One Mahler/Bruckner to rule them all

[aaro...@gmail.com]

I'm planning on investing in a symphony cycle for each of Mahler and Bruckner. I've got the Abravanel Mahler with the Utah SO ($3 Amazon "Big Mahler Box" download) which is a ridiculous value for money, but most reviews I've seen consider that set to be inferior to many other available recordings. So I'm thinking of upgrading to something better.

I have no Bruckner recordings and would like to get a set.

If you could only get one cycle of each, which would you get? Please make the trade-offs regarding completeness, versions, etc. (e.g. would you rather have set A's superior sound, or set B's slightly inferior sound but which includes Das Lied, or your preferred revision of Symphony X, etc.) as part of your recommendation, rather than recommending multiple sets.

The only condition is that it has to be available in either CD or MP3 format, no LP or Laser Disc only issues.

-P

[westover]

בתאריך יום שלישי, 24 בספטמבר 2013 19:47:27 UTC+3, מאת aaro...@gmail.com:

Not sure where you are at but the Bertini Mahler set is under 20 pounds on Amazon.co.uk (I don't have this - it is on my wish list - but reviews say that the sound is excellent). I do have the Levine discount box from Sony which I like. It is even cheaper but is missing 2, 8 and Das Lied.

For Bruckner, I suggest getting Jochum's icon set (which has Brahms, Beethoven and a little Mozart and Bach thrown in). The other one I am familiar with is the Karajan but I can't stand the mastering for these discs (from initial hearings the sound on the Karajan 70s is much improved).

You can also go the big box route and get a lot of other stuff thrown in. For instance The Bernstein Symphony Edition has his cycle of Mahler's Symphony with the latest remasterings (I love his 3rd) with much more included. There is also a similar box for Wand that includes all of the Bruckner.

-Mike

[O]

In article <50f0828d-9a95-4e13...@googlegroups.com>,
westover <westov...@gmail.com> wrote:

> ?????? ??? ?????, 24 ??????? 2013 19:47:27 UTC+3, ??? aaro...@gmail.com:

> > I'm planning on investing in a symphony cycle for each of Mahler and
> > Bruckner. I've got the Abravanel Mahler with the Utah SO ($3 Amazon "Big
> > Mahler Box" download) which is a ridiculous value for money, but most
> > reviews I've seen consider that set to be inferior to many other available
> > recordings. So I'm thinking of upgrading to something better.
> >
> >
> >
> > I have no Bruckner recordings and would like to get a set.
> >
> >
> >
> > If you could only get one cycle of each, which would you get? Please make
> > the trade-offs regarding completeness, versions, etc. (e.g. would you
> > rather have set A's superior sound, or set B's slightly inferior sound but
> > which includes Das Lied, or your preferred revision of Symphony X, etc.) as
> > part of your recommendation, rather than recommending multiple sets.
> >
> >
> >
> > The only condition is that it has to be available in either CD or MP3
> > format, no LP or Laser Disc only issues.
> >
> >
> >
> > -P
>
> Not sure where you are at but the Bertini Mahler set is under 20 pounds on
> Amazon.co.uk (I don't have this - it is on my wish list - but reviews say
> that the sound is excellent). I do have the Levine discount box from Sony
> which I like. It is even cheaper but is missing 2, 8 and Das Lied.

Personally, I don't think I could live without Tennstedt's recordings.
The ones on Memories are probably the best, but there's not much wrong
with his recent EMI set re-released in a big box, along with some live
recordings of 5,6, and another-one-I-don't-remember.

I find myself going back to Michael Geilen's set again and again,
merely because I ordered it all as downloads and it's sitting in my
iTunes and easy to get to.

Geilen's has great sound, though the approach is a little sparse.
There is no one cycle that beats them all, though, and each cycle has
its weak points.

Joel Levi: some great playing and wonderful sound.

Bernstein I & II: I like the NYPO performances more, but it's still
Bernstein. You'll love him or you won't.

-Owen

[RVG]

Le 24/09/2013 18:47, aaro...@gmail.com a �crit :

Bruckner by Gunther Wand w/Sony.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0042U2HLY
Mahler by Bernstein w/DGG.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0033QC0WY

No comment, no argument.


--
"Il y a un mythe du savoir scientifique qui attend de la simple notation
des faits, non seulement la science des choses du monde, mais encore la
science de cette science." - Maurice Merleau-Ponty

http://rvgmusic.bandcamp.com/album/november-child
http://jamen.do/l/a122027
http://bluedusk.blogspot.fr/
http://soundcloud.com/rvgronoff

[wkasimer]

On Tuesday, September 24, 2013 12:47:27 PM UTC-4, aaro...@gmail.com wrote:

> If you could only get one cycle of each, which would you get?

For Mahler, it would probably be Bertini's set on EMI. Excellent sound, includes the Adagio from #10, and also contains one of the best recordings of Das Lied von der Erde. It's also dirt-cheap on Amazon Marketplace. I share Owen's admiration for the Tennstedt set - but I think that Bertini's features better sonics and a much better Das Lied von der Erde. OTOH, the Tennstedt set includes some additional live performances that are worth the price of the set.

For something more angst-ridden, you might consider Bernstein's first set on Sony; the latest incarnation sounds terrific, and the symphonies are a little more sensibly laid out than on the Bertini or Tennstedt sets.

For Bruckner, I agree that the best initial purchase would be Jochum's on EMI, in the ICON box. Not only are the Bruckner recordings superb, but that set also contains top-of-the-heap Brahms and Beethoven cycles, too. I'm also fond of Haitink's Bruckner cycle on Philips, but that may be hard to find at a reasonable price.

