Best Stravinsky "Rite", or several?
bpnjensen
appreciate some suggestions for a half-dozen or so better performances
on CD - do not need perfect DDD sound, but good stereo would be nice.
I understand, possibly in error, that Stravinsky's own performance on
Sony is high up there - any others that are strong contenders? My
gratitude in advance, and very Happy Thanksgiving to all of our U.S.
participants...
Bruce Jensen
Frank Berger
Lots of good ones.
Not stereo, but the 1951 Boston/Monteux is indespensible. Also,
Dorati/Minneapolis, 1959
Markevitch/Philharmonia, 1959
Bernstein/NYPO, 1958
I guess I'm stuck in the 50's.
Lawrence Chalmers
Muti/Philly worth it even though sound isn;t that great, but the
performance is outstanding.
Monteux/Boston as mentioned
above.
Ozawa/CSO
Bernstein/NY Phil on Sony
are a few that come to mind...
Matthew�B.�Tepper
following letters to be typed in
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Let me move it forward a bit:
Stravinsky/Columbia SO (1960)
Boulez/Cleveland O (July 1969)
Mehta/Los Angeles PO (August 1969)
If you're having only one of those three, get Boulez.
--
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The Pale One
The Markevitch/Philharmonia recording on EMI from 1959 is my benchmark
in this piece.
For a modern recording, I would highly recommend the Tilson Thomas/San
Francisco recording on BMG which is perhaps the best-recorded Rite I
have ever heard (and I've heard them all).
Taree Dawg
> On Nov 25, 9:31 pm, bpnjensen <bpnjen...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Hi - Not being terribly familiar with The Rite of Spring, I would
>> appreciate some suggestions for a half-dozen or so better performances
>> on CD - do not need perfect DDD sound, but good stereo would be nice.
>> I understand, possibly in error, that Stravinsky's own performance on
>> Sony is high up there - any others that are strong contenders? My
>> gratitude in advance, and very Happy Thanksgiving to all of our U.S.
>> participants...
>>
>> Bruce Jensen
>
> The Markevitch/Philharmonia recording on EMI from 1959 is my benchmark
> in this piece.
It is mine too. All other recordings pale into insignificance. Actually,
dare I say it, but Haitink on a Duo is fairly good for a more sober but
involving account. Both are decent soundwise.
Ray Hall, Taree
Ray Hall, Taree
Mike
the one I'd want if I were to be stranded on a desert island with only
one Rite recording.
Gerard
For me Stravinksy's own recording is of high historical interest, but not a
preferable recording in such a crowded field.
Almost the same about recordings by Monteux.
Favorites in /not/ good stereo:
- Markevitch (2 versions on Testament, one of them in mono)
Favorites in good stereo:
- Boulez with the Cleveland Orchestra on Sony
Favorites in very good stereo:
- Chailly (also with the Cleveland Orchestra) on Decca
- Tilson Thomas on RCA
- Gergiev on Philips
- Nagano on Virgin
Gerard
> You'd only need one (if it's on CD..) - Pierre Boulez conducting
> Orchestre Nationale, Paris (FNRO) - from 1963.
>
> Even as a UK mono 'Concert Hall' LP this not only has remarkably life-
> like sound but the performance is little short of remarkable: it is
> notably well-played - 'committed' - dynamic - and endlessly rewarding
> to listen to; sounds 'fresh' every time.
Isn't that the Boulez recording Stravinsly was very critical about?
Gerard
> Well - Stravinsky didn't 'admire' Ansermet's recording/s either...
Who does?
He did not like Karajan's first recording either.
But I presume you've answered my question with "yes".
>
> 'so
> whaddya think' - 'I think you need a new needle' !!
>
> Give it a listen - I can't vouch for the transfer quality (of the LP)
> - but it really is special - and (hardly surprisingly) it won a Grand
> Prix du Disque.
> Under other circumstances I wouldn't have hesitated to upload it....
Maybe later (later today).
wagnerfan
news:12d68$4b0e5181$5ed13b3d$31...@cache5.tilbu1.nb.home.nl...
Funny that I was just perusing an old issue Stereo Review from the mid-60s
and the article was Stravinsky giving a very detailed critique of three
recordings of Rite including the Boulez. I'll hunt it up again to post his
final thoughts on the three. Wagner fan
johan kindt
My list:
- Stravinsky's own reference recording on Sony:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rite-Spring-Firebird-Igor-Stravinsky/dp/B00006AW4T/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1259230685&sr=1-6
- Ancerl on Supraphon (very Russian and typical sound of the Czech
Philh. O.):
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Karel-Ancerl-Gold-Vol-5-Stravinsky/dp/B00007852G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1259230868&sr=1-1
- Eötvös (objective, Junge Deutsche Philharmonie):
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stravinsky-Mavra-Rite-Spring-Igor/dp/B000ENC6OQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1259231042&sr=1-1
- Markevitch on Testament:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stravinsky-Sacre-Du-Printemps-Igor/dp/B000003XJH/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1259231201&sr=1-2
- Gergiev on Philips: (extreme, extrovert and very spectacular):
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stravinsky-Rite-Spring-Valery-Gergiev/dp/B00005NIF6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1259231321&sr=1-2
- Simonov on Regis (low price and in a way very accessible for the
listener): http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rite-Spring-Igor-Stravinsky/dp/B000OCZ87Y/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1259231427&sr=1-2
Taree Dawg
I don't know, but Stravinsky was very critical of HvK's first recording
of the Rite.
Ray Hall, Taree
Gerard
I don't know what you mean by your last sentence.
But if you like to post Stravinsky's thoughts on does-not-matter-how-many
recordings, it would be very appreciated.
3Bs
NYPO Bernstein in favor of the later LSO one, and the only plac e to
get the New York one is in the Original Jackets box? Very irritating.
Kip Williams
> I think it's good to have a piano version in stock as well. The piece sounds
> even more barbaric as piano four hands, and the recording I really prefer is
> that by Fazil Say, on Teldec. (All four hands are his, by the way.)
I'm partial to the pianola version that was supervised by Stravinsky and
realized for the recording by Rex Lawson. As a bonus, there's an
orchestral version on the disk as well that takes its cues from the
tempos approved by Stravinsky.
Solo versions by Raphling (played by Atamian) and Achatz are worth a
listen as well. Achatz's is more notey, and Raphling's is purposely a
little less so and more pianistic. It knocked my socks off, seeing
Atamian playing the thing in concert. At the start of each section, he'd
be fairly composed, and by the end of it, he'd be sodden and any toss of
his head would radiate glistening drops. I taped the audio off the air
(video was still a handful of years away) and listened to it until I
found an LP of the music.
Kip W
wagnerfan
news:bba91$4b0e7d15$5ed13b3d$31...@cache3.tilbu1.nb.home.nl...
