"...He seemed to know very little music, or about music, apart from these few dozen pieces..."

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gggg gggg

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Feb 17, 2021, 11:18:51 AMFeb 17
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drh8h

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Feb 17, 2021, 10:25:54 PMFeb 17
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Andrew Clarke

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Feb 18, 2021, 5:03:47 AMFeb 18
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Sadly, Dave, somebody is going to have to buy the book to find out, as the the page that tells you who "he" is is not included in the Google Books edition. Presumably an older UK conductor with a limited, conservative, repertoire. Part of a conspiracy by music producers to sideline the avant-garde. (Meanwhile, the BBC had stopped broadcasting the work of contemporary 'tonal' composers like Lambert, Rawsthorne and Rubbra, in favour of the second Viennese school and the Darmstadt crowd. )

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

Henk vT

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Feb 18, 2021, 5:42:07 AMFeb 18
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Op donderdag 18 februari 2021 om 11:03:47 UTC+1 schreef andrewc:
Guilini.

Henk

MELMOTH

unread,
Feb 18, 2021, 6:16:06 AMFeb 18
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Après mûre réflexion, Henk vT a écrit :
> Guilini.

Guili Guili Guili !...

Herman

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Feb 18, 2021, 7:31:54 AMFeb 18
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This is the same page from which the quotebot prised the quote that (in the sixties) record companies started recording Mahler because consumers we not going to buy "dissonant" music. Both the bot and the writer of this book do not seem to know what a "dissonant" is and that Mahler, just like Mozart or Beethoven, employed plenty of "dissonants". Mozart even wrote a quartet later named "Dissonants".

So it's a rather delightful irony that the writer of this book (and the bot) want to put down Giulini as having rather limited musical knowledge, while on the same page showing abysmally limited musical knowledge themselves.

What they're really trying to say is "atonal".

MELMOTH

unread,
Feb 18, 2021, 7:40:21 AMFeb 18
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Herman avait prétendu :
> This is the same page from which the quotebot prised the quote that (in the
> sixties) record companies started recording Mahler because consumers we not
> going to buy "dissonant" music. Both the bot and the writer of this book do
> not seem to know what a "dissonant" is and that Mahler, just like Mozart or
> Beethoven, employed plenty of "dissonants". Mozart even wrote a quartet later
> named "Dissonants".

I've always had a little trouble with Giulini...Which I find too often
really too slow...
But what beautiful recordings he made !...I often listen to "his"
Overtures by Rossin and "his" 9th by Mahler...And many others....

MELMOTH

unread,
Feb 18, 2021, 7:43:25 AMFeb 18
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MELMOTH vient de nous annoncer :
> I often listen to "his" Overtures by Rossin and "his" 9th by Mahler...And
> many others....

And "his" Don Juan, of course !...

drh8h

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Feb 18, 2021, 8:06:53 AMFeb 18
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Giulini conducted Don Juan? Come to think, did he ever conduct either Strauss?

MELMOTH

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Feb 18, 2021, 8:46:46 AMFeb 18
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drh8h avait soumis l'idée :
> Giulini conducted Don Juan? Come to think,

Unfortunately, the complete set does not seem to be available
anymore...

https://www.amazon.fr/s?k=giulini+don+juan+mozart&i=classical&__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&ref=nb_sb_noss

> did he ever conduct either Strauss?

Not to my knowledge...

drh8h

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Feb 18, 2021, 8:53:10 AMFeb 18
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Yes, his Don Giovanni is a classic. There is an Emperor Waltz, so at least he touched that repertory. I don't find any Wagner either, unless he accompanied a singer. Maybe a stray Puccini or verismo aria.

MELMOTH

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Feb 18, 2021, 9:55:58 AMFeb 18
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Le 18/02/2021 à 14:53, drh8h a écrit :
> There is an Emperor Waltz

I talked about *Richard* Strauss...

Andrew Clarke

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Feb 18, 2021, 4:19:46 PMFeb 18
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Henk, does the book actually name Giulini, or are you saying that the unflattering description of the unknown conductor in the book could equally apply to Giulini?

