Tchaikovsky Pathetique

[Yoel Lax]

I am looking for a really good recording of Tchaikovsky sixth symphony. I
have seen raving reviews of Pletnev's recording, but I haven't had a chance
to hear it, so any comments about this one will be appreciated.
Of the recordings I HAVE heard (Karajan, Dutoit, Ormandy, Gorenstein, and
others) I like the one by Janssons the best. I am looking for a very dark
and tragic performance. Rather a little too slow than too fast.

If you have any suggestions, please write directly to me at
la...@wharton.upenn.edu

Thanks,
--
****************************************************************
Yoel Lax
The Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania
la...@assets.wharton.upenn.edu
****************************************************************

[Paul Goldstein]

Yoel Lax wrote:
>
> I am looking for a really good recording of Tchaikovsky sixth symphony. I
> have seen raving reviews of Pletnev's recording, but I haven't had a chance
> to hear it, so any comments about this one will be appreciated.
> Of the recordings I HAVE heard (Karajan, Dutoit, Ormandy, Gorenstein, and
> others) I like the one by Janssons the best. I am looking for a very dark
> and tragic performance. Rather a little too slow than too fast.

Not slow, but definitely dark and tragic: Mravinsky/Leningrad (the
stereo version on DGG)

V e r y slow, dark, and tragic (if you can succumb to its extremism):
Bernstein/NYPO (DGG)

Just about perfect, not particularly slow, appropriately dark and
tragic: Giulini/Philharmonia (EMI)

[Deryk Barker]

Paul Goldstein (paulgo...@hotmail.com) wrote:

Flashy, shallow and overrated: Pletnev (Virgin).

--
|Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept. | Music does not have to be understood|
|Camosun College, Victoria, BC, Canada| It has to be listened to. |
|email: dba...@camosun.bc.ca | |
|phone: +1 250 370 4452 | Hermann Scherchen. |

[Opus47]

I ditto Paul Goldstein on Mravinsky and Giulini is a suprising one that isn't
mentioned enough.

I had Pletnev on Virgin. Sugar coated tragedy. Like eating steak with carmel
syrup.

I like Reiner.

Markevitch has an excellent 4, 5, and 6 for the price of one CD on Philips.

I wish I had more Pathetiques.

Fred

[g brown]

Opus47 wrote:

> I had Pletnev on Virgin. Sugar coated tragedy. Like eating steak with carmel
> syrup.

Actually,Fred it is like eating the best Argentine beefsteak at a Tango
bar in BA...the Pletnev is lean and chewey with a tantalizingly
lingering aftertaste...lower in cholesterol than some(Bernstein on DG
comes to mind)but a more fulfilling meal spiritually.Pletnev's
Pathetique on Virgin IS as great as the over-the-top reviews would
suggest.If I was on death row I would consider it for a last meal...gb

> I wish I had more Pathetiques.

Get the Jansons/Oslo...like a good T-bone from KC......

[Benjamin Maso]

>I wish I had more Pathetiques.
>

>Fred
>

The don't miss Furtwangler and Mengelberg!

Benjo

[Roland van Gaalen - Amsterdam - NL]

Benjamin Maso (benj...@euronet.nl) wrote:

: >I wish I had more Pathetiques.
: >
: >Fred
: >

: The don't miss Furtwangler and Mengelberg!

Hear hear! (There are two Mengelbergs by the way -- 1937 and 1941.)

Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam

[Sanjeev Ranade]

Finally some one mentions Furtwangler. I haven;t heard Mengelberg, but I
assume that it's great. The Furtwangler performance is the 1938 studio
recording. Also, if you wanna try something a little different try the
Monteux 4,5,6, but I don't think these are ones that you will like so
much when you compare it to the Furtwangler. Also, skip the Toscanini w/
the Phil. orch. I don't know what others think about this performance
but it doesn't really do it for me. His Schubert ninth w/ the
Philadelphia orch. is incredibly taut but the 2nd mov't is done way too
fast. Althought the Tch. isn't too fast (also the sound is poor), it's
not dark enough.
Sanjeev

[John Wilson]

I second the Furtwangler and both the Mengelbergs are very fine.
However, don't skip the Toscanini with the Philadelphia. It's an
incredible recording. Among other thing he get the second movement to
really feel like a waltz in that 5/4 meter.

John

[Al Roth]

Paul Goldstein wrote in message <35AD48...@hotmail.com>...

>Yoel Lax wrote:
>>
>> I am looking for a really good recording of Tchaikovsky sixth symphony. I
>> have seen raving reviews of Pletnev's recording, but I haven't had a
chance
>> to hear it, so any comments about this one will be appreciated.
>> Of the recordings I HAVE heard (Karajan, Dutoit, Ormandy, Gorenstein, and
>> others) I like the one by Janssons the best. I am looking for a very dark
>> and tragic performance. Rather a little too slow than too fast.
>
>Not slow, but definitely dark and tragic: Mravinsky/Leningrad (the
>stereo version on DGG)
>
>V e r y slow, dark, and tragic (if you can succumb to its extremism):
>Bernstein/NYPO (DGG)
>
>Just about perfect, not particularly slow, appropriately dark and
>tragic: Giulini/Philharmonia (EMI)
>

I have the Ormandy/Philadelphia. Can't imagine anything being much better.
Al

[rkha...@adnc.com]

In article <35AD48...@hotmail.com>,

Paul Goldstein <paulgo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Yoel Lax wrote:
> >
> > I am looking for a really good recording of Tchaikovsky sixth symphony. I
> > have seen raving reviews of Pletnev's recording, but I haven't had a chance
> > to hear it, so any comments about this one will be appreciated.
> > Of the recordings I HAVE heard (Karajan, Dutoit, Ormandy, Gorenstein, and
> > others) I like the one by Janssons the best. I am looking for a very dark
> > and tragic performance. Rather a little too slow than too fast.
>
> Not slow, but definitely dark and tragic: Mravinsky/Leningrad (the
> stereo version on DGG)
>
> V e r y slow, dark, and tragic (if you can succumb to its extremism):
> Bernstein/NYPO (DGG)
>
> Just about perfect, not particularly slow, appropriately dark and
> tragic: Giulini/Philharmonia (EMI)
>

I would like to add two recordings of this symphony which do not often get
mentioned:

- Sanderling/Berlin Symphony on Denon. A grand, tense performance that is
neither too slow or fast, but very well held together from beginning to end.
This recording holds its own against the best of them. Superb recorded sound
too.

- Paita/National Phil. on Lodia. An episodic performance with moments of
great tension and eloquence. Not a first recommendation, but well worth
searching if you love this symphony.

Ramon Khalona
Carlsbad, California

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

[rkha...@adnc.com]

In article <e$KYfBUs9GA.318@upnetnews05>,
"Al Roth" <AlbertR#@msn.com> wrote:

> I have the Ormandy/Philadelphia. Can't imagine anything being much better.
> Al

Which one? Ormandy recorded this at least three times. I am fond of the one
he recorded on Columbia Masterworks LP (which I suppose it's now on Sony).

[Bob Harper]

> : Yoel Lax wrote:
> : >
> : > I am looking for a really good recording of Tchaikovsky sixth symphony. I
> : > have seen raving reviews of Pletnev's recording, but I haven't had a chance
> : > to hear it, so any comments about this one will be appreciated.
> : > Of the recordings I HAVE heard (Karajan, Dutoit, Ormandy, Gorenstein, and
> : > others) I like the one by Janssons the best. I am looking for a very dark
> : > and tragic performance. Rather a little too slow than too fast.

By all means listen to Ferenc Fricsay on Orfeo, coupled with a wonderful
Bartok 3rd Concerto with Annie Fischer. One of the finest Pathetiques
ever made.

Bob Harper

[John Dobson]

>> : Yoel Lax wrote:
>> : >
>> : > I am looking for a really good recording of Tchaikovsky sixth

symphony. <edit> I am looking for a very dark

>> : > and tragic performance. Rather a little too slow than too fast.
>

Have you heard Bernstein/NYPO on DG? I haven't, but other's comments lead
me to believe that it meets the qualities you're seeking. The same forces'
Tchaikovsky 5 (which I have heard) is dark, slow, very effective. You might
also enjoy Klemperer's 6. One of my favorites (as are his recordings of 4 &
5), but I don't know if it's still available.