Bill

[Randy Lane]

On Tuesday, September 24, 2013 11:48:38 AM UTC-7, wkasimer wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 24, 2013 12:47:27 PM UTC-4, aaro...@gmail.com wrote: > If you could only get one cycle of each, which would you get? For Mahler, it would probably be Bertini's set on EMI. Excellent sound, includes the Adagio from #10, and also contains one of the best recordings of Das Lied von der Erde. It's also dirt-cheap on Amazon Marketplace. I share Owen's admiration for the Tennstedt set - but I think that Bertini's features better sonics and a much better Das Lied von der Erde. OTOH, the Tennstedt set includes some additional live performances that are worth the price of the set. For something more angst-ridden, you might consider Bernstein's first set on Sony; the latest incarnation sounds terrific, and the symphonies are a little more sensibly laid out than on the Bertini or Tennstedt sets. For Bruckner, I agree that the best initial purchase would be Jochum's on EMI, in the ICON box. Not only are the Bruckner recordings superb, but that set also contains top-of-the-heap Brahms and Beethoven cycles, too. I'm also fond of Haitink's Bruckner cycle on Philips, but that may be hard to find at a reasonable price. Bill

Did the ICON box of Jochum's Bruckner include any recent remasterings? The Japanese have commissioned quite a few remasterings in the last 5-10 years, and these frequently are used in EMI's (now Warner's) bargain boxes. The Silvestri ICON had some such items. And I just received teh Boult Bach to Wagner box and was pleased to find the Schubert 9th in it to be the 2004 remastering from Japan.

[westover]

בתאריך יום שלישי, 24 בספטמבר 2013 22:04:23 UTC+3, מאת Randy Lane:

>
> Did the ICON box of Jochum's Bruckner include any recent remasterings? The Japanese have commissioned quite a few remasterings in the last 5-10 years, and these frequently are used in EMI's (now Warner's) bargain boxes. The Silvestri ICON had some such items. And I just received teh Boult Bach to Wagner box and was pleased to find the Schubert 9th in it to be the 2004 remastering from Japan.

The Beethoven and Mozart are newly remastered for this set (2012). The Brahms is from the 1996 Double Fforte series. For Bruckner the 3 & 7, from the same series, are 1995. The 5 & 6 are also from this series albeit with different remasterings (5 in 1990; 6 in 1998). The rest were remastered in 2000 for the first incarnation of the complete symphony box set. The Bach is from 1982!

- Mike

p.s. Thanks everyone for your comments. I am regretting not getting the Tennstedt when it was around 20 pounds on Amazon - let's hope it dips again.

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 24.09.2013 18:47, aaro...@gmail.com wrote:
> I have no Bruckner recordings and would like to get a set.
>
> If you could only get one cycle of each, which would you get?

This is not a real life condition.

> Please
> make the trade-offs regarding completeness, versions, etc.

This will be for the interested to make.

> (e.g.
> would you rather have set A's superior sound, or set B's slightly
> inferior sound but which includes Das Lied, or your preferred
> revision of Symphony X, etc.)

The only available recording of Symphony X is that of the first
performance under Michael Gielen. The revision was most certainly
recorded as well but to my knowledge has not been made available yet.
I was a little disappointed to learn that apparently serious cuts were
made in the original but will agree that there were indeed some lengths
and the addition of a choral 3rd part is probably interesting.

> as part of your recommendation, rather
> than recommending multiple sets.
>
> The only condition is that it has to be available in either CD or MP3
> format, no LP or Laser Disc only issues.

Just download something and come back to talk about it, it will be more
fun for everyone.

--
Lionel Tacchini
"Ach, Du lieber Augustin, alles ist hin ..."

[Ed Presson]

"westover" wrote in message
news:50f0828d-9a95-4e13...@googlegroups.com...

?????? ??? ?????, 24 ??????? 2013 19:47:27 UTC+3, ??? aaro...@gmail.com:

> I'm planning on investing in a symphony cycle for each of Mahler and
> Bruckner. I've got the Abravanel Mahler >with the Utah SO ($3 Amazon "Big
> Mahler Box" download) which is a ridiculous value for money, but most
> >reviews I've seen consider that set to be inferior to many other
> available recordings. So I'm thinking of upgrading >to

>Not sure where you are at but the Bertini Mahler set is under 20 pounds on
>Amazon.co.uk (I don't have this - it is >on my wish list - but reviews say
>that the sound is excellent). I do have the Levine discount box from Sony
>which >I like. It is even cheaper but is missing 2, 8 and Das Lied.

>-Mike

My favorite is still Bernstein/NYPO, but the Bertini is, I feel, an
excellent suggestion: very good performances and very good sound. I have
both boxes.

Ed Presson

[jrsnfld]

On Tuesday, September 24, 2013 9:47:27 AM UTC-7, aaro...@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm planning on investing in a symphony cycle for each of Mahler and Bruckner. I've got the Abravanel Mahler with the Utah SO ($3 Amazon "Big Mahler Box" download) which is a ridiculous value for money, but most reviews I've seen consider that set to be inferior to many other available recordings. So I'm thinking of upgrading to something better.<

Good idea. Abravanel's cycle has some good moments, and you can learn to love Mahler that way, but it's slightly weaker in terms of the playing and orchestral impact that many other cycles provide. This is important in Mahler.

I tried picking a "first" Mahler set for someone who had a smattering of recordings and had fallen in love with the composer. After much consideration, I decided that I could not pick a set for someone else. It's impossible to know without more evidence about your tastes.

All the recommendations for Bertini are well founded--good sound, fine playing, intelligent interpretations--but much as I like that cycle, it is far from the most exciting or involving or passionate. For some people, that feeling of an essential part of the Mahler experience. Bertini is, in that respect, a failure for some listeners. Bertini is actually a kind of risky choice precisely because his Mahler seems to lack risk. By contrast, either of the great sets by Bernstein is a risky choice. In the NYPO cycle, you get ok but not particularly great sound and some slightly unrefined playing (more powerful than Abravanel but not necessarily that much more cultivated a corporate tone) and some controversial interpretive choices (like the speedy first movement of 6). Yet the better sounding, often more refined DG cycle is even more extreme in some places, with a controversial choice of singer in 4, etc., etc.

I ended up purchasing for that person bargain Amazon downloads and CDs of individual performances that are not part of any complete cycle. Gems like Kletzki and Kegel's 4ths, Mehta's 2nd, Nagano's 3rd, Horenstein's or Solti's 1st with the LSO, Barshai's 5th or Abbado's CSO 5th, Tennstedt's 1st with the CSO, Herbig's 6th, Pesek's 9th, and MTT's 7th with the LSO have been easy to get relatively cheaply, and none of them is part of a complete cycle. That way a person can learn to live with a variety of approaches to Mahler and see that this obsession with picking a "best" is unnecessary.

I also think, if you're really going to like Mahler, you're going to want more than one set, or at least more choices than one recording per symphony. And you'll want the songs. So buying outside the sets is a good way to leave open exploration into sets later.

