Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
How many well-known conductors, pianists etc were alcoholics?
1,912 views
Skip to first unread message
Andy Evans
Nov 13, 2017, 11:19:04 AM11/13/17
to
This is probably something that's mostly off the record, and maybe a lot of stories are anecdotal or unsubstantaiet. But when a promising career tails off without obvious reason, one thing that comes to mind is the demon drink.
Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
graham
Nov 13, 2017, 11:30:29 AM11/13/17
to
On 2017-11-13 9:19 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> This is probably something that's mostly off the record, and maybe a lot of stories are anecdotal or unsubstantaiet. But when a promising career tails off without obvious reason, one thing that comes to mind is the demon drink.
>
> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
>
Samson François comes to mind and I think Barbirolli was fond of his tipple.
> This is probably something that's mostly off the record, and maybe a lot of stories are anecdotal or unsubstantaiet. But when a promising career tails off without obvious reason, one thing that comes to mind is the demon drink.
>
> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
>
Andy Evans
Nov 13, 2017, 11:38:32 AM11/13/17
to
> Samson François comes to mind and I think Barbirolli was fond of his tipple.
A number of musicians took up drink to combat extreme performance anxiety, then couldn't kick the habit.
Amongst composer/performers I've seen several mentioned - Beethoven, Liszt, Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Mussorgsky, Sibelius.... There were a few reasons why some of those found drink a refuge - syphilis, deafness etc.
AB
Nov 13, 2017, 11:42:09 AM11/13/17
to
AB
howie...@btinternet.com
Nov 13, 2017, 11:44:32 AM11/13/17
to
Mengelberg, at least someone once said that to me,
gggg...@gmail.com
Nov 13, 2017, 12:42:06 PM11/13/17
to
On Monday, November 13, 2017 at 6:19:04 AM UTC-10, Andy Evans wrote:
> This is probably something that's mostly off the record, and maybe a lot of stories are anecdotal or unsubstantaiet. But when a promising career tails off without obvious reason, one thing that comes to mind is the demon drink.
>
> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
Steber and Bjorling.
> This is probably something that's mostly off the record, and maybe a lot of stories are anecdotal or unsubstantaiet. But when a promising career tails off without obvious reason, one thing that comes to mind is the demon drink.
>
> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
Bozo
Nov 13, 2017, 1:31:11 PM11/13/17
to
Moiseiwitsch , after death of his wife.
Frank Berger
Nov 13, 2017, 2:18:23 PM11/13/17
to
On 11/13/2017 11:44 AM, howie...@btinternet.com wrote:
> Mengelberg, at least someone once said that to me,
>
Well I guess that proves it.
> Mengelberg, at least someone once said that to me,
>
boombox
Nov 13, 2017, 2:42:59 PM11/13/17
to
On Monday, November 13, 2017 at 11:19:04 AM UTC-5, Andy Evans wrote:
> This is probably something that's mostly off the record, and maybe a lot of stories are anecdotal or unsubstantaiet. But when a promising career tails off without obvious reason, one thing that comes to mind is the demon drink.
>
> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
Well, Lenny, especially in the later years. Franz Konwitschny was nicknamed "Kon-Whiskey."
> This is probably something that's mostly off the record, and maybe a lot of stories are anecdotal or unsubstantaiet. But when a promising career tails off without obvious reason, one thing that comes to mind is the demon drink.
>
> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
Ricardo Jimenez
Nov 13, 2017, 5:14:16 PM11/13/17
to
been drunk every day. Horn play Franz Strauss said that Wagner came
to a rehearsal so tight he almost fell off the podium.
Frank Berger
Nov 13, 2017, 5:24:42 PM11/13/17
to
Wait. Never mind. I don't care.
stanpu...@gmail.com
Nov 13, 2017, 7:30:19 PM11/13/17
to
Wyn Morris
MickeyBoy
Nov 13, 2017, 8:01:06 PM11/13/17
to
> >
> Samson François comes to mind and I think Barbirolli was fond of his tipple.
Not an alcoholic, I'd say, but a gentlemen of discrimination.
Bozo
Nov 13, 2017, 9:38:41 PM11/13/17
to
>On Monday, November 13, 2017 at 4:14:16 PM UTC-6, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> Stravinsky was said to have
> been drunk every day.
A day without wine is a day without sunshine.
> Stravinsky was said to have
> been drunk every day.
Wisdom from WC Fields :
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her.
Once, during Prohibition, I was forced to live for days on nothing but food and water.
You can't trust water: Even a straight stick turns crooked in it.
I never worry about being driven to drink; I just worry about being driven home.
graham
Nov 13, 2017, 9:44:29 PM11/13/17
to
the best he'd feel all day?
Message has been deleted
Andrew Clarke
Nov 14, 2017, 4:34:41 AM11/14/17
to
On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 3:19:04 AM UTC+11, Andy Evans wrote:
> This is probably something that's mostly off the record, and maybe a lot of stories are anecdotal or unsubstantaiet. But when a promising career tails off without obvious reason, one thing that comes to mind is the demon drink.
>
> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
Constant Lambert, who died of it in his forties.
> This is probably something that's mostly off the record, and maybe a lot of stories are anecdotal or unsubstantaiet. But when a promising career tails off without obvious reason, one thing that comes to mind is the demon drink.
