Fischer-Dieskau: a "real" baritone?
MIFrost
Fischer-Dieskau. F-D always sounds like he's singing at a higher pitch than
anyone else singing the same role. At times he sounds like a tenor. Is this
due to the very smooth timbre of his voice, that honey-toned sound he
produces; or does he, in fact, sing at a higher pitch? I notice this in many
F-D recordings I've heard. Am I alone in this observation?
MIFrost
Richard Loeb
news:46ae85a1$0$29633$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
No he's not singing at a higher pitch but his high baritone could sound
sound "tenorish" - interestingly when Culshaw was casting his Walkure he
considered casting Fischer-Dieskau as Siegmund!!!!!! BTW be prepared for an
onslought of anti-Fischer-Dieskau postings by numbskulls who think he had no
voice at all!! Richard
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in
news:46ae85a1$0$29633$4c36...@roadrunner.com:
I think he's pushing his voice in order to try to be a "Verdi baritone,"
which I think (for him) was a mistake. Mind you, I haven't heard this
recording in decades; but I was very put off by Fi-Di's production here, and
much more so by Lorengar's vibrato (which I have never liked).
The silly answer, of course, would be to suggest that he hadn't gotten around
to taking off the Tarnhelm and was still disguised as Siegfried....
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Tom Deacon is a liar and a scoundrel who cannot hold on to a job.
El Klauso
a bit less in his operatic endeavors. Still, he was one of the great
singers of the 20th Century, with an incredible number of fine
performances and recordings to his credit.
Despite his monumental grasp of repertoire and often extraordinary
insights into vocal literature - and even his conducting, which wasn't
as bad as some might have you believe - DFD wasn't free of flaws.
Often, while attempting to "up" the energy or characterization in a
performance, his pitch tilted a toward the sharp side. (Could it
simply be the excitement of performance driving his pitch higher?)
Coupled with the coloring of his voice for expressive purposes, and
the occasional shaping of his tone to an almost razor sharp point, he
could at times leave the vocal warmth of baritone territory for the
colder climes of a pressurized tenor-like sound.
david...@aol.com
Especially when Fischer-Dieskau was very young, he really did sound
rather like a tenor. His very first Lieder recordings exhibit a sound
quite different from the voice of the ubiquitous Fischer-Dieskau of
the 1960's.
The standard and not entirely unjustified criticism of Fi-Di's Verdi
recordings is that he wasn't a true "Verdi baritone." Verdi's
baritone roles were not written for a light lyric like Fi-Di's but for
a singer with a richer and more ample sound, for a singer with more
power and a higher tessitura than Fi-Di ever really had, however
"tenorisch" his actual timbre. (George Bernard Shaw accused Verdi of
writing for the upper third of the baritone range.) Fischer-Dieskau
increasingly compensated for these limitations as his career unfolded
by hectoring in the loud emphatic passages, crooning in the soft high
ones. Finally, and perhaps most damningly, Fischer-Dieskau was far
more self-conscious in his diction, a far more fussy and mannered
singer, than you normally hear singing Italian opera. Perversely
enough, I love Fi-Di's performance of Rodrigo in Solti's Decca
recording of Don Carlo precisely because, while the intelligence still
shines through, Fi-Di drops much of the fussiness in approximating the
more ingenuous melodramatic and Italianate style of his comrades. By
the law of unintended consequences, and happily in this case, Fi-Di's
preciousness ends up seeming like an integral part of the -- in Fi-
Di's hands -- fussy character when he sings Germont for Maazel. I
actually have more trouble appreciating his Rigoletto in the DG
recording with Scotto, Bergonzi, and Kubelik.
For the record, Fischer-Dieskau made his operatic debut as Rodrigo in
Don Carlo in 1948 in a performance led by his close friend, Ferenc
Fricsay, who was a great champion of Verdi's music. You can hear the
performance on Walhall in a transfer available at Berkshire.
-david gable
david...@aol.com
> Despite his monumental grasp of repertoire and often extraordinary
> insights into vocal literature - and even his conducting, which wasn't
> as bad as some might have you believe - DFD wasn't free of flaws.