Ultimately, if you're open minded, nearly any cycles is going to impress you more than Abravanel's. You can confidently look at Maazel, Chailly, Haitink, Sinopoli, Bertini, Bernstein (x2), Solti, Kubelik, and Gielen, for example. Use YouTube to get a sense of the strengths and weaknesses of these choices, if you want. Or pick from them blindly.

> I have no Bruckner recordings and would like to get a set.

No recordings? You could start almost anywhere: Jochum on EMI as mentioned elsewhere is very good. So are the Karajan and Skrowaczewski sets. I've heard some of the Maazel set and thought it was quite good as well, and I happen to like the Barenboim/DG set too. The situation is similar to the Mahler question, except that there are a few earlier symphonies that are not quite so frequently recorded outside of cycles.

Eventually, no matter what set you have, do explore YouTube for Bruckner conducted by others, like Furtwangler, Knappertsbusch, and Asahina.

>
>
>
> If you could only get one cycle of each, which would you get? Please make the trade-offs regarding completeness, versions, etc. (e.g. would you rather have set A's superior sound, or set B's slightly inferior sound but which includes Das Lied, or your preferred revision of Symphony X, etc.) as part of your recommendation, rather than recommending multiple sets.

That's up to you. Because everything involves trade-offs, I rarely prefer jumping into any box set. I prefer to get to know one interpreter gradually, disc by disc.

>
>
> The only condition is that it has to be available in either CD or MP3 format, no LP or Laser Disc only issues.

That's too bad because, as you'll find on YouTube, the best Mahler cycles out there may very well be the DVD (and Blu-ray) only cycles you can put together from Abbado in Lucerne and from Bernstein in the '70s with various orchestras.

--Jeff

[David Fox]

On 9/24/13 4:49 PM, jrsnfld wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 24, 2013 9:47:27 AM UTC-7, aaro...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I'm planning on investing in a symphony cycle for each of Mahler and Bruckner. I've got the Abravanel Mahler with the Utah SO ($3 Amazon "Big Mahler Box" download) which is a ridiculous value for money, but most reviews I've seen consider that set to be inferior to many other available recordings. So I'm thinking of upgrading to something better.<
>
> Good idea. Abravanel's cycle has some good moments, and you can learn to love Mahler that way, but it's slightly weaker in terms of the playing and orchestral impact that many other cycles provide. This is important in Mahler.
>
> I tried picking a "first" Mahler set for someone who had a smattering of recordings and had fallen in love with the composer. After much consideration, I decided that I could not pick a set for someone else. It's impossible to know without more evidence about your tastes.
>
> All the recommendations for Bertini are well founded--good sound, fine playing, intelligent interpretations--but much as I like that cycle, it is far from the most exciting or involving or passionate. For some people, that feeling of an essential part of the Mahler experience. Bertini is, in that respect, a failure for some listeners. Bertini is actually a kind of risky choice precisely because his Mahler seems to lack risk. By contrast, either of the great sets by Bernstein is a risky choice. In the NYPO cycle, you get ok but not particularly great sound and some slightly unrefined playing (more powerful than Abravanel but not necessarily that much more cultivated a corporate tone) and some controversial interpretive choices (like the speedy first movement of 6). Yet the better sounding, often more refined DG cycle is even more extreme in some places, with a controversial choice of singer in 4, etc., etc.
>
> I ended up purchasing for that person bargain Amazon downloads and CDs of individual performances that are not part of any complete cycle. Gems like Kletzki and Kegel's 4ths, Mehta's 2nd, Nagano's 3rd, Horenstein's or Solti's 1st with the LSO, Barshai's 5th or Abbado's CSO 5th, Tennstedt's 1st with the CSO, Herbig's 6th, Pesek's 9th, and MTT's 7th with the LSO have been easy to get relatively cheaply, and none of them is part of a complete cycle. That way a person can learn to live with a variety of approaches to Mahler and see that this obsession with picking a "best" is unnecessary.
>
> I also think, if you're really going to like Mahler, you're going to want more than one set, or at least more choices than one recording per symphony. And you'll want the songs. So buying outside the sets is a good way to leave open exploration into sets later.
>
> Ultimately, if you're open minded, nearly any cycles is going to impress you more than Abravanel's. You can confidently look at Maazel, Chailly, Haitink, Sinopoli, Bertini, Bernstein (x2), Solti, Kubelik, and Gielen, for example. Use YouTube to get a sense of the strengths and weaknesses of these choices, if you want. Or pick from them blindly.
>

I agree with most of what you say. My first exposure to Mahler was the
Kubelik/BRSO set which I still think holds up very well. If I were to
keep only one set for myself it would be Bernstein/DG though I don't
think I would recommend it to anyone as their intro set.

>
>> I have no Bruckner recordings and would like to get a set.
>
> No recordings? You could start almost anywhere: Jochum on EMI as mentioned elsewhere is very good. So are the Karajan and Skrowaczewski sets. I've heard some of the Maazel set and thought it was quite good as well, and I happen to like the Barenboim/DG set too. The situation is similar to the Mahler question, except that there are a few earlier symphonies that are not quite so frequently recorded outside of cycles.
>
> Eventually, no matter what set you have, do explore YouTube for Bruckner conducted by others, like Furtwangler, Knappertsbusch, and Asahina.
>
>>

Jochum/EMI is sometimes great and always at least good. Some of the
other sets listed have a few "whiffs" - like IMHO HvK's 6th. Skro's set
is consistently good-to-great as well, but Jochum's set will probably be
easier/cheaper to find given it's also available in a Brilliant Box.

In truth we are really faced with an embarrassment of riches at very
reasonable prices for each composer. It's actually hard to go
completely wrong even if you were choosing randomly.

DF

[Ray Hall]

Ed Presson wrote:

> My favorite is still Bernstein/NYPO, but the Bertini is, I feel, an
> excellent suggestion: very good performances and very good sound. I have
> both boxes.
>

Agree on both counts. I actually think the CBS sound enhances the
Mahlerian experience (but then I always did like the CBS vivid sound),
whereas the sound given Bertini is more natural. Each sound tends to
compliment each conductor's way with Mahler. But for me Bernstein is
desert island material.

I like both Tintner (for the more unadulterated versions), and Jochum
EMI for Bruckner. I am thinking of snaffing Celi's efforts at the right
price, but he didn't record all the symphonies afaik.

Ray Hall, Taree

[wanwan]

Generally I'd be opposed to box sets on the principal that you'd always find something better if you pick and choose.