John Dobson

[John Dobson]

Neil wrote in message <35bd6e89...@reading.news.pipex.net>...
>On Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:03:40 GMT, "John Dobson" <ns.joh...@mci2000.com>
had
>this opinion

>
>> You might
>>also enjoy Klemperer's 6. One of my favorites (as are his recordings of 4
&
>>5), but I don't know if it's still available.
>

>You can get them in the UK and from Berkshire Record Outlet in the USA.
Klemp's
>5 has a lot to commend it too. His his usual intelligent, classical self
and
>there's no lack of passion too. Tempi a little slow compared to the
Russians -
>but compensated by insights.
>
>Neil

Exactly. Which I first stumbled across these a long time ago, I didn't
expect much. Here is a conductor known for massive interpretations of "the
German masters". It just seemed completely incongruous to me that he
would/could/should do Tchaikovsky. I got quite an ear opening. These are
great big interpretations, slow and monolithic. But, to me, brilliant. His
phrasing is remarkable. The care he takes in shaping inner lines highlights
detail in remarkable ways. Plus that characteristic strong pluse keeps
everything moving, slow speed notwithstanding. Finally, the playing and
sound are fine. Glad to hear they are still available someplace.

John

[Tansal]

Bob Harper <bha...@pacifier.com> wrote:
>By all means listen to Ferenc Fricsay on Orfeo, coupled with a wonderful
>Bartok 3rd Concerto with Annie Fischer. One of the finest Pathetiques
>ever made.

Is this recording anything at all like Fricsay's DG mono recording
coupled with Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto? The last two movements of
The Sixth are my absolute favourites out of the six Sixths I own.
(Hmm, that's a rather odd sentence.) The third movement is the most
frenetic of any I've ever heard, and the transition to the final
movement is a most stunning and beautiful experience.

-- Tansal

My e-mail address is as follows: the first two letters of my name;
numbers two, three, eight; the at symbol; the initials of new york
university; a period or dot; the first three letters of education.

[kevin rayburn]

Tansal wrote:
>The last two movements of
> The Sixth are my absolute favourites out of the six Sixths I own.
> (Hmm, that's a rather odd sentence.)

Try "half dozen" next time.

--
Kevin Rayburn

In Real Life: Editor--research, alumni titles, University of Louisville
In Spare Moments: Fatherhood, Music (Classical, Jazz, World), Cinema,
1920s, W.C. Fields, Monty Python, The Prisoner, Wine, etc.
Visit my sites:
W.C. Fields: The Great Man: http://www.louisville.edu/~kprayb01/WC.html
The 1920s: http://www.louisville.edu/~kprayb01/1920s.html

[BrtherJohn]

In article <6oo5av$i1h$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, rkha...@adnc.com writes:

>
>> I have the Ormandy/Philadelphia. Can't imagine anything being much better.
>> Al
>
>Which one? Ormandy recorded this at least three times. I am fond of the one
>he recorded on Columbia Masterworks LP (which I suppose it's now on Sony).
>
>

I can second the recommendation for the Sony version. The later RCA and Denon
performances are variably recorded and performed.

Brthe...@aol.com (John Blair)

[DA]

Oh, great, another Klemperer must-have. I already have and love most of
his Philharmonia/EMI discs, and they're a pain to find! Check out his
Schubert 5! By the way, the Mravinsky stereo set really is up to its
rep... DA

[Derek Haslam]

In article <6okjdk$p...@news.euro.net>, Benjamin Maso

<URL:mailto:benj...@euronet.nl> wrote:
>
> >I wish I had more Pathetiques.
> >
> >Fred
> >
>
> The don't miss Furtwangler and Mengelberg!
>

> Benjo
>
>
Is Fricsay's recording available on CD? I've owned the (mono) LP for years and wouldn't part with it for anything. *What* a performance!

-- __ __ __ __ __
/ \ | ||__ |__)/ | | |_ Derek Haslam
\_\/ |__||__ | \\__ |__| __| Acorn Computer Enthusiast
\ dljh...@argonet.co.uk
Mastery of the rules is a pre-requisite for creatively breaking them

[orhan yenen]

Opus47 (opu...@aol.com) wrote:

: I ditto Paul Goldstein on Mravinsky and Giulini is a suprising one that isn't
: mentioned enough.

: I had Pletnev on Virgin. Sugar coated tragedy. Like eating steak with carmel
: syrup.

: I like Reiner.

: Markevitch has an excellent 4, 5, and 6 for the price of one CD on Philips.

: I wish I had more Pathetiques.

: Fred

I second Fred's recommendation of Markevitch which I prefer over
Mravinsky's DG.

Orhan Yenen

[David S. Phipps]

Paul Goldstein wrote in message <35AD48...@hotmail.com>...
>

>V e r y slow, dark, and tragic (if you can succumb to its extremism):
>Bernstein/NYPO (DGG)

Bernstein's timings are: 22:34, 8:29, 9:52, and 17:12. Yes, you
read that right - the last movement is 17:12! I saw that on the back of the
album when I picked it up in the shop and thought "I'm going to listen to
this just for the laugh" and plunked my money down. I started listening to
the last movement expected to be chuckling all the way through, but halfway
I was convinced that I never wanted to hear this music ever done any other
way again. Bernstein finds things in the music that I'm not sure even
Tchaikovsky knew were there. The intensity and profundity of this reading
are absolutely devastating. The other three movements are just as good.
There is one curious spot in the 3rd movement where you can hear what seems
to be Bernstein stomping on his podium out of sheer excitement, but the
music-making is so incredible at this point that one hardly even notices,
and is even perhaps more drawn in by the idea of the conductor getting so
carried away as to forget to be quiet.
I have no intention of ever buying another recording of this symphony again,
as anything else is sure to be boring and insensitive by comparison.

[Michael Weston]

Derek Haslam <dljh...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
: Is Fricsay's recording available on CD? I've owned the (mono) LP for years and

wouldn't part with it for anything. *What* a performance!

I think there are two- the mono(?) one in the Fricsay edition is with the Berlin
RIAS S.O.- and then there is the BPO one. I'd love to hear the latter one.
Perhaps it will turn up on Belart or a like licensee.

michael

[John Wilson]

On 18 Jul 1998 07:13:16 GMT, Michael Weston <rush...@europa.com>
wrote:

The later one is on Orfeo. Number is C200891 B.

John

[Al Roth]

Which one? Ormandy recorded this at least three times. I am fond of the
one
he recorded on Columbia Masterworks LP (which I suppose it's now on Sony).

Ramon Khalona
Carlsbad, California

That's the one I have. Very good performance and the sound is not bad.
Al

[Tansal]

Opus47 (opu...@aol.com) wrote:
>Markevitch has an excellent 4, 5, and 6 for the price of one CD on Philips.

ye...@unlinfo.unl.edu (orhan yenen) wrote:
>I second Fred's recommendation of Markevitch which I prefer over
>Mravinsky's DG.

Orhan, which Mravinsky DG? There is a mono and a stereo.

[Richard L]

In article <6ophuc$j9r$3...@supernews.com>, Michael Weston
<rush...@europa.com> writes

>Derek Haslam <dljh...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>: Is Fricsay's recording available on CD? I've owned the (mono) LP for years and
>wouldn't part with it for anything. *What* a performance!
>
>I think there are two- the mono(?) one in the Fricsay edition is with the Berlin
>RIAS S.O.- and then there is the BPO one. I'd love to hear the latter one.
>Perhaps it will turn up on Belart or a like licensee.
>
>michael

Am I right in remembering that the quite superb version on Orfeo has the
first bar or two missing?
Ric...@atelier48.demon.co.uk

[John Grabowski]

Deryk Barker wrote:

>
> Paul Goldstein (paulgo...@hotmail.com) wrote:
> : Yoel Lax wrote:
> : >

> : > I am looking for a really good recording of Tchaikovsky sixth symphony. I
> : > have seen raving reviews of Pletnev's recording, but I haven't had a chance
> : > to hear it, so any comments about this one will be appreciated.
> : > Of the recordings I HAVE heard (Karajan, Dutoit, Ormandy, Gorenstein, and

> : > others) I like the one by Janssons the best. I am looking for a very dark

> : > and tragic performance. Rather a little too slow than too fast.

