Reiner box reactions

[Ed Presson]

I've listened to all 63 CDs in the the Sony box of Reiner's RCA recordings,
and I'm a bit surprised at some of my reactions. These notes are purely
subjective, but for what they're worth:

Desert Island list (more than I expected):

Debussy: Iberia
Bartok: Concerto for Orchestra; MUSPAC
Strauss: Also sprach Zarathustra; Salome and Elektra excerpts
Beethoven: Symphony No. 5
Weinberger: Polka & Fugue from Schwanda the Bagpiper
Albeniz: Iberia (selections); Navarra; Falla: Three-Cornered Hat Dances

Others I like a lot (but don't made the list above):

Beethoven: Symphonies 3,6,7
Prokofiev: Alexander Nevsky
Mussorgsky: Pictures
Rachmaninoff: Isle of the Dead

Others:

Mahler: Symphony No. 4 & Das Lied von der Erde I don't feel that Reiner
really "got" Mahler; but when Forrester sings Mahler(in the latter), my
critical faculties shut off

Dvorak: Symphony No. 9 A deeply felt performance, but a bit over-dramatic
for me

Haydn & Mozart symphonies: I get the feeling that Reiner believed that to
stress humor, charm, or grace would emasculate these works. I'll have to
listen again to see if convinces me. Not so far.

Works I wish Reiner had recorded (that were in his repertoire)

Hindemith: Symphony: Harmonie der Welt and several Sibelius symphonies that
High Fidelity magazine obituary said he did very well.

Ed Presson

[westover]

Thanks Ed, Listening to the Beethoven 5 right now. I have also listened to Mahler's 4th and agree with your assessment. (Reiner wrote the back cover notes himself and they definitely make for an interesting read. It is as if he felt he had to make a disclaimer for actually recording Mahler in 1959.)

- Mike

p.s. It doesn't surprise me that Reiner/CSO would do well at Sibelius .... too bad.

בתאריך יום ראשון, 20 באוקטובר 2013 03:26:55 UTC+3, מאת Ed Presson:

[Orchman]

On Saturday, October 19, 2013 8:26:55 PM UTC-4, Ed Presson wrote:>
> Hindemith: Symphony: Harmonie der Welt and several Sibelius symphonies >>

supposedly, Reiner was not very fond of Sibelius' music.
I wish he had recorded more Schoenberg, Berg and Webern. He apparently wasn't too crazy about atonal, 2nd Viennese School - but his Webern 6 Pieces are really excellent. He was great at dissecting complex scores, and bringing out the lines, as they passed from one instrument to another.

[William Sommerwerck]

You have, unfortunately, made a strong argument against buying the box, as
your favorite performances are many people's favorites, and likely to be part
of most listeners' collections.

[Dave Cook]

On 2013-10-20, Ed Presson <pe...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Strauss: Also sprach Zarathustra; Salome and Elektra excerpts

Does the box include both AsZ recordings? Which one is this?

Thanks,
Dave Cook

[westover]

The box does include both AsZ recordings.
-Mike


בתאריך יום ראשון, 20 באוקטובר 2013 19:14:36 UTC+3, מאת Dave Cook:

[westover]

בתאריך יום ראשון, 20 באוקטובר 2013 16:28:31 UTC+3, מאת William Sommerwerck:

> You have, unfortunately, made a strong argument against buying the box, as
>
> your favorite performances are many people's favorites, and likely to be part
>
> of most listeners' collections.

Certainly each perspective buyer will have to make a decision based on what he already owns, but one thing that strikes me as I go through the set is just how much quality stuff Reiner recorded from a wide ranging repertoire. And the list of what is newly remastered (available on the amazon page) is quite impressive, in my estimation, given the nature and price of the box.

-Mike

[William Sommerwerck]

"westover" wrote in message
news:b0ebfe25-c791-4a62...@googlegroups.com...

בתאריך יום ראשון, 20 באוקטובר 2013 16:28:31 UTC+3, מאת William Sommerwerck:

>> You have, unfortunately, made a strong argument against
>> buying the box, as your favorite performances are many

>> people's favorites, and likely to already be part of most

>> listeners' collections.

> Certainly each perspective buyer will have to make a decision
> based on what he already owns, but one thing that strikes me
> as I go through the set is just how much quality stuff Reiner
> recorded from a wide ranging repertoire. And the list of what
> is newly remastered (available on the amazon page) is quite
> impressive, in my estimation, given the nature and price of
> the box.

I'm being a little catty, as I'm strapped, and don't have the money to buy the
set.

Reiner is unquestionably one of the great 20th-century conductors. It remains
amazing how well he conducted such a wide variety of music.

[westover]

I know for myself, contentment isn't easy to come by with all that is being offered these days. I have decided to stick almost exclusively with Sony complete album box offerings (who I think do a magnificent job) but haven't even been able to keep up with these. Thankfully, though, they seem to print a lot more these days (a switch that started with the Rubinstein box). Not as good for long term investment, but much better when we need to sit on things (and I'm not looking to sell anyways). As far as I can determine amazon.ca and importcds.com have the best prices on Sony boxes for North American customers.

-Mike


בתאריך יום ראשון, 20 באוקטובר 2013 21:29:23 UTC+3, מאת William Sommerwerck:

[Gerard]

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message news:l40lq1$63q$1...@dont-email.me...

================

This seems to be typical for most big boxes.

[Ed Presson]

>"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message news:l40lq1$63q$1...@dont-email.me...

>You have, unfortunately, made a strong argument against buying the box, as
>your favorite performances are many people's favorites, and likely to be
>part of most listeners' collections.

That's true. However, there are a number of items that were never issued in
the USA in the Living Stereo updated sound series of releases, nor in the
SACD format. That, and to chance to gather together other performances that
I'd never heard (like the Beethoven Third) tipped the scales for me.

Ed Presson

[Mort]

Excluding the new Horowitz/Carnegie Hall box, I presume.

Mort Linder

[Ed Presson]

"Dave Cook" wrote in message
news:5264016c$0$47868$c3e8da3$5d8f...@news.astraweb.com...

Sorry, Dave. I meant to note that I prefer the 1954 recording. The box
includes both AsZs. The later one has warmer sound and a warmer, more
valedictory interpretation as you probably know. Don Vroon once
characterized the earlier performance as "imperious." In this case, I agree
with Mr. Vroon; I think the adjective apt. However, I like the performance
nonetheless.

Best wishes,

Ed Presson

[Oscar]

Re remasterings, as with Sony's Heifetz and Rubinstein big boxes, the producer has opted to use XRCD masters where applicable (12 total), as well as 1990's Living Stereo masters and mid-aughts Living Stereo SACD masters (the redbook layers mastered by John Newton's SoundMirror in Boston, obviously, which _are_ different than the 90's LS masters). In addition, there are 32 titles, or a third of the box, which are newly remastered in DSD.

XRCD masters can be identified where Hiromuchi Takiguchi is identified as mastering engineer.

• Beethoven Symphonies 6, 7, Fidelio Overture
• Brahms Piano Concerto 2 (Emil Gilels)
• Liszt Mephisto Waltz
• Mozart Divertimento, Eine Kleine Nachtmusik
• Prokofiev Lt.Kije
• Strauss (R) Also Sprach Zarathustra (1962)
• Stravinsky Song of the Nightingale
• Tchaikovsky Symphony 6, 1812 Overture

All but the Beethoven 6, Brahms and Mozart were previously issued as Living Stereo CDs. For this box, Sony (producer Robert Russ?) chose XRCD over Living Stereo.

Andreas K. Meyer and Jeanne Montalvo are the mastering engineers responsible for the new 24-bit DSD re-masterings.