>
> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
E. J. Moeran who died of it in his fifties.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
jeffc
Nov 14, 2017, 6:04:01 AM11/14/17
to
Alcohol serves two purposes as we age -- as a legally available (most of the time) non-prescription anesthetic and as fuel for creativity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_teetotalers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_teetotalers
Bozo
Nov 14, 2017, 8:20:18 AM11/14/17
to
>On Monday, November 13, 2017 at 8:44:29 PM UTC-6, graham wrote:
> Wasn't it Sinatra who said that when a tee-totaller arose, that that was
> the best he'd feel all day?
I think Dean Martin said he'd hate to wake up in the morning knowing that was as good as he'd feel all day. Martin was in Sinatra's " rat pack."
> Wasn't it Sinatra who said that when a tee-totaller arose, that that was
> the best he'd feel all day?
Bozo
Nov 14, 2017, 8:26:10 AM11/14/17
to
>On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 5:04:01 AM UTC-6, jeffc wrote:
> Alcohol serves two purposes as we age -- as a legally available (most of the time) non-prescription >anesthetic and as fuel for creativity.
Final Fields' :
> Alcohol serves two purposes as we age -- as a legally available (most of the time) non-prescription >anesthetic and as fuel for creativity.
I cook with wine. Sometimes , I even add it to the food.
Start every day off with a smile and get it over with.
Bob Harper
Nov 14, 2017, 10:20:08 AM11/14/17
to
On 11/14/17 5:26 AM, Bozo wrote:
>> On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 5:04:01 AM UTC-6, jeffc wrote:
>> Alcohol serves two purposes as we age -- as a legally available (most of the time) non-prescription >anesthetic and as fuel for creativity.
>
> Final Fields' :
>
> I cook with wine. Sometimes , I even add it to the food.
>
I have a kitchen apron that bears that legend. Seems quite sensible to me :)
>> On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 5:04:01 AM UTC-6, jeffc wrote:
>> Alcohol serves two purposes as we age -- as a legally available (most of the time) non-prescription >anesthetic and as fuel for creativity.
>
> Final Fields' :
>
> I cook with wine. Sometimes , I even add it to the food.
>
Bob Harper
(snip)
Russ (not Martha)
Nov 14, 2017, 12:39:07 PM11/14/17
to
Glazunov.
Russ (not Martha)
Russ (not Martha)
boombox
Nov 14, 2017, 1:21:33 PM11/14/17
to
On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 12:39:07 PM UTC-5, Russ (not Martha) wrote:
> Glazunov.
>
> Russ (not Martha)
Shostakovich spoke of Glazunov at his desk, leaning down occasionally so that he could take a sip from a concealed pipe that was connected to a tank of booze.
> Glazunov.
>
> Russ (not Martha)
Shostakovich spoke of Glazunov at his desk, leaning down occasionally so that he could take a sip from a concealed pipe that was connected to a tank of booze.
graham
Nov 14, 2017, 2:32:35 PM11/14/17
to
Graham
Frank Berger
Nov 14, 2017, 2:35:56 PM11/14/17
to
Message has been deleted
Frank Berger
Nov 14, 2017, 4:54:37 PM11/14/17
to
On 11/14/2017 4:19 PM, dk wrote:
> Then you probably don't understand the Russian
> and Eastern European cultures and socio-economic
> environments. In those parts of the world, many
> people grew accustomed to drink more alcohol
> than water! I know this first hand as I was
> born and raised on the other side of the Iron
> Curtain. Not drinking (much) alcohol is the
> exception rather than the rule.
>
> dk
>
I defer to your expertise, though there is a difference
between drinking (even a lot) and alcoholism, which was the
original question.
> and Eastern European cultures and socio-economic
> environments. In those parts of the world, many
> people grew accustomed to drink more alcohol
> than water! I know this first hand as I was
> born and raised on the other side of the Iron
> Curtain. Not drinking (much) alcohol is the
> exception rather than the rule.
>
> dk
>
I defer to your expertise, though there is a difference
between drinking (even a lot) and alcoholism, which was the
original question.
Message has been deleted
Bozo
Nov 14, 2017, 6:48:25 PM11/14/17
to
>On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 4:33:41 PM UTC-6, dk wrote:
>Drinking a lot everyday and all the time leads to
> alcoholism.
You're probably correct , but at age 69 I'll take my chances.
" If I had my life to live over again, I'd live it over a saloon."
WC Fields.
>Drinking a lot everyday and all the time leads to
> alcoholism.
You're probably correct , but at age 69 I'll take my chances.
" If I had my life to live over again, I'd live it over a saloon."
WC Fields.
Frank Berger
Nov 14, 2017, 6:55:55 PM11/14/17
to
Saturday), is that red wine seems to aggravate my GERD more
than it used to and gives me a headache also. One glass is
about my limit.
Frank Berger
Nov 14, 2017, 6:58:13 PM11/14/17
to
On 11/14/2017 5:33 PM, dk wrote:
>
Known risk factors for alcoholism include having:
more than 15 drinks per week if you're male.
more than 12 drinks per week if you're female.
more than five drinks per day at least once a week
(binge drinking)
a parent with alcoholism.
a mental health problem, such as depression, anxiety,
or schizophrenia.
