Bach complete organ, Rubsam on Philips

[lmead]

I just wanted to share my elation right now. I recently bought, used,
the complete Bach organ music on 10 cd's, Philips, Wolfgang Rubsam. I
am listening to some choral preludes now and am in heaven. Not only
is the music incredible but the sound is the best organ i've ever
heard - both recording (perfectly clear) and organ tone (orgasmic -
organsmic?). Anyone else share my enthusiasm here? anyone dare try
to tell me this isn't as good as music gets? i've tried to look up
reviews of this set but don't find much, though people say they're
less fond of Rubsam's current Naxos series for its willful playing
than the old philips one. what they should be saying, however, is GO
BUY THE PHILIPS SET!!!

happy listening! :)

-Lowell

[Richard Loeb]

You're right - I only hold it second to the Chapuis
"lmead" <lm...@umich.edu> wrote in message
news:b307e7e5.02042...@posting.google.com...

[Thomas Wood]

lmead <lm...@umich.edu> wrote in message
news:b307e7e5.02042...@posting.google.com...

> I just wanted to share my elation right now. I recently bought, used,
> the complete Bach organ music on 10 cd's, Philips, Wolfgang Rubsam. I
> am listening to some choral preludes now and am in heaven. Not only
> is the music incredible but the sound is the best organ i've ever
> heard - both recording (perfectly clear) and organ tone (orgasmic -
> organsmic?).

I have a tape of excerpts from his Philips cycle and it indeed is superb. In
comparison, on the Naxos recordings, he plays as if he's had a stroke.

Tom Wood

[ESH Tooter]

I haven't heard Rubsam on the organ, but his Naxos harpsichord recordings are
among the worst Bach playing I have ever heard. They are overlayed with an
annoying rhythmic mannerism that makes them absolutely unlistenable. Avoid at
any price. They are hazardous to your health.

Tooter

[Thomas Wood]

ESH Tooter <esht...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020421142755...@mb-ch.aol.com...

But aren't his Naxos Bach keyboard recordings on piano?

Tom Wood

[Simon Roberts]

"Thomas Wood" <woo...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:BHEw8.43121$QC1.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

Yes.

Simon

[John Gavin]

Rubsam's Naxos Bach "harpsichord" recordings are indeed so bad that they
sound like a Bosendorfer Piano to my ears :)

I found the Phillips Bach Organ works at a used record store and grabbed
it - it's indeed fine, and beautifully recorded. There is a photo of
Rubsam included in the booklet - he IS a handsome devil.

[Richard Loeb]

yes but what happened to his playing between the two sets.
"John Gavin" <jg...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:23067-3C...@storefull-2275.public.lawson.webtv.net...

[ESH Tooter]

<<
But aren't his Naxos Bach keyboard recordings on piano?

Tom Wood >>

but of course, Tom, you are right. Dumped it long ago. Not sure why I wrote
harpsichord. Comment on mannerism stands.

Tooter

[alp]

Ahhhhgh! I want this damned thing, where can I get it?

lm...@umich.edu (lmead) wrote in message news:<b307e7e5.02042...@posting.google.com>...

[Joel Warren Lidz, Ph.D.]

If one evaluates the Bach organ works in terms of performer,
instrument and recording, then the Rubsam stacks up well in terms of
the performer, though the Marcussen instrument is not my favorite.
Overall, I consider Chapuis to be the overall best choice for a
near-complete set because of his vitality and innovative use of
registration, etc. The instrument Rogg plays on his Harmonia Mundi is
probably my favorite for its ability to make the inner voices audible,
though Rogg's playing is a bit sleepy for my taste, especially in the
chorale preludes.

Joel Warren Lidz

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~jlidz/

[Brendan R. Wehrung]

But surely that's HIP. Bach certainly wouldn't have wanted to startle or
unduly alarm the good burgers from the their repose during service.

Brendan

[Joel Warren Lidz, Ph.D.]

ck...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Brendan R. Wehrung) wrote in message news:<aa23ap$sk1$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>...

> Joel Warren Lidz, Ph.D. (aero...@yahoo.com) writes:
> > If one evaluates the Bach organ works in terms of performer,
> > instrument and recording, then the Rubsam stacks up well in terms of
> > the performer, though the Marcussen instrument is not my favorite.

