Symphony Fantastique/Munch/BSO - how many recs?

[Hans Christian Dörrscheidt]

Hello everybody,

after watching a documentary on conductors today, I searched for recordings
of Berlioz' "Symphonie Fantastique" he made with the Boston Symphony
Orchestra.

I found that the Symphonie has been a subject to very long threads at
r.m.c.c. time and again, but what I didn't quite understand from all those
messages:

Did Charles Munch record this work with the Boston Symphony (not others) on
more occasions than 1954? (I understand that's the version reissued on CD in
RCA's "Living Stereo" series as on
http://cdnow.com/switch/from=cr-9635397-1/target=buyweb_purchase/itemid=4706
66)

Thanks,
HCD

[G POLLIONI]

Munch made the Symphonie Fantastique with the BSO in 1954 and again just rpior
to his retirement as msuci director of the orchestra in 1962. These are hardly
represenatative, however, as he palyed it nearly everywhere, with virtually
every orchestra he conducted and in virtually every year from the end of the
2nd War until the last concert he ever gave. It got to the point at the BSO
where one could judge Munch's Symphonie Fantastiques like wines -- for there
was one for every single year (at the very least one, often more than that --
one during the regular season and another one at Tanglewood. I've got at least
a dozen of them, if one includes the various commercial recordings. My
favourite is the one from 1965 with the Philadelphia Orchestra, on a program in
which it was paired with La Mer and the 2nd Suite from Daphnis et Chloe.

Gene

[David7Gable]

There are two commercial recordings of the Symphonie fantastique with Munch and
the BSO originally issued by RCA. In addition to the recording made on
November 14-15, 1954, there is an April 1962 stereo recording. Apparently,
1954 was never issued in stereo until the CD era.

Among the reissues of 1954 and 1962 are:

RCA Living Stereo (1954)

Munch conducts Berlioz (8-CD box set) (1954)

RCA Victrola 7735-2-RV (1962)

"Hector Berlioz:
Symphonie fantastique
Roméo et Juliette"
British RCA 74321 34168 2 (1962 with the 1961 stereo Roméo)

"Hector Berlioz:
Symphonie fantastique
Roméo et Juliette"
Japanese Munch Edition
RCA/BMG BVCC-7918-19 or 74321-56866-2
(1962 with the 1961 stereo Roméo)

-david gable

[Alan Lesitsky]

The 1954 Fantastique was first issued as a 2-track stereo reel-to-reel
tape. It's first (of two) LP issues in the USA was on RCA Gold Seal, an LP
long since departed so I don't have the catalog number handy. the second
issue was a digitized RCA Gold Seal "Postage Stamp" issue. The current
Living Stereo issue is IMHO by far the best sonic incarnation this
performance has had.

I've heard both the Victrola and the British RCA issue of the 1962
performance and the Victrola far surpasses the British issue sonically.

In article <20020106190442...@mb-ft.aol.com>,
david...@aol.com (David7Gable) wrote:

--
Al Lesitsky

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[Tom Flynn]

gpol...@aol.com (G POLLIONI) wrote in message news:<20020106184514...@mb-ci.aol.com>...

In 1954, Munch made his first commerical recording of SF with the BSO.
It was done in both mono and stereo, which was the practice at the
time. However, it was released only in mono shortly thereafter. The
stereo version of the 1954 performance did not appear until late 1970s
or early 1980s as a RCA Gold Seal LP. Subsequently, it appeared on CD
as part of the RCA Gold Seal box devoted to Munch's Berlioz recordings
with the BSO. I think a better mastertape was found after this
release and the performance was re-issued and is currently available
as part of the Living Stereo series.

The 1962 performance has been available almost continously since its
first issue. On CD, it appeared as part of the Victorla series and as
a British 2-CD set coupled with his 1961(?)Romeo and Juliet.

For what it is worth, I like the 1954 performance better.

Gene, is it possible to get a CD copy of the SF with the PO? I
enjoyed his D&C #2 from the PO's Centennial set and his
Ravel/Berlioz/Faure recordings with the PO on SONY.

Tom

[John Holubiak]

The 1954 recording was also included with first CD re-issue of the 1959
Requiem on RCA 6210-2-RC.