> :
> : Not slow, but definitely dark and tragic: Mravinsky/Leningrad (the
> : stereo version on DGG)
> :
> : V e r y slow, dark, and tragic (if you can succumb to its extremism):
> : Bernstein/NYPO (DGG)
> :
> : Just about perfect, not particularly slow, appropriately dark and
> : tragic: Giulini/Philharmonia (EMI)
>

> Flashy, shallow and overrated: Pletnev (Virgin).

I haven't heard that much Pletnev, but everything I hear from him
(Tchaikovsky mostly) sounds that way. So far I'm unimpressed.

John

--
I'm just like you, except I've seen the moon up close and the earth from
far away.
--Buzz Aldrin

[Alexander Leach]

> > Paul Goldstein (paulgo...@hotmail.com) wrote:
> > : Yoel Lax wrote:
> > : >
> > : > I am looking for a really good recording of Tchaikovsky sixth
symphony. I
> > : > have seen raving reviews of Pletnev's recording, but I haven't had
a chance
> > : > to hear it, so any comments about this one will be appreciated.
> > : > Of the recordings I HAVE heard (Karajan, Dutoit, Ormandy,
Gorenstein, and
> > : > others) I like the one by Janssons the best. I am looking for a
very dark
> > : > and tragic performance. Rather a little too slow than too fast.
> > :

One recording you might consider is Sinopoli's with the Philharmonia on DG:
this is a disc which I return to often.

Regards

Alex
--

Alexand...@binternet.com

[MRPERMAN]

>> Flashy, shallow and overrated: Pletnev (Virgin).
>
>I haven't heard that much Pletnev, but everything I hear from him
>(Tchaikovsky mostly) sounds that way. So far I'm unimpressed.

Pletnev's Tchaikovsky symphonies on DG are neither flashy nor shallow; rather,
they struck me on one hearing each as reserved, unemotional, and somewhat
generic. His Manfred, on the other hand, is great.

Marc Perman

[Tansal]

Bob Harper <bha...@pacifier.com> wrote:
>By all means listen to Ferenc Fricsay on Orfeo, coupled with a wonderful
>Bartok 3rd Concerto with Annie Fischer. One of the finest Pathetiques
>ever made.

tan...@aol.com (Tansal) wrote:
>Is this recording anything at all like Fricsay's DG mono recording

>coupled with Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto? The last two movements of

>The Sixth are my absolute favourites out of the six Sixths I own.

>(Hmm, that's a rather odd sentence.) The third movement is the most
>frenetic of any I've ever heard, and the transition to the final
>movement is a most stunning and beautiful experience.

Well, having bought the damn thing, I can say that there is quite a
difference between the DG and the Orfeo recordings of The Sixth. The
Orfeo recording is much darker and more tragic than the DG, but it
does not have that frenetic third movement and transition to the
finale movement that I love so much. The third movement on Orfeo
still has lots of bite (the timpani are well captured), but it's
difficult to explain the impact of the DG - one has to experience it
to believe it. In any case, Fricsay owns this movement.

[John Grabowski]

rkha...@adnc.com wrote:
>
> In article <e$KYfBUs9GA.318@upnetnews05>,
> "Al Roth" <AlbertR#@msn.com> wrote:
>

> > I have the Ormandy/Philadelphia. Can't imagine anything being much better.
> > Al
>

> Which one? Ormandy recorded this at least three times. I am fond of the one
> he recorded on Columbia Masterworks LP (which I suppose it's now on Sony).

Yupper, that's one great recording. Though I wish he'd give a little
more umph in the finale.

John

--
...So, does listening to classical music backwards make you stupider?

[John Grabowski]

No it isn't. ;-) The "sweet" sounding strings made me throw the disc
across the room after one listen. I sent it back to BMG and said I
didn't like it--Yes, Mr. Roth, you can *do* that. ;-)

[John Wilson]

On Sat, 18 Jul 1998 00:19:29 -0600, "David S. Phipps"
<dph...@gte.net> wrote:

>
>Paul Goldstein wrote in message <35AD48...@hotmail.com>...
>>

>>V e r y slow, dark, and tragic (if you can succumb to its extremism):
>>Bernstein/NYPO (DGG)
>
>

>Bernstein's timings are: 22:34, 8:29, 9:52, and 17:12. Yes, you
>read that right - the last movement is 17:12! I saw that on the back of the
>album when I picked it up in the shop and thought "I'm going to listen to
>this just for the laugh" and plunked my money down. I started listening to
>the last movement expected to be chuckling all the way through, but halfway
>I was convinced that I never wanted to hear this music ever done any other
>way again. Bernstein finds things in the music that I'm not sure even
>Tchaikovsky knew were there. The intensity and profundity of this reading
>are absolutely devastating. The other three movements are just as good.
>There is one curious spot in the 3rd movement where you can hear what seems
>to be Bernstein stomping on his podium out of sheer excitement, but the
>music-making is so incredible at this point that one hardly even notices,
>and is even perhaps more drawn in by the idea of the conductor getting so
>carried away as to forget to be quiet.

What you are probably hearing is not a stomp but one on Lenny's jumps.
He would literally jump in moments of great excitement. Both feet
would leave the podium and would land again in a great "thump". BTW,
he was much more subdued in rehearsals (where he could talk to the
orchestra) and especially so in recording sessions.

John

[rkha...@adnc.com]

In article <ant17235...@cd05.argonet.co.uk>,
Derek Haslam <dljh...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> Is Fricsay's recording available on CD? I've owned the (mono) LP for years and
wouldn't part with it for anything. *What* a performance!

There are two Pathetiques by Fricsay available. One with the BPO which is
part of DG's Fricsay Portrait edition (an 11-CD box) and one with the
Bavarian Radio Symphony on Orfeo (coupled with Bartok's 3rd piano concerto
with Annie Fischer - a phenomenal performance). I wouldn't want to be
without any of them.

[Tansal]

Derek Haslam <dljh...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>Is Fricsay's recording available on CD? I've owned the (mono) LP for years
>and wouldn't part with it for anything. *What* a performance!

Ramon Khalona <rkha...@adnc.com> wrote:
>There are two Pathetiques by Fricsay available. One with the BPO which is
>part of DG's Fricsay Portrait edition (an 11-CD box) and one with the
>Bavarian Radio Symphony on Orfeo (coupled with Bartok's 3rd piano concerto
>with Annie Fischer - a phenomenal performance). I wouldn't want to be
>without any of them.

I just bought the Orfeo disc recently (already having purchased the DG
BPO recording - they are available individually as well) and I must
agree that I would not want to be without both of them either!

[MRPERMAN]

>No it isn't. ;-) The "sweet" sounding strings made me throw the disc
>across the room after one listen. I sent it back to BMG and said I
>didn't like it--Yes, Mr. Roth, you can *do* that. ;-)

I don't find Pletnev's strings too "sweet" in his Manfred, but I'm impressed by
your violent reaction to the recording. I've actually returned the occasional
unwanted CD to retail stores like Tower and HMV and gotten full credit. This
process requires working one's self into a state of righteous indignation
before confronting the salesperson.

Marc Perman

[David]

Let's don't forget Munch's BSO Pathetique, either.

-david gable

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 9:00:00 PM UTC-10, Yoel Lax wrote:
> I am looking for a really good recording of Tchaikovsky sixth symphony. I
> have seen raving reviews of Pletnev's recording, but I haven't had a chance
> to hear it, so any comments about this one will be appreciated.

> Of the recordings I HAVE heard (Karajan, Dutoit, Ormandy...

