Neeme Jarvi: proficient, skilled, soulless performances

[Gerard]

I'm referring to a recent review on MusicWeb (about symphonies by
Atterberg).
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Mar14/Atterberg_sys_v12_CHSA5116.htm

The reviewer is deeply disappointed by almost everything Järvi recorded.

A few quotes:

""Neeme Järvi’s continuing Atterberg symphony cycle is frustrating in a way
that sums up Järvi’s entire career. It both promotes and trivializes
little-known music by treating it to proficient, skilled, soulless
performances. An Atterberg album is a strange place for a music critic to
take a firm stand, but I’m afraid I have a lot to say.""

""He treats almost every composer this way. His lack of empathy contaminates
his Chabrier album (my colleague Dan Morgan says “incidental charm and
colouristic touches barely register”), his Saint-Saëns (my 2012 review seems
never to have been published: “missing the last degree of romantic
passion”), his Suppé (my colleague John Sheppard notes “lack of
commitment”), his Tchaikovsky ballets (Nick Barnard was “hugely
disappointed”), his Tchaikovsky Sixth Symphony (John Quinn finds he
“underplays” emotions “to the point of coolness”), and his Bruckner (“too
damned fast,” gripes Gavin Dixon). ""

""Neeme Järvi will leave behind one of the most conflicted legacies of any
conductor. He was a passionate advocate for unknown music, but his passion
typically evaporated on the podium. He persuaded the CEO of BIS to let him
record the symphonies of Eduard Tubin, a composer whose music I did not like
until I heard albums by other conductors.""

""He adds lots of unheard music into his repertoire, but rarely thinks about
how to interpret it idiomatically and compassionately. He eagerly takes on
projects recording obscure composers like Atterberg, and then his approach
trivializes them.""


Is this how "we" think about Neeme Järvi?
Didn't he make better recordings than the ones mentioned? Prokofiev?
Shostakovich? Sibelius?
No favorites?

[richard...@gmail.com]

I feel much the same way about Jarvi. Every cycle I have bought of his has been disappointing. Jarvi is OK if you want to hear something and nobody else has done it yet. The worst of these that I bought is the Schmidt symphonies on Chandos. I had heard Schmidt on the Decca recording of the 4th, and 2 Austrian radio LPs. I trusted that well-reviewed recordings on a good label would at least be better than the ORF LPs which were not very good to begin with. Not so.
It's almost as though these were just sight readings, or, even worse, the orchestral equivalent of a piano roll made without a pianist but simply by piercing paper rolls in regular spacings. (I have one of those too in what purported to be contemporaneous original rag time piano recordings on piano roll.)
Richard

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 25.03.2014 12:51, Gerard wrote:
> Is this how "we" think about Neeme Järvi?

This is how some people think about music which does not underline what
they interpret as "emotions". It is like complaining that food wasn't
pre-chewed before serving. It is also expecting that everything they are
presented with be food.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[Bob Harper]

I am hard pressed to think of any Jarvi performance of anything that I prefer to available alternatives. I'm glad he recorded the symphonies of Franz Schmidt, but where there are alternatives (#4), I don't have his. And there are better alternatives in Tubin as well. I may have missed something wonderful, but I don't know what.

Bob Harper

[Gerard]

"Bob Harper" wrote in message
news:94b71f9b-7a35-4863...@googlegroups.com...

I am hard pressed to think of any Jarvi performance of anything that I
prefer to available alternatives. I'm glad he recorded the symphonies of
Franz Schmidt, but where there are alternatives (#4), I don't have his. And
there are better alternatives in Tubin as well. I may have missed something
wonderful, but I don't know what.

================================

I don't know alternatives for the Tubin symphonies.
I see Volmer has recorded them all (for Alba). How much "better" are his
recordings?

[Gerard]

"Bob Harper" wrote in message
news:94b71f9b-7a35-4863...@googlegroups.com...

===============

I have pressed myself too - to think about a favorite recording by Neeme
Järvi.
A very few short pieces by Sibelius - maybe. But his Overture 1812 recording
really is one:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tchaikovsky-1812-Overture-Marche-slave/dp/B000001GDT/

(The other items on this disc get very good performances too.)

[Oscar]

What about his Prokofiev 6 w/ SNO? I think it's excellent.

[jrsnfld]

On Tuesday, March 25, 2014 8:10:39 AM UTC-7, richard...@gmail.com wrote:

>The worst of these that I bought is the Schmidt symphonies on Chandos. I had heard Schmidt on the Decca recording of the 4th, and 2 Austrian radio LPs. I trusted that well-reviewed recordings on a good label would at least be better than the ORF LPs which were not very good to begin with. Not so.
>
> It's almost as though these were just sight readings, or, even worse, the orchestral equivalent of a piano roll made without a pianist but simply by piercing paper rolls in regular spacings. (I have one of those too in what purported to be contemporaneous original rag time piano recordings on piano roll.)