John

"David7Gable" <david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020106190442...@mb-ft.aol.com...

[John Holubiak]

The 1954 fantastique was also issued on LP as LM-1900. I've seen references
to an LSC-1900 as well, but I've never seen a copy.

John

"Alan Lesitsky" <le...@nerc.com> wrote in message
news:lesit-06010...@dialup66.nerc.com...

[Eric Nagamine]

John Holubiak wrote:
>
> The 1954 fantastique was also issued on LP as LM-1900. I've seen references
> to an LSC-1900 as well, but I've never seen a copy.
>

In the early stereo LP era, supposedly there was a catalog number
LSC-1900 allocated, but never officially issued. Supposedly there are
copies floating around and people have claimed to have seen it, but no
one has ever produced a copy. One NYC dealer had a 5 figure buying price
if anyone could provide a copy.
-----------
Aloha and Mahalo,

Eric Nagamine

[Eric Nagamine]

Alan Lesitsky wrote:
>
> The 1954 Fantastique was first issued as a 2-track stereo reel-to-reel
> tape. It's first (of two) LP issues in the USA was on RCA Gold Seal, an LP
> long since departed so I don't have the catalog number handy. the second
> issue was a digitized RCA Gold Seal "Postage Stamp" issue. The current
> Living Stereo issue is IMHO by far the best sonic incarnation this
> performance has had.

There is a 3rd LP issue in the U.S. A few years ago Classic Records
issued a stereo LP from RCA's master tapes. Classic's catalog number is
LSC-1900, with the cover art work from the original mono LM-1900 LP
issue.

[Hans Christian Dörrscheidt]

Thanks everybody! I found both the Living Stereo and the Victrola CD at
amazon.de.

HCD

"Hans Christian Dörrscheidt" <h...@surfeu.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:a1akmg$pb3vd$1...@ID-85725.news.dfncis.de...

[Hat NYC 62]

<< The 1954 fantastique was also issued on LP as LM-1900. I've seen references
to an LSC-1900 as well, but I've never seen a copy. >>

There never was an LSC-1900, until Classic Records pressed one about 8 or 9
years ago. I have a copy and it is sensational. Haven't heard the CD.

David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com

[Edward A. Cowan]

I heard Munch conduct the Symphonie fantastique with the Dallas SO back
in the 1960's. Somewhere I think I have an open-reel tape of that
performance, broadcast by WRR-FM. This was many years ago, however...
--E.A.C. (who also heard Munch conduct "Harold in Italy" with the
Philadelphia Orch. in the Robin Hood Dell, with Joseph de Pasquale as
the viola soloist...)

G POLLIONI <gpol...@aol.com> wrote:

> Munch made the Symphonie Fantastique with the BSO in 1954 and again just rpior
> to his retirement as msuci director of the orchestra in 1962. These are
> hardly represenatative, however, as he palyed it nearly everywhere, with

> virtuallyevery orchestra he conducted and in virtually every year from the

> end of the 2nd War until the last concert he ever gave.

--
E.A.C.

[Mitchell Kaufman]

John Holubiak <Charm...@attbi.com> wrote:

> The 1954 recording was also included with first CD re-issue of the 1959
> Requiem on RCA 6210-2-RC.

Right. And am I the only one who thinks this version sounds significantly
better than the Living Stereo issue?

There is significant tape edge warp audible in the right channel from time
to time, and prominent tape hiss--I doubt whether this was taken from a
first-generation master. Still, it has what seem to be far more extended
highs and in general a wider frequency range, including better bass. There
also seems to be more room sound and reverberation (perhaps as a result of
the more extended highs).

I also own a copy of LM-1900, and it sounds significantly different--far
deader and more close-up than particularly the first CD version. If, as I
suspect, the mono had a different mike set-up than the stereo (many of the
early RCA stereo recordings list two sets of producers and engineers: one
for mono and one for stereo), this might account for the difference.

Interestingly, I have an old *cassette* issue of Reiner's Scheherezade which
sounds better in some respects than either the RCA half-speed mastered LP or
any of the subsequent CD versions.

I also think the original Red Seal CD of the Rubinstein/Reiner Rachmaninoff
PC #2 sounds better than the Rubinstein Edition version.