> On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 1:54:37 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 11/14/2017 4:19 PM, dk wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 11:35:56 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> On 11/14/2017 1:21 PM, boombox wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 12:39:07 PM UTC-5, Russ (not Martha) wrote:
>>>>>> Glazunov.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Russ (not Martha)
>>>>>
>>>>> Shostakovich spoke of Glazunov at his desk, leaning down occasionally so that he could take a sip from a concealed pipe that was connected to a tank of booze.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can't help wondering how much of this apocrypha is false.
>>>
>>> Then you probably don't understand the Russian
>>> and Eastern European cultures and socio-economic
>>> environments. In those parts of the world, many
>>> people grew accustomed to drink more alcohol
>>> than water! I know this first hand as I was
>>> born and raised on the other side of the Iron
>>> Curtain. Not drinking (much) alcohol is the
>>> exception rather than the rule.
>>
>> On 11/14/2017 4:19 PM, dk wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 11:35:56 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> On 11/14/2017 1:21 PM, boombox wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 12:39:07 PM UTC-5, Russ (not Martha) wrote:
>>>>>> Glazunov.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Russ (not Martha)
>>>>>
>>>>> Shostakovich spoke of Glazunov at his desk, leaning down occasionally so that he could take a sip from a concealed pipe that was connected to a tank of booze.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can't help wondering how much of this apocrypha is false.
>>>
>>> Then you probably don't understand the Russian
>>> and Eastern European cultures and socio-economic
>>> environments. In those parts of the world, many
>>> people grew accustomed to drink more alcohol
>>> than water! I know this first hand as I was
>>> born and raised on the other side of the Iron
>>> Curtain. Not drinking (much) alcohol is the
>>> exception rather than the rule.
>>
>> I defer to your expertise, though there is a difference
>> between drinking (even a lot) and alcoholism, which was the
>> original question.
>
>> between drinking (even a lot) and alcoholism, which was the
>> original question.
>
> Drinking a lot everyday and all the time leads to
> alcoholism.
>
> dk
> alcoholism.
>
>
Known risk factors for alcoholism include having:
more than 15 drinks per week if you're male.
more than 12 drinks per week if you're female.
more than five drinks per day at least once a week
(binge drinking)
a parent with alcoholism.
a mental health problem, such as depression, anxiety,
or schizophrenia.
Bob Harper
Nov 14, 2017, 10:11:22 PM11/14/17
to
Bob Harper
Herman
Nov 15, 2017, 1:59:51 AM11/15/17
to
On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 10:54:37 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> I defer to your expertise, though there is a difference
> between drinking (even a lot) and alcoholism, which was the
> original question.
Frank's question was totally legit. A lot of these stories about conuctors and soloists are made up, handed down dozens of times over and embellished.
>
> I defer to your expertise, though there is a difference
> between drinking (even a lot) and alcoholism, which was the
> original question.
Saying 'but these people are Russians!' is just about the worst stereotype.
A lot of names mentioned here were not Russian.
Message has been deleted
Herman
Nov 15, 2017, 7:11:09 AM11/15/17
to
On Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 9:42:22 AM UTC+1, dk wrote:
> >
> > Frank's question was totally legit. A lot of
> > these stories about conductors and soloists
> >
> > Frank's question was totally legit. A lot of
> > are made up, handed down dozens of times over
> > and embellished.
> >
> > Saying 'but these people are Russians!' is
> > just about the worst stereotype.
> >
> > A lot of names mentioned here were not Russian.
>
> You have clearly not lived in Eastern Europe.
> > and embellished.
> >
> > Saying 'but these people are Russians!' is
> > just about the worst stereotype.
> >
> > A lot of names mentioned here were not Russian.
>
> There are vast swaths of land were alcoholism
> is endemic. Stop lecturing about political
> correctness and reconnect with reality.
>
> dk
Booze may or may not have affected your brain.
Whether or not there is (or was) a lot of drinking in Russia has no bearings on, ofr instance, whether Barbirolli was drinking. He was not born or raised in Russia.
Samson Francois, another performer mentioned here, was French, as you may or may not know.
Obviously I could mention dozens of Russian-born performers who are no drinkers, but I don't see why I should since this thread is not about your obsessions.
Frank Berger
Nov 15, 2017, 7:17:27 AM11/15/17
to
On 11/15/2017 3:42 AM, dk wrote:
you describe no doubt accurately, and the specific examples
given. It may be that some of them are well-documented, but
I wouldn't know because no documentation has been offered.
> On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 10:59:51 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
>> On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 10:54:37 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I defer to your expertise, though there is a difference
>>> between drinking (even a lot) and alcoholism, which was the
>>> original question.
>>
>> Frank's question was totally legit. A lot of
>> these stories about conductors and soloists
>> On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 10:54:37 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I defer to your expertise, though there is a difference
>>> between drinking (even a lot) and alcoholism, which was the
>>> original question.
>>
>> Frank's question was totally legit. A lot of
>> are made up, handed down dozens of times over
>> and embellished.
>>
>> Saying 'but these people are Russians!' is
>> just about the worst stereotype.
>>
>> A lot of names mentioned here were not Russian.
>
>> and embellished.
>>
>> Saying 'but these people are Russians!' is
>> just about the worst stereotype.
>>
>> A lot of names mentioned here were not Russian.