• Bach: Piano Concerto 5 (Andre Tchaikovsky)
• Beethoven: Symphonies 1, 3, 9
• Berlioz: Les nuits d'été (Leontyne Price)
• Brahms Symphony 3, Tragic Overture **
• Debussy: Ibéria
• Haydn: Symphonies 88, 95, 101
• Mendelssohn Hebrides Overture
• Mozart: Symphonies 36, 39, 40, 41, Don Giovanni Overture, Piano Concerto 25 (Andre Tchaikovsky)
• Ravel: Alborada del gracioso, Valses nobles et sentimentales
• Rossini: 6 Overtures
• Schubert Symphonies 5, 8
• J. Strauss: 2 Waltzes (Artist's Life, Mein Lebenslauf ist Lieb' und Lust)
• Tchaikovsky: Nutcracker highlights

[Willem Orange]

Yes this information comes directly from the superb review at Amazon by John Fowler - based on it I have ordered a copy. Thanks for copying it here

[Willem Orange]

My box arrived today - very nice presentation all told. Excellent book with detailed recording information and cross referencing to specific works. One complaint - the four 2 CD sets do not replicate the original liner notes but are just blank and one correction - the photo on page 100 for the Alexander Nevsky recording in not Rosalind Elias but is a photo of Rise Stevens probably taken during recording sessions for the complete Carmen recording, which of course had nothing to do with Chicago. But very nice.

[wade]

On Friday, November 8, 2013 9:52:04 AM UTC-8, Willem Orange wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 7:18:02 AM UTC-5, Willem Orange wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, November 6, 2013 6:51:49 AM UTC-5, Oscar wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > Re remasterings, as with Sony's Heifetz and Rubinstein big boxes, the producer has opted to use XRCD masters where applicable (12 total), as well as 1990's Living Stereo masters and mid-aughts Living Stereo SACD masters (the redbook layers mastered by John Newton's SoundMirror in Boston, obviously, which _are_ different than the 90's LS masters). In addition, there are 32 titles, or a third of the box, which are newly remastered in DSD.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > XRCD masters can be identified where Hiromuchi Takiguchi is identified as mastering engineer.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>

> > > * Beethoven Symphonies 6, 7, Fidelio Overture
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > * Brahms Piano Concerto 2 (Emil Gilels)
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > * Liszt Mephisto Waltz
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > * Mozart Divertimento, Eine Kleine Nachtmusik
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > * Prokofiev Lt.Kije
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > * Strauss (R) Also Sprach Zarathustra (1962)
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > * Stravinsky Song of the Nightingale
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > * Tchaikovsky Symphony 6, 1812 Overture

>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > All but the Beethoven 6, Brahms and Mozart were previously issued as Living Stereo CDs. For this box, Sony (producer Robert Russ?) chose XRCD over Living Stereo.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Andreas K. Meyer and Jeanne Montalvo are the mastering engineers responsible for the new 24-bit DSD re-masterings.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>

> > > * Bach: Piano Concerto 5 (Andre Tchaikovsky)
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > * Beethoven: Symphonies 1, 3, 9
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > * Berlioz: Les nuits d'été (Leontyne Price)
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > * Brahms Symphony 3, Tragic Overture **
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > * Debussy: Ibéria
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > * Haydn: Symphonies 88, 95, 101
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > * Mendelssohn Hebrides Overture
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > * Mozart: Symphonies 36, 39, 40, 41, Don Giovanni Overture, Piano Concerto 25 (Andre Tchaikovsky)
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > * Ravel: Alborada del gracioso, Valses nobles et sentimentales
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > * Rossini: 6 Overtures
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > * Schubert Symphonies 5, 8
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > * J. Strauss: 2 Waltzes (Artist's Life, Mein Lebenslauf ist Lieb' und Lust)
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > * Tchaikovsky: Nutcracker highlights

>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Yes this information comes directly from the superb review at Amazon by John Fowler - based on it I have ordered a copy. Thanks for copying it here
>
>
>
> My box arrived today - very nice presentation all told. Excellent book with detailed recording information and cross referencing to specific works. One complaint - the four 2 CD sets do not replicate the original liner notes but are just blank and one correction - the photo on page 100 for the Alexander Nevsky recording in not Rosalind Elias but is a photo of Rise Stevens probably taken during recording sessions for the complete Carmen recording, which of course had nothing to do with Chicago. But very nice.

Yay!!!! my Fritzy box arrived from Germany today! Guess I have a bit of listening to do! Wish there was a Supplement that would cover the Reiner-Pittsburg and Reiner-RCA Symphony recordings. Now they need to make the Big Szell box available again.

[td]

The strange thing is that we had that Michael person claiming that his Strauss sucked, big time.

Just goes to show you that some people truly are deaf.

TD

[td]

PIty that Beethoven 3 is monaural. The horns in III are simply terrific.

TD

[td]

On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 6:55:42 PM UTC-5, wade wrote:

> Yay!!!! my Fritzy box arrived from Germany today! Guess I have a bit of listening to do! Wish there was a Supplement that would cover the Reiner-Pittsburg and Reiner-RCA Symphony recordings.

Strange you should say that.

Sony/BMG in their wisdom - and fresh from the experiences of GG in various formats and boxes etc. - have gone a little way towards your request, Wade.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fritz-Reiner-Conducts-Richard-Strauss/dp/B00HY38NCS/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1393376849&sr=1-2&keywords=Reiner

The only problem is that you will now be forced to duplicate many recordings you just purchased in the Reiner box.

Life is tough, then you die. Old Chinese saying.

TD

[Ray Hall]

wade wrote:


Now they need to make the Big Szell box available again.
>

Will be interesting to see what it will contain. I have a lot of Szell
so will be interesting to see what duplication will be involved.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Bob Harper]

Yeah, I once had a copy of this and for some reason let it go. An error,
to be sure.

Bob Harper

[westover]

בתאריך יום רביעי, 26 בפברואר 2014 01:55:42 UTC+2, מאת wade:

>
> Yay!!!! my Fritzy box arrived from Germany today! Guess I have a bit of listening to do! Wish there was a Supplement that would cover the Reiner-Pittsburg and Reiner-RCA Symphony recordings. Now they need to make the Big Szell box available again.

Glad to hear that it arrived. I think you ordered it just in time. Amazon.co.uk only sells it now through a third party for 115 pounds and the north american amazons have it for 4x the price. I think that it is going out of print.

-Mike

[Oscar]

On Sunday, March 2, 2014 12:18:26 AM, westover wrote:
>
> Glad to hear that it arrived. I think you ordered it just in time. Amazon.co.uk only sells it now
> through a third party for 115 pounds and the north american amazons have it for 4x the price.
> I think that it is going out of print.

Definitely there will be a second run. As there was for Bernstein three years ago. May not resurface till September, in time for the holidays, but Robert Russ did not go to the trouble of producing this set for it to go OOP three months after the first issue (10,000 print run?).

[Dana John Hill]

I am awaiting my copy's arrival any moment. I had to go to a European
source as neither Amazon.com nor Amazon.ca had any. But I take it as a
good sign. If these boxes sell well, we're more likely to get more.

Dana John Hill
Gainesville, Florida

[gggrou...@gmail.com]

Concerning his "wide ranging repertoire," page 293 of the following Reiner bio lists his complete repertoire (although that page cannot be pulled up on the internet):

http://books.google.com/books?id=4AMPNyaD-CkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=fritz+reiner+%22philip+hart%22+contents&hl=en&sa=X&ei=i1sVU9UYyP-hBN_MgqgC&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=contents&f=false

[gggrou...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, October 19, 2013 2:26:55 PM UTC-10, Ed Presson wrote:
> I've listened to all 63 CDs in the the Sony box of Reiner's RCA recordings,
>
> and I'm a bit surprised at some of my reactions. These notes are purely
>
> subjective, but for what they're worth:
>
>
>
> Desert Island list (more than I expected):
>
>
>
> Debussy: Iberia
>
> Bartok: Concerto for Orchestra; MUSPAC
>

> Strauss: Also sprach Zarathustra; Salome and Elektra excerpts
>

> Beethoven: Symphony No. 5
>
> Weinberger: Polka & Fugue from Schwanda the Bagpiper
>
> Albeniz: Iberia (selections); Navarra; Falla: Three-Cornered Hat Dances
>
>
>
> Others I like a lot (but don't made the list above):
>
>
>
> Beethoven: Symphonies 3,6,7
>
> Prokofiev: Alexander Nevsky
>
> Mussorgsky: Pictures
>
> Rachmaninoff: Isle of the Dead
>
>
>
> Others:
>
>
>
> Mahler: Symphony No. 4 & Das Lied von der Erde I don't feel that Reiner
>
> really "got" Mahler; but when Forrester sings Mahler(in the latter), my
>
> critical faculties shut off
>
>
>
> Dvorak: Symphony No. 9 A deeply felt performance, but a bit over-dramatic
>
> for me
>
>
>
> Haydn & Mozart symphonies: I get the feeling that Reiner believed that to
>
> stress humor, charm, or grace would emasculate these works. I'll have to
>
> listen again to see if convinces me. Not so far.
>
>
>
> Works I wish Reiner had recorded (that were in his repertoire)
>
>
>
> Hindemith: Symphony: Harmonie der Welt and several Sibelius symphonies that
>
> High Fidelity magazine obituary said he did very well.
>
>
>
> Ed Presson

For a recording that came out less than 6 months ago, Amazon lists a lot of reviews and comments which may be of interest.

