Pronunciation test!

[td]

If you can pronounce correctly every word in this poem, you will be
speaking English better than 90% of the native English speakers in the
world. After trying the verses, a Frenchman said he’d prefer six
months of hard labour to reading six lines aloud.

Dearest creature in creation,
Study English pronunciation.
I will teach you in my verse
Sounds like corpse, corps, horse, and worse.
I will keep you, Suzy, busy,
Make your head with heat grow dizzy.
Tear in eye, your dress will tear.
So shall I! Oh hear my prayer.
Just compare heart, beard, and heard,
Dies and diet, lord and word,
Sword and sward, retain and Britain.
(Mind the latter, how it’s written.)
Now I surely will not plague you
With such words as plaque and ague.
But be careful how you speak:
Say break and steak, but bleak and streak;
Cloven, oven, how and low,
Script, receipt, show, poem, and toe.
Hear me say, devoid of trickery,
Daughter, laughter, and Terpsichore,
Typhoid, measles, topsails, aisles,
Exiles, similes, and reviles;
Scholar, vicar, and cigar,
Solar, mica, war and far;
One, anemone, Balmoral,
Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel;
Gertrude, German, wind and mind,
Scene, Melpomene, mankind.
Billet does not rhyme with ballet,
Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet.
Blood and flood are not like food,
Nor is mould like should and would.
Viscous, viscount, load and broad,
Toward, to forward, to reward.
And your pronunciation’s OK
When you correctly say croquet,
Rounded, wounded, grieve and sieve,
Friend and fiend, alive and live.
Ivy, privy, famous; clamour
And enamour rhyme with hammer.
River, rival, tomb, bomb, comb,
Doll and roll and some and home.
Stranger does not rhyme with anger,
Neither does devour with clangour.
Souls but foul, haunt but aunt,
Font, front, wont, want, grand, and grant,
Shoes, goes, does. Now first say finger,
And then singer, ginger, linger,
Real, zeal, mauve, gauze, gouge and gauge,
Marriage, foliage, mirage, and age.
Query does not rhyme with very,
Nor does fury sound like bury.
Dost, lost, post and doth, cloth, loth.
Job, nob, bosom, transom, oath.
Though the differences seem little,
We say actual but victual.
Refer does not rhyme with deafer.
Foeffer does, and zephyr, heifer.
Mint, pint, senate and sedate;
Dull, bull, and George ate late.
Scenic, Arabic, Pacific,
Science, conscience, scientific.
Liberty, library, heave and heaven,
Rachel, ache, moustache, eleven.
We say hallowed, but allowed,
People, leopard, towed, but vowed.
Mark the differences, moreover,
Between mover, cover, clover;
Leeches, breeches, wise, precise,
Chalice, but police and lice;
Camel, constable, unstable,
Principle, disciple, label.
Petal, panel, and canal,
Wait, surprise, plait, promise, pal.
Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, chair,
Senator, spectator, mayor.
Tour, but our and succour, four.
Gas, alas, and Arkansas.
Sea, idea, Korea, area,
Psalm, Maria, but malaria.
Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean.
Doctrine, turpentine, marine.
Compare alien with Italian,
Dandelion and battalion.
Sally with ally, yea, ye,
Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, and key.
Say aver, but ever, fever,
Neither, leisure, skein, deceiver.
Heron, granary, canary.
Crevice and device and aerie.
Face, but preface, not efface.
Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass.
Large, but target, gin, give, verging,
Ought, out, joust and scour, scourging.
Ear, but earn and wear and tear
Do not rhyme with here but ere.
Seven is right, but so is even,
Hyphen, roughen, nephew Stephen,
Monkey, donkey, Turk and jerk,
Ask, grasp, wasp, and cork and work.
Pronunciation (think of Psyche!)
Is a paling stout and spikey?
Won’t it make you lose your wits,
Writing groats and saying grits?
It’s a dark abyss or tunnel:
Strewn with stones, stowed, solace, gunwale,
Islington and Isle of Wight,
Housewife, verdict and indict.
Finally, which rhymes with enough,
Though, through, plough, or dough, or cough?
Hiccough has the sound of cup.
My advice is to give up!!!

[Dontait...@aol.com]

No problem. Honestly. Anyone who reads can get and knows it. It's
easy. To move on, a WFMT announcer auditionee would have to take this
and get it 94% correct, plus a very long script involving scores of
song, aria, and performer names in numerous languages, to show
sufficient proficiency to even be considered for the job. The latter
musical audition script was standard for years (not the faux-Mike
Nichols script that's been published all over the place).

Don Tait

[M forever]

On Dec 11, 4:30 pm, "Dontaitchic...@aol.com" <Dontaitchic...@aol.com>
wrote:

Really? Most of the non-English names I hear on American radio
stations, including NPR, are hilariously mispronounced. Probably
because the people who score the test don't know how to pronounce them
either. Over at the BBC, they are doing much better.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

"Dontait...@aol.com" <Dontait...@aol.com> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in news:227e2c0a-d823-454f-afdb-599d7f5c62f6
@c18g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:

> No problem. Honestly. Anyone who reads can get and knows it. It's
> easy. To move on, a WFMT announcer auditionee would have to take this
> and get it 94% correct, plus a very long script involving scores of
> song, aria, and performer names in numerous languages, to show
> sufficient proficiency to even be considered for the job. The latter
> musical audition script was standard for years (not the faux-Mike
> Nichols script that's been published all over the place).
>
> Don Tait

Thank you for quoting this, Don. I wonder if this sort of thing could be
used the same way the French use what they call a "dictée," i.e., read it out
loud so that people can transcribe it and see how accurately they can do so.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers

[Dontait...@aol.com]

On Dec 11, 4:38 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "Dontaitchic...@aol.com" <Dontaitchic...@aol.com> appears to have caused the

> following letters to be typed in news:227e2c0a-d823-454f-afdb-599d7f5c62f6
> @c18g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:
>
> >   No problem. Honestly. Anyone who reads can get and knows it. It's
> > easy. To move on, a WFMT announcer auditionee would have to take this
> > and get it 94% correct, plus a very long script involving scores of
> > song, aria, and performer names in numerous languages, to show
> > sufficient proficiency to even be considered for the job. The latter
> > musical audition script was standard for years (not the faux-Mike
> > Nichols script that's been published all over the place).
>
> >   Don Tait
>
> Thank you for quoting this, Don.  I wonder if this sort of thing could be
> used the same way the French use what they call a "dictée," i.e., read it out
> loud so that people can transcribe it and see how accurately they can do so.

Thank YOU, Matthew.

If people can't do the posted test well, so be it. Sadly. I can only
add to what I wrote: *everyone* who knows English decently should be
able to pass this test easily.

Don Tait

[Gerard]

Of course - that's answering the question by the question.
But then the question is: do many native English speakers know English decently?