>
> You have clearly not lived in Eastern Europe.
> There are vast swaths of land were alcoholism
> is endemic. Stop lecturing about political
> correctness and reconnect with reality.
>
> dk
>
You are not distinguishing between the general case, which
> There are vast swaths of land were alcoholism
> is endemic. Stop lecturing about political
> correctness and reconnect with reality.
>
> dk
>
you describe no doubt accurately, and the specific examples
given. It may be that some of them are well-documented, but
I wouldn't know because no documentation has been offered.
Da TM
Nov 15, 2017, 8:56:04 AM11/15/17
to
Art Tatum
Steven Bornfeld
Nov 15, 2017, 11:14:49 AM11/15/17
to
subject. Are you followed by a gastroenterologist for the GERD?
Steve
Neil
Nov 15, 2017, 11:45:32 AM11/15/17
to
On Monday, 13 November 2017 22:14:16 UTC, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 08:19:01 -0800 (PST), Andy Evans
> <performan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There must have been plenty of composers. Stravinsky was said to have
> been drunk every day. Horn play Franz Strauss said that Wagner came
> to a rehearsal so tight he almost fell off the podium.
Read Isherwood's diaries. Isherwood probably drank more than Stravinsky on their regular dinners.
> On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 08:19:01 -0800 (PST), Andy Evans
> <performan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There must have been plenty of composers. Stravinsky was said to have
> been drunk every day. Horn play Franz Strauss said that Wagner came
> to a rehearsal so tight he almost fell off the podium.
Read Isherwood's diaries. Isherwood probably drank more than Stravinsky on their regular dinners.
Frank Berger
Nov 15, 2017, 12:06:47 PM11/15/17
to
Frank Berger
Nov 15, 2017, 12:07:14 PM11/15/17
to
On 11/15/2017 11:14 AM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
Bozo
Nov 15, 2017, 12:27:52 PM11/15/17
to
>On Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 10:14:49 AM UTC-6, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>You probably shouldn't read the recent medical literature on the
> subject. Are you followed by a gastroenterologist for the GERD?
From WebMD site :
>You probably shouldn't read the recent medical literature on the
> subject. Are you followed by a gastroenterologist for the GERD?
" Avoiding foods and beverages that can weaken the LES is often recommended. These foods include chocolate, peppermint, fatty foods, coffee, and alcoholic beverages. Foods and beverages that can irritate a damaged esophageal lining, such as citrus fruits and juices, tomato products, and pepper, should also be avoided if they cause symptoms."
Egads, what's left that's fun to eat ?
Steven Bornfeld
Nov 15, 2017, 5:52:18 PM11/15/17
to
that they may be totally valid as public health measures and may not
have much importance depending on your specific situation. You didn't
hear that much about Barrett's esophagus before they introduced proton
pump inhibitors--and these are not all innocuous drugs. OTOH, alcohol
has long been known to be related to many oral, pharyngeal and
esophageal tumors, esophageal varices,liver and pancreatic problems and
other lovely conditions. (So is smoking, of course). But although the
new recommendations state that even light alcohol intake confers SOME
additional risk, unless you are a heavy drinker or have other medical
conditions, light to moderate drinking is not that risky. And if you
don't already have a damaged esophagus, reasonable moderation in all the
above is all you're likely to need to keep out of trouble--at least the
trouble THEY are likely to get you into.
I think most of us are now old enough that we're starting to see our
contemporaries dying. That's what we get for living long enough.
Steve
Bozo
Nov 15, 2017, 6:02:47 PM11/15/17
to
>On Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 4:52:18 PM UTC-6, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> I think most of us are now old enough that we're starting to see our
> contemporaries dying. That's what we get for living long enough.
Thanks for your perspectives.
> I think most of us are now old enough that we're starting to see our
> contemporaries dying. That's what we get for living long enough.
Indeed,from my high school days, 6 or 7 of my best friends are gone ; from college,grad school days,3-4.
Think I'll have a glass of cheap shiraz, now , while I can.
Frank Berger
Nov 15, 2017, 9:57:57 PM11/15/17
to
gggg...@gmail.com
Nov 16, 2017, 11:01:13 AM11/16/17
to
On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 10:42:22 PM UTC-10, dk wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 10:59:51 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 10:59:51 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 10:54:37 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I defer to your expertise, though there is a difference
> > > between drinking (even a lot) and alcoholism, which was the
> > > original question.
> >
> > Frank's question was totally legit. A lot of
> > these stories about conductors and soloists
> >
> > >
> > > I defer to your expertise, though there is a difference
> > > between drinking (even a lot) and alcoholism, which was the
> > > original question.
> >
> > Frank's question was totally legit. A lot of
> > are made up, handed down dozens of times over
> > and embellished.
> >
> > Saying 'but these people are Russians!' is
> > just about the worst stereotype.
> >
> > A lot of names mentioned here were not Russian.
>
> > and embellished.
> >
> > Saying 'but these people are Russians!' is
> > just about the worst stereotype.
> >
> > A lot of names mentioned here were not Russian.
>
> You have clearly not lived in Eastern Europe.
> There are vast swaths of land were alcoholism
> is endemic...
> There are vast swaths of land were alcoholism
Wouldn't Hillary say that the Midwest is also like that and that that is just another reason why she lost the (hic!) election?