[td]

See my comments re Reiner vs Solti. His reputation has not waned since his death.

TD

[jwy...@hotmail.com]

The first three CDs in the new 11 CD Reiner conducts Strauss box are mono recordings:
-- The first two are Pittsburgh Symphony recordings + the 1949 Salome final scene with Welitsch recorded with the Met Opera Orchestra.
-- CD 3 has the 1950 recordings of Till Eulenspiegel and Tod & Verklarung with the "RCA Symphony"
+ two mysteries: 1951 recordings of Rosenkavalier Presentation of the Silver Rose and Act III Closing Scene.
Does anyone know anything about these Rosenkavalier excerpts?
I don't recall encountering them before.

I used to think this box was superfluous, but now I will probably have to get it.

DISC 1:
Don Juan, Op. 20 (1941)
Don Quixote, Op. 35 (1941)
Final Scene from "Salomé", Op. 54 (1949)
DISC 2:
Ein Heldenleben, Op. 40 (1947)
Le bourgeois gentilhomme: Suite, Op. 60 (1946)
DISC 3:
Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche Op. 28 (1950)
Tod und Verklärung op. 24 (1950)
The Rosenkavalier, Act II: Presentation of the Silver Rose (1951)
The Rosenkavalier, Act III: Closing Scene (1951)
DISC 4:
Also sprach Zarathustra, Op. 30 (1954)
Salome: Tanz der sieben Schleier (1954)
DISC 5:
Ein Heldenleben, Op. 40 (1954)
Don Juan Op. 20 (1954)
DISC 6:
Scenes from Elektra (1956)
DISC 7:
Le bourgeois gentilhomme: Suite, Op. 60 (1956)
Salome: Final Scene (1955)
Der Rosenkavalier: Waltzes (1957)
DISC 8:
Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche, Op. 28 (1956)
Tod und Verklärung, Op. 24 (1956)
DISC 9:
Symphonia domestica, Op. 53 (1956)
Burleske for Piano and Orchestra in D minor (1957)
DISC 10:
Don Quixote, Op. 35 (1959)
DISC 11:
Also sprach Zarathustra, Op. 30 (1962)
Don Juan, Op. 20 (1960)

[Mark Obert-Thorn]

On Wednesday, March 12, 2014 9:37:00 AM UTC-4, jwy...@hotmail.com wrote:
> CD 3 has the 1950 recordings of Till Eulenspiegel and Tod & Verklarung with the "RCA Symphony" + two mysteries: 1951 recordings of Rosenkavalier Presentation of the Silver Rose and Act III Closing Scene. Does anyone know anything about these Rosenkavalier excerpts? I don't recall encountering them before. >

These were originally issued on RCA LP LM-9010, a Rise Stevens collection of arias with Reiner conducting the RCA Victor Orchestra. It also included arias from Gluck's "Orfeo" and Mozart's "Figaro", as well as reissued excerpts from the complete Reiner/Stevens "Carmen" recording. The entire album, along with some other recordings, was previously released on CD from RCA's tapes on MET 114, "Rise Stevens - Great Artists at the Met", which was available through the MET.

Mark Obert-Thorn

[Willem Orange]

Me too

[Dontait...@aol.com]

I didn't know about this new box, with its pre-Chicago Reiner Strauss recordings. Mark Obert-Thorn explained the Rosenkavalier excerpts. For myself, since I own all of the pre-Chicago recordings and have the recent RCA Reiner/CSO set, I'm not sure that I need it. But that's just personal. For others, the Pittsburgh recordings will surely be of interest. Although one short warning!...Don Juan in 1941 is every bit is madly, almost frantically as fast as the two CSO recordings. But that was Reiner. Or as we Reiner fans who inhabited Orchestra Hall's gallery in his time so many years ago called him, "Uncle Fritz."

I must say that I find Reiner's 1950 "RCA Victor Symphony Orchestra" recordings of Till Eulenspiegel and Tod und Verklarung superior to his stereo 1956 Vienna remakes, and I am by no means alone among my fellow Reiner veterans and collectors. "Tod" in particular is important to hear because it really shows how great Reiner could be in that work, but both of them are. It's too bad that Reiner didn't record them here, in Chicago. (We [I was on the committee] did issue a live Reiner/CSO Till Eulenspiegel from the 1957/58 season some years ago in a CSO/WFMT Radiothon CD set, and as those who own it will know, it's almost indescribably great.)

A long reply. Thanks.

Don Tait

[John Wyman]

Amazon has screwed up the listing for the new
"Fritz Reiner Conducts Richard Strauss: Complete Columbia & RCA Recordings" box.

Amazon has listed the title as "Complete RCA & Columbia"

If you do an Amazon search for "Music: Reiner Strauss" , it won't take you there.

[Frank Berger]

MDT has the complete contents and is selling it for $31.49 (ex VAT) plus
shipping. Amazon lists it for $89.99 including shipping.

[Mr. Mike]

On amazon.com, searching for reiner strauss pittsburgh brings up this:

http://www.amazon.com/Test-Pressing-ONE-OF-A-KIND-Composer-Wiener-Blut/dp/B00E5MAV12

[Orchman]

On Wednesday, March 12, 2014 8:27:40 PM UTC-4, Dontait...@aol.com wrote:
<<Although one short warning!...Don Juan in 1941 is every bit is madly, almost frantically as fast as the two CSO recordings. But that was Reiner.

All of Reiner's Don Juan's are terrific...I esp like the 1960 one, which I think was made on one take - with one horn bobble repaired.

>>>I must say that I find Reiner's 1950 "RCA Victor Symphony Orchestra" recordings of Till Eulenspiegel and Tod und Verklarung superior to his stereo 1956 Vienna remakes, and I am by no means alone among my fellow Reiner veterans and collectors. "Tod" in particular is important to hear because it really shows how great Reiner could be in that work, but both of them are.

I like both the RCASO and VPO versions of each - but agree that a slight edge goes to the earlier ones. the D & T is really powerful...I believe the VPO Till was done on one take - with the VPO playing right at the edge [over the edge??] throughout..

>>It's too bad that Reiner didn't record them here, in Chicago. (We [I was on the committee] did issue a live Reiner/CSO Till Eulenspiegel from the 1957/58 season some years ago in a CSO/WFMT Radiothon CD set, and as those who own it will know, it's almost indescribably great.)>

Yes, that 10/57 live Till with CSO is great - wonderful performance - the insouciance of the impudent Till is so perfectly portrayed throughout - the orchestra seems to be having a real blast....

[Frank Berger]

I love those "From the Archives" sets and was disappointed when they
were discontinued. The only one I don't have is the Boulez set from
2005. The CSO doesn't have any. I'e been watching for it on E-bay for
several years and haven't seen one offered.

