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the cult of Fluffy
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William Sommerwerck
Jun 22, 2014, 12:30:01 PM6/22/14
to
Those with nothing better to do with their time might wish to read the
comments following this review.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R3AGDMTRKI5JBO?ref_=pe_780071_41837251
comments following this review.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R3AGDMTRKI5JBO?ref_=pe_780071_41837251
Gerard
Jun 22, 2014, 1:00:00 PM6/22/14
to
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message news:lo70ab$6vj$1...@dont-email.me...
Those with nothing better to do with their time might wish to read the
comments following this review.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R3AGDMTRKI5JBO?ref_=pe_780071_41837251
Why? Because you participate in it - with your "but few serious listeners
consider him" wisdom?
Marc P.
Jun 22, 2014, 11:43:57 PM6/22/14
to
Marc Perman
Steve de Mena
Jun 23, 2014, 3:00:35 AM6/23/14
to
RMCR and I wish it would be put to bed.
Steve
Christopher Webber
Jun 23, 2014, 3:18:18 AM6/23/14
to
On 23/06/2014 08:00, Steve de Mena wrote:
> No one ever called Karajan "Fluffy". I think that originated here in RMCR
It did not. According to his biographer Richard Osborne, His Aachen
> No one ever called Karajan "Fluffy". I think that originated here in RMCR
(1937) admirer Helene Merzenich called him Fluffy, the name stuck, and
lots of real people - as distinct from to RMCR posters - have enjoyed
using it.
Ray Hall
Jun 23, 2014, 4:25:58 AM6/23/14
to
Philips Duo, but for me it is the lemon of Tchaik's symphonies. The
piece doesn't cohere for me like the others.
Ray Hall, Taree
Johannes Roehl
Jun 23, 2014, 5:14:10 AM6/23/14
to
Am 23.06.2014 10:25, schrieb Ray Hall:
refer to the finale which starts as a polonaise) it is maybe the most
"German" of his symphonies, with the "german dance" probably a nod to
Schumann's "Rhenish" symphony, but the whole symphony is not weighty
enough for that. And it mostly lacks the melancholy/slavic features that
make his other symphonies so attractive. The swagger of the final
polonaise would be fitting in one of the ballets, but for me it does not
serve well for a longish symphonic movement.
---
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> Marc P. wrote:
>> I just listened to HvK's recording of Tchaikovsky's "Polish" symphony
>> this afternoon, a stunning recording that almost makes me like the piece.
>
>> I just listened to HvK's recording of Tchaikovsky's "Polish" symphony
>> this afternoon, a stunning recording that almost makes me like the piece.
>
> I've never liked this piece either. Markevitch does a decent job on a
> Philips Duo, but for me it is the lemon of Tchaik's symphonies. The
> piece doesn't cohere for me like the others.
Yes, this piece is a strange mix, IMO. Despite the title (which seems to
> Philips Duo, but for me it is the lemon of Tchaik's symphonies. The
> piece doesn't cohere for me like the others.
refer to the finale which starts as a polonaise) it is maybe the most
"German" of his symphonies, with the "german dance" probably a nod to
Schumann's "Rhenish" symphony, but the whole symphony is not weighty
enough for that. And it mostly lacks the melancholy/slavic features that
make his other symphonies so attractive. The swagger of the final
polonaise would be fitting in one of the ballets, but for me it does not
serve well for a longish symphonic movement.
---
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tomdeacon
Jun 23, 2014, 6:26:12 AM6/23/14
to
post.
Clearly that person, like many who post here, bravely "anonymous", was
trying to provoke a reaction and he succeeded.
I heard HvK and his Berliners in the four Brahms symphonies, Strauss'
Alpine Symphony and Stravinsky's Apollon Musagète, and Mahler 9. Four of
the most incredible musical experiences of my life without any question at
all.
Anyone who tries to demean the genius that was HvK will have to, in my
case, find that experience worthless. Quite a challenge.
--
TD
John Wiser
Jun 23, 2014, 6:54:30 AM6/23/14
to
"Ray Hall" <raymon...@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:lo8oan$45f$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
It's ballet music, Ray, coherence isn't on the table.
Long ago, when folks had only one ear,
a Beecham/RPO recording was quite persusasive.
jdw
Long ago, when folks had only one ear,
a Beecham/RPO recording was quite persusasive.
jdw
Steve de Mena
Jun 23, 2014, 7:00:44 AM6/23/14
to
Steve
gggg...@gmail.com
Jun 23, 2014, 7:03:49 AM6/23/14
to
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=karajan+glutinous
Steve de Mena
Jun 23, 2014, 7:04:29 AM6/23/14
to
On 6/23/14, 3:26 AM, tomdeacon wrote:
> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Those with nothing better to do with their time might wish to read the
>> comments following this review.
>>
>> http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R3AGDMTRKI5JBO?ref_=pe_780071_41837251
>
> I have to agree with the majority of the comments regarding the initial
> post.
>
> Clearly that person, like many who post here, bravely "anonymous", was
> trying to provoke a reaction and he succeeded.
>
> I heard HvK and his Berliners in the four Brahms symphonies, Strauss'
> Alpine Symphony and Stravinsky's Apollon Musagète, and Mahler 9. Four of
> the most incredible musical experiences of my life without any question at
> all.
Same here. Heard the same works except only 2 Brahms Symphonies plus 2
> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Those with nothing better to do with their time might wish to read the
>> comments following this review.
>>
>> http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R3AGDMTRKI5JBO?ref_=pe_780071_41837251
>
> I have to agree with the majority of the comments regarding the initial
> post.
>
> Clearly that person, like many who post here, bravely "anonymous", was
> trying to provoke a reaction and he succeeded.
>
> I heard HvK and his Berliners in the four Brahms symphonies, Strauss'
> Alpine Symphony and Stravinsky's Apollon Musagète, and Mahler 9. Four of
> the most incredible musical experiences of my life without any question at
> all.
Beethoven symphonies. At Pasadena's Ambassador Auditorium, a last
minute change when their original destination for the concerts (Mexico
City) canceled.
Steve
Steve de Mena
Jun 23, 2014, 7:09:11 AM6/23/14
to
On 6/23/14, 12:18 AM, Christopher Webber wrote:
called his entire life by a single person and consider all of those as
well known nicknames for him.
Steve
gggg...@gmail.com
Jun 23, 2014, 7:13:42 AM6/23/14
to
- ...Many post-Second World War conductors converted [Tchaikovsky's] work into a glutinous syrup - "especially Herbert von Karajan, who should have been shot for the disservice he performed"...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/3662573/How-did-Tchaikovsky-die.html
Christopher Webber
Jun 23, 2014, 7:17:26 AM6/23/14
to
On 23/06/2014 12:09, Steve de Mena wrote:
> Wow, so someone in 1937 called him that. Let's find every name he was
> called his entire life by a single person and consider all of those as
> well known nicknames for him.
The difference was that the nickname stuck. It's been in common (and
> Wow, so someone in 1937 called him that. Let's find every name he was
> called his entire life by a single person and consider all of those as
> well known nicknames for him.
affectionate) usage for over seventy five years. Just because *you* have
only encountered "Fluffy" on RMCR is your tough luck.
Herman
Jun 23, 2014, 7:45:03 AM6/23/14
to
At least you're consistently stupid in various places.
John Wiser
Jun 23, 2014, 8:10:06 AM6/23/14
to
"Christopher Webber" <zarz...@zarzuela.invalid.net> wrote in message
news:c0qgm8...@mid.individual.net...
RMCR isn't even a microcosm. It's a nanocosm, and not a fair sampling.
jdw
news:c0qgm8...@mid.individual.net...
jdw
Willem Orange
Jun 23, 2014, 8:23:40 AM6/23/14
to
tomdeacon
Jun 23, 2014, 8:30:05 AM6/23/14
to
--
TD
Christopher Webber
Jun 23, 2014, 8:30:20 AM6/23/14
to
On 23/06/2014 13:10, John Wiser wrote:
> RMCR isn't even a microcosm. It's a nanocosm, and not a fair sampling.
Yes. I certainly like the idea of describing Mr de Mena as a nanocosm,
> RMCR isn't even a microcosm. It's a nanocosm, and not a fair sampling.
and will try to think of him as one in the future, as he is neither fair
nor representative. If he hasn't heard of something - whether it be a
nickname or an important recorded legacy - then it doesn't exist!
Willem Orange
Jun 23, 2014, 8:31:53 AM6/23/14
to
Christopher Webber
Jun 23, 2014, 8:36:19 AM6/23/14
to
On 23/06/2014 13:31, Willem Orange replied to me:
ostriches in the world as well as eagles and sparrows.
>> Yes. I certainly like the idea of describing Mr de Mena as a nanocosm,
>> and will try to think of him as one in the future, as he is neither fair
>> nor representative. If he hasn't heard of something - whether it be a
>> nickname or an important recorded legacy - then it doesn't exist!
>
> That is odd, isn't it???
>
Yes - in every sense of the word! Still, I suppose there have to be
>> and will try to think of him as one in the future, as he is neither fair
>> nor representative. If he hasn't heard of something - whether it be a
>> nickname or an important recorded legacy - then it doesn't exist!
>
> That is odd, isn't it???
>
ostriches in the world as well as eagles and sparrows.
tomdeacon
Jun 23, 2014, 8:40:33 AM6/23/14
to
or used. My first encounter of the term was here.
I don't have a view on the subject per se. People are free to use whatever
terms they wish. I prefer HvK.
