful tone.  Well, he
> could give them lessons not only in TONE but in vibrant, kaleidoscopic
> rhythmic and tonal variety in a subatomic particle style.
>

"subatomic particle style"?

Is this a joke?

You're looking at these things through a microscope.

You want a new "generation of pianists" every five minutes.

And yet you don't even know Olli Mustonen, a pianist with a major
career, who is one generation before Bozhanov.

And there are a great many pianists who have yet to fully deploy, and
who deserve your time, even though they've quit the competition horse
race.

The idea is not to "support" pianists (or "retract your support" when
they happen to not share your political views), but to just listen to
what these people do without trying to step in.

[gereco]

Well you’ve just raised the concept of nuttiness to its diametrically
opposite meaning.
Andrys is one of the most knowledgeable, accomplished, and
cosmopolitan persons on the internet of talk and web forums, in music
and photography. She has researched independently and
collaboratively in numerous world-of-music investigations and world-
wide photographic points of interest. Her website for Martha Argerich
remains one of the most thorough and frequented of the pianist.
Many of her spectacular photographs of icons in Egypt, Italy, Peru,
and Turkey (probably more) have been chosen for Travel magazines and
other artistic periodicals.

If she taught a course in nuttiness, I would recommend that you
register for it.


gc

[gereco]

On Oct 3, 1:54 pm, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 3 oct, 19:17, gereco <g...@gerriecollins.com> wrote:
>
> > can you say that his tonal variance is not  unique -
> > among the younger generation of pianists?  [Presuming you have good
> > computer speakers, or hookups to accessory ones.]  All the talk is
> > about the "Blue Boys" '(Trifonov and Wunder) wonderful tone.  Well, he
> > could give them lessons not only in TONE but in vibrant, kaleidoscopic
> > rhythmic and tonal variety in a subatomic particle style.
>
> "subatomic particle style"?
>
> Is this a joke?

Yes it is, and the fact that you have to ASK is pitiable.

> You're looking at these things through a microscope.

Nope. You cannot ‘see’ subatomic particles with ordinary microscopes,
but they can be‘seen’ at the Large Hadron Collider in Geneva. If
you don’t have even a teeny bit of awareness of what this is, I advise
you to look it up. For just one thing, it is the biggest machine on
earth and it lies 200-300 feet below earth.

> You want a new "generation of pianists" every five minutes.

Stupid.

> And yet you don't even know Olli Mustonen, a pianist with a major
> career, who is one generation before Bozhanov.

There can be only one Bozhanov.

> And there are a great many pianists who have yet to fully deploy, and
> who deserve your time, even though they've quit the competition horse
> race.

I know quite a few of them, predominately Yeol Eum Son, Marianna
Vacatello, and have championed them here and elsewhere.

> The idea is not to "support" pianists (or "retract your support" when
> they happen to not share your political views), but to just listen to
> what these people do without trying to step in.

It's unreal how you remember this old stuff, and still are "smarting"
from the fact that I didn't appreciate Zimerman's political rants at
his *concerts* in the US. Talk about a captive audience!

Otherwise, I am 'honored' that you seem to remember - and eagerly
revive - some of my past philoisophical blurbs, political or musical.
Must have made an impression!

Strange how I can't remember any of yours.

gc

[herman]

On 3 oct, 21:57, gereco <g...@gerriecollins.com> wrote:

>
> It's unreal how you remember this old stuff, and still are "smarting"
> from the fact that I didn't appreciate Zimerman's political rants at
> his *concerts* in the US.   Talk about a captive audience!

Why would I be hurt by the stupidities you inflict on yourself?

[Dufus]

On Oct 3, 1:31 pm, gereco <g...@gerriecollins.com> wrote:

> Andrys is one of the most knowledgeable, accomplished, and
> cosmopolitan persons on the internet of talk and web forums, in music
> and photography.

Agreed.

Dufus

[Dufus]

On Oct 3, 1:16 pm, pianomaven <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Or, even better, have a look at Jan Lisiecki's schedule for the coming
> year. No competition winner he, and yet at age 16 he has dozens and
> dozens of engagements this season, some in the most prestigious
> venues: Verbier, Orchestre de Paris (he opened its season), etc. Such
> success says something about his charisma and also his playing, I
> think, and also his charming personality as a gifted teenager.
>

As with Grosvenor.

Dufus

[gereco]

The fact that you chose only this paragraph to comment on is telling.

How much is M-f paying you to carry his line?

[SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT]

Seconded!!

Henk

[O]

In article <4e8a37f5$0$2504$e4fe...@news2.news.xs4all.nl>, HvT <

Third!

