Collecting Mozart symphonies?
David7Gable
Symphony no. 36 ("Linz"), Symphony 38 ("Prague"), and Symphonies 39-41 (which
were written contemporaneously and probably conceived as a set) are the pick of
the litter, fully mature "late" works. (Symphony no. 37 is actually by Michael
Haydn: all Mozart did is add a slow introduction to the first movement.) I'm
fixated on the Linz and have more recordings of it than any other, of which my
favorite remains the Bernstein/Vienna Phil recording on Decca. A driven,
extremely intense, and strongly shaped performance.
I don't know if it's available, but a relatively painless way of getting your
hands on fine performances of all the Mozart symphonies from no. 29 on (and the
earlier ones are basically juvenilia) is to pick up the specially priced 4-CD
set with Daniel Barenboim and the English Chamber Orchestra on EMI. The
performances in this set range from the better than average to the sensational,
often from movement to movement, but Barenboim's performances are distinctively
shaped in the main. Occasionally one regrets his willingness to linger while
shaping rather than pressing onward and sustaining the momentum, but you could
do much worse, and, as I said, the best things in the set--the first movement
of the Linz, for example--are sensational.
-david gable
Thomas Muething
>Wanting to get more Mozart symphonies my questions are: 1) which
>"range" of symphonies are considered the best, i.e., the best ones to
>begin collecting?
>
Buying a complete set will save you a lot of money. The first 30+
symphonies may not be terribly distinguished, but since you like Mozart
so much, you will want them anyway.
>2) What are some recommended recordings (I do like
>period instruments but would like some with modern instruments as
>well)?
>
Among complete sets on modern instruments, I think Marriner and the
Academy-of-St-Martin-in-the-Fields is still a strong recommendation.
There is no weak link among them, and the later symphonies are very,
very well done. My own personal favorite is Charles Mackerras/Prague
Chamber Orchestra on Telarc, but I don't think many people around here
will agree with me.
Thomas
Paul Kintzele
"Stefan A." wrote:
>
> Wanting to get more Mozart symphonies my questions are: 1) which
> "range" of symphonies are considered the best, i.e., the best ones to
> begin collecting?
Generally speaking, 25-41, with 25, 29, and 35-41 being (in my view) the
most interesting.
>2) What are some recommended recordings (I do like
> period instruments but would like some with modern instruments as
> well)?
I'll mention three discs that I especially like:
40/41: Levine/Chicago/RCA. You already have period instrument versions
of these works, so this dynamic, red-blooded modern orchestra version
would be a nice alternative approach.
38("Prague")/39: Pinnock/English Concert/Archiv. Might be hard to
find, but there's a lot to like in these crisp, energetic
period-instrument performances.
33/35("Haffner"): Brown/Academy of St. Martin in the Fields/Hanssler.
The "Haffner" is currently my favorite Mozart symphony, and this
performance is just superb. Comes with a delightful 33. Excellent
recorded sound, too. This recording has been released at budget price
and is also available cheaply in the US through Berkshire.
The oft-mentioned Szell/Cleveland/Sony disc of 35/40/41 is good, but I
prefer the performances listed above to those on this disc.
Paul
Johannes Röhl
>
> A beginning collector, I like Mozart very much (especially the piano
> concerti) but own only one disc with his symphonies so far. I need to
> get more. The Gardiner/English Baroque Soloists disc with symphonies
> 40&41 on Philips (and period instruments) is one of my favorite discs.
> I plan to get the Gardiner on Philips with symphonies 38&39 as well.
>
> Wanting to get more Mozart symphonies my questions are: 1) which
> "range" of symphonies are considered the best, i.e., the best ones to
> period instruments but would like some with modern instruments as
> well)?
I think you can skip most of the eaerlier ones for a start,
but get 25 (the little g minor) and everything from 29 on.
The mature ones are 35,36 (1783,85) and 38-41 (1788)
For something rather different than most, I recommend
Harnoncourt with the Concertgebouw Orchestra. They recorded
all the ones I mentioned (all from 25 on or so) and they may
be available in various incarnation (Box and as single
issues, some also in any of the cheap series of the Warner
Company, so you can try a few first)
(In know the Gardiner 40/41 and find Harnoncourt more
interesting, though Gardiner ist also quite good)
You should also try some of Haydn's symphonies (if you
haven't yet), the "Paris" and "London" sets are good as a
starting point.
Johannes
Ray Hall
news:3D09AA3B...@physik.uni-giessen.de...
| "Stefan A." schrieb:
| >
| > A beginning collector, I like Mozart very much (especially the piano
| > concerti) but own only one disc with his symphonies so far. I need to
| > get more. The Gardiner/English Baroque Soloists disc with symphonies
| > 40&41 on Philips (and period instruments) is one of my favorite discs.
| > I plan to get the Gardiner on Philips with symphonies 38&39 as well.
| >
| > Wanting to get more Mozart symphonies my questions are: 1) which
| > "range" of symphonies are considered the best, i.e., the best ones to
| > begin collecting? 2) What are some recommended recordings (I do like
| > period instruments but would like some with modern instruments as
| > well)?
|
| I think you can skip most of the eaerlier ones for a start,
| but get 25 (the little g minor) and everything from 29 on.
| The mature ones are 35,36 (1783,85) and 38-41 (1788)
|
| For something rather different than most, I recommend
| Harnoncourt with the Concertgebouw Orchestra. They recorded
| all the ones I mentioned (all from 25 on or so) and they may
| be available in various incarnation (Box and as single
| issues, some also in any of the cheap series of the Warner
| Company, so you can try a few first)
Actually, I regret not picking up the Harnoncourt Mozart when available (6-7
years ago) on the cheap Teldec/Warner series. Damnit (I still have
nightmares about not picking them up when I could have). I wonder if they
can still be got?
The Walter (stereo) recordings are still excellent of course, (35-41), all
warm and fuzzy, but sometimes I think Mozart should be more abrasively done.
Regards,
# RMCR Contributor Links/Main Page :
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
< NEW Doris Day TV series news >
Ray, Sydney
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REG
symphonies IMHO is a set if the last 5. Although the sonics are not the
greatest, I would recommend either the Bruno Walter or, if you can find it
on import, the Beecham.
"David7Gable" <david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020614023312...@mb-cv.aol.com...
Johannes Röhl
>
> "Johannes Röhl" <johanne...@physik.uni-giessen.de> wrote in message
> news:3D09AA3B...@physik.uni-giessen.de...
> | "Stefan A." schrieb:
--snip---
> | I think you can skip most of the eaerlier ones for a start,
> | but get 25 (the little g minor) and everything from 29 on.
> | The mature ones are 35,36 (1783,85) and 38-41 (1788)
> |
> | For something rather different than most, I recommend
> | Harnoncourt with the Concertgebouw Orchestra. They recorded
> | all the ones I mentioned (all from 25 on or so) and they may
> | be available in various incarnation (Box and as single
> | issues, some also in any of the cheap series of the Warner
> | Company, so you can try a few first)
>
> Actually, I regret not picking up the Harnoncourt Mozart when available (6-7
> years ago) on the cheap Teldec/Warner series. Damnit (I still have
> nightmares about not picking them up when I could have). I wonder if they
> can still be got?