--
TD
Christopher Webber
Jun 23, 2014, 8:48:53 AM6/23/14
to
On 23/06/2014 13:40, tomdeacon wrote:
> I agree with Steve. The use of "Fluffy" to refer to HvK is NOT widely known
> or used. My first encounter of the term was here.
Opinions aside, the fact of the matter is, that it has been in wide use
> I agree with Steve. The use of "Fluffy" to refer to HvK is NOT widely known
> or used. My first encounter of the term was here.
for many years - at least here in Europe. I first heard it in
Manchester, in the late 1960's, when I was a mere stripling.
Terry
Jun 23, 2014, 9:18:20 AM6/23/14
to
In article
<1060745260425211648.1328...@news.individual.net>,
<1060745260425211648.1328...@news.individual.net>,
tomdeacon <david...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > Those with nothing better to do with their time might wish to read the
> > comments following this review.
> >
> > http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R3AGDMTRKI5JBO?ref_=pe_780071_41837251
>
> I have to agree with the majority of the comments regarding the initial
> post.
>
> Clearly that person, like many who post here, bravely "anonymous", was
> trying to provoke a reaction and he succeeded.
>
> I heard HvK and his Berliners in the four Brahms symphonies, Strauss'
> Alpine Symphony and Stravinsky's Apollon Musag�te, and Mahler 9. Four of
> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > Those with nothing better to do with their time might wish to read the
> > comments following this review.
> >
> > http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R3AGDMTRKI5JBO?ref_=pe_780071_41837251
>
> I have to agree with the majority of the comments regarding the initial
> post.
>
> Clearly that person, like many who post here, bravely "anonymous", was
> trying to provoke a reaction and he succeeded.
>
> I heard HvK and his Berliners in the four Brahms symphonies, Strauss'
> the most incredible musical experiences of my life without any question at
> all.
>
> Anyone who tries to demean the genius that was HvK will have to, in my
> case, find that experience worthless. Quite a challenge.
I couldn't agree more.
> all.
>
> Anyone who tries to demean the genius that was HvK will have to, in my
> case, find that experience worthless. Quite a challenge.
Frank Berger
Jun 23, 2014, 10:50:07 AM6/23/14
to
for the usage of "fluffy." Something in print perhaps. That might
convince Steve. I don't recall him being so unreasonably intractable in
the past, do I? Aside, perhaps, from his nit-picking much of what
Matthew says.
---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com
Willem Orange
Jun 23, 2014, 10:59:34 AM6/23/14
to
O
Jun 23, 2014, 11:13:00 AM6/23/14
to
Willem Orange
Jun 23, 2014, 11:15:20 AM6/23/14
to
Christopher Webber
Jun 23, 2014, 11:26:21 AM6/23/14
to
On 23/06/2014 15:50, Frank Berger wrote:
> At this point it would be useful for someone to provide actual evidence
> for the usage of "fluffy." Something in print perhaps. That might
> convince Steve. I don't recall him being so unreasonably intractable in
> the past, do I? Aside, perhaps, from his nit-picking much of what
> Matthew says.
I already gave him a printed source, Frank, which he chose to ignore -
> At this point it would be useful for someone to provide actual evidence
> for the usage of "fluffy." Something in print perhaps. That might
> convince Steve. I don't recall him being so unreasonably intractable in
> the past, do I? Aside, perhaps, from his nit-picking much of what
> Matthew says.
namely, Richard Osborne's 1998 biography. If this particular Doubting
Thomas wishes to stick his nit-picking digit right into the wound, he
should look at p.92.
In fact the whole "fluffy" caboodle was discussed in much the same terms
on RMCR back in 2000 (perhaps before Mr de Mena was born):
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.music.classical.recordings/P3jencTK66g/ACyyX_jcVMMJ
weary flake
Jun 23, 2014, 11:27:21 AM6/23/14
to
bloodless, over-refined, dubious, spongious, diminishing, sticky, a
goulash of explosive whipped cream. Well, it's good stuff besides.
Christopher Webber
Jun 23, 2014, 11:30:09 AM6/23/14
to
On 23/06/2014 16:15, Willem Orange wrote:
> Not only to you -it took me about a minute to find at least two references to him as "Fluffy" on various Internet forums.
Quite. I think Mr de Mena uses a different search engine to the rest of
> Not only to you -it took me about a minute to find at least two references to him as "Fluffy" on various Internet forums.
us. 'Gargle', perhaps?
Willem Orange
Jun 23, 2014, 11:35:52 AM6/23/14
to
Gerard
Jun 23, 2014, 11:39:05 AM6/23/14
to
"Christopher Webber" wrote in message
news:c0qkuu...@mid.individual.net...
It works the other way around as well: if he knows something then it is
obvious (to him) that everybody knows it.
Isn't there a word for this?
Grobs
Jun 23, 2014, 11:58:03 AM6/23/14
to
I like to refer to people with red hair as 'carrot tops'. It's so much fun!
Steven Bornfeld
Jun 23, 2014, 1:09:26 PM6/23/14
to
On 6/23/2014 7:00 AM, Steve de Mena wrote:
> On 6/23/14, 12:18 AM, Christopher Webber wrote:
>> On 23/06/2014 08:00, Steve de Mena wrote:
>>> No one ever called Karajan "Fluffy". I think that originated here
>>> in RMCR
>>
>> It did not. According to his biographer Richard Osborne, His Aachen
>> (1937) admirer Helene Merzenich called him Fluffy, the name stuck, and
>> lots of real people - as distinct from to RMCR posters - have enjoyed
>> using it.
>
> Never heard it except here.
>
> Steve
Admit it, Steve--you and I were jealous of his hair.
> On 6/23/14, 12:18 AM, Christopher Webber wrote:
>> On 23/06/2014 08:00, Steve de Mena wrote:
>>> No one ever called Karajan "Fluffy". I think that originated here
>>> in RMCR
>>
>> It did not. According to his biographer Richard Osborne, His Aachen
>> (1937) admirer Helene Merzenich called him Fluffy, the name stuck, and
>> lots of real people - as distinct from to RMCR posters - have enjoyed
>> using it.
>
> Never heard it except here.
>
> Steve
Steve
Steven Bornfeld
Jun 23, 2014, 1:12:57 PM6/23/14
to
On 6/22/2014 12:30 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> Those with nothing better to do with their time might wish to read the
> comments following this review.
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R3AGDMTRKI5JBO?ref_=pe_780071_41837251
Your antagonists have a great deal of difficulty distinguishing fact
> Those with nothing better to do with their time might wish to read the
> comments following this review.
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R3AGDMTRKI5JBO?ref_=pe_780071_41837251
from opinion.
OTOH, what is that old, politically-incorrect meme about "arguing on the
internet is like winning the Special Olympics"?
Steven Bornfeld
Jun 23, 2014, 1:17:07 PM6/23/14
to
On 6/23/2014 11:27 AM, weary flake wrote:
>
> sloppy, self-indulgent, sentimental, lackadaisical, slip-shod, glutinous,
> bloodless, over-refined, dubious, spongious, diminishing, sticky, a
> goulash of explosive whipped cream. Well, it's good stuff besides.
>
Oh, no--I'm gluten-free!
>
> sloppy, self-indulgent, sentimental, lackadaisical, slip-shod, glutinous,
> bloodless, over-refined, dubious, spongious, diminishing, sticky, a
> goulash of explosive whipped cream. Well, it's good stuff besides.
>
John Wiser
Jun 23, 2014, 1:42:46 PM6/23/14
to
"Gerard" <gh-nospam...@live.com> wrote in message
news:7d81$53a84c13$54686658$31...@cache60.multikabel.net...
Perhaps you are thinking "solipsism".
That would be incorrect, because there is
already one of those just upwind of him.
jdw
jdw
news:7d81$53a84c13$54686658$31...@cache60.multikabel.net...
That would be incorrect, because there is
already one of those just upwind of him.
jdw
jdw
tomdeacon
Jun 23, 2014, 9:52:11 PM6/23/14
to
So?
--
TD
Marc P.
Jun 23, 2014, 11:59:48 PM6/23/14
to
On Monday, June 23, 2014 12:00:35 AM UTC-7, Steven de Mena wrote:
This may help resolve the issue (note the recording accompanying the video):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuywU3-opl8
Marc Perman
> On 6/22/14, 9:30 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
>
> > Those with nothing better to do with their time might wish to read the
>
> > comments following this review.
>
> >
>
> > http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R3AGDMTRKI5JBO?ref_=pe_780071_41837251
>
>
>
>
> > Those with nothing better to do with their time might wish to read the
>
> > comments following this review.
>
> >
>
> > http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R3AGDMTRKI5JBO?ref_=pe_780071_41837251
>
>
>
> No one ever called Karajan "Fluffy". I think that originated here in
>
> RMCR and I wish it would be put to bed.
>
This may help resolve the issue (note the recording accompanying the video):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuywU3-opl8
Marc Perman
RVG
Jun 24, 2014, 12:59:59 AM6/24/14
to
Le 22/06/2014 18:30, William Sommerwerck a �crit :
composers (except Mahler) including the Second Viennese School ?
And Holst ? Have you heard "The Planets" he recorded with Decca ?
--
� Si inf�mes que soient les canailles, ils ne le sont jamais autant que
les honn�tes gens. �
Octave Mirbeau
http://jamen.do/l/a131552
http://bluedusk.blogspot.fr/
http://soundcloud.com/rvgronoff
> Those with nothing better to do with their time might wish to read
> the comments following this review.