The article is in the Februry 1965 Hi fi Stereo Review and is a detailed
critique by Stravinsky of three Rite recordings - DGG Berlin with Karajan,
ORTF Nonesuch with Boulez and Moscow State cond by Robert Craft on
"Amalgamated Unions Gramaphone Studio". His final resumes are abbreviated
here:
Karajan - too polished, a fault with style of articulation in that the notes
are given the same literal sostenuto value they would have in Brahms or
Wagner which dampens the energy of the music, Stravinsky writes that
"Karajan is not out of his depth in this music but in the shallows which is
to say simple concretions and reifications - :"there are no regions here for
Germanic soul searching"
Boulez - the recording itself suffers from "mezzo-forte emasculation" which
is why a live performance is always a revelation to those whi have heard it
only on records. Performance - excellent but not as good as Stravinsky had
hoped - there is some sloppiness, bad tempi and unnecessary and
inappropriate alterations. But articulation is good and a good antidote to
the Karajan.
Craft - live performance so the sound cannot compare to the other two but
whereas the "French orch turned Sacre into a French piece and the German
orch into a German piece, the Russian turns into a Russian piece which is
just right" He writes that he has no space to explain what he means by that
(!) He finishes by saying that the performance must have sounded "like the
battle cry of the sans-culottes to the very conservative Russian audience -
compare this to America where it has become a conductors showpiece for the
one-rehearsal concerts in the Hollywood Bowl" (!!!)
Naturally the whole long article should be read to really get his thoughts
Wagner Fan
3Bs
Boulez Cleveland on Sony and the Markevitch on Testament. Gotta love
that CD for having a mono and stereo recording, both excellent.
A few odder recordings that I have also enjoyedm though which would
not displace the popular studio recordings here:
Fricsay and his Berlin RIAS on DG- very forcful and violent when
required, but with character, too.
Ancerl live on Tahra- the sound of his orchestra seems quite earthy (I
know that isn't very helpful) and Ancerl's reading is more romantic
and free with the phrasing than one might expect.
Tilson Thomas/Boston on DG. It would be fun to put this against the
Monteux recording, which seems to be the biggest omission of my
collection.
Has nobody mentioned Muti? A top choice for a violent and powerful
performance.
Performances that haven't done much for me include Suitner, Karajan,
Fruhbeck, and Solti, the latter a fine performance sabatoged by
Decca's engineers.
William Sommerwerck
Stravinsky set cheaply, it's a good deal.)
My favorite remains the Fedoseev with the Moscow Radio Symphony on MMG (Moss
Music Group -- ie, Vox) MCD 10029. It is, unfortunately, out of print. (Are
you listening, Arkiv?) It was also issues as a premium LP.
Gerard
> �@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Thanks.
Re the "conductors showpiece": the piece also is since long a "we have build a
new hall (or rebuild an old one) and now we shall show to you how it sounds"
showpiece.
O
<697bf198-883e-4156...@a10g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
I'm going to recommend Tilson Thomas with the BSO along with a tepid
Petroushka from Dutoit on this disk:
http://www.amazon.com/Stravinsky-printemps-Spring-%C3%A9toiles-Petrouchk
a/dp/B0009ORGN6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1259247675&sr=1-1
Tilson Thomas's Rite is spectacular on this disk and the BSO playing is
superb. This is knock your socks off Rite of Spring and Thomas nails
it. Great sound too. DGG sent their best engineers to Symphony Hall
to tape this one, and it is one of the best.
-Owen
-Owen
Gerard
> Has nobody mentioned Muti?
Not yet.
> A top choice for a violent and powerful
> performance.
Since the mentioning-every-good-recording is a good tradition:
Colin Davis with the Concertgeouw Orchestra (Philips - with splendid recordings
of Petruchka and The Firebird).
What was available once as a download on his site:
Currentzis, IIRC with his Ensemble Aeterna, recorded in Novosibirsk.
>
> Performances that haven't done much for me include Suitner, Karajan,
> Fruhbeck, and Solti, the latter a fine performance sabatoged by
> Decca's engineers.
Abbado's recording is the sabotaged one. But by different engineers.
I just listened to the first 5 minutes of both recordings. Abbado's has a
completely artificial sound image, compared to which Solti's sounds like an
impressive recording made in a great hall.
Allen
<snip>
> It's a pretty durable piece, I think. Of all the repertoire I can think of,
> the gap between the ￜbestￜ and the ￜworstￜ recordings is amongst the
> smallest. In my opinion, quality of the recording is a big factor. Dorati in
> Detroit is a good one; so is Markevich with the Philharmonia (everybody loves
> the big tamtam crash). Tilson Thomas, either in San Francisco or in Boston,
> is excellent too, as is Chailly in Cleveland.
Glad to know that someone agrees with me about Dorati/Detroit; the
over-emphasis on the percussion might be too much for many people, but
for me it adds to the barbaric sense of the piece (or song, as they say
in AppleLand). I also like Stravinsky's approach. Unfortunatly, I've
never picked up any of Monteux's recordings of it on CD, but I really
liked the LP on RCA.
>
> The best performance I ever heard was a radio broadcast of a concert
> conducted by Leif Segerstam, but I don't know that he's ever recorded it.
>
> I think it's good to have a piano version in stock as well. The piece sounds
> even more barbaric as piano four hands, and the recording I really prefer is
> that by Fazil Say, on Teldec. (All four hands are his, by the way.)
Is Fazil Say one of those Indonesian Gods/Goddesses with 8 or 10
-perhaps more--arms with a hand on each one?
Allen
Heck51
> Hi - Not being terribly familiar with The Rite of Spring, I would
> appreciate some suggestions for a half-dozen or so better performances
> on CD >>
Bernstein/NYPO/1958
Solti/CSO/'74
Boulez/ClevelandO/'69
Mehta/LAPO/'60s
Bob Harper
in 1964, of three versions: the Boulez/FNO, Karajan/BPO (1st version),
and Robert Craft/? (a Russian orchestra, IIRC). He liked Craft best,
and found Boulez too 'French'. That's greatly oversimplified, of course.
The Karajan portion of the article can be found at
http://web.archive.org/web/20050215140253/www.mariinsky.ru/ru/forum/?m=4654.
Here it is:
STRAVINSKY: A REVIEW OF RECENT RECORDINGS OF LE SACRE DU PRINTEMPS, 1964.
а) Berlin Philharmoniker, H.von Karajan, Deutsche Grammophon
Gesellschaft, 1964
1. Introduction
A ritardando has been substituted for the written accelerando in
measures 5-6 and the differen-tiation of tempo primo and tempo secondo,
if any, is imperceptible to me. The triplet, five before 13, is too
slow. As a whole the perfor-mance is too bland, well blended, sustained:
phrases overlap where they should contrast.
2. The Augurs of Springs
The oboe figure at 26 must be played staccato. The second from 28 to 30
is too smooth in this performance. At 31 the horn and contra-basson are
weak and their syncopated notes (like all syncopated notes) need
accents. Articulation would alleviate the plodding at 34.
3. Ritual of Abduction
The tempo, though very fast, is good except when it sounds rushed; I
suspect it was facilita-ted by rebarring, but no matter. An important
fault is the equali-zation of the 2/4 and 6/8 mea-sures toward the end.