Ormandy's recording and both of Karajan's Berlin PO recordings are included in this recent list of recommended recordings:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/recommends/home.htm

[Tony]

Two stand out for me:

Kondrashin -- preferably live in Tokyo '67, though '65 studio is great too. Driven and intense as you'd expect from him, with a searing headlong finale.

Golovanov - this is such a personal account, intense and exhausting. Haven't heard another like it.

[gggg...@gmail.com]

Concerning that recent list, I was surprised that it didn't include Monteux's recording which according to the LIVING STEREO BIBLE is his best Living Stereo recording.

[MIFrost]

From a 2001 issue of American Record Guide:

6. There's so much emotion in this music that it seems unnecessary to underline it very heavily. Bernstein (DG) has Tchaikovsky writhing on the floor in agony and moaning with self-pity. Ormandy's Tchaikovsky is more dignified but still depressed. That is enough for most of us, I suspect. What is not acceptable is a businesslike run-through.

The DC Bernstein is the slowest ever--by far. Tension and anxiety pervade the music, even in an hour-long performance. No one has ever plumbed its depths like Bernstein. Every emotion is intensified; it drips with sorrow and self-pity. Everyone should hear it, but some will not prefer it--and some will only feel up to that kind of intensity once in a while.

If the DG is bathed in black despair from beginning to end, the emotional range of the Sony is broader. II flows effortlessly, and III is almost januty. It is still a powerful interpretation.

If that level of intensity is too much and feels like an invasion of Tchaikovsky's privacy, there is Ormandy, who treats it as great and beautiful music. Tchaikovsky maintains his dignity, but you get a pretty strong feel for the music just the same. This recording alone would place Ormandy among the great conductors and the Philadelphia among the very greatest orchestras. Again, this is the first stereo version, from 1960.

The Koizumi is nicely phrased, flexible, and graceful. Litton had plenty of passion and turmoil, and the dark parts were appropriately gloomy. Virgin's sound was excellent. The Solti is well played and recorded, and his dramatic approach will appeal to some who are tired of another kind of emotion. Some of us are convinced that he misses the point. The Muti was disturbing and unsettling, with more bite and bitterness than many. The reissued 30-year old Giulini is satisfying, with plenty of grace and intense feeling, a budget price, and great sound.

We originally reviewed Dohnanyi and Ozawa together, rejecting the brusque, boring, metronomic Dohnanyi and raving about Ozawa. The Ozawa was one of the most beautiful in sound, and the Boston strings were still among the sweetest to be heard. Ozawa was not as expressive as Ormandy or Bernstein. He was more like Monteux: the tragedy is there, but self-pity is not allowed. It's a beautiful tragedy but not ours; we see it from a slight distance. Moderation and balance rule the orchestra. Erato issued it in 1987, but it's gone now.

In 1993 Leonard Slatkin displaced it. As a conductor he identifies more with the music: you can feel the depression much powerfully, and in IV it becomes almost overwhelming. It is not a writing kind of suffering, as in Bernstein, but the Columbia recording isn't quite as good as the Slatkin. And Slatkin had plenty of feeling.

Polyansky seems fairly routine and dull and slow. Svetlanov was also fairly routine and dry but rather fast, with thin string tone and raucous brass-not as sloppy as the 5th but still unacceptable. Bychkov was certainly "the full treatment", warm-sounding and warmly emotional. The Inbal was deadpan, bland, and bloodless--very boring and (49 minutes). Marriner is fairly close to Monteux but minus some idenfinable quality that makes the Monteux more soulful (analog sound? the Boston string players?).

There were a number of Mravinskys, but the finest in both sound and interpretation was the Erato from 1982: it breathes just a little easier than the 1960 DG, though it's still fast. Mitropoulos blasted his way thru this music. He did the last movement in half the time Bernstein took (on DG). Gibson is utterly ordinary, and the Dutoit had not one shred of vitality.

The Kempe, with the Philharmonia, is simply gorgeous. He does not indulge the mood of IV as much as many; he is like Monteux there. III has tremendous force and thrust. Unlike the 5th, Kempe's 6th is monaural; but the sound is so beautiful that you have to concentrate to hear that it is not stereo. (It was 1958.)

Monteux is fast, but IV has plenty of feeling. Stokowski is deeply emotional; his first movement is the most moving of them all (except Bernstein). Stokowski also gets wonderful sounds from the musicians: in that respect he joins Ormandy and Ozawa at the top.

There's room at the top for Wit, who again turns in a truly great recording for Naxos that has everything. It is coupled with a Francesca of passion and flair. When Naxos does so well, there's no sense in anyone issuing new full-priced recordings.

Karajan recorded this six times. Look for recording dates and choose one from the 1960s or 1970s--recent enough to sound good, but not DDD (they sound terrible). His best Pathetique is probably the one on EMI, but it may be hard to find. Karajan's Tchaikovsky 5 and 6 are among the best still.

What about Reiner? It's a tightly-controlled performance, as you would expect, but with plenty of passion and intensity. The bleakness of the final pages seems more effective after the energy of the two inner movements. Slightly hissy sound.

The newest Giulini is dull and lumpish. That was not true of his EMI, now reissued. There was once a very sensitive Vienna Phil-harmonic/ Martinon; perhaps this conductor is no longer "commercially viable", but that record belonged in the top 10 or 12. Ashkenazy (same label--London or Decca) was also very fine.

There were two by Rostropovich: EMI (set) and Sony. The EMI was deeply felt, but the Sony revealed greater conductorial proficiency. It is with the National in Washington. I is not desperate--this conductor is an optimist. II is beautifully wistful, III fierce and defiant. IV is not as black as Bernstein, but the tragedy is there. The Sony was one of the dozen best.

Gunter Wand's is a somewhat detached view--objective, like a psychiatrist discussing a case. It has plenty of drive and energy, like Toscanini or Reiner. It's also tight and controlled and not emotionally involving.

Stokowski - RCA NA

Ormandy - Sony 47657

Bernstein DG 419604 or 469214[2CD]

Slatkin - RCA NA

Monteux - RCA 61901 [2CD]

Kempe - Testament 1104

Wit - Naxos 550782

Giulini - EMI 67789

Historical Note

More than 50 years after they were etched into wax, Koussevitzky's classic Tchaikovsky recordings still pack a tremendous wallop. There's a sense of discovery and wonder at every turn--not to mention a raw emotional power that's paradoxically coupled with patrician nobility and refinement. His tempos are all over the road, yet they've been so carefully chosen that the music flows naturally and with inexorable logic. Climaxes are titanic, explosive.

The Pathetique was recorded first. There's still a hint of portamento in the strings, making the music even more poignant and touching. The black darkness of the basses at the end of IV is devastating. Symphonies 4 and 5 are bracing, dramatic, and almost overwhelming in their intensity, and the orchestral execution is staggering even by today's standards. Sound is clear and rich--above average for the era (1930-44). BSO Classics has the cleanest transfer of 5, except in II, which Biddulph took from a near-pristine set of 45 RPM discs (same performance). Avoid the RCA Pathetique; an unapproved take of one side of IV was used. The outstanding 1949 Koussevitzky 4th is still locked up in RCA's vaults (the one on Biddulph is earlier).

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 05.03.2015 14:56, MIFrost wrote:
> From a 2001 issue of American Record Guide:
>
> 6. There's so much emotion in this music that it seems unnecessary to
> underline it very heavily. Bernstein (DG) has Tchaikovsky writhing on
> the floor in agony and moaning with self-pity. Ormandy's Tchaikovsky
> is more dignified but still depressed. That is enough for most of us,
> I suspect. What is not acceptable is a businesslike run-through.
>
> The DC Bernstein is the slowest ever--by far. Tension and anxiety
> pervade the music, even in an hour-long performance. No one has ever
> plumbed its depths like Bernstein. Every emotion is intensified; it
> drips with sorrow and self-pity. Everyone should hear it, but some
> will not prefer it--and some will only feel up to that kind of
> intensity once in a while.

