OT: "Why Does John Eliot Gardiner Have To Be So Rude?"

[abras...@gmail.com]

"Sir John Eliot Gardiner is talented almost beyond measure. His Monteverdi Choir, English Baroque Soloists and stupidly named Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique have notched up one triumph after another over the decades: benchmark recordings of the Monteverdi Vespers and Bach B minor Mass, the finest period-instrument Beethoven symphony cycle and a cantata pilgrimage of live performances of all the Bach sacred cantatas. His recordings of Mozart operas are dazzling. At 72, Gardiner is at his artistic peak. His live re-recordings of the Beethoven Fifth, Seventh and Missa Solemnis eclipse their predecessors and in its second account of the Bach motets the Monteverdi Choir sings with such eerie precision, infused with the spirit of dance, that its rivals must despair.

"Add to that Gardiner's glorious book Music in the Castle of Heaven (2013), in which he draws on his other career as a gentleman farmer to illuminate Bach's relationship with the agricultural year, and you have to wonder: is there anything this man can't do?

"The answer is yes. One art eludes him: good manners. Not consistently -- 'Jiggy', as he doesn't like to be known, is scrupulously respectful to his friend the Prince of Wales. But musicians tell a different story, of tantrums and haughty self-regard. Anecdotes about him circulated privately until Stephen Walsh, praising Gardiner's book in The Spectator, referred to his 'notorious rudeness to performers and colleagues'. Peter Phillips, director of the Tallis Scholars, quoted this in his column, adding that Jiggy 'recently lost his temper with a brass player in the London Symphony Orchestra' (which was putting it mildly, apparently)."

The rest here:
http://tinyurl.com/p25qgkg

[Terry]

In the full article, we are invited to Google "John Eliot Gardiner" linked to "rudeness". I did, and didn't come up with much. Maybe JEG has upset the Spectator and they're getting back at him. Sounds like he can be a bit tetchy, though.

[Oscar]

On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 6:53:27 PM, Terry wrote:
>
> In the full article, we are invited to Google "John Eliot Gardiner" linked to "rudeness". I did, and
> didn't come up with much. Maybe JEG has upset the Spectator and they're getting back at him.
> Sounds like he can be a bit tetchy, though.

It has been long-known among musicians that Jeggy has a short temper. I wonder how much Scots is in his blood??

[graham]

How the hell would that make any difference?
Graham

--

[abras...@gmail.com]

On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 6:53:27 PM UTC-7, Terry wrote

>
> In the full article, we are invited to Google "John Eliot Gardiner" linked to "rudeness". I did, and didn't come up with much. Maybe JEG has upset the Spectator and they're getting back at him. Sounds like he can be a bit tetchy, though.

Perhaps Gardiner plans to vote Labour.

[howie...@btinternet.com]

His difficult personality is welll known. I know one person who refuses to work with him. But the idea that he sucks up to the Prince of Wales is new to me.

[Mike]

That Spectator article is pathetic even by gossip rag standards.

[Herman]

Looks like Peter Phillips wanted to put it on the record that he's a nicer person than JEG. Him writing this piece sure doesn't help.

Love the comments that come out of the woodwork. Some guy went to a concert in Italy and to a ristorante afterwards, where it took a long time before dinner was served. Somehow, because JEG was eating in the same place, it was JEG's fault the kitchen was slow.

[O]

In article <88e4fb36-c1d6-44ab...@googlegroups.com>,

JEG must have gotten served before he did. It's one thing to hear a
lousy performance, but quite another to have to wait a long time for
your chicken pot pie.

-Owen, Chicken Pot Pie, and I don't care!

[Andrew Clarke]

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 4:55:05 PM UTC+10, Mike wrote:
> That Spectator article is pathetic even by gossip rag standards.

"The Heckler" is a new column in The Spectator where journalists can let their hair down and express unconventional and/or unpopular views. It is, as the title suggests, not meant to be taken too seriously. Damian Thompson is normally a contributor well worth reading.

I remember reading the original Spectator piece by Peter "Tallis" Phillips, and the incident raised was a verbal attack by JEG on a horn player during rehearsal, which all concerned felt was uncalled for. Orchestral musicians are no strangers to emotional outbursts from the podium, so the it would appear that JEG's behaviour has been excessive and unacceptable.