The eighths, not the measures, should have the same value.
4. Spring Rounds
The bass clarinets and their pizzicato doublings are weak at the
beginning. Six measures before 54 the orchestral balance is brutally
violated by the trum-pets, and at 54 the metronomic 160 is slower than
the metronomic 132 in the Ritual of Abduc-tion.
5. Ritual of the Rival Tribes
The tempo falters in the first measure, but a more disturbing fault is
the lack of staccato articu-lation. The daggers over the notes three
before 61 should be applied throughout this section: they call for an
exaggerated sharpness. Thereafter the eighths are crisply and admirably
played. At 66 and passim the horns are overbalanced.
6. Procession of the Sage
The trumpets at 70-71 stand out a decibel or so au-dessus de la melee,
and I do not mean melee.
7. The Sage
The string chord is not properly balanced, the higher instruments being
too close to the microphone.
8. Dance of the Earth
The gratuitous accelerando weakens the build-up in the music. Because of
it, too, or partly because of it, the final chord is a shambles.
9. Introduction
I seen to hear a cricket at the beginning; added natural atmosphere? Is
the sleepy tempo also the result of seasonal estivations? The brasses
are weaker than the other strings at 84, and at 85 the piano of the
horns is a forte compared to the piano of the trumpets at 86. The
changes of tempo at 89, 90 -
10. Mystic Circles of the Young Girls
- and 91 are slight in this performance if they exist at all. The
balance at 99 and 100 is perfect, but the level is too loud; the
conductor is probably the victim of the recording engineer who, ideally,
should be his alter ego. The tempo is shaky at the beginning of the
second measure of 103.
11. Glorification of the Chosen One
The tempo is good but the notes should be needle sharp. The molto
allargando before 117 is here played incorrectly as five even beats.
12. Evocation of the Ancestors
This is too slow! The pulsation should be the same as in the preceding
piece, the old eights equaling the new quarters like interlocking wheels.
13. Ritual Action of the Ancestors
Whether or not metronomically correct, this tempo di hoochie-koochie is
definitely too slow, and at 138 the music is duller than Disney's dying
dinosaurs. At 136, second measure, the notes of the triplet must be
separated, not glued together. At 139 the bass trumpet is too feeble for
the powerful English horn, and at 140 the clarinet intonation is bad.
The rubato three measures before 142 is unnecessary and debilitating.
14. Sacrificial Dance
The sluggish tempo gives the coup de grace to whatever tension may have
survived to this point. At 189 the balance is awry, the first trumpet,
among other offenders, being too loud for the trumpet in D.
15. Resume
The recording is generally good, the performance generally odd, though
polished in its own way; in fact, too polished, a pet savage rather than
a real one. The sostenuto style is a principal fault; the lengths of
notes are virtually the same here as they would be in Wagner or Brahms,
which dampens the energy of the music and leaves what rhythmic
enunciation there is sounding laboured. But I should have begun by
saying that the music is alien to the culture of its performers.
Schoenberg recognized it as an assault on the Central European
tradition, saying that it made him think of 'those savage black
potentates who wear only a cravat and a top hat'. (When told, in 1925,
that I had declared his 'twelve-tone system' to be a dead end - a
Sackgasse - he replied with the pun: 'Es gibt keine sacker Gasse als
'Sacre'.') But I doubt whether The Rite can be satisfactory performed in
terms of Herr von Karajan's traditions. I do not mean to imply that he
is out of his depths, however, but rather that he is in my shallows - or
call them simple concretions and reifications. There are simply no
regions for soul-searching in The Rite of Spring.
(c) 1964 Igor Stravinsky, Hi Fi-Stereo Magazine, New York
__________________________________________________________________________
Bob Harper (who has always been partial to Colin Davis/Concertgebouw,
which unfortunately appears to be OOP)
JamesA
> I don't know, but Stravinsky was very critical of HvK's first recording
> of the Rite.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree
True, but Karajan's second recording is marvellous. It's coupled with
his brilliant Prokofiev 5:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Prokofiev-Symphony-Stravinksy-Sacre-printemps/dp/B00004R7X4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1259235964&sr=1-1
When the Rite of Spring was done on Radio 3's Building a Library slot
not too long ago, the Eotvos recording was picked. I've never heard it
(nor, at the time, heard of it), but the reviewer, Rob Cowan, is to be
trusted.
I second everything people have written about Markevitch, Ancerl and
so on. Among modern, great-sounding recordings, my favourite by a mile
is Ozawa with the CSO; Gergiev's recording is the only one that
approaches its ferocity, but his overall performance is far shoddier.
Gerard
> Gerard wrote:
> > tinear wrote:
> > > You'd only need one (if it's on CD..) - Pierre Boulez conducting
> > > Orchestre Nationale, Paris (FNRO) - from 1963.
> > >
> > > Even as a UK mono 'Concert Hall' LP this not only has remarkably
> > > life- like sound but the performance is little short of
> > > remarkable: it is notably well-played - 'committed' - dynamic -
> > > and endlessly rewarding to listen to; sounds 'fresh' every time.
> >
> > Isn't that the Boulez recording Stravinsly was very critical about?
> >
> >
> Yes. He wrote a comparative review, published in High Fidelity
> Magazine in 1964, of three versions: the Boulez/FNO, Karajan/BPO (1st
> version), and Robert Craft/? (a Russian orchestra, IIRC). He liked
> Craft best,
> and found Boulez too 'French'. That's greatly oversimplified, of
> course.
>
> The Karajan portion of the article can be found at
> http://web.archive.org/web/20050215140253/www.mariinsky.ru/ru/forum/?m=4654.
> Here it is:
[article snipped]
Thanks very much!
> Bob Harper (who has always been partial to Colin Davis/Concertgebouw,
> which unfortunately appears to be OOP)
Are you sure about being OOP?
One simple Googling showed me:
Matthew�B.�Tepper
letters to be typed in
news:cExPm.269229$Jp1.1...@en-nntp-06.dc1.easynews.com:
[quoting Stravinsky's critique of Karajan's earlier recording]
> ... a pet savage rather than a real one.
Fair or unfair, that sums up many of Karajan's recordings for me.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Matthew�B.�Tepper
be typed in news:0001HW.C734DA00...@news.tpg.com.au:
> It's a pretty durable piece, I think. Of all the repertoire I can think
> of, the gap between the �best� and the �worst� recordings is amongst the
> smallest.
Dare I say it? The sliced-and-diced dinosaur version recorded by Stoky and
his Philadelphians for "Fantasia" has to be the worst.
Matthew�B.�Tepper
be typed in
news:52dd3dda-bafc-44a6...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:
> You'd only need one (if it's on CD..) - Pierre Boulez conducting
> Orchestre Nationale, Paris (FNRO) - from 1963.
Ad�s 13222-2 (distributed here by Harmonia Mundi; not sure if still in print)
Randy Lane
> > I don't know, but Stravinsky was very critical of HvK's first recording
> > of the Rite.