[Dufus]

On Dec 11, 4:00 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 11, 4:30 pm, "Dontaitchic...@aol.com" <Dontaitchic...@aol.com>

>. To move on, a WFMT announcer auditionee would have to take this
> > and get it 94% correct, plus a very long script involving scores of
> > song, aria, and performer names in numerous languages
>
> Really? Most of the non-English names I hear on American radio
> stations, including NPR, are hilariously mispronounced.

Not a problem in my experience. And here is a brief snippet , only one
I could find, starting at about :45 in , and only approximating
Chicago's golden-voiced Jay Andres, whom Don knew well, Mr. Andres
never missing a name. In the 60's, I'd listen to Andres' American
Airlines sponsored " Music Until Dawn " ( ? Don ? ) , usually started
listening at about Midnight- 1 am when the daytime static /
interference finally subsided and I could get WBBM-AM from Chicago,
about 225 miles away. Still remember my first hearing of the Saint-
Saens 4th Piano Concerto then, at a time I only knew S-S had written a
3rd Violin Concerto , based on my parents' Francescatti / Ansermet /
OSR Columbia lp :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6IvD65mXYs

Dufus

[William Sommerwerck]

>> No problem. Honestly. Anyone who reads can get and knows it. It's
>> easy. To move on, a WFMT announcer auditionee would have to take
>> this and get it 94% correct, plus a very long script involving scores of

>> song, aria, and performer names in numerous languages.

> Really? Most of the non-English names I hear on American radio
> stations, including NPR, are hilariously mispronounced. Probably
> because the people who score the test don't know how to pronounce
> them either. Over at the BBC, they are doing much better.

Yeah. They just stick Rs in words where they don't belong.

[td]

On Dec 11, 6:16 pm, "Gerard" <ghendriksen-nosp...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I doubt the boasting of many here that they could get it right. Even
94%.

My experience of "Marvin Mellowbells" is that, with all due respect,
their ability to pronounce difficult words and foreign expressions is
inversely proportional to their mental acuity.

If you want to have an itelligent conversaion, don't try one with Don
Pardo.

Genius rarely resides in the throat. Or the tongue.

TD

[td]

On Dec 11, 6:16 pm, "Gerard" <ghendriksen-nosp...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Incidentally, Gerard, this poem was written by a Dutchman, who clearly
knew just how silly English pronunciation is.

TD

[Dufus]

On Dec 11, 5:40 pm, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:

> My experience of "Marvin Mellowbells" is that, with all due respect,
> their ability to pronounce difficult words and foreign expressions is
> inversely proportional to their mental acuity.
>

Do you mean to say you, Gerard, and M Forever are not very bright ?

Dufus

[M forever]

On Dec 11, 6:21 pm, Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 11, 4:00 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 11, 4:30 pm, "Dontaitchic...@aol.com" <Dontaitchic...@aol.com>
> >. To move on, a WFMT announcer auditionee would have to take this
> > > and get it 94% correct, plus a very long script involving scores of
> > > song, aria, and performer names in numerous languages
>
> > Really? Most of the non-English names I hear on American radio
> > stations, including NPR, are hilariously mispronounced.
>
> Not a problem in my experience.

Would you be able to tell?

> And here is a brief snippet , only one
> I could find, starting at about :45 in , and only approximating
> Chicago's golden-voiced Jay Andres, whom Don knew well, Mr. Andres
> never missing a name. In the 60's, I'd listen to Andres' American
> Airlines sponsored " Music Until Dawn "  ( ? Don ? ) , usually started
> listening at about Midnight- 1 am when the daytime static /
> interference finally subsided and I could get WBBM-AM from Chicago,
> about 225 miles away. Still remember my first hearing of the Saint-
> Saens 4th Piano Concerto then, at a time I only knew S-S had written a
> 3rd Violin Concerto , based on my parents' Francescatti / Ansermet /
> OSR Columbia lp :
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6IvD65mXYs

I don't hear him pronounce any foreign names in that clip.

[graham]

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:jc3e8q$qqj$1...@dont-email.me...

They got into a tizzy, for a while, with the possessive case of Brahms,
pronouncing it "Brahmses".
Graham

[Frank Berger]

Dufus wrote:
> On Dec 11, 4:00 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 11, 4:30 pm, "Dontaitchic...@aol.com" <Dontaitchic...@aol.com>
>> . To move on, a WFMT announcer auditionee would have to take this
>>> and get it 94% correct, plus a very long script involving scores of
>>> song, aria, and performer names in numerous languages
>>
>> Really? Most of the non-English names I hear on American radio
>> stations, including NPR, are hilariously mispronounced.
>
> Not a problem in my experience. And here is a brief snippet , only one
> I could find, starting at about :45 in , and only approximating
> Chicago's golden-voiced Jay Andres, whom Don knew well, Mr. Andres
> never missing a name. In the 60's, I'd listen to Andres' American
> Airlines sponsored " Music Until Dawn " ( ? Don ? ) , usually started
> listening at about Midnight- 1 am when the daytime static /
> interference finally subsided and I could get WBBM-AM from Chicago,
> about 225 miles away.

Years ago, on certain nights, depending on the weather, I could get WLS from
Chicago from a certain area of the Rand Corp. parking lot in Santa Monica,
California. Really.

[Edward Cowan]

A version of that text has also circulated as "English is tough stuff."

Certainly there are many instances, on American classical FM stations,
of mispronunciations and also misinformation. (Dallas WRR-FM announcer,
many years ago, mentioned "the great Indian pianist ra-DOO lu-PUU". And
then there was a script I once wrote for a program on a classical
(sort-of) station in San Antonio, shortly after the passing of Kirsten
Flagstad. The announcer, who would not let ME read the script, uttered
the following:

"Ayan' nayow th' layte Kerstn Flayag-stayad'll sayng <long pause>
"Ayub-shlikker woe ayalstu-hiyun" from "Fie-DEE-lee-oh" by Ludd-Wig
vayan Boathaven." Those were the days... <g> --E.A.C.

Dontait...@aol.com <Dontait...@aol.com> wrote:

> On Dec 11, 2:18 pm, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
> > If you can pronounce correctly every word in this poem, you will be
> > speaking English better than 90% of the native English speakers in the
> > world. After trying the verses, a Frenchman said he'd prefer six
> > months of hard labour to reading six lines aloud.

--
hrabanus

[William Sommerwerck]

"graham" <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:wNbFq.12189$Ee3....@newsfe04.iad...

> [The BBC] got into a tizzy, for a while, with the possessive

> case of Brahms, pronouncing it "Brahmses".

That isn't incorrect, just clumsy-sounding.

A reasonable rule would be that any word or name ending with an ess sound
shouldn't have another ess sound added to form the possessive.

This rule is generally followed in written English, with an apostrophe --
but no s -- added. "We shall now play the first of Brahms' four symphonies."