Bozo
Nov 16, 2017, 12:45:48 PM11/16/17
to
>On Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:01:13 AM UTC-6, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
>Wouldn't Hillary say that the Midwest is also like that and that that is just another reason why she lost the >>(hic!) election?
Hillary lost the fly-over country because most of it is white.
>Wouldn't Hillary say that the Midwest is also like that and that that is just another reason why she lost the >>(hic!) election?
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/16/opinion/trump-white-voting.html
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Al Eisner
Nov 16, 2017, 4:23:03 PM11/16/17
to
--
Al Eisner
gggg...@gmail.com
Nov 21, 2017, 2:05:25 PM11/21/17
to
On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 10:42:22 PM UTC-10, dk wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 10:59:51 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 10:59:51 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 10:54:37 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I defer to your expertise, though there is a difference
> > > between drinking (even a lot) and alcoholism, which was the
> > > original question.
> >
> > Frank's question was totally legit. A lot of
> > these stories about conductors and soloists
> >
> > >
> > > I defer to your expertise, though there is a difference
> > > between drinking (even a lot) and alcoholism, which was the
> > > original question.
> >
> > Frank's question was totally legit. A lot of
> > are made up, handed down dozens of times over
> > and embellished.
> >
> > Saying 'but these people are Russians!' is
> > just about the worst stereotype.
> >
> > A lot of names mentioned here were not Russian.
>
> > and embellished.
> >
> > Saying 'but these people are Russians!' is
> > just about the worst stereotype.
> >
> > A lot of names mentioned here were not Russian.
>
> You have clearly not lived in Eastern Europe.
> There are vast swaths of land were alcoholism
> There are vast swaths of land were alcoholism
> is endemic. Stop lecturing about political
> correctness and reconnect with reality.
>
> dk
"The Real Problem with Putin's Russia: Vodka":
> correctness and reconnect with reality.
>
> dk
http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/151951
Terry
Nov 23, 2017, 8:36:32 AM11/23/17
to
On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 9:24:42 AM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>
> >> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
> Wait. Never mind. I don't care.
Thanks, Frank.
> On 11/13/2017 5:14 PM, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> > On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 08:19:01 -0800 (PST), Andy Evans
> > <performan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> This is probably something that's mostly off the record, and maybe a lot of stories are anecdotal or unsubstantaiet. But when a promising career tails off without obvious reason, one thing that comes to mind is the demon drink.
> > On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 08:19:01 -0800 (PST), Andy Evans
> > <performan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
> >
> > There must have been plenty of composers. Stravinsky was said to have
> > been drunk every day. Horn play Franz Strauss said that Wagner came
> > to a rehearsal so tight he almost fell off the podium.
> >
>
> How many were opium addicts? Pedophiles? Bed wetters?
> > There must have been plenty of composers. Stravinsky was said to have
> > been drunk every day. Horn play Franz Strauss said that Wagner came
> > to a rehearsal so tight he almost fell off the podium.
> >
>
> Wait. Never mind. I don't care.
Thanks, Frank.
Message has been deleted
drh8h
Nov 23, 2017, 10:37:41 PM11/23/17
to
On Monday, November 13, 2017 at 11:19:04 AM UTC-5, Andy Evans wrote:
> This is probably something that's mostly off the record, and maybe a lot of stories are anecdotal or unsubstantaiet. But when a promising career tails off without obvious reason, one thing that comes to mind is the demon drink.
>
> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
More than once Leslie Heward has been mentioned in this regard. He died relatively young of TB.
> This is probably something that's mostly off the record, and maybe a lot of stories are anecdotal or unsubstantaiet. But when a promising career tails off without obvious reason, one thing that comes to mind is the demon drink.
>
> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
Dennis
Frank Berger
Nov 23, 2017, 11:15:35 PM11/23/17
to
with alcohol. Can you provide a reference? I do see
references to his having suffered from asthma as well as the
TB that killed him.
drh8h
Nov 26, 2017, 9:38:28 PM11/26/17
to
Dennis
Frank Berger
Nov 27, 2017, 12:45:51 PM11/27/17
to
had the Hallé permanently but succumbed to two forms of
consumption (whisky and lungs)."
Of course, it's still an unsubstantiated accusation. My
reaction to this sort of thing is that it's entirely
possible, maybe probable, but I remain skeptical.
drh8h
Nov 27, 2017, 4:50:59 PM11/27/17
to
Dennis
Roland van Gaalen
Nov 28, 2017, 1:35:49 PM11/28/17
to
On Monday, November 13, 2017 at 5:19:04 PM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:
> This is probably something that's mostly off the record, and maybe a lot of stories are anecdotal or unsubstantaiet. But when a promising career tails off without obvious reason, one thing that comes to mind is the demon drink.
>
> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
Follow-up questions
> This is probably something that's mostly off the record, and maybe a lot of stories are anecdotal or unsubstantaiet. But when a promising career tails off without obvious reason, one thing that comes to mind is the demon drink.
>
> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
1 how many were psychopaths
2 how many were lunatics
Message has been deleted
Frank Berger
Nov 28, 2017, 4:48:00 PM11/28/17
to
On 11/28/2017 3:46 PM, dk wrote:
> Enteric coated extended release chocolate! ;-)
>
> dk
>
When I had an upper GI about 5 years ago, after having had
reflux for years and years, the doc seemed quite stunned
that my esophagus was in such pristine condition. I asked
him if perhaps the vast quantities of Tums and Gaviscons
that I consume perhaps have protected it, he shrugged and
said maybe.
>
> dk
>
When I had an upper GI about 5 years ago, after having had
reflux for years and years, the doc seemed quite stunned
that my esophagus was in such pristine condition. I asked
him if perhaps the vast quantities of Tums and Gaviscons
that I consume perhaps have protected it, he shrugged and
said maybe.
Bozo
Jan 29, 2018, 3:13:04 PM1/29/18
to
>On Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 5:02:47 PM UTC-6, Bozo wrote:
>Think I'll have a glass of cheap shiraz, now , while I can.
Great, less wine under $ 9 / bottle being sold means more of cheap wine left for me , at possibly even lower prices !!
>Think I'll have a glass of cheap shiraz, now , while I can.
https://tinyurl.com/yd3es5k4
gggg...@gmail.com
Mar 15, 2018, 3:03:34 PM3/15/18
to
gggg gggg
Feb 10, 2021, 12:19:06 AM2/10/21
to
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000pp7p
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
gggg gggg
Aug 9, 2021, 1:23:24 AM8/9/21
to
On Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 12:42:22 AM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 10:59:51 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 10:54:37 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I defer to your expertise, though there is a difference
> > > between drinking (even a lot) and alcoholism, which was the
> > > original question.
> >
> > Frank's question was totally legit. A lot of
> > these stories about conductors and soloists
> > are made up, handed down dozens of times over
> > and embellished.
> >
> > Saying 'but these people are Russians!' is
> > just about the worst stereotype.
> >
> > A lot of names mentioned here were not Russian.
> You have clearly not lived in Eastern Europe.
> There are vast swaths of land were alcoholism
> is endemic. Stop lecturing about political
> correctness and reconnect with reality.
>
> dk
(Youtube upload):
> On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 10:59:51 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 10:54:37 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I defer to your expertise, though there is a difference
> > > between drinking (even a lot) and alcoholism, which was the
> > > original question.
> >
> > Frank's question was totally legit. A lot of
> > these stories about conductors and soloists
> > are made up, handed down dozens of times over
> > and embellished.
> >
> > Saying 'but these people are Russians!' is
> > just about the worst stereotype.
> >
> > A lot of names mentioned here were not Russian.
> You have clearly not lived in Eastern Europe.
> There are vast swaths of land were alcoholism
> is endemic. Stop lecturing about political
> correctness and reconnect with reality.
>
> dk
Russia's Alcohol Problem
gggg gggg
Dec 3, 2021, 2:45:35 AM12/3/21
to
On Monday, November 13, 2017 at 6:19:04 AM UTC-10, Andy Evans wrote:
> This is probably something that's mostly off the record, and maybe a lot of stories are anecdotal or unsubstantaiet. But when a promising career tails off without obvious reason, one thing that comes to mind is the demon drink.
>
> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical/c/l-GsRtYMfrA
> This is probably something that's mostly off the record, and maybe a lot of stories are anecdotal or unsubstantaiet. But when a promising career tails off without obvious reason, one thing that comes to mind is the demon drink.
>
> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
Message has been deleted
Dan Koren
Dec 3, 2021, 4:38:33 AM12/3/21
to
On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 4:32:18 AM UTC-5, Herman wrote:
> The above gggg post is one of those in
> which the link brings you to another gggg
> link post. A claustrophobic gggg linkbot
> universe.
> I checked the Rec Classical Music group on
> which gggg posted this dead "Alcohol' topic.
> That group solely consists of dead on arrival
> gggg topics and the Italian scare posts about
> pedophiles.
> The group is a ghost town just like gggg wants
> it. Him and nobody else.
We should set up a separate newsgroup for gggg,
Marc S, and Melmoth. They have a lot to talk about
among themselves.
How about rec.music.classical.recordings.ocd?
dk
> The above gggg post is one of those in
> which the link brings you to another gggg
> link post. A claustrophobic gggg linkbot
> universe.
> I checked the Rec Classical Music group on
> which gggg posted this dead "Alcohol' topic.
> That group solely consists of dead on arrival
> gggg topics and the Italian scare posts about
> pedophiles.
> The group is a ghost town just like gggg wants
> it. Him and nobody else.
We should set up a separate newsgroup for gggg,
Marc S, and Melmoth. They have a lot to talk about
among themselves.
How about rec.music.classical.recordings.ocd?
dk
MELMOTH
Dec 3, 2021, 6:59:53 AM12/3/21
to
Dan Koren avait prétendu :
cannot accept...
I demand an immediate apology...
> We should set up a separate newsgroup for gggg,
> Marc S, and Melmoth. They have a lot to talk about
> among themselves.
To put me on the same level as gggggggggg is a serious insult that I
> Marc S, and Melmoth. They have a lot to talk about
> among themselves.
cannot accept...
I demand an immediate apology...
JohnGavin
Dec 3, 2021, 7:05:26 AM12/3/21
to
On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 3:38:01 AM UTC-5, Herman wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 9:35:06 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
>
> > Rostropovich imbibed vast amounts of wodka, all the time. Bernstein got stupifyingly drunk after the show, smoked like a smokestack, was clearly hungover at rehearsals, and people loved him for it. Neither was kept from an international career due to alcohol.
> If you watch those Bernstein masterclass videos and the one with the youth orchestra in Germany on youtube, you see the picture of a hungover alcoholic.
>
> Imagine how this man must have smelled by that time in his life, exuding nicotine and alcohol thru every pore.
If someone starts a thread entitled “Which Classical Musician Smelled The Worst” we’ll know it’s time to shut the group down.
> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 9:35:06 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
>
> > Rostropovich imbibed vast amounts of wodka, all the time. Bernstein got stupifyingly drunk after the show, smoked like a smokestack, was clearly hungover at rehearsals, and people loved him for it. Neither was kept from an international career due to alcohol.
> If you watch those Bernstein masterclass videos and the one with the youth orchestra in Germany on youtube, you see the picture of a hungover alcoholic.
>
> Imagine how this man must have smelled by that time in his life, exuding nicotine and alcohol thru every pore.
If someone starts a thread entitled “Which Classical Musician Smelled The Worst” we’ll know it’s time to shut the group down.
Andrew Clarke
Dec 6, 2021, 7:20:33 AM12/6/21
to
On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 11:05:26 PM UTC+11, JohnGavin wrote:
> If someone starts a thread entitled “Which Classical Musician Smelled The Worst” we’ll know it’s time to shut the group down.
Especially if the musician had been dead for years and nobody'd noticed ...
> If someone starts a thread entitled “Which Classical Musician Smelled The Worst” we’ll know it’s time to shut the group down.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
JohnGavin
Dec 6, 2021, 11:36:37 AM12/6/21
to
Dan Koren
Dec 15, 2021, 12:48:27 AM12/15/21
to
your assistant tomorrow morning
at 6 am in the Bois de Vincennes,
and I will tazer you.
dk
Owen
Dec 15, 2021, 11:02:24 PM12/15/21
to
-Owen
Message has been deleted
gggg gggg
Dec 16, 2021, 1:44:54 AM12/16/21
to
On Monday, November 13, 2017 at 8:19:04 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
> This is probably something that's mostly off the record, and maybe a lot of stories are anecdotal or unsubstantaiet. But when a promising career tails off without obvious reason, one thing that comes to mind is the demon drink.
>
> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
Aren't addiction problems (e.g., alcoholism, drug abuse) more prevalent among non-classical performers (e.g., jazz, rock, pop) than among classical performers?
> This is probably something that's mostly off the record, and maybe a lot of stories are anecdotal or unsubstantaiet. But when a promising career tails off without obvious reason, one thing that comes to mind is the demon drink.
>
> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
Dan Koren
Dec 16, 2021, 3:09:14 AM12/16/21
to
after having been tazered
this morning by a drone! ;-)
dk
Dan Koren
Dec 16, 2021, 3:11:18 AM12/16/21
to
On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 1:44:54 AM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
>
> Aren't addiction problems (e.g., alcoholism,
> drug abuse) more prevalent among non-
< classical performers (e.g., jazz, rock, pop)
> than among classical performers?
Such a perfect expresssion
>
> Aren't addiction problems (e.g., alcoholism,
> drug abuse) more prevalent among non-
< classical performers (e.g., jazz, rock, pop)
> than among classical performers?
of class and race prejudice!
dk
MELMOTH
Dec 17, 2021, 2:10:30 AM12/17/21
to
Il se trouve que Dan Koren a formulé :
musket, and my two witnesses...
As I expected, you obviously chickened out...
Not only do you have a crappy taste, but you also show a melodramatic
cowardice...
But should we be surprised ?...I do not ask the question...
> Just show up with your sword and
> your assistant tomorrow morning
> at 6 am in the Bois de Vincennes,
> and I will tazer you.
I waited for you in the Bois de Vincennes...With my crossbow and my
> your assistant tomorrow morning
> at 6 am in the Bois de Vincennes,
> and I will tazer you.
musket, and my two witnesses...
As I expected, you obviously chickened out...
Not only do you have a crappy taste, but you also show a melodramatic
cowardice...
But should we be surprised ?...I do not ask the question...
Dan Koren
Dec 17, 2021, 6:45:02 PM12/17/21
to
On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 6:58:13 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> Known risk factors for alcoholism include having:
>
> more than 15 drinks per week if you're male.
> more than 12 drinks per week if you're female.
> more than five drinks per day at least once a week
> (binge drinking)
> a parent with alcoholism.
> a mental health problem, such as depression, anxiety,
> or schizophrenia.
Genius doesn't count?
dk
>
> Known risk factors for alcoholism include having:
>
> more than 15 drinks per week if you're male.
> more than 12 drinks per week if you're female.
> more than five drinks per day at least once a week
> (binge drinking)
> a parent with alcoholism.
> a mental health problem, such as depression, anxiety,
> or schizophrenia.
Genius doesn't count?
dk
Dan Koren
Dec 17, 2021, 6:50:20 PM12/17/21
to
On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 2:10:30 AM UTC-5, MELMOTH wrote:
> Il se trouve que Dan Koren a formulé :
> > Just show up with your sword and
> > your assistant tomorrow morning
> > at 6 am in the Bois de Vincennes,
> > and I will tazer you.
