John Williams (composer) a thief???
Matthew Vaughan
In article <01bc1194$8c2e2e40$2bc4b7c7@708661617>, "Yuca"
<pa...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> In a review of Star Wars from the Miami Herald, a movie critic lists 7
> points that are likeable about the film. Here's one of 'em:
>
> 2. John Williams' musical score. I saw Star Wars only once 20 years ago,
> but I dreaded having to listen to that over-played music again. I was nuts.
> Gorgeous, stirring and delicate when it needs to be, this is great movie
> music. Even if Williams did swipe it from composer Paul Hindemith.
>
> What exactly does he mean by this? Star Wars music doesn't quite sound like
> Hindemith to me. I don't think Williams can be remotely compared to
> Hindemith. Both are very different composers, aren't they?
>
> P.S. I apologize if this posting is not quite in the same vein as this NG,
> but I feel very comfortable with the people who post here... sorry again.
> --
> pa...@ix.netcom.com
We've been through this many times before. Not everyone agrees, but most
think that Williams liberally borrows, usually with slight modifications,
music from a variety of other composers, and weaves it into his music. Or
perhaps he just understands all the great composers so well that his music
is constantly evocative of one or another of them? ;-)
I agree with the Miami critic in that the music is very well done and
stands on it's own, regardless of the originality of some of the ideas
it's based on. And I do hear many obvious similarities to other composers
- most of whom I learned of long after I first saw Star Wars (at age 9)!
Hindemith? I'll have to listen again. I never noticed, but I wouldn't be
surprised if some similarity popped up here and there.
--
Matthew Vaughan
matt...@macconnect.com
Classical Music and Macintosh computers? Yeah, you could say I'm in the minority...
Yuca
Derek Wong
> What exactly does he mean by this? Star Wars music doesn't quite sound like
> Hindemith to me. I don't think Williams can be remotely compared to
> Hindemith. Both are very different composers, aren't they?
Hindemith?? Wagner, me think.
Derek
Mr. Mike
"Yuca" <pa...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>In a review of Star Wars from the Miami Herald, a movie critic lists 7
>points that are likeable about the film. Here's one of 'em:
>2. John Williams' musical score. I saw Star Wars only once 20 years ago,
>but I dreaded having to listen to that over-played music again. I was nuts.
>Gorgeous, stirring and delicate when it needs to be, this is great movie
>music. Even if Williams did swipe it from composer Paul Hindemith.
>What exactly does he mean by this? Star Wars music doesn't quite sound like
>Hindemith to me. I don't think Williams can be remotely compared to
>Hindemith. Both are very different composers, aren't they?
This critic should stick to reviewing movies.
Of course, I'm sure Williams swiped from Hindemith, since he also swiped
from Stravinsky, Holst, Mahler, Walton, Shostakovich and Dvorak... ";-/
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Ellen B. Edgerton
: >2. John Williams' musical score. I saw Star Wars only once 20 years ago,
: >but I dreaded having to listen to that over-played music again. I was nuts.
: >Gorgeous, stirring and delicate when it needs to be, this is great movie
: >music. Even if Williams did swipe it from composer Paul Hindemith.
Hindemith? THAT's a new one. (adding it to the collection)
Don Patterson
Mr. Mike wrote:
>
> "Yuca" <pa...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
> >In a review of Star Wars from the Miami Herald, a movie critic lists 7
> >points that are likeable about the film. Here's one of 'em:
>
> >but I dreaded having to listen to that over-played music again. I was nuts.
> >Gorgeous, stirring and delicate when it needs to be, this is great movie
> >music. Even if Williams did swipe it from composer Paul Hindemith.
>
> >Hindemith to me. I don't think Williams can be remotely compared to
> >Hindemith. Both are very different composers, aren't they?
>
> This critic should stick to reviewing movies.
>
> Of course, I'm sure Williams swiped from Hindemith, since he also swiped
> from Stravinsky, Holst, Mahler, Walton, Shostakovich and Dvorak... ";-/
>
All of these are readily acknowledged. My question is what's wrong with it.
The man is good...no great at what he does, and he's not the first composer
to crib from others (Bach and Handel come to mind). Certainly I hear not
only the styles of the various composers listed at times appropriate to the
action on the screen, but also some seemingly direct quotes. My point is
that it does not lessen his talent for the medium. It takes a lot of skill and
musical knowledge and, yes, imagination to watch the edited final
copy of a film, compose music perfectly suiting the action, and then conducting
it with a full orchestra while watching a screen to coordinate the "hits"
with the action and scene changes. A borrower perhaps, but thief? Not!
--
Don Patterson <don...@erols.com>
"The President's Own"
United States Marine Band
The views expressed are my own and in no way reflect
those of the U.S. Marine Band or the Marine Corps.