Fischer-Dieskau was an absolutely fantastic conductor, and one of the
advantages of his conducting was that you didn't have to put up with
his precious and excessively self-conscious diction when he was
conducting. Fischer-Dieskau only very rarely dropped that cloying
fussiness when he was singing, as he did at moments when he was
singing Papageno or Johann Strauss or Italian opera. He was even so
directly and intensely gripped by what Goethe and Schumann gave him to
do in Schumann's Scenes from Faust that for once you got to hear him
sing Goethe without putting every utterance in quotation marks. But
that was the exception.
-david gable
Dana John Hill
news:46ae85a1$0$29633$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
I'm pretty well tuned to the sound of the lower vocal ranges, but
Fischer-Dieskau never struck me as being unusual except to the extent that
he's unusually good. I recognize that his efforts in some of the Italian
repertoire, particularly Verdi, isn't to everyone's taste. I take it for
what it is: a beautiful lyric voice at the service of a thoughtful musician.
All IMHO, of course. I freely admit that Fischer-Dieskau is among my
favorite voices of all time.
All that said, I have had the opposite impression more often. That is to
say, I have heard recordings of tenors that I could have been certain were
baritones, until they reached a high B natural with little trouble.
--
Dana John Hill
Gainesville, Florida
Andrew T. Kay
wrote:
[...]
> Perversely
> enough, I love Fi-Di's performance of Rodrigo in Solti's Decca
> recording of Don Carlo precisely because, while the intelligence still
> shines through, Fi-Di drops much of the fussiness in approximating the
> more ingenuous melodramatic and Italianate style of his comrades.
At least one of them did not think the approximation successful.
During a session at which one of their shared scenes was recorded (not
sure which of the two), Tebaldi was alleged to have asked someone --
not meanly but in bafflement -- "What is this Fischer-Dieskau
*doing*?"
> I
> actually have more trouble appreciating his Rigoletto in the DG
> recording with Scotto, Bergonzi, and Kubelik.
I can do without most of his attempts at Verdi baritone roles
(although I have mellowed on him in recent years, much in the same way
I have on Schwarzkopf -- I have heard so many singers who give no
evidence of thinking at all, so ones who even have the mental capacity
to overthink and apply affectations earn a level of respect from me),
but not that one. I think his is one of the most moving jesters on
disc. One of the GRAMOPHONE guys summed it up eloquently in a
comparison article not long ago (and were it more convenient for me to
do so, I would track the thing down so I could credit him by name;
maybe later) -- there are times in the set when Fi-Di's portrayal
communicates not just horror but a haunting *numbness*, as if
unspeakable horror is still setting in. To that I would end that he's
absolutely wonderful in the first duet with Scotto, as tender a
paternal figure as I have ever heard in that part. But I like almost
everything about that set. Even the Maddalena is stunning.
Todd K
david...@aol.com
> At least one of [the other singers in the Solti Don Carlo on Decca] did not think the
> approximation [of an Italianate Rodrigo from Fi-Di] successful.
> During a session at which one of their shared scenes was recorded (not
> sure which of the two), Tebaldi was alleged to have asked someone --
> not meanly but in bafflement -- "What is this Fischer-Dieskau
> *doing*?"
The way I heard the story it was even funnier than that. I don't
think she quite realized who he was, and she mangled his name with a
heavy Italian accent. (I wish I could find exactly what she said,
assuming that I'm right and assuming that this actually happened at
all.)
-david gable
JJ
news:XuOdnV4J3JWPFzPb...@comcast.com:
I remember reading an interview with Nicolai Gedda where he discussed
Die Fledermaus and the role of Eisenstein which he felt was more suited
to a tenor than a baritone. He told of the recording sessions for
Klemperer's St. Matthew Passion in which Fischer-Dieskau sang Jesus.
Klemperer kept interrupting Fischer-Dieskau to say "Herr Fieskau" (Gedda
said Klemperer loved to mangle Fi-Di's name to deflate his ego) "Your
sound is too tenorish. You would make a perfect Eisenstein!"
Jon
Jon Alan Conrad
wrote:
> > During a session at which one of their shared scenes was recorded (not
> > sure which of the two), Tebaldi was alleged to have asked someone --
> > not meanly but in bafflement -- "What is this Fischer-Dieskau
> > *doing*?"