-Owen

[laraine]

On Oct 2, 1:44 pm, pianomaven <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Oct 2, 2:07 pm, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 2 oct, 18:11, laraine <larai...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > My piano bench doesn't adjust at all, but
> > > I tried to simulate it by scrunching a bit,
> > > and leaning back. It does gives a softer
> > > tone. I see Bozhanov leaning back sometimes
> > > like that, which maybe makes him seem a
> > > bit kingly, but I think he is just
> > > adjusting the sound.
>
> > > C.
>
> > It doesn't take a lot of effort to imagine how Charles Rosen would
> > tear down this notion of sitting low and leaning back to get a softer
> > tone.
>
> > However, it's just not woth the effort. Lots of pianists are capable
> > of getting every kind of sonority shade without sitting on a baby
> > chair.
>

> > It's all a gimmick.
>

> Horowitz once demonstrated that he could produce a beautiful tone with
> his elbow!!!
>

> The notion that a lower bench produces a more beautiful tone is a load

> of rubbish. Tone is first heard in the ear and then duplicated by the
> pianist at the keyboard. A wide variety of positions are available to

> each pianist to produce such "tone", but first he has to have an aural
> image of what he wants to produce, then a piano capable of realizing
> what his inner ear dictates, and then go through whatever gyrations

> suit him best in order to produce that sound. Some pianists have this

> magic (Cherkassky, for example), others don't (Rudolf Serkin).

> Beautiful tone does not make a good musician, as Serkin and Josef

> Hoffman demonstrated in differing ways during their careers and
> Volodos and Mustonen continue to demonstrate today.
>

> TD
>
> TD

Maybe Horowitz could do that, but I
can't, certainly not while playing a
piece, and it doesn't sound easy.

One does try for a certain sound, of
course, but one doesn't always succeed!

I personally find it difficult to do a
sudden ppp that I might see in some early
20th c. music, for example.

All I can say is to try what I suggested
yourself. When I say "scrunch", I mean
keep the body straight while leaning back.
You get, while pressing the keys exactly
the same way, a softer tone (not
necessarily more 'beautiful').

C.

[gereco]

On Oct 3, 6:58 pm, O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
> In article <4e8a37f5$0$2504$e4fe5...@news2.news.xs4all.nl>, HvT <

Keep 'm coming!

I might send them all to her.
Not that such endorsements-encomiums could possibly be a surprise, I
would wager.

[pianomaven]

On Oct 3, 2:31 pm, gereco <g...@gerriecollins.com> wrote:

> If she taught a course in nuttiness, I would recommend that you register for it.

I would recommend that you give the course.

TD

[pianomaven]

No. She lurks.

TD

[pianomaven]

Yours are easily found in the archive. Memory is unnecessary for such
research. Your idiocies are but a click away.

Some of us, however, feel that once is enough. To revisit such dumb
pronouncements is hardly desirable.

TD

[pianomaven]

Grosvenor is a talented youngster. Of this there is no doubt. But he
is, so far as I can tell, without discipline of that talent. Art is
not produced by undisciplined display of digital dexterity, only
surface pleasures. Sorry, I am waiting for him to grow up a bit and
get over his youthful indiscretions. Nothing he has done to date comes
even close to the achievement of Lisiecki's two Chopin concertos at
age 12.

TD

[gereco]

I would welcome the chance to exceed you, my major professor in the
subject.

gc

[Dufus]

On Oct 3, 8:05 pm, pianomaven <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Nothing he has done to date comes
> even close to the achievement of Lisiecki's two Chopin concertos at
> age 12.
>

"Even close " ? Hyperbole extended to the absurd.

Dufus

[pianomaven]

I don't think so, actually.

I haven't heard his latest effort, however, so put off was I by his
slovenly spineless Gershwin of a year ago. Perhaps he has grown
artistically since then?

But I do know what he was doing at 12 and nothing then comes close to
Lisiecki's achievement in those two Chopin Picos. Have you heard them,
by the way? Not sure they are on YouTube, which seems your only source
of listening.

TD

[JohnGavin]

On Oct 4, 6:00 am, pianomaven <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 3, 10:28 pm, Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 3, 8:05 pm, pianomaven <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >Nothing he has done to date comes
> > > even close to the achievement of Lisiecki's two Chopin concertos at
> > > age 12.
>
> > "Even close " ? Hyperbole extended to the absurd.
>
> I don't think so, actually.
>
> I haven't heard his latest effort, however, so put off was I by his
> slovenly spineless Gershwin of a year ago. Perhaps he has grown
> artistically since then?
>

You have to be talking about the Gershwin-Grainger "Love Walked In".

Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ewEbGae_BM

Is this playing slovenly? I guess we just hear differently.
It is played with freedom, but slovenly?


B. Grosvenor's Decca debut is, however, playing of far greater stature
than the "This and That" CD, which did, admittedly contain some
interpretively green playing.