>
> I waited for you in the Bois de Vincennes...
> With my crossbow and my
> musket, and my two witnesses...
> As I expected, you obviously chickened out...
> Not only do you have a crappy taste, but
> you also show a melodramatic cowardice...
My drone hovered above your head.
> Il se trouve que Dan Koren a formulé :
> > Just show up with your sword and
> > your assistant tomorrow morning
> > at 6 am in the Bois de Vincennes,
> > and I will tazer you.
>
> I waited for you in the Bois de Vincennes...
> With my crossbow and my
> musket, and my two witnesses...
> As I expected, you obviously chickened out...
> Not only do you have a crappy taste, but
> you also show a melodramatic cowardice...
It decided not to tazer you since you
were obviously not prepared. Muskets
are so passé. I don't recall they were
ever used as legitimate duel weapons.
dk
ronl
Dec 18, 2021, 6:14:02 PM12/18/21
to
Dan Koren
Apr 6, 2022, 1:20:03 AM4/6/22
to
On Monday, November 13, 2017 at 8:19:04 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
>
> This is probably something that's mostly off the record,
Slurred notes tend to be quite noticeable.
>
> This is probably something that's mostly off the record,
> and maybe a lot of stories are anecdotal or unsubstantaiet.
> But when a promising career tails off without obvious reason,
> one thing that comes to mind is the demon drink.
>
> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some
> of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky
> and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't -
> they're just some names that should maybe have had more
> substantial international careers, and there could have been
> any number of reasons for that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK7l55ZOVIc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEjKwh-oeqk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiSctWh5TF4
gggg gggg
Apr 6, 2022, 1:26:59 AM4/6/22
to
On Monday, November 13, 2017 at 8:19:04 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
> This is probably something that's mostly off the record, and maybe a lot of stories are anecdotal or unsubstantaiet. But when a promising career tails off without obvious reason, one thing that comes to mind is the demon drink.
>
> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
Didn't Eleanor Steber have alcoholism problems?
> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
drh8h
Apr 7, 2022, 4:35:54 PM4/7/22
to
Two other likely alcoholics: soprano Marie Collier, who fell or jumped to her death and had been drinking; conductor Walter Hendl, who never achieved the success some thought his talents promised.
Frank Berger
Apr 7, 2022, 5:40:01 PM4/7/22
to
a) other artists, musical or otherwise
b) anyone else
Is there evidence? There is clearly a selectivity bias problem. When a famous person develops a problem everyone finds out. Not so with John Doe. Maybe I should say Joe Schmo, since John Does seem to end up in the morgue for some reason.
gggg gggg
Apr 21, 2022, 1:51:16 AM4/21/22
to
On Monday, November 13, 2017 at 8:19:04 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
> This is probably something that's mostly off the record, and maybe a lot of stories are anecdotal or unsubstantaiet. But when a promising career tails off without obvious reason, one thing that comes to mind is the demon drink.
>
> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
Has Bjorling been mentioned?
> This is probably something that's mostly off the record, and maybe a lot of stories are anecdotal or unsubstantaiet. But when a promising career tails off without obvious reason, one thing that comes to mind is the demon drink.
>
> Could be any nationality of course, but I'm curious about some of the Russians. Artists like Rozhtestvensky, Gauk, Sofronitsky and others. I have absolutely no idea if these guys drank or didn't - they're just some names that should maybe have had more substantial international careers, and there could have been any number of reasons for that.
gggg gggg
Apr 21, 2022, 4:41:24 AM4/21/22
to
Christopher Howell
Apr 22, 2022, 1:40:27 AM4/22/22
to
Here is the story of Willy Ferrero, the Italian boy conductor who might have had a great career as an adult, but failed to do so because of alcoholism:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Apr/Forgotten_artists_26_Ferrero.pdf
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Apr/Forgotten_artists_26_Ferrero.pdf
gggg gggg
Apr 3, 2023, 1:13:16 PM4/3/23
to
gggg gggg
Jul 13, 2023, 12:59:28 PM7/13/23
to
On Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 4:11:09 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
"How Vodka ruined Russia"
> On Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 9:42:22 AM UTC+1, dk wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Frank's question was totally legit. A lot of
> > > these stories about conductors and soloists
> > > are made up, handed down dozens of times over
> > > and embellished.
> > >
> > > Saying 'but these people are Russians!' is
> > > just about the worst stereotype.
> > >
> > > A lot of names mentioned here were not Russian.
> >
> > You have clearly not lived in Eastern Europe.
> > There are vast swaths of land were alcoholism
> > is endemic. Stop lecturing about political
> > correctness and reconnect with reality.
> >
> > dk
(Y. upload):
>
> > >
> > > Frank's question was totally legit. A lot of
> > > these stories about conductors and soloists
> > > are made up, handed down dozens of times over
> > > and embellished.
> > >
> > > Saying 'but these people are Russians!' is
> > > just about the worst stereotype.
> > >
> > > A lot of names mentioned here were not Russian.
> >
> > You have clearly not lived in Eastern Europe.
> > There are vast swaths of land were alcoholism
> > is endemic. Stop lecturing about political
> > correctness and reconnect with reality.
> >
> > dk
"How Vodka ruined Russia"
0 new messages