Warner remastering Schnabel Beethoven - Can they better MOT/Naxos?

[Randy Lane]

Amazon.de listing says 2016 remasterings.

https://www.amazon.de/Smtl-Klaviersonaten-Remastered-2016-Schnabel-Artur/dp/B01GIUNCNM/

[R. Edwards]

On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 6:31:50 PM UTC-4, Randy Lane wrote:
> Amazon.de listing says 2016 remasterings.
>
> https://www.amazon.de/Smtl-Klaviersonaten-Remastered-2016-Schnabel-Artur/dp/B01GIUNCNM/

Remastered from what? Keith Hardwick's transfers? Andrew Walter's transfers? Perhaps they just appropriated the Naxos transfers like Sony did for some of their Metropolitan Opera recordings. One thing is for sure: at that price they didn't start from scratch with the original 78s.

[Mark Obert-Thorn]

It depends if they find and use the original metal parts or 78 rpm vinyl pressings, who does the transfers, and how much processing they use. I would welcome a really good transfer from better source material than the shellacs, which was all that was available to me.

Mark O-T

[dk]

There is no guarantee metal masters were better
preserved than shellacs. They can corrode/oxidize.
It all depends on how they were stored.

dk

[Mark Obert-Thorn]

On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 1:20:54 AM UTC-4, dk wrote:
> There is no guarantee metal masters were better
> preserved than shellacs. They can corrode/oxidize.
> It all depends on how they were stored.

That's true, and this is why often a transfer from a good shellac pressing (think Victor "Z"s or Columbia "Viva-Tonals") can sound better than one made from a worn or corroded metal part. However, the Schnabel Beethoven sonatas were, with one exception (the "Hammerklavier", which came out on Victor pre-war "Gold" label pressings) hardly ever found on anything but crackly British HMVs. Quieter shellacs are generally not an option here (although I did find some marginally less-noisy French Disque Gramophones for my Naxos set).

The story I've always heard is that EMI did not keep the Schnabel Beethoven sonata metal parts after the GROC LPs from the early '60s came out, and that every official release up to this point has merely been a tweaking of their old LP master tapes. When I was researching in the RCA vaults back in 1979 and 1980, I seem to recall coming across some of the non-"Hammerklavier" sides on vinyl, presumably pressed up at the time RCA's own LP transfers came out in the mid-'50s. It's certainly possible they might have a complete set of vinyls and perhaps metal parts in the (now) Sony vaults. Also, since the sets came out in France, EMI's French subsidiary (now Warner's Erato) may have kept them as well, unless the Nazis had them destroyed during the war.

Mark O-T

[wkasimer]

On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 6:31:50 PM UTC-4, Randy Lane wrote:

> Amazon.de listing says 2016 remasterings.
>
> https://www.amazon.de/Smtl-Klaviersonaten-Remastered-2016-Schnabel-Artur/dp/B01GIUNCNM/

Well, if the Casals Bach Suites are any guide, EMI did a lot better the second time around, but their transfers were still not as good as those on Opus Kura and Pearl (by Seth Winner, IIRC), although the latest EMI has less audible surface noise. Winner also made terrific transfers of the Schnabel Beethoven sonatas, but again, you have to be able to tolerate a fair amount of surface noise.

If it's cheap enough, I'll probably try the new EMI Schnabel, if only out of curiosity.

[hidalgofes]

http://www.warnerclassics.de/release/550547,0190295975050/artur-schnabel-beethoven-the-complete-piano-sonatas

" Remastered from the original 78RPM discs, these legendary recordings can now be enjoyed in audio of unprecedented truthfulness and quality."

[George P]

On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 11:13:19 AM UTC-4, wkasimer wrote:
> On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 6:31:50 PM UTC-4, Randy Lane wrote:
> > Amazon.de listing says 2016 remasterings.
> >
> > https://www.amazon.de/Smtl-Klaviersonaten-Remastered-2016-Schnabel-Artur/dp/B01GIUNCNM/
>

> Well, if the Casals Bach Suites are any guide, EMI did a lot better the second time around, but their transfers were still not as good as those on Opus Kura ......