[John Wyman]

Surprise. I e-mailed Amazon about the confusing title of the new Reiner Strauss box and they agreed to change it from "Complete RCA & Columbia" to "Fritz Reiner Conducts Richard Strauss".

There will still be confusion, thought.
That is also the title of two previous Sony boxes.

[Dontait...@aol.com]

On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 9:40:06 PM UTC-5, Orchman wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 12, 2014 8:27:40 PM UTC-4, Dontait...@aol.com wrote:
>
> <<Although one short warning!...Don Juan in 1941 is every bit is madly, almost frantically as fast as the two CSO recordings. But that was Reiner.
>
>
>
> All of Reiner's Don Juan's are terrific...I esp like the 1960 one, which I think was made on one take - with one horn bobble repaired.

Yes, that Don Juan was made in just two takes. The RCA session sheets give no more details. It was recorded the same day as Haydn's Symphony no. 88. The session times were
Haydn: 9:30 AM - 12:30 PM
Strauss - 7 PM - 9 PM

> >>>I must say that I find Reiner's 1950 "RCA Victor Symphony Orchestra" recordings of Till Eulenspiegel and Tod und Verklarung superior to his stereo 1956 Vienna remakes, and I am by no means alone among my fellow Reiner veterans and collectors. "Tod" in particular is important to hear because it really shows how great Reiner could be in that work, but both of them are.
>
>
>
> I like both the RCASO and VPO versions of each - but agree that a slight edge goes to the earlier ones. the D & T is really powerful...I believe the VPO Till was done on one take - with the VPO playing right at the edge [over the edge??] throughout..

In his memoirs, "Putting the Record Straight," John Culshaw wrote about the Reiner/VPO sessions. They were recorded by Decca, and Culshaw was in charge. It's been a long time since I read the book and I can't get to it now, so I hope my memory is correct; but as I recall, Culshaw wrote that the Vienna Philharmonic were sufficiently familiar with Reiner and his uncompromising ways (the less charitable, including the Chicago Symphony, might have said "ruthless") that, hard as it seems to believe, the VPO were nervous about playing the session(s)for him. Culshaw wrote that when Reiner arrived he calmly announced that if the VPO didn't cooperate, he would leave. (If my recollection of Culshaw's comments is incorrect, a correction would be welcomed.)

I think his other solely-orchestral VPO LP, some Dvorak Slavonic Dances and Hungarian Dances by Brahms (possibly the same selection he recorded with the Pittsburgh SO for American Columbia around 1946), shows really "sdizzling" playing by the VPO.

> >>It's too bad that Reiner didn't record them here, in Chicago. (We [I was on the committee] did issue a live Reiner/CSO Till Eulenspiegel from the 1957/58 season some years ago in a CSO/WFMT Radiothon CD set, and as those who own it will know, it's almost indescribably great.)>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yes, that 10/57 live Till with CSO is great - wonderful performance - the insouciance of the impudent Till is so perfectly portrayed throughout - the orchestra seems to be having a real blast....

I saw and heard Reiner with the CSO, but not in Till. Of course I wish I had. People I've known who did said that his love, his relish, of the score were obvious: he'd grin and sometimes move almost dance a bit on the podium as he conducted. (Don't let anyone who didn't see him in person say otherwise!)

Don Tait

[Dontait...@aol.com]

[snip]

On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 10:51:02 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:

> I love those "From the Archives" sets and was disappointed when they
>
> were discontinued. The only one I don't have is the Boulez set from
>
> 2005. The CSO doesn't have any. I'e been watching for it on E-bay for
>
> several years and haven't seen one offered.

I can't resist replying, for more than one reason. First, it makes me very happy personally that you love the CSO's "From the Archives" sets because as I've written here before (including recently), I was on the committee that chose the subjects and contents of the sets. But far beyond any personal happiness is that you and others approve of them.

We had thoughts about at least two more sets; another Martinon, which would almost surely have included his spectacular performance of Le Sacre du Printemps; and another Reiner, which would have probably included excerpts from Handel's Messiah with the CSO Chorus, Schubert's Symphony no. 9 (the "Great C Major"), Bartok's Diverimento for Strings, Mendelssohn's Symphony no. 4 ("Italian"), Sibelius's Finlandia, and possibly Sibelius's Symphony no. 5. But the current CSO management decided to stop issuing the sets.

I hope you can get a copy of the Boulez set. One might not think of him when Strauss's Till Eulenspiegel comes to mind, but Boulez's 1995 performance with the CSO is unique and delightful. The choice title in the set is the stunning account of Janacek's Glagolitic Mass. So here's to your success....

Don Tait

[Gerard]

wrote in message
news:dc417bd3-51b6-47f1...@googlegroups.com...

I think his other solely-orchestral VPO LP, some Dvorak Slavonic Dances
and Hungarian Dances by Brahms (possibly the same selection he recorded with
the Pittsburgh SO for American Columbia around 1946), shows really
"sdizzling" playing by the VPO.

=============

That's a recording I have.
Would you please explain "sdizzling"?

[Christopher Webber]

On 11/04/2014 10:12, Gerard wrote:
> Would you please explain "sdizzling"?

A lovely, rare word incorporating "sizzling" and "dizzying". Don will
never use two words where one will do!

[Mark Obert-Thorn]

I just got my copy of the new Reiner/R. Strauss "Complete RCA and Columbia" box from MDT (mailed a week ago) and have been sampling through it. The mono material in the first three discs (Pittsburgh SO, Met Orchestra and RCA Victor SO), all transferred by Andreas Meyer and mostly new to "official" CD release, sound terrific. The Vienna Philharmonic disc licensed from Decca with "Till" and "Death" also sounds fine, mastered by Andrew Wedman and Thorsten Weigelt (Decca engineers?). The rest of the set will be familiar from the Reiner/Chicago complete box, mainly taken from the CD layers of the "Living Stereo" SACD remasterings done by Mark Donahue.

The packaging is a bit different this time. Inside the box, there are little original LP cover reproductions; but here, there are no wider spines with printing on them. Also, some of the programs include items from other LPs (e.g., the 1962 Zarathustra has the '62 Don Juan appended to it). And (a minor gripe) Sony didn't take this opportunity to use the original cover of LM-1806 ("Richard Strauss in High Fidelity" with the reclining Salome, which originally included both the '54 Zarathustra and the Salome Dance), opting for the replacement cover with the color photo of Reiner from the stereo issue, which was also used for the Chicago set.

Bottom line: If you have the Reiner/CSO box, it's still worth getting this set for the first three discs, provided you can get it at something more along the lines of what MDT is charging (c. $30) as opposed to what Amazon is currently asking (c. $80-$90 -- it's not showing on their site now, so I don't recall exactly).

On another note, in the same shipment from MDT, I also just received the new DG "Strauss Conducts Strauss" et al. box. The remasterings, all from 78s, are more variable. Some sources are quite good; others (the '33 Don Quixote) very noisy and worn. I didn't check all the pitches, but the Beethoven Fifth is transferred nearly a semitone sharp, while his Seventh is slightly flat. (Maybe they just played all the discs back at 78 rpm and didn't check?) The Salome Dance is faded up after the music starts. On the whole, the transfers seem to be open and not over-processed. From my recollection of the earlier, three-CD set, I think these are different transfers, or at least not mucked with as much as the earlier ones (I recall a lot of artificial reverb there). However, this one's a mixed bag, so caveat emptor.

Mark O-T

[John Wyman]

Does "Strauss conducts Strauss" include the acoustic Don Juan with the Berlin State Opera?
The one that has some sides conducted uncredited by George Szell
(Strauss was late for the recording session).
I first heard about it c.1970 when I was a regular listener to Don Tait's weekly program of historical recordings on WFMT.
I was a regular listener, but didn't own a tape recorder back then.

P.S. I ordered Reiner Conducts Strauss from Presto Classics in the UK for $36 + $4.55 shipping.
Due any day now.