As to why this should be the case, I wonder whether some of these earlier CD
and cassette issues were transferred from later generation production
masters which had been "sweetened" vis-a-vis the original studio tapes. (The
Living Stereo issues, as I understand it, are transferred from the original
studio tapes without any "manipulation.")

While I recall that Jack Pfeiffer preferred the later un-doctored versions,
this does raise the issue of the intent of the producer. Since this *was*
Pfeiffer in some cases, I suppose we've got to take him at his word; but
that doesn't mean one can't *prefer* the sound of the manipulated versions,
if in fact that accounts for the difference I'm hearing.

MK

[Simon Roberts]

On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 11:08:46 -0500, Mitchell Kaufman
<forg...@iaint.disclosinit> wrote:
>
>John Holubiak <Charm...@attbi.com> wrote:
>
>> The 1954 recording was also included with first CD re-issue of the 1959
>> Requiem on RCA 6210-2-RC.
>
>Right. And am I the only one who thinks this version sounds significantly
>better than the Living Stereo issue?

I've not heard it, but I don't like the sound of the Living Stereo release
which, like so many of those has too much mid-range "warmth" for my taste.
But I may be the only person who prefers his remake....

Simon

[kenneth kwan]

the 1962 recording is also available lately on the expensive jvc xrcd
remastering. but looks like this ng prefers the 1954 version.

[Alan Lesitsky]

In article <slrn3vsa3jj...@pobox.upenn.edu>, sd...@pobox.upenn.edu
(Simon Roberts) wrote:

Count me in as another who prefers the remake.

[Brian Cantin]

sd...@pobox.upenn.edu (Simon Roberts) writes:

You are not the only person who prefers his remake.

--
Brian Cantin
An advocate of poisonous individualism.
To reply via email, replace "dcantin" with "bcantin".

[Eric Nagamine]

Mitchell Kaufman wrote:
>
> John Holubiak <Charm...@attbi.com> wrote:
>
> > The 1954 recording was also included with first CD re-issue of the 1959
> > Requiem on RCA 6210-2-RC.
>
> Right. And am I the only one who thinks this version sounds significantly
> better than the Living Stereo issue?
>
> There is significant tape edge warp audible in the right channel from time
> to time, and prominent tape hiss--I doubt whether this was taken from a
> first-generation master. Still, it has what seem to be far more extended
> highs and in general a wider frequency range, including better bass. There
> also seems to be more room sound and reverberation (perhaps as a result of
> the more extended highs).
>
> I also own a copy of LM-1900, and it sounds significantly different--far
> deader and more close-up than particularly the first CD version. If, as I
> suspect, the mono had a different mike set-up than the stereo (many of the
> early RCA stereo recordings list two sets of producers and engineers: one
> for mono and one for stereo), this might account for the difference.

Part of it probably was mike set up, though I wonder if the stereo crew
just took the same feeds off the mono mike set up. I once read that RCA
and many other companies used multiple mikes feed into a mono mixer.
IIRC, Pfeiffer was in charge of many of the '54 Boston and CSO sessions
with Leslie Chase as the engineer when stereo was still considered
experimental.

> Interestingly, I have an old *cassette* issue of Reiner's Scheherezade which
> sounds better in some respects than either the RCA half-speed mastered LP or
> any of the subsequent CD versions.

The half-speed mastered LP were considered to be half as good as they
should have been in the day. The first CD issue sucked big time probably
because they were based on the half speed LP master.

> I also think the original Red Seal CD of the Rubinstein/Reiner Rachmaninoff
> PC #2 sounds better than the Rubinstein Edition version.
>
> As to why this should be the case, I wonder whether some of these earlier CD
> and cassette issues were transferred from later generation production
> masters which had been "sweetened" vis-a-vis the original studio tapes. (The
> Living Stereo issues, as I understand it, are transferred from the original
> studio tapes without any "manipulation.")

I suspect that the early CD issues were based on the late LP mixes for
Gold seal, etc.