> > Overall, I consider Chapuis to be the best choice for a

> > near-complete set because of his vitality and innovative use of
> > registration, etc. The instrument Rogg plays on his Harmonia Mundi is
> > probably my favorite for its ability to make the inner voices audible,
> > though Rogg's playing is a bit sleepy for my taste, especially in the
> > chorale preludes.
> >
> > Joel Warren Lidz
> >
>
> But surely that's HIP. Bach certainly wouldn't have wanted to startle or
> unduly alarm the good burgers from the their repose during service.
>
> Brendan

Au contraire. Bach got into trouble with congregations for
introducing startling elements into his playing, mainly
improvisational moments. As I recall, he was also chastised for
playing too quickly, then too slowly.

Joel

[emmaitch]

"Joel Warren Lidz, Ph.D." <aero...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aacce3ec.02042...@posting.google.com...
<snip>

> Overall, I consider Chapuis to be the overall best choice for a
> near-complete set because of his vitality and innovative use of
> registration, etc. The instrument Rogg plays on his Harmonia Mundi is
> probably my favorite for its ability to make the inner voices audible,
> though Rogg's playing is a bit sleepy for my taste, especially in the
> chorale preludes.
>
> Joel Warren Lidz
>

Is the Harmonia Mundi a transfer of Rogg's Bach Organ Series on Oryx? I
have some of the series on vinyl and they are favourites, particularly
BWV 582.

Mike Hardy

---
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[David Enos]

No, the Harmonia Mundi and Oryx are two completely different cycles (the HM
was recorded at the cathedral of Arlesheim, Switzerland, and the Oryx at the
Grossmunster, Zurich). Rogg even recorded a third cycle for EMI (various
organs).

David

emmaitch <post.ton...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:aa7htg$im0$1...@paris.btinternet.com...

[Joel Warren Lidz, Ph.D.]

I haven't heard the EMI set. How does it compare with the HM set?

Joel

"David Enos" <mic...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<4fJx8.82826$ro5.7...@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...

[David Enos]

Well, it's been a while since I listened to it. I don't think it was ever
published on cd, although I think there may have been one or two discs of
excerpts. As far as the organs are concerned, they are modern
"organ-reform" instruments of the type that was being built in Scandinavian
countries in the 60s and 70s. I strongly prefer the Arlesheim organ which
is used in the HM set. It is a very warm sound, with a decidedly French
accent which I rather enjoy. I'll have to get the EMI lps out and compare
the playing one of these days.

David

Joel Warren Lidz, Ph.D. <aero...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aacce3ec.02042...@posting.google.com...

[barbara.je...@gmail.com]

i share!

[MickeyBoy]

On Sunday, April 21, 2002 at 1:25:21 AM UTC-5, lmead wrote:
> I just wanted to share my elation right now. I recently bought, used,
> the complete Bach organ music on 10 cd's, Philips, Wolfgang Rubsam.

> BUY THE PHILIPS SET!!!
>
> happy listening! :)
>
> -Lowell

Hi all,

Any comments about the Isoir set, now available from Berkshire for $15?

[howie...@btinternet.com]

My comment is that there are half a dozen organists or more who I'd rather hear than Isoir in Bach. Because they're better.

[Arno Schuh]

Hi,

the Rübsam set can't be complete in 10 CDs. I own the LP box, and that
includes more than 20 LPs. And if I am remember that correctly the first CD
issue of this recordings, including the Kunst der Fuge comes in 16 CDs.

The Isoire box imho. is great. There are some seldom heared organs. And
especially the little pieces like the Choralvorspiele are really good. One
or two CDs of them are recorded at the Gabler organ in Weingarten. The sound
and the playing is fantastic.
BROINC also offered his Kunst der Fugue. That is also a very fine, colourful
recording. I would put it into the row of the 10 best organ versions of the
Kunst der Fuge.

Yours sincerely

Arno

[Frank Berger]

The Isoir(no "e") box is at Berkshire re-released on La
Dolce Volta. $14.85 for 15 CDs.

[howie...@btinternet.com]

I agree that the AoF is interesting. In the big sets of preludes, that's to say, Orgelbuchlein, CU3 and the 18 Leipzig Chorales, I feel less interested in what he does. I think what he does is a bit glib. Orgelbuchlein is maybe the best of the bunch there.

[Arno Schuh]

howie...@btinternet.com wrote:
> Where does the idea that Rübsam's first Bach set has been issued in
> 10 CDs come from?

From the first post:

[joel...@gmail.com]

I enjoy Rubsam on Philips and Chapuis very much (chapuis was my first choice), but in my opinion, Olivier Vernet is now first choice.

[howie...@btinternet.com]

How can you see that given that I deleted it? Do you have magic powers? Anyway I have the first set on 16 CDs, as you said. One problem with that early Rubsam recording is the organ he uses, which I find a bit meh.

