Re: Messiaen

[JohnGavin]

On Sunday, March 28, 2021 at 5:46:24 AM UTC-4, dk wrote:
> Who do you like in Catalogue d'oiseaux and Vingt Regards?
>
> TIA
>
> dk

For the Regards - Stephen Osborne on Hyperion. This choice has as much to do with the sound engineering as with the performance. Just my personal taste, but I dislike any French piano music recorded in a dry acoustic. RCA ruined Peter Serkin’s recording by it’s clunky, bone dry engineering. I know that he played it admirably, having seen him perform them live at Alice Tully Hall in New York City around 1974 from memory.

For the Oiseaux, I’d go with Austbo on Naxos, although to be honest, I’ve never gotten into this work very deeply. Austbo is quite a fascinating pianist. His solo Ravel is definitely worth hearing.

[tonyh]

Current favourites for me are Martin Helmchen for a studio sound, and Jean- Rudolphe Kars for something quite special; live in the Concertgebouw in 1976 before he gave it all up for God.

[raymond....@gmail.com]

On Sunday, 28 March 2021 at 20:46:24 UTC+11, dk wrote:
> Who do you like in Catalogue d'oiseaux and Vingt Regards?
>
> TIA
>
> dk

Austbo is very good in Vingt Regards. I got rid of Messiaen's bird music.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <9e3975c0-849f-4c5c...@googlegroups.com>,

dk <dan....@gmail.com> wrote:
>Who do you like in Catalogue d'oiseaux and Vingt Regards?

I just turned to Aimard's new _Catalogue_ recording last week as
it happens....

[Henk vT]

Op zondag 28 maart 2021 om 11:46:24 UTC+2 schreef dk:

> Who do you like in Catalogue d'oiseaux and Vingt Regards?
>

> TIA
>
> dk

No likes in the category Catalogue. Ogdon is still a/the favorite in the Regards. So is Serkin. They make things happen. Osborne is better than I think he is. And there is Beroff. He's at his best in this kind of repertoire.

Henk

[Andy Evans]

Ogdon is still a/the favorite in the Regards. So is Serkin. They make things happen. Osborne is better than I think he is. And there is Beroff. He's at his best in this kind of repertoire. >> Henk

Beroff is my favourite here. Good performances from Loriod and Austbo. Serkin is good in parts but not in everything. Ogdon is interesting.

[Chris from Lafayette]

I certainly like Aimard's 2001 Teldec Vingt Regards too - especially in its 24/96 MCh incarnation on DVD-Audio. The engineering really liberates the sound source from the locations of your speakers - the piano is really out there in three-dimensional space.

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <79cc9943-b5ef-49df...@googlegroups.com>,

Chris from Lafayette <CSal...@operamail.com> wrote:
>I certainly like Aimard's 2001 Teldec Vingt Regards too - especially
>in its 24/96 MCh incarnation on DVD-Audio. The engineering really
>liberates the sound source from the locations of your speakers -
>the piano is really out there in three-dimensional space.

I went for the 24/96 download for _Catalogue d'oiseaux_ too. It's
also quite a nice, spacious sound, in this case on Pentatone. Piano
very clear.

[Andy Evans]

> how about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8A4LtuHjlM ?
> > dk
That Kars is nice - thanks for that. I find Beroff excellent in this. Very clear recording, and he sounds like he's playing jazz in places. It's clean and musical rather than reverential.

[Henk vT]

Op maandag 29 maart 2021 om 06:08:03 UTC+2 schreef dk:

> On Sunday, March 28, 2021 at 9:57:25 AM UTC-7, hvt...wrote:
> > Op zondag 28 maart 2021 om 11:46:24 UTC+2 schreef dk:
> > > Who do you like in Catalogue d'oiseaux and Vingt Regards?
> > > TIA
> >

> > No likes in the category Catalogue. Ogdon is still a/the favorite in
> > the Regards. So is Serkin. They make things happen. Osborne is
> > better than I think he is. And there is Beroff. He's at his best in
> > this kind of repertoire.

> how about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8A4LtuHjlM ?
>
> dk

Ugorski is one of the great complete versions of the Catalogue. I rather listen to the birds separately. These performances are often more inspired.
Kars is one of the good versions of the Vingt Regards. I miss something special, like the improvisational approach of Ogden, the clarity of Serkin, Osborne's control and young Beroff's drive. .

Henk

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <c7272881-585d-44d9...@googlegroups.com>,

Henk vT <hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>Ugorski is one of the great complete versions of the Catalogue.
>I rather listen to the birds separately.

Ugorski had been my recommendation before changing to Aimard. But
Ugorski does include _La fauvette de jardins_, which Aimard does
not. However, as per your suggestion, I hadn't really looked after
individual bird recordings....