The problem in the Schmidt cycle is not Jarvi, and the orchestral playing seems excellent. Far from sight-reading.

Unfortunately, the Chandos sound is horribly diffuse, which makes it very difficult to hear the counterpoint, the orchestration, etc. You're fighting some of the worst engineering of the digital era--it's amazing any detail gets through the fog.

--Jeff

[John Wiser]

"Oscar" <oscaredwar...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ea4dbcb9-cfe4-4bed...@googlegroups.com...

> What about his Prokofiev 6 w/ SNO? I think it's excellent.
>

You are not alone, I'm sorry to tell you.

jdw

[Dana John Hill]

Right on! I've had that disc for a long time, and it's still an 1812
that I value, especially if I want to hear it with the chorus. Plus, the
Borodin selections there are really outstanding, and not at all
emotionless or soulless. In fact, I think they're really persuasive.

Jaervi may not be in the same league as some of the giants whose
recordings we all treasure, but I am still grateful to have a lot of
this repertoire on record at all. I don't exactly see conductors
tripping over themselves to record Maximilian Steinberg's symphonies.

Dana John Hill
Gainesville, Florida

[tozzi...@gmail.com]

I agree with Dana. The Steinberg Symphonies are treasurable and way back when, Neeme was recording compositions that other greater conductors ignored. So, all in all, Mr. Jarvi has had a valuable career and introduced many of us to unfairly neglected pieces.

[richard...@gmail.com]

Perhaps you are right. Perhaps, though, the reverse is true. I bought his, and the ORF Schmidt recordings, because the Mehta VPO symphony no 4 made me think the rest might have been 'unfairly neglected'. Jarvi did his best to persuade me that they deserved their neglect. The ORF LPs showed there was still perhaps a 'there' in the other symphonies.
I also have Jarvi's Berwald. It was a Markevitch Heliodor that drew to Berwald: bought only because I was curious. I later got the EMI set of Berwald on LPs, and once more drawn by reviews thought the new recording on DG might add something. It didn't. Had I come to Berwald in reverse order (Jarvi first) I doubt that I would have ever tried again- yet Berwald really was unfairly neglected.
Perhaps Atterberg is too . .
I have put the Jarvi Schmidt symphony no 4 on to listen to as I write. My impressions have not changed. The recording doesn't seem too bad- clear, no distortion- not much of a sound stage but most CD's don't offer that anyway. The orchestra plays well. There don't seem to be any obvious errors. It's just, to use an a analogy, like hearing a Shakespeare sonnet recited in a dull monotone with no inflection. You just find yourself thinking 'how much longer will this go on?'- and you shouldn't with this music. That's why I used the piano roll analogy: all the notes are there, in the right order, but somehow the music isn't.
If you have it, try the Mehta recording and Jarvi recordings back to back, or Markevitch and Jarvi Berwald.
I don't think that did Schmidt's music much of a favour.

[Ray Hall]

richard...@gmail.com wrote:

> It was a Markevitch Heliodor that drew to Berwald:
bought only because I was curious.
>

Jarvi's Prokofiev is generally decent enough, but I am a tad
disappointed with the Berwald symphonies under Jarvi. These are works
that require a sense of mystery, and while well played don't displace
memories of a performance, especially of the Singuliere, heard many
moons ago, probably on Heliodor.

As for Atterberg, I have the Ari Rasilainen box of the symphonies, and
for me these works are not keepers. Bloated and empty beyond compare. So
how Jarvi does these has no interest for me.

I am however quite pleased with Jarvi's Martinu symphonies with the
Bamberg SO.

It seems to me Jarvi excels more in the more motoric type of music,
where the emotional attachment required is lower.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Christopher Webber]

On 26/03/2014 00:39, Ray Hall wrote:
> I am however quite pleased with Jarvi's Martinu symphonies with the
> Bamberg SO.

A cycle I jettisoned some while ago. Jarvi simply doesn't seem authentic
in style, and the sound is antiquated. Efficient performances, but in my
opinion rarely better than that.

There's a lot more to be said for two, more recent sets - the majestic,
subtle Bělohlávek/BBC SO set on Onyx, and the red-blooded Válek/Prague
Radio SO set on Supraphon.

Lots of very marvellous single issues of various symphonies of course.