[Mark Obert-Thorn]

On Friday, April 11, 2014 6:04:10 PM UTC-4, John Wyman wrote:
> Does "Strauss conducts Strauss" include the acoustic Don Juan with the Berlin State Opera?
>
> The one that has some sides conducted uncredited by George Szell
>
> (Strauss was late for the recording session).

No, it only includes his Polydor electrics (all of them, save for the early Heldenleben and the first, six-sided version of the Mozart 40th). It does have both Don Q's, though, plus his acoustic piano sides accompanying Schlusnus.

Mark O-T

[Dontait...@aol.com]

Hi Mark,

Is the Reiner/Pittsburgh recording of the suite from Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme music complete as originally issued in this CD set? As we know, there is a complicated history connected with that recording. The 78 set (M/MM 963)included nine sections, as did the first LP release of it (ML 2062, 10"). When that was reissued on ML 4800, 12," numbers 5 and 6 ("Minuet of Lully" and "Courante") were omitted. I always thought it was to fit the music on one side of the LP. But those two sections were also omitted from Reiner's April 1956 RCA Victor CSO version, and the RCA paperwork states "Please note that Fritz Reiner does not include the Suite Nos. 5 and 6." Which leads one to wonder whether Columbia omitted those two sections from ML 4800 for reasons of record space or because Reiner told them to do so.

I haven't checked my copy of ML 4800, but I recall that side B contained Reiner's Pittsburgh Don Juan and perhaps The Dance of the Seven Veils with Rodzinski/Cleveland. In any case, it had a lot of music -- one of Columbia's LPs coupling previous 10" releases.

Thanks for the update.

Don Tait

[Dontait...@aol.com]

Christopher,

Your insight is sdazzling! Thanks!

Don T.

[J]

On Thursday, April 10, 2014 6:31:18 PM UTC-4, Dontait...@aol.com wrote:
>
> In his memoirs, "Putting the Record Straight," John Culshaw wrote about the Reiner/VPO sessions. They were recorded by Decca, and Culshaw was in charge. It's been a long time since I read the book and I can't get to it now, so I hope my memory is correct; but as I recall, Culshaw wrote that the Vienna Philharmonic were sufficiently familiar with Reiner and his uncompromising ways (the less charitable, including the Chicago Symphony, might have said "ruthless") that, hard as it seems to believe, the VPO were nervous about playing the session(s)for him. Culshaw wrote that when Reiner arrived he calmly announced that if the VPO didn't cooperate, he would leave. (If my recollection of Culshaw's comments is incorrect, a correction would be welcomed.)

"His awesome reputation for rudeness preceded him, and perhaps that alone put the orchestra on its best behaviour." Culshaw says Reiner told him: "I have never worked with you before, and I have never conducted in this hall. If the balance is not perfect at the end of the first take I shall leave." (p. 143)

[Mr. Mike]

You can ask Amazon to "update product info" through a link on the
page.

The actual title of this box set is

Fritz Reiner Conducts Richard Strauss: The Complete RCA and Columbia
Recordings

I suggested that they change it to this through the above-mentioned
link, but they decided on the one you asked for, it seems. At least it
is better than before.

[Mark Obert-Thorn]

On Friday, April 11, 2014 6:25:54 PM UTC-4, Dontait...@aol.com wrote:
> Is the Reiner/Pittsburgh recording of the suite from Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme music complete as originally issued in this CD set? As we know, there is a complicated history connected with that recording. The 78 set (M/MM 963)included nine sections, as did the first LP release of it (ML 2062, 10"). When that was reissued on ML 4800, 12," numbers 5 and 6 ("Minuet of Lully" and "Courante") were omitted. I always thought it was to fit the music on one side of the LP. But those two sections were also omitted from Reiner's April 1956 RCA Victor CSO version, and the RCA paperwork states "Please note that Fritz Reiner does not include the Suite Nos. 5 and 6." Which leads one to wonder whether Columbia omitted those two sections from ML 4800 for reasons of record space or because Reiner told them to do so.
>
>
>
> I haven't checked my copy of ML 4800, but I recall that side B contained Reiner's Pittsburgh Don Juan and perhaps The Dance of the Seven Veils with Rodzinski/Cleveland. In any case, it had a lot of music -- one of Columbia's LPs coupling previous 10" releases.

The new boxed set does include all nine movements from the Pittsburgh recording. The coupling on ML 4800 was the first Szell/Cleveland recording of Till Eulenspiegel along with Reiner's Don Juan. I'd always assumed that the two movements were cut from that reissue so that Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme Suite could fit on one side of an LP, and that it was the same story when Reiner re-recorded it with Chicago as the filler side to the Elektra and Salome excerpts.

Mark O-T

[Orchman]

On Thursday, April 10, 2014 6:31:18 PM UTC-4, Dontait...@aol.com wrote:

> Yes, that Don Juan was made in just two takes. The RCA session sheets give no more details. It was recorded the same day as Haydn's Symphony no. 88. The session times were
> Haydn: 9:30 AM - 12:30 PM
> Strauss - 7 PM - 9 PM>>

That Haydn 88 is my favorite Haydn symphony recording - great performasnce, great energy...

Ray Still - long-time Oboe I of CSO - related an interesting anecdote a number of years back in an IDRS Journal interview - it must have been c1953-544, Reiner's first DonJuan performance with CSO.

<<Reiner gave a very small imperceptible beat to open the piece - which is difficult, because no one actually plays on the downbeat - there is a wonderful "wash" of 16th notes off the downbeat, ending on the orchestra tutti on the half note on the 2nd beat of the first measure.
any way, the first attempt was a mess, not together at all...Reiner stopped, scowled, glared about - <<try again>> - 2nd attempt, a little better, but still really rough, nowhere near good enough. Still says everyone was quite terrified - generally with Reiner, it was 3 strikes and you were out - was he going to fire the entire orchestra?? they wouldn't put it past him...Reiner looks about again, scowling, obviously displeased...then, with a barely perceptible twinkle, he asides to the orchestra "Vatch der elbow!!"
So, says Still <<We 'vatched der elbow' executed the opening perfectly, and were off and running>>
Reiner gave a perfect little preparatory beat with "der elbow" - He was always interested in "economical" gestures from the podium:

"The best conducting technique is that which achieves the maximum musical result with the minimum effort. The only general rule is to infuse all gestures with precision, clarity, and vitality." - Fritz Reiner

[John Wyman]

>
>
> The actual title of this box set is
>
>
>
> Fritz Reiner Conducts Richard Strauss: The Complete RCA and Columbia
>
> Recordings
>
>
>
> I suggested that they change it to this through the above-mentioned
>
> link, but they decided on the one you asked for, it seems. At least it
>
> is better than before.

I suggested it too.
"Reiner Conducts Strauss" was my second attempt to get them to change it.

[Dontait...@aol.com]

Thanks! I had not known Ray Still's story before, and am delighted to learn it. Ray has SO many such anecdotes -- someone must get him to tell them into a recorder.

Reiner's bodily conducting gestures aside from his arms and hands have been documented by others -- legs kicked toward sections (such as violas or 'cellos), his well-known and photographed puffing of cheeks as a signal to the brass, and so on.

For a conductor to start Strauss's Don Juan is so famously difficult: the little silent beat before they were to play. Have you read the interview of the Boston Symphony's timpanist Vic Firth in most recent issue of Classical Recordings Quarterly (isn't the publication's current name)? Firth says that Pierre Monteux would just give a little flick of his baton and the BSO was able to begin Don Juan perfectly. The Chicago Symphony did for sure when I heard and saw Monteux conduct it at Ravinia, but I was a kid of sorts, didn't know what to watch for -- and with Monteux there was nothing remarkable to see.

More to follow eventually.

Don Tait

[Dontait...@aol.com]

Thanks for looking this up and posting it!

As I recall, Reiner conducted Die Meistersinger during the opening season of the rebuilt Vienna State Opera House (1955), so at least some members of the VPO
knew him in person.

But Reiner could also be very human, and mention of him and Die Meistersinger reminds me of the story told by Gunther Schuller, in latter years so famous as a composer and conductor but, in his younger years, a French horn player -- and around 1950, member of the orchestra of the Metropolitan Opera. When Fritz Reiner was the company's chief conductor. And the same as ever.