[Mandryka]

I can only find two - Yuval Zorn and Helena Basilova.

This music, is it an example of what Stockhausen called Moment Form? Each bird is a sequence of distinct episodes - each episode with its own texture etc - and there’s nothing holding it all together? I’m not sure.

[Mandryka]

A friend of mine, a composer manqué here in The Smoke, once said that the ideal Regards would have a sense of mystery, that the Catholic ideas which Messiaen held to had it that there was something fundamentally ineffable about Christ, so when you consider him you would not really understand what you see.

This is probably horseshit, but I thought I’d mention it anyway.

[Henk vT]

Op dinsdag 30 maart 2021 om 11:44:51 UTC+2 schreef Mandryka:

It makes sense to me. Why else would Messiaen need (at least) 20 regards?

Henk

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <aff90aea-48ea-491f...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>This music, is it an example of what Stockhausen called Moment
>Form?

I don't personally hear this music via Stockhausen. However, it
does anticipate various concerns of environmental & even ambient
music.

>Each bird is a sequence of distinct episodes - each episode with
>its own texture etc - and there's nothing holding it all together?
>I'm not sure.

The form is built of textural-temporal contrasts, contrasted/juxtaposed
in symmetric blocks....

[Mandryka]

That's interesting because I hadn't noticed symmetry.

By moment form I just meant this Stockhausen quote which is on the wiki -- if there are symmetries then it's not moment form, I guess (without being totally sure.)

"neither aim at the climax, nor at prepared (and consequently expected) multiple climaxes, and the usual introductory, rising, transitional and fading-away stages are not delineated in a development curve encompassing the entire duration of the work. On the contrary, these forms are immediately intense and seek to maintain the level of continued "main points", which are constantly equally present, right up until they stop. In these forms a minimum or a maximum may be expected in every moment, and no developmental direction can be predicted with certainty from the present one; they have always already commenced, and could continue forever; in them either everything present counts, or nothing at all; and each and every Now is not unremittingly regarded as the mere consequence of the one which preceded it and as the upbeat to the coming one—in which one puts one's hope—but rather as something personal, independent and centred, capable of existing on its own. They are forms in which an instant does not have to be just a bit of a temporal line, nor a moment just a particle of a measured duration, but rather in which concentration on the Now—on every Now—makes vertical slices, as it were, that cut through a horizontal temporal conception to a timelessness I call eternity: an eternity that does not begin at the end of time but is attainable in every moment. I am speaking of musical forms in which apparently nothing less is being attempted than to explode (even to overthrow) the temporal concept—or, put more accurately: the concept of duration. . . .
In works of this kind the start and stop are open and yet they cease after a certain duration "

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <f4e92870-2e32-41a3...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>That's interesting because I hadn't noticed symmetry.

The symmetries are in blocks, ABA, ABBA, ABCBA, ABCBDBCBA etc.

Quoting Stockhausen:
>I am speaking of musical forms in which apparently nothing less
>is being attempted than to explode (even to overthrow) the temporal

>concept -- or, put more accurately: the concept of duration. . . .

I don't see how this fits Messiaen's bird pieces at all. One might
note e.g. that they incorporate time of day, etc. I mean, one could
presumably posit that exploding duration first involves maximal
embrace of duration, but.... I would call these very temporal works.

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <s406ij$umj$1...@hope.eyrie.org>,

Todd Michel McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:
>Quoting Stockhausen:
>>I am speaking of musical forms in which apparently nothing less
>>is being attempted than to explode (even to overthrow) the temporal
>>concept -- or, put more accurately: the concept of duration. . . .

Perhaps it's worth noting that I've come to hear Cage's _Five5_
more this way.... (It's interesting, of course, because the Number
Pieces are generally quite "durational.")

[Mandryka]

It’s true that in Messiaen’s commentaries each “moment” is linked to a time of day, and to a place. How much that helps with understanding the form of the music is another question!

[Mandryka]

Listening to a lot of AMM at the moment - there’s a connection!

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <ead89f01-10df-4fe8...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>It's true that in Messiaen's commentaries each "moment" is linked
>to a time of day, and to a place. How much that helps with
>understanding the form of the music is another question!

You can hear the time of day. These moments are thus linked in a
temporal spectrum across the cycle. The way these times/appearances
are arranged is then in a pattern across the cycle. In fact, the
small-scale patterns of the birdsong are reflected in the large-scale
juxtapositions of blocks/moments. Think of it as a sort of Book
of Hours, studiously arranged down to the particle, per a sort of
overall temporal tension....

[Mandryka]

You got a reference to something more detailed to read about this?

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <459284f9-eeec-48ca...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>You got a reference to something more detailed to read about this?

Sorry....