>
> > Ray Hall, Taree
>
> True, but Karajan's second recording is marvellous. It's coupled with
I actually heard the 1988 HvK before the 1964 recording.
I thought someone had pulled a fast switch on me when they played the
1964 recordings for me. Couldn't believe it was HvK.
I can understand why the composer was very critical.
Frankly, after hearing HvK 1964, many Rites that previously did little
for me became very satisfying.
O
Matthew�B.�Tepper <oy�@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Terry <bo...@clown.invalid> appears to have caused the following letters to
> be typed in news:0001HW.C734DA00...@news.tpg.com.au:
>
> > It's a pretty durable piece, I think. Of all the repertoire I can think
> > of, the gap between the �best� and the �worst� recordings is amongst the
> > smallest.
>
> Dare I say it? The sliced-and-diced dinosaur version recorded by Stoky and
> his Philadelphians for "Fantasia" has to be the worst.
I've always thought it the worst performance in the movie.
-Owen
3Bs
> I just listened to the first 5 minutes of both recordings. Abbado's has a
> completely artificial sound image, compared to which Solti's sounds like an
> impressive recording made in a great hall.
OK, let's just say that Don Koss was sabatoged.
William Sommerwerck
> Stoky and his Philadelphians for "Fantasia" has to be the worst.
But that's what got me interested in classical music.
The Pale One
> Gerard wrote:
> > tinear wrote:
> >> You'd only need one (if it's on CD..) - Pierre Boulez conducting
> >> Orchestre Nationale, Paris (FNRO) - from 1963.
>
> >> Even as a UK mono 'Concert Hall' LP this not only has remarkably life-
> >> like sound but the performance is little short of remarkable: it is
> >> notably well-played - 'committed' - dynamic - and endlessly rewarding
> >> to listen to; sounds 'fresh' every time.
>
> > Isn't that the Boulez recording Stravinsly was very critical about?
>
> Yes. He wrote a comparative review, published in High Fidelity Magazine
> in 1964, of three versions: the Boulez/FNO, Karajan/BPO (1st version),
> and Robert Craft/? (a Russian orchestra, IIRC). He liked Craft best,
> and found Boulez too 'French'. That's greatly oversimplified, of course.
>
Funny, but re-reading that review after all these years, and knowing
Stravinsky's recording and the Karajan under discussion, it appears
that Igor's problem with the HvK is that he interprets staccato
markings differently than does Igor. Perhaps Igor was a bit jealous of
what Karajan could ask for and achieve from an orchestra. I find
almost all of Igor's recordings of his music to be rudimentary plays
through. The fact is that almost every other conductor out there finds
more and gets closer to the composer's wishes than could the composer
himself when he put on his conductor uniform.
Were I forced to choose between the Stravinsky & Karajan in this
piece, Karajan's would win by a wide margin as Stravinsky's Sony
version is a boring mess. The first Rite I ever purchased was the
Markevitch stereo version (for $4.18 on a blue-label American Angel,
purchased at the local Nichols store which was like a K-Mart). The
second was the Stravinsky. I recall clearly how utterly disappointed I
was with the composer' own recording, have imprinted on the Markevich.
mark
That last post was mine. My son's name was signed in to Google.
mark
HvK's later recording is much different than his first go-round, and a
better over all performance, I agree.
It was recorded in pretty much one long take, as I understand. That
accounts for some of the flubs in the performance, such as the absence
of the tam tams near the end of the piece.
Dil
I actually like both the Karajan (1964) and the Stravinsky recordings.
I recognize Karajan's refined sound might be at odds with this opus,
but somehow the performance still works for me and holds my interest
throughout. In fact, there are not very many recordings of this piece
that I don't like, so I guess my tastes in the Rite are pretty Will
Rogers-ish. However, if I were to have only one performance it would
be the stereo Stravinsky regardless if its the composer who is
conducting. I have always found the right combination of drive,
excitement, and poetics in this reading.
Dil.
Ed Presson
I concur with many of the above recommendations, and I'll
add one more.
Monteux (RCA)
Boulez (Sony)
Chailly (Decca)
Tilson Thomas (both DG and RCA)
and
James Levine (DG)
Bob Harper
indicate to me that it is no longer 'officially' available.
Bob Harper
M forever
> Gerard wrote:
> > Bob Harper wrote:
> >> Gerard wrote:
> >>> tinear wrote:
> >>>> You'd only need one (if it's on CD..) - Pierre Boulez conducting
> >>>> Orchestre Nationale, Paris (FNRO) - from 1963.
>
> >>>> Even as a UK mono 'Concert Hall' LP this not only has remarkably
> >>>> life- like sound but the performance is little short of
> >>>> remarkable: it is notably well-played - 'committed' - dynamic -
> >>>> and endlessly rewarding to listen to; sounds 'fresh' every time.
> >>> Isn't that the Boulez recording Stravinsly was very critical about?
>
> >> Yes. He wrote a comparative review, published in High Fidelity
> >> Magazine in 1964, of three versions: the Boulez/FNO, Karajan/BPO (1st
> >> version), and Robert Craft/? (a Russian orchestra, IIRC). He liked
> >> Craft best,
> >> and found Boulez too 'French'. That's greatly oversimplified, of
> >> course.
>
> >> The Karajan portion of the article can be found at
> >> Here it is:
>
> > [article snipped]
>
> > Thanks very much!
>
> >> Bob Harper (who has always been partial to Colin Davis/Concertgebouw,
> >> which unfortunately appears to be OOP)
>
> > Are you sure about being OOP?
> > One simple Googling showed me:
>
> >http://www.amazon.com/Stravinsky-Ballets-Igor/dp/B00005IB5L
>
> The prices, and the fact that it's only available from 'sellers'
> indicate to me that it is no longer 'officially' available.
>
> Bob Harper
It's on Philips - isn't everything from Philips OOP now since the
label as such doesn't exist anymore? If they decide to reissue any
Philips recordings, they would appear on DG or Decca now.
BTW, the Davis recording is among my favorites, too. It is one of the
"earthiest" and most colorful versions. There are many competently
played and conducted versions of this piece and most of them "work"
quite well since a lot of the music kind of plays itself, but there
are not that many versions which really explore the textures and
colors and layers of rhythm of the score.
Thanks for posting the Karajan review by Stravinsky. I wanted to re-
read that but couldn't find it anymore. I would like to read the
reviews of the other two recordings, too.
M forever
Why Levine? I don't find anything particularly interesting in this
fairly routine performance, and actually a number of details which
aren't very good at all, like the bangy, plasticky timpani and the
horribly out of tune horns and wagner tubes in "Cortège du sage". I
don't mean to nitpick, one can find little errors and blemishes in
basically any recording, but this is really quite glaring, and since
it is a studio recording, I wonder why they didn't retake that. The
whole production has a rushed, not very refined quality to it anyway
(including some bad, audible splicing, for instance, in "Jeux des
cités rivales").