"Some will not prefer it".
This is the statement closing the description of one of the most
disgusting recordings of a piece of classical music ever made. The
"American Record Guide" does not make me feel like knowing the world it
is writing for.
--
Lionel Tacchini

[Bob Harper]

I think your reply goes overboard, Lionel. I"m in the 'once in a while'
category, but to call it 'disgusting' is simply unfair. Unique, not for
everyday use, absolutely, but when the listener is in the right mood,
overwhelming.

Bob Harper

[Sacqueboutier]

On Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-4, Yoel Lax wrote:
> I am looking for a really good recording of Tchaikovsky sixth symphony. I
> have seen raving reviews of Pletnev's recording, but I haven't had a chance
> to hear it, so any comments about this one will be appreciated.

> Of the recordings I HAVE heard (Karajan, Dutoit, Ormandy, Gorenstein, and

> others) I like the one by Janssons the best. I am looking for a very dark

> and tragic performance. Rather a little too slow than too fast.
>

> If you have any suggestions, please write directly to me at
> la...@wharton.upenn.edu
>
> Thanks,
> --
> ****************************************************************
> Yoel Lax
> The Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania
> la...@assets.wharton.upenn.edu
> ****************************************************************

Furtwangler/Berlin...best heard on Naxos transferred by Mark Obert-Thorn

Giulini/Philharmonia on EMI Very dark IMO.

Markevitch/London on Philips

Mravinsky/St. Petersburg on DGG (stereo)

BONUS
Kurt Schwertfeger and the Oberammergau Festival Orchestra

I'm not really partial to any of Karajan's Pathetiques.

[Randy Lane]

Not listed but I include any consideration of great Tchaik 6 recordings

Mengelberg
Abbado-VPO (DG)
Silvestri

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 05.03.2015 17:13, Sacqueboutier wrote:
> I'm not really partial to any of Karajan's Pathetiques.

I was quite convinced with the old EMI recording I heard recently
(1949). I didn't compare with any other but I just kept listening to it.
Something I was not expecting to do.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[Herman]

On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 2:56:28 PM UTC+1, MIFrost wrote:
> From a 2001 issue of American Record Guide:
>

>Gunter Wand's is a somewhat detached view--objective, like a psychiatrist discussing a case.

The premiss of this review seems to be that this symphony is the picture of a psychiatric disorder in musical form. Performances / recordings that aren't sufficiently hysterical get no love.

It's a hugely debatable point of view.

[Phlmaestro75]

On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 8:56:28 AM UTC-5, MIFrost wrote:
>
>
> If that level of intensity is too much and feels like an invasion of Tchaikovsky's privacy, there is Ormandy, who treats it as great and beautiful music. Tchaikovsky maintains his dignity, but you get a pretty strong feel for the music just the same. This recording alone would place Ormandy among the great conductors and the Philadelphia among the very greatest orchestras. Again, this is the first stereo version, from 1960.
>

I know they aren't commercially available on CD, but I've long had a preference for Ormandy's early 50s mono recordings of both the Tchaikovsky 5th and 6th.

[Phlmaestro75]

On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 11:13:30 AM UTC-5, Sacqueboutier wrote:
>
> Furtwangler/Berlin...best heard on Naxos transferred by Mark Obert-Thorn
>

That Furtwangler 1938 recording and the Fricsay on Orfeo are my favorites, and both should meet the requirements of the initial request from all those years ago.

[hiker_rs]

On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 7:56:28 AM UTC-6, MIFrost wrote:

> From a 2001 issue of American Record Guide:

> [comparison snipped]

Just for grins, here's the timings for several performances of the 4th movement. Lenny outdoes Celibidache by a fair margin and is lapped by the very fastest. But I still like Bernstein in much the same way as I like other non-mainstream performances that "break the rules".

7:58 Duo Crommelynck ca 1988
8:20 Artur Rodzinski - New York PO 1947
8:21 Sir Landon Ronald - Royal Albert Hall Orchestra 1923
8:22 Willem Mengelberg - Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam 1936-7
8:28 Eugene Ormandy - Philadelphia Orchestra 1936
8:30 Philippe Gaubert - Paris Conservatory Orchestra ?
8:49 Otto Ackermann - Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra 1955
8:49 Albert Coates - London SO 1926
8:56 Otto Ackermann ?
8:57 Oskar Fried - Royal PO 1932
9:09 Arturo Toscanini - NBC SO 1947
9:13 Václav Talich - Czech PO 1953
9:14 Arturo Toscanini - Philadelphia Orchestra 1942
9:22 Konstantin Ivanov - National SO of the USSR ?
9:35 Willem Mengelberg - Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam 1941
9:36 Bruno Walter - Staatskapelle Berlin 1925
9:41 Wilhelm Furtwängler - Berlin PO 19-22 April 1951
9:41 Otto Klemperer - Philharmonia Orchestra 1961
9:45 Evgeny Mravinsky - Leningrad PO 1960
9:51 Chitose Okashiro (pf) 1999
9:51 Odd Grüner-Hegge - Oslo PO ?
9:53 Rafael Kubelik - Chicago SO ?
9:57 Jean Martinon - Vienna PO ?
9:59 Muir Mathieson - The Sinfonia of London ?
10:07 Constantin Silvestri - Philharmonia Orchestra 1957
10:08 Igor Markevitch - Berlin PO 1953
10:09 David Oistrakh - Moscow State SO ?
10:12 Carlos Païta - National PO 1989
10:14 Wilhelm Furtwängler - Berlin PO 1938
10:17 Albert Coates - National SO 1945
10:20 Wilhelm Furtwängler - Berlin PO October / November 1938
10:27 Jascha Horenstein - London SO 1967
10:34 Gennady Rozhdestvensky - Moscow RSO ?
10:38 Leopold Stokowski - London SO 1973
10:38 George Szell - Cleveland Orchestra 1969
11:03 George Georgescu - 'George Enescu' Philharmonic Orchestra 1962
11:05 Valery Gergiev - Vienna PO December 5th, 1999
11:21 Vladimir Golschmann - Vienna State Opera Orchestra ?
11:27 Klaus Tennstedt - Philadelphia Orchestra 1982
11:42 Herbert von Karajan - Berlin PO May 2nd 1988, Suntory Hall Tokyo
11:45 Takashi Asahina - Osaka PO Jan 21 1982
11:51 Nikolai Golovanov - UDSSR RSO 1947
13:10 Sergiu Celibidache - Munich PO 1992
17:11 Leonard Bernstein - New York PO 1986

-Rich

[boombox]

On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 11:13:30 AM UTC-5, Sacqueboutier wrote:

> BONUS
> Kurt Schwertfeger and the Oberammergau Festival Orchestra
>

That's actually Abendroth/Leipzig Radio, isn't it?

http://www.amazon.com/Symphony-6-Tchaikovsky/dp/B000006LJP/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1425582146&sr=1-1&keywords=abendroth+tchaikovsky+6

A really interesting outlier performance!

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 05.03.2015 20:04, boombox wrote:
> On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 11:13:30 AM UTC-5, Sacqueboutier wrote:
>
>> BONUS
>> Kurt Schwertfeger and the Oberammergau Festival Orchestra
>>
>
> That's actually Abendroth/Leipzig Radio, isn't it?

Sounds like a pretty devastating occasion.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[Sol L. Siegel]

> On Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 9:00:00 PM UTC-10, Yoel Lax wrote:
>> I am looking for a really good recording of Tchaikovsky sixth
>> symphony. I have seen raving reviews of Pletnev's recording, but I
>> haven't had a chance to hear it, so any comments about this one will
>> be appreciated.

It's been a while since I've heard Pletnev/Virgin, but I recall being
pleasantly surprised by the sound and feeling when I first played it -
a winner among the "more recent" recordings. (I haven't heard any of
his DG cycle.)

Other than that, I'll just second other people's choices:
Furtwangler/Berlin, Giulini/Philharmonia (my desert island), Fricsay,
Horenstein (which EMI had him record instead of Mahler 7 after
Klemperer decided that he wanted to do it) and Mravinsky (despite the
sound and the trumpets).