> The way I heard the story it was even funnier than that. I don't
> think she quite realized who he was, and she mangled his name with a
> heavy Italian accent. (I wish I could find exactly what she said,
> assuming that I'm right and assuming that this actually happened at
> all.)
The version I read (never mind how someone could have overheard this
to report it) is that Tebaldi asked Bergonzi in bafflement -- and
apologies for messing up the vowel endings in a language I've not
studied -- "Ma, que *fa* questo Discher-Fieskau??"
(By the way, my answer to the original question is that the "problem"
stems from, in an odd way, a good cause: Not having the expected rich
dark baritone for the role of Germont, F-D doesn't try to imitate that
sound but sings the role with his own voice without manipulation to
[try to] make it sound heavier; so it's a lighter, headier, more tenor-
like approach than most, although I believe that there was a German
tradition of casting a Kavalierbariton like him or Prey or Huesch in
the role.)
JAC
Sacqueboutier
He had a rather light voice, thus giving the OP's impression.
His stock in trade was German lieder, but was drafted into
recording opera (albeit willingly).
I still think his is the best Pizarro (from Fidelio) on record.
--
--
Kindest regards,
Don
Bob Harper
Harold in Italy, but I'm not sure what else there is. Anybody have (or
know of) a F-D discography as conductor? And more importantly, what's
currently available?
Bob Harper
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:xoydnUFIi_W1yzLb...@comcast.com:
> I know that F-D recorded the Schumann 3rd, Brahms 4th, and Berlioz'
> Harold in Italy, but I'm not sure what else there is. Anybody have (or
> know of) a F-D discography as conductor? And more importantly, what's
> currently available?
Also Schumann 2nd and "Manfred" Overture; this and the 3rd were on BASF
LPs. For EMI he recorded the Schumann Piano Concerto and one of the other
concertante works with Barenboim as soloist (reversing their usual
partnership), and Schubert's 5th and 8th. (This means that, at least back
in the LP days, I had recordings of that Schubert coupling conducted by
Fischer-Dieskau and by Peter Schreier. Ook ook.)
The Brahms and Berlioz items were, of course, with the Czech Philharmonic
on Supraphon, and the violist was Josef Suk. The Brahms has never been
reissued on CD, at least to my knowledge.
There are some more recent recordings on Orfeo, including a CD of Wagner
excerpts with his wife Julia Varady and a tenor I can't recall.
wkasimer
> There are some more recent recordings on Orfeo, including a CD of Wagner
> excerpts with his wife Julia Varady and a tenor I can't recall.
Peter Seiffert.
There's also a recording of Fischer-Dieskau *conducting* Mahler's Das
Lied von der Erde, on Orfeo d'Or.
Bill
Dana John Hill
news:xoydnUFIi_W1yzLb...@comcast.com...
> I know that F-D recorded the Schumann 3rd, Brahms 4th, and Berlioz' Harold
> in Italy, but I'm not sure what else there is. Anybody have (or know of) a
> F-D discography as conductor? And more importantly, what's currently
> available?
There is also an disc of interesting orchestral music of Hugo Wolf. I am
about to auction off my copy, as the same recordings were bundled together
in an EMI box of Wolf lieder sung by Fischer-Dieskau.
--
Dana John Hill
Gainesville, Florida
Richard Loeb
news:yvWdnWZgPsBfdDLb...@giganews.com...
really in full force - the songs are so dense, so concentrated that a
general "atmospheric" rendition can rapidly produce boredom. But his talent
for getting into each emotion, each syllable produces wonderfully rewarding
results. I must also say that some of his Schubert lieder from the early 60s
are among the most beautiful things I have ever heard. "Du bist die Ruh"
"Die Forelle" the whole 1961 Schone Mullerin - they are so ingrained in my
mind that its sometimes (unfairly) hard to accept some others. Richard
david...@aol.com
> It's particularly in the songs of Wolf that Fischer-Dieskau's artistry is
> really in full force - the songs are so dense, so concentrated that a
> general "atmospheric" rendition can rapidly produce boredom. But his talent
> for getting into each emotion, each syllable produces wonderfully rewarding
> results. I must also say that some of his Schubert lieder from the early 60s
> are among the most beautiful things I have ever heard. "Du bist die Ruh"
> "Die Forelle" the whole 1961 Schone Mullerin - they are so ingrained in my
> mind that its sometimes (unfairly) hard to accept some others. Richard
Here you rightly make a distinction between Hugo Wolf's songs and
earlier German Lieder, suggesting that Wolf's stem not only from a
later but from a more self-conscious stage in the history of the
genre: Hugo Wolf is as distinct from Schubert as Rosenkavalier is
from Figaro. The last thing I ever want to hear is the fussy and self-
conscious approach to Schubert for which there may be somewhat greater
justification in the case of Wolf. It was Lotte Lehmann who made the
first steps down the path toward the excessively "knowing" approach to
Schubert. With Fischer-Dieskau and especially Schwarzkopf it becomes
intolerable.
Schubert should be sung ingenuously, not self-consciously. Schubert's
songs should be sung with a form of direct expression, not placed
between quotation marks. Of course Schubert's songs are sophisticated
works of art, but they belong to the tradition of pastoral: in the
pastoral poems that gave this tradition its name, innocent shepherds
uttered truths the profundity of which they were unaware. We find the
same lonely shepherds, fishermen, boatmen, and comparable figures in
the early Romantic poems that Schubert chose to set.
Fischer-Dieskau and Schwarzkopf flatter the listener, winking at him
or her: "We know, don't we? WE'RE aware." This is by no means the
only approach to this repertory possible in the hands of an
intelligent singer. All you have to do is to turn to such consummate
masters and mistresses of the "artless" approach as Victoria de los
Angeles and Petre Munteanu. For all of Fischer-Dieskau's undeniable
musicality, there is a thousand times more artistry in their singing
than in the layers upon layers of self-conscious artifice in the
performances of Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau and especially Elisabeth
Schwarzkopf.
-david gable
Simon Roberts
says...
>
>Bob Harper <bob.h...@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following
>letters to be typed in news:xoydnUFIi_W1yzLb...@comcast.com:
>
>> I know that F-D recorded the Schumann 3rd, Brahms 4th, and Berlioz'
>> Harold in Italy, but I'm not sure what else there is. Anybody have (or
>> know of) a F-D discography as conductor? And more importantly, what's
>> currently available?
>
>Also Schumann 2nd and "Manfred" Overture; this and the 3rd were on BASF
>LPs. For EMI he recorded the Schumann Piano Concerto and one of the other
>concertante works with Barenboim as soloist (reversing their usual
>partnership), and Schubert's 5th and 8th. (This means that, at least back
>in the LP days, I had recordings of that Schubert coupling conducted by
>Fischer-Dieskau and by Peter Schreier. Ook ook.)
>
>The Brahms and Berlioz items were, of course, with the Czech Philharmonic
>on Supraphon, and the violist was Josef Suk. The Brahms has never been
>reissued on CD, at least to my knowledge.
It was briefly on CD in the late 1980s, which is when I bought a copy. I forget
the exact name of the label (I'm nowhere near the disc at present); Supraphonet,
or Crystal, or something (not an official Supraphon release, which may be why it
didn't last long).
Simon
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:f8q9p...@drn.newsguy.com:
There was a "Crystal Collection" series on Supraphon, but they (or their
distributor) got sued by Peter Christ, who thinks he owns the name
"Crystal" and is the only person who has ever used it "Crystal" for a
product. I guess he should shake hands with Spike Lee, who thinks he owns
the word "Spike." (I think the heirs of Lindley Armstrong Jones, among
others, had something to say about that.)
Bob Lombard
news:Xns997F5B67669...@216.168.3.70...
> Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:f8q9p...@drn.newsguy.com:
>
>> In article <Xns997E5A26DA1...@207.217.125.201>,
>> Matthew B. Tepper says...
>>>
>
> distributor) got sued by Peter Christ, who thinks he owns the name
> "Crystal" and is the only person who has ever used it "Crystal" for a
> product. I guess he should shake hands with Spike Lee, who thinks he owns
> the word "Spike." (I think the heirs of Lindley Armstrong Jones, among
> others, had something to say about that.)
>
> --
> Matthew B. Tepper:
----------
Crystal mouthpieces for clarinet, eh?
bl