[Frank Berger]

Not sure how exactly it works, but you can't necessarily
delete messages from all servers.

[Al Eisner]

There is no such mechanism. And even on a single server, I don't see
how one can delete someone else's posts. (The remark, from a 14-year-old
post by Lowell Mead, is quoted by MickeyBoy recently.)
--
Al Eisner

[O]

In article
<alpine.LRH.2.00.1...@iris03.slac.stanford.edu>, Al

Eisner <eis...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:

> On Sun, 6 Nov 2016, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> > On 11/6/2016 2:04 PM, howie...@btinternet.com wrote:
> >> On Sunday, 6 November 2016 17:15:09 UTC, Arno Schuh wrote:
> >>> howie...@btinternet.com wrote:

> >>>> Where does the idea that Rˆºbsam's first Bach set has been issued in

> >>>> 10 CDs come from?
> >>>
> >>> From the first post:
> >>> On Sunday, April 21, 2002 at 2:25:21 AM UTC-4, lmead wrote:
> >>>> I just wanted to share my elation right now. I recently bought, used,
> >>
> >> How can you see that given that I deleted it? Do you have magic powers?
> >> Anyway I have the first set on 16 CDs, as you said. One problem with that
> >> early Rubsam recording is the organ he uses, which I find a bit meh.
> >
> > Not sure how exactly it works, but you can't necessarily delete messages
> > from
> > all servers.
>
> There is no such mechanism. And even on a single server, I don't see
> how one can delete someone else's posts. (The remark, from a 14-year-old
> post by Lowell Mead, is quoted by MickeyBoy recently.)

Well, there is a mechanism that attempts to allow you to "cancel your
message," but there's no requirement that the distributed servers pay
attention to it.

Since many readers access this information through Google Groups, they
tend to believe that it's run or sponsored by Google, but that is not
the case. It's actually called Usenet (or "net news") and Google only
provides a window into it, but cannot control it. (They can control
their window, but that's all.)

-Owen

[james.g...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, November 6, 2016 at 11:31:44 AM UTC-5, howie...@btinternet.com wrote:
> I agree that the AoF is interesting. In the big sets of preludes, that's to say, Orgelbuchlein, CU3 and the 18 Leipzig Chorales, I feel less interested in what he does. I think what he does is a bit glib. Orgelbuchlein is maybe the best of the bunch there.

I've been listening to the Isoir set, in the large works, his playing can be flashy, and always maintains crystal clear counterpoint. But my biggest complaint is that he seems to play metronomically from start to finish with very little variety in phrasing, so there is little sense of the large-scale structure of the pieces and they don't hold my interest. Of course Orgelbuclein and other small scale pieces are much more successful.

One really big complaint with the set is the packaging. The cardboard sleeves are glued with the seams on the inside. A couple discs have been gunked up, with the last track(s) unplayable. I had to use my own sleeves, and don't know how to clean them up. Warm, soapy water with a cloth does nothing, and I'm afraid of damaging the discs even further.

[howie...@btinternet.com]

Actually I listened to Isoir's CU3 last week. You get the feeling that he's having a bit of a laugh with the music, not totally serious. The best I can say for it is that it's better than Chapuis's.

[Randy Lane]

On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 12:52:10 PM UTC-7, howie...@btinternet.com wrote:
> Actually I listened to Isoir's CU3 last week. You get the feeling that he's having a bit of a laugh with the music, not totally serious. The best I can say for it is that it's better than Chapuis's.

Has anyone tried the Margaret Phillips traversal on Regent?

[Andy Evans]

On Sunday, 6 November 2016 19:02:00 UTC, joel...@gmail.com wrote:
> I enjoy Rubsam on Philips and Chapuis very much (chapuis was my first choice), but in my opinion, Olivier Vernet is now first choice.

Why? I compared a couple of pieces on YT with Chapuis and he was clearly better to me.

Does anybody else have a first choice in Bach that isn't Chapuis?

[howie...@btinternet.com]

I don't like Chapuis's Bach much, very unspiritual. I don't like Vernet or Isoir much either, I think they're a bit glib. My first choice in Bach now is probably Werner Jacob.

[christian....@gmail.com]

Den torsdag 27 april 2017 kl. 11:41:34 UTC+2 skrev Andy Evans:
> Does anybody else have a first choice in Bach that isn't Chapuis?