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R3AGDMTRKI5JBO?ref_=pe_780071_41837251
So Karajan was not the best conductor of Strauss. What about Austrian
> the comments following this review.
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R3AGDMTRKI5JBO?ref_=pe_780071_41837251
composers (except Mahler) including the Second Viennese School ?
And Holst ? Have you heard "The Planets" he recorded with Decca ?
--
� Si inf�mes que soient les canailles, ils ne le sont jamais autant que
les honn�tes gens. �
Octave Mirbeau
http://jamen.do/l/a131552
http://bluedusk.blogspot.fr/
http://soundcloud.com/rvgronoff
Herman
Jun 24, 2014, 3:24:02 AM6/24/14
to
On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 6:59:59 AM UTC+2, RVG wrote:
>
> So Karajan was not the best conductor of Strauss. What about Austrian
>
> composers (except Mahler) including the Second Viennese School ?
>
> And Holst ? Have you heard "The Planets" he recorded with Decca ?
>
yeah, what about them?
>
> So Karajan was not the best conductor of Strauss. What about Austrian
>
> composers (except Mahler) including the Second Viennese School ?
>
> And Holst ? Have you heard "The Planets" he recorded with Decca ?
>
Frank Lekens
Jun 24, 2014, 3:48:50 AM6/24/14
to
Christopher Webber schreef op 23-6-2014 17:26:
I'm dying to know what she *actually* called him. (You know, in German.)
But I suppose Osborne doesn't mention that, in a footnote somewhere?
--
Frank Lekens
http://fmlekens.home.xs4all.nl/
But I suppose Osborne doesn't mention that, in a footnote somewhere?
--
Frank Lekens
http://fmlekens.home.xs4all.nl/
gggg...@gmail.com
Jun 24, 2014, 4:40:39 AM6/24/14
to
On Monday, June 23, 2014 5:27:21 AM UTC-10, weary flake wrote:
Add to your list the word DERACINATED:
http://www.allmusic.com/album/holst-the-planets-mw0001853935
http://www.allmusic.com/album/holst-the-planets-mw0001853935
Christopher Webber
Jun 24, 2014, 4:42:35 AM6/24/14
to
On 24/06/2014 08:48, Frank Lekens wrote:
>>
> I'm dying to know what she *actually* called him. (You know, in German.)
> But I suppose Osborne doesn't mention that, in a footnote somewhere?
Now that *is* an interesting question. No footnote from Osborne on p.92,
>>
> I'm dying to know what she *actually* called him. (You know, in German.)
> But I suppose Osborne doesn't mention that, in a footnote somewhere?
but the appellation is in single quotes, which suggests that Helene
Merzenich did use the English form.
'Flaumig' doesn't, I think, have quite the same affectionate, diminutive
connotations as 'fluffy'. Richard Osborne's usual practise would be to
add a footnote where a translation appears in his main text. But I am,
of course, open to correction from Germanists!
'Fluffy' itself is a fairly new coinage, by the way. OED tells us that
the earliest usage was in an 1825 scientific dictionary, but the word
was popularised by its use in Dickens (Dombey, 1848) and Thackeray
(Lovel, 1850). The word was big in 1920's London, with E.F.Benson and
A.P.Herbert particularly fond of it - so (very speculatively) perhaps
Helene, who was in her forties by 1937, first heard it here.
I like OED's 2004 addition:
"fluffy dice n. a pair of large imitation dice made from fluffy,
fur-like material, designed to be hung inside a vehicle's windscreen
(esp. from the rear-view mirror) or rear window, and sometimes
considered emblematic of poor taste."
Frank Lekens
Jun 24, 2014, 5:39:57 AM6/24/14
to
Christopher Webber schreef op 24-6-2014 10:42:
But was this woman German or Austrian? It's not impossible of course,
but it seems unlikely to me that German-speaking people would use
English terms of endearment amongst each other. At least if it all took
place in the 40s, 50s.
but it seems unlikely to me that German-speaking people would use
English terms of endearment amongst each other. At least if it all took
place in the 40s, 50s.
Willem Orange
Jun 24, 2014, 5:46:15 AM6/24/14
to
Christopher Webber
Jun 24, 2014, 5:58:28 AM6/24/14
to
On 24/06/2014 10:39, Frank Lekens wrote:
> But was this woman German or Austrian? It's not impossible of course,
> but it seems unlikely to me that German-speaking people would use
> English terms of endearment amongst each other. At least if it all took
> place in the 40s, 50s.
See Osborne (refs. as given in thread). It was 1937, when England and
> But was this woman German or Austrian? It's not impossible of course,
> but it seems unlikely to me that German-speaking people would use
> English terms of endearment amongst each other. At least if it all took
> place in the 40s, 50s.
the English language were highly fashionable in Germany and Austria.
Remember Hitler and his good friends, (some of) the Mitfords? He didn't
on balance think England would go to war with him, as the two countries
were culturally so close, as his English aristo friends assured him.
I can't answer your question as to Helene's nationality.
Herman
Jun 24, 2014, 6:29:11 AM6/24/14
to
On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 11:39:57 AM UTC+2, Frank Lekens wrote:
>
> But was this woman German or Austrian? It's not impossible of course,
>
> but it seems unlikely to me that German-speaking people would use
>
> English terms of endearment amongst each other. At least if it all took
>
> place in the 40s, 50s.
>
You have exposed the spuriousness of this story. It's highly unlikely Helene Merzenich (who btw doesn't show up when I google her name, other than in connection with this anecdote) would have used an English word like this. Through the early sixties polite circles in Europe used French as their second language.
>
> But was this woman German or Austrian? It's not impossible of course,
>
> but it seems unlikely to me that German-speaking people would use
>
> English terms of endearment amongst each other. At least if it all took
>
> place in the 40s, 50s.
>
Herman
Jun 24, 2014, 6:33:34 AM6/24/14
to
On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 11:58:28 AM UTC+2, Christopher Webber wrote:
>
> See Osborne (refs. as given in thread). It was 1937, when England and
>
> the English language were highly fashionable in Germany and Austria.
>
> Remember Hitler and his good friends, (some of) the Mitfords? He didn't
>
> on balance think England would go to war with him, as the two countries
>
> were culturally so close, as his English aristo friends assured him.
>
You don't seriously think Hitler was speaking English with Unity Mitford, do you?
>
> See Osborne (refs. as given in thread). It was 1937, when England and
>
> the English language were highly fashionable in Germany and Austria.
>
> Remember Hitler and his good friends, (some of) the Mitfords? He didn't
>
> on balance think England would go to war with him, as the two countries
>
> were culturally so close, as his English aristo friends assured him.
>
She was speaking German with him, obviously.
Willem Orange
Jun 24, 2014, 6:47:57 AM6/24/14
to
Willem Orange
Jun 24, 2014, 6:54:26 AM6/24/14
to
Herman
Jun 24, 2014, 7:02:56 AM6/24/14
to
Frank Lekens
Jun 24, 2014, 7:05:55 AM6/24/14
to
Herman schreef op 24-6-2014 12:29:
That's what I thought, and I agree that if no other source for this
anecdote is ever found, I'm inclined to think it spurious as well.
But as to the popularity of English, things might not be as clear cut as
that. English never was as all pervasive as it is now, but I'm sometimes
surprised at the English expressions that turn up in Dutch newspapers
from an era when I thought English expressions weren't common at all.
For instance, I saw "up to date" used in a humorous column in a turn of
the century newspaper (and a writer like Couperus liberally used what
sound to me like literal translations of English phrases, e.g. "making
money", "geld maken" -- something that would still be considered an
anglicism by many people today).
And one other interesting case: the recently much hyped, rediscovered
novel 'Een dwaze maagd' (A Foolish Virgin) by Ida Simons, about her
youth as a budding concert pianist in the 1920s and 30s. She was
obviously part of a very cosmopolitan set as well, and I think there
were some English phrases in that book. Unfortunately, I can't think of
specific examples. (And admittedly, I think she also had English family
members and/or was raised in English.)
Incidentally, I'd been meaning to mention this novel here. For the
non-Dutch readers: I do hope you'll get the chance to read this book in
translation at some point. I think a German translation exists. It's
interesting if you like to read novels about musicians, and interesting
if you like to read well written coming of age novels, period.
Ida Simons was a concert pianist before the war. No recordings of her
seem to exist. (Here is a picture though:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/8725928@N02/7222993480/in/pool-1338852@N22%7C8725928@N02)
After the war, and the camps (she was Jewish) she gave up her musical
career (although she did tour in the US in the 50s, a local newspaper's
review of her recital can be found on Google Newspapers somewhere). She
turned to writing and published just one novella and this novel before
she died.
The Foolish Virgin (1960), which was quickly forgotten, reissued only
once in the 1980s, then rediscovered again and reissued to wide acclaim
this year, is a beautiful account of her youth in a cosmopolitan Jewish
family in The Hague and Antwerp. You could say it's a more or less
standard Bildungsroman about a sensitive young girl and budding artist.
But it's very well written, with an absolutely winning irony and gentle
mockery of her family. (And, slightly surprising for an account of a
Jewish childhood in the interbellum: there's no mention of the impending
war at all. The only reference to antisemitism is to *Jewish* drawing
room antisemitism, which in turn leads to the only reference to what she
calls "the gas chamber generation" in the entire book.)