The Opus Kura transfers of the Casals Bach Suites is incredible! Better than Pearl or Naxos.

George

[wkasimer]

On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 8:55:42 PM UTC-4, George P wrote:

> The Opus Kura transfers of the Casals Bach Suites is incredible! Better than Pearl or Naxos.

When given the choice, I almost always prefer Opus Kura transfers. It's a pity that they've never done Schnabel's Beethoven, but Winner's transfers for Pearl are qualitatively similar - the emphasis is on making the instrument sound *real*, and never mind the surface noise...

[Mark Zimmer]

On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 6:33:22 PM UTC-5, hidalgofes wrote:
> http://www.warnerclassics.de/release/550547,0190295975050/artur-schnabel-beethoven-the-complete-piano-sonatas
>
> " Remastered from the original 78RPM discs, these legendary recordings can now be enjoyed in audio of unprecedented truthfulness and quality."
>
>

Could that fairly describe the original metal parts, or is that a concession that they're working from the shellacs too?

[David Fox]

It is highly doubtful the metal parts exist at this point. If they had been rediscovered after 50+ years, Warner's would be crowing about it and we'd know about it. No, the sources for the Schnabel Beethoven are what they are. I'd be shocked if Warners did even as good of a job (let alone better) than MO-T, Seth Winner, et al. Hope springs eternal, but it is fighting against a mountain of facts and history.

DF

[vhorowitz]

It doesn't bother you that they have no idea how to join 78 rpm sides together? Or that they consider hum and rumble part of the unadulterated experience the seek to provide? Or that they aren't very picky about the LP copies they often use? I'm not advocating overly interventionist techniques, but some simple professional competence and critical acumen would go a long way to alleviating the feeling of playing Russian roulette when buying one of their issues. "Razor blade" style side joins, with NO musical continuity, show that they can't be bothered to spend $80 for an editing program and find engineers that are capable of learning how to use such programs. There are hundreds of engineers capable of such basics, so why support such arrogant attitudes? But then again, there are those who criticize EMI's "historical" SACD issues for not being straight DSD transfers, and would rather have all manner of debris and problems left uncorrected in the name of supposed sonic purity.

In any case, here's hoping that Schnabel's Beethoven from EMI will be a pleasant surprise, and not another band-aid version of what we've been getting for decades from those old, old transfers.

[vhorowitz]

Sorry, I'm not sure it's clear that I'm talking about Opus Kura in the above rant, since the quote may not show!

[Frank Berger]

It would be useful if you would mention some examples if
their poor workmanship.

[Frank Berger]

> their poor workmanship. ^
of

[wkasimer]

On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 3:31:02 PM UTC-4, vhorowitz wrote:

> It doesn't bother you that they have no idea how to join 78 rpm sides together? Or that they consider hum and rumble part of the unadulterated experience the seek to provide? Or that they aren't very picky about the LP copies they often use? <

It's more important that a cello sound like a cello, a piano like a piano, and Gerhard Hüsch like Gerhard Hüsch.

I've heard too many transfers with superb side joins and reduction of surface noise that have managed to suck all of the life out of the recording.

[R. Edwards]

Would you care to cite some examples of commercial CD transfers where a cello doesn't sound like a cello, or a piano not like a piano, etc, just as a point of reference so we know where you're coming from taste-wise?

[wkasimer]

On Thursday, June 9, 2016 at 9:00:41 PM UTC-4, R. Edwards wrote:

> Would you care to cite some examples of commercial CD transfers where a cello doesn't sound like a cello, or a piano not like a piano, etc, just as a point of reference so we know where you're coming from taste-wise? <

Try the first EMI transfer of the Casals Bach Suites. Or the Naxos transfer of Edwin Fischer's WTC.