Another anecdote which I have from someone who was present, involved a bassoonist who was going to be unavoidably late for one rehearsal, and had observed the usual courtesies by writing to Sir John with his apologies. Came the rehearsal, the bassoonist arrived to be greeted by a torrent of abuse followed by dismissal. The entire orchestra then informed JEG that they would not play the concert unless the bassoonist was reinstated and an apology given. These stipulations were met, and the concert given.

It may or may be not relevant that JEG enjoys a considerable private income and is not dependent on his fees.

The Spectator, incidentally, is now also published in Australia with additional Australian content, frequently as well-written, if not better-written than the British stuff. As most other Australian media of national status reflect the views of the Latte Left, this fills an important gap.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[ljk...@aol.com]

I thought William Christie was the one on the HIP front who has a reputation for serial rudeness, verbal abuse, etc.

Larry Kart

[HT]

Op dinsdag 5 mei 2015 16:06:34 UTC+2 schreef ljk...@aol.com:

> I thought William Christie was the one on the HIP front who has a reputation for serial rudeness, verbal abuse, etc.
>
> Larry Kart

So it's not just Gardiner. Why do conductors believe that they needn't behave themselves unless in the company of the high and mighty?

Henk

[Herman]

no brainer

[Frank Berger]

As the ultimate skeptic about just about everything, it would need to be
proved to me that conductors in general are any more abusive of their
musicians that any other bosses are of their subordinates. Believe me,
I've seen some abusive bosses.

[HT]

> As the ultimate skeptic about just about everything, it would need to be
> proved to me that conductors in general are any more abusive of their
> musicians that any other bosses are of their subordinates. Believe me,
> I've seen some abusive bosses.

Isn't there a difference? I cannot imagine that the management of the RCO would allow a conductor to abuse their musicians. Or are good and decent conductors in such short supply?

Henk

[Frank Berger]

Employers often give leeway to very productive people. Think "stars."

[GMS]

I've worked with Gardiner at the Chicago Symphony only once. I found him to be gentlemanly and enjoyable.

[Dana John Hill]

Ha! Samuel Johnson, is that you?

Dana John Hill
Gainesville, Florida

[Dana John Hill]

On 5/5/2015 11:57 AM, HT wrote:

I can't answer that. But Christopher Hogwood was exceedingly courteous
to me, both in person, and in correspondence.

[John Wiser]

"HT" <hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:5f653af7-5fa7-4145...@googlegroups.com...

Ridiculous and completely unfair generalization, Henk.
I dealt extensively as a lowly music-dealing functionary or interviewer
with Stokowski, Szell, Levine, Previn, Leinsdorf, Max Rudolf, Oliver Knussen,
Roger Norrington, Roy Goodman, Mikhail Spivakov, Frederick Fennell,
Neeme Järvi, and a host of perhaps less exalted others without ever
once encountering an occasion of arrogance or bad manners.

jdw

[eugenep...@gmail.com]

Seventy or eighty years ago, people talked constantly of Toscanini's bad temper too. Fortunately for us, NBC recorded virtually all of his rehearsals from 1946 to 1954, and there are many others prior to that. The real temper tantrums are pretty bad -- see Act III of Traviata in the dress rehearsal in 1946. On the other hand, the deeply felt and musicianly and intelligent ones are vastly more common. The rehearsal of the the little ballet movements from Beethoven's Prometheus from 1944 is a showcase of every type of thing all of us connect with excellence in musicianship, with depth in interpretation and expression. .....and the playing in that rehearsal, God! I haven't heard Gardiner rehearse, and I too have heard stories of nastiness, but given the superb quality of the results, perhaps it is a shame that more people are not similarly nasty.

[HT]

> I haven't heard Gardiner rehearse, and I too have heard stories of nastiness, but given the superb quality of the results, perhaps it is a shame that more people are not similarly nasty.

Hmmm. An argument based on the assumption that the goal justifies the means. It would imply that Gardiner's "superb results" are based on his rudeness, not ons his musical talents. <g>

Henk

[HT]

>> So it's not just Gardiner. Why do conductors believe that they needn't behave themselves unless in the company of the high and mighty?