[William Sommerwerck]

It's interesting -- and appalling, if you're a nut about such things, as I
am -- to hear pronunciation changing.

For example, you sometimes hear announcers putting the accent on the "wrong"
syllable -- the syllable the British emphasize.

Then there's the way the U S Army has redefined the pronunciation of "cache"
as "cachet". Both words have the same root, but that's no justification for
pronouncing the same.

[td]

On Dec 12, 6:11 am, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
wrote:

None.

Cache is pronounced as "cash".

Cachet is pronounced as cash-eh

Both are French words adopted into English.

TD

[graham]

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:jc4nao$co2$1...@dont-email.me...

Yes, I know it's correct and I also know about the placement of the
apostrophe. However, that pronunciation caused a lot of controversy and
they soon reverted to the traditional one.

[herman]

On 12 déc, 00:40, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:


>
> Genius rarely resides in the throat. Or the tongue.
>
> TD

I've met some... but I have no idea how they would do this test.

[wagnerfan]

Actually no - according to many grammar books e.g. Strunk and White
and others

although singular names ending in s or an s sound are not required to
have the second s added in possessive form, it is preferred.



Mr. Jones's golf clubs



Texas's weather



Ms. Straus's daughter

Wagner Fan

[Russ (not Martha)]

On Dec 11, 9:36 pm, oldgerman...@nospam.com (Edward Cowan) wrote:
> A version of that text has also circulated as "English is tough stuff."
>
> Certainly there are many instances, on American classical FM stations,
> of mispronunciations and also misinformation. (Dallas WRR-FM announcer,
> many years ago, mentioned "the great Indian pianist ra-DOO lu-PUU". And
> then there was a script I once wrote for a program on a classical
> (sort-of) station in San Antonio, shortly after the passing of Kirsten
> Flagstad. The announcer, who would not let ME read the script, uttered
> the following:
>
> "Ayan' nayow th' layte Kerstn Flayag-stayad'll sayng <long pause>
> "Ayub-shlikker woe ayalstu-hiyun" from "Fie-DEE-lee-oh" by Ludd-Wig
> vayan Boathaven." Those were the days... <g> --E.A.C.
>

I have a feeling this this is a certain local university station which
no longer broadcasts classical music.

I recall certain gems like 'The swan of Too-lonia' by Jean SEE-bius,
and a reference to the Soviet conductor Kiril Kon-SHRAH-din. And at
least once they offered a di-JITTLE recording (as distingushed from
analog).

Russ (not Martha)

[Steven Bornfeld]

Apparently correct; though I have just in the past several years noticed
that the NY Times uses the extra possessive "s".

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

[Steven Bornfeld]

On 12/11/2011 6:40 PM, td wrote:
>
> I doubt the boasting of many here that they could get it right. Even
> 94%.
>
> My experience of "Marvin Mellowbells" is that, with all due respect,
> their ability to pronounce difficult words and foreign expressions is
> inversely proportional to their mental acuity.
>
> If you want to have an itelligent conversaion, don't try one with Don
> Pardo.
>
> Genius rarely resides in the throat. Or the tongue.
>
> TD

I doubt very much that there would be much of a correlation, regardless
the metrics.
Don Pardo is still working (though officially retired) at the age of
93. I'm guessing he's doing something right.

[O]

In article
<dac4392f-6e59-4d5e...@s26g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,

Russ (not Martha) <roppe...@satx.rr.com> wrote:


> And at
> least once they offered a di-JITTLE recording (as distingushed from
> analog).

Anna Who?

-Owen

[Christopher Howell]

On 12 Dic, 18:14, "Russ (not Martha)" <roppenh...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
>
> I recall certain gems like 'The swan of Too-lonia' by Jean SEE-bius,
> and a reference to the Soviet conductor Kiril Kon-SHRAH-din.  And at
> least once they offered a di-JITTLE recording (as distingushed from
> analog).
>

An Italian radio announcer unwittingly hit the nail on the head when
he announced a piece by "Daily Ooze". I won't try to transliterate his
attempt at "On hearing the first cuckoo in summer"

Chris Howell

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Steven Bornfeld <bornfe...@dentaltwins.com> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in news:jc5euk$tul$1...@dont-email.me:

> Apparently correct; though I have just in the past several years noticed
> that the NY Times uses the extra possessive "s".

The New York Times' style manual does not concern me.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Steven Bornfeld <bornfe...@dentaltwins.com> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in news:jc5fbn$17b$1...@dont-email.me:

> I doubt very much that there would be much of a correlation,
> regardless the metrics.
> Don Pardo is still working (though officially retired) at the age
> of 93. I'm guessing he's doing something right.

He is truly among the greats. So was Ben Grauer (who also has the strange
distinction that the last person he ever spoke to was Isaac Asimov).

[Wayne Brown]

Anna Russell?

--
F. Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net>

Þæs ofereode, ðisses swa mæg. ("That passed away, this also can.")
from "Deor," in the Exeter Book (folios 100r-100v)

[John Wiser]

"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9FB98B556FB...@216.168.3.70...

> Steven Bornfeld <bornfe...@dentaltwins.com> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in news:jc5euk$tul$1...@dont-email.me:
>
>> Apparently correct; though I have just in the past several years noticed
>> that the NY Times uses the extra possessive "s".
>
> The New York Times' style manual does not concern me.
>

Nor, as far as I can determine, any other.

JDW

[Gerard]

Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> Steven Bornfeld <bornfe...@dentaltwins.com> appears to have caused
> the following letters to be typed in news:jc5euk$tul$1...@dont-email.me:
>
> > Apparently correct; though I have just in the past several years
> > noticed that the NY Times uses the extra possessive "s".
>
> The New York Times' style manual does not concern me.

In that case it's worthless.

[Dontait...@aol.com]

On Dec 12, 3:33 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Steven Bornfeld <bornfeldm...@dentaltwins.com> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed innews:jc5fbn$17b$1...@dont-email.me:

>
> >      I doubt very much that there would be much of a correlation,
> > regardless the metrics.
> >      Don Pardo is still working (though officially retired) at the age
> > of 93.  I'm guessing he's doing something right.
>
> He is truly among the greats.  So was Ben Grauer (who also has the strange
> distinction that the last person he ever spoke to was Isaac Asimov).

Yes indeed about Ben Grauer! He was a magnificent announcer. So too
was Jim Fassett on CBS, with the New York Philharmonic and summer
festival broadcasts. Don Pardo too. And he's unique.

We long-time announcers notice such things.

Don Tait

[Steven Bornfeld]

On 12/12/2011 4:33 PM, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> Steven Bornfeld<bornfe...@dentaltwins.com> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in news:jc5euk$tul$1...@dont-email.me:
>
>> Apparently correct; though I have just in the past several years noticed
>> that the NY Times uses the extra possessive "s".
>
> The New York Times' style manual does not concern me.
>

Old Man Trouble, I don't mind him...

S.