[R. Edwards]

Thanks for the examples. I don't remember the first transfer of the Casals Bach Cello Suites (1960's Great Recordings of the Century COLH (Les gravures illustres) series LPs, but if it compares with the dreadful Ledin Fischer WTC, then I see your point.

However, I have to agree with vhorowitz. I can understand Opus Kura's desire to be non-interventionist (like their predecessor Symposium’s “Authentic Transfer Process”). But to do so also means that you have to figure out _by listening_ what the original recording response curve is when playing back. Many of their 78rpm shellac transfers that I have sampled on their web site sound like they are being played back with an RIAA curve resulting in an overly bottom-heavy sound (Mengelberg, Furtwangler, Weingartner), others sound like they’ve been over de-noised to dullness (Beethoven concerto Kreisler/ Blech; Schubert trio - Hess, d’Aranyi, Salmond). The prominent 50Hz “Telefunken hum" in the Mengelberg Tchaikovsky Serenade for strings? Why leave that there? Loud tics and pops, many due to age and poor storage, left in. Heavy playback turntable rumble (exaggerated by the wrong playback EQ). It’s all seems rather amateurish and careless to me.

[wkasimer]

On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 12:37:37 AM UTC-4, R. Edwards wrote:

> Thanks for the examples. I don't remember the first transfer of the Casals Bach Cello Suites (1960's Great Recordings of the Century COLH (Les gravures illustres) series LPs,<

I was thinking of the first CD transfer:

https://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Suites-Cello/dp/B000TEVKBK

I did have them on LP...

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Six-Suites-Cello-Solo/dp/B009P0N440

... but I have no memory of the sound, and I was playing them on a very, very cheap system.

> Many of their 78rpm shellac transfers that I have sampled on their web site sound like <

I haven't spent much time listening on their website - to be honest, I find it hard to judge sound from such things, even if I play them through a real audio system. All I know, though, is that when I've compared Opus Kura to more easily available transfers (e.g. the Neveu Brahms, Casals Bach, Walter's Mahler, Szigeti's recording), I almost invariably prefer the Opus Kura versions. Perhaps I've just been lucky, or my sonic priorities differ from your own.

[Dan Fowler]

Did the Casals set of complete EMI recordings use the latest remastering of
the Bach suites? It's hard for me to tell from the online descriptions.
Thanks!
Dan

--
Dan Fowler

[wkasimer]

On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 9:48:46 AM UTC-4, Dan Fowler wrote:

> Did the Casals set of complete EMI recordings use the latest remastering of
> the Bach suites? It's hard for me to tell from the online descriptions.
> Thanks!

I don't know, since I never bought that set (I already had all of the recordings, mostly in multiple transfers). The latest EMI iteration of Casals' Bach is good, but not as good as Opus Kura's or Pearl's.

[Dan Fowler]

Thanks. I've heard lots of good things about the Opus Kura rendition, so I
placed an order for it. Love what I've heard of the performance from
listening to the latest EMI remastering on Spotify.

--
Dan Fowler

[drh8h]

If anything, their transfers are predominantly tipped to the high end of the frequency range and can be more than a little shrill. I listened to the Tchaikovsky Serenade from a CD and if the hum was there, it was heavily masked by higher frequencies and noise. I do think some of their more recent work has been better, but that is pretty much true of all 78 transfer engineers. I don't hear any plethora of loud ticks, but some people will not like the level of surface noise. I find them an interesting alternative to more interventionist engineering.

[drjohnl...@gmail.com]

Woops, pressed the send button by mistake. To continue, I also like the few sonatas that were released on Pearl.

Turning to some vinyl issues, the GR Japanese pressings are wonderful as are the COLH releases.

I think that the Warner re masters will probably find many advocates amongst those who like bright sound and an impression of outer detail especially in hi if systems that tend to be rolled off. Ultimately, they are not bad but there is much more to the music than they convey.