Schuller wrote that during a Met orchestral rehearsal for Die Meistersinger with Reiner, a player made a mistake. Big enough that Reiner stopped, which he usually wouldn't do for simple errors. The musician said "Doctor Reiner, I'm sorry" -- then added "this is the first time I've played Die Meristersinger." Schuller wrote that the entire orchestra steeled itself for the heartless, cruel Reiner response they expected. Instead, Reiner became rather dreamy and said
only "to know Die Meistersinger for this first time...."

Again, lots to follow. Thanks to you all.

Don Tait

[Willem Orange]

Yes he conducted Meistersinger in Vienna in 1955 - the performance (excellent) is available on a few labels

[weary flake]

Thanks for the tips. But which overprocessed earlier 3cd set
are you comparing the new 5cd DG set with? Is it also DG and
on Amazon?

[Mark Obert-Thorn]

On Sunday, April 13, 2014 3:15:05 PM UTC-4, weary flake wrote:
> Thanks for the tips. But which overprocessed earlier 3cd set
> are you comparing the new 5cd DG set with? Is it also DG and
> on Amazon?

It's this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Richard-Strauss-Dirigiert/dp/B0041U3RKA/ref=sr_1_9?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1397435934&sr=1-9&keywords=strauss+conducts+strauss

The Amazon listing says 2010, but I know I had it back in the '90s. I recall that I didn't keep it because of the combination of noisy source material and added reverb.

Mark O-T

[John Wyman]

re: Strauss conducts Strauss: According to the ArkivMusic and Presto Classics websites, this new box includes 4 songs sung by Schlusnus with Strauss at the piano
BUT my old Nimbus Prima Voice Schlusnus CD (NI 7907) has 6 songs, all from the same 1921 session (matrixes between 14102 and 14125)
Missing from DG are Heimkehr and Ich Liebe Dich.
Can you confirm that the DG box is missing these 2 songs?

[Mark Obert-Thorn]

On Monday, April 21, 2014 11:15:33 AM UTC-4, John Wyman wrote:
> re: Strauss conducts Strauss: According to the ArkivMusic and Presto Classics websites, this new box includes 4 songs sung by Schlusnus with Strauss at the piano
>
> BUT my old Nimbus Prima Voice Schlusnus CD (NI 7907) has 6 songs, all from the same 1921 session (matrixes between 14102 and 14125)
>
> Missing from DG are Heimkehr and Ich Liebe Dich.
>
> Can you confirm that the DG box is missing these 2 songs?

Yes, those two songs are missing. Odd that they didn't include them.

Mark O-T

[GMS]

Received my Reiner Strauss box today (thanks, MDT). I've not sampled any items yet, but I AM bothered by some carelessness in the booklet notes. (Is it just me, or is such carelessness becoming more common these days?) First, Reiner's Brandenburg Concerti were NOT recorded in Pittsburgh. They were recorded in NY. I've seen copies of the session "sheets" that are in the possession of Don Tait and others with similar passions for accuracy, and people like Leonard Rose, for example, occupy key positions in those recordings. Secondly, Hugo Kolberg does NOT play the violin solos in Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme. The soloist in that recording is Samuel Thaviu. I knew Sam personally, recognize his playing on the records AND the 78rpm issue of the recording gives proper recognition to his contribution. C'mon Sony, let's have a little more care with the documentation.

Gary Stucka

[Dana John Hill]

In the big Reiner/CSO box, I recently noticed that one piece (possibly
the Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No. 1 with Gilels?) is listed as having
been recorded in late October 1955 and released on LP the first week of
November. That struck me as a pretty fast turn-around. I should probably
re-check the book, as I may be misremembering.

Dana John Hill
Gainesville, Florida

[John Wyman]

On March 24, Amazon listed the new Martinon/Chicago box without much fanfare.
10 CDs for $25.

Original jacket format with a nice booklet (which doesn't go into detail about musical politics).

ASIN: B00PCCWXPG

[wade]

all only available from third party sellers, nothing directly from Amazon yet.

[Ed Presson]

"John Wyman" wrote in message
news:98c0b2ee-c38f-4a95...@googlegroups.com...

Can you provide a link, please? I just did a search and could not find the
box on Amazon.com (I found it on Amazon.uk and Amazon.ca, but would
would prefer to order it domestically).

Thanks, Ed Presson

[Ed Presson]

"Ed Presson" wrote in message news:mf1t85$pbg$1...@dont-email.me...

"John Wyman" wrote in message
news:98c0b2ee-c38f-4a95...@googlegroups.com...

>On March 24, Amazon listed the new Martinon/Chicago box without much
>fanfare.
>10 CDs for $25.

>Original jacket format with a nice booklet (which doesn't go into detail
>about musical politics).

>ASIN: B00PCCWXPG

Never mind, I found it using the ASIN number.
Thanks, Ed Presson

[Steve de Mena]

Search by ASIN on amazon.com. It's there

Steve

[Orchman]

On Thursday, March 26, 2015 at 12:56:11 PM UTC-4, wade wrote

>
> all only available from third party sellers, nothing directly from Amazon yet.>>

I got it thru AmazonUK - pre-ordered it, and it arrived c March 15...I had most of the selections already, but not all - well worth it, great set...

[Sacqueboutier]

On Saturday, October 19, 2013 at 8:26:55 PM UTC-4, Ed Presson wrote:
> I've listened to all 63 CDs in the the Sony box of Reiner's RCA recordings,
> and I'm a bit surprised at some of my reactions. These notes are purely
> subjective, but for what they're worth:
>
> Desert Island list (more than I expected):
>
> Debussy: Iberia
> Bartok: Concerto for Orchestra; MUSPAC
> Strauss: Also sprach Zarathustra; Salome and Elektra excerpts
> Beethoven: Symphony No. 5
> Weinberger: Polka & Fugue from Schwanda the Bagpiper
> Albeniz: Iberia (selections); Navarra; Falla: Three-Cornered Hat Dances
>
> Others I like a lot (but don't made the list above):
>
> Beethoven: Symphonies 3,6,7
> Prokofiev: Alexander Nevsky
> Mussorgsky: Pictures
> Rachmaninoff: Isle of the Dead
>
> Others:
>
> Mahler: Symphony No. 4 & Das Lied von der Erde I don't feel that Reiner
> really "got" Mahler; but when Forrester sings Mahler(in the latter), my
> critical faculties shut off
>
> Dvorak: Symphony No. 9 A deeply felt performance, but a bit over-dramatic
> for me
>
> Haydn & Mozart symphonies: I get the feeling that Reiner believed that to
> stress humor, charm, or grace would emasculate these works. I'll have to
> listen again to see if convinces me. Not so far.
>
> Works I wish Reiner had recorded (that were in his repertoire)
>
> Hindemith: Symphony: Harmonie der Welt and several Sibelius symphonies that
> High Fidelity magazine obituary said he did very well.
>
> Ed Presson

Odd how tastes can differ. I listened to the LvB 5 and vehemently disliked it.
I found Reiner's mannerisms distracting and the horns seem underpowered
(see Kleiber/VPO). The 7th was a bit better.

The Eroica was a failure to me. I can see why it wasn't issued previously on CD
(at least not to my knowledge). One, it is in mono (odd, seeing as how RCA was
making stereo recordings at the time)....Two, the performance really falls rather
flat.

On the other hand, I've always like Reiner's "clear thinking" approach
to the Mahler 4th. I can see why it's not to everyone's taste...in fact
he is the "AntiMengelberg" here. But overall, I think it works well.

I think the Mussorgsky Pics is one of the best.

Dvorak 9 is rather boring without the drama.