And if you allow me the digression: reading this novel I suddenly
realized there aren't all that many novels about musicians, or novels
where (classical) music plays an important role. At least I couldn't
straightaway think of any. There's Mann's Dr. Faustus, and something by
Vikram Seth, I think. Something about a quartet by Michael Faber... and
then I pretty much run out of suggestions.
Even in the genre of the Kunstlerroman, protagonists tend to be writers
(of course), and otherwise painters or sculptors rather than musicians.
Am I right? Or are there some good novels about musicians that I'm
overlooking?
The only other instance I can think of (and it's a very interesting one)
is Henry Handel Richardson's Maurice Guest: a minor novel, and a curious
work rather than a masterpiece, stylistically far from brilliant. But
very interesting nonetheless -- not only for its weird love story (and
its refreshing freedom of the bourgeois morality that Victorian British
fiction is so pervaded by), but also for its picture of the music scene
in Leipzig in the 1890s. The protagonist is a British piano student
there, and all the major characters are music students at the Leipzig
conservatory. (Richardson had been a piano student there herself, and
seems to have cut short her studies only due to excessive stage fright.)
anecdote is ever found, I'm inclined to think it spurious as well.
But as to the popularity of English, things might not be as clear cut as
that. English never was as all pervasive as it is now, but I'm sometimes
surprised at the English expressions that turn up in Dutch newspapers
from an era when I thought English expressions weren't common at all.
For instance, I saw "up to date" used in a humorous column in a turn of
the century newspaper (and a writer like Couperus liberally used what
sound to me like literal translations of English phrases, e.g. "making
money", "geld maken" -- something that would still be considered an
anglicism by many people today).
And one other interesting case: the recently much hyped, rediscovered
novel 'Een dwaze maagd' (A Foolish Virgin) by Ida Simons, about her
youth as a budding concert pianist in the 1920s and 30s. She was
obviously part of a very cosmopolitan set as well, and I think there
were some English phrases in that book. Unfortunately, I can't think of
specific examples. (And admittedly, I think she also had English family
members and/or was raised in English.)
Incidentally, I'd been meaning to mention this novel here. For the
non-Dutch readers: I do hope you'll get the chance to read this book in
translation at some point. I think a German translation exists. It's
interesting if you like to read novels about musicians, and interesting
if you like to read well written coming of age novels, period.
Ida Simons was a concert pianist before the war. No recordings of her
seem to exist. (Here is a picture though:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/8725928@N02/7222993480/in/pool-1338852@N22%7C8725928@N02)
After the war, and the camps (she was Jewish) she gave up her musical
career (although she did tour in the US in the 50s, a local newspaper's
review of her recital can be found on Google Newspapers somewhere). She
turned to writing and published just one novella and this novel before
she died.
The Foolish Virgin (1960), which was quickly forgotten, reissued only
once in the 1980s, then rediscovered again and reissued to wide acclaim
this year, is a beautiful account of her youth in a cosmopolitan Jewish
family in The Hague and Antwerp. You could say it's a more or less
standard Bildungsroman about a sensitive young girl and budding artist.
But it's very well written, with an absolutely winning irony and gentle
mockery of her family. (And, slightly surprising for an account of a
Jewish childhood in the interbellum: there's no mention of the impending
war at all. The only reference to antisemitism is to *Jewish* drawing
room antisemitism, which in turn leads to the only reference to what she
calls "the gas chamber generation" in the entire book.)
And if you allow me the digression: reading this novel I suddenly
realized there aren't all that many novels about musicians, or novels
where (classical) music plays an important role. At least I couldn't
straightaway think of any. There's Mann's Dr. Faustus, and something by
Vikram Seth, I think. Something about a quartet by Michael Faber... and
then I pretty much run out of suggestions.
Even in the genre of the Kunstlerroman, protagonists tend to be writers
(of course), and otherwise painters or sculptors rather than musicians.
Am I right? Or are there some good novels about musicians that I'm
overlooking?
The only other instance I can think of (and it's a very interesting one)
is Henry Handel Richardson's Maurice Guest: a minor novel, and a curious
work rather than a masterpiece, stylistically far from brilliant. But
very interesting nonetheless -- not only for its weird love story (and
its refreshing freedom of the bourgeois morality that Victorian British
fiction is so pervaded by), but also for its picture of the music scene
in Leipzig in the 1890s. The protagonist is a British piano student
there, and all the major characters are music students at the Leipzig
conservatory. (Richardson had been a piano student there herself, and
seems to have cut short her studies only due to excessive stage fright.)
Herman
Jun 24, 2014, 7:10:55 AM6/24/14
to
On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 1:02:56 PM UTC+2, Herman wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 12:54:26 PM UTC+2, Willem Orange wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 6:47:57 AM UTC-4, Willem Orange wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 6:29:11 AM UTC-4, Herman wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 11:39:57 AM UTC+2, Frank Lekens wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
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> > > >
>
> >
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> >
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>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > But was this woman German or Austrian? It's not impossible of course,
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
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> >
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>
> >
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> > >
>
> >
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> > > >
>
> >
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> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > but it seems unlikely to me that German-speaking people would use
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > English terms of endearment amongst each other. At least if it all took
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > > >
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> >
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> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > place in the 40s, 50s.
>
> >
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> >
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> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > You have exposed the spuriousness of this story. It's highly unlikely Helene Merzenich (who btw doesn't show up when I google her name, other than in connection with this anecdote) would have used an English word like this. Through the early sixties polite circles in Europe used French as their second language.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
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>
> > > Christopher did nothing of the sort - she could easily have heard the word and given it to Karajan as an endearment -happens all the time.
Frank Lekens exposed the iffyness of this story. It's highly unlikely a German woman would have used an English term like that. I'm sure it happens all the time now, but you know, the funny thing is, the thirties or forties weren't now.
> On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 12:54:26 PM UTC+2, Willem Orange wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 6:47:57 AM UTC-4, Willem Orange wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 6:29:11 AM UTC-4, Herman wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 11:39:57 AM UTC+2, Frank Lekens wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > > >
>
> >
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> > >
>
> >
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> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > But was this woman German or Austrian? It's not impossible of course,
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > but it seems unlikely to me that German-speaking people would use
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > English terms of endearment amongst each other. At least if it all took
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > place in the 40s, 50s.
>
> >
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> >
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> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > You have exposed the spuriousness of this story. It's highly unlikely Helene Merzenich (who btw doesn't show up when I google her name, other than in connection with this anecdote) would have used an English word like this. Through the early sixties polite circles in Europe used French as their second language.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
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> > >
>
> >
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> > >
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> >
>
> > > Christopher did nothing of the sort - she could easily have heard the word and given it to Karajan as an endearment -happens all the time.
I mentioned that nothing shows up when one googles Merzenich to indicate that people like that are extremily convenient to hang spurious stories onto.
Not that I give a hoot what anybody wants to call HvK. In general I don't understand why people need to call Leonard Bernstein "Lenny" and Stokowsky "Stokie" or Bernard Haitink "Bernie" while they wouldn't dream of doing this to their faces.
Willem Orange
Jun 24, 2014, 7:12:21 AM6/24/14
to
Willem Orange
Jun 24, 2014, 7:15:12 AM6/24/14
to
Herman
Jun 24, 2014, 7:17:11 AM6/24/14
to
On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 1:15:12 PM UTC+2, Willem Orange wrote:
>
>
> Oh so you were floating around Karajans social circles in the 30s and 40s and know that it is highly unlikely - do tell us more - I'm sure you have some fascinating stories about him and friends back then
you seem to have a dog in this fight - or rather, you want to make this a fight and bring your dog.
>
>
> Oh so you were floating around Karajans social circles in the 30s and 40s and know that it is highly unlikely - do tell us more - I'm sure you have some fascinating stories about him and friends back then
Willem Orange
Jun 24, 2014, 7:20:46 AM6/24/14
to
Herman
Jun 24, 2014, 7:21:15 AM6/24/14
to
On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 1:12:21 PM UTC+2, Willem Orange wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 7:02:56 AM UTC-4, Herman wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 12:54:26 PM UTC+2, Willem Orange wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 6:47:57 AM UTC-4, Willem Orange wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 6:29:11 AM UTC-4, Herman wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 11:39:57 AM UTC+2, Frank Lekens wrote:
>
> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > >
>
> >
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> > > >
>
> >
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> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > > But was this woman German or Austrian? It's not impossible of course,
>
> >
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> > >
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> > >
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> > > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
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> > > > > > but it seems unlikely to me that German-speaking people would use
>
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> > >
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> >
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> > > >
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> >
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> > >
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> >
>
> > > > > > English terms of endearment amongst each other. At least if it all took
>
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> > > > > > place in the 40s, 50s.
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> >
>
> > > > > You have exposed the spuriousness of this story. It's highly unlikely Helene Merzenich (who btw doesn't show up when I google her name, other than in connection with this anecdote) would have used an English word like this. Through the early sixties polite circles in Europe used French as their second language.
>
> >
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> > > > Christopher did nothing of the sort - she could easily have heard the word and given it to Karajan as an endearment -happens all the time. As a matter of fact since you don't know anything about her by your own admission you don't know what words she would have used - do you????? and in exactly what countries was French used as a second language in "polite society"..
>
> >
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> > > through the 1960s???
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> > early sixties. yes. Hate to tell you, pal, but it just so happens I grew up in the area.
>
>
>
> Who cares??? so your saying its impossible that with all the French being spoken in Karajans social circles, a friend couldn't have used an English term as an endearment??? yeah sure, pal - everything revolves around YOUR experiences.
You seem to be incapable of not twisting what people say. I didn't say it was impossible. I said it was highly unlikely.