[Dontait...@aol.com]

Maybe you've only worked with jerks at jerky stations. No moron like
that would EVER have been hired at WFMT or WNIB in Chicago. Never. I
worked at both stations. I know.

Don Tait

[Dontait...@aol.com]

On Dec 11, 5:21 pm, Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Dec 11, 4:00 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 11, 4:30 pm, "Dontaitchic...@aol.com" <Dontaitchic...@aol.com>

> >. To move on, a WFMT announcer auditionee would have to take this
> > > and get it 94% correct, plus a very long script involving scores of

> > > song, aria, and performer names in numerous languages
>
> > Really? Most of the non-English names I hear on American radio
> > stations, including NPR, are hilariously mispronounced.
>
> Not a problem in my experience. And here is a brief snippet , only one
> I could find, starting at about :45 in , and only approximating
> Chicago's golden-voiced Jay Andres, whom Don knew well, Mr. Andres
> never missing a name. In the 60's, I'd listen to Andres' American
> Airlines sponsored " Music Until Dawn "  ( ? Don ? ) , usually started
> listening at about Midnight- 1 am when the daytime static /
> interference finally subsided and I could get WBBM-AM from Chicago,

> about 225 miles away. Still remember my first hearing of the Saint-
> Saens 4th Piano Concerto then, at a time I only knew S-S had written a
> 3rd Violin Concerto , based on my parents' Francescatti / Ansermet /
> OSR Columbia lp :
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6IvD65mXYs
>

> Dufus

Yes, I knew Jay Andres. I listened to him on Chicago radio from the
late 1950s. He was a magnificent announcer in many ways, almost
stunningly good on the air. But he did make his mistakes, as all of us
announcers did. That's inevitable when you're doing scores of
announcements in just a handful of hours.

I worked with Jay. The end of his career was sad. But he brought it
upon himself.

Don Tait

P.S. Saint-Saens 3d Violin Concerto with Francescatti: wasn't that
with Ormandy/Philadelphia on Columbia? Or Mitropoulos/NYPSO? I don't
recall any commercial recordings with Francescatti, Ansermet, and the
OSR.

[Dufus]

On Dec 12, 4:42 pm, "Dontaitchic...@aol.com" <Dontaitchic...@aol.com>
wrote:

>   P.S. Saint-Saens 3d Violin Concerto with Francescatti: wasn't that
> with Ormandy/Philadelphia on Columbia? Or Mitropoulos/NYPSO? I don't
> recall any commercial recordings with Francescatti, Ansermet, and the
> OSR.

Yes, I got that wrong. The Columbia lp had both the S-S # 3 and the
Paganini # 1 with the forces you mention, Mitropoulos/NYPO in the S-S,
Ormandy the Paganini.

[M forever]

On Dec 12, 12:14 pm, "Russ (not Martha)" <roppenh...@satx.rr.com>
wrote:

> On Dec 11, 9:36 pm, oldgerman...@nospam.com (Edward Cowan) wrote:
>
> > A version of that text has also circulated as "English is tough stuff."
>
> > Certainly there are many instances, on American classical FM stations,
> > of mispronunciations and also misinformation. (Dallas WRR-FM announcer,
> > many years ago, mentioned "the great Indian pianist ra-DOO lu-PUU". And
> > then there was a script I once wrote for a program on a classical
> > (sort-of) station in San Antonio, shortly after the passing of Kirsten
> > Flagstad. The announcer, who would not let ME read the script, uttered
> > the following:
>
> > "Ayan' nayow th' layte Kerstn Flayag-stayad'll sayng <long pause>
> > "Ayub-shlikker woe ayalstu-hiyun" from "Fie-DEE-lee-oh" by Ludd-Wig
> > vayan Boathaven." Those were the days... <g> --E.A.C.
>
> I have a feeling this this is a certain local university station which
> no longer broadcasts classical music.
>
> I recall certain gems like 'The swan of Too-lonia' by Jean SEE-bius,

Toolonia or Tuonela, most people get the pronunciation of these
Finnish names wrong because they don't realize Finnish words are
usually stressed on the first syllable. So it's TUonela (with a short
e, like TUonella) and TApiola (TApi-olla). However, it is SiBElius
because that is actually a Swedish name.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

"Dontait...@aol.com" <Dontait...@aol.com> appears to have caused

the following letters to be typed in

news:c22c28b8-6714-413f...@j9g2000vby.googlegroups.com:

> On Dec 11, 5:40 pm, [pianoclavin] wrote:
>> On Dec 11, 6:16 pm, "Gerard" <ghendriksen-nosp...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Dontaitchic...@aol.com wrote:
>> > > On Dec 11, 4:38 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> > > > "Dontaitchic...@aol.com" <Dontaitchic...@aol.com> appears to have
>> > > > caused the following letters to be typed in news:227e2c0a-d823-

>> > > > 454f-afdb-5...@c18g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:

The worst announcer we ever had in Los Angeles in my memory was someone named
Bonnie Grice. Need I say more?

[MiNe 109]

In article
<43b95672-309b-46c3...@r28g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,

M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Toolonia or Tuonela, most people get the pronunciation of these
> Finnish names wrong because they don't realize Finnish words are
> usually stressed on the first syllable. So it's TUonela (with a short
> e, like TUonella) and TApiola (TApi-olla). However, it is SiBElius
> because that is actually a Swedish name.

While I have no doubt that the last here is correct, no one told the
Finnish musicians who visited KUT some time ago and corrected their
interviewer when he mentioned the Swedish pronunciation.

Stephen

[Kip Williams]

Those provincial Finns!


Kip W

[Dufus]

On Dec 13, 7:29 am, Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Those provincial Finns!
>

And imagine poor Sibelius, hearing his name pronounced wrong all those
years !

[Polluter Politika]

On Dec 12, 1:03 pm, O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
> In article

> <dac4392f-6e59-4d5e-a067-3f09b170a...@s26g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,

> Russ (not Martha) <roppenh...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >  And at
> > least once they offered a di-JITTLE recording (as distingushed from
> > analog).
>
> Anna Who?
>
> -Owen

What about Saint-Saens? What is the proper pronunciation?

[Polluter Politika]

On Dec 11, 6:16 pm, "Gerard" <ghendriksen-nosp...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Dontaitchic...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Dec 11, 4:38 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > "Dontaitchic...@aol.com" <Dontaitchic...@aol.com> appears to have
> > > caused the following letters to be typed in

> > > news:227e2c0a-d823-454f-afdb-599d7f5c62f6

> > > @c18g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:
>
> > > > No problem. Honestly. Anyone who reads can get and knows it. It's
> > > > easy. To move on, a WFMT announcer auditionee would have to take
> > > > this and get it 94% correct, plus a very long script involving
> > > > scores of song, aria, and performer names in numerous languages,
> > > > to show sufficient proficiency to even be considered for the job.
> > > > The latter musical audition script was standard for years (not
> > > > the faux-Mike Nichols script that's been published all over the
> > > > place).
>
> > > > Don Tait
>
> > > Thank you for quoting this, Don. I wonder if this sort of thing
> > > could be used the same way the French use what they call a
> > > "dictée," i.e., read it out loud so that people can transcribe it
> > > and see how accurately they can do so.
>
> >   Thank YOU, Matthew.
>
> >   If people can't do the posted test well, so be it. Sadly. I can only
> > add to what I wrote: *everyone* who knows English decently should be
> > able to pass this test easily.
>
> Of course - that's answering the question by the question.
> But then the question is: do many native English speakers know English decently?

Can YOU pronounce every work in the above poem?
I you can't then stay out of the discussion!

[O]

In article
<86116f58-c3f1-41d3...@4g2000yqu.googlegroups.com>,

Around here we dabble in the improper.

-Owen

[William Sommerwerck]

> What about Saint-Saens? What is the proper pronunciation?

Sa-Sawn, I believe.

[John Wiser]

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:jc7p1f$7vu$1...@dont-email.me...

>> What about Saint-Saens? What is the proper pronunciation?
>
> Sa-Sawn, I believe.
>

Oy! ʃaʁl kamij sɛ̃sɑ̃s ! A guide for the perplexed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_French

JDW

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Dufus <steve...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters to
be typed in news:d850f700-89b9-4d10-8c0e-
1f250b...@c18g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:

Considering that he preferred a Frenchified version of his personal name, one
has to wonder.

[John Wiser]

"Christopher Howell" <ckho...@ckhowell.com> wrote:
>
> An Italian radio announcer unwittingly hit the nail on the head when
> he announced a piece by "Daily Ooze". I won't try to transliterate his
> attempt at "On hearing the first cuckoo in summer"

Sounds like editorializing to me.
We will now hear from another Chris
on the subject. No doubt.

JDW

[Mark S]

On Dec 12, 11:20 am, Christopher Howell <ckhow...@ckhowell.com> wrote:
> On 12 Dic, 18:14, "Russ (not Martha)" <roppenh...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > I recall certain gems like 'The swan of Too-lonia' by Jean SEE-bius,
> > and a reference to the Soviet conductor Kiril Kon-SHRAH-din.  And at
> > least once they offered a di-JITTLE recording (as distingushed from
> > analog).
>

I'm part Finn, my great grandfather knew Sibelius personally and we
were taught that the correct pronunciation of his surname was, indeed,
SEE-bay-lee-oos, with the stress on the first syllable.

BTW - ask a Dutch person how they pronounce "van Gogh."

[MiNe 109]

In article
<13bad2da-d9b6-48b2...@l18g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,

I'm happy to hear this! Thanks.

Stephen

> BTW - ask a Dutch person how they pronounce "van Gogh."

Or a Dane "Kirkegaard."

Stephen

[O]

In article <smcelroy2-6A0AB...@5ad64b5e.bb.sky.com>, MiNe

Ask a Rhode Islander how they pronounce "water."

-Owen - "wought - ah"

[Mark S]

On Dec 12, 4:15 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:

>However, it is SiBElius
> because that is actually a Swedish name.

Are you sure about that? Yes, Sibelius was born into a Swedish-
speaking home, but Finland was basically under Swedish influence at
the time. Swedish was the language that was generally spoken by the
professional and educated classes. Just because Swedish was spoken in
their home doesn't necessarily mean the Sibelius surname was a Swedish
name.

I mention this because my own surname - Stenroos - is indigenous to
both Sweden and Finland. I've been told that the name means "stone-
rose" in Finnish and "rock pile" in Swedish. Don't know if that's
true, but it's a good ice breaker. I'm sure that whatever is true,
most people in rmcr would agree that the "Sten" of my surname is a
good indicator of the rocks in my head. :)

[MiNe 109]

In article
<a7591dfb-06a9-48c9...@f33g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,

Sure makes Stenhammar sound manly!

Stephen

[Russ (not Martha)]

On Dec 13, 7:29 am, Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:

> MiNe 109 wrote:
> > In article

> > <43b95672-309b-46c3-bf04-07da09313...@r28g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,

Back during a short happy period when we hicks in San Antonio TX could
actually receive WFMT thru our cable service, I recall an announcer,
who had a really bad case of being More Royal than the King, render
the great Finnish composer's surname as 'SIBBLE-yus.' Bound and
determined to stress that first syllable; never mind that Sibelius, as
correctly pointed out above, is a Swedish name, and a Latinized one at
that.

Russ (not Martha)

[Russ (not Martha)]

On Dec 13, 11:34 am, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> BTW - ask a Dutch person how they pronounce "van Gogh."

If you don't hawk up an oyster, you're not pronouncing it right.

Russ (not Martha)

[wagnerfan]

So what is the correct pronunciation of the Belgian conductor
Cluytens??? The announcer on the classical station in our area
pronounced it Cloy-tens.

Wagner fan

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Mark S <markst...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:a7591dfb-06a9-48c9-a487-bfa079fbeb37
@f33g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:

> On Dec 12, 4:15 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>However, it is SiBElius
>> because that is actually a Swedish name.
>
> Are you sure about that? Yes, Sibelius was born into a Swedish-speaking
> home, but Finland was basically under Swedish influence at the time.
> Swedish was the language that was generally spoken by the professional
> and educated classes. Just because Swedish was spoken in their home
> doesn't necessarily mean the Sibelius surname was a Swedish name.
>
> I mention this because my own surname - Stenroos - is indigenous to both

> Sweden and Finland. I've been told that the name means "stone-rose" in

> Finnish and "rock pile" in Swedish. Don't know if that's true, but it's a
> good ice breaker. I'm sure that whatever is true, most people in rmcr
> would agree that the "Sten" of my surname is a good indicator of the
> rocks in my head. :)

Well, my surname means "carpets" in Norwegian, but we're not Norsk.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!

Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion

Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.

[td]

On Dec 12, 4:33 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Steven Bornfeld <bornfeldm...@dentaltwins.com> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed innews:jc5fbn$17b$1...@dont-email.me:
>
> >      I doubt very much that there would be much of a correlation,
> > regardless the metrics.
> >      Don Pardo is still working (though officially retired) at the age
> > of 93.  I'm guessing he's doing something right.
>
> He is truly among the greats.

HA HA HA HA HA AH

I guess greatness is in the eye of the beholder.

TD

[td]

On Dec 12, 12:58 pm, Steven Bornfeld <bornfeldm...@dentaltwins.com>
wrote:

> On 12/11/2011 6:40 PM, td wrote:
>
>
>
> > I doubt the boasting of many here that they could get it right. Even
> > 94%.
>
> > My experience of "Marvin Mellowbells" is that, with all due respect,
> > their ability to pronounce difficult words and foreign expressions is
> > inversely proportional to their mental acuity.
>

> > If you want to have an itelligent conversaion, don't try one with Don
> > Pardo.
>
> > Genius rarely resides in the throat. Or the tongue.
>
> > TD

>
>         I doubt very much that there would be much of a correlation, regardless
> the metrics.
>         Don Pardo is still working (though officially retired) at the age of
> 93.  I'm guessing he's doing something right.

Longevity is not synonymous with mental acuity.

TD

[td]

On Dec 12, 5:28 pm, "Dontaitchic...@aol.com" <Dontaitchic...@aol.com>
wrote:

> On Dec 11, 5:40 pm, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
> > My experience of "Marvin Mellowbells" is that, with all due respect,
> > their ability to pronounce difficult words and foreign expressions is
> > inversely proportional to their mental acuity.
>

>   Maybe you've only worked with jerks at jerky stations. No moron like
> that would EVER have been hired at WFMT or WNIB in Chicago. Never. I
> worked at both stations. I know.

Hmmmmmm.

WFMT was built on Marvin Mellowbells, from what I have heard.

Isn't that the house that Norman Pelligrini built?

TD

[td]

On Dec 13, 10:05 am, "John Wiser" <ceec...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net> wrote in message

>
> news:jc7p1f$7vu$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> >> What about Saint-Saens? What is the proper pronunciation?
>
> > Sa-Sawn, I believe.
>

> sɛ̃sɑ̃s

Now, just TRY to get an American to pronounce that correctly. Nasal
vowels are not often used in English and Americans almost always get
them wrong in French.

TD

[Dufus]

On Dec 13, 6:28 pm, "Russ (not Martha)" <roppenh...@satx.rr.com>
wrote:

And I love the English "presenters" who refer to: "Rack-man-inoff."

[graham]

"Dufus" <steve...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:de7fe9ea-f421-4cd9...@32g2000yqp.googlegroups.com...

On Dec 13, 6:28 pm, "Russ (not Martha)" <roppenh...@satx.rr.com>
wrote:

And I love the English "presenters" who refer to: "Rack-man-inoff."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
So? I bet you put 'erbs and parmezhan on your pizza and drive a Marzda.

[Gerard]

You can find about it in the archives:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.classical.recordings/browse_frm/thread/13e8930c8868fc/f224657e1bee2693?hl=nl&lnk=gst&q=cluytens+pronunciation#f224657e1bee2693

[Gerard]

Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> Mark S <markst...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:a7591dfb-06a9-48c9-a487-bfa079fbeb37
> @f33g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:
>
> > On Dec 12, 4:15 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > However, it is SiBElius
> > > because that is actually a Swedish name.
> >
> > Are you sure about that? Yes, Sibelius was born into a
> > Swedish-speaking home, but Finland was basically under Swedish
> > influence at the time. Swedish was the language that was generally
> > spoken by the professional and educated classes. Just because
> > Swedish was spoken in their home doesn't necessarily mean the
> > Sibelius surname was a Swedish name.
> >
> > I mention this because my own surname - Stenroos - is indigenous to
> > both Sweden and Finland. I've been told that the name means
> > "stone-rose" in Finnish and "rock pile" in Swedish. Don't know if
> > that's true, but it's a good ice breaker. I'm sure that whatever is
> > true, most people in rmcr would agree that the "Sten" of my surname
> > is a good indicator of the rocks in my head. :)
>
> Well, my surname means "carpets" in Norwegian, but we're not Norsk.

What about the English meaning:

"Tepper , tepper meaning , definition of tepper , meaning of tepper - A Tepper
is a set of male genitalia that has been gelded, or had the testicles removed.
Typically this refers to the process of removing the testicles with a crude
device, such as a knife, stapler, rubberband, or piece of rusty metal.
Some examples : They had used a rusty piece of metal to make him a tepper, so
his tepper was rotting off."

http://www.definition-of.net/tepper

[herman]

On 14 déc, 02:25, wagnerfan <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 16:30:44 -0800 (PST), "Russ (not Martha)"
>

> <roppenh...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
> >On Dec 13, 11:34 am, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> BTW - ask a Dutch person how they pronounce "van Gogh."
>
> >If you don't hawk up an oyster, you're not pronouncing it right.
>
> >Russ (not Martha)
>
>  So what is the correct pronunciation of the Belgian conductor
> Cluytens??? The announcer on the classical station in our area
> pronounced it Cloy-tens.
>

It's good enough. There's no chance of mixing him up with another
conductor.

[td]

On Dec 14, 3:16 am, "Gerard" <ghendriksen-nosp...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Matthew B. Tepper wrote:

> > Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following

We were aware of the gelding, as are his "girlfriends", I should
think.

Frankly I am more curious about his mental deficiencies.

TD

[Lena]

On Dec 11, 7:36 pm, oldgerman...@nospam.com (Edward Cowan) wrote:

>
> A version of that text has also circulated as "English is tough stuff."
>

I like this language for its expressive range, though the
pronunciation may be difficult:

" There have been many attempts to create languages. [...] Suzette
Haden Elgin created Láaden as a language better suited for expressing
women’s points of view. Láaden has a single word, “bala,” that means
“I’m angry for a reason but nothing can be done about it.” "

(I found this a few days ago as is, lying about in the New York
Times.)

L.

> Certainly there are many instances, on American classical FM stations,
> of mispronunciations and also misinformation. (Dallas WRR-FM announcer,
> many years ago, mentioned "the great Indian pianist ra-DOO lu-PUU". And
> then there was a script I once wrote for a program on a classical
> (sort-of) station in San Antonio, shortly after the passing of Kirsten
> Flagstad. The announcer, who would not let ME read the script, uttered
> the following:
>
> "Ayan' nayow th' layte Kerstn Flayag-stayad'll sayng <long pause>
> "Ayub-shlikker woe ayalstu-hiyun" from "Fie-DEE-lee-oh" by Ludd-Wig
> vayan Boathaven." Those were the days... <g> --E.A.C.
>

[Norman Schwartz]

td wrote:
> On Dec 13, 10:05 am, "John Wiser" <ceec...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:jc7p1f$7vu$1...@dont-email.me...
>>
>>>> What about Saint-Saens? What is the proper pronunciation?
>>
>>> Sa-Sawn, I believe.
>>

>> s?~s?~s

>
> Now, just TRY to get an American to pronounce that correctly. Nasal
> vowels are not often used in English and Americans almost always get
> them wrong in French.
>
> TD

http://www.forvo.com/word/camille_saint-sa%C3%ABns/

Good luck!

[Russ (not Martha)]

I did not write that.

Russ (not Martha)

[Russ (not Martha)]

On Dec 13, 7:25 pm, wagnerfan <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>  So what is the correct pronunciation of the Belgian conductor
> Cluytens??? The announcer on the classical station in our area
> pronounced it Cloy-tens.
>
> Wagner fan

http://heracleums.org/tools/pronunciation/fr/of/Andr%C3%A9_Cluytens/

Clee-TONG - last syllable nasalized, rhymes with the last syllable of
Saint-Saëns without the hiss on the end.

