Bruckner Symphony no. 3
Garry Garff
As someone who is new to Bruckner, I've been familiarizing myself with his
symphonies. I recently checked out of the library a CBS recording of his
Third Symphony (conducted by Kubelik), and I have a question regarding
editions of this symphony. On the cassette box, the following appears:
"Revised version of 1876-7; published 1878; edited by Fritz Oeser, 1950."
From what I understand, there are two other editions, the original of 1873
and a later one of 1889. Can anyone tell me what significant differences
exist between these three versions? I quite like the Oeser edition as
recorded by Kubelik, but perhaps one of the other editions is better. Any
comments (with recommended recordings) would be appreciated.
Garry
MWKluge
In article <01bd2051$8bdb8060$87dd...@ggarff.bookcraft>, "Garry Garff"
<gga...@theworkandtheglory.com> writes:
>Garry
Garry, you have stumbled into one of the most complex os the Bruckner version
issues. Six different scores of this symphony have been published! However,
you really only need to concern yourself with the three versions. The original
version of 1873 is the score that Bruckner showed to Wagner. It contains many
Wagner quotations, and Bruckner received Wagner's approval to dedicate the
score to him. This version was not performed or published in Bruckner's
lifetime (Keilberth first conducted this version in Dresden in 1946). Leopold
Nowak finally edited this version for publication in 1977.
Bruckner began tinkering with the symphony in 1874, and tried unsuccessfully to
have it performed in Vienna in 1875. The following year he rewrote the Adagio
second movement (Nowak has published the 1876 Adagio separately). In 1877 he
reworked the entire Symphony, and it was this version that he conducted in
Vienna on December 16, 1877. This concert resulted in a fiasco, as most of the
audience left during the performance. Because Bruckner's earlier concerts of
the First and Second Symphonies were relatively successful, it is likely that
the failure of the Third was due more to his embracing of Wagnerian ideals,
then unpopular in Vienna, than due to his skill (or lack thereof) as a
conductor. In any event, the Vienna publisher Theodor Raettig astonished the
dejected composer by offering to publish the symphony. Bruckner made some
minor revisions in January 1878, including a coda to the Scherzo. He
apparently decided not to include the coda in the published score, however.
Raettig's original edition is extremely rare, and has some other slight
differences from the manuscript score.
Fritz Oeser undertook a new edition of the 1878 version in 1950. It was based
primarily on the published 1878 score. Leopold Ludwig premiered this version
in Berlin in March 1952. Kubelik became one of its early advocates, conducting
it with the Concertgebouw in 1954 and many times later. In 1980, Leopold Nowak
prepared a new edition of the 1878 score, and included the never before heard
coda to the Scherzo.
Finally, in 1888, Bruckner once again addressed the Third. He waffled on this
revision, almost changing his mind when Mahler urged him to have the 1878 score
reprinted. Finally he took up the revision again, finishing the score in early
1889. Franz Schalk helped him with some of this process, but the final score
was approved by Bruckner. This version removed the last of the Wagner
references, shortened the Adagio and Finale, and is scored in Bruckner's later
style. This version was published by Raettig in 1890. Hans Richter conducted
it with the Vienna Philharmonic on December 21, 1890. This time, the success
was so great that Bruckner took 12 curtain calls. This last revision has been
the most popular version in concert and on record (although the final movement
is probably weakest in this version). Nowak edited a new publication of this
version in 1959, since the 1890 publication had a few very minor differences
from the manuscript. Interestingly, two of the differences in the published
score are passages that reverted back to the 1878 version! These two editions
are so close that Sony misidentified Szell's recording of the 1890 Raettig
edition as the Nowak edition.
Now to recordings. The 1873 score has been recorded three times that I know
of. Inbal and Norrington are readily available on CD. Of these, I prefer
Inbal. Norrington's "authentic" approach does not convince me that he
understands the Wagnerian influence on this score. A powerful recording by
Rozhdestvensky was available on LP, but I do not know of a CD release.
The 1878 Oeser score was recorded a few times. The 1952 Ludwig concert
performance even showed up on a cheapo Royale LP, under pseudonym. I think
that Kubelik is good, but he suffers from a rather congested early digital
recording. Haitink recorded Oeser in 1963, which I think is in his box of
Bruckner Symphonies. Jascha Horenstein preferred this edition, and the BBC has
a concert tape of a Horenstein performance. Most recent recordings have used
Nowak's edition of the 1878 score with the added coda. Asahina, Solti,
Sinopoli, Rahbari, Haitink (again), and Harnoncourt have all done this edition.
Of these, I prefer Asahina on JVC. That CD is hard to find, however, and he
more recently recorded the 1889 score.