The Abravanel does have an outstanding 3 and good value 8th. The main problem is an undersized Utah SO. they could use more strings.

I'd still go for the Bernstein DG box for Mahler overall. New cycles on Exton and elsewhere probably have better sonics, but LB has the least duds of anyone conducting Mahler.

For Bruckner, I'd splurge for the recent Blomstedt/Leipzig Gewandhaus box on Querstand. Excellent concert performances in SACD sound by one of the great recent Bruckner conductors. the only thing I didn't like was the edition he uses for the 2nd.

-----------
Eric

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 25.09.2013 07:38, wanwan wrote:
> Generally I'd be opposed to box sets on the principal that you'd
> always find something better if you pick and choose.

Looking for "the best" is both a waste of time and an inhibitor.
A good set is a valuable starting point.

> For Bruckner, I'd splurge for the recent Blomstedt/Leipzig Gewandhaus
> box on Querstand. Excellent concert performances in SACD sound by one
> of the great recent Bruckner conductors. the only thing I didn't like
> was the edition he uses for the 2nd.

It is actually the better choice of edition and the more demanding
version of the work. The 2nd version also has its merits but I am not
sure it really is an improvement besides being a simplification.

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 25.09.2013 02:25, David Fox wrote:
> In truth we are really faced with an embarrassment of riches at very
> reasonable prices for each composer. It's actually hard to go
> completely wrong even if you were choosing randomly.

The existence of opposite schools of interpretation for Bruckner's music
needs to be taken into account. The slow and steady perversion going
back to Oskar Lang, taken up by Weisbach, Karajan, Haitink or Nagano
culminates in the utmost aberrations of Celibidache.

[Herman]

On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 10:06:00 AM UTC+2, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
> The slow and steady perversion going
>
> back to Oskar Lang, taken up by Weisbach, Karajan, Haitink or Nagano
>
> culminates in the utmost aberrations of Celibidache.
>
>

Haitink doesn't belong there.

[Lionel Tacchini]

We must have heard different performances. Haitink's 7th from 1979 and
anything I have heard since was of that kind.

[RVG]

Le 24/09/2013 20:48, wkasimer a �crit :

>
> For Bruckner, I agree that the best initial purchase would be
> Jochum's on EMI, in the ICON box. Not only are the Bruckner
> recordings superb, but that set also contains top-of-the-heap Brahms
> and Beethoven cycles, too.

I'm sorry to disagree: Jochum's take on Bruckner has also turned many
music-lovers away from this music because it's way too serious and cold.
Bruckner was a Southern Catholic from Austria, not one of these
Protestants from the cold mist of Prusse.

If only for the 4th, 5th and 7th I'd strongly advise Boehm/WPO or
Karajan/EMI or DGG 70s. But Wand is still my altogether favourite,
followed by Celibidache leading us to deeper layers of understanding,
but not as a first choice.

[Christopher Webber]

On 25/09/2013 11:24, RVG wrote:
> I'm sorry to disagree: Jochum's take on Bruckner has also turned many
> music-lovers away from this music because it's way too serious and cold.
> Bruckner was a Southern Catholic from Austria, not one of these
> Protestants from the cold mist of Prusse.

Let me say that "Jochum's take on Bruckner" (if one can posit such a
thing from his varied and changing interpretations over the decades)
turned at least ONE music-lover ONTO Bruckner.

At the age of 15 I found his DG set a revelation - and for the very
qualities apparently RVG does not find in it. It can be summed up in one
word: "love". And love, as we know, cannot be constrained as being the
sole province of Catholic or Protestant.

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 25.09.2013 12:24, RVG wrote:
> Le 24/09/2013 20:48, wkasimer a �crit :
>
>>
>> For Bruckner, I agree that the best initial purchase would be
>> Jochum's on EMI, in the ICON box. Not only are the Bruckner
>> recordings superb, but that set also contains top-of-the-heap Brahms
>> and Beethoven cycles, too.
>
> I'm sorry to disagree: Jochum's take on Bruckner has also turned many
> music-lovers away from this music because it's way too serious and cold.

Jochum cold? No, Eugen Jochum's way with Bruckner's music is very much
in line with its spirit, although he will be found to be stretching some
of the slow tempi and introspective side too far in several of the
symphonies. I will not recommend his 5th or 7th for instance.

> Bruckner was a Southern Catholic from Austria, not one of these
> Protestants from the cold mist of Prusse.

Jochum was a northern Catholic from Bavaria, that must be the problem ;-)

> If only for the 4th, 5th and 7th I'd strongly advise Boehm/WPO or
> Karajan/EMI or DGG 70s.

That's the dead steady school.

> But Wand is still my altogether favourite,

A misguided Haas believer who still managed to turn up some pretty
convincing performances, especially in later years when he allowed
himself some tempo flexibility.

> followed by Celibidache leading us to deeper layers of understanding,
> but not as a first choice.

Celibidache should have written his own music rather than distorting
Bruckner's to his Buddhistic views. The assumption that because
something is strange and extreme it is also deep and illuminating is
nothing new, it goes back all the way to freaks of the early middle ages
and attracts its followers now as then. It remains a side path.

Andreae, Furtw�ngler, Horenstein, Klemperer before he slowed down, these
were amongst the truest Brucknerians. The list is not exhaustive.

[Lionel Tacchini]

It is also Jochum who opened this music to me, made it something
understandable. Past the phase of overcoming the maze and eating up the
Spinx, I was able to appreciate and sometime prefer less explicit
interpretations.

--
Lionel Tacchini
It doesn't even taste that great, btw.

[Herman]

On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 1:36:22 PM UTC+2, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
> On 25.09.2013 12:24, RVG wrote:
>

>
> > Bruckner was a Southern Catholic from Austria, not one of these
>
> > Protestants from the cold mist of Prusse.
>
>
>
> Jochum was a northern Catholic from Bavaria, that must be the problem ;-)
>

That was indeed a pretty amazing stupid prejudice. But that's what music is about for a lot of people.

Jochum, together with Haitink, tuned me in to Bruckner.

[MELMOTH]

Ce cher mammif�re du nom de aaro...@gmail.com nous susurrait, le
mardi 24/09/2013, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales
tout de m�me, et dans le message
<dbf4cdb2-42f1-4980...@googlegroups.com>, les doux
m�lismes suivants :

> I'm planning on investing in a symphony cycle for each of Mahler and
> Bruckner. I've got the Abravanel Mahler with the Utah SO ($3 Amazon
> "Big Mahler Box" download) which is a ridiculous value for money, but
> most reviews I've seen consider that set to be inferior to many other
> available recordings. So I'm thinking of upgrading to something
> better.