Heck51
> Dare I say it? The sliced-and-diced dinosaur version recorded by Stoky and
> his Philadelphians for "Fantasia" has to be the worst.>>
but his first recording of it - with Philadelphia, from '29-'30 is a
true classic..
number_six
wrote:
> > Dare I say it? The sliced-and-diced dinosaur version recorded by
> > Stoky and his Philadelphians for "Fantasia" has to be the worst.
>
> But that's what got me interested in classical music.
Later they had some guy, I want to say Irwin Kostal, re-record it.
graham
"Gerard" <ghen_nospam_driksen�@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:33f97$4b0e9d44$5ed13b3d$69...@cache3.tilbu1.nb.home.nl...
JAC
> > > Stoky and his Philadelphians for "Fantasia" has to be the worst.
> Later they had some guy, I want to say Irwin Kostal, re-record it.
It was indeed Irv Kostal. But that version lasted for only one round
of theatrical reissues. The original soundtrack has been heard since
then.
JAC
Sol L. Siegel
news:4uSdnSl7drVhCJPW...@giganews.com:
> The article is in the Februry 1965 Hi fi Stereo Review and is a
> detailed critique by Stravinsky of three Rite recordings...
> "...compare this to America where it has become a conductors showpiece
> for the one-rehearsal concerts in the Hollywood Bowl" (!!!)
Or perhaps a showpiece for the tympanist, without whom the strings can't
stay in sync. d;>)
--
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
Bob Harper
I suspect that's right. I'd nominate it for early reissue in the
'Originals' series.
>
> BTW, the Davis recording is among my favorites, too. It is one of the
> "earthiest" and most colorful versions. There are many competently
> played and conducted versions of this piece and most of them "work"
> quite well since a lot of the music kind of plays itself, but there
> are not that many versions which really explore the textures and
> colors and layers of rhythm of the score.
Agreed, and I also find the sound outstanding. The impact of the end of
the work is tremendous.
>
> Thanks for posting the Karajan review by Stravinsky. I wanted to re-
> read that but couldn't find it anymore. I would like to read the
> reviews of the other two recordings, too.
As would I. I'm going to keep looking, but if anyone could scan the
magazine article and post it as a PDF, that would be wonderful.
Bob Harper
Sol L. Siegel
news:8014bf70-9cd9-4eea...@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:
> My list:
>
> - Stravinsky's own reference recording on Sony:
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rite-Spring-Firebird-Igor-
Stravinsky/dp/B00006AW4T/
>ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1259230685&sr=1-6
>
> - Ancerl on Supraphon (very Russian and typical sound of the Czech
> Philh. O.):
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Karel-Ancerl-Gold-Vol-5-
Stravinsky/dp/B00007852G/
>ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1259230868&sr=1-1
>
> - E�tv�s (objective, Junge Deutsche Philharmonie):
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stravinsky-Mavra-Rite-Spring-
Igor/dp/B000ENC6OQ/
>ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1259231042&sr=1-1
>
> - Markevitch on Testament:
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stravinsky-Sacre-Du-Printemps-
Igor/dp/B000003XJH/
>ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1259231201&sr=1-2
>
> - Gergiev on Philips: (extreme, extrovert and very spectacular):
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stravinsky-Rite-Spring-Valery-
Gergiev/dp/B00005NIF6/
ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1259231321&sr=1-2
>
> - Simonov on Regis (low price and in a way very accessible for the
> listener):
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rite-Spring-Igor-Stravinsky/dp/B000OCZ87Y/
> ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1259231427&sr=1-2
>
You can shorten Amazon URLS considerably by leaving out everything after
the number-slash - that is, everything starting with "ref=".
Dontait...@aol.com
> On Nov 26, 11:19�am, "Matthew�B.�Tepper" <oy�@earthlink.net> wrote:>
>
> > Dare I say it? �The sliced-and-diced dinosaur version recorded by Stoky and
> > his Philadelphians for "Fantasia" has to be the worst.>>
>
> but his first recording of it - with Philadelphia, from '29-'30 is a
> true classic..
It is indeed, despite the fact that the orchestra has some of the
audible technical problems that can probably be expected for musicians
of the time working with such relatively new and complex music. Even
Stoki's Philadelphia Orchestra, used to the advanced things he
conducted with them all the time. Including lots of things done only
in special reading rehearsals but not in concerts.
Stokowski very much wanted to re-record Sacre in stereo and there
were plans for him to do it for Decca in London during the 1960s, but
they didn't work out. Too bad for many reasons. I remember watching a
television interview of him filmed on a UK-bound ocean liner around
1966 in which he said he was going to record Sacre in London.
Don Tait
Sol L. Siegel
> Favorites in very good stereo:
>
> - Chailly (also with the Cleveland Orchestra) on Decca
> - Tilson Thomas on RCA
> - Gergiev on Philips
> - Nagano on Virgin
Nagano is a surprise choice. I have it in a 2-disc fat jewel box with
Persephone, a fine performance of a work I am becoming increasinly
convinced is one of the most beautiful scores of the 20th century.
Rehearing it now, long after a cursory first audition, I find it a tad
deliberate, but powerful and cleanly articulated, and well-recorded into
the bargain. Not a first choice, but good to have.
Muti remains my first choice.
Kip Williams
> Terry wrote:
>> I think it's good to have a piano version in stock as well. The piece
>> sounds even more barbaric as piano four hands, and the recording I
>> really prefer is that by Fazil Say, on Teldec. (All four hands are
>> his, by the way.)
> Is Fazil Say one of those Indonesian Gods/Goddesses with 8 or 10
> -perhaps more--arms with a hand on each one?
You seem to be confusing the Indian representation of multiple aspects
in one artwork with a belief that their gods have extra limbs.
(Say, of course, multitracks. In concert, he plays along with his own
performance on a computer-operated player piano.)
Kip W
Kip Williams
> Dare I say it? The sliced-and-diced dinosaur version recorded by Stoky and
> his Philadelphians for "Fantasia" has to be the worst.
Yeah, but it has the best dinosaurs.
Kip W
Thornhill
> Lots of great ones:
>
> Muti/Philly worth it even though sound isn;t that great, but the
> performance is outstanding.
FYI: The Brilliant Classics version seems to have fixed a lot of the
problems. The brightness has been severely toned down, and most of the
overload distortions are gone.
Gerard
Isn't he still busy to make a few recordings by Ansermet unlistenable?
Does anyone know what was Stravinksy's criticism of Ansermet's recording(s)?
wagnerfan
news:ZKAPm.271216$Jp1.2...@en-nntp-06.dc1.easynews.com...
I tried but I'm afraid they are bound copies and I can't get the portion of
the article near the center. Wagner fan
M forever
> I tried but I'm afraid they are bound copies and I can't get the portion of
> the article near the center. Wagner fan
Would you mind typing the article or the portions that can't be
spelled? I, and I am sure others here as well, would be very grateful
for that.
wagnerfan
fan
"M forever" <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:74b7851c-5243-4fbd...@d21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
Ed Presson
On Nov 26, 12:29 pm, "Ed Presson" <pe...@comcast.net> wrote:
> I concur with many of the above recommendations, and I'll
> add one more.