I did like Chapuis, but I have also moved away from him and my favorite set is now Ulf Norberg. Recorded live it’s an uneven series, but he makes the music come alive and feel current again in such a wonderful way. Some favorites…

Organ Concerto in G major, BWV 592: https://youtu.be/eJ78dEmymxs
Trio Sonata No.3 in D minor, BWV 527: https://youtu.be/W9ptTagALOI
Toccata & Fugue in F major, BWV 540: https://youtu.be/KuvZs09lRNg

[Randy Lane]

My preference is strongest for Foccroulle on Ricercar

Well recorded with a decent acoustic atmosphere. Nice interpretive balance between historicity and spirituality.

[howie...@btinternet.com]

That's an interesting comment about Foccroulle, because it makes it sound as though historicity and spirituality aren't complementary, that somehow you should find the right trade off of one for the other. That surely can't be right.

Foccroulle has some very good things I think - CU3, AoF, possibly the Leipzig Chorales. The issue is whether he's too introverted for some of the music.

[howie...@btinternet.com]

I listened the trio sonata. The organ's lovely. The performances have a nice sense of movement forward, attractive registrations. Pretty mainstream, but none the worse for that.

How well the forward motion approach works in the chorales is to be seen I suppose, I thought his BWV 658 was a bit too energetic and maybe the rubato a bit too stiff. But there's a lot to enjoy, I can see that.

[christian....@gmail.com]

I'm with you to the letter - including on the chorales. I didn't like them either. I thought Norberg was at his best in the large-scale, extrovert concert pieces Bach wrote for the instrument, and his Trio sonatas too were really the best I've heard.

The entire series (11 concerts) was videotaped by an organ enthusiast here and large chunks of it can be found on youtube, but I was there too and did my own thing, and my recordings are in better sound than what Anders could do. Three more I really liked:

Prelude & Fugue in C major, BWV 531: https://youtu.be/UHjeZ-DRbz0
Trio Sonata No.6 in G major, BWV 530: https://youtu.be/A9N503VguP0
Prelude & Fugue in C minor, BWV 546: https://youtu.be/Aw2m21YWvj4

[Arno Schuh]

Hi,

the old recording from the GDR label VEB Deutsche Schallplatten, reissued on
Berlin Classics "Bach auf Silbermann-Orgeln" still is one of my favourite
complete sets. Different organists on different Gottfried Silbermann organs.
The technical quality of the recordings itself isn't at the highend side,
but it makes clear why Bach prefered these organs.
The Gerhard Weinberger on CPO (JPC) is pretty good. It hurts that they
forget to record the Pedalexercitium BWV 598 in this box. The organs Gerhard
Weinberger plays are from Bach's contemporaries in organ building, and each
of these organs sounds great.
Another pretty good and cheap box is the Hans Fagius. The reissue on CD on
the Brilliant Classics label as well as the 5 SACDs from BIS itself are well
played and recorded. The organs Hans Fagius uses are old Swedish organs that
sounds really good.

Arno

[Terry]

Here's a second vote for Hans Fagius on BIS. Fagius doesn't put a foot (or a finger) wrong, and the organs, although Swedish, are all from the Northern Germany school of organ building, which I find particularly satisfying, each organ in a very sympathetic acoustic, with splendid speech and colour. Some lovely registrations.

People not "in the know" may query the statement that the set is on 5 CDs, but it's true. BIS have used the SACD layer, which can carry vastly more information than standard CD layers, so each of the CDs runs to well over 4 hours. The quality is excellent. But you need a SACD player.

[howie...@btinternet.com]

Arno Schuh, if you like the sound of Silbermann organs for Bach's music, and you're interested in a more modern performance style than many of the Berlin Classics discs, then I think you may well enjoy Ewald Kooimann's Aeolus recordings.

[Arno Schuh]

I of course have this issue from Aeolus on SACD, too. But the organs Ewald
Kooimann, and after his sudden death, his friends completed box are recorded
on organs of Gottfried Silbermann's uncle Johann Andreas Silbermann in
France. The sound of these organs are quiet different from the Saxonian
Silbermann. And the set is new and pretty expensive compared with the Berlin
Classics, the Fagius on Brilliant or BIS SACD and the Gerhard Weinberger.

Arno

[howie...@btinternet.com]

Yes this is true and in fact I realised that I should have made the same point shortly after I posted.

I played a couple of things from the Berlin Classics recordings yesterday: Otto playing a trio sonata and some of Albrecht's CU 3, the organs are wonderful, and the performances are masterful and exciting, both of them, but somehow they wore out their welcome, I'm not sure why, it could have just been my mood, but it's as if neither Otto nor Albrecht really mine the music for the affects. Too stiff maybe - I know it's organ not harpsichord, but a bit of expressive rubato wouldn't go amiss. Nonetheless organologically they're treasures.

Re the Kooiman, I managed to hear some of earlier Bach recordings for the first time recently. He was very good, such a shame he didn't finish the cycle for Aeolus.

[Arno Schuh]

howie...@btinternet.com wrote:

> Re the Kooiman, I managed to hear some of earlier Bach recordings for
> the first time recently. He was very good, such a shame he didn't
> finish the cycle for Aeolus.

He also recorded an (incomplete) set for Coronata(?) on LP. I am not sure if
it these LPs are completely reissued on CD. However, these Kooiman
recordings are very good, too. Mostly made at historic organs in the
Netherlands, and some on historic organs in Southwest Germany (Hozhey,
Stumm, Gabler?).


I own the complete Bach on LP, too, on the Eterna label (VEB Deutsche
Schallplatten). Unfortunately the studio that made the digital transfer for
Berlin Classics added some reverberance, especially to the recordings at the
small village churches. By request they stated the sound were to dry. :-(
And yes, the playing is very acurate and academic - imho. in this recordings
only the music counts and the organs sounds, and nothing more.

If you like to listen to something absolutely different - try the live
recording Jean Guillou made on his Van den Heuvel in St. Eustache. Great in
its own way.

[wkasimer]

Does anyone have any comments about George Ritchie's set? I saw a copy of his Raven box at a local used store recently at a reasonable price.

[howie...@btinternet.com]

I have only one thing by George Ritchie, the Leipzig Chorales. It's on a couple of Ok American neo baroque organs, not great personalities these organs but it would be a bit unfair to say they are totally faceless. The organs he uses may well be a serious weakness compared with performances that use the best authentic European instruments. The performances are relaxed and comfortable, easy to listen to without being interesting to listen to. I could imagine these Leipzig Chorales being played in an undertaker's waiting room. This is grandpa Bach, sleepy grandpa. It's the musical equivalent of a warm bath. The music needs better than this to make it really come off the page. Stylish if unexceptional registrations. The recording seems alright.

If you get it, I hope you can let me know how the AoF is because it has had astonishingly good reviews. I'm quite tempted by it but so far I've resisted.

[Arno Schuh]

Hi,

and there is another fine set for free from Dr. James Kibbie
http://www.blockmrecords.org/bach/
Well played, right organs and pretty good recorded.

Arno

[howie...@btinternet.com]

You know, these past few weeks I've been listening to the Bach chorales played by "Groningen" organists: Nordstoga, Wiersma, Beek, Beekman. Oh and Kooiman too. And this afternoon I dug out Ritchie. And I think I'm clearer now what one essential difference is - Ritchie simplifies the music, the interaction of the voices and the articulation is less dramatic and less surprising. It reminds me of what Harnoncourt wrote in Music as Speech about how he wanted to jolt the listener, shake up the listener. Well the Dutchmen do that, while Ritchie smooths it out.

The organ makes a big difference, it makes some astonishing, almost disturbing, deep sounds, and the temperament creates some surprising harmonies. I also think the sound of its action is important to the overall texture.

The parishioners complained that Bach's music was too strange and complicated . . .

[wkasimer]

On Tuesday, May 9, 2017 at 10:27:55 AM UTC-4, howie...@btinternet.com wrote:

> If you get it,

Based on your description as "grandpa Bach", I'll probably take a pass....

> I hope you can let me know how the AoF is because it has had astonishingly good reviews.

I don't think that the set includes AoF.

[Haydn House]

On Sunday, November 6, 2016 at 9:18:27 AM UTC-5, Arno Schuh wrote:
> Hi,
>

> the Rübsam set can't be complete in 10 CDs. I own the LP box, and that
> includes more than 20 LPs. And if I am remember that correctly the first CD
> issue of this recordings, including the Kunst der Fuge comes in 16 CDs.
>
> The Isoire box imho. is great. There are some seldom heared organs. And
> especially the little pieces like the Choralvorspiele are really good. One
> or two CDs of them are recorded at the Gabler organ in Weingarten. The sound
> and the playing is fantastic.
> BROINC also offered his Kunst der Fugue. That is also a very fine, colourful
> recording. I would put it into the row of the 10 best organ versions of the
> Kunst der Fuge.
>
> Yours sincerely
>
> Arno

Gabler Organ at Weingarten? This is reason enough to buy teh set immediately!