> I have no Bruckner recordings and would like to get a set.

MAHLER :

*Bernstein* (Sony > DG to Me)...
*Mitropoulos* (7/9 symphonies)...
*Kubelik* (DG)...
*Kletzki* (DG)
*Tenstedt* (EMI)...
*Neumann* (Supraphon)...

BRUCKNER :

*Tacchini* (MELMOTH)...

--
Car avec beaucoup de science, il y a beaucoup de chagrin ; et celui qui
accro�t sa science accro�t sa douleur.
[Eccl�siaste, 1-18]
MELMOTH - souffrant

[RVG]

Le 25/09/2013 13:33, Christopher Webber a �crit :

I discovered Bruckner in high-school with the 4th by Boehm and I fell
in awe by the level of rhythmic intricacy of this almost non-melodic
symphony. Boehm made it sound like a complicated Swiss-watch mechanism
that is always absolutely accurate, or like the forest of pillars and
flying buttresses of a Gothic cathedral.

[RVG]

Le 25/09/2013 13:36, Lionel Tacchini a �crit :

> On 25.09.2013 12:24, RVG wrote:
>> Le 24/09/2013 20:48, wkasimer a �crit :
>>
>>>
>>> For Bruckner, I agree that the best initial purchase would be
>>> Jochum's on EMI, in the ICON box. Not only are the Bruckner
>>> recordings superb, but that set also contains top-of-the-heap
>>> Brahms and Beethoven cycles, too.
>>
>> I'm sorry to disagree: Jochum's take on Bruckner has also turned
>> many music-lovers away from this music because it's way too
>> serious and cold.
>
> Jochum cold? No, Eugen Jochum's way with Bruckner's music is very
> much in line with its spirit, although he will be found to be
> stretching some of the slow tempi and introspective side too far in
> several of the symphonies. I will not recommend his 5th or 7th for
> instance.
>

Karl Boehm then (+ the 4th).

>> Bruckner was a Southern Catholic from Austria, not one of these
>> Protestants from the cold mist of Prusse.
>
> Jochum was a northern Catholic from Bavaria, that must be the
> problem ;-)
>

Still, Bruckner is much closer to Schubert than to, well, whoever from
up there.

>> If only for the 4th, 5th and 7th I'd strongly advise Boehm/WPO or
>> Karajan/EMI or DGG 70s.
>
> That's the dead steady school.
>

Yes, but that's what I've found by reading the scores. I'm not sure at
all that Bruckner's music calls for much rubato. He was not a romantic
and his themes, most of them, came from Gregorian chant, either
traditional or his own motets.

>> But Wand is still my altogether favourite,
>
> A misguided Haas believer who still managed to turn up some pretty
> convincing performances, especially in later years when he allowed
> himself some tempo flexibility.
>
>> followed by Celibidache leading us to deeper layers of
>> understanding, but not as a first choice.
>
> Celibidache should have written his own music rather than distorting
> Bruckner's to his Buddhistic views. The assumption that because
> something is strange and extreme it is also deep and illuminating is
> nothing new, it goes back all the way to freaks of the early middle
> ages and attracts its followers now as then. It remains a side
> path.
>

Bernstein sometimes approached Mahler in a similar fashion.

> Andreae, Furtw�ngler, Horenstein, Klemperer before he slowed down,
> these were amongst the truest Brucknerians. The list is not
> exhaustive.

I don't know, sometimes I think Ravel was the truest Brucknerian. ;)

[RVG]

Le 25/09/2013 13:58, Herman a �crit :

I can understand that, his approach was quite monumental. But I think
that apart from the 8th, Bruckner's music follows the other Austrian
symphonists, especially Beethoven and Schubert, with the new orchestral
instrument that was Wagner's philharmonic (and the fact that he composed
on the organ and not the piano, like C�sar Franck).

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 25.09.2013 17:13, RVG wrote:
>>> If only for the 4th, 5th and 7th I'd strongly advise Boehm/WPO or
>>> >>Karajan/EMI or DGG 70s.
>> >
>> >That's the dead steady school.
>> >
> Yes, but that's what I've found by reading the scores. I'm not sure at
> all that Bruckner's music calls for much rubato. He was not a romantic
> and his themes, most of them, came from Gregorian chant, either
> traditional or his own motets.

That's not so much like Schubert then.
Yes, Bruckner's symphonic music calls for the performance style of its
time, this is documented in the parts used at the premi�re of the 2nd
symphony he conducted himself in 1873. Someone took notes and the tempo
is not steady. Besides, these notes happen to be consistent with the
indications added in the published score 20 years later.

As to rubato, I understand this as shifts within the bar, not as tempo
variations between thematic blocks or in transitions. I see no reason
why rubato should be completely left out of Bruckner's music but this is
not what I was referring to.

>> >Celibidache should have written his own music rather than distorting
>> > Bruckner's to his Buddhistic views. The assumption that because
>> >something is strange and extreme it is also deep and illuminating is
>> > nothing new, it goes back all the way to freaks of the early middle
>> > ages and attracts its followers now as then. It remains a side
>> >path.
>> >
> Bernstein sometimes approached Mahler in a similar fashion.

This statement I do not understand.

[Roland van Gaalen]

Lionel Tacchini wrote:

> Celibidache should have written his own music rather than distorting
> Bruckner's to his Buddhistic views. The assumption that because
> something is strange and extreme it is also deep and illuminating is
> nothing new, it goes back all the way to freaks of the early middle ages
> and attracts its followers now as then. It remains a side path.

I find Celibidache's 'distortions' of Bruckner on EMI quite effective, contrary to my initial impressions.

They may be on the slow side, but what's so 'Buddhistic' and 'strange and extreme' about them?
--
Roland van Gaalen
Cape Town

[Herman]

On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 5:13:52 PM UTC+2, RVG wrote:
>
>
> Still, Bruckner is much closer to Schubert than to, well, whoever from
>
> up there.
>
>

You may have heard from a Leipzig born composer called Wagner, Richard?

Bruckner sure did.

[Roland van Gaalen]

aaro...@gmail.com wrote:
> If you could only get one cycle of each, which would you get?