Russ (not Martha, not a Francophone)

[Gerard]

Only if you want to pronounce his name in a French way. (For others - than
French speaking people - it will be unrecognizable.)

[Allen]

44 years ago KMFA, our Classical Music For Austin station kicked off
successfully, thanks in large part to their main announcer hose
determination for the next 20 or 25 years kept the station growing. I
won't mention his name here because I hate to associate his name with a
negative; that one negative was a ridiculous tendency to
"over-pronounce" for want of a better term. From him issued such jewels
as "C. Baily.Oos", with each syllable pronounced as a separate word.
Another was "Don Day" (no, not Doris's brother, whose name was actually
Kappelhoff)--his version of Vincent D'Indy. Perhaps fortunately, he
seemed to have little or no interest in Polish composers. I wish I could
remember all of his goofs, as a person could put together a 30-minute
program on them. He could never understand that "over-pronunciation" was
just as wrong as any other pronunciation error, bless his heart.
Allen

[Edward Cowan]

(Overheard once, long ago, from a student of French at UT-Arlington):
"Frayanch iyus aohkay, but ah cain't pernayunce thayem nayzals." (NOTE:
I was a professor of German in that department of foreign languages...)
--E.A.C. (German major, French minor)

td <tomde...@mac.com> wrote:

> Now, just TRY to get an American to pronounce that correctly. Nasal
> vowels are not often used in English and Americans almost always get
> them wrong in French.

--
hrabanus

[Edward Cowan]

I can remember when the original KHFI-FM went on the air in Austin
(March 25, 1956, Toscanini's 89th birthday). I did not then have an FM
tuner, but I quickly acquired a Heathkit tuner so I could receive the
then-mono signal of the station. The existence of KHFI was almost too
good to be true, and, indeed, it lasted just under ten years, soon to be
succeeded by KMFA. That station exists to this day, and it remains a
listener-supported station, despite the inevitable decline in
programming quality so typical of many classical stations today, WFMT
and a few others excepted. (The station may be heard here:
http://www.kmfa.org/ ). The station's website used to have a few audio
clips of the former PD's speaking voice, but they seem not to be there
any more. I do have a CD of them, however. There is an interesting
history of the station and its predecessor here:
http://www.kmfa.org/index_story.htm . I knew several of the people
mentioned in that file. --E.A.C.

Allen <all...@austin.rr.com> wrote:


> 44 years ago KMFA, our Classical Music For Austin station kicked off
> successfully, thanks in large part to their main announcer hose
> determination for the next 20 or 25 years kept the station growing. I
> won't mention his name here because I hate to associate his name with a
> negative; that one negative was a ridiculous tendency to
> "over-pronounce" for want of a better term. From him issued such jewels
> as "C. Baily.Oos", with each syllable pronounced as a separate word.
> Another was "Don Day" (no, not Doris's brother, whose name was actually
> Kappelhoff)--his version of Vincent D'Indy. Perhaps fortunately, he
> seemed to have little or no interest in Polish composers. I wish I could
> remember all of his goofs, as a person could put together a 30-minute
> program on them. He could never understand that "over-pronunciation" was
> just as wrong as any other pronunciation error, bless his heart.
> Allen

--
hrabanus

[M forever]

On Dec 13, 1:45 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Dec 12, 4:15 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >However, it is SiBElius
> > because that is actually a Swedish name.
>
> Are you sure about that?

Yes, 100%. If you know just a few Finnish names, you can already get a
good feeling that Sibelius doesn't sound like a Finnish name at all,
but apart from such speculation, you can also look up the history of
his family and his name in Tawaststjerna's biography. The family name
was originally Sibbe, and one of his ancestors, IIRC his grandfather
changed it to Sibelius at one point which was a very common practice
for Swedish speakers - however not for Finns - for a long time. I
think it was meant to signal a higher social standing, a higher
education.

Also, the Finnish language doesn't actually have a B sound which is
why the letter only occurs in recent loanwords, not in original
Finnish words and not in Finnish names either. Older loanwords and
imported names don't have it either, e.g. they say "Hampuri" for
Hamburg.

> Yes, Sibelius was born into a Swedish-
> speaking home, but Finland was basically under Swedish influence at
> the time.

It was actually dominated by Tsarist Russia at the time, but the
Swedish influence was obviously still very strong after centuries of
Swedish domination. Swedish is actually still one of its official
languages even today.

> Swedish was the language that was generally spoken by the
> professional and educated classes. Just because Swedish was spoken in
> their home doesn't necessarily mean the Sibelius surname was a Swedish
> name.

Indeed not, but as you know, I prefer information to uninformed
speculation. I don't know how much use of one or the other language
was actually tied to "ethnicity" in Finland back then, but the
situation was probably very complex. Now I am actually speculating
myself, but that observation does apply to any area and period of
history with similar constellations, e.g. the relationship between
German and Czech language and people in Bohemia and Moravia.

> I mention this because my own surname - Stenroos - is indigenous to
> both Sweden and Finland.

I am not surprised, since there are so many Fins with Swedish names.
Like Sibelius.

> I've been told that the name means "stone-
> rose" in Finnish

Definitely not. Finnish isn't even an Indo-European language, so such
similarities would be extremely unlikely to begin with (unless, again,
we are dealing with loan words). But it is very unlikely that such a
basic word as stone would be so similar to the equivalent word in a
more or less completely unrelated language. I looked it up. Stone is
"kivi" in Finnish.

[M forever]

On Dec 13, 12:10 am, MiNe 109 <smcelr...@POPaustin.rr.com> wrote:
> In article
> <43b95672-309b-46c3-bf04-07da09313...@r28g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
>  M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Toolonia or Tuonela, most people get the pronunciation of these
> > Finnish names wrong because they don't realize Finnish words are
> > usually stressed on the first syllable. So it's TUonela (with a short

> > e, like TUonella) and TApiola (TApi-olla). However, it is SiBElius

> > because that is actually a Swedish name.
>

> While I have no doubt that the last here is correct, no one told the
> Finnish musicians who visited KUT some time ago and corrected their
> interviewer when he mentioned the Swedish pronunciation.

Oh, I am sure they knew. I have come across that now and then, too.
Some Finns do pronounce the name with the stress on the first syllable
to make it sound more Finnish. After all, he is the biggest national
treasure and some have a hard time reconciling themselves with the
fact that he has a non-Finnish name. As if it had anything to do with
that. Some Fins also pronounce his first name Janne (sounding like
"Yanne), the Finnish version of his first name Johan, although he
himself preferred to call himself Jean (pronounced the French way)
because he felt it had a more cosmopolitan sound to it...

[Mark S]

Thanks for that very informative post! A good read. I wonder what
"sten" means in Finnish.