The book, which appears to be out of print, is a collection of essays - and comments from record producers - intended for students in 'a new academic discipline'. The editors are both academics. Here is Simon Frith:

<https://www.eca.ed.ac.uk/profile/prof-simon-frith>

and here is Simon Zagorski-Thomas:

<https://www.facebook.com/Simon-Zagorski-Thomas-702953679782286/>

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

Henk vT

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Feb 18, 2021, 5:44:30 PMFeb 18
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Op donderdag 18 februari 2021 om 22:19:46 UTC+1 schreef andrewc...:
Part three of the book discusses the emergence of a star system in classical music in the 1960s. Guilini is mentioned as an example.

Henk

Andrew Clarke

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Feb 18, 2021, 6:35:54 PMFeb 18
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Thanks, Henk. I've managed to find the Kindle edition of the book, and here is an extended quotation:

"Associated with EMI, for example, were a number of technically gifted aesthetic perfectionists with relatively limited musical ambition which matched fairly precisely the tastes of those recording them and selling the results. Italian conductor Carlo Maria Giulini, a case in point, became a 'star conductor' in the early 1960s, making an incandescent recording of the Verdi Requiem in 1964 - which is still commercially available - and a small number of other relatively commercially successful recordings, which represented his entire conducting repertoire; he seemed to know very little music, or about music, apart from these few dozen pieces. No producer seems to have tried to tried to persuade him into a more adventurous modus operandi, despite the ready audience for his recordings."

Andrew Blake, the writer of the above doesn't name his source, but from what I know about Giulini, I would say that the above assessment is inaccurate, to say the least, not to mention condescending. And, as I suspected, there's an ideological axe to grind. Here's the beginning of Blake's essay:

""Who is that black man over there?" asked, predictably enough, the Austrian conductor Herbert von Karajan, during a rehearsal for an early 1960s recording session. In assessing the career of the 'black man' in
question, Suvi Raj Grubb (who became producer Walter Legge's assistant at EMI in 1960, and arguably EMI's most important classical music producer in the 20 years after Legge's resignation from the company in 1964), this preliminary exploration will discuss his importance to the evolution of the common values of classical music as encoded in commercial stereo recordings; but Karajan's question still invites a nuanced answer, and the chapter will also, necessarily, if very tentatively, begin to map race/ethnicity and empire onto the sonic values expressed by classical music, which is still among the most important registers of musical whiteness."

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

Bob Harper

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Feb 18, 2021, 9:43:58 PMFeb 18
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Wokeness poisons everything it comes near.

Bob Harper

Christopher Howell

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Feb 19, 2021, 1:34:29 AMFeb 19
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> "Associated with EMI, for example, were a number of technically gifted aesthetic perfectionists with relatively limited musical ambition which matched fairly precisely the tastes of those recording them and selling the results. Italian conductor Carlo Maria Giulini, a case in point, became a 'star conductor' in the early 1960s, making an incandescent recording of the Verdi Requiem in 1964 - which is still commercially available - and a small number of other relatively commercially successful recordings, which represented his entire conducting repertoire; he seemed to know very little music, or about music, apart from these few dozen pieces. No producer seems to have tried to tried to persuade him into a more adventurous modus operandi, despite the ready audience for his recordings."
>
Giulini, in his early years with the Milan RAI SO, conducted a range of Italian then-moderns (Ghedini, Peragallo, Petrassi) though not extending to the newly emerging avant-garde (Maderna, Berio), plus a fair range of off-beat works such as a typical radio conductor of the time might have been expected to do, though nothing like the range embraced by other RAI conductors like Rossi or Scaglia. So he was musician enough to make a professional job of music beyond his immediate range of sympathies. Some of these recordings still crop up in historical broadcasts or circulate among collectors, so an "early Giulini" box could be assembled and would spring a few surprises. Though he later jettisoned most of this, he was still doing the odd bit of Petrassi etc in his Los Angeles years and presumably would have recorded these pieces if asked, so the decision to set down yet another Brahms symphony may not have been entirely his.