--
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

[Ray Hall]

Phlmaestro75 wrote:
> On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 8:56:28 AM UTC-5, MIFrost wrote:
>>
Ormandy's early 50s mono recordings of both the Tchaikovsky 5th and 6th.
>

Ormandy's stereo recording of the 6th for CBS is extremely good. It is
up there with Markevich, Giulini and a few others.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Terry]

On Wednesday, 15 July 1998 17:00:00 UTC+10, Yoel Lax wrote:
> I am looking for a really good recording of Tchaikovsky sixth symphony. I
> have seen raving reviews of Pletnev's recording, but I haven't had a chance
> to hear it, so any comments about this one will be appreciated.

> Of the recordings I HAVE heard (Karajan, Dutoit, Ormandy, Gorenstein, and
> others) I like the one by Janssons the best. I am looking for a very dark
> and tragic performance. Rather a little too slow than too fast.
>
> If you have any suggestions, please write directly to me at
> la...@wharton.upenn.edu
>
> Thanks,
> --
> ****************************************************************
> Yoel Lax
> The Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania
> la...@assets.wharton.upenn.edu
> ****************************************************************

Write to you direct?? This is a newsgroup not a bloody lonely hearts club. You might like to try Giulini with the Philharmonia. It's been re-released several times by EMI and now Warner, so it's easy to obtain.

[Herman]

On Friday, March 6, 2015 at 6:39:05 AM UTC+1, Terry wrote:
> On Wednesday, 15 July 1998 17:00:00 UTC+10, Yoel Lax wrote:


> > ****************************************************************
>
> Write to you direct?? This is a newsgroup not a bloody lonely hearts club.

You may or may not have noticed that the OP is from nearly 17 years ago. Seventeen years.

That, perhaps, puts your snap back at Mr. Lax a little less powerful, and rather contradicts your statement.

[Gerard]

"Sol L. Siegel" wrote in message
news:XnsA454C229D1D...@130.133.4.11...

> On Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 9:00:00 PM UTC-10, Yoel Lax wrote:
>> I am looking for a really good recording of Tchaikovsky sixth
>> symphony. I have seen raving reviews of Pletnev's recording, but I
>> haven't had a chance to hear it, so any comments about this one will
>> be appreciated.

It's been a while since I've heard Pletnev/Virgin, but I recall being
pleasantly surprised by the sound and feeling when I first played it -
a winner among the "more recent" recordings. (I haven't heard any of
his DG cycle.)

===============================

There is already a third recording made by Pletnev (PentaTone) - I didn't
hear it.

If you find an opportunity to hear his DG recording, I'ld like to see your
opinion.
Most people who wite about it prefer his first recording on Virgin.
I don't know which one I prefer. But I like his ('cool' and extremely well
controlled) DG recordings.


-------------------------------------------------

Other than that, I'll just second other people's choices:
Furtwangler/Berlin, Giulini/Philharmonia (my desert island), Fricsay,
Horenstein (which EMI had him record instead of Mahler 7 after
Klemperer decided that he wanted to do it) and Mravinsky (despite the
sound and the trumpets).

================================

Re Fricsay: do you mean his stereo DG recording?
It's amazing.

[Tony]

> Monteux is fast, but IV has plenty of feeling. Stokowski is deeply emotional; his first movement is the most moving of them all (except Bernstein). Stokowski also gets wonderful sounds from the musicians: in that respect he joins Ormandy and Ozawa at the top.

> Stokowski - RCA NA


Is anyone familiar with this Stokowski recording? In addition to the reissued RCA CD there's a live account on M&A with the LSO in 1973. I'm more curious about the latter after hearing his thrilling Brahms 4 from the '74 Proms.

[Sacqueboutier]

You got my little joke.

[Terry]

Contradicts nothing. Very topical, in fact. Hey, what is it that causes a 17 year old thread to be resurrected?

[Bob Harper]

It is, but IMO his Orfeo recording is even greater. Both are harrowing.

Bob Harper

[Gerard]

"Terry" wrote in message
news:478c0d20-389f-4bb5...@googlegroups.com...

Hey, what is it that causes a 17 year old thread to be resurrected?

====================

Archive freaks who post for the sake of posting 200 times daily.

[Lionel Tacchini]

So what's the best Pathétique in the last 17 years? Anything before 1998
is out of the game.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[Tony]

I listened to Fricsay's today and though a strong performance it sounds lacking in drive and intensity compared to the Russians (Kondrashin, Mravinsky, Golovanov).

The problem I have with Bernstein's is that he makes the finale sound terribly maudlin. From pathos to full on self-pity, which for me totally ruins the tragic feeling of this symphony. In theory I love what he does in exploring and elongating the finale. Just in such emotionally charged reflexive music it's a dangerous game and I think ultimately the long lines sag and sound mawkish, too self-pitiful which makes the intensity vanish.

[Gerard]

"Tony" wrote in message
news:473a1122-d4d5-4edc...@googlegroups.com...

===============

But Fricsay has so much intensity! I don't see why his recording is lacking
it.

Which recording by Kondrashin are you referring to?
(I have 2: on Melodiya, and on Globe - maybe more recordings exist.)

Same question for Mravinsky (3 or more recordings).
His 'intensity' can be too much.


--------------------

The problem I have with Bernstein's is that he makes the finale sound
terribly maudlin. From pathos to full on self-pity, which for me totally
ruins the tragic feeling of this symphony. In theory I love what he does in
exploring and elongating the finale. Just in such emotionally charged
reflexive music it's a dangerous game and I think ultimately the long lines
sag and sound mawkish, too self-pitiful which makes the intensity vanish.

==============

His recording for DG is "too much Bernstein" imo. Nice to hear once or
twice.

[Norman Schwartz]

"The best"? As frequently said, one has to have heard them all to know "the
best". I like Gergiev/Kirov (Philips 456 580) and Norrington/Stuttgart (even
though a famous tam-tam player gives it a "1" for artistic quality, and "10"
for its sound. http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-11403/) Perhaps
it's worth listening to if only for its sound.

[Norman Schwartz]

Perhaps Yoel Lax thought Madame von Meck might write to him?

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Friday, March 6, 2015 at 6:11:25 AM UTC-10, Tony wrote:
> On Friday, March 6, 2015 at 3:27:53 PM UTC+1, Bob Harper wrote:
> > On 3/6/15 12:54 AM, Gerard wrote:
> > > "Sol L. Siegel" wrote in message

> > > news:.

Do you mean that Bernstein's recording is more bathos than pathos?

[Herman]

if you need to put someone own that bad, even after a seventeen year time lapse, you definitely belong in lonely hearts club.

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 06.03.2015 19:24, Norman Schwartz wrote:
> Lionel Tacchini wrote:
>> On 06.03.2015 16:37, Gerard wrote:
>>> "Terry" wrote in message
>>> news:478c0d20-389f-4bb5...@googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> Hey, what is it that causes a 17 year old thread to be resurrected?
>>>
>>> ====================
>>>
>>> Archive freaks who post for the sake of posting 200 times daily.
>>>
>>
>> So what's the best Pathétique in the last 17 years? Anything before
>> 1998 is out of the game.
>
> "The best"? As frequently said, one has to have heard them all to know "the
> best".

A purely theoretical obstacle which has never stopped anyone here ;-)

> I like Gergiev/Kirov (Philips 456 580) and Norrington/Stuttgart (even
> though a famous tam-tam player gives it a "1" for artistic quality, and "10"
> for its sound. http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-11403/) Perhaps
> it's worth listening to if only for its sound.
>

Listening to Norrington right now. I understand what the reviewer is
complaining about but I actually like the way the 2nd subject is taken,
although some other things would undoubtedly take some getting used to.
Quite a few things, really. At least it is sure to give the listener
some kick and I know what Bernstein is being forced to listen to in
Hell. That's an additional pleasure.