I am aware of some of them in at least three, probably more
different incarnations:
-single issues full price (with diferent covers, some were
later on sold cheaply anyway, I have 32-34 of these)
-at least the late 6 on "digital experience" (covers with a
silver-colored frame, I have 4 or so of these)
(I think the box with 31-41 was similarly designed)
-a few on "classical diamonds" (at least 29-31 as that`s one
I have here)
-maybe now on the new cheapo series "apex"
The concerti 23&26 with Gulda and the Haffner and Posthorn
serenades are somewhere as well and also recommended
(some may found many things irritating: too fast/too slow,
too soft, too wild, but I find all thes very interesting,
even if I do not agree with some of his choices)
If you want to try some examples, get 25, 39 and 40
The best way is probably to try European (German) sources as
www.jpc.de oder adorishop.de. I do not know about the
shipping cost to the antipodes, though. If they are
available at all, they should be very cheap (not more than
5-7 Euros/disk)
Johannes
Simon Roberts
"Stefan A." <stef...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:130620022118548248%stef...@fastmail.fm...
> A beginning collector, I like Mozart very much (especially the piano
> concerti) but own only one disc with his symphonies so far. I need to
> get more. The Gardiner/English Baroque Soloists disc with symphonies
> 40&41 on Philips (and period instruments) is one of my favorite discs.
> I plan to get the Gardiner on Philips with symphonies 38&39 as well.
Good disc - but avoid his 32/35/36 which is quite dull, lacking the
tension and drive the music needs.
>
> Wanting to get more Mozart symphonies my questions are: 1) which
> "range" of symphonies are considered the best, i.e., the best ones to
> begin collecting?
25, 29, 31-41, with special emphasis (well, for me, anyway) on 25, 36,
38-41.
2) What are some recommended recordings (I do like
> period instruments but would like some with modern instruments as
> well)?
Depends on your taste, which may be different from mine. I find most
performances of this music too genteel and bland, all about crispness
and cleanness and elegance and nothing much else. I used to find such
performances appealing (if they do to you, you might as well get
Marriner's box of the whole lot), but I don't think they say enough.
Here are some suggestions (hardly exhaustive) for some more strongly
flavored performances (you may find Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw
disconcertingly aggressive at times; then again, like me you may find it
revelatory):
25 Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw
29 Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Fey, Klemperer/Testament
31 Brueggen, Klemperer
32 Maag/Decca (in a class by himself, I think)
33 Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Brown, Klemperer
34 Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Gardiner, Klemperer
35 Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw
36 Brueggen (by a safe margin my favorite; no-one matches his verve in
iv, for instance), Klemperer, Schuricht
38 Maag/Decca (Japan only, I think, but worth the effort),
Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Brueggen, Gardiner, Maag/Arts,
Klemperer/Testament, Kubelik/Denon, Vegh
39 Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Gardiner, Klemperer/Testament,
Furtwaengler
40 Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Brueggen II (with the combined OAE and
Orch 18th C), Furtwaengler
41 I've yet to find a recording of this that I really like, partly
because most performances of i are so slow (there are numerous first
rate finales, such as Casals, Szell and Brueggen). Rare exceptions
include Coates and Clemens Kraus, but you may not be able to find them,
and anyway they're mono, which you also may not want (so are the
Klemperer/Testament performances, but they're well recorded and the
performances are so good it doesn't matter). But even if too slow,
Casals, Vegh (both recordings) and Klemperer/Testament (actually
surprisingly fast for him, at least) probably won't bore you.
Simon
Larry Eckerling
david...@aol.com wrote on 6/14/02 1:33 AM:
I too love the Bernstein/Vienna Linz. My favorite "set" though is Neville
Marriner and the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields....probably the last 10
symphonies or so (at least) are available...they go after and get the
perfectly balanced sound...the inner strings sparkle!
Larry Eckerling
Larry Rinkel
(which
> were written contemporaneously and probably conceived as a set) are the
pick of
> the litter, fully mature "late" works. (Symphony no. 37 is actually by
Michael
> Haydn: all Mozart did is add a slow introduction to the first movement.)
I'm
> fixated on the Linz and have more recordings of it than any other, of
which my
> favorite remains the Bernstein/Vienna Phil recording on Decca. A driven,
> extremely intense, and strongly shaped performance.
That Linz is coupled with LB playing and conducting the Concerto #15 in B
flat, K 450, a Bernstein specialty. Bernstein was also quite a helluva
pianist at his best (try also his early recording of the Ravel G major
concerto).
>
> I don't know if it's available, but a relatively painless way of getting
your
> hands on fine performances of all the Mozart symphonies from no. 29 on
(and the
> earlier ones are basically juvenilia)
Basically I agree, but some of the earlier works are worth seeking out too:
#25 in G minor in particular, and the second movement of #27 in G, a little
gem within an otherwise undinstinguished symphony.
Larry Rinkel
news:3D09955F...@t-online.de...
> >
> Among complete sets on modern instruments, I think Marriner and the
> Academy-of-St-Martin-in-the-Fields is still a strong recommendation.
> There is no weak link among them, and the later symphonies are very,
> very well done.
There is a Phillips 2-fer of the last five symphonies if you just want to
start there. To get the five pieces on two CDs, they had to divide #39
between the discs, but hey, that's life.
Jeremy Dimmick
>
> >Wanting to get more Mozart symphonies my questions are: 1) which
> >"range" of symphonies are considered the best, i.e., the best ones to
> >begin collecting?
...
> My own personal favorite is Charles Mackerras/Prague
> Chamber Orchestra on Telarc, but I don't think many people around here
> will agree with me.
>
> Thomas
>
I have one volume of their series (numbers 19-23, I think it is), and they
do a good job of selling these attractive, underrated symphonies. OK,
they're not to be compared in scale or sophistication with the last few
symphonies, but they're full of flair and invention, and I'd hate to be
without them. I don't think I've gone any *earlier* than 19, so I don't
know if that's about as far back as the interest recedes, but this is a plea
not to abandon everything before 29! The Prague / Mackerras performances
are sort of halfway-house in style - modern instruments plus a somewhat
excessively reverberant acoustic blunts the edges of the performance more
than I think is ideal, but the trumpets are terrific and do restore some of
the missing bite; Mackerras's direction is properly lively.
Jeremy
Simon Roberts
"Jeremy Dimmick" <jeremy....@stcatz.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:aecltf$jdc$1...@news.ox.ac.uk...
> >
> I have one volume of their series (numbers 19-23, I think it is), and
they
> do a good job of selling these attractive, underrated symphonies. OK,
> they're not to be compared in scale or sophistication with the last
few
> symphonies, but they're full of flair and invention, and I'd hate to
be
> without them. I don't think I've gone any *earlier* than 19, so I
don't
> know if that's about as far back as the interest recedes, but this is
a plea
> not to abandon everything before 29!
Indeed not, and you can safely go earlier than 19. Marriner, Mackerras,
and Pinnock are safe enough recommendations here, I suppose, but
Harnoncourt can be revelatory (he seems to be working his way through
all the early symphonies on Teldec with the VCM), making the music often
seem utterly different - bigger, more important, more interesting
dramatically.
Simon
Satid S.
>
> 2) What are some recommended recordings (I do like period
> instruments but would like some with modern instruments as well)?
I like Levine with Vienna Phil. on DG of no.38 "Prague" and no.25. He
uses left-right violin groups which sounds nice. If U R also inetrested
in Mozart's other orchestral music, I'd like to recommend Levine's
Posthorn Serenade with the same orchestra on DG Masters series (coupled
with Eine Klein Natchmuzik).