[Ed Presson]

"Ray Hall" wrote in message news:lgt7k4$9r6$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> snip <

>I am however quite pleased with Jarvi's Martinu symphonies with the Bamberg
>SO.

>It seems to me Jarvi excels more in the more motoric type of music, where
>the emotional attachment required is lower.

>Ray Hall, Taree

I agree with this observation. I have some of Jarvi's Bartok, Prokofiev,
Roussel, Stravinsky, Shostakovich, et. al., although not nearly as much as
he has recorded. Some of these are okay; but almost none would I keep if I
had to pare down to one recording of each work. I like his Stravinsky:
Symphony in 3 Movements; it's among my favorites of this work. The only
real keeper for me is his Shostakovich Fourth.

Years ago, Jarvi guest-conducted the Seattle Symphony orchestra in a program
that included the Nielsen Fifth Symphony, and I was really looking forward
to that concert. I would not have believed that it would be possible to
drain all the excitement from that work, but Jarvi did it. It was the most
bland, insipid performance of the Fifth
Symphony that I've ever heard-in concert or on recordings. I was terribly
disappointed. A decade or two later he returned to conduct a program that I
cannot remember: nothing memorably good or memorably bad.

Ed Presson

[Ray Hall]

Have you heard Byden Thomson's set on Chandos, and if so what are your
thoughts on it?

My first exposure to Martinu was Turnovsky's 4th, and then later I owned
the Neumann set on Supraphon, which I wore out. Figuratively of course.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Terry]

In article <787038bc-a974-4cd0...@googlegroups.com>,

<"richard...@gmail.com"> wrote:

> On Tuesday, March 25, 2014 7:51:07 AM UTC-4, Gerard wrote:
> > I'm referring to a recent review on MusicWeb (about symphonies by
> >
> > Atterberg).
> >
> >
> > http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Mar14/Atterberg_sys_v12_
> > CHSA5116.htm
> >
> >
> >
> > The reviewer is deeply disappointed by almost everything Järvi recorded.
>

<snip>

> >
> >
> > Is this how "we" think about Neeme Järvi?
> >
> > Didn't he make better recordings than the ones mentioned? Prokofiev?
> >
> > Shostakovich? Sibelius?
> >
> > No favorites?
>
> I feel much the same way about Jarvi. Every cycle I have bought of his has
> been disappointing. Jarvi is OK if you want to hear something and nobody else
> has done it yet. The worst of these that I bought is the Schmidt symphonies
> on Chandos. I had heard Schmidt on the Decca recording of the 4th, and 2
> Austrian radio LPs. I trusted that well-reviewed recordings on a good label
> would at least be better than the ORF LPs which were not very good to begin
> with. Not so.
> It's almost as though these were just sight readings, or, even worse, the
> orchestral equivalent of a piano roll made without a pianist but simply by piercing paper rolls in regular spacings. (I have one of those too in what purported to be contemporaneous original rag time piano recordings on piano roll.)
> Richard

I think his Dvorak symphonies are good, and very well recorded, if not
amongst the absolute front-runners. And I like his Prokofiev
symphonies. I think he did some pretty good recordings of American
composers while he was in Detroit, and his Martinu symphonies are fine.

[wanwan]

The Shostakovich Symphonies on Chandos are quite good with the 10th/4th ballet suite being one of my all time favorites of the works. The Estonian orchestral volumes are worth getting. The Richard Strauss Orchestral Lieder discs with Felicity Lott are excellent. The Kalinnikov Symphonies disc and his Glazunov from the Middle Ages are worth picking up.

There was a Rach 2nd broadcast with RCOA that was one of the greatest performances of the symphony I've ever heard. Too bad it never came out in the orchestra's Anthology series. Kondrashin's recoring in the set is disappointing.

--------
Eric

[Mr. Mike]

On Wed, 26 Mar 2014 11:39:10 +1100, Ray Hall
<raymon...@bigpond.com> wrote:

>As for Atterberg, I have the Ari Rasilainen box of the symphonies, and
>for me these works are not keepers. Bloated and empty beyond compare. So
>how Jarvi does these has no interest for me.

I remember once reading that the film music composer Jerry Goldsmith
was a fan of symphonies by "Atterberg." I thought surely this was a
mistake, he more likely said "Alban Berg."

[Randy Lane]

On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 7:46:29 AM UTC-7, Mr. Mike wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Mar 2014 11:39:10 +1100, Ray Hall <raymon...@bigpond.com> wrote: >As for Atterberg, I have the Ari Rasilainen box of the symphonies, and >for me these works are not keepers. Bloated and empty beyond compare. So >how Jarvi does these has no interest for me. I remember once reading that the film music composer Jerry Goldsmith was a fan of symphonies by "Atterberg." I thought surely this was a mistake, he more likely said "Alban Berg."