>
> Monteux (RCA)
> Boulez (Sony)
> Chailly (Decca)
> Tilson Thomas (both DG and RCA)
>
> and
> James Levine (DG)
Why Levine? I don't find anything particularly interesting in this
fairly routine performance, and actually a number of details which
aren't very good at all, like the bangy, plasticky timpani and the
horribly out of tune horns and wagner tubes in "Cort�ge du sage". I
don't mean to nitpick, one can find little errors and blemishes in
basically any recording, but this is really quite glaring, and since
it is a studio recording, I wonder why they didn't retake that. The
whole production has a rushed, not very refined quality to it anyway
(including some bad, audible splicing, for instance, in "Jeux des
cit�s rivales").
____________
For me, the performance still works as an very objective "in your
face" reading. I don't remember the blemishes being glaring as
they did to you. I admit that I haven't heard the CD for a while, so I'll
revisit
it to see if I still feel the same. I suspect that, if a performance
provides something I like, I can forgive a lot. It's one of the very
few recordings (especially by DG) that has the powerful bass
that this work should have. Perhaps it's merely
a guilty pleasure for me.
I also went to listen to samples of the Davis recordings, and---to my
great surprise---I liked them. I had avoided them based on my
memory of earlier Davis/Stravinsky recordings. If these
recordings are re-issued, I will seek them out. Thanks to all
for pointing them out.
Ed Presson
O
<k...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
But no virgins.
-Owen
graham
"Gerard" <ghen_nospam_driksen�@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:33f97$4b0e9d44$5ed13b3d$69...@cache3.tilbu1.nb.home.nl...
> 3Bs wrote:
>
>> Has nobody mentioned Muti?
>
> Not yet.
>
>> A top choice for a violent and powerful
>> performance.
>
> Since the mentioning-every-good-recording is a good tradition:
>
> Colin Davis with the Concertgeouw Orchestra (Philips - with splendid
> recordings
> of Petruchka and The Firebird).
>
> What was available once as a download on his site:
> Currentzis, IIRC with his Ensemble Aeterna, recorded in Novosibirsk.
>
>>
>> Performances that haven't done much for me include Suitner, Karajan,
>> Fruhbeck, and Solti, the latter a fine performance sabatoged by
>> Decca's engineers.
>
> Abbado's recording is the sabotaged one. But by different engineers.
>
> I just listened to the first 5 minutes of both recordings. Abbado's has a
> completely artificial sound image,
Is that with the LSO - a DGG recording?
Allen
11, but I was already hooked on classical music. It gave me an
opportunity to hear somethings that I didn't know about or hadn't heard.
I had been very interested in hearing the Rite and I was deeply
impressed by it, despite the hacked up score and the dinos etc that had
absolutely nothing to do with the music.
Allen
Heck51
> Stokowski very much wanted to re-record Sacre in stereo and there
> were plans for him to do it for Decca in London during the 1960s, but
> they didn't work out. >>
It's too bad Reiner never got to record it in Chicago - he had planned
to, but IIRC, RCA postponed it, then Reiner became ill, and the
project never came to fruition. too bad...
Gerard
It is.
herman
>
> Thanks for posting the Karajan review by Stravinsky. I wanted to re-
> read that but couldn't find it anymore. I would like to read the
> reviews of the other two recordings, too.
Obviously the funny thing of the idea of "Stravinsky" reviewing
Karajan, Boulez and Craft, is that Craft is co-authoring the review,
as one can tell by a phrase at the end of the Karajan review.
"Concretion and reification"? I don't think so. That's Craft's
language, not Stravinsky's.
CharlesSmith
>
> When the Rite of Spring was done on Radio 3's Building a Library slot
> not too long ago, the Eotvos recording was picked. I've never heard it
> (nor, at the time, heard of it), but the reviewer, Rob Cowan, is to be
> trusted.
>
I've tried to pull out this review from the BBC site, but found it too
difficult, so will have to rely on my memory of hearing it at the time
(March 2008). I believe Cowan was quite dismissive of most of the
available recordings. The sorts of criticisms levelled by Stravinsky
at HvK - inaccuracies, wrong tempi, poor balance, etc - could just as
easily be aimed at most of the others, all demonstrated in the review.
He concluded that if you want to hear what Stravinsky wrote, well
played, then Eotvos and the Junge Deutsche Philharmonie were your best
option.
Charles
CharlesSmith
> On 26 Nov, 22:38, CharlesSmith <sigma.onl...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> > I've tried to pull out this review from the BBC site, but found it too
> > difficult
>
>
> Lookie!
>
> "I don't ever waver in my (fairly recently heard) admiration for
> Boulez's Paris National Orchestra 'Concert Hall' recording (Spring
> 1963) - for its Visceral Precision & Clarity of Vision.
>
> Most recorded performances otherwise leave me thinking that the work
> is overblown/slightly boring...though the RCA Chicago/Ozawa I regret
> not having heard - as I like very much his slightly later EMI Janacek/
> Lutoslawski LP - played in a similar vein to the CDR extract".
>
> Posted by 'Not Rob Cowan' !
Exactly, I can find the message board, but not the recording of the
review. However now you've pointed to the board I've realised there is
a comment there from Rob Cowan himself (after reading the reactions to
his review) which I quote:
"What I tried to do yesterday was provide for all tastes, either with
the snorting primitivism of Gergiev, the intelligence and energy of
Rattle, or the fire of Markevitch. The great thing about Eötvös is the
way he balances the score, terraces climaxes, lets dissonances ‘tell’
without adding a tiresome scream of his own. In The Rite, the quiet
music is as important as the pounding climaxes, and he judges things
so superbly. OK it’s not a ‘great’ orchestra (though for most of the
time they played wonderfully well) and it doesn’t sock it to you in
quite the way that, say, Dorati does … but it ‘gets’ everything; you
come away humbled, moved, enlightened, inspired – rather than just
exhausted and ‘wowed’. But I meant what I said – no recorded Rite
should be for life. It’s far too rich and involved for that. Bws. Rob"
BTW there are samples (but probably not very revealing) at:
http://tinyurl.com/ygoc2qb
Charles
Kip Williams
> I tried but I'm afraid they are bound copies and I can't get the portion
> of the article near the center. Wagner fan
Digital photos often work in such a situation where it's more important
that the result be readable than beautiful.
Kip W
Kip Williams
> Kip Williams wrote:
>> Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>>
>>> Dare I say it? The sliced-and-diced dinosaur version recorded by
>>> Stoky and
>>> his Philadelphians for "Fantasia" has to be the worst.
>>
>> Yeah, but it has the best dinosaurs.
>>
Those hippos ruled.
Kip W
M forever
Hmmm...could be...But what does that mean?
"I do not mean to imply that he is out of his depths, however, but
rather that he is in my shallows - or call them simple concretions and
reifications."
wagnerfan
news:tyEPm.37035$ky1...@newsfe14.iad...