It's all very dry, most unusual. The orchestra makes funny sounds as
well. The waltz feels like some carousel music played by an harmony
orchestra. Or is it one of these mechanical organs with monkey?

http://open.spotify.com/album/6knLDxO0IOtFMDm1I2G22k

--
Lionel Tacchini

[Steve de Mena]

On 3/5/15 2:08 AM, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 14, 1998 at 9:00:00 PM UTC-10, Yoel Lax wrote:
>> I am looking for a really good recording of Tchaikovsky sixth symphony. I
>> have seen raving reviews of Pletnev's recording, but I haven't had a chance
>> to hear it, so any comments about this one will be appreciated.

>> Of the recordings I HAVE heard (Karajan, Dutoit, Ormandy...
>
> Ormandy's recording and both of Karajan's Berlin PO recordings are included in this recent list of recommended recordings:
>
> http://www.musicweb-international.com/recommends/home.htm
>

I believe Karajan recorded the Pathetique 3 times with the Berlin
Philharmonic:
1964 - DG
1971 - EMI
1976 - DG

Steve

[Lionel Tacchini]

> On 3/5/15 2:08 AM, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:

>> Ormandy's recording and both of Karajan's Berlin PO recordings are
>> included in this recent list of recommended recordings:
>>
>> http://www.musicweb-international.com/recommends/home.htm
>>

Listening to Ormandy now. He has a tasteful way with the music which I
like, as much as the music allows, that is, and not without bite
although the sound gets harsh.

http://open.spotify.com/track/4bz06q87WVXnPvIVkUP2EL
--
Lionel Tacchini

[Tony]

I'll listen to Fricsay's a few more times -- obviously once isn't enough.

Today is Kondrashin's birthday so I've uploaded his live '67 Tokyo account to YT. For me this is his most intense and undoubtedly most driven performance, though sound is less detailed than his studio '65 account because of the cavernous Tokyo Bunkai Kaikan acoustics. Kondrashin brings a raw and violent emotion to the piece that I find utterly thrilling. It's far removed from more drawn out and elegant readings, and as I wrote in the upload, the polar opposite to Bernstein. '65 and '67 are identical in conception. Globe from '78 is not a first or second choice (that was easy).

One I want to revisit is Markevitch's. I haven't heard Mravinsky's in ages so not sure which one as I no longer have any.

To gggg - more bathos, yes that's the right way to put Bernstein's for me. Golovanov also takes his time with the finale--12 minutes--yet it feels so dramatic in comparison.

[Randy Lane]

And the 1939 Karajan recording for DG was with BPO

[lgan...@gmail.com]

Isn't there also an earlier stereo Bernstein with the NY Phil, originally on Columbia, circa 1960? Is that as extreme as the l986 recording listed here?

Mark

[Randy Lane]

Yes, 1964 to be precise.

[Randy Lane]

But 4th movement in that rendition is only 11:46.

[Al Eisner]

It must be locusts.
--
Al Eisner

[mrs...@gmail.com]

On Friday, March 6, 2015 at 4:45:09 PM UTC+1, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
> So what's the best Pathétique in the last 17 years? Anything before 1998
> is out of the game.
>
> --
> Lionel Tacchini

I was very impressed with Gergiev/Mariinsky live performance from Paris from few years ago. Very flexible but still perfectly coherent. It was for some time available on Medici TV (don't know if it still is) and I believe it had subsequent DVD release, but not audio only.

[jrsnfld]

I've enjoyed that Paris cycle, now on DVD, but for some reason I was even more struck by a Gergiev/LSO broadcast from a few years earlier (maybe 2006 or 2007). In any case, this is a piece that Gergiev does very well, very often.

--Jeff

[Terry]

Take your choice from: Jurowski/LPO; Eschenbach/Philadelphia; Gatti/RPO; P. Jaarvi/Cincinatti.

[Lionel Tacchini]

I heard one he did with the VPO. It was high voltage and not subtle,
very explicit. Well done in this particular category, though.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[jrsnfld]

On Friday, March 6, 2015 at 5:21:18 PM UTC-8, Terry wrote:
> On Saturday, 7 March 2015 02:45:09 UTC+11, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
> > On 06.03.2015 16:37, Gerard wrote:
> > > "Terry" wrote in message

> > >

> > > Hey, what is it that causes a 17 year old thread to be resurrected?
> > >
> > > ====================
> > >
> > > Archive freaks who post for the sake of posting 200 times daily.
> > >
> >
> > So what's the best Pathétique in the last 17 years? Anything before 1998
> > is out of the game.
> >
> > --
> > Lionel Tacchini
>
> Take your choice from: Jurowski/LPO; Eschenbach/Philadelphia; Gatti/RPO; P. Jaarvi/Cincinatti.

I've heard Jurowski with the Concertegebouw but not the LPO disc. I'm not sure I have time to survey the choices but if you're looking for a great Pathetique of the last 17 years, I probably wouldn't choose any of the other three, although they have their strengths. Certainly, Gatti's worth hearing, with interesting details and plenty of dramatic ideas, as usual with this conductor (I particularly enjoy his 5th). Eschenbach has nice sound and fine playing and is emotive while Jarvi/Cincy is unfortunately far more emotionally cool in pristine sound and studio environment than they were in front of a live audience.

None of these obtain the lovely smooth, dark, evocative colors one gets from a darkhorse like Dmitriev/St Petersburg SO, which I believe is only slightly too "old" to qualify as 17 anymore. There's a fabulous 80s video from Svetlanov/USSR SO that takes similar virtues and amps up the flexibility and emotive phrasing just enough to be an exceptional performance, so then what about the live Svetlanov from Japan, on Exton? Might that be the best of the litter? I haven't heard it.

One recent recording that should be among the choices: a sinewy, powerful, dramatic Tchaikovsky 6 with Nelsons/Bavarian Radio SO. Clearly this is a very good Tchaikovsky 6, fabulously played, well recorded. Perhaps the main competition is with the same orchestra, in Jansons' new recording of the work.

There are many others to consider from within the last 17 yrs, including...Asahina, Muti/ONF, Jarvi/Gothenburg, Nezet-Seguin/Rotterdam, various Gergiev releases (as mentioned earlier, this is one of his specialties and he's rarely less than exciting, beautifully phrased and balanced), Pappano (quite good--I'll have to listen again, but I remember that he makes plenty of care to be lyrical in his phrasing and his Italian orchestra is superb). There are others. It's a project to consider them all.

--Jeff

[Gerard]

"Steve de Mena" wrote in message
news:B96dnXzZJsyiZmTJ...@giganews.com...

================================

According to a Tchaikovsky discography I once found on the web these are the
recordings by Karajan:

Berlin PO Karajan, Herbert von 1939 Arkadia 78518
Berlin PO Karajan, Herbert von 1939 Gramofono AB 78653
Berlin PO Karajan, Herbert von 1960 DG 419 745-2
Berlin PO Karajan, Herbert von 1964 DG 423 223-2GMV
Berlin PO Karajan, Herbert von 1964 DG 463 774-2GB8
Berlin PO Karajan, Herbert von 1972 EMI CMS7 69833-2
Berlin PO Karajan, Herbert von 1972 EMI CDM7 69043-2
Berlin PO Karajan, Herbert von 1976 DG 419 486-2GGA
Berlin PO Karajan, Herbert von 1976 DG 429 675-2GSE4
Berlin PO Karajan, Herbert von 1976 DG 423 504-2
Berlin PO Karajan, Herbert von 1976 DG 453 068-2GTA2
Berlin PO Karajan, Herbert von 1985 DG 415 095-2GH
Berlin PO Karajan, Herbert von 1985 DG 435 356-2GH2

The last 2 of these (1985) however are with the Wiener Philharmoniker.
Was there indeed a 1960 recording with the BPO?

The same data can be found at:
http://wiki.tchaikovsky-research.net/wiki/Symphony_No._6:_Recordings


There is stated:

Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra / Herbert von Karajan (conductor) [1984]
Deutsche Grammophon 415 095-2GH (CD)
Deutsche Grammophon 439 020-2GHS (CD)

AND:

Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra / Herbert von Karajan (conductor) [1985]
Deutsche Grammophon 415 095-2GH (CD)
Deutsche Grammophon 435 356-2GH2 (CD)

[Tony]

Judging by what you've written, I'm wondering if you've heard any poor / bad / empty performances of this in the past 17 years?