--
================================================
Satid S.
Thailand
Matthew B. Tepper
@english.upenn.edu:
> 40/41: Levine/Chicago/RCA. You already have period instrument
> versions of these works, so this dynamic, red-blooded modern orchestra
> version would be a nice alternative approach.
Yes, but has there ever been a CD edition which retains all the repeats,
included on the original surprisingly-long LP?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Foot-and-mouth; Charlotte Church
Norman M. Schwartz
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:DenO8.1013$LN6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Paul Kintzele <kint...@english.upenn.edu> wrote in news:3D0997E3.E2665858
> @english.upenn.edu:
>
> > 40/41: Levine/Chicago/RCA. You already have period instrument
> > versions of these works, so this dynamic, red-blooded modern orchestra
> > version would be a nice alternative approach.
>
> Yes, but has there ever been a CD edition which retains all the repeats,
> included on the original surprisingly-long LP?
>
Can you (or anyone else) provide the timings and catalog# for the above LP??? (The
CD version, RCA Red Seal RCD14413, btw digitally recorded 7/81 using the Soundstream
System at the Medinah Temple has always ranked highly amongst my favorites of
anything and everything!)
David7Gable
>#25 in G minor in particular,
Yes, I shouldn't have slighted this one in particular.
-david gable
David7Gable
>#25 in G minor in particular,
Larry, I should have asked, what's your favorite "little" G minor?
-dg
David7Gable
>warm and fuzzy, but sometimes I think Mozart should be more abrasively done.
>
Like the Mozart of Walter in earlier years. See, for example, the driven Met
Don Giovanni with Pinza and Walter. (Too driven, even, for me.)
-david gable
Tag Gallagher
David7Gable wrote:
If you think that one's driven, you'll have to invent a new word to describe
what Panizza did with it (the 1935 performance with Rosa Ponselle). Mozart sure
changed after ww2 !
Matthew B. Tepper
news:MZnO8.36952$LC3.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
I no longer have the LP (or if I did, it would be in storage), so I cannot
provide timings. But the CD was an early one, back in the days when
quality control was more expensive and more discs were rejected, so RCA cut
the repeats to make it easier to produce! The LP did have lots of repeats,
and was one of a bunch produced with "Direct Metal Mastering."
Paul Kintzele
"Matthew B. Tepper" wrote:
>
> Paul Kintzele <kint...@english.upenn.edu> wrote in news:3D0997E3.E2665858
> @english.upenn.edu:
>
> > 40/41: Levine/Chicago/RCA. You already have period instrument
> > versions of these works, so this dynamic, red-blooded modern orchestra
> > version would be a nice alternative approach.
>
> Yes, but has there ever been a CD edition which retains all the repeats,
> included on the original surprisingly-long LP?
Yes, RCA Gold Seal 09026-61397-2. Sym. 40/ii clocks in at an even 15
minutes (!), the only occasion, in my view, when including the repeats
works against the music.
Here are the individual timings, for those with an eariler version of
the cd:
Sym 40:
i - 7.14
ii - 15.00
iii - 3.55
iv - 8.42
Sym 41:
i - 10.54
ii - 10.18
iii - 4.26
iv - 11.01
TT: 72.04
Paul
Paul Goldstein
says...
>
>
>>#25 in G minor in particular,
>
>Larry, I should have asked, what's your favorite "little" G minor?
I'm not Larry, but my favorite by a wide margin is Britten's.
Paul Goldstein
Norman M. Schwartz
"Paul Kintzele" <kint...@english.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:3D0A1937...@english.upenn.edu...
These are essentially the same timings as on the RCA Red Seal CD issue, RCD14413,
which most likely is the *earliest* CD releases of these performances, The disc
label indicates: "1982 and Made in Japan". At that time I believe there were not
enough CD pressing plants up and running in the USA!
K.550: 7:20, 15:02, 3:56, 8:43
K.551: 11:01, 10:22, 4:28, 11:02
Now what remains to be determined are the timings on the LP issue referred to by Mr.
Tepper.
Dominique Gascon
I got them some of them recently from JPC, and they are also listed at
German Music Express. There are two sets at budget price with the
exact same coupling , both apparently available, one which being
inexplicably cheaper than the other.
To reply, remove the obvious from my address.
Dominique Gascon
dominique.gasc...@cgocable.ca
David7Gable
>symphonies may not be terribly distinguished, but since you like Mozart
>so much, you will want them anyway.
Very likely in most cases. But since Stefan is (a) new to classical music in
general and to Mozart in particular and (b) a grad student who probably doesn't
have enough money to buy the complete works of Mozart in one fell swoop,
shouldn't he put off acquiring the symphonies Mozart wrote as a teenager until
after he buys, say, Le nozze di Figaro, The Magic Flute, the later Piano
Concerti, the "Haydn" Quartets, the String Quintets, etc. etc. etc. etc.? The
genre of the symphony isn't even all that important in Mozart's output, at
least not compared to the String Quartet, String Quintet, Piano Concerto, opera
buffa, and Singspiel. Does this guy have representative examples from these
genres? If not, DON'T BUY THE EARLY MOZART SYMPHONIES.
-david gable
David7Gable
invent a new word to describe
>what Panizza did with it (the 1935 performance with Rosa Ponselle). Mozart
>sure
>changed after ww2 !
Amazing, too, given the propaganda against early 20th-century performances of
classical repertory as overly "Romantic." (How may I come by Ponselle/Panizza,
and who's the Don?)
-david gable
Alan Cooper
news:20020614023312...@mb-cv.aol.com...
> I don't know if it's available, but a relatively painless way of getting
your
> hands on fine performances of all the Mozart symphonies from no. 29 on
(and the
> earlier ones are basically juvenilia) is to pick up the specially priced
4-CD
> set with Daniel Barenboim and the English Chamber Orchestra on EMI.
I second David's recommendation, and note that this excellent set is
currently listed for about $20 at Berkshire (www.broinc.com) !
Some other recommendable Mozart symphony recordings that can be found there
are Walter's pre-war 38-41 as part of a 4-disk set on Lys (also just 38, 39,
41 on Arlecchino and, on the same label, the Krauss 41 that Simon praises),
several Marriner EMIs, the Klemperer recordings on Testament that Simon
recommends, Reiner's great Pittsburgh recordings of 35 and 40 (Sony),
Krivine's 23, 35, 38 on Denon (although I seem to be the only person who
likes it ;-), Kubelik's 35, 36 + Eine Kleine Nachtmusik on Royal Classics,
and last but not least, the 2-CD set of Fricsay's 29, 39, 40 and 41 on DG
for $8.
AC
Tag Gallagher
about 65 percent there. And of course Non mi dir is missing. R.Ponselle,
M.Müller, E.Fleischer, E.Pinza, V.Lazzari, T.Schipa, Louis d’Angelo, E.List. Met.
2.9.35.
william d. kasimer
> Actually, I regret not picking up the Harnoncourt Mozart when available (6-7
> years ago) on the cheap Teldec/Warner series. Damnit (I still have
> nightmares about not picking them up when I could have). I wonder if they
> can still be got?
I bought all of them within the last year, from
http://www.musicexpress.com, for about $8 per CD.
Bill
william d. kasimer
> 38("Prague")/39: Pinnock/English Concert/Archiv. Might be hard to
> find, but there's a lot to like in these crisp, energetic
> period-instrument performances.