Hmmm I'll try that Wagner fan
Lawrence Chalmers
Danses Concertantes, Concerto in D, Dumbarton Oaks, is one I listen to
very often...I keep putting off getting the Markevitch recording, so
maybe if its not too late, its time. I'd forgotten the Mehta/NY Phil
recording. I have it with Mitropoulos R&J on Sony. I remember being
fairly impressed. I'll have to see if I can find the Muti on Brilliant
Classics as well.
M forever
...whose orchestra isn't exactly a "great" orchestra either, although
they play respectably well. Pretty odd remark from the reviewer,
especially because he praises the recording so much and he also says
of the orchestral contribution "for most of the time they played
wonderfully well". Apparently, like many of the people who like
Barshai's recording of Mahler 5 with the same orchestra, he feels a
little uneasy about recommending a recording made by a youth orchestra
- which the Junge Deutsche Philharmonie actually isn't, at least not
in the sense the term is most often used (for orchestras with young
people, say under 22 or so). It is made up out of students and young
professionals between the ages of 18 and 28, with probably most of the
members in their mid-20s, in the final stages of their studies and
already with one foot in the professional world (musicians in Germany
don't graduate and then look for jobs, they grow into playing in
orchestras by substituting in concert and opera orchestras while they
are still students). So you have a large pool of players who are
highly trained and already have a lot of professional experience, and
they get together for several special projects several times a year
where they have more time to rehearse than orchestras normally do, and
it's not a big surprise they perform on such a high level.
> but it ‘gets’ everything; you
> come away humbled, moved, enlightened, inspired – rather than just
> exhausted and ‘wowed’. But I meant what I said – no recorded Rite
> should be for life. It’s far too rich and involved for that. Bws. Rob"
>
> BTW there are samples (but probably not very revealing) at:http://tinyurl.com/ygoc2qb
Not very much, no, but one thing that becomes clear even from
listening to the heavily compressed samples is that Eötvös apparently
does not go for the superficially exiting slashboombang effects but
for clarity and transparency and balance. Even in the low quality
samples, one can what the woodwind are doing in loud tuttis better
than on a lot of recordings, all the brrrrrrrrrrrrrr and huuuuuui and
yapyap. That might be an interesting recording to get.
That reminds me, another recording which also brings out a lot more of
the inner color and detail of the score but which is nonetheless also
quite "exciting" and brilliantly extrovert, plus recorded in very nice
sound, is Dutoit's Montréal recording which I don't think anyone else
has mentioned yet.
Another favorite of mine is Boulez' second Cleveland recording (on
DG). Apparently, many prefer his earlier recording on CBS/Sony.
Then there is another recording which is at least very interesting,
which is the one Monteux made in the 50s with the Conservatoire
orchestra for Decca (in stereo). It is not the most "exciting"
performance either, and the orchestra is really struggling audibly
with the music, there is lots of out of tune and very strained
playing, but I think this recording gives you a fairly good idea what
the music originally sounded like - and by that, I don't mean the
technical problems which orchestras in the early part of the century
undoubtedly had with the score. I mean the colors and playing style
which is still very traditionally French. So I think one can imagine
the music originally sounded more or less like that. And even though
there these technical problems, it is definitely a very colorful
version.
JG
@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, ms1...@gmail.com says...
> On Nov 26, 6:07 pm, CharlesSmith <sigma.onl...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > On 26 Nov, 22:55, "FIVE STARS *****" <tin...@ymail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > On 26 Nov, 22:38, CharlesSmith <sigma.onl...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > I've tried to pull out this review from the BBC site, but found it too
> > > > difficult
> >
> > > BBC March 2008 'CD Review' MB thread.http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio3/F6643901?thread=5230991&skip=40&sho...
> >
> > > Lookie!
> >
> > > "I don't ever waver in my (fairly recently heard) admiration for
> > > Boulez's Paris National Orchestra 'Concert Hall' recording (Spring
> > > 1963) - for its Visceral Precision & Clarity of Vision.
> >
> > > Most recorded performances otherwise leave me thinking that the work
> > > is overblown/slightly boring...though the RCA Chicago/Ozawa I regret
> > > not having heard - as I like very much his slightly later EMI Janacek/
> > > Lutoslawski LP - played in a similar vein to the CDR extract".
> >
> > > Posted by 'Not Rob Cowan' !
> >
> > Exactly, I can find the message board, but not the recording of the
> > review. However now you've pointed to the board I've realised there is
> > a comment there from Rob Cowan himself (after reading the reactions to
> > his review) which I quote:
> > "What I tried to do yesterday was provide for all tastes, either with
> > the snorting primitivism of Gergiev, the intelligence and energy of
> > Rattle, or the fire of Markevitch. The great thing about Eötvös is the
> > without adding a tiresome scream of his own. In The Rite, the quiet
> > music is as important as the pounding climaxes, and he judges things
> > time they played wonderfully well) and it doesn?t sock it to you in
> > quite the way that, say, Dorati does ?
>
> ...whose orchestra isn't exactly a "great" orchestra either, although
> they play respectably well. Pretty odd remark from the reviewer,
> especially because he praises the recording so much and he also says
> of the orchestral contribution "for most of the time they played
> wonderfully well". Apparently, like many of the people who like
> Barshai's recording of Mahler 5 with the same orchestra, he feels a
> little uneasy about recommending a recording made by a youth orchestra
> - which the Junge Deutsche Philharmonie actually isn't, at least not
> in the sense the term is most often used (for orchestras with young
> people, say under 22 or so). It is made up out of students and young
> professionals between the ages of 18 and 28, with probably most of the
Thank you for that informative post.
Gerard
> I'll have to see if I can find the
> Muti on Brilliant Classics as well.
It is available on EMI as well.
http://www.emiclassics.com/releasedetails.php?rid=47198
and
http://www.emiclassics.com/releasedetails.php?rid=28703
or
http://www.emiclassics.com/releasedetails.php?rid=28900
or
http://www.emiclassics.com/releasedetails.php?rid=28999
herman
>
> > Obviously the funny thing of the idea of "Stravinsky" reviewing
> > Karajan, Boulez and Craft, is that Craft is co-authoring the review,
> > as one can tell by a phrase at the end of the Karajan review.
> > "Concretion and reification"? I don't think so. That's Craft's
> > language, not Stravinsky's.
>
> Hmmm...could be...But what does that mean?
>
It means that Craft is basically reviewing his own recording - and,
surprisingly he comes out better than Boulez! Whoda thunk it?
Heck51
> > "James Levine (DG)"
>
> Why Levine? I don't find anything particularly interesting in this
> fairly routine performance,>>
I heard Levine play "Le Sacre" a couple of years back with the BSO.
very excellent, an exciting, well-executed performance. far better
than several Ozawa/BSO performances I heard.