> Ridiculous and completely unfair generalization, Henk.

You're probably right, John, in the sense that if "do conductors believe" were a generalization it would be a completely unfair and unintended one. I'm very well aware of the fact that for example the former conductor of the RCO, Mariss Jansons (sp?, was/is anything but rude.

Frank Berger gave an interesting answer. Bosses (again: not all bosses) may be abusive. Although conductors aren't bosses in the usual sense, the real bosses or employers (for example the management of an orchestra) may give leeway to stars - even at the expense of their (other) employees.

BTW, that Gardiner doesn't (want to) recognize people he worked with and is a very demanding client in a restaurant is completely irrelevant - in my humble opinion.

Henk

[HT]

Op dinsdag 5 mei 2015 19:42:23 UTC+2 schreef GMS:

> I've worked with Gardiner at the Chicago Symphony only once. I found him to be gentlemanly and enjoyable.

Good to hear! It may very well be that this is his "fundamental attainment" ... Let's hope so.

Henk

[Andrew Clarke]

On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 at 12:06:34 AM UTC+10, ljk...@aol.com wrote:
> I thought William Christie was the one on the HIP front who has a reputation for serial rudeness, verbal abuse, etc.
>
> Larry Kart

I haven't heard anything about Christie in this regard: he's certainly genial in interviews. But after watching him conduct baroque opera on video I'd suggest that there's no doubt who's in charge.

He does have the advantage of being able to serially insult people fluently in two languages. But anyone who was the mentor of Stéphanie d'Oustrac can't be all bad.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Andrew Clarke]

On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 at 6:26:05 AM UTC+10, HT wrote:

> BTW, that Gardiner doesn't (want to) recognize people he worked with and is a very demanding client in a restaurant is completely irrelevant - in my humble opinion.

I wonder if he has stomach problems or IBS and has to be very careful what he eats?

For JEG at his most affable see that semi-staged performance of "The Magic Flute" at the Concertgebouw, which to the discredit of the recording industry and/or the legal fraternity is still only available on VHS. It includes a particularly fine and emotionally draining rendition of "Ein Weibchen oder ein Maedchen" by Gerald Finlay, after which JEG walks down from the podium and shakes his hand.

For William Christie at his most hip (not HIP) see the final scene of "Les Indes galantes" where he joins the rest of the cast in walking like an Egyptian.

Incidentally, JEG's friendship with the Prince of Wales suggests to me that the latter is not the clueless dolt the media make him out to be,

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Frank Berger]

That's redundant.

[ljk...@aol.com]

This interview with Christie

http://www.theartsdesk.com/classical-music/interview-william-christie

contains the following:

He is enormously rude about some of his collaborators, but then tells me it's off the record, and should any of it appear in print, he will kill me. He certainly had a big falling out with the soprano Dawn Upshaw, who told me, "I guess it's like when you are at a party and you don't get on with everyone. At a party you can just move on and talk to someone else - it's more difficult when you are working with them."

and this:

As soprano Sophie Daneman told me, "He's very vocal and opinionated, which some singers can't handle. He will give people enormous chances, but if they don't take them . . ." Her voice trails off and the phrase "doesn't suffer fools gladly" hovers in the air.

Larry Kart

[Herman]

On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 at 4:14:10 AM UTC+2, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 at 6:26:05 AM UTC+10, HT wrote:
>
> > BTW, that Gardiner doesn't (want to) recognize people he worked with and is a very demanding client in a restaurant is completely irrelevant - in my humble opinion.
>
> I wonder if he has stomach problems or IBS and has to be very careful what he eats?
>

Isn't it wonderful how the totally vague and petty comment made about the Italian ristorante (dinner wasn't served for 45 minutes and then JEG and company entered and the wait continued) takes on a life of its own?

That's how gossip works.

I rest my case.

[Andrew Clarke]

Larry, I really do think there's a world of difference between rudeness to colleagues expressed off the record and violently berating individuals in rehearsal.