> On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 7:02:56 AM UTC-4, Herman wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 12:54:26 PM UTC+2, Willem Orange wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 6:47:57 AM UTC-4, Willem Orange wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 6:29:11 AM UTC-4, Herman wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 11:39:57 AM UTC+2, Frank Lekens wrote:
>
> >
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> > > > > > But was this woman German or Austrian? It's not impossible of course,
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> > > > > > but it seems unlikely to me that German-speaking people would use
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> > > > > > English terms of endearment amongst each other. At least if it all took
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> > > > > You have exposed the spuriousness of this story. It's highly unlikely Helene Merzenich (who btw doesn't show up when I google her name, other than in connection with this anecdote) would have used an English word like this. Through the early sixties polite circles in Europe used French as their second language.
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> > > > Christopher did nothing of the sort - she could easily have heard the word and given it to Karajan as an endearment -happens all the time. As a matter of fact since you don't know anything about her by your own admission you don't know what words she would have used - do you????? and in exactly what countries was French used as a second language in "polite society"..
>
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> > > through the 1960s???
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> > early sixties. yes. Hate to tell you, pal, but it just so happens I grew up in the area.
>
>
>
> Who cares??? so your saying its impossible that with all the French being spoken in Karajans social circles, a friend couldn't have used an English term as an endearment??? yeah sure, pal - everything revolves around YOUR experiences.
You said "it" happens all the time, which frankly sounds like you make your (current) experience the only guide.
This is how these anecdotes become cemented in history. People don't allow for any doubt or scepticism.
Willem Orange
Jun 24, 2014, 7:28:50 AM6/24/14
to
Christopher Webber
Jun 24, 2014, 7:57:15 AM6/24/14
to
On 24/06/2014 12:05, Frank Lekens wrote:
> and its refreshing freedom of the bourgeois morality that Victorian
> British fiction is so pervaded by
This is not the case - at least not in the major novels of George Eliot,
> and its refreshing freedom of the bourgeois morality that Victorian
> British fiction is so pervaded by
Dickens, Thackeray, Gissing, Gaskell, Meredith et al. The idea (though
it has a grain of truth when it comes to minor writers such as Trollope)
is a critical canard that bears no scrutiny.
Look at George Eliot's life, read her books, and then tell me there's
anything there to support "bourgeois morality"!
Christopher Webber
Jun 24, 2014, 8:05:22 AM6/24/14
to
On 24/06/2014 12:21, Herman wrote:
> This is how these anecdotes become cemented in history. People don't allow for any doubt or scepticism.
We seem to have wandered a little off track. If you read Osborne, p.92,
> This is how these anecdotes become cemented in history. People don't allow for any doubt or scepticism.
we don't have here a "minor anecdote", but a full account of how the
young Karajan spent the summer of 1937. Richard Osborne is not known for
being fanciful, or for making things up. Nor does he say whether the
endearment was in English or German. Nor - I hazard - does it much
matter. That intriguing question was asked on this newsgroup.
But as the nickname had been around for so many decades before he wrote
his book, I guess he was keen to tell his readers where and from whom
"Fluffy" originated. Read the book, and see.
English (and its American variant) was of course extremely fashionable
amongst the "fast set" in German and Austria from the early 20th century
until World War 2. A quick look at many an operetta libretto (e.g. 'Die
Herzogin von Chicago') will show you that.
Willem Orange
Jun 24, 2014, 8:11:11 AM6/24/14
to
whiskynsplash
Jun 24, 2014, 10:53:34 AM6/24/14
to
On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 6:05:55 AM UTC-5, Frank Lekens wrote:
> Herman schreef op 24-6-2014 12:29:
> > On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 11:39:57 AM UTC+2, Frank Lekens wrote:
> And if you allow me the digression: reading this novel I suddenly
> realized there aren't all that many novels about musicians, or novels
> where (classical) music plays an important role. At least I couldn't
> straightaway think of any. There's Mann's Dr. Faustus, and something by
> Vikram Seth, I think. Something about a quartet by Michael Faber... and
> then I pretty much run out of suggestions.
>
> Even in the genre of the Kunstlerroman, protagonists tend to be writers
> (of course), and otherwise painters or sculptors rather than musicians.
> Am I right? Or are there some good novels about musicians that I'm
> overlooking?
Off the top of my head:
> Herman schreef op 24-6-2014 12:29:
> > On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 11:39:57 AM UTC+2, Frank Lekens wrote:
> And if you allow me the digression: reading this novel I suddenly
> realized there aren't all that many novels about musicians, or novels
> where (classical) music plays an important role. At least I couldn't
> straightaway think of any. There's Mann's Dr. Faustus, and something by
> Vikram Seth, I think. Something about a quartet by Michael Faber... and
> then I pretty much run out of suggestions.
>
> Even in the genre of the Kunstlerroman, protagonists tend to be writers
> (of course), and otherwise painters or sculptors rather than musicians.
> Am I right? Or are there some good novels about musicians that I'm
> overlooking?
Romain Rolland -- Jean Christophe
Rebecca West -- The Fountain Overflows
Anthony Burgess -- Napoleon Symphony (not strictly about a musician)
And the very prim and proper Victorian saucy tales by Ken Russell:
Elgar, The Erotic Variations / Delius, A Moment with Venus
Beethoven Confidential / Brahms Gets Laid
Too bad the old boy snuffed it before he could make these into movies. Hilarious!
http://www.amazon.com/Elgar-Erotic-Variations-Delius-Moment/dp/072061290X
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Confidential-Brahms-Gets-Laid/dp/0720612799
whiskynsplash
Jun 24, 2014, 11:04:26 AM6/24/14
to
On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 6:57:15 AM UTC-5, Christopher Webber wrote:
> it has a grain of truth when it comes to minor writers such as Trollope)
Anthony Trollope a "minor" writer ???!!!
> it has a grain of truth when it comes to minor writers such as Trollope)
(Proud owner of a big chunk of Trollope in Folio Edition slipcases and the rest of him on Penguin Classics & Oxford World's Classics Paperbacks).
tomdeacon
Jun 24, 2014, 12:26:30 PM6/24/14
to
--
TD
tomdeacon
Jun 24, 2014, 12:26:31 PM6/24/14
to
Now, as you can't muster one for us, this must be impossible for you to
comprehend.
Just back off and go suck your thumb in the corner.
--
TD
Christopher Webber
Jun 24, 2014, 1:00:57 PM6/24/14
to
On 24/06/2014 16:04, whiskynsplash wrote:
> Anthony Trollope a "minor" writer ???!!!
>
> (Proud owner of a big chunk of Trollope in Folio Edition slipcases and the rest of him on Penguin Classics & Oxford World's Classics Paperbacks).
Just teasing! 'The Way We Live Now' still holds its power, of course, as
> Anthony Trollope a "minor" writer ???!!!
>
> (Proud owner of a big chunk of Trollope in Folio Edition slipcases and the rest of him on Penguin Classics & Oxford World's Classics Paperbacks).
do many of the Barsetshire and Phineas Finn sequences. Some of the
lesser novels, though, do rather read as if he was writing them while
Waiting for the Spark from Heaven to Fall.
But it is the unquestioning allegiance to the Bourgeois Morality (for
here I agree with you) which limits his range.
But then, how many other novelists invented the Postbox? Not even
Tolstoy could have come up with that!
Terry
Jun 24, 2014, 11:32:17 AM6/24/14
to
In article <53a95b88$0$2952$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl>, Frank Lekens
<frankhaaldit...@xs4all.invalid> wrote:
<snip>
<frankhaaldit...@xs4all.invalid> wrote:
<snip>
>
>
> And if you allow me the digression: reading this novel I suddenly
> realized there aren't all that many novels about musicians, or novels
> where (classical) music plays an important role. At least I couldn't
> straightaway think of any. There's Mann's Dr. Faustus, and something by
> Vikram Seth, I think. Something about a quartet by Michael Faber... and
> then I pretty much run out of suggestions.
>
>The Vikram Seth is "An Equal Music", and it's a very, very fine book.
>
> And if you allow me the digression: reading this novel I suddenly
> realized there aren't all that many novels about musicians, or novels
> where (classical) music plays an important role. At least I couldn't
> straightaway think of any. There's Mann's Dr. Faustus, and something by
> Vikram Seth, I think. Something about a quartet by Michael Faber... and
> then I pretty much run out of suggestions.
>
Terry
Jun 24, 2014, 11:33:56 AM6/24/14
to
In article <0a90104d-0382-474f...@googlegroups.com>,
Willem Orange <ivanm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, June 23, 2014 11:30:09 AM UTC-4, Christopher Webber wrote:
> > On 23/06/2014 16:15, Willem Orange wrote:
> >
> > > Not only to you -it took me about a minute to find at least two
> > > references to him as "Fluffy" on various Internet forums.
> >
> >
> >
> > Quite. I think Mr de Mena uses a different search engine to the rest of
> >
> > us. 'Gargle', perhaps?
>
> Actually that reminded me that I had friends who referred to him also as
> Herbie. With a very long career and big fan base names like that are bound to
> come up for whatever reason.
I had a friend at uni. who, misreading the name, always referred to HvK
as "Herbert von Krakajan"
Willem Orange <ivanm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, June 23, 2014 11:30:09 AM UTC-4, Christopher Webber wrote:
> > On 23/06/2014 16:15, Willem Orange wrote:
> >
> > > Not only to you -it took me about a minute to find at least two
> > > references to him as "Fluffy" on various Internet forums.