I also heard Tilson Thomas conduct it with Pittsburgh...not so
impressive - far too prissy, fussy, lacking in visceral impact for my
tastes.
wagnerfan
news:fdd6a1f7-19d0-4820...@f16g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Well if thats true, then Craft is at times extremely critical of his own
work - e.g. "unpropitious beginning", "lethargic", "uncertain dynamics- tuba
drags", "tubas soggy". "unwarrented loss of speed I do not like (!)" Do you
really think he wrote this about his own recording??? Wagner fan
Matthew�B.�Tepper
be typed in news:0001HW.C735E5C2...@news.tpg.com.au:
> On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 03:19:32 +1100, Matthew�B.�Tepper wrote
> (in article <Xns9CCF54BB3A0...@216.168.3.30>):
>
>> Bob Harper <bob.h...@comcast.net> appears to have caused the
>> following letters to be typed in
>> news:cExPm.269229$Jp1.1...@en-nntp-06.dc1.easynews.com:
>>
>> [quoting Stravinsky's critique of Karajan's earlier recording]
>>
>>> ... a pet savage rather than a real one.
>>
>> Fair or unfair, that sums up many of Karajan's recordings for me.
>
> This is all most unsettling... There have now been at least 70
> contributions to this topic, and so far nobody has called anyone an
> arsehole or worse. What's the matter with this newsgroup? Massive
> deterioration seems to have set in. (Either that, or I've gained some
> success with my recent activity with filtration.) Congratulations to
> all.
How DARE you! ;--)
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Matthew�B.�Tepper
letters to be typed in news:rKmdnWQwubkRSJLW...@giganews.com:
I remember reading somewhere a critique by Craft of his own set of Webern
music for Columbia back in the mono LP years. He points out every error of
performance or miscue. I think, however, that this was his way of griping
about the minimum rehearsal and recording time the label allotted to him for
this project.
Matthew�B.�Tepper
to be typed in news:261120091141044441%ow...@denofinequityx.com:
> In article <Xns9CCF54BB8CB...@216.168.3.30>,
> Matthew�B.�Tepper <oy�@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Terry <bo...@clown.invalid> appears to have caused the following letters
>> to be typed in news:0001HW.C734DA00...@news.tpg.com.au:
>>
>> > It's a pretty durable piece, I think. Of all the repertoire I can
>> > think of, the gap between the �best� and the �worst� recordings is
>> > amongst the smallest.
>>
>> Dare I say it? The sliced-and-diced dinosaur version recorded by Stoky
>> and his Philadelphians for "Fantasia" has to be the worst.
>
> I've always thought it the worst performance in the movie.
That too, I agree.
Matthew�B.�Tepper
letters to be typed in news:dcba5c77-2fb8-4810-bf5a-c6404607a4f5
@u25g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
> On Nov 26, 8:48�am, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> > Dare I say it? �The sliced-and-diced dinosaur version recorded by
>> > Stoky and his Philadelphians for "Fantasia" has to be the worst.
>>
>> But that's what got me interested in classical music.
>
> Later they had some guy, I want to say Irwin Kostal, re-record it.
If you were to say Irwin Kostal, you would be correct.
William Sommerwerck
>>> Stoky and his Philadelphians for "Fantasia" has to be the worst.
>> I've always thought it the worst performance in the movie.
> That too, I agree.
Ignoring the Bach (which is ur-Stoky), the other performances show Stokowski
at his peak. I've never heard as good a "Sorcerer's Apprentice" or "Night on
Bald Mountain". The Romantic pieces are the very model of how Romantic music
should be conducted.
If you don't have the CDs, get them. The special edition DVD includes music
that Stokowski recorded but wasn't animated. The "Swine of Tularemia" is
unbelievable.
Frank Berger
> On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 03:19:32 +1100, Matthew B. Tepper wrote
> (in article <Xns9CCF54BB3A0...@216.168.3.30>):
>
>> following letters to be typed in
>>
>> [quoting Stravinsky's critique of Karajan's earlier recording]
>>
>>> ... a pet savage rather than a real one.
>>
>> Fair or unfair, that sums up many of Karajan's recordings for me.
>>
>>
>
> This is all most unsettling... There have now been at least 70
> contributions to this topic, and so far nobody has called anyone an
> arsehole or worse.
Wait.
Al Eisner
> I think it's good to have a piano version in stock as well. The piece sounds
> even more barbaric as piano four hands, and the recording I really prefer is
> that by Fazil Say, on Teldec. (All four hands are his, by the way.)
That latter would explain some of what he does in the Mozart sonatas!
Seriously, I'd be suspicious of that recording. One of the joys of
duo-piano performance is the ability of the performers to interact with
each other (not to mention avoid each others hands) in real-time. Would
that really be possible if one performer plays with a recording
of the other. evem if it's the same person?
--
Al Eisner
Sol L. Siegel
$5ed13b3d$76...@cache4.tilbu1.nb.home.nl:
The Double Forte set (which I own) supposedly has the best transfer.
It's OOP but Berkshire has it for $7.98.
The Brilliant set (cheap; listed in the UK but not in the US) is the
only set to date to include Muti's Petrouchka and Firebird Suite as with
the Rite in the same album, but I don't know about those transfers.
--
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
Sol L. Siegel
news:0001HW.C735E5C2...@news.tpg.com.au:
> This is all most unsettling... There have now been at least 70
> contributions to this topic, and so far nobody has called anyone an
> arsehole or worse. What's the matter with this newsgroup? Massive
> deterioration seems to have set in. (Either that, or I've gained some
> success with my recent activity with filtration.) Congratulations to
> all.
>
Shhhh.......
M forever
I got that. What I meant was, what does "concretion and reification"
mean?
M forever
We don't really know because we haven't been able to read the review
yet!
;-)
Bob Harper
This is perhaps an oversimplification, but I think he means that the
music of 'Le Sacre' is 'just' music. The key, I think, is the sentence
that follows: "There are simply no regions for soul-searching in The
Rite of Spring."
But of course this is Stravinsky in 1964; whether the Stravinsky of 1913
thought that way I don't know.
Bob Harper
herman
My suspicion is that the "no regions for soul-searching" is from the
horse's mouth, whereas the obfuscating explanation "concretion and
reification" is Craft.
Bob Harper
And I think you may be exactly right :)
Bob Harper
William Sommerwerck
>> is from the horse's mouth, whereas the obfuscating
>> explanation "concretion and reification" is Craft.
> And I think you may be exactly right. :)
Regardless, I've never considered Igor to be the brightest bulb on the tree.
He called Disney's visualization of the "Rite" as "an unprotesting
imbecility". It might be imbecile (though I don't agree), but it was created
by human beings, who can be praised or damned for it.
I didn't realize until recently what a truly great conductor Robert Craft
is. I'm in the process of collecting his recordings.
herman
wrote:
>
> I didn't realize until recently what a truly great conductor Robert Craft
> is. I'm in the process of collecting his recordings.
Well, in my view he is not. I have a couple of his Naxos / Koch
recordings, in I think they are lifeless.
Gerard
What else did he record (apart from Stravinsky's works), and which are the real
gems?