BTW the drummer and band leader Buddy Rich was famous for insulting his musicians. One of his tirades - in the band bus - was secretly recorded and has been circulated to just about every jazz musician on the planet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omID1prJHFo

The comments, largely in Rich's favour, are of interest.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Andrew Clarke]

Perhaps the man has ulcers? This would explain his short temper, although it wouldn't justify it.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Jim Paul]

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 7:14:10 PM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 at 6:26:05 AM UTC+10, HT wrote:
>

>
> For William Christie at his most hip (not HIP) see the final scene of "Les Indes galantes" where he joins the rest of the cast in walking like an Egyptian.
>

Not actually the final scene -- it's a impromptu encore at the end of the curtain calls. The whole production is great fun.

[Terry]

He used to be a competent 'cellist, and loves classical music. He was the patron of the Bach Cantatas Pilgrimage project Gardiner did in 2000.

[Mark Zimmer]

On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 9:21:34 PM UTC-5, Oscar wrote:
> On Monday, May 4, 2015 at 6:53:27 PM, Terry wrote:
> >
> > In the full article, we are invited to Google "John Eliot Gardiner" linked to "rudeness". I did, and
> > didn't come up with much. Maybe JEG has upset the Spectator and they're getting back at him.
> > Sounds like he can be a bit tetchy, though.
>
> It has been long-known among musicians that Jeggy has a short temper. I wonder how much Scots is in his blood??

Reading his Music in the Castle of Heaven one gets the sense he has completely lost patience with Christoph Wolff and desperately wants to get into a fistfight with him. Why is not entirely clear, but the entire book reads like a remarkably angry (but often funny) point by point dismissal of Wolff's Learned Musician. Breathe, John.

[Norman Schwartz]

Does he also serve as the Patron Saint of the Bernstein Royal Edition? ;-0

[ljk...@aol.com]

The Dawn Upshaw and Sophie Danneman quotes refer to public rudeness to musical colleagues on Christie's part, in rehearsal or afterwards it would seem. It is possible that Upshaw was being a recalcitrant nudnik when she did or didn't do whatever it was that led Christie to say to her whatever he said, but her track record as a talented, stylistically aware vocal artist is a pretty good one, no?

I'm quite familiar with the Rich tape. A galvanic drummer and bandleader but often a near-psychopath. For another revealing glimpse into Rich's dark side, check out the story his friend Mel Torme tells about Rich and Torme's gun collection in his book about Rich. Not that Mel himself wasn't something of a sick puppy, but good grief!

Larry Kart

[Andrew Clarke]

I agree re Upshaw: God knows what happened, but if Les Arts Florissants are one happy family as claimed then it can't happen all that frequently, at least I hope not.

Interesting that Christie is also interested in the avant-garde: I've often felt that the HIP movement is a way of making old works sound new rather than a way of making them sound even older.

What's the gossip re Mel Torme?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[ljk...@aol.com]

Don't recall whether Torme told the story in his biography of Rich "Traps: The Drum Wonder" or in his autobiography "It Wasn't All Velvet" (I think it was the latter), but Torme had one of the world's largest collection of antique guns. Rich came by the house one day and while gazing at Torme's collection asked Mel which piece was the most valuable. Torme pointed to an extremely rare pistol (IIRC, it had been owned by some famous Caribbean pirate), whereupon Buddy said, "If you care about our friendship, give it to me" -- that is, give to him as a gift.

As Torme explains in the book, the longtime relationship between Rich and Torme was one in which Rich often had tried to exert dominance over him (as Rich did over many of the people he ran across in life), and Torme typically had knuckled under. And that is what happened here; Mel reluctantly gave Buddy the most treasured gun in his collection. And, again, IIRC Torme felt sure that to exert dominance over him was Rich's goal, for Rich was not a gun collector and did not prize the antique pistol as the rare and handsome object it was.

Humiliated by what had taken place, Torme tried put it out of his mind, but a few months later he was reading a gun collectors magazine and saw a classified advertisement there for the very pistol he had given to Rich. Buddy was selling the damn thing, in part for the money it would bring but also as seems likely (it certainly seemed that way to Torme) to further humiliate his friend because he know that the news would get back to Mel, as it did, that what Rich had demanded from him as a sign of fondness/loyalty/what have you had now been tossed by Buddy onto the marketplace.

Larry Kart