> >
> >
> >
> > Quite. I think Mr de Mena uses a different search engine to the rest of
> >
> > us. 'Gargle', perhaps?
>
> Actually that reminded me that I had friends who referred to him also as
> Herbie. With a very long career and big fan base names like that are bound to
> come up for whatever reason.
I had a friend at uni. who, misreading the name, always referred to HvK
as "Herbert von Krakajan"
Christopher Webber
Jun 24, 2014, 2:02:01 PM6/24/14
to
'The Lost Musicians' by the Faroese writer William Heinesen (a chap who
turned down the Nobel Prize) is not only one of the best books about
musicians, but one of the best novels of any kind I have ever read.
Then there is Svorecky's wondrous 'Dvorak in Love', but I think that's
been mentioned here before.
turned down the Nobel Prize) is not only one of the best books about
musicians, but one of the best novels of any kind I have ever read.
Then there is Svorecky's wondrous 'Dvorak in Love', but I think that's
been mentioned here before.
Frank Lekens
Jun 24, 2014, 2:44:23 PM6/24/14
to
Christopher Webber schreef op 24-6-2014 13:57:
I was being a little obtuse and didn't express myself very clearly. What
I mean is that British fiction of the period does seem a little cramped
by victorian *sexual* morality, that excessive prudishness that probably
had little to do with how people actually lived, but affected the
possibility to write about it (other than in indirect, coded ways) --
especially if you compare it with the candour of French fiction of
around the same period. Didn't French novels have a reputation for being
"immoral" in England? Maupassant and Flaubert could describe adultery
without the slightest *moral* judgement on the part of their narrators.
Surely that was unthinkable in English fiction before, say, 1890?
I'm thinking also of the scandal that novels like Hardy's could still
create. And sure, Eliot was very brave, but what she did in real life
(living out of wedlock with her lover) she surely wouldn't have dreamt
of describing in a novel (without a narrator condemning it). For sound
artistic reasons maybe, but also because the Victorian audience (or
rather the circulating libraries) wouldn't have accepted it.
Gissing's New Grub Street is one of the first novels where I've come
across something of a more modern attitude. (He didn't seem too bothered
by bourgeois morality in real life either.)
And if you read Maurice Guest you'll see what I mean. She's rather more
open about her characters' sex lives than authors of the previous
generation -- although her book is still a far cry from the work of
Lawrence and other modernists.
Strangely, she's rather more obscure in her references to homosexuality
-- which does seem to play a part in the novel, but it's so coded and
mystifyingly written about that it's hard to be sure. There's all kinds
of strange ambivalences in this book.
By the way, I'm not saying this openness leads to better fiction
necessarily: Maurice Guest is by no means as impressive as even the most
minor of Eliot or Dicken's works!
I mean is that British fiction of the period does seem a little cramped
by victorian *sexual* morality, that excessive prudishness that probably
had little to do with how people actually lived, but affected the
possibility to write about it (other than in indirect, coded ways) --
especially if you compare it with the candour of French fiction of
around the same period. Didn't French novels have a reputation for being
"immoral" in England? Maupassant and Flaubert could describe adultery
without the slightest *moral* judgement on the part of their narrators.
Surely that was unthinkable in English fiction before, say, 1890?
I'm thinking also of the scandal that novels like Hardy's could still
create. And sure, Eliot was very brave, but what she did in real life
(living out of wedlock with her lover) she surely wouldn't have dreamt
of describing in a novel (without a narrator condemning it). For sound
artistic reasons maybe, but also because the Victorian audience (or
rather the circulating libraries) wouldn't have accepted it.
Gissing's New Grub Street is one of the first novels where I've come
across something of a more modern attitude. (He didn't seem too bothered
by bourgeois morality in real life either.)
And if you read Maurice Guest you'll see what I mean. She's rather more
open about her characters' sex lives than authors of the previous
generation -- although her book is still a far cry from the work of
Lawrence and other modernists.
Strangely, she's rather more obscure in her references to homosexuality
-- which does seem to play a part in the novel, but it's so coded and
mystifyingly written about that it's hard to be sure. There's all kinds
of strange ambivalences in this book.
By the way, I'm not saying this openness leads to better fiction
necessarily: Maurice Guest is by no means as impressive as even the most
minor of Eliot or Dicken's works!
Christopher Webber
Jun 24, 2014, 3:04:52 PM6/24/14
to
On 24/06/2014 19:44, Frank Lekens wrote:
> What I mean is that British fiction of the period does seem a little
> cramped by victorian *sexual* morality, that excessive prudishness that
> probably had little to do with how people actually lived, but affected
> the possibility to write about it (other than in indirect, coded ways)
> -- especially if you compare it with the candour of French fiction of
> around the same period. Didn't French novels have a reputation for being
> "immoral" in England? Maupassant and Flaubert could describe adultery
> without the slightest *moral* judgement on the part of their narrators.
> Surely that was unthinkable in English fiction before, say, 1890?
I see. I think the danger is to posit that, as the English writers are
> What I mean is that British fiction of the period does seem a little
> cramped by victorian *sexual* morality, that excessive prudishness that
> probably had little to do with how people actually lived, but affected
> the possibility to write about it (other than in indirect, coded ways)
> -- especially if you compare it with the candour of French fiction of
> around the same period. Didn't French novels have a reputation for being
> "immoral" in England? Maupassant and Flaubert could describe adultery
> without the slightest *moral* judgement on the part of their narrators.
> Surely that was unthinkable in English fiction before, say, 1890?
not *explicit* about sexual matters, that they were naive, or missing it
out of the picture. This is not the case: a thoughtful reading of
'Middlemarch', for example, reveals that it is very bit as much about
sex and infidelity as 'Anna Karenina' or 'Madame Bovary' - and without
George Eliot needing to describe or portray adultery overtly.
For me, Eliot, Gaskell and Thackeray show their art exactly in this
respect. And, although you are correct that Eliot does not overtly show
lovers "living out of wedlock" in her novels (as opposed to her life, in
which she was unashamed to do precisely that) there can be little
doubting that 2/3 of 'Middlemarch' (the Dorothea/Casaubon/Ladislaw and
Lydgate/Rosamund plots) revolve around sexual jealousy and accusations
of that "immorality" which Balzac and Flaubert show graphically. The
third thread - Fred Vincy/Mary Garth - is even more of a hot potato,
dealing with a woman who refuses to marry the man she loves, until he
gives up the idea of a church profession for which he does not have any
religious belief. Hypocrisy is a major theme for Eliot, in all its
manifestations.
Personally, I find the subtle sexual debates of Eliot, Thackeray and
Gaskell (we leave the Brontes out of the equation, I note!) all the more
artistically satisfying for their reticence. It does not mean that sex
is absent - quite the reverse. And look at Dickens... the violent
sexuality of his novels is barely beneath the surface, with characters
from Sykes/Nancy and Quilp through to Bradley Headstone. It is there all
the time, just as surely as with the overtly "immoral" French authors.
I agree with you also, that "openness" does not "lead to better
fiction". In fact, history shows us that in general the reverse is true.
Who needs D.H.Lawrence today?
Willem Orange
Jun 24, 2014, 3:22:37 PM6/24/14
to
Deacon - to feed his fantasies (with an added dollop of Kraft-Ebbing to justify them)
Willem Orange
Jun 24, 2014, 3:42:33 PM6/24/14
to
Frank Lekens
Jun 24, 2014, 3:42:57 PM6/24/14
to
whiskynsplash schreef op 24-6-2014 16:53:
Thanks for these tips. I'd never heard of Ken Russell. (Stupidly, I must
admit -- now that I see his record.)
admit -- now that I see his record.)
Frank Lekens
Jun 24, 2014, 3:44:27 PM6/24/14
to
Christopher Webber schreef op 24-6-2014 20:02:
Thanks for these tips too.
I knew about Svorecky but somehow have never got round to reading it,
and it always slips my mind.
I knew about Svorecky but somehow have never got round to reading it,
and it always slips my mind.
Christopher Webber
Jun 24, 2014, 3:50:25 PM6/24/14
to
On 24/06/2014 20:44, Frank Lekens wrote:
> I knew about Svorecky but somehow have never got round to reading it,
> and it always slips my mind.
It is a five-star winner, Frank.
> I knew about Svorecky but somehow have never got round to reading it,
> and it always slips my mind.
And yes! do please give the Heinesen a go: amongst many other things, it
is a moving portrait of how music can salvage us all.
Willem Orange
Jun 24, 2014, 3:59:09 PM6/24/14
to
Herman
Jun 24, 2014, 4:01:15 PM6/24/14
to
On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 9:04:52 PM UTC+2, Christopher Webber wrote:
>
> I see. I think the danger is to posit that, as the English writers are
>
> not *explicit* about sexual matters, that they were naive, or missing it
>
> out of the picture. This is not the case: a thoughtful reading of
>
> 'Middlemarch', for example, reveals that it is very bit as much about
>
> sex and infidelity as 'Anna Karenina' or 'Madame Bovary' - and without
>
> George Eliot needing to describe or portray adultery overtly.
>
Well, that raises the question what literature is about, if it cannot describe what it is about. However one might say the same thing about samizdat literature.
>
> I see. I think the danger is to posit that, as the English writers are
>
> not *explicit* about sexual matters, that they were naive, or missing it
>
> out of the picture. This is not the case: a thoughtful reading of
>
> 'Middlemarch', for example, reveals that it is very bit as much about
>
> sex and infidelity as 'Anna Karenina' or 'Madame Bovary' - and without
>
> George Eliot needing to describe or portray adultery overtly.