> While I recall that Jack Pfeiffer preferred the later un-doctored versions,
> this does raise the issue of the intent of the producer. Since this *was*
> Pfeiffer in some cases, I suppose we've got to take him at his word; but
> that doesn't mean one can't *prefer* the sound of the manipulated versions,
> if in fact that accounts for the difference I'm hearing.
>

Remember that in the LP era, recordings were "sweetened" to compensate
for the LP format. Reverb might have been added to cover-up edits. LP
cutters in the early stereo era were not as good as their mono
counterparts, so mono LPs often sounded more dynamic and had better
frequency response. Also recordings were mixed for the LP format and
it's RIAA curve. Pfeiffer felt that the Living Stereo CDs were closer to
what's on the master tape. I would think that the original staggered
head format Reel-to-Reels that were the first issue of the Fantastique
might have been closer to what one heard on the session tapes.

--

[Edward A. Cowan]

The better-sounding mono LPs, better sounding, that is, than their early
stereophonic counterparts, may have led to the frequent dismissal of
stereo by B.H. Haggin in his record reviews. He nearly always tended to
prefer the mono edition of a recording that appeared in both forms.
("Avoid the stereo version," was a recurring mantra in his writings even
late into the stereo LP era.) Needless to say, he abominated
electronically simulated stereo, as I should guess most people do today,
if there are any more specimens of such a thing. --E.A.C.

Eric Nagamine <en...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:

> Remember that in the LP era, recordings were "sweetened" to compensate
> for the LP format. Reverb might have been added to cover-up edits. LP
> cutters in the early stereo era were not as good as their mono
> counterparts, so mono LPs often sounded more dynamic and had better
> frequency response.

--
E.A.C.

[Curtis Croulet]

> Needless to say, he abominated electronically simulated stereo

Edward, I've always been curious about the "stereo" remastering of
Toscanini's New World. I have the Victrola issue. I think the sound is
vile. Yet, the original release of this in a fancy Red Seal package around
1961 was highly praised in some quarters. Did it really have different
sound?
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
+33° 27' 59", -117° 05' 53"

[Matthew B. Tepper]

"Curtis Croulet" <curt...@pe.net> wrote in
news:HdR_7.107$qgt.6...@news2.randori.com:

>> Needless to say, he abominated electronically simulated stereo
>
> Edward, I've always been curious about the "stereo" remastering of
> Toscanini's New World. I have the Victrola issue. I think the sound
> is vile. Yet, the original release of this in a fancy Red Seal package
> around 1961 was highly praised in some quarters. Did it really have
> different sound?

Phony-baloney "stereo" remasterings tend to be vile anyway.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Foot-and-mouth; Charlotte Church

[Edward A. Cowan]

Curtis Croulet <curt...@pe.net> wrote:

> Edward, I've always been curious about the "stereo" remastering of
> Toscanini's New World. I have the Victrola issue. I think the sound is
> vile. Yet, the original release of this in a fancy Red Seal package around
> 1961 was highly praised in some quarters. Did it really have different
> sound?

I never heard the phoney stereo (for phoneygraphs? <g>) edition of
Toscanini's "New World" symphony. I followed Haggin's advice. I'm pretty
sure, however, that some simulations of stereo, such as Electrola's
"Widesound", were technically better than, say, RCA's phoney stereo.
(Back then, the word "stereo" was deemed a sure-fire sell. I recall
purchasing a tape-splicer for open-reel tape that said on the box it was
a "stereo" tape splicer. You should have seen the face of the dealer
when I told him I wanted a "mono" tape splicer...)

--
E.A.C.

[Musician]

One of my all time favorite works! A free download of it is at
http://guigui.toptempo.com with the Cassals Festival Ast. Conductor
and the Music Director of the Composer's Conference now held in
Wellesley, Massachusetts.

David Blumberg
http://www.javamusic.com/davidblumberg (Brahms Trio)

[Matthew B. Tepper]

mu...@mytempo.com (Musician) wrote in
news:ece36667.02010...@posting.google.com:

Are those excerpts from Gordon Getty's _Plump Jack_ from an available
complete performance/broadcast/recording?

[notrump15-17]

AFAIK Munch-BSO recorded this opus twice on RCA: 1954 & ca. 1961. I prefer
the tauter, leaner, nastier, better-sounding earlier version; however, the
later one is no weakling either.
"Hans Christian Dörrscheidt" <h...@surfeu.de> wrote in message
news:a1akmg$pb3vd$1...@ID-85725.news.dfncis.de...