For both Mahler and Bruckner get

Haitink / Concertgebouw
(studio recordings from 1960s/1970s)

Reasons: elegant lively interpretations, in good taste; excellent orchestra; good stereo sound

Has anyone ever culled these from their collections (except perhaps the Mahler 8 which nobody seems to like)?

[patterbear]

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Bernard-Haitink-Brahms-Bruckner-Mahler/hnum/3193535

[Roland van Gaalen]

On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 6:51:57 PM UTC+2, patterbear wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 9:15:45 AM UTC-7, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> > aaro...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > If you could only get one cycle of each, which would you get?
> > For both Mahler and Bruckner get
> > Haitink / Concertgebouw
> > (studio recordings from 1960s/1970s)
>
> > Reasons: elegant lively interpretations, in good taste; excellent orchestra; good stereo sound

> > Has anyone ever culled these from their collections (except perhaps the Mahler 8
> > which nobody seems to like)?

> http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Bernard-Haitink-Brahms-Bruckner-Mahler/hnum/3193535


Haitink's studio recordings of the Brahms symphonies with the Concertgebouw Orchestra are very good, too, for the same reasons.

[Norman Schwartz]

jrsnfld wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 24, 2013 9:47:27 AM UTC-7, aaro...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>> I'm planning on investing in a symphony cycle for each of Mahler and
>> Bruckner. I've got the Abravanel Mahler with the Utah SO ($3 Amazon
>> "Big Mahler Box" download) which is a ridiculous value for money,
>> but most reviews I've seen consider that set to be inferior to many
>> other available recordings. So I'm thinking of upgrading to
>> something better.<
>
> Good idea. Abravanel's cycle has some good moments, and you can learn
> to love Mahler that way, but it's slightly weaker in terms of the
> playing and orchestral impact that many other cycles provide. This is
> important in Mahler.
>
> I tried picking a "first" Mahler set for someone who had a smattering
> of recordings and had fallen in love with the composer. After much
> consideration, I decided that I could not pick a set for someone
> else. It's impossible to know without more evidence about your
> tastes.
>

It's going to take an entire good week to carefully listen to the recorded
performances of a single conductor of either the Mahler or Bruckner
symphonies. When one has finished any memory of details heard in the first
listen will be gone by the time of the last. During that interval one's
mood/attitude will likely have changed as well. Maybe the only thing that
will stick is the overall impression of the recorded sound. The very idea
behind *one* Mahler/Bruckner to rule them all seems crazy, (in the least).

[aaro...@gmail.com]

I agree it's more of an intellectual exercise than a practical one. I want to invest some $$ so that I can discover the music, and wanted to start with something that was well recommended by those who have a high level of familiarity with what's available. It's much cheaper and easier to get a couple big boxes than cherry pick the most recommended versions of each symphony as I begin to create my collection. Based on the advice I've gotten, I'm going to start with the Jochem/EMI Bruckner and the Bernstein/Sony Mahler. Once I start to develop favorite symphonies, I'll branch out into specific recordings. There's certainly enough archived discussion on this newsgroup to keep me busy for years collecting and comparing various versions.

-P

[aaro...@gmail.com]

> The very idea
> behind *one* Mahler/Bruckner to rule them all seems crazy, (in the least).

... at least I didn't ask about Wagner.

-P

[O]

In article <0c8299ca-bded-4bed...@googlegroups.com>,

Please not to mention that name!

-Owen

[Dana John Hill]

On 9/25/2013 3:09 PM, aaro...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I agree it's more of an intellectual exercise than a practical one. I want to invest some $$ so that I can discover the music, and wanted to start with something that was well recommended by those who have a high level of familiarity with what's available. It's much cheaper and easier to get a couple big boxes than cherry pick the most recommended versions of each symphony as I begin to create my collection. Based on the advice I've gotten, I'm going to start with the Jochem/EMI Bruckner and the Bernstein/Sony Mahler. Once I start to develop favorite symphonies, I'll branch out into specific recordings. There's certainly enough archived discussion on this newsgroup to keep me busy for years collecting and comparing various versions.
>

Many contributors to RMCR have stated their logical opposition to the
idea of single-conductor cycles for Bruckner and Mahler. However, I see
your selection of Jochum (EMI) and Bernstein (Sony) as a good investment
for the future. That is, assuming you march forward in your classical
pursuits and choose to begin duplicating repertoire, these are two
cycles you'd be likely to add to your collection some day anyhow.

Dana John Hill
Gainesville, Florida

[Dave Cook]

Bernstein's first cycle for Mahler and Skrowaczewski for Bruckner.

http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Complete-Symphonies-Gustav/dp/B005SJIP1E
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Symphonies-Bruckner/dp/B0021JLNDQ

Dave Cook

[wanwan]

On Tuesday, September 24, 2013 9:56:36 PM UTC-10, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
> On 25.09.2013 07:38, wanwan wrote:
>
> > Generally I'd be opposed to box sets on the principal that you'd
>
> > always find something better if you pick and choose.
>
>
>
> Looking for "the best" is both a waste of time and an inhibitor.
>
> A good set is a valuable starting point.
>
>
>
> > For Bruckner, I'd splurge for the recent Blomstedt/Leipzig Gewandhaus
>
> > box on Querstand. Excellent concert performances in SACD sound by one
>
> > of the great recent Bruckner conductors. the only thing I didn't like
>
> > was the edition he uses for the 2nd.
>
>
>
> It is actually the better choice of edition and the more demanding
>
> version of the work. The 2nd version also has its merits but I am not
>
> sure it really is an improvement besides being a simplification.

>
>
>
> --
>
> Lionel Tacchini
>
> "Ach, Du lieber Augustin, alles ist hin ..."

I still prefer 1877 over 1872. I grew up with various recordings of the 1877 in Haas & Nowak so my allegiance lies there.

------------
Eric

[Gerard]

wrote in message
news:f9ed4938-640c-4e28...@googlegroups.com...

I agree it's more of an intellectual exercise than a practical one. I want
to invest some $$ so that I can discover the music, and wanted to start with
something that was well recommended by those who have a high level of
familiarity with what's available. It's much cheaper and easier to get a
couple big boxes than cherry pick the most recommended versions of each
symphony as I begin to create my collection. Based on the advice I've
gotten, I'm going to start with the Jochem/EMI Bruckner

=====================

You could consider the reissue by Brilliant Classics of the Jochum/EMI
Bruckner recordings.
Brilliant Classics has added symphony #0 conducted by Skrowaczewski.