Andrew Clarke

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Feb 19, 2021, 2:08:54 AMFeb 19
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On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 5:34:29 PM UTC+11, Christopher Howell wrote:
> > "Associated with EMI, for example, were a number of technically gifted aesthetic perfectionists with relatively limited musical ambition which matched fairly precisely the tastes of those recording them and selling the results. Italian conductor Carlo Maria Giulini, a case in point, became a 'star conductor' in the early 1960s, making an incandescent recording of the Verdi Requiem in 1964 - which is still commercially available - and a small number of other relatively commercially successful recordings, which represented his entire conducting repertoire; he seemed to know very little music, or about music, apart from these few dozen pieces. No producer seems to have tried to tried to persuade him into a more adventurous modus operandi, despite the ready audience for his recordings."
> >
> Giulini, in his early years with the Milan RAI SO, conducted a range of Italian then-moderns (Ghedini, Peragallo, Petrassi) though not extending to the newly emerging avant-garde (Maderna, Berio), plus a fair range of off-beat works such as a typical radio conductor of the time might have been expected to do, though nothing like the range embraced by other RAI conductors like Rossi or Scaglia. So he was musician enough to make a professional job of music beyond his immediate range of sympathies. Some of these recordings still crop up in historical broadcasts or circulate among collectors, so an "early Giulini" box could be assembled and would spring a few surprises. Though he later jettisoned most of this, he was still doing the odd bit of Petrassi etc in his Los Angeles years and presumably would have recorded these pieces if asked, so the decision to set down yet another Brahms symphony may not have been entirely his.

He conducted Webern's 6 Pieces for Orchestra in Berlin in 1977, later released by Testament:

<https://www.allmusic.com/album/webern-six-pieces-for-orchestra-mussorgsky-pictures-at-an-exhibition-mw0002216818>

There's also a lot of Verdi, allowing us to "very tentatively begin to map race/ethnicity, Ethiopia and Libya onto the sonic values expressed by classical music, which is still among the most important registers of musical whiteness".

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

Andrew Clarke

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Feb 19, 2021, 2:15:42 AMFeb 19
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I'm still trying to work out what king of music's sonic values constitute the most important registers of musical blackness.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

Mark Obert-Thorn

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Feb 19, 2021, 9:51:52 AMFeb 19
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On Friday, February 19, 2021 at 1:34:29 AM UTC-5, Christopher Howell wrote:
> Giulini, in his early years with the Milan RAI SO, conducted a range of Italian then-moderns (Ghedini, Peragallo, Petrassi) though not extending to the newly emerging avant-garde (Maderna, Berio), plus a fair range of off-beat works such as a typical radio conductor of the time might have been expected to do, though nothing like the range embraced by other RAI conductors like Rossi or Scaglia. So he was musician enough to make a professional job of music beyond his immediate range of sympathies. Some of these recordings still crop up in historical broadcasts or circulate among collectors, so an "early Giulini" box could be assembled and would spring a few surprises.

A two-CD set did come out in 2007 with Cetra studio recordings of modern repertoire featuring Giulini and Mitropoulos:

https://www.amazon.com/Giulini-Mitropoulos-1949-1950-Their-Recordings/dp/B00009RAYD/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=giulini+cetra&qid=1613746078&s=music&sr=1-1

Mark O-T

Chris from Lafayette

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Feb 19, 2021, 4:41:23 PMFeb 19
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On Thursday, February 18, 2021 at 10:34:29 PM UTC-8, Christopher Howell wrote:

> Giulini, in his early years with the Milan RAI SO, conducted a range of Italian then-moderns (Ghedini, Peragallo, Petrassi) though not extending to the newly emerging avant-garde (Maderna, Berio), plus a fair range of off-beat works such as a typical radio conductor of the time might have been expected to do, though nothing like the range embraced by other RAI conductors like Rossi or Scaglia. So he was musician enough to make a professional job of music beyond his immediate range of sympathies. . . Though he later jettisoned most of this, he was still doing the odd bit of Petrassi etc in his Los Angeles years and presumably would have recorded these pieces if asked, so the decision to set down yet another Brahms symphony may not have been entirely his.

I remember hearing a Chicago Symphony broadcast (sometime in the 70's I believe) where Giulini conducted a program which included the Bach Concerto for Four Keyboards and a work by Martinu. (I now forget which Martinu work it was however - maybe a piano concerto with Firkusny? Not sure.) In any case, Martinu is not the usual composer one associates with Giulini.
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Christopher Howell

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yes

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