I found them more efficient than enjoyable. But in any event, I
believe that the entire Pinnock series (he recorded all of the
symphonies, 12 CD's worth) are being issued this summer in one of
those "Collectors Series" boxes.
Personally, I have Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw for 25-41, and they're
good enough that I could probably jettison most of the other
recordings I own without feeling much sense of loss.
Bill
David7Gable
>good deal?
$5 per CD? Sounds like a good deal to me. On the other, hand that set was
never full price to begin with, although I have no idea what I paid for it.
You're probably getting it for half price.
-david gable
Matthew B. Tepper
news:20020614130155...@mb-fx.aol.com:
Pinza; cast also includes Tito Schipa and Maria Müller. I know of no CD
issue, but I think it was on one of the Eddie Smith LP series. The sound
is absolutely vile, somewhere between the Brahms cylinder and Toscanini
_Zauberflöte_ in "quality," with enormous amounts of wow in the last scenes
of Act II. And it's only about an hour and three-quarters of the score.
Pinza is great (although he can be heard in far better sound in later
years), Ponselle is creamy and dramatic at the same time, and as for my
beloved Tito Schipa, well, let's just say that as Don Ottavio, he looked
better than he sang, in this role.
Larry Rinkel
news:140620021130040642%stef...@fastmail.fm...
> In article <aeci9l$jqg$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, Simon Roberts
> <sd...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
> > Depends on your taste, which may be different from mine. I find most
> > performances of this music too genteel and bland, all about crispness
> > and cleanness and elegance and nothing much else. I used to find such
> > performances appealing (if they do to you, you might as well get
> > Marriner's box of the whole lot), but I don't think they say enough.
>
> I *do* find such performances appealing. Perhaps it's a "newbie"
> thing, and once you get more experience with the music you can better
> appreciate other ways of performing these works that initially might be
> "inaccessible"?
>
> --
> Stefan A.
Not necessarily. It may just be a matter of personal taste. I happen to like
Marriner a good deal, though I don't pretend to having Simon's range of
experience with various recordings. You won't go wrong with that Phillips
2-CD Marriner set I mentioned above.
But more to the point, as David G. brought up IN CAPITAL LETTERS earlier,
what other Mozart do you have? Do you have any of the piano concerti,
operas, or chamber music? If not, at least start with the inexpensive
Casadesus/Szell Piano Concertos #21 and #24, a Don Giovanni (the Colin Davis
set in the Mozart Complete Edition is good and mid-price; there's also a
cheap Naxos set but I don't know how good it is), and the Quintets (the
Talich ensemble on Calliope is good at mid-price; this 3-CD set includes the
wonderful clarinet quintet). Those are just some possibilities, but these
are works I'd rescue if the house was on fire sooner than most of the
symphonies.
Paul Goldstein
wkas...@quincymc.org says...
I enjoy hearing Harnoncourt's Mozart performances for the first time, but his
Dali-esque touches do wear thin upon repetition.
Paul Goldstein
Samir Golescu
On 14 Jun 2002, Paul Goldstein wrote:
> I enjoy hearing Harnoncourt's Mozart performances for the first time,
> but his Dali-esque touches do wear thin upon repetition.
I took the shortcut.
regards,
SG (:
Simon Roberts
"Paul Kintzele" <kint...@english.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:3D0A1937...@english.upenn.edu...
> Yes, RCA Gold Seal 09026-61397-2. Sym. 40/ii clocks in at an even 15
> minutes (!), the only occasion, in my view, when including the repeats
> works against the music.
It would help if he didn't take such a slow tempo (but then so do most);
it would also help if he didn't take all those damned repeats and/or did
more with the music ....
Simon
Lena
> 25, 29, 31-41, with special emphasis (well, for me, anyway) on 25, 36,
> 38-41.
And for me, 25 is not that necessary. In special emphasis I'd include
Haffner (35), as well as Paris (31). The early ones can be very charming
(I find them interesting from a kind of a developmental point of view) but
as most people said, it makes more sense to buy other Mozart first.
> 2) What are some recommended recordings
[good list snipped]
I second Harnoncourt, if you like energetic, more dramatic Mozart.
(Harnoncourt seems more successful to me in Mozart than in Beethoven, btw.)
Lena
Samir Golescu
On 14 Jun 2002, Lena wrote:
> I second Harnoncourt, if you like energetic, more dramatic Mozart.
> (Harnoncourt seems more successful to me in Mozart than in Beethoven, btw.)
If one may advance a hypothesis, that might be due to your adoring
Beethoven more than any other composer. . . (-:
regards,
SG
Lena
[on newbies and the importance of picking the right recording]
>Does any of this matter? I think so. Depending on the listener's
>preferences, starting off with the "wrong" performance can put you
>off a piece of music for a long time.
This is entirely in line with what I've seen happen most often. If
you're familiar with the composer or style you can hear "through" a
"bad" performance, but otherwise it's only too easy to discard a
piece and not realize your incompatibility with the performer was the
problem.
(Actually, this has happened to me, even recently, even in music where
I really should know better...)
> How do you figure it all out?
> Hard to say, unless you have access to a decent library.
I'd sample the better known conductors (etc.) fairly methodically.
This helps a lot, since performers generally retain a given set of style
features whatever they do (though not always - so it isn't foolproof).
Libraries are one source, and some CD stores allow listening.
Lena
Ramon Khalona
> 25 Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw
Add Klemperer/Phlharmonia here; a big band performance, with a fiery
beginning that belies Klemperer's characterization of a "slow"
conductor.
> 29 Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Fey, Klemperer/Testament
Add Fricsay/VSO; a romantic reading, not for the HIP crowd, but very
beautiful.
> 32 Maag/Decca (in a class by himself, I think)
Without a doubt, I love the beautifully raspy LSO horns. A must-have,
especially with the nice couplings on the Decca Legends disc.
> 34 Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Gardiner, Klemperer
This is one of my favorite Mozart symphonies, along with the Prague
and Jupiter.
My current favorite is Schuricht/Dresden Phil. on Berlin Classics,
more incisive and dynamic than Szell, if you can believe it. He could
have gone for
a little more schmaltz in the slow movement (Maag on Arts is
incomparable), but overall this is my top choice. Can you say
anything about Bruggen's (which I haven't heard).
> 35 Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw
Fricsay/RIAS (DG Japan, mono); an incandescent reading that is the
best anti-depressant I know.
> 36 Brueggen (by a safe margin my favorite; no-one matches his verve in
> iv, for instance), Klemperer, Schuricht
Two words: Bruno Walter.
> 38 Maag/Decca (Japan only, I think, but worth the effort),
No one even comes close, but are you sure it's been issued in Japan?
I have it on a Belart CD, coupled with 39 with Mehta/IPO, four of
those tracks that will never be played in my collection after having
dreadful memories of the LP.
> 39 Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Gardiner, Klemperer/Testament,
> Furtwaengler
Maag/Arts, especially for the idiosyncratic use of luftpause in the
last movement (not for purists)
> 40 Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Brueggen II (with the combined OAE and
> Orch 18th C), Furtwaengler
Papa Kleiber/LPO for a lean and mean reading; Walter for a big band,
spacious reading, and Kubelik/BRSO live on Orfeo for a grand reading
with all the repeats.