[richard...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 6:24:40 AM UTC-4, RVG wrote:

If only Goodall had recorded both cycles! Then you'd see serious and cold alright. Kubelik was, apart from Klemperer EMI and Knapperstbusch's Wagner symphony (or so S3 was subtitled), the first I heard in Bruckner, and thoroughly enjoyable. Lighter than either of the K's. I'd be very surprised if he put people off Bruckner.
I agree with your commendation of Bohm's (Decca) 4th and have enjoyed it since the LPs first came out.

[George]

Given the number of choices, I wonder if it would be easier and cheaper to turn to streaming. If you can use Spotify in your country, or qobuz.com, you can find a lot of recordings, not all, but a lot. Qobuz.com mp3 all you can eat subscription is 10 Euro, lossless flac is 30 Euro.

Even later, when you try to pick up the versions that you really want to keep, selecting first via streaming seems most logical.

George

[RVG]

Le 25/09/2013 18:08, Herman a �crit :

Yes, Bruckner used his "instrument" (as an organist he could write
directly for the orchestra, with all the registries very much like what
we can do today with VSTs and emulators, like in Sibelius 7), but apart
from the 7th, Bruckner's music is all but "infinite melody".

[RVG]

Le 25/09/2013 18:06, Roland van Gaalen a �crit :

Celibidache followed the steps of Furtw�ngler who said that clarity
should prevail in interpretation, and slowing tempos down often helps
(in "Words and Music").
This said there are parts of Bruckner works that sound much better when
they're played faster with an emphasis on rhythm, like the "Te Deum".
Jochum's version with DG is still my favourite, followed by Barenboim's
(EMI).

[Herman]

On Saturday, September 28, 2013 2:10:31 AM UTC+2, RVG wrote:
>
>
>
> Celibidache followed the steps of Furtw�ngler who said that clarity

>
> should prevail in interpretation, and slowing tempos down often helps
>
> (in "Words and Music").
>

Obviously slowing down in many cases rather obscures the musical discourse; it breaks up the rhythm, and it breaks up the melody.

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 28.09.2013 07:31, Herman wrote:
> On Saturday, September 28, 2013 2:10:31 AM UTC+2, RVG wrote:
>>

>> Celibidache followed the steps of Furtw�ngler who said that

>> clarity
>>
>> should prevail in interpretation, and slowing tempos down often
>> helps
>>
>> (in "Words and Music").
>>
> Obviously slowing down in many cases rather obscures the musical
> discourse; it breaks up the rhythm, and it breaks up the melody.

And it changes the character of the music, which is the main distortion.

[Bob Harper]

Note that Jochum was a Bavarian Catholic, not a Prussian Protestant--and his music-making sounds like it, to me at, least!

bob Harper

[Willem Orange]

On Saturday, September 28, 2013 5:35:28 AM UTC-4, Bob Harper wrote:
> Note that Jochum was a Bavarian Catholic, not a Prussian Protestant--and his music-making sounds like it, to me at, least!
>
>
>
> bob Harper

What does that mean????

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 28.09.2013 13:00, Willem Orange wrote:
> On Saturday, September 28, 2013 5:35:28 AM UTC-4, Bob Harper wrote:
>> Note that Jochum was a Bavarian Catholic, not a Prussian
>> Protestant--and his music-making sounds like it, to me at, least!

>

> What does that mean????
>

It means that Bavarian Catholic and Prussian Protestants make music in
different ways and that people can tell them from one another. Surely
many will be able to confirm.

I can't hear mp3 from flac, so I'll be quiet.

[Willem Orange]

Yes ..please!!!! Now.... what does that statement mean - to me it sounds like nonsense.

[Roland van Gaalen]

Lionel Tacchini wrote:
> On 28.09.2013 07:31, Herman wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 28, 2013 2:10:31 AM UTC+2, RVG wrote:

> >> Celibidache followed the steps of Furtw�ngler who said that

> >> clarity
> >> should prevail in interpretation, and slowing tempos down often
> >> helps
> >> (in "Words and Music").
>
> > Obviously slowing down in many cases rather obscures the musical
> > discourse; it breaks up the rhythm, and it breaks up the melody.
>
> And it changes the character of the music, which is the main distortion.

I like Celibidache's distortions, I guess.

[Roland van Gaalen]

This begs the question.

I like Klemperer's recording of Mahler 7.

It's rather slow, but it works for me.

The music does not fall apart, as far as I am concerned.

That 'slowing down in many cases rather obscures the musical discourse ...' is irrelevant.

So are Mahler's intentions.

[RVG]

Le 28/09/2013 20:05, Roland van Gaalen a �crit :

> On Saturday, September 28, 2013 7:31:16 AM UTC+2, Herman wrote:
>> On Saturday, September 28, 2013 2:10:31 AM UTC+2, RVG wrote:

>>> Celibidache followed the steps of Furtw�ngler who said that

>>> clarity should prevail in interpretation, and slowing tempos down
>>> often helps (in "Words and Music").
>
>> Obviously slowing down in many cases rather obscures the musical
>> discourse; it breaks up the rhythm, and it breaks up the melody.
>
> This begs the question.
>
> I like Klemperer's recording of Mahler 7.
>
> It's rather slow, but it works for me.
>

I like his Beethoven cycle with EMI too, including the piano concertos
with the young Barenboim. Quite slow and incredibly majestic.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00004YA0S

> The music does not fall apart, as far as I am concerned.
>
> That 'slowing down in many cases rather obscures the musical
> discourse ...' is irrelevant.
>
> So are Mahler's intentions. -- Roland van Gaalen Cape Town
>

[Roland van Gaalen]

On Saturday, September 28, 2013 10:35:50 PM UTC+2, RVG wrote:

> Le 28/09/2013 20:05, Roland van Gaalen a �crit :

> > I like Klemperer's recording of Mahler 7.
>
> > It's rather slow, but it works for me.
>
> I like his Beethoven cycle with EMI too, including the piano concertos
> with the young Barenboim. Quite slow and incredibly majestic.

> ...

I agree.

And if somebody proved that the Klemperer touch (fast when he was manic? slow when he was depressed?) 'distorted' the composer's intentions, I would still llike his recordings. I like interpretive freedom.