Don

[wade]

The Lieberman Jazz concerto/Strauss Don Juan was recorded in stereo within 2 days of the Eroica (Dec 4, 1954). So it seems reasonable to think that the equipment should have been there to use, but at that point stereo was still a novelty so they might have thought it not essential to use. Certainly RCA was in the forefront of stereo recording for ultimate commercial use when compared to Columbia (1957), EMI (1955), Mercury (fall-winter 1955) and DG & Phillips (1958). But I have never seen any documentation that explained what the issue was specifically. There may have been only one stereo rig useable and it could have been in transit or being used elsewhere or just broken at that point. It's all pretty much conjecture until you can find an authoritative source. Then again there is the Munch Damnation of Faust stereo tapes business. Who knows.

[wanwan]

Don,

The Eroica was very early on in RCA recording stereo. I read that they only had 1 stereo deck/mixer used by the back up producer/engineer team at the time. Supposedly it was in transit from Boston at the time of the beethoven. Since mono was the primary, the stereo was still being used in experimental form. Most of the stereo recordings from that year never had "full-price" issues, but 1st came out on the budget Victrola label.

i rather like the B5 and D9. I think the 5th is in the same league as the Kleiber and Szell/VPO. I like the performance of the Dvorak. I think there is that level of tension that I liked in the Beethoven. The problem with the Beethoven and Dvorak was that it wasn't recorded by the usual RCA suspects as there was a strike at the time from what I've read. IMO, the sound wasn't really acceptable till the folks at Sound Mirror did the SACD remaster.

To me the underrated item in the set are Rossini Overtures. I compared it to a Japanese re-master of Szell/Cleveland from a few years ago and not only is the sound superior, I think Reiner was much wittier than Szell. Not in ROTFLOL way, but a droll, Beecham like manner.

-------------
Eric

[sunn...@gmail.com]

2015년 4월 5일 일요일 오전 8시 57분 40초 UTC+9, wanwan 님의 말:

> On Saturday, April 4, 2015 at 12:55:36 AM UTC-10, Sacqueboutier wrote:

> To me the underrated item in the set are Rossini Overtures.
>

> -------------
> Eric

Isn't it already considered as a classic?
imo, only Markevitch(reissued on ica classics) comes close to that level of inspiration. (unfortunately, his orchestra is much less disciplined and the sound quality is not good.)

[richard...@gmail.com]

I have always liked the Rossini Overtures. Great sound and lively performances. I have them only on a UK Decca LP reissue.

[wade]

Reiner Chicago Rossini Overtures on a UK Decca LP?

[Ed Presson]

2015? 4? 5? ??? ?? 8? 57? 40? UTC+9, wanwan ?? ?:

> On Saturday, April 4, 2015 at 12:55:36 AM UTC-10, Sacqueboutier wrote:

> To me the underrated item in the set are Rossini Overtures.
>
> -------------
> Eric

I completely agree; these are very special.

Ed Presson

[Sacqueboutier]

The stereo/mono issue may also have to do simply with their business model at the time.
The early stereos were aimed at the 2-track tapes...pretty much the only way of hearing
stereo at that time.

Producers planned out their recordings and how they wanted to market them. The Eroica wasn't planned for the tape series, hence stereo just wasn't necessary.

Evidence? The Liebermann Concerto never saw a stereo LP issue until around 1980. Though it
was recorded in stereo, the early LPs (the covers of which are reproduced in this set) were mono.
Unlike the all of the Strauss recordings, it did not see a Living Stereo LP issue.

[Ray Hall]

The Reiner Rossini Overtures were indeed superb.

Ray Hall, Taree

[wanwan]

LSC-1806 the first numbered stereo classical "Living stereo" LP was of the '54 Reiner Zarathustra. It was the only one of Reiner's 1950's Strauss stereo recordings to show up full priced until the Don Quixote showed up on the premium Soria issue. (Well the except the Rosenkavalier Waltzes show up on the CSO Vienna LSC LP.) Everything else except for the Electra excerpts first showed up in stereo on Victrola in the U.S.

I previously mentioned that perhaps the stereo recorder was on it's way from Boston according to what I had read in Fanfare. However, looking at James North's BSO discography it may have been in use elsewhere as the BSO's previous stereo was in mid-November '54.

I wonder how many of the '54 stereo recordings showed up first on Reel to reel. I know the '54 Zarathustra was on one of those early two track tapes meant for staggered head decks.
------------
Eric

[Mark Obert-Thorn]

On Sunday, April 5, 2015 at 6:34:56 PM UTC-4, wade wrote:
> Reiner Chicago Rossini Overtures on a UK Decca LP?

Decca pressed RCA releases in the UK during the 1960s, but they came out under the RCA logo. I think that's what's meant here.

Mark O-T

[Mark Obert-Thorn]

On Sunday, April 5, 2015 at 8:48:59 PM UTC-4, Sacqueboutier wrote:
> Unlike the all of the Strauss recordings, it did not see a Living Stereo LP issue.

Neither did the Sinfonia Domestica, the Salome Dance, or the '54 Don Juan ever receive a Living Stereo LP issue. They first came out in stereo on LP in the Victrola series.

Mark O-T

[Mark Obert-Thorn]

On Monday, April 6, 2015 at 5:20:34 AM UTC-4, wanwan wrote:
> I previously mentioned that perhaps the stereo recorder was on it's way from Boston according to what I had read in Fanfare. However, looking at James North's BSO discography it may have been in use elsewhere as the BSO's previous stereo was in mid-November '54.

I think I mentioned this on RMCR previously, but I asked Jack Pfeiffer specifically about the Reiner "Eroica", and he told me it was not recorded in stereo because RCA only had one stereo machine at the time, and it was in use elsewhere. (It might not have been for a Classical session, too, although that's just my speculation.)

Mark O-T

[richard...@gmail.com]

You're quite right. It is what I meant. I had some duplicated titles between Decca pressed and mastered LPs, and RCA dynaflex Victrolas in the US. No prizes for guessing which sounded better.

[Mr. Mike]

On Sat, 4 Apr 2015 03:55:32 -0700 (PDT), Sacqueboutier
<lylefra...@live.com> wrote:

>Odd how tastes can differ. I listened to the LvB 5 and vehemently disliked it.
>I found Reiner's mannerisms distracting and the horns seem underpowered
>(see Kleiber/VPO). The 7th was a bit better.

A friend of mine in the 60's also disliked Reiner's 5th, saying that
the horns were underwhelming as opposed to those in the Karajan
recording of the same era, which were much more "ballsy."

[Sacqueboutier]

Thanks Eric. That explains a lot. Frankly, I was umimpressed with the LvB 3. Guess I was
expecting more. The fact it is mono AND a rather lackluster performance explains why it
waited until The Compleat Reiner was finally issued.

Don

[Ricardo Jimenez]

On Thu, 9 Apr 2015 04:59:17 -0700 (PDT), Sacqueboutier
<lylefra...@live.com> wrote:

>Also sprach Zarathustra

I just started listening to the 44 hr 4 min marathon on Spotify. The
Zarathustra was great.

[Mark Obert-Thorn]

On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 7:59:19 AM UTC-4, Sacqueboutier wrote:
> Thanks Eric. That explains a lot. Frankly, I was umimpressed with the LvB 3. Guess I was
> expecting more. The fact it is mono AND a rather lackluster performance explains why it
> waited until The Compleat Reiner was finally issued.

It had been issued separately on CD before on RCA Gold Seal back in the '90s, coupled with Reiner's stereo Coriolan and Fidelio overtures.

Mark O-T

[jeffc]

It is unfortunate that the Verdi Req was not included -- in a state of the art remastering. From what I've read, the Legends version (with Tod und Verklarung) is inferior to the first Decca issue (with Quattro Pezzi Sacri) though it too has its problems.

Would an SACD version be able to handle the full dynamic range of the original recording?

[jeffc]

On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 7:21:39 AM UTC-4, jeffc wrote:
> It is unfortunate that the Verdi Req was not included -- in a state of the art remastering. From what I've read, the Legends version (with Tod und Verklarung) is inferior to the first Decca issue (with Quattro Pezzi Sacri) though it too has its problems.
>
> Would an SACD version be able to handle the full dynamic range of the original recording?