> 41 I've yet to find a recording of this that I really like, partly
> because most performances of i are so slow (there are numerous first
> rate finales, such as Casals, Szell and Brueggen). Rare exceptions
> include Coates and Clemens Kraus, but you may not be able to find them,
> and anyway they're mono, which you also may not want (so are the
> Klemperer/Testament performances, but they're well recorded and the
> performances are so good it doesn't matter). But even if too slow,
> Casals, Vegh (both recordings) and Klemperer/Testament (actually
> surprisingly fast for him, at least) probably won't bore you.
You must then hear Fricsay/RIAS (DG Japan, mono); the most incisive
reading I know. I am also quite fond of Kubelik/BRSO live (with 40
above), again with all repeats and with a great sense of occasion,
although perhaps not as fast as you would like in the first movement.
Ramon Khalona
Ray Hall
message news:3d0a1712...@enews.newsguy.com...
Strange. I wonder what the difference could be. Maybe one set is remastered
maybe? As W.D. Kasimer pointed out later in this thread (he said he paid $8
per CD), I could have had them years ago for the equivalent of $4 per CD and
no shipping. Off the shelf. Silvery grey front covers.
They will come around again, in some other incarnation no doubt - crossing
fingers. I see them as a good foil for Walter's stereo (35-41).
Regards,
# RMCR Contributor Links/Main Page :
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
< NEW Doris Day TV series news >
Ray, Sydney
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| The best way is probably to try European (German) sources as
| www.jpc.de oder adorishop.de. I do not know about the
| shipping cost to the antipodes, though. If they are
| available at all, they should be very cheap (not more than
| 5-7 Euros/disk)
Thanks. I'll have a look at JPC, and see what else they have too, in order
to make up for the shipping. Maybe they have Brilliant Classics too.
Simon Roberts
"Ramon Khalona" <rkha...@adnc.com> wrote in message
news:a1cac283.02061...@posting.google.com...
> "Simon Roberts" <sd...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote
> > 34 Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Gardiner, Klemperer
>
> This is one of my favorite Mozart symphonies, along with the Prague
> and Jupiter.
> My current favorite is Schuricht/Dresden Phil. on Berlin Classics,
> more incisive and dynamic than Szell, if you can believe it. He could
> have gone for
> a little more schmaltz in the slow movement (Maag on Arts is
> incomparable), but overall this is my top choice. Can you say
> anything about Bruggen's (which I haven't heard).
Yes, Maag too (and I agree re Klemperer in 25). I've not heard
Brueggen's in a while, but my memory suggests I was slightly
disappointed by it - at least in comparison with his wonderful remake of
40 that accompanies it; not quite as taut and precise as I want in i
(maybe partly because of the large orchestra involved?). This is a rare
instance where I prefer Gardiner. I didn't know Schuricht's existed....
> > 38 Maag/Decca (Japan only, I think, but worth the effort),
>
> No one even comes close, but are you sure it's been issued in Japan?
Yes.
> > 40 Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Brueggen II (with the combined OAE and
> > Orch 18th C), Furtwaengler
>
> Papa Kleiber/LPO for a lean and mean reading
Yes, that too - the highlight (for me, anyway) of the great conductors
twofer devoted to him.
Simon
W. J. McCutcheon
> A beginning collector, I like Mozart very much (especially the piano
> concerti) but own only one disc with his symphonies so far. I need to
> get more. The Gardiner/English Baroque Soloists disc with symphonies
> 40&41 on Philips (and period instruments) is one of my favorite discs.
> I plan to get the Gardiner on Philips with symphonies 38&39 as well.
>
> Wanting to get more Mozart symphonies my questions are: 1) which
> "range" of symphonies are considered the best, i.e., the best ones to
> begin collecting? 2) What are some recommended recordings (I do like
> period instruments but would like some with modern instruments as
> well)?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> --
> Stefan A.
Marriner/ASMF is not a bad place to start your enjoyment of Mozart's
symphonies. It's modern instruments but HIP-influenced in regard to
orchestral size and balance, tempi, etc. He's recorded them all as part of
the Philips Complete Mozart Edition. Vol. 1 is the Early Symphonies (#1-20,
42-52); Vol. 2 is #21-41. Each set comprises 6 discs. [If the numbering
confuses you, it's because they gained their traditional numbering (#1-41)
before later scholarship revealed that #2, #3, and #37 weren't his, and
that several youthful works were omitted. These latter are somewhat
arbitrarily now called #42-52.]
If you're going to get more Gardiner, look for the 5-disc set called "The
Great Symphonies;" it contains #29, 31-36, 38-41. I wish they'd included
#25. It may be OOP and hard to find, though.
-- Bill McCutcheon
Martha & Russ Oppenheim
"Matthew B. Tepper" wrote:
>
> Paul Kintzele <kint...@english.upenn.edu> wrote in news:3D0997E3.E2665858
> @english.upenn.edu:
>
> > 40/41: Levine/Chicago/RCA. You already have period instrument
> > versions of these works, so this dynamic, red-blooded modern orchestra
> > version would be a nice alternative approach.
>
> Yes, but has there ever been a CD edition which retains all the repeats,
> included on the original surprisingly-long LP?
>
I don't think so, and in fact I heaved a sigh of relief when I learned
that the CD edition eliminated Levine's repeats in the slow movements.
Since then I doctored up a version that eliminates the development/recap
repeat in 40/iv and all the repeats in 41/i and 41/iv. Ah, the joys of
Cool Edit.
JJ
news:a1cac283.02061...@posting.google.com:
> "Simon Roberts" <sd...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote
>
>> 25 Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw
>
> Add Klemperer/Phlharmonia here; a big band performance, with a fiery
> beginning that belies Klemperer's characterization of a "slow"
> conductor.
Agreed!
>> 29 Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Fey, Klemperer/Testament
>
> Add Fricsay/VSO; a romantic reading, not for the HIP crowd, but very
> beautiful.
I find the Fricsay very limp. In fact, much as I love him, his Mozart
(symphonies, requiem) has always disappointed me, except for the operas.
Harnoncourt is revelatory here, and would be my first choice. Also like
Klemperer.
>> 35 Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw
>
> Fricsay/RIAS (DG Japan, mono); an incandescent reading that is the
> best anti-depressant I know.
I'd be interested to hear that. My favorite is Brueggen. He has a
wonderfully powerful and weighty 1st movement.
Bernstein/VPO is thrilling here, too.
>> 36 Brueggen (by a safe margin my favorite; no-one matches his verve in
>> iv, for instance), Klemperer, Schuricht
>
> Two words: Bruno Walter.
My favorite is Bernstein/VPO, the 2nd recording on DG
>> 38 Maag/Decca (Japan only, I think, but worth the effort),
>
> No one even comes close, but are you sure it's been issued in Japan?
> I have it on a Belart CD, coupled with 39 with Mehta/IPO, four of
> those tracks that will never be played in my collection after having
> dreadful memories of the LP.
I'd add Klemperer, Bernstein.
>> 39 Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Gardiner, Klemperer/Testament,
>> Furtwaengler
>
> Maag/Arts, especially for the idiosyncratic use of luftpause in the
> last movement (not for purists)
Harnoncourt and Klemperer (both, but I'd go with the EMI if I had to
choose). Szell.
>> 40 Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Brueggen II (with the combined OAE and
>> Orch 18th C), Furtwaengler
>
> Papa Kleiber/LPO for a lean and mean reading; Walter for a big band,
> spacious reading, and Kubelik/BRSO live on Orfeo for a grand reading
> with all the repeats.