David Rutman
Not to mention Lawrence Welk and Spike Jones!
Mr. Mike wrote:
>
>
> Of course, I'm sure Williams swiped from Hindemith, since he also swiped
> from Stravinsky, Holst, Mahler, Walton, Shostakovich and Dvorak... ";-/
>
wiz...@manger.demon.co.uk
The man is a gifted plagiarist, but then so was Korngold, Lloyd -Webber,
verdi, Handel. Now, are we saying that because they are old, hallowed by
scholarly musings over their indebtedness, they are Ok, and Williams
isn't? I happen to loathe Williams - Hindemith / Prokofiev / Martinu /
Lutoslawski / Szymanowsky / David Diamond etc etc pastiche the lot of it,
BUT is that the principle at stake?
James C.S. Liu
On 3 Feb 1997 05:35:29 GMT, "Yuca" <pa...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In a review of Star Wars from the Miami Herald, a movie critic lists 7
>points that are likeable about the film. Here's one of 'em:
>
>2. John Williams' musical score. I saw Star Wars only once 20 years ago,
>but I dreaded having to listen to that over-played music again. I was nuts.
>Gorgeous, stirring and delicate when it needs to be, this is great movie
>music. Even if Williams did swipe it from composer Paul Hindemith.
Hindemith? That's a new one on me; anyone care to cite a work that
Williams "steals from" to prove the point? Perhaps the reviewer
confuses Hindemith with Gustav Holst, more specifically "The Planets."
They have so much in common after all (not least being that their
names start with the letter "H").
Whether or not Williams begged, borrowed, or stole has been the
topic of countless flamewars around here and recently (and
acrimoniously) on r.m.c -- a quick DejaNews search should find more
Williams defenses and flames than you'd ever want to read. I'm always
amused by this sort of stuff, though -- what about Max Steiner
stealing from Korngold and Richard Strauss, and Bernard Herrmann
stealing from Wagner, Ravel, and on and on? (No, I don't really want
a reply to this rhetorical question.)
--
/James C.S. Liu |"Applying computer technology is simply
jame...@yale.edu | finding the right wrench to pound in
New Haven, Connecticut| the correct screw." -- Anonymous
My opinions have nothing to do with my employer!
Boo Boo Glass
> Of course, I'm sure Williams swiped from Hindemith, since he also swiped
> from Stravinsky, Holst, Mahler, Walton, Shostakovich and Dvorak... ";-/
>
And the HOME ALONE theme is straight out of THE NUTCRACKER.
Weve
On 3 Feb 1997 05:35:29 GMT, "Yuca" <pa...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In a review of Star Wars from the Miami Herald, a movie critic lists 7
>points that are likeable about the film. Here's one of 'em:
>
>2. John Williams' musical score. I saw Star Wars only once 20 years ago,
>but I dreaded having to listen to that over-played music again. I was
nuts.
>Gorgeous, stirring and delicate when it needs to be, this is great movie
>music. Even if Williams did swipe it from composer Paul Hindemith.
Then jame...@yale.edu (James C.S. Liu) replied:
> Hindemith? That's a new one on me; anyone care to cite a work that
>Williams "steals from" to prove the point? Perhaps the reviewer
>confuses Hindemith with Gustav Holst, more specifically "The Planets."
>They have so much in common after all (not least being that their
>names start with the letter "H").
Try the last movement from the Symphonic Metamorphosis. I've always
thought the Darth Vader's theme was inspired by the first theme in that
movement.
I've long believed John Williams owed a lot to Hindemith. It was
satisfying to read this post. (By the way, I see no problem with Williams'
homage to the great orchestrators of the previous generation)
Cheers
Jim Weaver
wiz...@manger.demon.co.uk
Does the man have a conscience? I mean John Williams? Money-making machine
simply juggernauts and hoovers his way through the less well-known areas
of earlyish 20th century romantic / impressionist / modern material and
plagiarises, pastiches, call it what you like. Listen to him and you hear
Strauss R, Hindemith, Khatchaturian, Glazunov, Szymanowski, Korngold,
Maxwell-Davies, Britten - in fact almost anyone he can lay his hands on.
BUT Handel? Bach? Well at least they borrowed mostly from themslves. And
now, John Williams' music is a way for 'respectable' symphony orchestras
to make a little money by playing in the second halves of big concerts.
Like the newsgroups on the net? Film becomes the 'real'Shakespeare.
Pavarotti's endless recital disks and videos become 'real 'opera, and
books are only real when they make a film of them. Are we talking cultural
imperialism. Sam Goldwyn, if you could only see us now? The suits / cheque
books have taken over. REader's Digest music is what Williams writes. So
what's wrong with that? It stultifies, it petrifies, it simply creates a
new dogmatism. If Williams doesn't do it, it's not real music. O tempora O
mores!