Alban Berg "Symphonies"???

[jrsnfld]

On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 2:57:56 AM UTC-7, wanwan wrote:

>
> There was a Rach 2nd broadcast with RCOA that was one of the greatest performances of the symphony I've ever heard. Too bad it never came out in the orchestra's Anthology series. Kondrashin's recoring in the set is disappointing.
>

This live performance (or at least the same combination from 2002) can be found on YouTube. Jarvi does fine, indeed, but the principal attraction is the fabulous orchestra.

--Jeff

[Ed Presson]

"Ray Hall" wrote in message news:lgtimo$tis$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

Christopher Webber wrote:
> On 26/03/2014 00:39, Ray Hall wrote:
>> I am however quite pleased with Jarvi's Martinu symphonies with the
>> Bamberg SO.
>
> A cycle I jettisoned some while ago. Jarvi simply doesn't seem authentic
> in style, and the sound is antiquated. Efficient performances, but in my
> opinion rarely better than that.
>
> There's a lot more to be said for two, more recent sets - the majestic,

> subtle Belohlávek/BBC SO set on Onyx, and the red-blooded Válek/Prague

> Radio SO set on Supraphon.
>
> Lots of very marvellous single issues of various symphonies of course.

>Have you heard Byden Thomson's set on Chandos, and if so what are your
>thoughts on it?

>My first exposure to Martinu was Turnovsky's 4th, and then later I owned
>the Neumann set on Supraphon, which I wore out. Figuratively of course.

>Ray Hall, Taree

I realize that this question was not directed to me, but I have the Jarvi
set of Martinu Symphonies, the Turnovsky 4th, the Neumann set,
Belohlávek/BBC SO set on Onyx, some of the Thomson CDs, and some
performances by Ancerl...and I'd like to respond.

Compared to Turnovsky, Ancerl, and other Czech conductors, Thomson pounds
away at the rhythms heavily, completely negating the aspect of Martinu that
I most treasure. I agree that Jarvi doesn't seem authentic in style, but
when I re-hear them Jarvi's recordings aren't as bad as I remembered. An
odd effect.

Ed Presson

[Bob Harper]

I wouldn't mind another Three Pieces.

Bob Harper

[Ray Hall]

Thanks Ed. I have to admit that I like Jarvi too, but often wish
Neumann's recordings were a bit more analytical, instead of being in the
usual reverberant wash on Supraphon.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Christopher Webber]

On 27/03/2014 00:25, Ray Hall wrote:
> but often wish Neumann's recordings were a bit more analytical, instead
> of being in the usual reverberant wash on Supraphon.

Such a disappointment when they first appeared as an 'integral' on LP,
compared with the earlier, single symphony performances by Ancerl,
Turnovsksy, Munch... and the recording is washy, as you say.

Where I would beg to differ is your addition of "usual". Only at that
(early digital) phase did Supraphon fall into the Chandos trap of
mistaking reverberance for spaciousness. The fashion only lasted a few
years, and to my mind this set was the chief sufferer. No such wash
with, say, Ancerl's 'Frescoes' and Double Concerto from earlier; or with
Mackerras's 'Field Mass' later.

Still, the Neumann set was something to be grateful for, back in the
days when the 1st, 2nd and even 3rd Symphonies were otherwise almost
impossible to hear.

[gggg gggg]

(Recent Y. upload):

Neeme Järvi's 10 Best Recordings Previewed, or, How To Be Great Without Mozart, Beethoven and Brahms

[gggg gggg]

(Recent Y. u.):

Dave's Faves No. 110 (Rimsky-Korsakov)

[Gerard]

Op 2022-06-28 om 23:54 schreef gggg gggg:

In this case (Rimsky-Korsakov's suites from operas) I concur with the
quoted reviewer on Musicweb-international.
Järvi's performances of these suites are rather medioce, compared to
recordings by Zinman, Bakels, Schwarz, and (best of all) Serov, or
Ansermet or Tjeknavorian (to name a few who have made recordings of
several of those suites).

[Gerard]

Op woensdag 29 juni 2022 om 11:17:36 UTC+2 schreef Gerard:

It must be the third time now (it's boring) that Dave H. praises Jarvi's mediocre recordings of Rimky's opera suites to heaven ("one of the most exciting things happening in music", "the sonics are amazing", "a wonderful revelation").
This time not just as the only works by Rimsky that should be saved when all other works would be forbidden or destroyed, but also as the absolutely best recordings of these works - which they are not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMtsCvBjbEU