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The Solti Mahler Cycle
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Rich
Jun 6, 2012, 1:18:36 AM6/6/12
to
As Solti 100 is just around the corner, I'd like to know the current
opinions about GS's Chicago Mahler cycle. Symphonies 6 and 7 from
that box are available as MP3 downloads at a very reasonable price on
Amazon. (The London M9 is even cheaper). Dave Hurwitz didn't think
too highly of the Chicago set. In this group there's a generally
positive reaction to the first recording of the Mahler 5th, but I
sense that many listeners write that record off as a showpiece for the
CSO, and nothing more. The 8th used to be a reference recording, but
there have been so many 8ths after it, that no one pays much attention
to that old classic. Regarding the Solti sound, here's a quote from
Joseph Horowitz " In 1978 at Carnegie Hall, Georg Solti and the CSO,
then at the peak of their joint celebrity, gave an unusually loud
performance of the Brahms's First Symphony. The strings, in
particular, thrust forward great sheets of sound in order to hold
their own with the winds and percussion. The effect was uncanny, as if
someone had turned a knob to obtain a uniform increase in volume.
Nearly as odd was the sound's texture with each orchestral choir cold,
forward and discrete. Rather than mingling or diffusing, the
instrumental components of Brahms's First clamped into place like
precision-tooled parts. Solti's interpretation was neutral with
regard to tempo and articulation, except where the accents seemed
exaggerated or the "lyric" phrasings peculiarly musclebound. Mainly
the high-powered exterior was distinctive-that and the machinelike
vigor and accuracy with which it was pounded out." Personally I
think this is going too far..but I've read similar criticisms here of
Solti's Mahler, Wagner and Beethoven. Perhaps a remastering of the the
Mahler cycle will change people's opinions...
Rich
opinions about GS's Chicago Mahler cycle. Symphonies 6 and 7 from
that box are available as MP3 downloads at a very reasonable price on
Amazon. (The London M9 is even cheaper). Dave Hurwitz didn't think
too highly of the Chicago set. In this group there's a generally
positive reaction to the first recording of the Mahler 5th, but I
sense that many listeners write that record off as a showpiece for the
CSO, and nothing more. The 8th used to be a reference recording, but
there have been so many 8ths after it, that no one pays much attention
to that old classic. Regarding the Solti sound, here's a quote from
Joseph Horowitz " In 1978 at Carnegie Hall, Georg Solti and the CSO,
then at the peak of their joint celebrity, gave an unusually loud
performance of the Brahms's First Symphony. The strings, in
particular, thrust forward great sheets of sound in order to hold
their own with the winds and percussion. The effect was uncanny, as if
someone had turned a knob to obtain a uniform increase in volume.
Nearly as odd was the sound's texture with each orchestral choir cold,
forward and discrete. Rather than mingling or diffusing, the
instrumental components of Brahms's First clamped into place like
precision-tooled parts. Solti's interpretation was neutral with
regard to tempo and articulation, except where the accents seemed
exaggerated or the "lyric" phrasings peculiarly musclebound. Mainly
the high-powered exterior was distinctive-that and the machinelike
vigor and accuracy with which it was pounded out." Personally I
think this is going too far..but I've read similar criticisms here of
Solti's Mahler, Wagner and Beethoven. Perhaps a remastering of the the
Mahler cycle will change people's opinions...
Rich
Ray Hall
Jun 6, 2012, 2:29:41 AM6/6/12
to
Ray Hall, Taree
Gerard
Jun 6, 2012, 2:59:35 AM6/6/12
to
Rich <chon...@comcast.net> typed:
> exaggerated or the "lyric" phrasings peculiarly musclebound. Mainly
> the high-powered exterior was distinctive-that and the machinelike
> vigor and accuracy with which it was pounded out." Personally I
> think this is going too far..but I've read similar criticisms here of
> Solti's Mahler, Wagner and Beethoven. Perhaps a remastering of the the
> Mahler cycle will change people's opinions...
>
Is there any remastering involved? And why would it change opinions?
> exaggerated or the "lyric" phrasings peculiarly musclebound. Mainly
> the high-powered exterior was distinctive-that and the machinelike
> vigor and accuracy with which it was pounded out." Personally I
> think this is going too far..but I've read similar criticisms here of
> Solti's Mahler, Wagner and Beethoven. Perhaps a remastering of the the
> Mahler cycle will change people's opinions...
>
Terry
Jun 6, 2012, 4:27:32 AM6/6/12
to
have been applied to the Decca recording of the same piece, that must have
been made at about the same time. That is a superb recording, and indicates
that Solti was a very fine Brahms conductor indeed. These seems to be a lot
of people lining up to take cheap shots at Solti at the moment. I hope it
will subside soon and allow a more level-headed appraisal of his recorded
output.
--
Cheers, Terry
Matthew Silverstein
Jun 6, 2012, 4:59:13 AM6/6/12
to
On Tue, 5 Jun 2012 22:18:36 -0700 (PDT), Rich wrote:
[snip]
Obviously I can't speak for everyone, but I wouldn't want to be without
Solti's recordings of M5, M6, and M8.
Matty
[snip]
Obviously I can't speak for everyone, but I wouldn't want to be without
Solti's recordings of M5, M6, and M8.
Matty
O
Jun 6, 2012, 10:31:50 AM6/6/12
to
In article
<7d6395f9-56e7-4532...@nl1g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,
Back in the 70's when Mahler was fresh and new, there was a lot of
anticipation of Solti's newest releases, particularly as three
conductors (Solti, Tennstedt, and Bernstein) were leapfrogging each
other in new releases of their Mahler series. I seem to recall that
the set was the most highly regarded at the time of completion, but,
clearly, Solti's star has fallen since his death in the public eye.
Not only his Mahler, but most of his repertoire seems to be less highly
regarded as when he was alive (lots of Grammy awards undoubtedly helped
his image as well). Of course, with all the Mahler choices out there
now, in much better recorded sound, and with the benefit of all the
previous experience in Mahler performances. In fact, I would say that
Solti's has been far eclipsed by Tennstedt's and Bernstein's series.
-Owen
<7d6395f9-56e7-4532...@nl1g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,
anticipation of Solti's newest releases, particularly as three
conductors (Solti, Tennstedt, and Bernstein) were leapfrogging each
other in new releases of their Mahler series. I seem to recall that
the set was the most highly regarded at the time of completion, but,
clearly, Solti's star has fallen since his death in the public eye.
Not only his Mahler, but most of his repertoire seems to be less highly
regarded as when he was alive (lots of Grammy awards undoubtedly helped
his image as well). Of course, with all the Mahler choices out there
now, in much better recorded sound, and with the benefit of all the
previous experience in Mahler performances. In fact, I would say that
Solti's has been far eclipsed by Tennstedt's and Bernstein's series.
-Owen
Randy Lane
Jun 6, 2012, 10:47:34 AM6/6/12
to
> Obviously I can't speak for everyone, but I wouldn't want to be without
> Solti's recordings of M5, M6, and M8.
>
> Matty
I agree.
> Solti's recordings of M5, M6, and M8.
>
> Matty
I have not heard any of his Mahler recordings that I would classify as
dissappointing. I am just not as compelled to return them (other than
the same symphonies you list) as much as I am to other renditions.
I do wish Universal would put together a complete recordings
collection in honor of Solti, who would turn 100 on October 21 this
year.
Rich
Jun 6, 2012, 11:16:57 AM6/6/12
to
other than that, I haven't heard anything about a big box.
Rich
Mark S
Jun 6, 2012, 2:08:18 PM6/6/12
to
On Jun 6, 8:16 am, Rich <chongk...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> I know that the Solti Ring will be remastered for the 100th birthday-
> other than that, I haven't heard anything about a big box.
>
> Rich
But I thought we already had a perfect remastering the last time
>
> I know that the Solti Ring will be remastered for the 100th birthday-
> other than that, I haven't heard anything about a big box.
>
> Rich
around.
I think the only thing that could get me to purchase another remaster
of the Solti Ring would be if Decca got creative and decided to issue
the 1951 (?) Ring they recorded at Bayreuth with Kna.
wkasimer
Jun 6, 2012, 2:13:05 PM6/6/12
to
On Jun 6, 11:16 am, Rich <chongk...@comcast.net> wrote:
> I know that the Solti Ring will be remastered for the 100th birthday-
For SACD? Otherwise, it's entirely unnecessary.
> I know that the Solti Ring will be remastered for the 100th birthday-
Bill
Gerard
Jun 6, 2012, 3:25:01 PM6/6/12
to
O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> typed:
recording Mahler those days, together with - but a little later than -
Bernstein. Solti's recordings came later as well (70's and 80's).
>
> I seem to recall that
> the set was the most highly regarded at the time of completion, but,
> clearly, Solti's star has fallen since his death in the public eye.
> Not only his Mahler, but most of his repertoire seems to be less
> highly regarded as when he was alive (lots of Grammy awards
> undoubtedly helped his image as well). Of course, with all the
> Mahler choices out there now, in much better recorded sound, and with
> the benefit of all the previous experience in Mahler performances.
> In fact, I would say that Solti's has been far eclipsed by
> Tennstedt's and Bernstein's series.
I've never warmed to that series by Tennstedt.
>
> Back in the 70's when Mahler was fresh and new, there was a lot of
> anticipation of Solti's newest releases, particularly as three
> conductors (Solti, Tennstedt, and Bernstein) were leapfrogging each
> other in new releases of their Mahler series.
IIRC Tennstedt came later (late 70's and during the 80's), while Haitink was
> Back in the 70's when Mahler was fresh and new, there was a lot of
> anticipation of Solti's newest releases, particularly as three
> conductors (Solti, Tennstedt, and Bernstein) were leapfrogging each
> other in new releases of their Mahler series.
recording Mahler those days, together with - but a little later than -
Bernstein. Solti's recordings came later as well (70's and 80's).
>
> I seem to recall that
> the set was the most highly regarded at the time of completion, but,
> clearly, Solti's star has fallen since his death in the public eye.
> Not only his Mahler, but most of his repertoire seems to be less
> highly regarded as when he was alive (lots of Grammy awards
> undoubtedly helped his image as well). Of course, with all the
> Mahler choices out there now, in much better recorded sound, and with
> the benefit of all the previous experience in Mahler performances.
> In fact, I would say that Solti's has been far eclipsed by
> Tennstedt's and Bernstein's series.
Randy Lane
Jun 6, 2012, 3:30:52 PM6/6/12
to
> > Back in the 70's when Mahler was fresh and new, there was a lot of
> > anticipation of Solti's newest releases, particularly as three
> > conductors (Solti, Tennstedt, and Bernstein) were leapfrogging each
> > other in new releases of their Mahler series.
>
> IIRC Tennstedt came later (late 70's and during the 80's), while Haitink was
> recording Mahler those days, together with - but a little later than -
> Bernstein. Solti's recordings came later as well (70's and 80's).
>
Weren't Kubelik and Abravanel producing their Mahler legacies at about
> > anticipation of Solti's newest releases, particularly as three
> > conductors (Solti, Tennstedt, and Bernstein) were leapfrogging each
> > other in new releases of their Mahler series.
>
> IIRC Tennstedt came later (late 70's and during the 80's), while Haitink was
> recording Mahler those days, together with - but a little later than -
> Bernstein. Solti's recordings came later as well (70's and 80's).
>
the same time too?
Gerard
Jun 6, 2012, 3:46:08 PM6/6/12
to
Randy Lane <randy...@gmail.com> typed:
Abravanel.
And Klemperer recorded some symphonies.
It looked like people (conductors, producers) had been waiting until everyone
(the buyers) had stereo equipment.
> > > Back in the 70's when Mahler was fresh and new, there was a lot of
> > > anticipation of Solti's newest releases, particularly as three
> > > conductors (Solti, Tennstedt, and Bernstein) were leapfrogging
> > > each other in new releases of their Mahler series.
> >
> > IIRC Tennstedt came later (late 70's and during the 80's), while
> > Haitink was recording Mahler those days, together with - but a
> > little later than - Bernstein. Solti's recordings came later as
> > well (70's and 80's).
> >
>
> Weren't Kubelik and Abravanel producing their Mahler legacies at about
> the same time too?
>
Right. I think Kubelik was somewhat earlier than Bernstein. Don't know about
> > > anticipation of Solti's newest releases, particularly as three
> > > conductors (Solti, Tennstedt, and Bernstein) were leapfrogging
> > > each other in new releases of their Mahler series.
> >
> > IIRC Tennstedt came later (late 70's and during the 80's), while
> > Haitink was recording Mahler those days, together with - but a
> > little later than - Bernstein. Solti's recordings came later as
> > well (70's and 80's).
> >
>
> Weren't Kubelik and Abravanel producing their Mahler legacies at about
> the same time too?
>
Abravanel.
And Klemperer recorded some symphonies.
It looked like people (conductors, producers) had been waiting until everyone
(the buyers) had stereo equipment.
Bob Harper
Jun 6, 2012, 4:22:32 PM6/6/12
to
5-7 w/LPO) have an electricity he didn't seem to generate in the
studio. I've not heard the live 2 and 8, but wouldn't be surprised if
the same proved true.
Bob Harper
Rich
Jun 6, 2012, 4:27:47 PM6/6/12
to
This year, for the centennial of Solti’s birth (October 21, 1912),
Decca will release a newly remastered 14-CD set that will wind up
under the holiday trees of most Wagnerites. I also recommend the
fascinating book, “Ring Resounding” by Decca producer John Culshaw
about how these recordings were created.
Solti brought similar fleetness and drama to operas by Mozart, Verdi,
Strauss and other Wagner operas. Listen to his orchestral playing on
his recordings of Tannhauser and Lohengrin and it is hard to listen to
anyone else, even if not every singer was ideal for their roles. I
hope these are among the operas getting new releases in honor of the
centennial. I believe that Solti’s amazing Mozart and Strauss
performances are set for re-release. His da Ponte operas (Le Nozze di
Figaro, Don Giovanni, Così fan tutte) are elegant and vibrant while
Elektra (with Birgit Nilsson) is breathtaking. These will be among the
100 recordings that Decca will release in new editions in September
Robert Pecchioni
Jun 6, 2012, 5:59:19 PM6/6/12
to
>Tennstedt's live performances (1 w/CSO, 4 w/ CSO/Auger (download), and
>5-7 w/LPO) have an electricity he didn't seem to generate in the
>studio. I've not heard the live 2 and 8, but wouldn't be surprised if
>the same proved true.
Bob Harper
a sublime "Oh mensch! Gib acht!" from Ortrun Wenkel, and a deeply moving
performance overall. After my cassette player died, I picked up a studio
recording CD -- blah! Hard to believe it was the same conductor.
wagnerfan
Jun 6, 2012, 6:08:17 PM6/6/12
to
I assume you already have the 51 Gott with Kna from Bayreuth. Wagner
Fan
Richard S. Sandmeyer
Jun 6, 2012, 6:55:08 PM6/6/12
to
In article <71f06$4fcfb367$5356543a$14...@cache100.multikabel.net>,
AFAIK, there were five Mahler cycles completed in the 60s and 70s.
Bernstein's first cycle, the one on Sony with NYPO (LSO in #8) was the
first stereo cycle completed (in late 60s), but not by much. Haitink,
Kubelik, Abravanel, and Solti had all started cycles before Bernstein's
was finished, and all finished their cycles in the 1970s.
BTW, I don't think Solti ever recorded #10 (either the adagio or one of
the reconstructions), so I suppose one could argue that his cycle is not
really complete.
Tennstedt's cycle (along with others by Inbal, Sinopoli, Abbado,
Chailly, Tilson Thomas, de Waart, Bertini, Gielen, Rattle, and probably
others I'm forgetting) started after the five mentioned above were
completed.
--
Rich Sandmeyer
rich dot sand at verizon dot net
Bernstein's first cycle, the one on Sony with NYPO (LSO in #8) was the
first stereo cycle completed (in late 60s), but not by much. Haitink,
Kubelik, Abravanel, and Solti had all started cycles before Bernstein's
was finished, and all finished their cycles in the 1970s.
BTW, I don't think Solti ever recorded #10 (either the adagio or one of
the reconstructions), so I suppose one could argue that his cycle is not
really complete.
Tennstedt's cycle (along with others by Inbal, Sinopoli, Abbado,
Chailly, Tilson Thomas, de Waart, Bertini, Gielen, Rattle, and probably
others I'm forgetting) started after the five mentioned above were
completed.
--
Rich Sandmeyer
rich dot sand at verizon dot net
operafan
Jun 6, 2012, 10:50:55 PM6/6/12
to
M2 has excellent sound, too.
operafan
Jun 6, 2012, 10:50:01 PM6/6/12
to
On Jun 6, 3:25 pm, "Gerard" <ghendriks-nospam...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I've never warmed to that series by Tennstedt.
His EMI studio recordings give a poor idea of Tennstedt's Mahler. I
> I've never warmed to that series by Tennstedt.
heard Tennstedt conduct Mahler 7 and 9 live in Cleveland--
unforgettable performances. All of the live recordings of his Mahler
are much, much, better--for example the LPO recording (on LPO Live) of
Mahler 2.
Matthew B. Tepper
Jun 6, 2012, 11:51:12 PM6/6/12
to
"Robert Pecchioni" <rpecc...@cox.net> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in news:jqojrl$mqu$1...@speranza.aioe.org:
>>Tennstedt's live performances (1 w/CSO, 4 w/ CSO/Auger (download), and
>>5-7 w/LPO) have an electricity he didn't seem to generate in the
>>studio. I've not heard the live 2 and 8, but wouldn't be surprised if
>>the same proved true.
>
was a very moving performance, particularly from Wenkel; I almost thought she
was singing it especially for me.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
following letters to be typed in news:jqojrl$mqu$1...@speranza.aioe.org:
>>Tennstedt's live performances (1 w/CSO, 4 w/ CSO/Auger (download), and
>>5-7 w/LPO) have an electricity he didn't seem to generate in the
>>studio. I've not heard the live 2 and 8, but wouldn't be surprised if
>>the same proved true.
>
> My experience as well. I have an air check cassette of the Mahler 3, with
> a sublime "Oh mensch! Gib acht!" from Ortrun Wenkel, and a deeply moving
> performance overall. After my cassette player died, I picked up a studio
> recording CD -- blah! Hard to believe it was the same conductor.
I attended one of his 1981 (I think) performances of M3 in Minneapolis. It
> a sublime "Oh mensch! Gib acht!" from Ortrun Wenkel, and a deeply moving
> performance overall. After my cassette player died, I picked up a studio
> recording CD -- blah! Hard to believe it was the same conductor.
was a very moving performance, particularly from Wenkel; I almost thought she
was singing it especially for me.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
jrsnfld
Jun 7, 2012, 12:05:22 AM6/7/12
to
On Jun 6, 10:31 am, O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
> In article
> <7d6395f9-56e7-4532-9d93-a7e55b1e9...@nl1g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,
It's not really correct to say that Bernstein's cycle eclipsed
Solti's, unless you're talking about the later DG cycle.
Solti started his CSO cycle after Bernstein's cycle for Columbia was
finished.
Solti did record some Mahler earlier, with the LSO and the
Concertgebouw. But these are not considered by Decca as part of his
complete cycle (I don't think they were ever lumped into a box with
the CSO recordings that started in 1969 or thereabouts).
--Jeff
> In article
> <7d6395f9-56e7-4532-9d93-a7e55b1e9...@nl1g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,
Solti's, unless you're talking about the later DG cycle.
Solti started his CSO cycle after Bernstein's cycle for Columbia was
finished.
Solti did record some Mahler earlier, with the LSO and the
Concertgebouw. But these are not considered by Decca as part of his
complete cycle (I don't think they were ever lumped into a box with
the CSO recordings that started in 1969 or thereabouts).
--Jeff
jrsnfld
Jun 7, 2012, 12:11:34 AM6/7/12
to
On Jun 6, 4:27 pm, Rich <chongk...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> From Fred Plotkin:
>
Who's he?
> This year, for the centennial of Solti’s birth (October 21, 1912),
> Decca will release a newly remastered 14-CD set that will wind up
> under the holiday trees of most Wagnerites.
Why would any Wagnerite want a copy of this recording for Christmas?
They undoubtedly already have it!
--Jeff
>
>
>
> From Fred Plotkin:
>
Who's he?
> This year, for the centennial of Solti’s birth (October 21, 1912),
> Decca will release a newly remastered 14-CD set that will wind up
> under the holiday trees of most Wagnerites.
They undoubtedly already have it!
--Jeff
>
>
herman
Jun 7, 2012, 2:57:36 AM6/7/12
to
On 7 juin, 06:11, jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > This year, for the centennial of Solti’s birth (October 21, 1912),
> > Decca will release a newly remastered 14-CD set that will wind up
> > under the holiday trees of most Wagnerites.
>
> Why would any Wagnerite want a copy of this recording for Christmas?
> They undoubtedly already have it!
>
> --Jeff
>
And what are those "holiday" trees supposed to do with those CDs?
>
> > This year, for the centennial of Solti’s birth (October 21, 1912),
> > Decca will release a newly remastered 14-CD set that will wind up
> > under the holiday trees of most Wagnerites.
>
> Why would any Wagnerite want a copy of this recording for Christmas?
> They undoubtedly already have it!
>
> --Jeff
>
Is this some kind of new extra-special fertilizer? A new market for
the CD industry?
And why Wagner?
Mozart's supposed to be good for babies. And Wagner for trees?
That would explain a lot.
O
Jun 7, 2012, 11:12:49 AM6/7/12
to
In article
<c68fcfee-5e24-423e...@b21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
it used to. Sorry for the confusion.
comparing the three sets, so I'm sure your chronology is much better
than my poor memory.
-Owen
<c68fcfee-5e24-423e...@b21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
jrsnfld <jrs...@aol.com> wrote:
> > Back in the 70's when Mahler was fresh and new, there was a lot of
> > anticipation of Solti's newest releases, particularly as three
> > conductors (Solti, Tennstedt, and Bernstein) were leapfrogging each
> > other in new releases of their Mahler series. I seem to recall that
> > the set was the most highly regarded at the time of completion, but,
> > clearly, Solti's star has fallen since his death in the public eye.
> > Not only his Mahler, but most of his repertoire seems to be less highly
> > regarded as when he was alive (lots of Grammy awards undoubtedly helped
> > his image as well). Of course, with all the Mahler choices out there
> > now, in much better recorded sound, and with the benefit of all the
> > previous experience in Mahler performances. In fact, I would say that
> > Solti's has been far eclipsed by Tennstedt's and Bernstein's series.
> >
> > -Owen
>
> It's not really correct to say that Bernstein's cycle eclipsed
> Solti's, unless you're talking about the later DG cycle.
My meaning of "eclipsed" was that more that it has not had the demand
> > Back in the 70's when Mahler was fresh and new, there was a lot of
> > anticipation of Solti's newest releases, particularly as three
> > conductors (Solti, Tennstedt, and Bernstein) were leapfrogging each
> > other in new releases of their Mahler series. I seem to recall that
> > the set was the most highly regarded at the time of completion, but,
> > clearly, Solti's star has fallen since his death in the public eye.
> > Not only his Mahler, but most of his repertoire seems to be less highly
> > regarded as when he was alive (lots of Grammy awards undoubtedly helped
> > his image as well). Of course, with all the Mahler choices out there
> > now, in much better recorded sound, and with the benefit of all the
> > previous experience in Mahler performances. In fact, I would say that
> > Solti's has been far eclipsed by Tennstedt's and Bernstein's series.
> >
> > -Owen
>
> It's not really correct to say that Bernstein's cycle eclipsed
> Solti's, unless you're talking about the later DG cycle.
it used to. Sorry for the confusion.
>
> Solti started his CSO cycle after Bernstein's cycle for Columbia was
> finished.
I'm remembering Stereo Review and High Fidelity reviews from the time
> Solti started his CSO cycle after Bernstein's cycle for Columbia was
> finished.
comparing the three sets, so I'm sure your chronology is much better
than my poor memory.
>
> Solti did record some Mahler earlier, with the LSO and the
> Concertgebouw. But these are not considered by Decca as part of his
> complete cycle (I don't think they were ever lumped into a box with
> the CSO recordings that started in 1969 or thereabouts).
Thanks for clearing up the release dates.
> Solti did record some Mahler earlier, with the LSO and the
> Concertgebouw. But these are not considered by Decca as part of his
> complete cycle (I don't think they were ever lumped into a box with
> the CSO recordings that started in 1969 or thereabouts).
-Owen
Mark S
Jun 7, 2012, 12:35:49 PM6/7/12
to
selling them for $9 a foot, what Wagner opera is that?
scroll down for answer
keep scrolling
A: Tree stand undersold
O
Jun 7, 2012, 12:56:57 PM6/7/12
to
In article
<23081627-e75b-4cb9...@n9g2000pbi.googlegroups.com>,
If you try to tell this joke again, we'll have Gerard turn you into the
Flying Dutchman.
-Owen
<23081627-e75b-4cb9...@n9g2000pbi.googlegroups.com>,
Flying Dutchman.
-Owen
Matthew B. Tepper
Jun 7, 2012, 3:30:20 PM6/7/12
to
Mark S <markst...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:23081627-e75b-4cb9-afd3-4ec716355de6
@n9g2000pbi.googlegroups.com:
> If I'm selling Xmas trees for $10 a foot and my biggest competitor is
> selling them for $9 a foot, what Wagner opera is that?
>
>
>
> scroll down for answer
>
>
>
>
>
>
> keep scrolling
>
>
>
>
> A: Tree stand undersold
Grendel Briarton (the anagrammatic pseudonym of Reginald Bretnor) got there
long ago:
Through Time and Space with Ferdinand Feghoot
It was because of Ferdinand Feghoot that the great composer Richard Wagner
found himself under arrest on the planet Madama Butterfry in the year 5735.
Feghoot had told him of the planet whose inhabitants claimed that every
opera theme had been stolen from them. "Vhat!" cried Wagner. "Only Teutonic
ideas are good for grand opera! Vhere is this planet? Come, ve take your
space-time machine. I vill show you!"
Upon their arrival, they went through customs, where they were ordered to
declare any arias, operas, etc. Wagner sneeringly gave them a list.
Immediately he was arrested and charged with grand theft. "This is an
outrage! Vhat themes could I possibly have stolen from you?" demanded
Wagner, and the officer offered to give them a tour.
First, they came upon a vendor camped beneath a tree. His sign announced,
"Root Bottom Stanley! Best deals in the galaxy! Absolutely no being in the
universe undersells me! Garfinkels, $2 each." Nearby was a modest stand
manned by a mole-like person. His sign said simply, "Garfinkels, 6 for a
dollar."
"Vhat does this have to do with me?" said Wagner. Ferdinand Feghoot
replied, "Tree Stan Undersold."
Next, they moved on to a storage shed filled with jars of fruits,
preserves, and so on. A thin rubbery organism grasped the opening of one
jar, crying out in a thin plaintive voice, "Please, can't I have some jam?
Please, just a taste? Oh, how I long for it!"
"Doubtless," said Feghoot before anyone could speak, "This is the Nibble-
Longing Lid."
Finally, the travelers were taken to a dock where a frog-like creature sat
trapping shellfish. His topknot glowed fitfully, barely visible in the
evening twilight. Mournfully, he kept to his task.
Wagner flew into a rage. "Vhat rubbish! Vhat could this possibly have to do
with me!"
"Dim Oyster Sinker," said Ferdinand Feghoot.
(First published in The Magazine or Fantasy & Science Fiction, January
1961.)
letters to be typed in news:23081627-e75b-4cb9-afd3-4ec716355de6
@n9g2000pbi.googlegroups.com:
> If I'm selling Xmas trees for $10 a foot and my biggest competitor is
> selling them for $9 a foot, what Wagner opera is that?
>
>
>
> scroll down for answer
>
>
>
>
>
>
> keep scrolling
>
>
>
>
> A: Tree stand undersold
long ago:
Through Time and Space with Ferdinand Feghoot
It was because of Ferdinand Feghoot that the great composer Richard Wagner
found himself under arrest on the planet Madama Butterfry in the year 5735.
Feghoot had told him of the planet whose inhabitants claimed that every
opera theme had been stolen from them. "Vhat!" cried Wagner. "Only Teutonic
ideas are good for grand opera! Vhere is this planet? Come, ve take your
space-time machine. I vill show you!"
Upon their arrival, they went through customs, where they were ordered to
declare any arias, operas, etc. Wagner sneeringly gave them a list.
Immediately he was arrested and charged with grand theft. "This is an
outrage! Vhat themes could I possibly have stolen from you?" demanded
Wagner, and the officer offered to give them a tour.
First, they came upon a vendor camped beneath a tree. His sign announced,
"Root Bottom Stanley! Best deals in the galaxy! Absolutely no being in the
universe undersells me! Garfinkels, $2 each." Nearby was a modest stand
manned by a mole-like person. His sign said simply, "Garfinkels, 6 for a
dollar."
"Vhat does this have to do with me?" said Wagner. Ferdinand Feghoot
replied, "Tree Stan Undersold."
Next, they moved on to a storage shed filled with jars of fruits,
preserves, and so on. A thin rubbery organism grasped the opening of one
jar, crying out in a thin plaintive voice, "Please, can't I have some jam?
Please, just a taste? Oh, how I long for it!"
"Doubtless," said Feghoot before anyone could speak, "This is the Nibble-
Longing Lid."
Finally, the travelers were taken to a dock where a frog-like creature sat
trapping shellfish. His topknot glowed fitfully, barely visible in the
evening twilight. Mournfully, he kept to his task.
Wagner flew into a rage. "Vhat rubbish! Vhat could this possibly have to do
with me!"
"Dim Oyster Sinker," said Ferdinand Feghoot.
(First published in The Magazine or Fantasy & Science Fiction, January
1961.)
The Historian
Jun 8, 2012, 3:22:49 AM6/8/12
to
> <23081627-e75b-4cb9-afd3-4ec716355...@n9g2000pbi.googlegroups.com>,
I thought Gerard was The Flaming Dutchman?
jrsnfld
Jun 8, 2012, 2:00:58 PM6/8/12
to
On Jun 7, 8:12 am, O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
> > It's not really correct to say that Bernstein's cycle eclipsed
> > Solti's, unless you're talking about the later DG cycle.
>
> My meaning of "eclipsed" was that more that it has not had the demand
> it used to. Sorry for the confusion.
The fact that fewer people recommend, or even talk about, Solti's
> > It's not really correct to say that Bernstein's cycle eclipsed
> > Solti's, unless you're talking about the later DG cycle.
>
> My meaning of "eclipsed" was that more that it has not had the demand
> it used to. Sorry for the confusion.
cycle may simply be a natural function of time. Each year the pile of
new Mahler releases and reissues gets bigger and bigger, and the
standard of quality of those recordings is uniformly very high. I
would have trouble recommending any particular cycle when practically
all of them have merit. Nott, de Billy, Luisi, Jansons, et al., show
how comfortable everyone is playing Mahler nowadays. The sound on
those Solti recordings ranges from controversial to dated, which
hampers them in comparison to more recent recordings, not just to
their contemporaries (although I haven't heard a mastering of the
first Bernstein cycle that sounds particularly great either).
On top of all that you have Solti's way with the music, which can be
intense, can be driven, can be spacious, or can be maddeningly
unresponsive to the shape of phrases and variety of colors possible--
it can be lots of different things, but even in his day he wasn't for
everybody.
As new listeners come onto the scene and rediscover Solti for
themselves, he will continue to enjoy surges of popularity in the
future, depending on prevailing tastes.
I can also tell you that whatever flaws mar the complete cycle he did
(the 10th excluded by choice), it grips me every time I dip back into
it. I happen to like Solti's Mahler recordings insomuch as they manage
to convey an element of the character of his live Mahler, which was
overwhelming to experience. Solti had a lot of charisma and it felt
like his orchestra's performances were an extension of that
personality, reaching the listener with unfettered directness without
an ounce of pretense. There are days when that's exactly how I feel
about Mahler--unfettered, uncomplicated directness.
As a bull in a china shop, Solti's greatness was that he usually
managed to emerge without breaking anything at all, a feat that is all
in all quite breathtaking. His weakness I think was that sometimes he
was too successful in reining in his animal energy--the passion
beneath the charm--without a compensating insight that might delight
the intellect. Conductors like Gielen and Boulez provide lots of
"aha!" moments that make you admire their fidelity to the score you
thought you know but didn't know as well as they; Solti rarely makes
you feel like he's smarter than you, the listener, even though you
hear plenty of detail and scrupulousness.
--Jeff
O
Jun 8, 2012, 2:42:56 PM6/8/12
to
In article
<b7e4aa5e-59f7-47a9...@l5g2000pbo.googlegroups.com>,
which has still retained its enthusiasm with the public, and
Tennstedt's, which may be even more popular now, having been
re-released again only recently.
You've written a very good essay on Solti's merits and demerits, and
have rendered a good image of his musical charisma, which is not so
easy to do. I've probably listened to his Ring more than any other
Solti. I must listen to his Mahler.
-Owen
<b7e4aa5e-59f7-47a9...@l5g2000pbo.googlegroups.com>,
jrsnfld <jrs...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Jun 7, 8:12 am, O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
>
> > > It's not really correct to say that Bernstein's cycle eclipsed
> > > Solti's, unless you're talking about the later DG cycle.
> >
> > My meaning of "eclipsed" was that more that it has not had the demand
> > it used to. Sorry for the confusion.
>
> The fact that fewer people recommend, or even talk about, Solti's
> cycle may simply be a natural function of time. Each year the pile of
> new Mahler releases and reissues gets bigger and bigger, and the
> standard of quality of those recordings is uniformly very high.
This is, of course, true. I'm just comparing it to Bernstein's NYPO,
> On Jun 7, 8:12 am, O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
>
> > > It's not really correct to say that Bernstein's cycle eclipsed
> > > Solti's, unless you're talking about the later DG cycle.
> >
> > My meaning of "eclipsed" was that more that it has not had the demand
> > it used to. Sorry for the confusion.
>
> The fact that fewer people recommend, or even talk about, Solti's
> cycle may simply be a natural function of time. Each year the pile of
> new Mahler releases and reissues gets bigger and bigger, and the
> standard of quality of those recordings is uniformly very high.
which has still retained its enthusiasm with the public, and
Tennstedt's, which may be even more popular now, having been
re-released again only recently.
have rendered a good image of his musical charisma, which is not so
easy to do. I've probably listened to his Ring more than any other
Solti. I must listen to his Mahler.
-Owen
J.Martin
Jun 8, 2012, 2:43:28 PM6/8/12
to
>
> As new listeners come onto the scene and rediscover Solti for
> themselves, he will continue to enjoy surges of popularity in the
> future, depending on prevailing tastes.
>
I'll bet if Brilliant Classics were to offer Solti's Mahler cycle for
> As new listeners come onto the scene and rediscover Solti for
> themselves, he will continue to enjoy surges of popularity in the
> future, depending on prevailing tastes.
>
$20, the internets would suddenly be filled with newly minted Soltians
extolling its praises.
There are days when that's exactly how I feel
> about Mahler--unfettered, uncomplicated directness.
>
when I like his 6th. Most of the rest, not so much.
operafan
Jun 8, 2012, 4:39:49 PM6/8/12
to
On Jun 8, 2:43 pm, "J.Martin" <mistalu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I think that's what I like about Solti's 5th and 8th. There are times
> when I like his 6th. Most of the rest, not so much.
What about the LSO Mahler 1? I think that's a fine recording, although
> I think that's what I like about Solti's 5th and 8th. There are times
> when I like his 6th. Most of the rest, not so much.
the sound is dated.
Gerard
Jun 8, 2012, 4:56:30 PM6/8/12
to
operafan <peter....@gmail.com> typed:
It's a fine recording indeed, as is his recording of the 2nd symphony from those
days.
I would not call the sound dated. Compared to Golovanov, Toscanini, Furtwängler
et all (almost daily discussed here), Solti's sound is uptodate.
days.
I would not call the sound dated. Compared to Golovanov, Toscanini, Furtwängler
et all (almost daily discussed here), Solti's sound is uptodate.
herman
Jun 8, 2012, 4:54:09 PM6/8/12
to
On 8 juin, 20:43, "J.Martin" <mistalu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > As new listeners come onto the scene and rediscover Solti for
> > themselves, he will continue to enjoy surges of popularity in the
> > future, depending on prevailing tastes.
>
> I'll bet if Brilliant Classics were to offer Solti's Mahler cycle for
> $20, the internets would suddenly be filled with newly minted Soltians
> extolling its praises.
>
This is probably true. A great many people base their judgement on
> > As new listeners come onto the scene and rediscover Solti for
> > themselves, he will continue to enjoy surges of popularity in the
> > future, depending on prevailing tastes.
>
> I'll bet if Brilliant Classics were to offer Solti's Mahler cycle for
> $20, the internets would suddenly be filled with newly minted Soltians
> extolling its praises.
>
value for money.
Oscar
Jun 8, 2012, 5:17:54 PM6/8/12
to
Why this is marked as abuse? It has been marked as abuse.
Report not abuse
On Jun 8, 1:56 pm, Gerard wrote:
>
> > > I think that's what I like about Solti's 5th and 8th. There are
> > > times when I like his 6th. Most of the rest, not so much.
>
> > What about the LSO Mahler 1? I think that's a fine recording, although
> > the sound is dated.
>
> It's a fine recording indeed, as is his recording of the 2nd symphony from those
> days.
And then there's the Third, with Helen Watts and LSO. Just not good
>
> > > I think that's what I like about Solti's 5th and 8th. There are
> > > times when I like his 6th. Most of the rest, not so much.
>
> > What about the LSO Mahler 1? I think that's a fine recording, although
> > the sound is dated.
>
> It's a fine recording indeed, as is his recording of the 2nd symphony from those
> days.
Mahler, then or now. Recorded in 1968 at Kingsway Hall.
Are you getting ready for Netherlands v. Denmark tomorrow??
Al Eisner
Jun 8, 2012, 5:35:32 PM6/8/12
to
On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, jrsnfld wrote:
> On Jun 6, 4:27 pm, Rich <chongk...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> From Fred Plotkin:
>>
> Who's he?
>
>> This year, for the centennial of Solti?s birth (October 21, 1912),
> On Jun 6, 4:27 pm, Rich <chongk...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> From Fred Plotkin:
>>
> Who's he?
>
>> Decca will release a newly remastered 14-CD set that will wind up
>> under the holiday trees of most Wagnerites.
>
> Why would any Wagnerite want a copy of this recording for Christmas?
> They undoubtedly already have it!
You don't understand. Leaving Wagner under Christmas trees is part
>> under the holiday trees of most Wagnerites.
>
> Why would any Wagnerite want a copy of this recording for Christmas?
> They undoubtedly already have it!
of the "War on Christmas" popularized by Fox News.
--
Al Eisner
Gerard
Jun 8, 2012, 6:03:28 PM6/8/12
to
Oscar
Jun 8, 2012, 6:12:40 PM6/8/12
to
Why this is marked as abuse? It has been marked as abuse.
Report not abuse
On Jun 8, 3:03 pm, Gerard wrote:
>
> > Are you getting ready for Netherlands v. Denmark tomorrow??
>
> Ready already!
I will be watching. I was in Amsterdam when the orange shirts beat
>
> > Are you getting ready for Netherlands v. Denmark tomorrow??
>
> Ready already!
France in June 2008, the first match after beating the Italians. It
was pandemonium. I really thought they were going to take the whole
thing that year.
jrsnfld
Jun 8, 2012, 6:51:21 PM6/8/12
to
On Jun 8, 1:56 pm, "Gerard" <ghendrikse-nospa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Golovanov, Toscanini, Furtw ngler
--Jeff
>Golovanov, Toscanini, Furtw ngler
> et all (almost daily discussed here),
...especially their Mahler!
--Jeff
Bob Harper
Jun 8, 2012, 6:55:41 PM6/8/12
to
Why this is marked as abuse? It has been marked as abuse.
Report not abuse
wowed me when they came out, and I still have the 8, but to my ear
they've all been bettered. I don't ever remember hearing either 3, but
have always heard the Finale of the LSO version was a failure.
Bob Harper
herman
Jun 8, 2012, 6:56:51 PM6/8/12
to
On 9 juin, 00:12, Oscar <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I really thought they were going to take the whole
> thing that year.
they never do
> I really thought they were going to take the whole
> thing that year.
J.Martin
Jun 8, 2012, 7:09:48 PM6/8/12
to
>
> > I think that's what I like about Solti's 5th and 8th. There are times
> > when I like his 6th. Most of the rest, not so much.
>
> What about the LSO Mahler 1? I think that's a fine recording, although
> the sound is dated.
I'd have to admit I don't remember that one--which is not the same
> > I think that's what I like about Solti's 5th and 8th. There are times
> > when I like his 6th. Most of the rest, not so much.
>
> What about the LSO Mahler 1? I think that's a fine recording, although
> the sound is dated.
thing as saying I didn't like it. There are lots of things I don't
remember these days. Now that I think about it, I rather liked Solti's
Mahler 9 and 2 with the LSO, so I probably would like that 1st as
well.
Ray Hall
Jun 8, 2012, 7:42:05 PM6/8/12
to
Ray Hall, Taree
Russ (not Martha)
Jun 8, 2012, 7:43:46 PM6/8/12
to
On Jun 7, 2:30 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
After reading the above, all I could do was hang my head Low and Grin.
Russ (not Martha)
> Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
Russ (not Martha)
M forever
Jun 8, 2012, 9:09:17 PM6/8/12
to
you view his work with various orchestras, specifically what he did in
Chicago, Vienna and London which I guess are the places where he made
the most recordings?
Matthew B. Tepper
Jun 9, 2012, 2:56:46 AM6/9/12
to
"Russ (not Martha)" <roppe...@satx.rr.com> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in news:5f4c93a5-36ed-4619-b55b-fbc671ddb988
@v33g2000yqv.googlegroups.com:
> After reading the above, all I could do was hang my head Low and Grin.
>
> Russ (not Martha)
nyuk nyuk
following letters to be typed in news:5f4c93a5-36ed-4619-b55b-fbc671ddb988
@v33g2000yqv.googlegroups.com:
> After reading the above, all I could do was hang my head Low and Grin.
>
> Russ (not Martha)
jrsnfld
Jun 9, 2012, 3:15:29 AM6/9/12
to
haven't heard all of his recordings, of course, but the recordings
from various locales in his Decca and RCA recordings, along with the
live broadcasts (with orchestras from France, Germany, Hungary,
included), all seem to fit the description. There's some variation, of
course. I think prefer his Concertgebouw recordings of Mahler to his
Beethoven and Glinka with the Berlin Philharmonic. Perhaps he wasn't
such a good fit with the latter. He landed with an orchestra--the CSO--
that was well suited to give him what he wanted, but the LSO also
sounded like a good match for him.
I remember hearing him conduct the NSO in Washington, D.C., and
marveling at how much of a personal stamp he left on the sound and
style of the orchestra in such a brief, one-time encounter.
So if the question is, what orchestras worked best with him, I'd be
hard pressed to answer. A Solti enthusiast would probably tell you
that his Ring cycle was the most exciting, muscular playing the Vienna
Phil has ever done and that the LSO was on the tips of its collective
toes in their Mahler 1 and Bartok recordings. Maybe it's true; the
only thing I can say for sure is they never sounded more Solti-fied
than when he conducted. I'm still wondering if I'll ever hear another
conductor who reminds me of Solti. The oft-quoted image of him as a
"boxer" on the podium suggests that his technique, at least, is very
easy to imitate, but that's obviously not enough to get the same
results.
The trickier question is which composers were his strengths and in
which ones did he seem out of his element. I know that some of his
musicians, at least, thought Solti was absurdly bad with French music.
Then again, musicians are good at covering for their conductors in
concerts: I haven't heard a more effective "Fêtes" live than Solti's,
and I still enjoy returning to his Prelude to the Afternoon of the
Faun, his Carmen, and other French goodies. He apparently was
mystified by the folksiness and charm and bounce in Dvorak; yet his
stiffly serious attempt at the "New World" has its moments and compels
me to give it a try every few years or so.
One could go on trying to figure out where Solti fits in; the truth
is, he really doesn't--that's the bull in the china shop thing again.
Nerve-racking for the shop owner (read: the composer) and those who
empathize with him, but fascinating for everyone else.
--Jeff
Gerard
Jun 9, 2012, 9:06:40 AM6/9/12
to
herman <her...@yahoo.com> typed:
The traditional pattern is:
- slow start
- good middle movement
- disappointing finale
- slow start
- good middle movement
- disappointing finale
Al Eisner
Jun 9, 2012, 8:01:37 PM6/9/12
to
above message. :)
Did Furtwängler conduct any Mahler in his earlier years? I know
there's a postwar recording with DFD of one of the sets of songs.
--
Al Eisner
M forever
Jun 9, 2012, 9:12:42 PM6/9/12
to
Wunderhorn Lieder. The work he did the most often interestingly was
the 3rd which he conducted on numerous occasions in Berlin, Leipzig,
and Vienna. I can see how that work must have particularly appealed to
him.
In general Mahler was played far more often in Germany and Austria
before 1933/38 respectively than most people think. There were two
complete Mahler cycles in Vienna in the 20s. His music was also played
much more frequently in both countries after the war than popular
myths suggest, but not quite as much as it is played everywhere today.
Bob Harper
Jun 9, 2012, 9:20:32 PM6/9/12
to
3rd in the late '20s (?). What one would give to have heard that!
Bob Harper
P.S. A short search revealed this:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/Apr01/Mahler_DFD.htm
which indicates he did 1-4 plus the two sets of songs, but also that he
*may* have been skeptical of the later music. Too bad we'll never know.
M forever
Jun 9, 2012, 9:30:54 PM6/9/12
to
almost too well with the CSO because his very vertical and angular
style of conducting was amplified by their style of orchestral playing
which led to some pretty extreme and sometimes bizarre results. I like
him best with orchestras which have a more horizontal and rhythmically
flexible way of playing, in particular the WP. In those combinations,
his metronome like precision and the more fluid playing and richer
tone of the orchestra complement each other. Good examples are the
Shostakovich 5 coupled with Mendelssohn 4 and Beethoven 5 coupled with
Shostakovich - both albums obviously the result of live recordings
with those programs. Perhaps surprisingly though I do quite like his
80s Beethoven cycle with the CSO which has a very classicist element
to it and which is also less hacky and slashy than their 70s cycle. I
don't agree though that the WP has never played "more muscular" than
with him in the Ring. Just check out some of the contemporary
recordings they made with other conductors, e.g. the Les Preludes with
Mehta.
I wasn't aware that there are Beethoven recordings with him and the BP
but I see there is a Missa Solemnis. Is there more? I am not aware of
any Glinka recordings with the BP though.
After a long absence obviously caused by his rivalry with Karajan, he
did start coming back quite regularly at some point, and I believe
that was in the late 80s while Karajan was still alive. I saw him live
with the BP a number of times and basically the same applied that I
said above about him and the WP. I did hear a very good Beethoven 3
and Bartok Mfpsc program with him which unfortunately wasn't recorded
(at least not commercially).
Bob Harper
Jun 9, 2012, 11:02:16 PM6/9/12
to
reviews of those pre-War Mahler performances?
Bob Harper
M forever
Jun 10, 2012, 10:46:43 AM6/10/12
to
http://www.furtwangler.net/conductor.html
I have never actually researched and reviews of any Furtwängler
concerts. It might be somewhat interesting though to find out how his
Mahler performances were received.
herman
Jun 10, 2012, 12:38:54 PM6/10/12
to
On 10 juin, 16:46, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have never actually researched and reviews of any Furtwängler
> concerts. It might be somewhat interesting though to find out how his
> Mahler performances were received.
I have a hard time imagining this has not been done in the form of a
>
> I have never actually researched and reviews of any Furtwängler
> concerts. It might be somewhat interesting though to find out how his
> Mahler performances were received.
German musicological paper or even book.
M forever
Jun 10, 2012, 5:11:17 PM6/10/12
to
some of the books by Prieberg and Lang but those deal more with the NS
period and later.
Bob Harper
Jun 10, 2012, 5:59:51 PM6/10/12
to
great performances of Shostakovich 5, 6, and 8 (according to the list,
he only did 9), and I'd also have loved to hear the Sibelius 7.
Bob Harper
jrsnfld
Jun 11, 2012, 2:01:33 AM6/11/12
to
on LP with pretty much the same program as what he later recorded for
Sony in Berlin).
>
> I wasn't aware that there are Beethoven recordings with him and the BP
> but I see there is a Missa Solemnis. Is there more? I am not aware of
> any Glinka recordings with the BP though.
released in the early '70s.
> I did hear a very good Beethoven 3
> and Bartok Mfpsc program with him which unfortunately wasn't recorded
> (at least not commercially).
the Concertgebouw, on YT. It's nicely done, but if you want more
fodder for your theory that he did best with orchestras that have a
tradition of flexibility you might try the Shostakovich 9 with the
Bavarian Radio SO on YT. I think it's an even better fit (give and
take) between conductor's style and orchestra's style/sound.
However, since I mostly prefer the earlier, more slash and hack
Beethoven set to (what I've heard of) the later one, I guess I fall in
the more-extreme-Solti-is-better Solti camp--or when not better then
definitely more "valuable". I agree that the later set has a pleasing
classicism about it that indicates some settling into a well-defined,
time-tested, and admirable approach to the music. As a result, it
doesn't stand out in the crowd--it's no fun. I find the other set
grabs me by the lapels the way I want Beethoven to grab me. I would
rather return to the earlier set to relieve adolescent imbalances than
try to prove my maturity by listening to the latter.
--Jeff
jrsnfld
Jun 11, 2012, 2:06:49 AM6/11/12
to
On Jun 9, 6:30 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I wasn't aware that there are Beethoven recordings with him and the BP
> but I see there is a Missa Solemnis. Is there more?
There's also the Beethoven Violin Concerto, with Taschner as soloist.
> I wasn't aware that there are Beethoven recordings with him and the BP
> but I see there is a Missa Solemnis. Is there more?
--Jeff
Gerard
Jun 11, 2012, 3:22:45 AM6/11/12
to
jrsnfld <jrs...@aol.com> typed:
>
> >
> > I wasn't aware that there are Beethoven recordings with him and the
> > BP but I see there is a Missa Solemnis. Is there more? I am not
> > aware of any Glinka recordings with the BP though.
>
> The Glinka overture is on an LP (with Mussorgsky and Borodin) that was
> released in the early '70s.
It also has been issued a few times on CD.
>
> I don't remember Mehta's Liszt in Vienna (I believe I have a selection
> on LP with pretty much the same program as what he later recorded for
> Sony in Berlin).
The LP had a terrific Mazeppa.
> I don't remember Mehta's Liszt in Vienna (I believe I have a selection
> on LP with pretty much the same program as what he later recorded for
> Sony in Berlin).
>
> >
> > I wasn't aware that there are Beethoven recordings with him and the
> > BP but I see there is a Missa Solemnis. Is there more? I am not
> > aware of any Glinka recordings with the BP though.
>
> The Glinka overture is on an LP (with Mussorgsky and Borodin) that was
> released in the early '70s.
Gerard
Jun 11, 2012, 3:26:07 AM6/11/12
to
Gerard <ghendriks...@hotmail.com> typed:
Oops. That is with the LSO.
Is this the one with the BP:
http://www.amazon.com/Georg-Solti-Russian-Soul-Glinka/dp/B0062EUKAI/
Is this the one with the BP:
http://www.amazon.com/Georg-Solti-Russian-Soul-Glinka/dp/B0062EUKAI/
Bob Harper
Jun 11, 2012, 10:51:21 AM6/11/12
to
http://www.amazon.com/Romantic-Russia-London-Symphony-Orchestra/dp/B00000JXZ9/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1339425918&sr=1-2&keywords=solti+glinka
or
http://tinyurl.com/7f8pvg8
the first four tracks of which duplicate the LP with the LSO.
High-powered, to say the least.
Bob Harper
Gerard
Jun 11, 2012, 11:45:15 AM6/11/12
to
Bob Harper <bob.h...@comcast.net> typed:
That is with the LSO (and has been issued different times).
Point was however: a recording of the Glinka overture with the BP.
Point was however: a recording of the Glinka overture with the BP.
Bob Harper
Jun 11, 2012, 11:58:42 AM6/11/12
to
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/July%201973/43/820950/BORODIN+%28completed+Glazunov%29.+Prince+Igor%E2%80%94Overture.
or
http://tinyurl.com/7l4vhcz
Looking more closely at the contents of the Membran issue, I think I
erred, as it lists the Khovanschina Prelude *and* Dance of the Persian
Slaves, and does *not* list the Polovtsian Dances. This duplicates the
contents of the BPO record, not the LSO record. I don't know whether
those performances have ever appeared on CD.
Bob Harper
operafan
Jun 11, 2012, 11:47:47 AM6/11/12
to
On Jun 8, 4:56 pm, "Gerard" <ghendrikse-nospa...@hotmail.com> in
response to the following:
> operafan <peter.bar...@gmail.com> typed:"What about the LSO Mahler 1? I think that's a fine recording, although the sound is dated."
> It's a fine recording indeed, as is his recording of the 2nd symphony from those
> days.
> I would not call the sound dated. Compared to Golovanov, Toscanini, Furtwängler
> et all (almost daily discussed here), Solti's sound is uptodate.
Ok, fine<g>. It's up to date compared to recordings that were 10-30
years older when the Solti/LSO Mahler 1 came out in the early 1960s.
However, it's now 2011, and "up to date" audio has progressed. As
Mahler 1s with up to date (as in "up to date in 2011") sound, I would
list Tilson Thomas, Zinman, Abbado/Lucerne, Nott, Honeck, Jansons/RCO,
Chailly, Zander. All of these boast better audio than Solti, and some
of them are excellent performances, too. Solti's strings are harsh in
louder sections, which is almost certainly due to the sound and not to
the musicians.
I like Solti's Mahler 2 with the LSO, and the sound is better, too.
The only thing that is odd about the sound is the HUGE boost to the
opening low strings. It's way out of proportion to any other time they
play in the rest of the performance. I'm guessing Solti wanted them
loud and the recording engineer goosed them up louder than they
actually played.
response to the following:
> operafan <peter.bar...@gmail.com> typed:"What about the LSO Mahler 1? I think that's a fine recording, although the sound is dated."
> It's a fine recording indeed, as is his recording of the 2nd symphony from those
> days.
> et all (almost daily discussed here), Solti's sound is uptodate.
Ok, fine<g>. It's up to date compared to recordings that were 10-30
years older when the Solti/LSO Mahler 1 came out in the early 1960s.
However, it's now 2011, and "up to date" audio has progressed. As
Mahler 1s with up to date (as in "up to date in 2011") sound, I would
list Tilson Thomas, Zinman, Abbado/Lucerne, Nott, Honeck, Jansons/RCO,
Chailly, Zander. All of these boast better audio than Solti, and some
of them are excellent performances, too. Solti's strings are harsh in
louder sections, which is almost certainly due to the sound and not to
the musicians.
I like Solti's Mahler 2 with the LSO, and the sound is better, too.
The only thing that is odd about the sound is the HUGE boost to the
opening low strings. It's way out of proportion to any other time they
play in the rest of the performance. I'm guessing Solti wanted them
loud and the recording engineer goosed them up louder than they
actually played.
operafan
Jun 11, 2012, 11:50:14 AM6/11/12
to
On Jun 9, 3:15 am, jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> wrote:
> One could go on trying to figure out where Solti fits in; the truth
> is, he really doesn't--that's the bull in the china shop thing again.
> Nerve-racking for the shop owner (read: the composer) and those who
> empathize with him, but fascinating for everyone else.
As an exception, I find his Prokofiev Romeo & Juliet excerpts (with
> is, he really doesn't--that's the bull in the china shop thing again.
> Nerve-racking for the shop owner (read: the composer) and those who
> empathize with him, but fascinating for everyone else.
Chicago) exceptionally graceful and moving where required. And there
is also plenty of punch (as you would expect) as needed.
Gerard
Jun 11, 2012, 12:44:44 PM6/11/12
to
operafan <peter....@gmail.com> typed:
it does not get in the way; it is not worse than the sound of so many recordings
made in the 70s and 80s.
>
> Mahler 1s with up to date (as in "up to date in 2011") sound, I would
> list Tilson Thomas, Zinman, Abbado/Lucerne, Nott, Honeck, Jansons/RCO,
> Chailly, Zander. All of these boast better audio than Solti, and some
> of them are excellent performances, too. Solti's strings are harsh in
> louder sections, which is almost certainly due to the sound and not to
> the musicians.
>
> I like Solti's Mahler 2 with the LSO, and the sound is better, too.
> The only thing that is odd about the sound is the HUGE boost to the
> opening low strings. It's way out of proportion to any other time they
> play in the rest of the performance. I'm guessing Solti wanted them
> loud and the recording engineer goosed them up louder than they
> actually played.
Maybe it is odd, like you say. But I'm still guilty of enjoying it. Solti makes
such a strong statement at the very start of the symphony that all other
recordings look very pale, or like lukewarm tea with too much milk in it.
The opening of the third movement is comparable. I really like Solti's approach
here.
> On Jun 8, 4:56 pm, "Gerard" <ghendrikse-nospa...@hotmail.com> in
> response to the following:
> > operafan <peter.bar...@gmail.com> typed:"What about the LSO Mahler
> > 1? I think that's a fine recording, although the sound is dated."
>
> > It's a fine recording indeed, as is his recording of the 2nd
> > symphony from those
> > days.
> > I would not call the sound dated. Compared to Golovanov, Toscanini,
> > Furtw�ngler
> response to the following:
> > operafan <peter.bar...@gmail.com> typed:"What about the LSO Mahler
> > 1? I think that's a fine recording, although the sound is dated."
>
> > It's a fine recording indeed, as is his recording of the 2nd
> > symphony from those
> > days.
> > I would not call the sound dated. Compared to Golovanov, Toscanini,
> > et all (almost daily discussed here), Solti's sound is uptodate.
>
> Ok, fine<g>. It's up to date compared to recordings that were 10-30
> years older when the Solti/LSO Mahler 1 came out in the early 1960s.
> However, it's now 2011, and "up to date" audio has progressed. As
Of course it has. But the sound of that recording is very enjoyable as it is and
>
> Ok, fine<g>. It's up to date compared to recordings that were 10-30
> years older when the Solti/LSO Mahler 1 came out in the early 1960s.
> However, it's now 2011, and "up to date" audio has progressed. As
it does not get in the way; it is not worse than the sound of so many recordings
made in the 70s and 80s.
>
> Mahler 1s with up to date (as in "up to date in 2011") sound, I would
> list Tilson Thomas, Zinman, Abbado/Lucerne, Nott, Honeck, Jansons/RCO,
> Chailly, Zander. All of these boast better audio than Solti, and some
> of them are excellent performances, too. Solti's strings are harsh in
> louder sections, which is almost certainly due to the sound and not to
> the musicians.
>
> I like Solti's Mahler 2 with the LSO, and the sound is better, too.
> The only thing that is odd about the sound is the HUGE boost to the
> opening low strings. It's way out of proportion to any other time they
> play in the rest of the performance. I'm guessing Solti wanted them
> loud and the recording engineer goosed them up louder than they
> actually played.
such a strong statement at the very start of the symphony that all other
recordings look very pale, or like lukewarm tea with too much milk in it.
The opening of the third movement is comparable. I really like Solti's approach
here.
Gerard
Jun 11, 2012, 12:55:35 PM6/11/12
to
Bob Harper <bob.h...@comcast.net> typed:
I seem to remember now that Solti has repeated himself with this repertoire for
Decca. Already having the LSO LP, I was not interested in the other one, which
seemed to be an older recording. In the Gramophone review you can see that the
LP was issued in the SPA series, which is an indication that the recording was
an older one.
The review does not give us the recording date. It's my impression that the
words "Sir Georg has given us this programme before" are wrong - and should be
"Sir Georg has given us this programme later again".
But I'm not completely sure.
Decca. Already having the LSO LP, I was not interested in the other one, which
seemed to be an older recording. In the Gramophone review you can see that the
LP was issued in the SPA series, which is an indication that the recording was
an older one.
The review does not give us the recording date. It's my impression that the
words "Sir Georg has given us this programme before" are wrong - and should be
"Sir Georg has given us this programme later again".
But I'm not completely sure.
jrsnfld
Jun 11, 2012, 3:15:30 PM6/11/12
to
On Jun 11, 9:55 am, "Gerard" <ghendrikse-nospa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The review does not give us the recording date. It's my impression that the
> words "Sir Georg has given us this programme before" are wrong - and should be
> "Sir Georg has given us this programme later again".
> But I'm not completely sure.
I can't find my copy of the LP (which is definitely from the 70s), but
> The review does not give us the recording date. It's my impression that the
> words "Sir Georg has given us this programme before" are wrong - and should be
> "Sir Georg has given us this programme later again".
> But I'm not completely sure.
the Solti discography on Wikipedia lists those Berlin recordings as
having been made in 1959.
--Jeff
jrsnfld
Jun 11, 2012, 3:26:57 PM6/11/12
to
exception. Solti's quite graceful in the sense that his conducting
often involves lovely sustained, quiet playing that seems quite
weightless--diaphanous, clean, dry...however you want to put it--and
plenty of emotion can be invested in such passages.
These are nonetheless nail-biters on two levels: first, he tends to
reduce the tonal quality to a fine edge on the verge of breaking,
disintegrating. Few conductors seem to favor this. Second, he gets
there and still rarely uses this ultra-focused tone for any sort of
flexibility of phrasing and tempo, or other normal *relaxation* of the
line. Rather these textures often seem to ratchet up, not down, the
tension level and rigidness. And to me this lack of flexibility,
breathing, relaxation--again, call it what you will--means that his
Prokofiev is moving, delicate, and graceful but it just isn't sighing
and swooning the way you might expect, or the way so many other
conductors do quite naturally. So...again, this recording seems to fit
the bull in a china shop analogy--fascinating for us to witness such a
force of energy leaving all that delicacy intact, but unable to let us
relax at the usual moments the way nine-tenths of the conductors would
do.
--Jeff
Gerard
Jun 11, 2012, 3:56:30 PM6/11/12
to
jrsnfld <jrs...@aol.com> typed:
Thanks. It fits to what I can memorize (probably from a review in a magazine)
that the SPA LP contained older recordings sounding worse than the LSO
recordings. (Although the SPA LP has been released later.)
that the SPA LP contained older recordings sounding worse than the LSO
recordings. (Although the SPA LP has been released later.)
Gerard
Jun 11, 2012, 4:01:33 PM6/11/12
to
jrsnfld <jrs...@aol.com> typed:
I think that this is a good description of why his LSO recording of the third
movement of Mahler 2 is so fascinating. It's nervously full of tense, without
relaxation ... splendid.
movement of Mahler 2 is so fascinating. It's nervously full of tense, without
relaxation ... splendid.
Randy Lane
Jun 11, 2012, 4:00:07 PM6/11/12
to
date from the 1970s (the listing says 1973).
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0055DRQ3Q
Gerard
Jun 11, 2012, 4:50:12 PM6/11/12
to
Randy Lane <randy...@gmail.com> typed:
1973 is the release date. Not the recording date, which might be late 50s, maybe
60s.
60s.
Bob Harper
Jun 11, 2012, 4:19:21 PM6/11/12
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On Jun 11, 12:15 pm, jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> wrote:
deceived by the date of the Gramophone review.
Bob Harper
J.Martin
Jun 11, 2012, 5:19:51 PM6/11/12
to
>
> I have a hard time imagining this has not been done in the form of a
> German musicological paper or even book.
Perhaps it has, but if so, I must say I was quite surprised to read of
> I have a hard time imagining this has not been done in the form of a
> German musicological paper or even book.
the extent of pre-war Mahler performances in the most recent volume
from de la Grange. IIRC he lists the total number of performances in
Europe during the period between Mahler's death and 1939 as more than
2,000, with at least 200 more performances in the United States! And
yes, dozens of them were under Furtwangler's baton. It's certainly a
far different picture than what we've often been led to believe about
Mahler. Turns out that far from being ignored in the years following
his death, his music was performed at a rather enviable rate for a
recent composer prior to the war--and soon after.
Gerard
Jun 11, 2012, 5:51:09 PM6/11/12
to
Bob Harper <bob.h...@comcast.net> typed:
Do you have the LP, or a source for the recording date?
I found these pages:
http://eil.com/shop/moreinfo.asp?catalogid=535082
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hansthijs/5812164659/
but there's no information on the sleeve about the recording date.
I found these pages:
http://eil.com/shop/moreinfo.asp?catalogid=535082
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hansthijs/5812164659/
but there's no information on the sleeve about the recording date.
Bob Harper
Jun 11, 2012, 6:06:05 PM6/11/12
to
On Jun 11, 2:51 pm, "Gerard" <ghendrikse-nospa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Bob Harper <bob.har...@comcast.net> typed:
>
> but there's no information on the sleeve about the recording date.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I simply looked at the discography in the Wisipedia entry, which gives
June, 1959 as the recrording date for the BPO disc.It seems to be
accurate for those items whose recording date I *do* know, so I see no
reason to doubt the BPO entries.
Bob Harper
> Bob Harper <bob.har...@comcast.net> typed:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 11, 12:15 pm, jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > On Jun 11, 9:55 am, "Gerard" <ghendrikse-nospa...@hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > The review does not give us the recording date. It's my
> > > > impression that the words "Sir Georg has given us this programme
> > > > before" are wrong - and should be "Sir Georg has given us this
> > > > programme later again".
> > > > But I'm not completely sure.
>
> > > I can't find my copy of the LP (which is definitely from the 70s),
> > > but the Solti discography on Wikipedia lists those Berlin
> > > recordings as having been made in 1959.
>
> > > --Jeff
>
> > Right you are! I'd missed them as I was hurriedly scrolling through,
> > deceived by the date of the Gramophone review.
>
> > Bob Harper
>
> Do you have the LP, or a source for the recording date?
>
> I found these pages:http://eil.com/shop/moreinfo.asp?catalogid=535082http://www.flickr.com/photos/hansthijs/5812164659/
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 11, 12:15 pm, jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > On Jun 11, 9:55 am, "Gerard" <ghendrikse-nospa...@hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > The review does not give us the recording date. It's my
> > > > impression that the words "Sir Georg has given us this programme
> > > > before" are wrong - and should be "Sir Georg has given us this
> > > > programme later again".
> > > > But I'm not completely sure.
>
> > > I can't find my copy of the LP (which is definitely from the 70s),
> > > but the Solti discography on Wikipedia lists those Berlin
> > > recordings as having been made in 1959.
>
> > > --Jeff
>
> > Right you are! I'd missed them as I was hurriedly scrolling through,
> > deceived by the date of the Gramophone review.
>
> > Bob Harper
>
> Do you have the LP, or a source for the recording date?
>
>
> but there's no information on the sleeve about the recording date.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I simply looked at the discography in the Wisipedia entry, which gives
June, 1959 as the recrording date for the BPO disc.It seems to be
accurate for those items whose recording date I *do* know, so I see no
reason to doubt the BPO entries.
Bob Harper
jrsnfld
Jun 11, 2012, 7:13:56 PM6/11/12
to
On Jun 11, 12:22 am, "Gerard" <ghendrikse-nospa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> typed:
can't remember what was on it, but I *do* have in my hands the LP with
LAPO that features Mazeppa, Orpheus, and Hunnenschlacht. Are you
saying that he recorded Mazeppa twice on LP, once in Vienna and once
in LA...before he rerecorded them in Berlin for Sony CD? I suspect
not.
He definitely recorded the Les Preludes with the Vienna Phil...but
that was coupled on LP with some Wagner (Lohengrin, Meistersinger,
Parsifal preludes). Probably, I was conflating two different LPs here,
and that was all the Liszt he did in Vienna.
--Jeff
> jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> typed:
>
>
>
> > I don't remember Mehta's Liszt in Vienna (I believe I have a selection
> > on LP with pretty much the same program as what he later recorded for
> > Sony in Berlin).
>
> The LP had a terrific Mazeppa.
You have me in confusion here. I remember a Liszt LP with Mehta/WP. I
>
>
> > I don't remember Mehta's Liszt in Vienna (I believe I have a selection
> > on LP with pretty much the same program as what he later recorded for
> > Sony in Berlin).
>
> The LP had a terrific Mazeppa.
can't remember what was on it, but I *do* have in my hands the LP with
LAPO that features Mazeppa, Orpheus, and Hunnenschlacht. Are you
saying that he recorded Mazeppa twice on LP, once in Vienna and once
in LA...before he rerecorded them in Berlin for Sony CD? I suspect
not.
He definitely recorded the Les Preludes with the Vienna Phil...but
that was coupled on LP with some Wagner (Lohengrin, Meistersinger,
Parsifal preludes). Probably, I was conflating two different LPs here,
and that was all the Liszt he did in Vienna.
--Jeff
Gerard
Jun 12, 2012, 2:50:45 AM6/12/12
to
jrsnfld <jrs...@aol.com> typed:
I'm sorry to have caused this confusion.
You're right. I could trace the LP, and on the edge of it I could see "LAPO"
mentioned.
I didn't hear it in ages, but I do remember that Mazeppa. Mainly because I could
not find another recording with an equally (or more) thrilling performance.
You're right. I could trace the LP, and on the edge of it I could see "LAPO"
mentioned.
I didn't hear it in ages, but I do remember that Mazeppa. Mainly because I could
not find another recording with an equally (or more) thrilling performance.
RG
Jun 13, 2012, 9:38:22 PM6/13/12
to
On a tangent, I used to get BBC Music Magazine, which came with a CD
every month, until it went out of business maybe a decade ago. Solti's
wife, who seemed to be a Chicago society maven, wrote a column after he
had died. One month, she went out of her way say her late husband
really didn't like Kempe's conducting. I thought that was out of place.
Can anyone cast some light on that, was there some sort of feud?
Thanks,
Jim G
every month, until it went out of business maybe a decade ago. Solti's
wife, who seemed to be a Chicago society maven, wrote a column after he
had died. One month, she went out of her way say her late husband
really didn't like Kempe's conducting. I thought that was out of place.
Can anyone cast some light on that, was there some sort of feud?
Thanks,
Jim G
Bob Harper
Jun 13, 2012, 9:59:03 PM6/13/12
to
Not sure about the article you mention, but it would be difficult to
find two conductors more different than Solti and Kempe. Too bad if
there was a feud as well.
Bob Harper
jrsnfld
Jun 13, 2012, 10:55:42 PM6/13/12
to
dislike between the two, but if there was some tension, or non-musical
reasons for Lady Valerie's statement, here's some likely relevant
facts:
In 1952 Solti left his post at the Bavarian State Opera to lead the
Frankfurt Opera. His successor in Munich was Kempe. There's often
something political going on when a conductor leaves a prominent post
for a somewhat less prominent post, as Solti did on this occasion. And
so it was, according to a review (http://www.newcriterion.com/
articles.cfm/solti-simon-3077) of Solti's autobiography (I've not read
the book, but I imagine the information comes from it directly).
Apparently, as Solti retells it, the powers that be in the cultural
ministry of the city wanted a German conductor, and they offered Solti
a poor contract for continuing in Munich. Solti said yes, but almost
immediately thereafter had a chance encounter with the director of the
Frankfurt Opera and agreed to take that job instead. So the Munich
opera hired Kempe.
I would imagine this might cause a bit of resentment, although Solti
admits his Frankfurt period went very well for him. To add to this,
keep in mind that apparently Kempe was a favorite of the Covent Garden
management and conducted there frequently before Solti took over in
Covent Garden. I wouldn't be surprised if some critics compared
Solti's conducting unfavorably to Kempe's.
In particular, Kempe had been conducting a well-received Ring at
Covent Garden before Solti's tenure. In retrospect one wonders if
Kempe had been considered by some fans to be a more logical choice of
conductor for the first recorded Ring cycle, but obviously that's not
how Decca worked things out.
I'm not sure how much Kempe was invited to guest during Solti's tenure
but when Solti left Covent Garden in 1969 the management supposedly
immediately turned to their first choice as successor--you guessed
it...Rudolf Kempe! He declined the offer, but clearly he was on the
management's mind for some time.
--Jeff
Richard S. Sandmeyer
Jun 14, 2012, 2:04:33 AM6/14/12
to
In article <MPG.2a42e06d1...@news.powerusenet.com>,
The BBC Music Magazine is still published, and it still comes with a CD
each month. I recall Valerie Solti wrote a column for a while, but I'm
almost certain that she was British rather than from Chicago. I don't
know a thing about any rivalry or feud between Solti and Kempe.
--
Rich Sandmeyer
rich dot sand at verizon dot net
each month. I recall Valerie Solti wrote a column for a while, but I'm
almost certain that she was British rather than from Chicago. I don't
know a thing about any rivalry or feud between Solti and Kempe.
--
Rich Sandmeyer
rich dot sand at verizon dot net
herman
Jun 14, 2012, 2:58:10 AM6/14/12
to
On 14 juin, 04:55, jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> wrote:
That is a lot of speculation, which also hinges to a large degree on
the idea that there were just two conductors in the world, Solti and
Kempe.
It is very unlikely that the managements of these orchestras / opera
houses weren't talking to other conductors, too, but for the sake of
constructing a classic cat fight scenario the field is limited to just
two figures.
That is a lot of speculation, which also hinges to a large degree on
the idea that there were just two conductors in the world, Solti and
Kempe.
It is very unlikely that the managements of these orchestras / opera
houses weren't talking to other conductors, too, but for the sake of
constructing a classic cat fight scenario the field is limited to just
two figures.
Gerard
Jun 14, 2012, 3:13:55 AM6/14/12
to
RG <jgei...@socal.rr.com> typed:
Maybe your store does not sell it any more?
> On a tangent, I used to get BBC Music Magazine, which came with a CD
> every month, until it went out of business maybe a decade ago.
It's still there, with a CD every month or so.
> every month, until it went out of business maybe a decade ago.
Maybe your store does not sell it any more?
Ray Hall
Jun 14, 2012, 1:33:44 PM6/14/12
to
memory.
Ray Hall, Taree
mike.sco...@asgardpublishing.co.uk
Jun 20, 2012, 6:22:14 PM6/20/12
to
As to Solti and Kempe, why shouldn't he say what other conductors he liked or didn't like, as readily as anyone else? Solti did say he liked many other conductors, so he was just as bound to dislike some. It hardly implies anything as drastic as a feud; they hardly overlapped. Kempe was an older man, had had his time conducting Covent Garden's Rings in the 1950s, before Solti took over and raised musical standards generally. K was a fine conductor, but often rather lightweight and less than vital, so lots of people didn't like his Wagner, not just Solti; I thought his R Strauss was terrible. But he had plenty of kudos in other directions, conducted regularly in prestigious places, and died while Solti was still rising. No problem.
Cheers,
Mike
jrsnfld
Jun 20, 2012, 11:58:05 PM6/20/12
to
On Jun 20, 3:22 pm, mike.scott.ro...@asgardpublishing.co.uk wrote:
> As to Solti and Kempe, why shouldn't he say what other conductors he liked or didn't like, as readily as anyone else? Solti did say he liked many other conductors, so he was just as bound to dislike some. It hardly implies anything as drastic as a feud; they hardly overlapped. Kempe was an older man, had had his time conducting Covent Garden's Rings in the 1950s, before Solti took over and raised musical standards generally. K was a fine conductor, but often rather lightweight and less than vital, so lots of people didn't like his Wagner, not just Solti; I thought his R Strauss was terrible. But he had plenty of kudos in other directions, conducted regularly in prestigious places, and died while Solti was still rising. No problem.
People don't tend to talk about their colleagues/competitors like
> As to Solti and Kempe, why shouldn't he say what other conductors he liked or didn't like, as readily as anyone else? Solti did say he liked many other conductors, so he was just as bound to dislike some. It hardly implies anything as drastic as a feud; they hardly overlapped. Kempe was an older man, had had his time conducting Covent Garden's Rings in the 1950s, before Solti took over and raised musical standards generally. K was a fine conductor, but often rather lightweight and less than vital, so lots of people didn't like his Wagner, not just Solti; I thought his R Strauss was terrible. But he had plenty of kudos in other directions, conducted regularly in prestigious places, and died while Solti was still rising. No problem.
that, in any profession. But I agree that one would *expect* Solti not
to like everything about Kempe's conducting simply on the grounds that
they were quite opposite in the results the got. However...this still
doesn't answer the question of why his wife chose to mention Kempe in
particular. Any others?
Oh, and your theory that Kempe was an "older man" is not correct.
Kempe was two years older than Solti. They were nearly exact
contemporaries and indeed direct competitors for various positions
throughout their careers.
--Jeff
mike.sco...@asgardpublishing.co.uk
Jun 21, 2012, 9:54:07 PM6/21/12
to
On Thursday, 21 June 2012 04:58:05 UTC+1, jrsnfld wrote:
> On Jun 20, 3:22 pm, mike.scott.ro...@asgardpublishing.co.uk wrote:
>
> > As to Solti and Kempe, why shouldn't he say what other conductors he liked or didn't like, as readily as anyone else? Solti did say he liked many other conductors, so he was just as bound to dislike some. It hardly implies anything as drastic as a feud; they hardly overlapped. Kempe was an older man, had had his time conducting Covent Garden's Rings in the 1950s, before Solti took over and raised musical standards generally. K was a fine conductor, but often rather lightweight and less than vital, so lots of people didn't like his Wagner, not just Solti; I thought his R Strauss was terrible. But he had plenty of kudos in other directions, conducted regularly in prestigious places, and died while Solti was still rising. No problem.
>
> People don't tend to talk about their colleagues/competitors like
> that, in any profession.
In what universe? In every profession I'm aware of, from science law to teaching to music to writing, people are always discussing and evaluating their colleagues, frequently in the most vitriolic manner. Expressing mere dislike is the least of it. The views of Beecham and John Eliot Gardiner, for example, on other conductors are vigorous to put it mildly. Solti, in general, was a more generous colleague.
> On Jun 20, 3:22 pm, mike.scott.ro...@asgardpublishing.co.uk wrote:
>
> > As to Solti and Kempe, why shouldn't he say what other conductors he liked or didn't like, as readily as anyone else? Solti did say he liked many other conductors, so he was just as bound to dislike some. It hardly implies anything as drastic as a feud; they hardly overlapped. Kempe was an older man, had had his time conducting Covent Garden's Rings in the 1950s, before Solti took over and raised musical standards generally. K was a fine conductor, but often rather lightweight and less than vital, so lots of people didn't like his Wagner, not just Solti; I thought his R Strauss was terrible. But he had plenty of kudos in other directions, conducted regularly in prestigious places, and died while Solti was still rising. No problem.
>
> People don't tend to talk about their colleagues/competitors like
> that, in any profession.
But I agree that one would *expect* Solti not
> to like everything about Kempe's conducting simply on the grounds that
> they were quite opposite in the results the got.
However...this still
> doesn't answer the question of why his wife chose to mention Kempe in
> particular. Any others?
>
> Oh, and your theory that Kempe was an "older man" is not correct.
> Kempe was two years older than Solti. They were nearly exact
> contemporaries and indeed direct competitors for various positions
> throughout their careers.
>
Not so. Kempe was always thought of as "ahead". Kempe, who was as you say older, was also more advanced in his career, largely because they were differently treated in the war. Before the war, when Solti was still an apprentice repetiteur, Kempe was conducting at Leipzig. During the war, when Solti, uprooted by the Nazis, was stuck in Switzerland as a pianist, Kempe was already exempted by the Nazis from military service to conduct and direct the Chemnitz opera house. After the war Kempe conducted at CG and was offered the directorship, when Solti was hardly heard of internationally. Kempe rejected it, as he did several permanent posts, which began to change the balance of their careers. He was already conducting at Bayreuth, though, in 1960, a year before Solti was offered CG. It was that and his subsequent long tenure at Chicago that made Solti a bigger name than Kempe. Kempe was an alternative to Solti, in many cases, especially as he was more popular with players, but he was not really thought of as in the same league; Solti became a star name, compared chiefly with figures like Klemperer, Karajan, Giulini, later Abbado -- that class. Kempe was slightly below that, above the Kubeliks, Cluytens and the Doratis but maybe even below Bohm. Nobody ever gave him a Ring recording, for example, or other large-scale opera projects, except Lohengrin, because his name was not guaranteed to sell them. Whereas even old Klemperer was preparing a Ring at his death -- for Kempe's main recording label, EMI. A fine conductor, as I said, but not one of the superstars.
> Oh, and your theory that Kempe was an "older man" is not correct.
> Kempe was two years older than Solti. They were nearly exact
> contemporaries and indeed direct competitors for various positions
> throughout their careers.
>
Mike
Oscar
Jun 21, 2012, 10:25:17 PM6/21/12
to
On Jun 21, 6:54 pm, mike.scott.ro...@asgardpublishing.co.uk wrote:
>
> > People don't tend to talk about their colleagues/competitors like
> > that, in any profession.
>
> In what universe? In every profession I'm aware of, from science
> law to teaching to music to writing, people are always discussing
> and evaluating their colleagues, frequently in the most vitriolic
> manner. Expressing mere dislike is the least of it. The views of
> Beecham and John Eliot Gardiner, for example, on other conductors
> are vigorous to put it mildly. Solti, in general, was a more generous
> colleague.
Production managers, stage managers, tour accountants, backline techs,
>
> > People don't tend to talk about their colleagues/competitors like
> > that, in any profession.
>
> In what universe? In every profession I'm aware of, from science
> law to teaching to music to writing, people are always discussing
> and evaluating their colleagues, frequently in the most vitriolic
> manner. Expressing mere dislike is the least of it. The views of
> Beecham and John Eliot Gardiner, for example, on other conductors
> are vigorous to put it mildly. Solti, in general, was a more generous
> colleague.
lighting directors, front-of-house engineers, dressing room
coordinators, bus & truck drivers, et al. are ALL subjects of constant
gossip and shit-talking from colleagues and competitors — often face-
to-face. I've seen a couple throwdowns and sudden flights home in my
day.
Tassilo
Jun 21, 2012, 11:35:44 PM6/21/12
to
On Jun 6, 2:13 pm, wkasimer <wkasi...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Jun 6, 11:16 am, Rich <chongk...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > I know that the Solti Ring will be remastered for the 100th birthday-
>
> For SACD? Otherwise, it's entirely unnecessary.
>
> Bill
Yes, the Original Covers remastering (the one currently available)
already sounded inferior to the first CD release. No need to make it
sound even worse.
-Tassilo
> On Jun 6, 11:16 am, Rich <chongk...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > I know that the Solti Ring will be remastered for the 100th birthday-
>
> For SACD? Otherwise, it's entirely unnecessary.
>
> Bill
Yes, the Original Covers remastering (the one currently available)
already sounded inferior to the first CD release. No need to make it
sound even worse.
-Tassilo
Tassilo
Jun 21, 2012, 11:39:09 PM6/21/12
to
On Jun 6, 4:27 pm, Rich <chongk...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> This year, for the centennial of Solti’s birth (October 21, 1912),
> Decca will release a newly remastered 14-CD set that will wind up
> under the holiday trees of most Wagnerites. I also recommend the
> fascinating book, “Ring Resounding” by Decca producer John Culshaw
> about how these recordings were created.
>
> Solti brought similar fleetness and drama to operas by Mozart, Verdi,
> Strauss and other Wagner operas. Listen to his orchestral playing on
> his recordings of Tannhauser and Lohengrin and it is hard to listen to
> anyone else, even if not every singer was ideal for their roles. I
> hope these are among the operas getting new releases in honor of the
> centennial. I believe that Solti’s amazing Mozart and Strauss
> performances are set for re-release. His da Ponte operas (Le Nozze di
> Figaro, Don Giovanni, Così fan tutte) are elegant and vibrant while
> Elektra (with Birgit Nilsson) is breathtaking. These will be among the
> 100 recordings that Decca will release in new editions in September
I can easily live without almost everything Solti recorded, but,
whatever you do, please don't try to tell me he was a great Verdi
conductor. His Verdi opera recordings are among the least persuasive
things in the Solti discography.
-david gable
> On Jun 6, 11:13 am, wkasimer <wkasi...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 6, 11:16 am, Rich <chongk...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > I know that the Solti Ring will be remastered for the 100th birthday-
>
> > For SACD? Otherwise, it's entirely unnecessary.
>
> > Bill
>
> From Fred Plotkin:
>
> > On Jun 6, 11:16 am, Rich <chongk...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > I know that the Solti Ring will be remastered for the 100th birthday-
>
> > For SACD? Otherwise, it's entirely unnecessary.
>
> > Bill
>
>
> This year, for the centennial of Solti’s birth (October 21, 1912),
> Decca will release a newly remastered 14-CD set that will wind up
> under the holiday trees of most Wagnerites. I also recommend the
> fascinating book, “Ring Resounding” by Decca producer John Culshaw
> about how these recordings were created.
>
> Solti brought similar fleetness and drama to operas by Mozart, Verdi,
> Strauss and other Wagner operas. Listen to his orchestral playing on
> his recordings of Tannhauser and Lohengrin and it is hard to listen to
> anyone else, even if not every singer was ideal for their roles. I
> hope these are among the operas getting new releases in honor of the
> centennial. I believe that Solti’s amazing Mozart and Strauss
> performances are set for re-release. His da Ponte operas (Le Nozze di
> Figaro, Don Giovanni, Così fan tutte) are elegant and vibrant while
> Elektra (with Birgit Nilsson) is breathtaking. These will be among the
> 100 recordings that Decca will release in new editions in September
I can easily live without almost everything Solti recorded, but,
whatever you do, please don't try to tell me he was a great Verdi
conductor. His Verdi opera recordings are among the least persuasive
things in the Solti discography.
-david gable
jrsnfld
Jun 22, 2012, 12:44:18 AM6/22/12
to
On Jun 21, 6:54 pm, mike.scott.ro...@asgardpublishing.co.uk wrote:
> On Thursday, 21 June 2012 04:58:05 UTC+1, jrsnfld wrote:
> > On Jun 20, 3:22 pm, mike.scott.ro...@asgardpublishing.co.uk wrote:
>
> > > As to Solti and Kempe, why shouldn't he say what other conductors he liked or didn't like, as readily as anyone else? Solti did say he liked many other conductors, so he was just as bound to dislike some. It hardly implies anything as drastic as a feud; they hardly overlapped. Kempe was an older man, had had his time conducting Covent Garden's Rings in the 1950s, before Solti took over and raised musical standards generally. K was a fine conductor, but often rather lightweight and less than vital, so lots of people didn't like his Wagner, not just Solti; I thought his R Strauss was terrible. But he had plenty of kudos in other directions, conducted regularly in prestigious places, and died while Solti was still rising. No problem.
>
> > People don't tend to talk about their colleagues/competitors like
> > that, in any profession.
>
> In what universe? In every profession I'm aware of, from science law to teaching to music to writing, people are always discussing and evaluating their colleagues, frequently in the most vitriolic manner. Expressing mere dislike is the least of it. The views of Beecham and John Eliot Gardiner, for example, on other conductors are vigorous to put it mildly. Solti, in general, was a more generous colleague.<
Perhaps we live in different universes. The professionals I know (in
> > On Jun 20, 3:22 pm, mike.scott.ro...@asgardpublishing.co.uk wrote:
>
> > > As to Solti and Kempe, why shouldn't he say what other conductors he liked or didn't like, as readily as anyone else? Solti did say he liked many other conductors, so he was just as bound to dislike some. It hardly implies anything as drastic as a feud; they hardly overlapped. Kempe was an older man, had had his time conducting Covent Garden's Rings in the 1950s, before Solti took over and raised musical standards generally. K was a fine conductor, but often rather lightweight and less than vital, so lots of people didn't like his Wagner, not just Solti; I thought his R Strauss was terrible. But he had plenty of kudos in other directions, conducted regularly in prestigious places, and died while Solti was still rising. No problem.
>
> > People don't tend to talk about their colleagues/competitors like
> > that, in any profession.
>
> In what universe? In every profession I'm aware of, from science law to teaching to music to writing, people are always discussing and evaluating their colleagues, frequently in the most vitriolic manner. Expressing mere dislike is the least of it. The views of Beecham and John Eliot Gardiner, for example, on other conductors are vigorous to put it mildly. Solti, in general, was a more generous colleague.<
much the same fields and more) have passionate opinions about one
another and often share them with close friends and presumably spouses
as well. That's not the point. The point is, they're much more prudent
about sharing such opinions in public, particularly the press. Of
course, we don't seem to have Solti on record about Kempe's
conducting, we have his wife instead. So you're merely speculating
about what Solti and Kempe might have said. Meanwhile, apparently
wives are exempt from professional conduct, after husbands and their
colleagues involved are dead and gone....
>
> But I agree that one would *expect* Solti not
>
> > to like everything about Kempe's conducting simply on the grounds that
> > they were quite opposite in the results the got.
>
> Why put it that way?<
>Both of them were, in their own way, remarkable. One would expect them to be individual in their approach. Kempe would be just as likely to dislike Solti -- it does no discredit to either.
difference between disliking a person and disliking their conducting.
The thread was about the latter, not the former. The idea of a feud
was mere speculation. If you don't believe that they were about as far
from each other stylistically as you can get, then say so and we can
discuss that.
>Unless, of course, one's assuming Kempe was inherently superior, which is not the verdict of record.<
a silly concept!--but can you explain how relative merit has anything
to do with stylistic differences? On second thought, don't bother...
>
> However...this still
>
> > doesn't answer the question of why his wife chose to mention Kempe in
> > particular. Any others?
>
> Context of the discussion? Or just an example that occurred to her? You seem to be implying there's something suspect about it.>
behind his suspicion. This, if you were paying attention, is how the
discussion started. RG observed in Pitts' column in the magazine:
"One month, she went out of her way say her late husband really didn't
like Kempe's conducting. I thought that was out of place. Can anyone
cast some light on that, was there some sort of feud? "
about context of the remark or the relationship between Kempe and
Solti, by all means, do so.
>Valerie Pitts, as she was, is a well-educated and intelligent woman, a former BBC presenter -- which implies more brain than in the USA -- and as entitled to express an opinion as any of us. And if she's a bit partial to Solti, why the hell not? What would you expect from his wife?<
illuminating! But that's not really what we're talking about here, is
it? We're talking about why she "went out of her way" to express this
particular opinion.
>
> > Oh, and your theory that Kempe was an "older man" is not correct.
> > Kempe was two years older than Solti. They were nearly exact
> > contemporaries and indeed direct competitors for various positions
> > throughout their careers.
>
> Not so. Kempe was always thought of as "ahead". Kempe, who was as you say older,<
keep in mind that it was you, not me, who wrote, "Kempe was an older
man," as if this was of some particular relevance. Kempe was only two
years older than Solti--a trifling difference.
>[K] was also more advanced in his career, largely because they were differently treated in the war. Before the war, when Solti was still an apprentice repetiteur, Kempe was conducting at Leipzig. During the war, when Solti, uprooted by the Nazis, was stuck in Switzerland as a pianist, Kempe was already exempted by the Nazis from military service to conduct and direct the Chemnitz opera house. After the war Kempe conducted at CG and was offered the directorship, when Solti was hardly heard of internationally. Kempe rejected it, as he did several permanent posts, which began to change the balance of their careers. He was already conducting at Bayreuth, though, in 1960, a year before Solti was offered CG.<
You skipped key post war events in Germany, which is where Solti and
Kempe were working regularly at this time, first encountered one
another, and probably formed opinions about each other. By 1946 Solti
had a very good post in Munich; it is not as if the war allowed Kempe
to be much more experienced and pull far ahead of Solti. The de-
Nazification period allowed Solti to gain equal experience and
responsibility within a couple of years. Perhaps you are confused
about this because Kempe was offered CG before Solti, but actually
Solti was already well known at this time, too. And while Kempe got to
Bayreuth quicker, in 1960, by then Solti had already embarked on that
huge international success recording the Ring for Decca?
>It was that and his subsequent long tenure at Chicago that made Solti a bigger name than Kempe.<
mind too that the "long tenure at Chicago" wasn't all that long by the
time Kempe died in 1976. Kempe's stature compared to Solti after death
is of no great interest in a discussion of Solti's attitude towards
Kempe.
>Kempe was an alternative to Solti, in many cases, especially as he was more popular with players, but he was not really thought of as in the same league; Solti became a star name, compared chiefly with figures like Klemperer, Karajan, Giulini, later Abbado -- that class. Kempe was slightly below that, above the Kubeliks, Cluytens and the Doratis but maybe even below Bohm. Nobody ever gave him a Ring recording, for example, or other large-scale opera projects, except Lohengrin, because his name was not guaranteed to sell them. Whereas even old Klemperer was preparing a Ring at his death -- for Kempe's main recording label, EMI. A fine conductor, as I said, but not one of the superstars.<
Stardom apparently is not the only credential one needs to be handed a
>Kempe was an alternative to Solti, in many cases, especially as he was more popular with players, but he was not really thought of as in the same league; Solti became a star name, compared chiefly with figures like Klemperer, Karajan, Giulini, later Abbado -- that class. Kempe was slightly below that, above the Kubeliks, Cluytens and the Doratis but maybe even below Bohm. Nobody ever gave him a Ring recording, for example, or other large-scale opera projects, except Lohengrin, because his name was not guaranteed to sell them. Whereas even old Klemperer was preparing a Ring at his death -- for Kempe's main recording label, EMI. A fine conductor, as I said, but not one of the superstars.<
contract to record the Ring. Nobody gave Solti the Ring because he was
a big name. It's the other way around. Culshaw handed Solti his chance
to become a superstar.
Was Solti the bigger star by 1965 or thereabouts? Yes. Was he the
finer conductor? Not necessarily. But none of this has much to do what
may or may not have formed Solti's opinion of Kempe, which he may or
may not have shared with anyone except his wife. I'm not sure why you
dwell on this low opinion that you have of Kempe, as if it were only
natural that Solti would share your opinion.
--Jeff
M forever
Jun 22, 2012, 5:54:33 PM6/22/12
to
difficult place for Jews and it only got worse, so Solti's
opportunities to gain experience and develop a career were very
severely limited. I forgot the details from his very readable
autobiography, but basically by the time he was ready to step on the
podium, Jews were banned from conducting at the opera in Budapest, so
he got to conduct just one or very few performances before that
happened (IIRC, in 1938), then the war came around, he was stuck in
Switzerland etc, I think those stages of his career are pretty well
know. So when he was called on to take over in Munich he had basically
next to no experience on the podium at all, he tried to make up for
that with his enormous energy and determination, and in later years he
said that he sometimes still felt as if he had to make up for his late
start.
Kempe, on the other hand, who I am not even sure had to go through any
extensive periods of de-Nazification (or maybe not even any at all),
by that time already had many years of experience coaching and
conducting on top of having been the principal oboe of the Gewandhaus
for several years before that. He was very lucky in that he was born
right into one of the epicenters of the German music scene and even
though he was not from a highly educated family (his parents ran a
beer house and restaurant in Dresden), he did not face any major
obstacles in his development either. He was supposed to go to a trade
school in Dresden but since the orchestra school of the Staatskapelle
happened to be in the same building, his parents allowed him to go
there, too.
> Perhaps you are confused
> about this because Kempe was offered CG before Solti, but actually
> Solti was already well known at this time, too. And while Kempe got to
> Bayreuth quicker, in 1960, by then Solti had already embarked on that
> huge international success recording the Ring for Decca?
>
> >It was that and his subsequent long tenure at Chicago that made Solti a bigger name than Kempe.<
>
> Well, it was Solti's Decca contract, not Covent Garden. Let's keep in
> mind too that the "long tenure at Chicago" wasn't all that long by the
> time Kempe died in 1976. Kempe's stature compared to Solti after death
> is of no great interest in a discussion of Solti's attitude towards
> Kempe.
>
> >Kempe was an alternative to Solti, in many cases, especially as he was more popular with players, but he was not really thought of as in the same league; Solti became a star name, compared chiefly with figures like Klemperer, Karajan, Giulini, later Abbado -- that class. Kempe was slightly below that, above the Kubeliks, Cluytens and the Doratis but maybe even below Bohm. Nobody ever gave him a Ring recording, for example, or other large-scale opera projects, except Lohengrin, because his name was not guaranteed to sell them. Whereas even old Klemperer was preparing a Ring at his death -- for Kempe's main recording label, EMI. A fine conductor, as I said, but not one of the superstars.<
>
> Stardom apparently is not the only credential one needs to be handed a
> contract to record the Ring. Nobody gave Solti the Ring because he was
> a big name. It's the other way around. Culshaw handed Solti his chance
> to become a superstar.
>
> Was Solti the bigger star by 1965 or thereabouts? Yes. Was he the
> finer conductor? Not necessarily. But none of this has much to do what
> may or may not have formed Solti's opinion of Kempe, which he may or
> may not have shared with anyone except his wife. I'm not sure why you
> dwell on this low opinion that you have of Kempe, as if it were only
> natural that Solti would share your opinion.
categories as who is a conducting "superstar" or not. Which is pretty
nonsensical to begin with and even more nonsensical when as strictly
applied and ranked as here. Kempe, for instance, was not "slightly
above" Kubelik - the latter, while not a "superstar" in the way he
came across and the way he presented himself, had about as big a
career as most conductors could have dreamed to have. He had his own
first class orchestra for many years, he guested everywhere, he
recorded extensively for DG, Beethoven, Mahler, Dvorak symphony
cycles, operas, and much more.
Bob Harper
Jun 22, 2012, 6:06:46 PM6/22/12
to
Neither a 'superstar' (whatever that means), but first-class musicians
whose reputations are secure.
Bob Harper
jrsnfld
Jun 22, 2012, 7:04:38 PM6/22/12
to
limited. He did have opportunities to coach singers, assist Toscanini,
and conduct a bit during this period, as Kempe did. Solti didn't have
as much experience, of course. But my contention is that in the few
years after the war, he caught up. He was thrust into major
responsibility immediately post-war (whereas Kempe took a few years to
land a post, as far as I can tell) and within a few years that should
be enough for anyone--maybe not enough time to get a huge repertoire,
etc. but enough to make him fully capable. We're splitting hairs to
distinguish between their experience level at that point: certainly
unjustified to say that Kempe was massively more experienced in the
1950s, or that he was "an older man" in terms of experience by any
meaningful measure. They were both youngish conductors with good
experience by c. 1950. They were both very talented, able to overcome
whatever obstacles and circumstances they faced in short order.
--Jeff
M forever
Jun 22, 2012, 8:46:35 PM6/22/12
to
was, obviously, very unusual.
> and within a few years that should
> be enough for anyone--maybe not enough time to get a huge repertoire,
> etc. but enough to make him fully capable.
he had it very difficult because he got such a late start, and that he
tried to make up for that with hard work and sheer energy, and that he
felt that he maybe still overcompensated for what he perceived as his
shortcomings many years later - an astonishingly honest statement. He
certainly was an extremely energetic and immensely likeable person
(apart from having seen the name on some records in the library and in
some reviews, I first became aware of who he was when there was a
portrait on German TV in which he talked about his life in very
colorful and expressive solti-esque German) which is why I still feel
bad sometimes that I don't really like that many of his recordings,
and even more bad because I really dislike some of his recordings
(especially of some of the Mahler symphonies). I do think that he
wasn't such a technically outstanding and flexible conductor, more
pretty solid than anything else, but he made up for that with his
electric personality - which reminds us that being a conductor is
perhaps as much about having the personality of a leader as technical
abilities.
In any case, I have been trying to rediscover Solti recently. Are you
familiar with his Bruckner 9? I am planning to listen to that soon as
I just got the new Rattle recording so I have listened to the piece
for that first time in a while and I am looking for a contrasting
version to listen to next.
jrsnfld
Jun 22, 2012, 9:01:31 PM6/22/12
to
On Jun 22, 5:46 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In any case, I have been trying to rediscover Solti recently. Are you
> familiar with his Bruckner 9? I am planning to listen to that soon as
> I just got the new Rattle recording so I have listened to the piece
> for that first time in a while and I am looking for a contrasting
> version to listen to next.
I haven't listened to Solti's 9th in ages, but I listened to it a lot
> In any case, I have been trying to rediscover Solti recently. Are you
> familiar with his Bruckner 9? I am planning to listen to that soon as
> I just got the new Rattle recording so I have listened to the piece
> for that first time in a while and I am looking for a contrasting
> version to listen to next.
when it came out (I think that and one of Haitink's digital Amsterdam
9th were the only CDs I had of the work for too long) and felt it was
a good step forward for him as a Brucknerian. I enjoyed the adolescent
energy of his 4 and 6, which obviously wouldn't be to everyone's
taste, but the 9th seemed relatively grander, more autumnal as it
should be, more "central" and palatable to general Brucknerian
preferences, I guess. Still, it's relatively early digital, and I
don't know what I would think now. I've heard some of Rattle's
performances, and my impression was very favorable, but it's hard to
think otherwise with such nice playing and (I assume) in excellent
sound.
--Jeff
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