[Dufus]

On Oct 4, 5:00 am, pianomaven <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Have you heard them,
> by the way? Not sure they are on YouTube, which seems your only source
> of listening.

Yes,I have heard the F minor. Lisiecki is also at YT,including the
Chopin F minor Concerto. ( And many of those videos are his own
postings , as he understands the value of that forum . ) If memory
serves,I also heard a recent live solo recital radio broadcast either
on the CBC or at BBC Radio 3. I also watched/listened to his recital
at Verbier 2011, which recital I commented upon very favorably here.

Your comment was "nothing" Grosvenor has done "to date" equals
Lisiecki's playing at age 12 in the Chopin concerti , yet you have
apparently not listened to Grosvenor's Decca cd ( the youngest solo
artist ever signed by Decca and the first English pianist signed by
Decca in over 60 years) , nor his two 2011 Proms concerto performances
including First Night, nor earlier concerto performances of Schumann,
Saint- Saens, Ravel, Chopins.( One of his Ravel is at YT). I have
obviously not heard all of Lisiecki, but have heard both pianists and
recently.

As to Liesiecki's playing at age 12, at age 11 Grosvenor won the piano
section of the BBC Young Musician of the Year competition, playing the
Ravel Concerto in G, and also that year debuted with the Mozart K.467,
a concerto he repeats soon with the Orchestra of the Swan in Britain,
which orchestra appointed him their "associate artist" for 2011/2012.
(Grosvenor at age 11, playing Carl Vine's " 5 Bagatelles":
http://tinyurl.com/66mp9dm)

Grosvenor is no slouch in Chopin concerti , either. Here is a review
of the E minor at age 15 : http://tinyurl.com/5uvaxm5
Grosvenor was asked to play the F minor in Warsaw in August,2010 as
part of a Chopin anniversary celebration. I've heard his F Minor, and
it compares favorably, at the very least, with Lisiecki, who I suspect
plays the F minor a little better now than when 12.

I merely mentioned Grosvenor as a youngster to watch,along with
Lisiecki,whom I praised after his Verbier. You then depreciated
Grosvenor's playing , despite having stated you have no "favorites" .
We are fortunate there are alternatives, such as these two
pianists ,to what the competition mills produce at times.

Dufus

[pianomaven]

On Oct 4, 1:32 pm, Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 4, 5:00 am, pianomaven <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Have you heard them,
> > by the way? Not sure they are on YouTube, which seems your only source
> > of listening.
>
> Yes,I have heard the F minor. Lisiecki is also at YT,including the
> Chopin F minor Concerto.

This is all very nice. But I do believe that you have NOT heard the
two Chopin Picos published by the Chopin Foundation Warsaw. Right?
YouTube? Puhleeze!!!

>
> Your comment was "nothing" Grosvenor has done "to date" equals
> Lisiecki's playing at age 12 in the Chopin concerti , yet you have
> apparently not listened to Grosvenor's Decca cd ( the youngest solo
> artist ever signed by Decca and the first English pianist signed by
> Decca in over 60 years) , nor his two 2011 Proms concerto performances
> including First Night, nor earlier concerto performances of Schumann,
> Saint- Saens, Ravel, Chopins.( One of his Ravel is at YT).

Correct. The Decca has not yet been issued here. I will no doubt get
around to it in due course.

I didn't watch the Proms. The downloads simply cost too much for me
here.

I have
> obviously not heard all of Lisiecki,  but have heard both pianists and
> recently.

I keep coming back to my statement about the two Chopin Picos recorded
at age 12.

These you have NOT heard.

> As to Liesiecki's playing at age 12, at age 11 Grosvenor won the piano
> section of the BBC Young Musician of the Year competition, playing the
> Ravel Concerto in G, and also that year debuted with the Mozart K.467,
> a concerto he repeats soon with the Orchestra of the Swan in Britain,
> which orchestra  appointed him their "associate artist" for 2011/2012.
> (Grosvenor at age 11, playing Carl Vine's " 5 Bagatelles":http://tinyurl.com/66mp9dm)
>
> Grosvenor is no slouch in Chopin concerti , either. Here is a review
> of the E minor at age 15 :http://tinyurl.com/5uvaxm5
> Grosvenor was asked to play the F minor in Warsaw in August,2010 as
> part of a Chopin anniversary celebration. I've heard his F Minor, and
> it compares favorably, at the very least, with Lisiecki, who I suspect
> plays the F minor a little better now than when 12.

Haven't heard his Chopin Pico. I am giving him a rest after an
atrocious and spineless recital I heard from Scotland. After this I
figure he should stick to his books for a while.