[Randy Lane]

DG Catalog # 419 745-2 is Mravinsky

[mrs...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, March 7, 2015 at 12:03:47 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:
> The last 2 of these (1985) however are with the Wiener Philharmoniker.
> Was there indeed a 1960 recording with the BPO?

Not to my knowledge. There are seven commercial audio recordings of Pathetique by Karajan:

1939 BPO on DG (and various pirate labels)
1948 VPO on EMI
1956(?) Philharmonia on EMI
1964 BPO on DG
1972 BPO on EMI
1976 BPO on DG
1984 VPO on DG

[Gerard]

wrote in message
news:fd6bb924-aba7-4d75...@googlegroups.com...

I'm missing a few names (but I did not read again all posts to check which
ones exactly).

So OTTOMH:

Ashkenazy
Giulini (DG)
Jansons (Chandos)
Maazel
Martinon
Matacic
Muti
Nezet-Seguin
Reiner
Rozhdestvensky (Melodiya and IMP/LSO)
Solti

What about their recordings of Tchaikovsky 6?

[Norman Schwartz]

True as all of the above, as well as others mentioned may be, Mr. Tacchini
wrote:

[Peter H.]

What about van Kempen? I see a release of his Tchaikovsky on Australian Eloquence that intrigues me.

[jrsnfld]

On Saturday, March 7, 2015 at 6:43:18 AM UTC-8, Gerard wrote:

> Nezet-Seguin

Ahhh...one of the recordings made within the last 17 years! I find the Rotterdam sound a little "bright" and "light" for this music, so maybe this wouldn't be a first recommendation. On the other hand, they sound great and play superbly for Nezet-Seguin. He tends toward slow tempi in the outer movements (the third is quite quick) but you get a lot of nice detail and beautifully, carefully sculpted drama. Maybe the big tune in the first movement is a little fussy, but mostly I really like the way Nezet-Seguin builds patiently, inexorably from a whisper on to the big moments. This recording tells you everything about why he's in demand these days.

...

> Solti

Solti at his best (where no sense of humor is required, no added lyricism necessary). There's high drama and impact, clear textures, rock solid playing, everything from big climaxes and rapt quiet. Phrasing lacking much interest in the short term (quite different from Pappano, for example!) but the long line of the piece is very effective. Third movement exhilarating.

> What about their recordings of Tchaikovsky 6?

--Jeff

[dk]

On Wednesday, July 15, 1998 at 12:00:00 AM UTC-7, Yoel Lax wrote:
> I am looking for a really good recording of Tchaikovsky sixth symphony. I
> have seen raving reviews of Pletnev's recording, but I haven't had a chance
> to hear it, so any comments about this one will be appreciated.

> Of the recordings I HAVE heard (Karajan, Dutoit, Ormandy, Gorenstein, and
> others) I like the one by Janssons the best. I am looking for a very dark
> and tragic performance. Rather a little too slow than too fast.
>
> If you have any suggestions, please write directly to me at
> la...@wharton.upenn.edu
>
> Thanks,
> --
> ****************************************************************
> Yoel Lax
> The Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania
> la...@assets.wharton.upenn.edu
> ****************************************************************

Celi.

dk

[jrsnfld]

On Saturday, March 7, 2015 at 1:48:23 PM UTC-8, Peter H. wrote:
> What about van Kempen? I see a release of his Tchaikovsky on Australian Eloquence that intrigues me.

I haven't heard it in a long time but his Tchaikovsky is among the most passionate, personal and romantic, flexible, with individual touches of rubato (as well top-notch playing) that enhance the excitement. Well worth hearing and for a long time rather difficult to get, too. I think his 5th and Serenade for Strings are both on YT if you want a taste of what to expect.

--Jeff

[jrsnfld]

On Saturday, March 7, 2015 at 6:43:18 AM UTC-8, Gerard wrote:

> wrote in message

> Matacic

The Czech Philharmonic recording is a must-get. Matacic is not afraid of taking his time to sculpt each phrase yet the emotional impact never gets in the way of his mastery of the big picture. No wonder he was so great at Bruckner too. But if you really want the full impact of his extreme care with getting the music to sing and swoon moment to moment while building the whole, listen to the first and last movements of his live Budapest SO performance (easy to find on YT). The Czech studio performance is better played, for sure, but only a hint of the extreme approach in the other.

> Rozhdestvensky (Melodiya and IMP/LSO)

I remember liking the LSO recording but haven't heard it in a while. Rozhdestvensky is a very patient conductor but he is one of the great Tchaikovsky stylists, so you can count on hearing, phrasing, details and lots of character that remind you this was a great opera composer as well as a great ballet composer. More to the point, though, the Melodiya recording with the Moscow Radio Symphony is one to treasure and to study. Listen to how crisp the opening of the 3rd movement is, how measured and intensely that movement moves towards its conclusion. The second movement too: the way he chooses, unexpectedly perhaps, a somewhat quicker tempo, the way each phrase sustains to the next gives a light, flowing sense of motion that conveys a dance. This is a movement that so easily can seem repetitive and dull, but not here. And of course many details in the first movement, which sighs without swooning. All in all a great recording.

--Jeff

[jrsnfld]

> Judging by what you've written, I'm wondering if you've heard any poor / bad / empty performances of this in the past 17 years?

So far, not really, no. I don't actively seek Pathetiques right now, but the recent broadcasts and discs I've encountered have been excellent. On disc the playing is so good, usually, that we're left complaining only if we are looking to repeat the unforgettable examples from the past (Stokowski, Mravinsky, Furtwangler, Golovanov, Koussevitzky, and on and on). Not only are playing standards high, but the music is that great.

And how many poor/bad/empty Pathetiques made it to disc from earlier years? There's almost always something good about every one I've heard.

--Jeff

[Alan Dawes]

In article <d56cd52b-827d-448f...@googlegroups.com>,

<mrs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, March 6, 2015 at 4:45:09 PM UTC+1, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
> > So what's the best Pathétique in the last 17 years? Anything before
> > 1998 is out of the game.
> >

> I was very impressed with Gergiev/Mariinsky live performance from Paris
> from few years ago. Very flexible but still perfectly coherent. It was
> for some time available on Medici TV (don't know if it still is) and I
> believe it had subsequent DVD release, but not audio only.

It's on blu-ray on the Marinsky label BD MAR0515 along with symphonies 4
and 5. I got it from amazon.co.uk for 22uk pounds. I tried including the
url but my news server has returned it as too long.

Alan

--
alan....@argonet.co.uk
alan....@riscos.org
Using an Acorn RiscPC

[Gerard]

"Alan Dawes" wrote in message news:54a11afa75...@argonet.co.uk...

=======================

Should be this one:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tchaikovsky-Symphonies-Nos-Gergiev-Blu-ray/dp/B005HK8KXM/

(Why is it too long for your news server?)

[Gerard]

"Gerard" wrote in message
news:74b80$54fc47d8$54686658$35...@news.ziggo.nl...

===============

No, probably it is this one (much cheaper, same disc):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tchaikovsky-Symphonies-Mariinsky-Orchestra-Gergiev/dp/B005HK8L18/

[Bob Harper]

On 3/7/15 11:35 PM, jrsnfld wrote:
> On Saturday, March 7, 2015 at 6:43:18 AM UTC-8, Gerard wrote:
>> wrote in message
>
>> Matacic
>
> The Czech Philharmonic recording is a must-get. Matacic is not afraid
> of taking his time to sculpt each phrase yet the emotional impact
> never gets in the way of his mastery of the big picture. No wonder he
> was so great at Bruckner too. But if you really want the full impact
> of his extreme care with getting the music to sing and swoon moment
> to moment while building the whole, listen to the first and last
> movements of his live Budapest SO performance (easy to find on YT).
> The Czech studio performance is better played, for sure, but only a
> hint of the extreme approach in the other.

The T 6 in the CPO set is excellent, but the real prize is the 5th, than
which few if any finer have ever appeared.

Bob Harper