My apologies -- I read "Fritz Reiner - The Complete RCA Album Collection" and did not realize it was only those made with the CSO.

[John Wyman]

The booklet included with the new 22 CD box of Karl Bohm Late Recordings on DG claims that

"When Fritz Reiner stepped down as principal conductor of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, he expressed the desire that Bohm - a kindred spirit thanks to their shared love of Richard Strauss - should succeed, but the orchestra chose Jean Martinon instead."

This took me by surprise.
I wonder if the author (Christoph Schluren) hasn't confused Karl Bohm with Hans Rosbaud?
Does anyone know if Bohm ever guest-conducted the Chicago Symphony during Reiner's tenure?

[Norman Schwartz]

John Wyman wrote:
> The booklet included with the new 22 CD box of Karl Bohm Late
> Recordings on DG claims that
>
> "When Fritz Reiner stepped down as principal conductor of the Chicago
> Symphony Orchestra, he expressed the desire that Bohm - a kindred
> spirit thanks to their shared love of Richard Strauss - should
> succeed, but the orchestra chose Jean Martinon instead."
>

Reiner, (Der Erwige Jude), could have picked that Nazi sympathizer?

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Karl_B%C3%B6hm
"Although suspected by some of being an early sympathizer of the Nazi party,
Böhm never became a member. According to British music journalist Norman
Lebrecht, in November 1923 Böhm stopped a rehearsal in the Munich opera
house in order, reportedly, to watch Adolf Hitler's Beer Hall Putsch.[3] In
1930, he is said to have become angry when his wife was accused by Nazi
brownshirts of being Jewish during the premiere of Arnold Schoenberg's opera
Von heute auf morgen and to have stated that he would "tell Hitler about
this".[3] In the wake of the Nazi annexation of Austria, he gave the Hitler
salute during a concert with the Vienna Philharmonic, ironically violating
Nazi rules about places where the greeting was appropriate.[3] After the
referendum controlled by the Nazis to justify the annexation, or Anschluss,
the conductor allegedly declared that "anyone who does not approve this act
of our Führer with a hundred-per-cent YES does not deserve to bear the
honourable name of a German!"[3] Lebrecht, in making these charges, fails to
provide documentary evidence for them. While music director in Dresden, Böhm
allegedly "poured forth rhetoric glorifying the Nazi regime and its cultural
aims".[4] In 1939, he contributed to the Newspapers of the Comradeship of
German Artists special congratulatory edition on the occasion of Hitler's
50th birthday. "The path of today's music in the sphere of symphonic
works... has been marked and paved by the ideology of National Socialism..."
[5]"

[Frank Berger]

You excluded the last paragraph of the Wikipedia article.
It seems as relevant as the rest:

"On the other hand, Böhm's programming of modern works was
disliked by the Nazis, and his collaborations with anti-Nazi
directors and designers "could have been interpreted by
enemies of the Nazi regime as a brave attempt to preserve
the principle of artistic freedom",[6] and Böhm, apparently
preparing for eventual flight and exile, sent his son
Karlheinz to Switzerland.[7] According to historian Michael
H. Kater, Böhm belongs in that group of artists of whom "we
also find conflicting elements of resistance, accommodation,
and service to the regime, so that in the end they cannot be
definitively painted as either Nazis or non-Nazis."

---
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[richard...@gmail.com]

Thank you Frank.

[Dontait...@aol.com]

Yes, Bohm did. At Reiner's personal invitation while he (Reiner) was in Vienna to conduct at the Vienna State Opera during the opening festivities of the rebuilt Opera House in 1956. He appeared at the invitation of Bohm, who was the Opera's Music Director at the time. Bohm's CSO concerts were:

January 3-4, 1957

Hindemith: Symphonic Metamorphoses on Themes by Weber
Stravinsky: The Firebird: Suite (1919 version)
Beethoven: Symphony no. 7

January 10-11, 1957

Mozart: Symphony no. 40
Berg: Wozzeck: Three Fragments (Frances Yeend, sop.)
R. Strauss: Ein Heldenleben

The concerts were Bohm's North American conducting debut.

Regarding Reiner's choice for a CSO successor, the note-writer is correct. Hans Rosbaud was a regular guest consuctor of the CSO during the early 1960s, and I know from conversations with CSO members of the time, including principal trumpeter Adolph "Bud" Herseth, that the orchestra virtually worshipped him and wanted him to be Reiner's successor; but when the orchestra's manager, Seymour Raven, told them during a rehearsal break that Reiner had resigned for reasons of health, Raven said that everyone wanted Rosbaud to follow but that Rosbaud too was seriously ill and that his health made such a step impossible. And indeed Rosbaud died not long after his final CSO concerts on December 6-8, 1962 (Schumann: Piano Concerto [Eugene Istomin]; Mahler: Symphony no. 9.

I heard most of Rosbaud's CSO concerts and they rank among the greatest musical experiences of my life. Including that Mahler 9.

I believe there is an account of Reiner's friendship with and invitation to Karl Bohm in Philip Hart's biography of Reiner.

Don Tait

[John Wyman]

Thank you for the prompt reply.
I was thinking about publishing a rant about the sloppy research of the writer of the program notes.
You saved me from potential embarrassment.

May I quote you in my review of the Bohm box on Amazon?

[Dontait...@aol.com]

Yes, please. Thank you.

I forgot to write that the author of the program notes is correct that Reiner recommended Bohm as his CSO successor but that Martinon was chosen. i think it says something about Reiner's regard for Bohm as a conductor that he considered him the most qualified to continue his (Reiner's) extremely high conductorial standards.

Don Tait

[Dontait...@aol.com]

*And*: I think I was mistaken about the year of the opening of the rebuilt Vienna Opera house -- I think it was 1955, not 1956. I'd welcome a correction.

Don Tait-

[Willem Orange]

1955

[John Wyman]

Corrected.
I posted my review on Amazon UK:
Karl Böhm In Vienna - Late Recordings

It won't be released in the US for a few weeks.

Thanks again.

[Steve de Mena]

It's called "Karl Böhm - Late Recordings". No "Vienna". Amazon typo.

http://amzn.to/1FwdfJN

Steve

[Norman Schwartz]

Frank Berger wrote:
> You excluded the last paragraph of the Wikipedia article.
> It seems as relevant as the rest:
>
> "On the other hand, Böhm's programming of modern works was
> disliked by the Nazis, and his collaborations with anti-Nazi
> directors and designers "could have been interpreted by
> enemies of the Nazi regime as a brave attempt to preserve
> the principle of artistic freedom",[6] and Böhm, apparently
> preparing for eventual flight and exile, sent his son
> Karlheinz to Switzerland.[7] According to historian Michael
> H. Kater, Böhm belongs in that group of artists of whom "we
> also find conflicting elements of resistance, accommodation,
> and service to the regime, so that in the end they cannot be
> definitively painted as either Nazis or non-Nazis."
>

Certainly. But that hardly negates the previous and as far as PR be
concerned, I can't see his inviting important people to his hone sitting
down breaking bread with him. (OTOH I can easily seem him hanging with a
noose around his neck.)

[Norman Schwartz]

Frank Berger wrote:
> You excluded the last paragraph of the Wikipedia article.
> It seems as relevant as the rest:
>
> "On the other hand, Böhm's programming of modern works was
> disliked by the Nazis, and his collaborations with anti-Nazi
> directors and designers "could have been interpreted by
> enemies of the Nazi regime as a brave attempt to preserve
> the principle of artistic freedom",[6] and Böhm, apparently
> preparing for eventual flight and exile, sent his son
> Karlheinz to Switzerland.[7] According to historian Michael
> H. Kater, Böhm belongs in that group of artists of whom "we
> also find conflicting elements of resistance, accommodation,
> and service to the regime, so that in the end they cannot be
> definitively painted as either Nazis or non-Nazis."
>

Somewhere I've come across the remark that 'Lenny' made to 'Felicia', (and
paraphrased) I'd like to introduce you to HvK, he's the nicest Nazi you'll
ever meet.