I like that Kubelik, too. Harnoncourt, Boehm/VPO, and Klemperer (sounds
like a refrain!).
>> 41 I've yet to find a recording of this that I really like, partly
>> because most performances of i are so slow (there are numerous first
>> rate finales, such as Casals, Szell and Brueggen). Rare exceptions
>> include Coates and Clemens Kraus, but you may not be able to find them,
>> and anyway they're mono, which you also may not want (so are the
>> Klemperer/Testament performances, but they're well recorded and the
>> performances are so good it doesn't matter). But even if too slow,
>> Casals, Vegh (both recordings) and Klemperer/Testament (actually
>> surprisingly fast for him, at least) probably won't bore you.
>
> You must then hear Fricsay/RIAS (DG Japan, mono); the most incisive
> reading I know. I am also quite fond of Kubelik/BRSO live (with 40
> above), again with all repeats and with a great sense of occasion,
> although perhaps not as fast as you would like in the first movement.
Klemperer (EMI)!
Jon
> Ramon Khalona
>
Bill Hunt
> "Stefan A." <stef...@fastmail.fm> wrote
> > A beginning collector, I like Mozart very much (especially the piano
> > concerti) but own only one disc with his symphonies so far. I need to
> > get more. The Gardiner/English Baroque Soloists disc with symphonies
> > 40&41 on Philips (and period instruments) is one of my favorite discs.
> > I plan to get the Gardiner on Philips with symphonies 38&39 as well.
>
> Good disc - but avoid his 32/35/36 which is quite dull, lacking the
> tension and drive the music needs.
Gardiner is also good for 29,31,33,34, 36 and 38. The HIP sound is
especially attractive in 38.
>
> >
> > Wanting to get more Mozart symphonies my questions are: 1) which
> > "range" of symphonies are considered the best, i.e., the best ones to
> > begin collecting?
>
> 25, 29, 31-41, with special emphasis (well, for me, anyway) on 25, 36,
> 38-41.
I would add # 28 to the list.
Mackerras/Prague Chamber Orchestra on Telarc is a great way to get
25,28 and 29 on one CD. My favorite for all 3. His performance of 38
is also my favorite with a very good 36 on the same CD.
Szell is very good for 33-41. Most are in a Sony 3-CD set (with a
very good #28 and Posthorn Serenade K. 320.) # 34 is available on a
MHS 2CD set with a Beethoven 5th and a Sibelius #2.
I also like a 3 CD EMI set with Klemperer for 36-41.
Bill Hunt
David7Gable
>>preferences, starting off with the "wrong" performance can put you
>>off a piece of music for a long time.
>
The absolute newbie cannot possibly know what his preferences are, cannot
possibly be hyper-attuned to the nuances that a Simon Roberts is. (Nor was he
at some point in his life.) And who is to make sure that the newbie doesn't
get the wrong performance in his hands? I'm deeply skeptical that we need to
worry that newbies will be driven away from classical music by bad
performances. The odds of them being turned off even to any single given piece
strikes me as almost equally unlikely. Maybe one piece once in a very rare
while by a truly wretched performance. By listening, the newbie will learn to
hear more and more, both in pieces and in performances of pieces. If he or she
is truly bitten by the bug, there'll be no stopping him or her.
-david gable
Simon Roberts
> >>Does any of this matter? I think so. Depending on the listener's
> >>preferences, starting off with the "wrong" performance can put you
> >>off a piece of music for a long time.
> >
>
> The absolute newbie cannot possibly know what his preferences are,
cannot
> possibly be hyper-attuned to the nuances that a Simon Roberts is.
(Nor was he
> at some point in his life.)
Of course not, nor did I say he was. But there are differences among
many performances that don't require "hyper-attuning" to detect. I was
near enough a complete novice to detest Boehm's Mozart Requiem when I
first bought it, which seemed to me to be stodgily conducted and badly
sung compared to the Fruehbeck de Burgos I had heard previously.
And who is to make sure that the newbie doesn't
> get the wrong performance in his hands?
No-one can do that for him because whether it's wrong for him depends on
his taste.
I'm deeply skeptical that we need to
> worry that newbies will be driven away from classical music by bad
> performances.
That's not what I said. I said that the wrong performance can drive you
away from a particular piece. I can't be the only person alive to have
been bored silly by vast tracts of baroque music (Vivaldi especially)
until the more interesting HIPsters came along; and I bet that if
Boehm's had been my introduction to Mozart's Requiem I would not have
been in any sort of hurry to encounter it again.
Simon
Lena
(laugh) I may have to shoot down this hypothesis... and I'm not even
sure that the premise as stated is correct! :)
FWIW, NB, BOMD: Beethoven is excellent (and there are several others I
wouldn't slight) but I'd be ravingly upset to find myself in one of
these horrible little desert island dictatorships (the ones which only
allow you 1-10 composers). Horrors.
If I have to be exiled, can't I be exiled to Paris, where they
presumably still let you listen to more than a single Bach WTC prelude
and fugue (and the shoe stores are good, too)...?
Lena
horizon
> concerti) but own only one disc with his symphonies so far. I need to
> get more. The Gardiner/English Baroque Soloists disc with symphonies
> 40&41 on Philips (and period instruments) is one of my favorite discs.
> I plan to get the Gardiner on Philips with symphonies 38&39 as well.
>
> "range" of symphonies are considered the best, i.e., the best ones to
> period instruments but would like some with modern instruments as
> well)?
In my opinion, skip the HIP recordings for the big works, and get
performances from Walter/CBS, Krips/RCOA and Klemperer/PO.
Matt C
Margaret Mikulska
(modern, but HIP influenced).
If you don't want a complete set yet, start with the last 5-6
symphonies: they are the most mature and closest to the symphony as we
think of it now (that is, a major orchestral work), as opposed to the
earlier symphonies, which were lighter fare, basically a racket to open
a close a concert.
You already have K 551 (Jupiter) and K 550 (g minor); by all means get,
as you plan, K 543 and K 504 (Prague). Also K 425 (Linz) and K 385
(Haffner) - the last one really sparkling.
Of the earlier, K 338 is underrated. Even earlier, try K 201 (A major,
rather well known), K 183 (g minor), and K 184 (E flat major).
And if you like symphonies, get some *orchestral* serenades (K 204, 205,
250 [also "Haffner"] and a few others). The line between such serenades
and symphonies is blurred - quite often, four movements out of a
multi-movement (up to 8-10 mvmts.) serenade were taken out and presented
as a symphony. For that matter, what we know as the Haffner *Symphony*
K 385 had originally 5 movements (a 2nd minuet is lost or unidentified)
and was first performed as an orchestral serenade.
-Margaret
"Stefan A." wrote:
>
> A beginning collector, I like Mozart very much (especially the piano
> concerti) but own only one disc with his symphonies so far. I need to
> get more. The Gardiner/English Baroque Soloists disc with symphonies
> 40&41 on Philips (and period instruments) is one of my favorite discs.
> I plan to get the Gardiner on Philips with symphonies 38&39 as well.
>
> Wanting to get more Mozart symphonies my questions are: 1) which
> "range" of symphonies are considered the best, i.e., the best ones to
> begin collecting? 2) What are some recommended recordings (I do like
> period instruments but would like some with modern instruments as
> well)?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> --
> Stefan A.