[George Murnu]

And there's also Munch's recording in Budapest on Hungaroton with that's
city's orchestra.

Regards,

George

[mikegray]

"notrump15-17" <notrum...@erols.com> wrote in message news:<a3i3p7$1en$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>...

There are seven complete Munch Fantastiques - first from December 1948
(French National Radio Orchestra on 78s), then the November 14-15 '54
RCA, April 9, '62 for RCA, June 23, 1963 (Valois ORTF), December 19,
1963 (VAI), April 16, 1966 (Hungaroton), October 23 - 26 1967 (EMI).
The undersigned was present for the final performance Munch's life
(Raleigh, North Carolina, November 1968) - I can still remember the
baton (at least two feet long) flying in all directions.

Regards,

Mike Gray
Andante.com Discographer

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, January 6, 2002 at 1:45:14 PM UTC-10, G POLLIONI wrote:
> Munch made the Symphonie Fantastique with the BSO in 1954 and again just rpior

> to his retirement as msuci director of the orchestra in 1962...

Concerning his 1962 recording:

- ...It is quite possibly the finest stereo disc of an orchestra that has been made in the US.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/recording-november-1962-berlioz-symphonie-fantastique

[drh8h]

I have heard the '62 recording in various formats over the years, and it is still the best representation encountered of his individual approach to it. I have always been bothered a bit by the stereo spread of the 1962, like some other Munch/Boston RCAs. The orchestra sounds pushed over to the left, with the occasional instrument or section popping up out of the right speaker. Maybe it would sound correct if the speakers were as wide as Symphony Hall.

DH

[Todd Schurk]

I'm not sure which incarnation of the '62 Munch you have, but the one included in the big Sony complete Munch Boston box has a fine balance between channels, a wide soundstage yes, but no imbalance that I hear (with headphones)

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, January 6, 2002 at 12:56:02 PM UTC-10, Hans Christian Dörrscheidt wrote:
> Hello everybody,
>
> after watching a documentary on conductors today, I searched for recordings
> of Berlioz' "Symphonie Fantastique" he made with the Boston Symphony
> Orchestra.
>
> I found that the Symphonie has been a subject to very long threads at
> r.m.c.c. time and again, but what I didn't quite understand from all those
> messages:
>
> Did Charles Munch record this work with the Boston Symphony (not others) on
> more occasions than 1954? (I understand that's the version reissued on CD in
> RCA's "Living Stereo" series as on
> http://cdnow.com/switch/from=cr-9635397-1/target=buyweb_purchase/itemid=4706
> 66)
>
> Thanks,
> HCD

https://www.stereophile.com/content/recording-november-1962-berlioz-symphonie-fantastique

[drh8h]

On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 3:03:53 PM UTC-4, Todd Schurk wrote:
> I'm not sure which incarnation of the '62 Munch you have, but the one included in the big Sony complete Munch Boston box has a fine balance between channels, a wide soundstage yes, but no imbalance that I hear (with headphones)

I listened again to a couple of movements and it seems better than I remember the lp, but the layout still seems a little off. That said, the fidelity of the sound is state-of-the-art for then and could hardly be bettered now.

DH

[gggg gggg]

On Sunday, January 6, 2002 at 2:56:02 PM UTC-8, Hans Christian Dörrscheidt wrote:
> Hello everybody,
> after watching a documentary on conductors today, I searched for recordings
> of Berlioz' "Symphonie Fantastique" he made with the Boston Symphony
> Orchestra.
> I found that the Symphonie has been a subject to very long threads at
> r.m.c.c. time and again, but what I didn't quite understand from all those
> messages:
> Did Charles Munch record this work with the Boston Symphony (not others) on
> more occasions than 1954? (I understand that's the version reissued on CD in
> RCA's "Living Stereo" series as on
> http://cdnow.com/switch/from=cr-9635397-1/target=buyweb_purchase/itemid=4706
> 66)
> Thanks,
> HCD

(Recent Y. upload):

Dave's Faves No. 164 (Berlioz)