> I merely mentioned Grosvenor as a youngster to watch,along with
> Lisiecki,whom I praised after his Verbier. You then depreciated
> Grosvenor's playing , despite having stated you have no "favorites" .
> We are fortunate there are alternatives, such as these two
> pianists ,to what the competition mills produce at times.

I have NO favourites. No point. These two pianists are simply two
among dozens and dozens of young musicians trying to make a name for
themselves. I wish them all good luck. They will need it, for sure.

But I am not about to be swallowed up by the hype and hysteria
surrounding one particular British pianist who, on at least one
occasion, has revealed his callowness. Nor do I give a fig for the
notion that Grosvenor is the first British pianist to be signed by
Decca since Curzon. Shame on them!!! They could have signed many other
fine musicians since then and even now. But prodigies are "in" at the
moment, it would seem.

TD

[Dufus]

On Oct 4, 12:47 pm, pianomaven <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote:

> This is all very nice. But I do believe that you have NOT heard the
> two Chopin Picos published by the Chopin Foundation Warsaw. Right?

> YouTube? Puhleeez!

You should advise Maestro Lisiecki, who has posted several at YT
himself.

> I keep coming back to my statement about the two Chopin Picos recorded
> at age 12.

Lisiecki played them better at 12, than his 13 and 15 I heard ?! You
have not heard ANY of Grosvenor's Chopin concerti ; I have.

I keep coming back to your original comment Grosvenor "to date" has
not matched Lisiecki at 12. A comment that was not generated by any
adverse comment about Lisiecki.

> one particular British pianist who, on at least one

> occasion, .has revealed his callowness.

Your venemous assessment is held only by you. Dismissing Grosvenor as
"not even close" is an absurdity I'm confident would embarrass
Lisiecki, whose Verbier recital I praised highly,btw.But I forgot, no
good deed goes unpunished.

<But prodigies are "in" at the
> moment, it would seem.

As it seems with Liesiecki, evidenced by the "dozens of engagements"
you tout, and of course by Lisiecki's signing with DG.to an exclusive
contract in Feb.,2011, at 16, even before Grosvenor's Decca in March,
2011, at 18.

The last thing these young geniuses need is 2 old farts with no
talent sparring about them, even if you deserve rebuke for your
unprovoked nastiness , but have the last word if you wish.

Dufus

[pianomaven]

On Oct 4, 7:05 pm, Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 4, 12:47 pm, pianomaven <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > This is all very nice. But I do believe that you have NOT heard the
> > two Chopin Picos published by the Chopin Foundation Warsaw. Right?
> > YouTube? Puhleeez!
>
> You should advise Maestro Lisiecki, who has posted several at YT
> himself.

Why should I care what Lisiecki does or doesn't do to promote himself.
\?

> > I keep coming back to my statement about the two Chopin Picos recorded
> > at age 12.
>
> Lisiecki played them better at 12, than his 13 and 15  I heard ?!

In fact, yes.

There was something going on in that child's imagination which could
not easily be repeated.

You
> have not heard ANY of Grosvenor's Chopin concerti ; I have.

This is correct.

> As it seems with Liesiecki,  evidenced by the "dozens of engagements"
> you tout, and of course by Lisiecki's signing with DG.to an exclusive
> contract in Feb.,2011, at 16, even before Grosvenor's Decca in March,
> 2011, at 18.

I am not "touting" for Liesicki, merely pointing out a few relevant
FACTS!!!

> The last thing  these young geniuses need is 2 old farts with no
> talent sparring about them, even if you deserve rebuke for your
> unprovoked nastiness , but have the last word if you wish.

The last word here is not the final word, as you know. We will both be
dead when these two musicians have come to maturity.

What is incumbent upon us as two old farts is to point out what is
good and what is not so good in their beginning years as performing
musicians. I reject out of hand your accusations of "nastiness". I try
to call them as I hear them, you know. Can't always get it right.
Don't know anyone who does. But there is not an ounce of nastiness in
my criticisms of performances of Gershwin and Chopin which were
distressinly callow, spineless and rhythmically slovenly. At the time
I said he needed a few years with Gar Graffman. And bingo, Decca signs
the kid to a contract and everyone is screaming "genius" from the
rooftops.

Hold on a second, is what I say. Let's see what happens.

Mr. Lisiecki was not satisfactory in a mid/late Beethoven sonata in
Stratford either. He'll no doubt do better as he grows. Perhaps his
training with Marc Durand in Toronto will be good for him. I have to
say I worry that he is playing too much at the moment. He needs the
time and space to grow as a musician. And yet, he played Ravel's
Ondine every bit as well as MAH did a few weeks beforehand in Ottawa.
Amazing for a kid of 16. But Ravel's showy finger-buster is quite
different from Beethoven. We'll see.

TD