Furtwangler Ring/Scala 1950

[Peregrine]

I have this on the Gebhardt label, purchased about 8 years ago. Some
of the discs have stopped working, they just won't play. Has anyone
else experienced this with the set or other discs from the label?
Found some fairly good prices on Amazon and considering purchasing the
set again...

Simon

[Randy Lane]

I am certainly going to check mine tonight as I have not played it in
a long while.

There was considerable discussion last year about the RAI recording
and the merits of different editions (including the "pirated" Pristine
Classics releases). Many had a strong dislike fo the Gebhardt edition.
So, perhaps before you or anyone else makes any more purchases of the
Gebhardt set we should discuss the merits of the myriad of releases of
the La Scala set.

What other editions do folks here own?
I believe I've seen it on Fonti Cetra, and Music and Arts, but it has
been a long time since I investigated.

Is anyone familiar with more than one of them enough to offer opinions
about the differing sound qualities?

[Peregrine]

Yes, I too hadn't played the set for some time. The faulty discs -
there appears to be three of them, will not play at all. I've tried
them on two different CD players and also tried to copy them on my
mac, with no success.

Simon

[wagnerfan]

No I haven't - its also available in very good sound on the latest
Archipel transfer

Wagner Fan

[Paul Goodman]

On 2012-01-04 21:56:20 +0000, Randy Lane said:

[SNIP]

> What other editions do folks here own?
> I believe I've seen it on Fonti Cetra, and Music and Arts, but it has
> been a long time since I investigated.
>
> Is anyone familiar with more than one of them enough to offer opinions
> about the differing sound qualities?

I have the set on the Archipel label. I do like this performance, but
I don't have this particular set on any other label to compare it to
others.

--
Paul Goodman

[wagnerfan]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 17:15:34 -0500, Paul Goodman <good...@comcast.net>
wrote:

Arkivmusic gives a wonderful review for the sound on the Archipel set
but its overpriced there. i got mine from Berkshire pretty cheaply and
you can get it from e.g. jpc.de also for low prices. Wagner fan

[Tassilo]

You may not want to replace Gebhardt with Gebhardt. I haven't made
the comparison myself, but, in a long review by Henry Fogel, he
discussed the history of comparatively recent transfers of the La
Scala Ring. He praised Music & Arts, Gebhardt, and Archipel for their
worthy efforts, but he also claimed that each had been trumped by the
next, that Archipel was the best of all.

-dg

[Wadeworks]

I have kept my Fonit Cetra LP set of this recording. The box weighs a
ton, but the original reviews of the equivalent F/C CD set indicated
the sound had not been as good as the LPs sounded. Would be great to
be able to do a comparison across all CDs and these LP editions.

[Randy Lane]

> be able to do a comparison across all CDs and these LP editions.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I put each of the 12 CDs in my copy of the Gebhardt set into a CD/DVD
palyer on one computer; all 12 were recognized as redbooks audio CDs
and I was able to play the first track on every one of them. I must be
lucky; perhaps the dry central valley (Calif.) climate?
I am glad, like Wadeworks, that I kept my Fonti Cetra LP set. I've
often thought of parting with it, especially as cumbersome as it is.
Glad I did not.

[wkasimer]

On Jan 4, 5:19 pm, wagnerfan <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  Arkivmusic gives a wonderful review for the sound on the Archipel set
> but its overpriced there. i got mine from Berkshire pretty cheaply and
> you can get it from e.g. jpc.de also for low prices.

I bought Walkure when it was cheap at BRO. I compared it to the
Gebhardt box, and I thought that the sonic difference was marginal, so
I didn't replace the other three components (to be honest, Flagstad
aside, I'm not wild about the casts or the cuts).

Has anyone heard the most recent Opera d'Oro issue?:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Ring-Nibelungen-Richard-Classical/dp/B0012IWJ7G/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1325723880&sr=1-3

Bill

[wkasimer]

On Jan 4, 4:29 pm, Peregrine <simongodd...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have this on the Gebhardt label, purchased about 8 years ago. Some
> of the discs have stopped working, they just won't play. Has anyone
> else experienced this with the set or other discs from the label?

Which discs have stopped playing? I've never had a problem, but I
should check the s

Bill
.

[William Sommerwerck]

Are these pressed or burned CDs? If the latter, it's not surprising some
won't play.

Is Gebhardt in business? If so, they should replace the disks.

[Peregrine]

Discs 4, 9 and 10

[Peregrine]

On Jan 5, 8:48 am, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
wrote:

> Are these pressed or burned CDs? If the latter, it's not surprising some
> won't play.
>
> Is Gebhardt in business? If so, they should replace the disks.

There is an email address on the back of the box, so think I'll whizz
an email off to them today and see what they suggest.

Simon

[Peregrine]

Had a very quick response back to say the item is now deleted and they
have 'no spare parts'!

Shame.

[Peregrine]

Is there a link to this online, David?

Simon

[wagnerfan]

I found this

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=216357

Wagner fan

[Peregrine]

Thanks for that, but just ordered a cheap second hand copy of the
Gebhardt set from Amazon.de! May order one of the Archipel sets
though, as I respect Mr Fogel's views.

Anyone else have experience of the Archipel re-masterings?

Simon

[wagnerfan]

I have them and they are very very good - the only really awful
transfer of the 50 Ring on CD I have ever heard was on label called
Virtuoso where all the bass had been removed - in a Furtwangler
performance!!!!

Don't pay the arkiv prices - get them from other sellers or wait till
Berkshire get them in again. Wagner Fan

[Peregrine]

Thank-you. I do believe I have seen them previously for fairly cheap
prices, so shall keep my eyes peeled.

Simon

[Randy Lane]

> Berkshire get them in again.   Wagner Fan- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

You mean you never got to experience the glorious Murray Hill LPs?
My college book store had those some 30+ years ago, dirt cheap.
Talk about an experience. Whew! Mastering and sound quality aside, I
don't there was a single record in the set I had that was NOT pressed
off-center. Kraft's Bach and Brendel's Beethoven were the same.
Listening to them was like hearing them through some sort of
psychadelic synthesizer.

Didn't some outfit in the earlier days of CD issue this set on "double-
cided" CDs?

[wagnerfan]

Oh yes the Murray Hill set - it had some interesting annotations on
the back but the whole thing was transferred at least a semitone sharp
and 35+ sides so it was a very interesting listening experience. Right
up there with the infamous Allegro Royale Ring during the early days
of LP. I think I do remember those early Cds that had the special
plug so you could hear the left side and then the right side through
both channels thus doubling the capacity of the CD - I know there was
an Elektra like that. Wagner fan

[Randy Lane]

> an Elektra like that.   Wagner fan- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

I found a link to the 6-CD (two-sided CDs) I remember. It was from
"Hunt Productions".

https://www.classicalcdexchange.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=46879&cPath=1109

[Randy Lane]

> https://www.classicalcdexchange.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=46...- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Also, this link has some interesting notes about the orignal
recordings/performances/sources:

http://tinyurl.com/8yt46go

Maybe there's a lot more info like this out there.

[wagnerfan]

The ads for the Fonit Cetra LPs advertised the set as being in
stereo - there were rumors the set was recorded in experimental stereo
(as well as some wartime Bayreuth material) but they never surfaced.
The real tragedy is the la Scala Parsifal performances under
Furtwangler were never broadcast due to a strike by the engineers.
Wagner fan

[Richard S. Sandmeyer]

In article
<26110874-469e-4dd7...@k5g2000vba.googlegroups.com>,

If by "double-sided" you mean "two-sided", then I don't recall any such
issue. However, if you mean putting two mono tracks on one side of a
CD, then you're right. I do recall in the very early days of CDs there
was a label that issued a few recordings (including the Furtwaengler
Ring) in a double capacity format. What they did was use the left
channel content of the CD for one program (say the first 74 minutes* or
so of an opera) and then the right channel for the next 74 minutes of
the work. Obviously, this put up to 148 minutes of content (mono, of
course) on each CD. The user needed a preamp or receiver that could
send either of the mono input channels to both output channels or else
one would end up with a different part of the opera coming out of each
channel.**

As I recall, Philips and Sony, the inventors and licensers of the CD
format, were not too happy with this "innovation" for extending playing
time on a CD. I don't know of any CD label that still releases items in
this "mono X 2" format.


* In that era, CD's rarely were issued with playing time over 74'30" .

** Well, I suppose one could just turn the balance control all the way
to one side to play the desired mono program through a single speaker.
Then turn the balance all the way to the other side and restart the CD
to hear the rest of it through the other speaker.

--
Rich Sandmeyer
rich dot sand at verizon dot net

[wkasimer]

On Jan 5, 11:09 am, "Richard S. Sandmeyer"

<rich.s...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:

> ** Well, I suppose one could just turn the balance control all the way
> to one side to play the desired mono program through a single speaker.
> Then turn the balance all the way to the other side and restart the CD
> to hear the rest of it through the other speaker.

That's how I played those discs in the car.

Bill

[Matthew B. Tepper]

wagnerfan <ivanm...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:1rfbg7dfqnv9vda0d...@4ax.com:

> Oh yes the Murray Hill set - it had some interesting annotations on the
> back but the whole thing was transferred at least a semitone sharp and 35+
> sides so it was a very interesting listening experience. Right up there
> with the infamous Allegro Royale Ring during the early days of LP.

I've actually owned both of those (and the Allegro Royale was really Krauss
1953 under the pseudonym of "Fritz Schreiber").

> I think I do remember those early Cds that had the special plug so you
> could hear the left side and then the right side through both channels thus
> doubling the capacity of the CD - I know there was an Elektra like that.
> Wagner fan

The Krauss 1953 was issued that way by a label called Rodolphe. I still have
my copy of that one.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.

[wkasimer]

On Jan 5, 10:16 am, Randy Lane <randy.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

> You mean you never got to experience the glorious Murray Hill LPs?
> My college book store had those some 30+ years ago, dirt cheap.

Ah, memories... I bought the first copy that showed up at Cutler's in
New Haven, for $20. The sound and pressings were horrible - made my
first CD version of this performance (the Virtuoso set that WF
mentioned) sound like state-of-the-art.

Bill

[wagnerfan]

On Thu, 05 Jan 2012 10:56:34 -0600, "Matthew B. Tepper"
<oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:

>wagnerfan <ivanm...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
>letters to be typed in news:1rfbg7dfqnv9vda0d...@4ax.com:
>
>> Oh yes the Murray Hill set - it had some interesting annotations on the
>> back but the whole thing was transferred at least a semitone sharp and 35+
>> sides so it was a very interesting listening experience. Right up there
>> with the infamous Allegro Royale Ring during the early days of LP.
>
>I've actually owned both of those (and the Allegro Royale was really Krauss
>1953 under the pseudonym of "Fritz Schreiber").
>
>> I think I do remember those early Cds that had the special plug so you
>> could hear the left side and then the right side through both channels thus
>> doubling the capacity of the CD - I know there was an Elektra like that.
>> Wagner fan
>
>The Krauss 1953 was issued that way by a label called Rodolphe. I still have
>my copy of that one.

The Allegro Royale set was actually the 53 Keilberth Bayreuth with
Modl instead of Varnay. I have a copy. Wagner fan

[Matthew B. Tepper]

wkasimer <wkas...@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:94043aaa-97a2-4300-b99b-
fc62bc...@u32g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:

I bought mine in the basement of Moe's Books, on Telegraph Avenue in the
heart of Berkeley. It cost me something like $12, back in 1974 or so.

[Tassilo]

On Jan 5, 10:16 am, Randy Lane <randy.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

> You mean you never got to experience the glorious Murray Hill LPs?

I most certainly did. An experience never to be forgotten.

-dg

[Tassilo]

On Jan 5, 10:46 am, wagnerfan <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The real tragedy is the la Scala Parsifal performances under
> Furtwangler were never broadcast due to a strike by the engineers.
> Wagner fan

At least we got Callas/Gui: nobody ever conducted Wagner better than
the Gui of that performance.

-dg

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Tassilo <david...@aol.com> appears to have caused the following letters to
be typed in news:586aea03-0d63-40fc-8144-3c6d8a67403f@
32g2000yqp.googlegroups.com:

I think it was the writer of the "Parsifal" article (sorry, I'm at the office
and don't have the book to hand; Tully Potter, perhaps?) in Opera on Record
who said this performance had "spectacularly beautiful Harmonie" (i.e., wind
playing). He was right.

[Peregrine]

On Jan 6, 4:57 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Tassilo <david7ga...@aol.com> appears to have caused the following letters to

I wasn't even aware of this recording!

I see it available on a number of different labels on Amazon. Is there
one in particular I should be looking for with regards to re-
mastering?

Simon

[wagnerfan]

The best transfer of the complete performance was on the old
Virtuoso label - copies show up on ebay from time to time. Note that
the performance was cut and the Parsifal is poor - Gui is very strong,
the textures are lighter than usual but it is a reading worth hearing-
different from the Kna although not IMO necessarily better.
However if you just want Callas (she is terrific) then the best sound
of Act 2 (where Kundry does most of her singing) is on the Gala label.
Wagner fan

[Peregrine]

On Jan 6, 8:47 pm, wagnerfan <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 11:50:09 -0800 (PST), Peregrine
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> <simongodd...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thank-you very much. Shall go and have a gander over at Amazon.

Simon

[wagnerfan]

I see an inexpensive copy from Britain on ebay. Wagner fan

[wagnerfan]

Here ya go

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Parsifal-Richard/dp/B0007XFC3K/ref=sr_1_87?ie=UTF8&qid=1325883784&sr=8-87

Wagner fan

[Matthew B. Tepper]

wagnerfan <ivanm...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:d4neg7prtf265kou4...@4ax.com:

> On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 11:50:09 -0800 (PST), Peregrine
><simong...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Jan 6, 4:57 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Tassilo <david7ga...@aol.com> appears to have caused the following
>>> letters to be typed in news:586aea03-0d63-40fc-8144-3c6d8a67403f@
>>> 32g2000yqp.googlegroups.com:
>>>
>>> > On Jan 5, 10:46 am, wagnerfan <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >> The real tragedy is the la Scala Parsifal performances under
>>> >> Furtwangler were never broadcast due to a strike by the engineers.
>>> >> Wagner fan
>>>
>>> > At least we got Callas/Gui:  nobody ever conducted Wagner better
>>> > than the Gui of that performance.
>>>
>>> I think it was the writer of the "Parsifal" article (sorry, I'm at the
>>> office and don't have the book to hand; Tully Potter, perhaps?) in
>>> Opera on Record who said this performance had "spectacularly beautiful
>>> Harmonie" (i.e., wind playing).  He was right.
>>

>>I wasn't even aware of this recording!
>>
>>I see it available on a number of different labels on Amazon. Is there
>>one in particular I should be looking for with regards to re-
>>mastering?
>>
>>Simon
> The best transfer of the complete performance was on the old Virtuoso
> label - copies show up on ebay from time to time. Note that the
> performance was cut and the Parsifal is poor - Gui is very strong, the
> textures are lighter than usual but it is a reading worth hearing-
> different from the Kna although not IMO necessarily better. However if
> you just want Callas (she is terrific) then the best sound of Act 2
> (where Kundry does most of her singing) is on the Gala label.
> Wagner fan

By luck, that's the edition I have. I bought it at Music Discount Centre
in The Strand many years ago.

[Peregrine]

On Jan 6, 9:04 pm, wagnerfan <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 13:00:44 -0800 (PST), Peregrine
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Parsifal-Richard/dp/B0007XFC3K/ref=sr_1_...
>
> Wagner fan

Thanks, appreciate that. Dead cheap to order to the UK as well.

[Peregrine]

On Jan 6, 9:28 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy @earthlink.net> wrote:
> wagnerfan <ivanmax...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed innews:d4neg7prtf265kou4...@4ax.com:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 11:50:09 -0800 (PST), Peregrine

> ><simongodd...@gmail.com> wrote:

Blimey, that takes me back. Haven't there for years, is it still open?
Always seemed a little more expensive than other shops in town...

[Juan I. Cahis]

Dear friends:

Randy Lane <randy...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Jan 4, 1:29 pm, Peregrine <simongodd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have this on the Gebhardt label, purchased about 8 years ago. Some
>> of the discs have stopped working, they just won't play. Has anyone
>> else experienced this with the set or other discs from the label?
>> Found some fairly good prices on Amazon and considering purchasing the
>> set again...
>>
>> Simon
>

>I am certainly going to check mine tonight as I have not played it in
>a long while.
>
>There was considerable discussion last year about the RAI recording
>and the merits of different editions (including the "pirated" Pristine
>Classics releases). Many had a strong dislike fo the Gebhardt edition.
>So, perhaps before you or anyone else makes any more purchases of the
>Gebhardt set we should discuss the merits of the myriad of releases of
>the La Scala set.
>
>What other editions do folks here own?
>I believe I've seen it on Fonti Cetra, and Music and Arts, but it has
>been a long time since I investigated.
>
>Is anyone familiar with more than one of them enough to offer opinions
>about the differing sound qualities?

I have the original Rome set on EMI and the new incarnation in
Pristine Classical. The last one is superb, really outstanding, and
you can buy and download it in FLAC format.

I prefer the Rome Ring to La Scala Ring. It is uncut, and because it
is a concert performance, the balance between the singers and the
different instruments of the orchestra is better, in my opinion.

Thanks
Juan I. Cahis
Santiago de Chile (South America)