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 28.09.2013 22:51, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> On Saturday, September 28, 2013 10:35:50 PM UTC+2, RVG wrote:
>

>> Le 28/09/2013 20:05, Roland van Gaalen a �crit :

>
>>> I like Klemperer's recording of Mahler 7.
>>
>>> It's rather slow, but it works for me.
>>
>> I like his Beethoven cycle with EMI too, including the piano
>> concertos with the young Barenboim. Quite slow and incredibly
>> majestic. ...
>
> I agree.
>
> And if somebody proved that the Klemperer touch (fast when he was
> manic? slow when he was depressed?) 'distorted' the composer's
> intentions, I would still llike his recordings. I like interpretive
> freedom. -- Roland van Gaalen Cape Town
>

I have developed a clear dislike for slowed down music over time. It
feels like telling me that the earth could be flat after all. Or maybe
it is the implied invitation to believe in profundity which I find
exasperating.

In any case, Klemperer's Mahler 7th doesn't work at all, nor does his
Bruckner 6th, the 1st movement being way off the mark. The one that
really works is that bastard recording hiding behind the name of
Cantieri. There's a curse on this piece ;-)

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 29.09.2013 08:27, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
> I have developed a clear dislike for slowed down music over time.

Not always, though. I just heard a recording of Schubert's Large C major
symphony in which the introduction is way below Andante and made to
produce a strong sense of foreboding mystery. Then it turns into a wild
crescendo and the rest of the movement is all furtw�nglerian frenzy,
tension and repose, gradually building up into one big closing statement.
Now here's the kind of interpretative freedom I like.

Here's the CD: http://www.amazon.de/dp/B00EYQ6FQ4

[Roland van Gaalen]

On Sunday, September 29, 2013 9:03:39 AM UTC+2, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
> On 29.09.2013 08:27, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
>
> > I have developed a clear dislike for slowed down music over time.

Perhaps this research is relevant:

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/166694-small-animals-see-the-world-in-slow-motion-or-why-your-puppy-is-so-hyperactive

[Lionel Tacchini]

How did you know?

--
Lionel Tacchini
At least, I'll be looking cute on the internet

[Roland van Gaalen]

On Sunday, September 29, 2013 12:48:31 PM UTC+2, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
> On 29.09.2013 12:40, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 29, 2013 9:03:39 AM UTC+2, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
> >> On 29.09.2013 08:27, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
> >>> I have developed a clear dislike for slowed down music over time.
> > Perhaps this research is relevant:
> > http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/166694-small-animals-see-the-world-in-slow-motion-or-why-your-puppy-is-so-hyperactive

Nothing personal!

Also see this week's Economist (paywall)
http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21586532-small-creatures-fast-metabolisms-see-world-action-replay-slo-mo

[M forever]

On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 11:17:03 AM UTC-4, RVG wrote:
> Le 25/09/2013 13:58, Herman a �crit :
>
> > On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 1:36:22 PM UTC+2, Lionel Tacchini
>
> > wrote:

>
> >> On 25.09.2013 12:24, RVG wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >>> Bruckner was a Southern Catholic from Austria, not one of these
>
> >>
>
> >>> Protestants from the cold mist of Prusse.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>

> >> Jochum was a northern Catholic from Bavaria, that must be the
>
> >> problem ;-)
>
> >>
>
> > That was indeed a pretty amazing stupid prejudice. But that's what
>
> > music is about for a lot of people.
>
> >
>
> > Jochum, together with Haitink, tuned me in to Bruckner.
>
> >
>
>
>
> I can understand that, his approach was quite monumental. But I think
>
> that apart from the 8th, Bruckner's music follows the other Austrian
>
> symphonists, especially Beethoven and Schubert, with the new orchestral
>
> instrument that was Wagner's philharmonic (and the fact that he composed
>
> on the organ and not the piano, like C�sar Franck).

Bruckner composed on a piano, not on the organ. Not surprisingly, he didn't have a church organ at home.

http://m5.paperblog.com/i/20/206423/a-visit-from-anton-bruckner-L-4UMuCt.jpeg

Nor did he orchestrate in an organ-like way at all.

Nor are most of his themes based on "Gregorian Chant".

And, as others have already pointed out, Eugen Jochum was not a Protestant from "the cold mists of Prusse (sic)".

You really don't know shit about Bruckner, his music and his interpreters. Please stop babbling.

[M forever]

On Saturday, September 28, 2013 7:25:07 AM UTC-4, Lionel Tacchini wrote:

> On 28.09.2013 13:00, Willem Orange wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, September 28, 2013 5:35:28 AM UTC-4, Bob Harper wrote:
>
> >> Note that Jochum was a Bavarian Catholic, not a Prussian
>
> >> Protestant--and his music-making sounds like it, to me at, least!
>
>
>
> >
>
> > What does that mean????
>
> >
>
>
>
> It means that Bavarian Catholic and Prussian Protestants make music in
>
> different ways and that people can tell them from one another. Surely
>
> many will be able to confirm.

No, that's just nonsense. Supposedly, Catholic interpreters tend to be more colorful, expressive, lively, on ceremony and incense, while Protestant are supposedly more concentrated on substance and analysis, but in reality, that is not the case. For instance, Günter Wand was Catholic and Furtwängler was Protestant (indeed a Protestant "from the cold mists of Prusse", as our ignorant friend "RVG" put it). And their respective styles completely contradict those stereotypes.

[gggg gggg]

On Tuesday, September 24, 2013 at 9:47:27 AM UTC-7, P wrote:
> I'm planning on investing in a symphony cycle for each of Mahler and Bruckner. I've got the Abravanel Mahler with the Utah SO ($3 Amazon "Big Mahler Box" download) which is a ridiculous value for money, but most reviews I've seen consider that set to be inferior to many other available recordings. So I'm thinking of upgrading to something better.
>

> I have no Bruckner recordings and would like to get a set.
>
> If you could only get one cycle of each, which would you get? Please make the trade-offs regarding completeness, versions, etc. (e.g. would you rather have set A's superior sound, or set B's slightly inferior sound but which includes Das Lied, or your preferred revision of Symphony X, etc.) as part of your recommendation, rather than recommending multiple sets.
>
> The only condition is that it has to be available in either CD or MP3 format, no LP or Laser Disc only issues.
>
> -P

https://www.talkclassical.com/threads/celibidache-and-mahler.69898/