--
mikulska at silvertone dot princeton dot edu
Margaret Mikulska
traversal on modern instruments. I still prefer Pinnock, but if I see
the Telarc set at a reasonable price, I'll buy it.
I'm not fond of Marriner's set - there is uniformity to it that is not a
good thing in performance. There may be no weak link there, but that's
like saying that there is no ugly spot on an otherwise drab dress.
-Margaret
Thomas Muething wrote:
[...]
> Among complete sets on modern instruments, I think Marriner and the
> Academy-of-St-Martin-in-the-Fields is still a strong recommendation.
> There is no weak link among them, and the later symphonies are very,
> very well done. My own personal favorite is Charles Mackerras/Prague
> Chamber Orchestra on Telarc, but I don't think many people around here
> will agree with me.
>
> Thomas
Margaret Mikulska
> That's not what I said. I said that the wrong performance can drive you
> away from a particular piece. I can't be the only person alive to have
> been bored silly by vast tracts of baroque music (Vivaldi especially)
> until the more interesting HIPsters came along; and I bet that if
> Boehm's had been my introduction to Mozart's Requiem I would not have
> been in any sort of hurry to encounter it again.
It certainly can. I couldn't fathom what people heard in Schubert
Masses - or even how they could tell them apart - as long as I had only
Sawallisch's lifeless, stodgy, dreary performances. And they come with
Fi-Di, whom I adore. Then I listened to Bruno Weil and they - just the
first four (did he record the other two?) - turned out to be amazing
masterpieces.
BTW, is there a HIP recording of the Deutsche Messe ? Of shorter church
works ?
-Margaret
Ray Hall
news:3D0EBA94...@europe.com...
| Fi-Di, whom I adore. Then I listened to Bruno Weil and they - just the
| first four (did he record the other two?) - turned out to be amazing
| masterpieces.
The Weil Schopfungsmesse and the Harmoniemesse has already been released. A
definite purchase for me, as like yourself, I have greatly enjoyed the Weil
Paukenmesse, Theresienmesse, Nelsonmesse and Heiligemesse. Available in
Europe for sure. I have already ordered it from a store in Sydney, and am
presently waiting for it.
Marc Perman
> Mackerras's set on Telarc is a particularly elegant and tasteful
> traversal on modern instruments. I still prefer Pinnock, but if
I see
> the Telarc set at a reasonable price, I'll buy it.
Mackerras's set is quite cheap in Holland, e.g.
www.kuijperklassiek.nl. I don't care for the reverberant sound on
this set.
> I'm not fond of Marriner's set - there is uniformity to it that
is not a
> good thing in performance. There may be no weak link there, but
that's
> like saying that there is no ugly spot on an otherwise drab
dress.
Marriner's Philips recordings of the early symphonies aren't
drab - I haven't heard his EMI Mozart.
Marc Perman
Andante teneramente
---snip----
> It certainly can. I couldn't fathom what people heard in Schubert
> Masses - or even how they could tell them apart - as long as I had only
> Sawallisch's lifeless, stodgy, dreary performances. And they come with
> Fi-Di, whom I adore. Then I listened to Bruno Weil and they - just the
> first four (did he record the other two?) - turned out to be amazing
> masterpieces.
>
> BTW, is there a HIP recording of the Deutsche Messe ? Of shorter church
> works ?
There is a CD by Weil with the Mass in A flat D. 678 (2nd version)
and the German Mass D. 872 (version for mixed chorus, wind instruments,
kettledrums, double bass and organ) at Sony.
And there's a CD with the E flat Mass D 950 too.
Err - or *another* HIP version?
Cheers!
Simon Roberts
>"Margaret Mikulska" <miku...@europe.com> wrote in message
>news:3D0EBA94...@europe.com...
>
>| Fi-Di, whom I adore. Then I listened to Bruno Weil and they - just the
>| first four (did he record the other two?) - turned out to be amazing
>| masterpieces.
>
>The Weil Schopfungsmesse and the Harmoniemesse has already been released. A
>definite purchase for me, as like yourself, I have greatly enjoyed the Weil
>Paukenmesse, Theresienmesse, Nelsonmesse and Heiligemesse. Available in
>Europe for sure. I have already ordered it from a store in Sydney, and am
>presently waiting for it.
But those are Haydn.... The answer to Margaret's question is "yes."
Simon
Larry Eckerling
mper...@nyc.rr.com wrote on 6/18/02 6:01 AM:
The Marriner recordings have a clarity and sparkle, particularly in the
second violins and violas when they play sixteenth note accompaniments which
set up an inner-energy that in my opinion is unsurpassed. And for a larger
orchestra, the closest clarity you find (I find) is with George Szell and
Cleveland.
Larry Eckerling
Matthew Silverstein
> 38 Maag/Decca (Japan only, I think, but worth the effort),
> Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw, Brueggen, Gardiner, Maag/Arts,
> Klemperer/Testament, Kubelik/Denon, Vegh
Which of these is fastest in the first movement? I like Pinnock's quick
tempo, but I'd love to hear someone combine that tempo with Bruggen or
Harnoncourt's more distinctive phrasing.
Matty
Simon Roberts
wrote:
Me too. Of that lot, Kubelik is probably the fastest. Mackerras is
certainly fast (but that's about all it is), as are a few older
performances. If I remember I'll check when I get home.
Simon
Johannes Röhl
Where does the Denon recording stem from?
I have an Orfeo disc with Kubelik (KV 504, 183 and Haydn 99)
and was not terribly impressed; the little g minor is
underpowered and the rest was not much more than o.k. (maybe
I should give it another listen... the Prague was probably
still better than the Haydn)
And what are the differences between the almost unavailable
Maag and the one on Arts with the Italian Band?
Johannes
Simon Roberts
<johanne...@physik.uni-giessen.de> wrote:
>Simon Roberts schrieb:
>>
>> Me too. Of that lot, Kubelik is probably the fastest. Mackerras is
>> certainly fast (but that's about all it is), as are a few older
>> performances. If I remember I'll check when I get home.
>
>Where does the Denon recording stem from?
A live performance in Prague.
>I have an Orfeo disc with Kubelik (KV 504, 183 and Haydn 99)
>and was not terribly impressed; the little g minor is
>underpowered and the rest was not much more than o.k. (maybe
>I should give it another listen... the Prague was probably
>still better than the Haydn)
I've not heard that disc. I'm not much of a Kubelik fan (except for some
of his Mahler and Dvorak) and was pleasantly surprised by the Denon 38.
>And what are the differences between the almost unavailable
>Maag and the one on Arts with the Italian Band?
>
They're very different - the remake is slower, the orchestral sound is
fatter/richer, with more prominent horns, and, perhaps most striking, his
violins do Harnoncourt-esque legato in the first movement in places where
no-one else does anything remotely similar. I like both, but prefer the
rather leaner, tauter earlier recording.
Simon
Johannes Röhl
>
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:46:20 +0200, Johannes Röhl
> <johanne...@physik.uni-giessen.de> wrote:
> >Simon Roberts schrieb:
> >>
> >> Me too. Of that lot, Kubelik is probably the fastest. Mackerras is
> >> certainly fast (but that's about all it is), as are a few older
> >> performances. If I remember I'll check when I get home.
> >
> >Where does the Denon recording stem from?
>
> A live performance in Prague.