>
>
>
>
> Who needs D.H.Lawrence today?
That would be sad.
Robert Marshall
Jun 24, 2014, 4:21:20 PM6/24/14
to
On Tue, Jun 24 2014, whiskynsplash <whisky...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 6:05:55 AM UTC-5, Frank Lekens wrote:
>> Herman schreef op 24-6-2014 12:29:
>> > On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 11:39:57 AM UTC+2, Frank Lekens wrote:
>
>> And if you allow me the digression: reading this novel I suddenly
>> realized there aren't all that many novels about musicians, or novels
>> where (classical) music plays an important role. At least I couldn't
>> straightaway think of any. There's Mann's Dr. Faustus, and something by
>> Vikram Seth, I think. Something about a quartet by Michael Faber... and
>> then I pretty much run out of suggestions.
>>
>> Even in the genre of the Kunstlerroman, protagonists tend to be writers
>> (of course), and otherwise painters or sculptors rather than musicians.
>> Am I right? Or are there some good novels about musicians that I'm
>> overlooking?
>
> Off the top of my head:
> Romain Rolland -- Jean Christophe
> Rebecca West -- The Fountain Overflows
> Anthony Burgess -- Napoleon Symphony (not strictly about a musician)
>
> And the very prim and proper Victorian saucy tales by Ken Russell:
> Elgar, The Erotic Variations / Delius, A Moment with Venus
> Beethoven Confidential / Brahms Gets Laid
>
There's also Jessica Duchen's (a UK music writer) novels - quality a bit
> On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 6:05:55 AM UTC-5, Frank Lekens wrote:
>> Herman schreef op 24-6-2014 12:29:
>> > On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 11:39:57 AM UTC+2, Frank Lekens wrote:
>
>> And if you allow me the digression: reading this novel I suddenly
>> realized there aren't all that many novels about musicians, or novels
>> where (classical) music plays an important role. At least I couldn't
>> straightaway think of any. There's Mann's Dr. Faustus, and something by
>> Vikram Seth, I think. Something about a quartet by Michael Faber... and
>> then I pretty much run out of suggestions.
>>
>> Even in the genre of the Kunstlerroman, protagonists tend to be writers
>> (of course), and otherwise painters or sculptors rather than musicians.
>> Am I right? Or are there some good novels about musicians that I'm
>> overlooking?
>
> Off the top of my head:
> Romain Rolland -- Jean Christophe
> Rebecca West -- The Fountain Overflows
> Anthony Burgess -- Napoleon Symphony (not strictly about a musician)
>
> And the very prim and proper Victorian saucy tales by Ken Russell:
> Elgar, The Erotic Variations / Delius, A Moment with Venus
> Beethoven Confidential / Brahms Gets Laid
>
mixed though - I think Hungarian Dances is worth the read.
And of course there's David Mitchell's Cloud Atlas with its Delius
based middle story. I think BBC music magazine did a piece about
music novels a few months ago
Robert
--
La grenouille songe..dans son château d'eau
Links and things http://rmstar.blogspot.com/
Robert Marshall
Jun 24, 2014, 4:22:44 PM6/24/14
to
Christopher Webber
Jun 24, 2014, 4:41:41 PM6/24/14
to
On 24/06/2014 21:21, Robert Marshall wrote:
> There's also Jessica Duchen's (a UK music writer) novels - quality a bit
> mixed though
Is it possible to tell her novels from her music criticism? Perhaps
> There's also Jessica Duchen's (a UK music writer) novels - quality a bit
> mixed though
she's planning to turn that singularly nasty spit at Bruckner she
perpetrated a while back into a novel - the article certainly contained
enough fiction to sustain a three-volume horror.
Christopher Webber
Jun 24, 2014, 4:42:16 PM6/24/14
to
On 24/06/2014 20:59, Willem Orange wrote:
> Just ordered my copy of the Heinesen directly from Dedelus - thanks much for the recommendation!!!
Well done that man!
> Just ordered my copy of the Heinesen directly from Dedelus - thanks much for the recommendation!!!
Robert Marshall
Jun 24, 2014, 5:33:48 PM6/24/14
to
Christian's court, some time since I read it but I'm not sure there was
much about music apart from the role of the main character.
Hesse's Glass Bead Game maybe - but it's even longer since I read that one!
tomdeacon
Jun 24, 2014, 7:15:22 PM6/24/14
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--
TD
tomdeacon
Jun 24, 2014, 7:15:22 PM6/24/14
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Sloppy stuff.
--
TD
Willem Orange
Jun 24, 2014, 7:28:39 PM6/24/14
to
Johannes Roehl
Jun 25, 2014, 3:39:46 AM6/25/14
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Am 24.06.2014 14:05, schrieb Christopher Webber:
> On 24/06/2014 12:21, Herman wrote:
>> This is how these anecdotes become cemented in history. People don't
>> allow for any doubt or scepticism.
>
> We seem to have wandered a little off track. If you read Osborne, p.92,
> we don't have here a "minor anecdote", but a full account of how the
> young Karajan spent the summer of 1937. Richard Osborne is not known for
> being fanciful, or for making things up. Nor does he say whether the
> endearment was in English or German. Nor - I hazard - does it much
> matter. That intriguing question was asked on this newsgroup.
If Osborne translated the epithet, it could have been anything in German...
> But as the nickname had been around for so many decades before he wrote
> his book, I guess he was keen to tell his readers where and from whom
> "Fluffy" originated. Read the book, and see.
>
> English (and its American variant) was of course extremely fashionable
> amongst the "fast set" in German and Austria from the early 20th century
> until World War 2. A quick look at many an operetta libretto (e.g. 'Die
> Herzogin von Chicago') will show you that.
I agree.
English, and maybe even more "Britishness" was already en vogue from the
1870ties or so in northern Germany, especially port cities like Hamburg
and Bremen. Made fun of in novels by Fontane. Educated people/academics
in Germany/Austria in the first half of the 20th century would usually
be able to understand/speak both French and English, although French
might have been more common in the beginning.
(I think I remember a Schopenhauer edition where French and Latin
quotations were not translated in footnotes whereas Greek and English
ones would be...)
I guess that because of inertia French was more common as a lingua
franca for some time, because it was standard in international diplomacy
and much more common as a second language in Eastern/Southeastern
Europe, the Mediterranean etc. and educated Anglophone people would also
be able to speak French.
---
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> On 24/06/2014 12:21, Herman wrote:
>> This is how these anecdotes become cemented in history. People don't
>> allow for any doubt or scepticism.
>
> We seem to have wandered a little off track. If you read Osborne, p.92,
> we don't have here a "minor anecdote", but a full account of how the
> young Karajan spent the summer of 1937. Richard Osborne is not known for
> being fanciful, or for making things up. Nor does he say whether the
> endearment was in English or German. Nor - I hazard - does it much
> matter. That intriguing question was asked on this newsgroup.
If Osborne translated the epithet, it could have been anything in German...
> But as the nickname had been around for so many decades before he wrote
> his book, I guess he was keen to tell his readers where and from whom
> "Fluffy" originated. Read the book, and see.
>
> English (and its American variant) was of course extremely fashionable
> amongst the "fast set" in German and Austria from the early 20th century
> until World War 2. A quick look at many an operetta libretto (e.g. 'Die
> Herzogin von Chicago') will show you that.
I agree.
English, and maybe even more "Britishness" was already en vogue from the
1870ties or so in northern Germany, especially port cities like Hamburg
and Bremen. Made fun of in novels by Fontane. Educated people/academics
in Germany/Austria in the first half of the 20th century would usually
be able to understand/speak both French and English, although French
might have been more common in the beginning.
(I think I remember a Schopenhauer edition where French and Latin
quotations were not translated in footnotes whereas Greek and English
ones would be...)
I guess that because of inertia French was more common as a lingua
franca for some time, because it was standard in international diplomacy
and much more common as a second language in Eastern/Southeastern
Europe, the Mediterranean etc. and educated Anglophone people would also
be able to speak French.
---
Diese E-Mail ist frei von Viren und Malware, denn der avast! Antivirus Schutz ist aktiv.
http://www.avast.com
Terry
Jun 25, 2014, 4:00:35 AM6/25/14
to
In article <c0u341...@mid.individual.net>, Christopher Webber
There's Sarah Quigley's "The Conductor", set in Leningrad at the time
Shostakovich composed his Leningrad symphony. I haven't read it.
Shostakovich composed his Leningrad symphony. I haven't read it.
Terry
Jun 25, 2014, 4:19:40 AM6/25/14
to
In article <77cc8075-137b-4a2e...@googlegroups.com>,
A few more:
"Appassionata" by Eva Hoffman
"Wunderkind" by Nicholai Grozni
The Loser, By Thomas Bernhard
And I'd forgotten "Doctor Faustus" by Thomas Mann.
"Appassionata" by Eva Hoffman
"Wunderkind" by Nicholai Grozni
The Loser, By Thomas Bernhard
And I'd forgotten "Doctor Faustus" by Thomas Mann.
Al Eisner
Jun 25, 2014, 2:47:48 PM6/25/14
to
On Mon, 23 Jun 2014, Christopher Webber wrote:
> On 23/06/2014 15:50, Frank Berger wrote:
>> At this point it would be useful for someone to provide actual evidence
>> for the usage of "fluffy." Something in print perhaps. That might
>> convince Steve. I don't recall him being so unreasonably intractable in
>> the past, do I? Aside, perhaps, from his nit-picking much of what
>> Matthew says.