The 1889 version has been recorded countless times. Many "big" Bruckner names
including Jochum, Karajan, Szell, Wand, as well as historical conductors like
Knappertsbusch, used this score (in either its 1890 or 1959 edition). I like
the Jochum Dresden recording on EMI Forte, coupled with the Seventh, as well as
the very cheap Laserlight CD conducted by Hartmut Haenchen. Wand's Hamburg
recording is another reasonable choice.
I hope this helps.
Mark K.
Jose Oscar Marques
On 13 Jan 98 18:29:26 GMT "Garry Garff" <gga...@theworkandtheglory.com>
wrote in article <01bd2051$8bdb8060$87dd...@ggarff.bookcraft>:
>As someone who is new to Bruckner, I've been familiarizing myself with his
>symphonies. I recently checked out of the library a CBS recording of his
>Third Symphony (conducted by Kubelik), and I have a question regarding
>editions of this symphony. On the cassette box, the following appears:
>"Revised version of 1876-7; published 1878; edited by Fritz Oeser, 1950."
>From what I understand, there are two other editions, the original of 1873
>and a later one of 1889. Can anyone tell me what significant differences
>exist between these three versions? I quite like the Oeser edition as
>recorded by Kubelik, but perhaps one of the other editions is better. Any
>comments (with recommended recordings) would be appreciated.
MWKluge has already posted a very good answer to your questions. If you
want to see a short summary of the several versions of Bruckner's
symphonies look at:
http://www.unicamp.br/~jmarques/mus/bruckner.htm
--
Jose Oscar Marques
(to reply by e-mail remove the "X" from my address)
Eric Schissel
For reasons I'm not sure I understand, I rather liked Harnoncourt's
Bruckner 3 on Teldec when I heard it.
Don't recall what version that was.
-Eric Schissel
John Harkness
John Harkness writes:
Me too, and it's the 1877 Novak edition.
John
George Murnu
He will perform this season the fourth symphony with the Vienna Symphony
( Wiener Symphoniker ) in Konzerthaus. perhaps a recording will be
made?
Werner Sun
Garry Garff wrote:
>
> As someone who is new to Bruckner, I've been familiarizing myself with his
> symphonies. I recently checked out of the library a CBS recording of his
> Third Symphony (conducted by Kubelik), and I have a question regarding
> editions of this symphony. On the cassette box, the following appears:
> "Revised version of 1876-7; published 1878; edited by Fritz Oeser, 1950."
> From what I understand, there are two other editions, the original of 1873
> and a later one of 1889. Can anyone tell me what significant differences
> exist between these three versions? I quite like the Oeser edition as
> recorded by Kubelik, but perhaps one of the other editions is better. Any
> comments (with recommended recordings) would be appreciated.
>
I recently picked up a very exciting live recording of Celibidache
conducting the Sueddeutscher Rundfunks Orch. on Exclusive. This was in
the Tower cutout bin for only 3.99. Lots of grunting, presumably from
Celi, as the climaxes approach. Unfortunately, documentation is
minimal, so I can't say for sure which version was used.
--
Werner Sun | s...@cithe502.cithep.caltech.edu
ALHelmbr
"Garry Garff" <gga...@theworkandtheglory.com> wrote:
>As someone who is new to Bruckner, I've been familiarizing myself with his
>symphonies. I recently checked out of the library a CBS recording of his
>Third Symphony (conducted by Kubelik), and I have a question regarding
>editions of this symphony. On the cassette box, the following appears:
>"Revised version of 1876-7; published 1878; edited by Fritz Oeser, 1950."
>From what I understand, there are two other editions, the original of 1873
>and a later one of 1889. Can anyone tell me what significant differences
>exist between these three versions? I quite like the Oeser edition as
>recorded by Kubelik, but perhaps one of the other editions is better. Any
>comments (with recommended recordings) would be appreciated.
The differences in the 1873 score are so marked that it's really almost a
completely different work. I would heartily recommend the (recently) late
Robert Simpson's book, in its most recent published version, where he argues
quite convincingly for the 1873 version being the best of them all. There is a
pretty good recording with Inbal conducting this version. Also, Roger
Norrington and the London Classical Players recently recorded it (I haven't
heard that one -- reviews were mixed, as it was apparently very very fast). As
for particular differences, I find the 1873 finale to be particularly
effective. There is one detail that Bruckner really messed up in 1877 -- the
seemingly meaningless quote of the 2nd theme of the first movement near the
end, all by itself. In the original 1873 version, this is just one of a series
of Beethoven 9th type (or Bruckner 5th like) quotes of various themes from
earlier in the work. The effect is not as sublime as what Bruckner was really
capable of, but it at least makes sense, which is much more than you can say
for that point in the 1877 score. Of course, there are improvements in 1877,
like the tightening up of the opening of the first movement.
The 1888 version -- much maligned by Simpson and many other Bruckner scholars
-- has much to recommend it in the opening movement, IMO. While it is true that
Bruckner introduced greater harmonic sophistication, in the manner of the 8th
that he was working on at that time, I find the result effective, not
schizophrenic, as some suggest. However, the finale is really spoiled by a
really uneffective truncation of the recapitulation. The effect of the cuts is
to make the coda to the finale sound completely premature and forced.
However, don't take my word for it -- listen for yourself. Many conductors,
including my favorite Brucknerian, Eugen Jochum, have tended to prefer the
1888 version, warts and all.
A footnote on the 1877 version: there are two editions -- one by Oeser, that
you mention, and another edition edited by Leopold Nowak. They are really two
different editions of Bruckner's same version. The biggest difference is that
Nowak uncovered a coda to be played after the da capo of the scherzo, while
Oeser's edition has an unmodified repeat of the scherzo. I remember reading
(but not where) that there was a note, "not to be printed" on the coda, but
that Nowak must have decided that the handwriting was either not Bruckner's, or
did not represent his final wishes. At any rate, this is not a major point, and
any performance of an 1877 version (Oeser or Nowak) is more or less the same
work.
August Helmbright
Eric Schissel
I seem to recall a review in Fanfare some years back advocating use of the
2nd of the several versions (1877, no?), going into detail as to the first
movement's prophetic-of-later-tendencies "block"
structure...writing-about-music done well, IMHO (there's certainly been
enough examples in the world of it done badly.)
-Eric Schissel
Lani Spahr
Werner Sun wrote:
> I recently picked up a very exciting live recording of Celibidache
> conducting the Sueddeutscher Rundfunks Orch. on Exclusive. This was in
> the Tower cutout bin for only 3.99. Lots of grunting, presumably from
> Celi, as the climaxes approach. Unfortunately, documentation is
> minimal, so I can't say for sure which version was used.
This Celi recording is an 1888/89 thorough revision by Bruckner with
Josef & Franz Schalk, editted by Raettig[1890] (there are minor
differences to the Nowak edition - but don't ask me what they are :-})
--
Cheers,
Lani Spahr
David Griegel
MWKluge (mwk...@aol.com) wrote:
: The 1878 Oeser score was recorded a few times. The 1952 Ludwig concert
: performance even showed up on a cheapo Royale LP, under pseudonym. I think
: that Kubelik is good, but he suffers from a rather congested early digital
: recording. Haitink recorded Oeser in 1963, which I think is in his box of
: Bruckner Symphonies. Jascha Horenstein preferred this edition, and the BBC has
: a concert tape of a Horenstein performance. Most recent recordings have used
: Nowak's edition of the 1878 score with the added coda. Asahina, Solti,
: Sinopoli, Rahbari, Haitink (again), and Harnoncourt have all done this edition.
: Of these, I prefer Asahina on JVC. That CD is hard to find, however, and he
: more recently recorded the 1889 score.
There are a few more recordings of the Oeser edition (or Nowak's edition
of the 1877 version without the Scherzo coda). There's Dohnanyi/
Cleveland, which is available from the Musical Heritage Society in the US
and Decca elsewhere in the world. It's on a two-disc set coupled with the
Bruckner Eighth (Haas edition). Also available is Barenboim's recording
with the Berlin Philharmonic on Teldec. Barenboim, having cut the Scherzo
coda, makes up for it partially by throwing in two extra bars at the end
of the Finale.
Dave
--------------------------------------------------------------
David Griegel E-mail: dkg@h?n?c.com
(Remove the question marks to get the correct E-mail address.)
Hiroshi Amari
MWKluge (mwk...@aol.com) wrote:
: Now to recordings. The 1873 score has been recorded three times that I know
: of. Inbal and Norrington are readily available on CD. Of these, I prefer
: Inbal. Norrington's "authentic" approach does not convince me that he
: understands the Wagnerian influence on this score. A powerful recording by
: Rozhdestvensky was available on LP, but I do not know of a CD release.
My understanding of music is quite limited. I assume that an authentic
approach is meant to respect the composer's intentions. Bruckner's case
seems complex.
On one hand, Bruckner had to compromise his composition to suit the local
taste, in this case that of Vienna. On the other hand, he had his own
standard which might have been independent of the temporal and local
tastes. At the end of his life, he would have preferred the one out of his
conviction (the latter). I wonder if Bruckner 3rd could have multiple
'authentic' versions rather than the one that reflects his vision most
clearly in retrospect.
Finally, Bruckner is said to have 'radical linearity' which is similar to
Bach. What is 'linear' about his music?? His music (I've heard 4th, 5th,
6th, 8th and 9th) sounds like a full-bodied architecture that has a
stable center of gravity.
Thanks in advance.
--
Hiroshi Amari
MWKluge
In article <34BF12...@cithe502.cithep.caltech.edu>, Werner Sun
<s...@cithe502.cithep.caltech.edu> writes:
>Garry Garff wrote:
>
> As someone who is new to Bruckner, I've been familiarizing myself with his
> symphonies. I recently checked out of the library a CBS recording of his
> Third Symphony (conducted by Kubelik), and I have a question regarding
> editions of this symphony. On the cassette box, the following appears:
> "Revised version of 1876-7; published 1878; edited by Fritz Oeser, 1950."
> From what I understand, there are two other editions, the original of 1873
> and a later one of 1889. Can anyone tell me what significant differences
> exist between these three versions? I quite like the Oeser edition as
> recorded by Kubelik, but perhaps one of the other editions is better. Any
> comments (with recommended recordings) would be appreciated.
>
> Garry
>I recently picked up a very exciting live recording of Celibidache conducting
the >Sueddeutscher Rundfunks Orch. on Exclusive. This was in the Tower cutout
bin for >only 3.99. Lots of grunting, presumably from Celi, as the climaxes
approach. >Unfortunately, documentation is minimal, so I can't say for sure
which version was >used.
--
>Werner Sun |
>s...@cithe502.cithep.caltech.edu
Celibidache used the 1889 score, edited by Nowak. The date of this performance
on Exclusive, from a concert which included the Haydn Symphony no. 104, was
November 25, 1980.
Mark K.
laurent....@rss.rockwell.com
In article <34BD95...@erols.com>,
He has already played it with the Concertgebouw, and from what I
understood from somebody who attented this concert, it has already been
recorded (live, as for the 3rd symphony), and we just have to wait a
little now. I would predict a late spring release, but I may be
completely wrong. By the way, it seems - still from the same source- that
this concert was wonderful, and therefore I am expecting something as
good as the #3 recording. The only bad news about it is that it seems
that Harnoncourt will not play any Bruckner with the Concertgebouw in 98,
(I couldn't find anything in their listings), and therefore we will have
to wait even more time to have any of the other symphonies. The good nes
is taht he will play Dvorak 7 (or 8), and I imagine that we probably will
get a recording out of it. It is going to be interesting.
Laurent Planchon
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
MWKluge
In article <34BFB2...@hpanvs.an.hp.com>, Lani Spahr
<sp...@hpanvs.an.hp.com> writes:
>Werner Sun wrote:
> I recently picked up a very exciting live recording of Celibidache
> conducting the Sueddeutscher Rundfunks Orch. on Exclusive.
>This was in the Tower cutout bin for only 3.99. Lots of grunting,
>presumably from Celi, as the climaxes approach. Unfortunately,
>documentation is minimal, so I can't say for sure which version was
>used.
>This Celi recording is an 1888/89 thorough revision by Bruckner with
>Josef & Franz Schalk, editted by Raettig[1890] (there are minor
>differences to the Nowak edition - but don't ask me what they are :-})
Celi uses the Nowak edition of the 1889 score, not the Raettig edition. The
differences are indeed minor, but plainly audible (I have both scores).
Mark K.
MWKluge
>
Werner Sun wrote:
> I recently picked up a very exciting live recording of Celibidache
> conducting the Sueddeutscher Rundfunks Orch. on Exclusive.
>This was in the Tower cutout bin for only 3.99. Lots of grunting,
>presumably from Celi, as the climaxes approach. Unfortunately,
>documentation is minimal, so I can't say for sure which version was
>used.
>This Celi recording is an 1888/89 thorough revision by Bruckner
>with Josef & Franz Schalk, editted by Raettig[1890] (there are
>minor differences to the Nowak edition - but don't ask me what they are
>:-})
--
>Cheers,
>Lani Spahr
Someone *is* no doubt going to ask, so here are a few examples to show that
Celi uses the Nowak edition, not Raettig: First movement, 3:43, lead-in to the
second theme. The Raettig score indicates a crescendo here in the winds (bar
100), but Celi decrescendos. Same movement, 15:25, transition to the
recapitulation. Here the Raettig score has the first horns modulate to the
dominant A. In Nowak, and in the celi performance, the horns stop playing in
bar 429. The Raettig score reverted to the 1878 scoring in this instance.
First movement, bars 505-6 (18:23). The Raettig score has a brief clarinet
solo here, not heard in Nowak (nor in Celibidache's performance).
Mark K.