[Mandryka]

This is Messiaen’s notes for La Fauvette des Jardins

[quote] At the beginning of the score Messiaen describes the scene, reflecting the events, as they occur in the score:

Between the cliffs of the Obiou to the South and the spur of Chamechaude to the North lie four lakes: the Matheysine in Dauphiné. At the end of the great Lake Laffrey, at the foot of the mountain of the Grand Serre, to the East, are the fields of Petichet.

The end of June, the beginning of July. It is still night. The last waves of the great lake die down under the willows. The Grand Serre is there, with its patches of trees below its bald summit. Towards four in the morning the Quail is heard in Cretic rhythm. The Nightingale ends a verse: distant notes under the moon, an abruptly loud and victorious conclusion, long warbling until it is out of breath. The ash-trees look down on the reeds of the great lake. In the middle of the meadow the grey alders stand by the hazels.

Then dawn covers the sky, the fields, the meadow with pink. The great lake also turns pink. The song of the Garden Warbler, hidden in the ash-trees, the willows, the bushes by the great lake. Two first attempts, then a solo. The little Wren throws out some rapid, loud notes, with a trill in the middle of the verse. The Garden Warbler sings again, her voice limpid, always with new features.

Five o’clock in the morning. The arrival of the day turns the alder foliage silver, brings to life the scent of mauve mint and green grass. A Blackbird whistles. The Green Woodpecker laughs aloud. From the other side of the bank, near Lake Petichet, a Sky Lark rises up in the air, rejoicing with a piercing dominant. The Garden Warbler starts a new solo: its rapid vocalises, its tireless virtuosity, the regular flow of its discourse, seem to bring time to a halt…

Meanwhile, the morning grows on, and here is the threat of a storm. The great Lake Laffrey is divided into green and violet stripes. Two Chaffinches answer each other, with variations in their codetta. Suddenly a rasping, grating, sour voice rises in the reeds of the great lake, alternating heavy rhythms with shrill cries: it is the Great Reed Warbler. But the sun has returned, and there is another voice, unexpected, wonderfully gilded, rich in harmonics: it is a migratory Golden Oriole, coming to eat some cherries. The Garden Warbler continues its solos, interrupted now and again by the hoarse croaking of the Crows, the hard, dry alarms of the Red-Backed Shrike, the quivering cries of the Black Kite. The Grand Serre stands, with its great mass, against the elegant rise of the Swallows. In contrast to the unmoving bare mountain are the ripples in the water. The Garden Warbler sings and sings again, untiring. A new contrast: the flight of the Black Kite and the sudden calm of the great lake. The Kite climbs and descends, describing great spirals in the sky, and the circles of its flight interlock (the turns of its tail helping the movement of its wings), until it finally touches the surface of the water. The sun spreads light and warmth. These are the most beautiful hours of the afternoon, and the great lake extends its blue surface, with all shades of blue: peacock blue, azure, sapphire. The silence is only broken by the Chaffinches, the ringing sound of the Goldfinch, and the simple repeated note of the Yellowhammer. The heights of the mountain are green and gold…

Towards evening the Garden Warbler starts a solo again. The Blackcap, less of a virtuoso, has a more brilliant refrain, fluting and liquid in tone. After this refrain the voice of the Nightingale rises, announcing sunset. The sky turns red, orange, violet. The Crow and the Red-Backed Shrike give the alarm. The Green Woodpecker gives a last laugh. Night comes…

Nine o’clock in the evening. In the growing silence the double cry of the Tawny Owl is heard, wild and terrifying. The great lake is now feebly lit by the light of the moon. The silhouettes of the alders are quite black. Everything sinks into the great shadow of memory.

And the Grand Serre is always there, above the night…[/quote]

And Austbo helpfully divides it up into thee tracks, each one corresponding to about a third of the above text. So, for example, we don’t just have piano imitating birds, but also, for example, suggesting the movement of the water . . . It is episodic programme music.

That’s the way to make sense of these oiseaux pieces, I’m convinced of it. They are impressionist pieces, oriented around the scenes Messiaen wrote in the score.

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <6b177f21-9ab8-4b61...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>That's the way to make sense of these oiseaux pieces, I'm convinced
>of it. They are impressionist pieces, oriented around the scenes
>Messiaen wrote in the score.

_La Fauvette_ is a fuzzier / more impressionist piece. The 1950s
cycle has that sort of 1950s vibe, though, and the individual notes
are a little more... I dunno, obviously I struggle for the right
way to communicate here... "researched" (constrained), perhaps.
The individual patterns of the birdsong, the specific notes
repeating/not repeating are reflected in the "block" structure of
the cycle, as noted, for a linkage of small to large scale. _La
Fauvette_ is sort of an echo or evocation of this, but it's not a
cycle in the same way. (Times of day do still matter there though.)