>
> >I have an Orfeo disc with Kubelik (KV 504, 183 and Haydn 99)
> >and was not terribly impressed; the little g minor is
> >underpowered and the rest was not much more than o.k. (maybe
> >I should give it another listen... the Prague was probably
> >still better than the Haydn)
>
> I've not heard that disc. I'm not much of a Kubelik fan (except for some
> of his Mahler and Dvorak) and was pleasantly surprised by the Denon 38.
I picked it up on ebay. Ramon Khalona probably raved about
it, so I thought it might be a good alternative to HIP and
HIP-influenced performances, but so far I was not impressed,
they are live as well, BTW, with the Bavarian Radio.
> >And what are the differences between the almost unavailable
> >Maag and the one on Arts with the Italian Band?
> They're very different - the remake is slower, the orchestral sound is
> fatter/richer, with more prominent horns, and, perhaps most striking, his
> violins do Harnoncourt-esque legato in the first movement in places where
> no-one else does anything remotely similar. I like both, but prefer the
> rather leaner, tauter earlier recording.
I will keep searching for it; I have 35-38 of the recordings
on Arts and quite like them. (Although I think the mannered
phrasing in 39,iv gets silly very soon and the menuets in
the Haffner and Linz need more drive to make them
interesting; I think in the menuets it shows that these were
composed in a hurry; almost any Haydn symphonic menuet is
better than those two)
Do you by any chance know Gielens #39 on Arte Nova; it has
the fastest Intro and i) I know, so it is almost as
agressive as Harnoncourt, but I think I prefer the latter
for variety in tone color, phrasing etc.
Johannes
Simon Roberts
<johanne...@physik.uni-giessen.de> wrote:
>
>I will keep searching for it; I have 35-38 of the recordings
>on Arts and quite like them. (Although I think the mannered
>phrasing in 39,iv gets silly very soon and the menuets in
>the Haffner and Linz need more drive to make them
>interesting; I think in the menuets it shows that these were
>composed in a hurry; almost any Haydn symphonic menuet is
>better than those two)
Agree
>Do you by any chance know Gielens #39 on Arte Nova; it has
>the fastest Intro and i) I know, so it is almost as
>agressive as Harnoncourt, but I think I prefer the latter
>for variety in tone color, phrasing etc.
>
I only know it if it's the same performance that was released by
Intercord. Either way, I would expect it to be tonally gentler than
Harnoncourt; Gielen's not much of a colourist (or, if you prefer, he
works with a gentler pallette).
Simon
Ray Hall
news:slrn3vsagu7...@pobox.upenn.edu...
Such a long thread, I thought we had already switched to Haydn ....
Oh well, the Weil Haydn masses are very good anyway.
Jeremy Dimmick
> It certainly can. I couldn't fathom what people heard in Schubert
> Masses - or even how they could tell them apart - as long as I had only
> Sawallisch's lifeless, stodgy, dreary performances.
Ditto - and they're the only ones I've ever heard, so I'd written those
pieces off until *this very minute*. Thank you.
JD
Margaret Mikulska
> > traversal on modern instruments. I still prefer Pinnock, but if
> I see
> > the Telarc set at a reasonable price, I'll buy it.
>
> Mackerras's set is quite cheap in Holland, e.g.
> www.kuijperklassiek.nl. I don't care for the reverberant sound on
> this set.
Thanks; I meant to order this or that from them, so I may as well add
this. Funny, I haven't seen any Telarc CDs at Kuijper's. Mostly
Philips, understandably.
> > I'm not fond of Marriner's set - there is uniformity to it that
> is not a
> > good thing in performance. There may be no weak link there, but
> that's
> > like saying that there is no ugly spot on an otherwise drab
> dress.
>
> Marriner's Philips recordings of the early symphonies aren't
> drab - I haven't heard his EMI Mozart.
"Drab" was maybe an exaggeration, but this uniformity makes it, well,
less-than-exciting. For me at least.
-Margaret
Margaret Mikulska
Larry Eckerling wrote:
> The Marriner recordings have a clarity and sparkle, particularly in the
> second violins and violas when they play sixteenth note accompaniments which
> set up an inner-energy that in my opinion is unsurpassed.
This is something I would say about Pinnock's performances, but not
Marriner's. For me, nobody has as much sparkle in M's symphonies as
Pinnock.
-Margaret
Margaret Mikulska
have guessed that I wasn't asking about Haydn?
-Margaret
--
Margaret Mikulska
> > works ?
>
> There is a CD by Weil with the Mass in A flat D. 678 (2nd version)
> and the German Mass D. 872 (version for mixed chorus, wind instruments,
> kettledrums, double bass and organ) at Sony.
> And there's a CD with the E flat Mass D 950 too.
> Err - or *another* HIP version?
No, that's what I wanted to know: The two late Latin masses specifically
by Weil, but the Deutsche Messe in any HIP incarnation. I just have the
first four with Weil. Thanks a lot.
Ray Hall
| Thanks, Simon. With Schubert and Mozart in the subject line, who would
| have guessed that I wasn't asking about Haydn?
Obviously not me <g> With the thread this long already however, the
probability of being remotely close to the subject line diminishes rapidly.
Haydn wasn't too far away, anyway - really quite amazingly close to the
original subject ....
Jan Depondt
| Marc Perman wrote:
| >
| > Mackerras's set is quite cheap in Holland, e.g.
| > www.kuijperklassiek.nl. I don't care for the reverberant sound on
| > this set.
|
| Thanks; I meant to order this or that from them, so I may as well add
| this. Funny, I haven't seen any Telarc CDs at Kuijper's. Mostly
| Philips, understandably.
You can find it at:
http://www.kuijperklassiek.nl/klassiekezaken/cd007.html
which is "under" Aanbiedingen Klassieke Zaken (13 CD's)
which is "under' Offers (Aanbiedingen).
--
Jan Depondt
____________________________
Classical Budget cd's in Holland
http://home.wanadoo.nl/jdpt/
mail: jdptATwanadoo.nl
Michael Smith
Brilliant Classics symphony cycle conducted by Jaap ter Linden - they
will be, if nothing else, cheap.
Michael
Jeffrey Smith
Smith) wrote:
I am waiting for my set to arrive. There is a problem with the
distributor in the UK and the official release date and the actual
supply are in no way connected. I have given Crotchet several
headaches so far. However, I will report back when it does arrive. In
the meantime I would like to confirm that it is the price to which you
are referring as 'cheap' and not the performances.
Jeffrey Smith.
To reply by email, remove the four XXXX characters.
Mark K. Ehlert
news:b1aa7916.02062...@posting.google.com:
> I'd be interested to know whether anyone has heard any of the
> new Brilliant Classics symphony cycle conducted by Jaap ter
> Linden - they will be, if nothing else, cheap.
Do you happen to have the name of the ensemble he's leading handy?
--
Mark K. Ehlert
To reply via e-mail, X = 3
Michael Smith
>
> > I'd be interested to know whether anyone has heard any of the
> > new Brilliant Classics symphony cycle conducted by Jaap ter
> > Linden - they will be, if nothing else, cheap.
>
> Do you happen to have the name of the ensemble he's leading handy?
Yes, it's the Mozart Akademie Amsterdam - a new group, I presume
ad-hoc. There are fairly comprehensive details at:
http://www.joanrecords.com/classical/brilliant/item/99730.html
Michael
Mark K. Ehlert
> "Mark K. Ehlert" <ludwig...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Thanks for the tip, Michael. I see that ter Linden is a MAK veteran
- sounds like some interesting possibilities are afoot.