>
> I already gave him a printed source, Frank, which he chose to ignore -
> namely, Richard Osborne's 1998 biography. If this particular Doubting Thomas
> wishes to stick his nit-picking digit right into the wound, he should look at
> p.92.
It seems obvious that "Fluffy" predates rmcr (I hadn't quite realized
that previously), and I'm even happy to accept Osborne's suggested
source. But one thing this long thread hasn't yet told me (I admit
I haven't carefully read every post) is what it *means*. It just
seems so inappropriate for von Karajan. What is behind it, and
why did it apparently catch on?
It's one of those rmcr things which I've long been resigned to not
understanding. ("Darth Veda", with its odd, and I assume intentional,
misspelling, is another.)
--
Al Eisner
> On 23/06/2014 15:50, Frank Berger wrote:
>> At this point it would be useful for someone to provide actual evidence
>> for the usage of "fluffy." Something in print perhaps. That might
>> convince Steve. I don't recall him being so unreasonably intractable in
>> the past, do I? Aside, perhaps, from his nit-picking much of what
>> Matthew says.
>
> I already gave him a printed source, Frank, which he chose to ignore -
> namely, Richard Osborne's 1998 biography. If this particular Doubting Thomas
> wishes to stick his nit-picking digit right into the wound, he should look at
> p.92.
It seems obvious that "Fluffy" predates rmcr (I hadn't quite realized
that previously), and I'm even happy to accept Osborne's suggested
source. But one thing this long thread hasn't yet told me (I admit
I haven't carefully read every post) is what it *means*. It just
seems so inappropriate for von Karajan. What is behind it, and
why did it apparently catch on?
It's one of those rmcr things which I've long been resigned to not
understanding. ("Darth Veda", with its odd, and I assume intentional,
misspelling, is another.)
--
Al Eisner
O
Jun 25, 2014, 2:58:52 PM6/25/14
to
In article
<alpine.LRH.2.00.1...@iris02.slac.stanford.edu>, Al
one ever know what a term of endearment means? He obviously liked her
enough to tolerate the name, and used it enough that Osborne picked up
on it (unless he made it up to perk up his book). We'll have to loose
the hounds of musicology on the subject to try to track down another
authoritative reference, or die trying.
competition, whom Tom suspects of favoring her own students.
-Owen
<alpine.LRH.2.00.1...@iris02.slac.stanford.edu>, Al
Eisner <eis...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Jun 2014, Christopher Webber wrote:
>
> > On 23/06/2014 15:50, Frank Berger wrote:
> >> At this point it would be useful for someone to provide actual evidence
> >> for the usage of "fluffy." Something in print perhaps. That might
> >> convince Steve. I don't recall him being so unreasonably intractable in
> >> the past, do I? Aside, perhaps, from his nit-picking much of what
> >> Matthew says.
> >
> > I already gave him a printed source, Frank, which he chose to ignore -
> > namely, Richard Osborne's 1998 biography. If this particular Doubting
> > Thomas
> > wishes to stick his nit-picking digit right into the wound, he should look
> > at
> > p.92.
>
> It seems obvious that "Fluffy" predates rmcr (I hadn't quite realized
> that previously), and I'm even happy to accept Osborne's suggested
> source. But one thing this long thread hasn't yet told me (I admit
> I haven't carefully read every post) is what it *means*. It just
> seems so inappropriate for von Karajan. What is behind it, and
> why did it apparently catch on?
If she called him "Mein Leibchen" you wouldn't question it - how would
> On Mon, 23 Jun 2014, Christopher Webber wrote:
>
> > On 23/06/2014 15:50, Frank Berger wrote:
> >> At this point it would be useful for someone to provide actual evidence
> >> for the usage of "fluffy." Something in print perhaps. That might
> >> convince Steve. I don't recall him being so unreasonably intractable in
> >> the past, do I? Aside, perhaps, from his nit-picking much of what
> >> Matthew says.
> >
> > I already gave him a printed source, Frank, which he chose to ignore -
> > namely, Richard Osborne's 1998 biography. If this particular Doubting
> > Thomas
> > wishes to stick his nit-picking digit right into the wound, he should look
> > at
> > p.92.
>
> It seems obvious that "Fluffy" predates rmcr (I hadn't quite realized
> that previously), and I'm even happy to accept Osborne's suggested
> source. But one thing this long thread hasn't yet told me (I admit
> I haven't carefully read every post) is what it *means*. It just
> seems so inappropriate for von Karajan. What is behind it, and
> why did it apparently catch on?
one ever know what a term of endearment means? He obviously liked her
enough to tolerate the name, and used it enough that Osborne picked up
on it (unless he made it up to perk up his book). We'll have to loose
the hounds of musicology on the subject to try to track down another
authoritative reference, or die trying.
>
> It's one of those rmcr things which I've long been resigned to not
> understanding. ("Darth Veda", with its odd, and I assume intentional,
> misspelling, is another.)
That's a Deaconism, referring to a particular jurist in a piano
> It's one of those rmcr things which I've long been resigned to not
> understanding. ("Darth Veda", with its odd, and I assume intentional,
> misspelling, is another.)
competition, whom Tom suspects of favoring her own students.
-Owen
Christopher Webber
Jun 25, 2014, 3:01:05 PM6/25/14
to
On 25/06/2014 19:47, Al Eisner wrote:
> It seems obvious that "Fluffy" predates rmcr (I hadn't quite realized
> that previously), and I'm even happy to accept Osborne's suggested
> source. But one thing this long thread hasn't yet told me (I admit
> I haven't carefully read every post) is what it *means*. It just
> seems so inappropriate for von Karajan. What is behind it, and
> why did it apparently catch on?
Look at his hair. Then imagine how it must have looked when he was in
> It seems obvious that "Fluffy" predates rmcr (I hadn't quite realized
> that previously), and I'm even happy to accept Osborne's suggested
> source. But one thing this long thread hasn't yet told me (I admit
> I haven't carefully read every post) is what it *means*. It just
> seems so inappropriate for von Karajan. What is behind it, and
> why did it apparently catch on?
his mid-twenties.
His only rival is Carl ("luftig") Nielsen.
Al Eisner
Jun 25, 2014, 3:07:00 PM6/25/14
to
On Wed, 25 Jun 2014, O wrote:
> If she called him "Mein Leibchen" you wouldn't question it - how would
> one ever know what a term of endearment means?
Sure. I just wouldn't expect such to become public and in wider use.
> If she called him "Mein Leibchen" you wouldn't question it - how would
> one ever know what a term of endearment means?
Perhaps in an ironical way.
> the hounds of musicology
I like that image.
--
Al Eisner
Al Eisner
Jun 25, 2014, 5:15:20 PM6/25/14
to
On Wed, 25 Jun 2014, Al Eisner wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jun 2014, O wrote:
>
>> If she called him "Mein Leibchen" you wouldn't question it - how would
>> one ever know what a term of endearment means?
>
> Sure. I just wouldn't expect such to become public and in wider use.
> Perhaps in an ironical way.
To expand on this one last time: based on a google groups search, this
> On Wed, 25 Jun 2014, O wrote:
>
>> If she called him "Mein Leibchen" you wouldn't question it - how would
>> one ever know what a term of endearment means?
>
> Sure. I just wouldn't expect such to become public and in wider use.
> Perhaps in an ironical way.
use of "Fluffy" was unknown within rmcr until Simon Roberts reported
(in Jan. 1999) on the statement in Osborne's 1998 biography. It caught
on very quickly in rmcr, which of course is a hotbed of irony. To
those who heard the term used outside of rmcr: was this before 1998?
(That is, I'm wondering if it only became public after Osborne
reported it.) Almost surely my last post on the subject!
--
Al Eisner
Al Eisner
Jun 25, 2014, 6:11:47 PM6/25/14
to
On Wed, 25 Jun 2014, Al Eisner wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jun 2014, Al Eisner wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 25 Jun 2014, O wrote:
>>
>>> If she called him "Mein Leibchen" you wouldn't question it - how would
>>> one ever know what a term of endearment means?
>>
>> Sure. I just wouldn't expect such to become public and in wider use.
>> Perhaps in an ironical way.
>
> To expand on this one last time: based on a google groups search, this
> use of "Fluffy" was unknown within rmcr until Simon Roberts reported
> (in Jan. 1999) on the statement in Osborne's 1998 biography. It caught
> on very quickly in rmcr, which of course is a hotbed of irony. To
> those who heard the term used outside of rmcr: was this before 1998?
Okay, I see Christopher has answered this already, no need to repeat.
> On Wed, 25 Jun 2014, Al Eisner wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 25 Jun 2014, O wrote:
>>
>>> If she called him "Mein Leibchen" you wouldn't question it - how would
>>> one ever know what a term of endearment means?
>>
>> Sure. I just wouldn't expect such to become public and in wider use.
>> Perhaps in an ironical way.
>
> To expand on this one last time: based on a google groups search, this
> use of "Fluffy" was unknown within rmcr until Simon Roberts reported
> (in Jan. 1999) on the statement in Osborne's 1998 biography. It caught
> on very quickly in rmcr, which of course is a hotbed of irony. To
> those who heard the term used outside of rmcr: was this before 1998?
(As I said, I hadn't thoroughly read everything in the thread.)
--
Al Eisner
Willem Orange
Jun 25, 2014, 7:08:02 PM6/25/14
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