BTW - according to our family legends, my great-grandfather met Tsar
Nicholas II and was offered a Russian name by the Tsar but politely
refused. His name was Wahlström, and he played French horn in the
Helsinki Symphony.

[M forever]

I don't know either. Why don't you look it up? I only know a few words
and phrases in Finnish which I all learned in younger years from
Finnish musicians (for many years, I participated in a German-
Scandinavian youth orchestra, and there were a lot of Fins in that,
too, even though Finland is technically not Scandinavia, but it was
more meant in the cultural sense of general northern Europe). But you
only have to know a few words and hear the language spoken, and look
at a few names and words, to realize that it is indeed a completely
different language from all the other northern European languages.

> BTW - according to our family legends, my great-grandfather met Tsar
> Nicholas II and was offered a Russian name by the Tsar but politely
> refused. His name was Wahlström, and he played French horn in the
> Helsinki Symphony.

That story is obviously complete BS. But Wahlström is also obviously a
Swedish, not a Finnish name. Which of course has nothing to do with
the content of the story.

[CharlesSmith]

On Wednesday, December 14, 2011 10:25:44 PM UTC, M forever wrote:

> I don't know either. Why don't you look it up? I only know a few words
> and phrases in Finnish which I all learned in younger years from
> Finnish musicians (for many years, I participated in a German-
> Scandinavian youth orchestra, and there were a lot of Fins in that,
> too, even though Finland is technically not Scandinavia, but it was
> more meant in the cultural sense of general northern Europe). But you
> only have to know a few words and hear the language spoken, and look
> at a few names and words, to realize that

(along with its close neighbour, Estonian)

> it is indeed a completely
> different language from all the other northern European languages.
>

Charles

[Dontait...@aol.com]

On Dec 13, 6:28 pm, "Russ (not Martha)" <roppenh...@satx.rr.com>
wrote:

[snip]

> Back during a short happy period when we hicks in San Antonio TX could
> actually receive WFMT thru our cable service, I recall an announcer,
> who had a really bad case of being More Royal than the King, render
> the great Finnish composer's surname as 'SIBBLE-yus.'   Bound and
> determined to stress that first syllable; never mind that Sibelius, as
> correctly pointed out above, is a Swedish name, and a Latinized one at
> that.
>
> Russ (not Martha)

Who was the idiot WFMT announcer? When did it happen? I'm serious.
There is a WFMT training school for such errors. Please tell details.

A WFMT veteran,

Don Tait

[MiNe 109]

In article
<c0bd768e-783a-48c5...@o9g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,

The same professor who insisted we learn "KEER-kuh-gor" didn't have
anything to say about the standard pronunciation of Sibelius and he
worked at the Sibelius Academy.

Stephen

[Dontait...@aol.com]

On Dec 13, 7:25 pm, wagnerfan <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 16:30:44 -0800 (PST), "Russ (not Martha)"

>
> <roppenh...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
> >On Dec 13, 11:34 am, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> BTW - ask a Dutch person how they pronounce "van Gogh."
>
> >If you don't hawk up an oyster, you're not pronouncing it right.
>
> >Russ (not Martha)
>

>  So what is the correct pronunciation of the Belgian conductor
> Cluytens??? The announcer on the classical station in our area
> pronounced it Cloy-tens.
>
> Wagner fan

Your announcer was correct. "Cloy-tens." Flemish, perhaps?
onunciation is explained and presented, first, in the printed notes
for the two-CD EMI set devoted to Cluytens in the "Great Conductors"
series. Second, I was told personally by Paul Vermel, who studied
conducting with Cluytens, that that was how the name was pronounced.
Paul knew him.

Don Tait

[Dontait...@aol.com]

No, pal. Bernie. Rita. Know them?

And learn how to spell peoples' names correctly, chum.

You've made it clear that WFMT had, and has, standards and style you
hold in contempt. Fine. Do it your way. All you'd ever be shown there
was the door. And WFMT would go on winning awards for excellence.

Don Tait



Jeez, sick with hate.

[John Wiser]

"Gerard" <ghendriks...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:59c72$4ee8c91c$53565469$16...@cache60.multikabel.net...

That is simply not true.

JDW

[wagnerfan]

Welcome to Deacon's world!!!!! Just a bitter old fool.

Wagner Fan

[wagnerfan]

Thanks for the info Wagner Fan

[pianomaven]

On Dec 14, 6:51 pm, "Dontaitchic...@aol.com" <Dontaitchic...@aol.com>

wrote:
> On Dec 13, 7:37 pm, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 12, 5:28 pm, "Dontaitchic...@aol.com" <Dontaitchic...@aol.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 11, 5:40 pm, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
> > > > My experience of "Marvin Mellowbells" is that, with all due respect,
> > > > their ability to pronounce difficult words and foreign expressions is
> > > > inversely proportional to their mental acuity.
>
> > >   Maybe you've only worked with jerks at jerky stations. No moron like
> > > that would EVER have been hired at WFMT or WNIB in Chicago. Never. I
> > > worked at both stations. I know.
>
> > Hmmmmmm.
>
> > WFMT was built on Marvin Mellowbells, from what I have heard.
>
> > Isn't that the house that Norman Pelligrini built?
>
> > TD
>
>   No, pal. Bernie. Rita. Know them?

Yup.

>   And learn how to spell peoples' names correctly, chum.

Why? He's dead, isn't he? Does he care anymore?

>   You've made it clear that WFMT had, and has, standards and style you
> hold in contempt.

In contempt? No. I just would never listen to a station like that.
Pickle up its ass. Out-moded. Prissy. Constipated.

> Fine. Do it your way.

I always do, have always done and will continue to do.

> All you'd ever be shown there was the door.

The best place for anyone interested in broadcasting to be is on the
outside of that door, Don.

And WFMT would go on winning awards for excellence.

Award winners. Audience killers.

Old Chinese saying.

>   Jeez, sick with hate.

LOL. You think so? Not really. Just use my brains and a modicum of
taste.

TD

[pianomaven]

On Dec 14, 6:53 pm, "John Wiser" <ceec...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Gerard" <ghendriksen-nosp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

Correct.

Clearly the French pronounce that name - just listen to France
Musique, if you want to know for sure - with that unpronounceable
vowel most Anglophones find impossible to say correctly.

TD

[M forever]

On Dec 14, 6:49 pm, MiNe 109 <smcelr...@POPaustin.rr.com> wrote:
> In article

> <c0bd768e-783a-48c5-aed2-c319be56f...@o9g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,

You are probably referring to Kierkegaard. So what does that have to
do with Sibelius?

[Russ (not Martha)]

Allen, did this announcer previously work for KHFI back in the 50's?
And was he on the - ahem - rotund side? We may be thinking of the
same guy. (L***** M******)

Russ (not Martha)

[MiNe 109]

In article
<b95210f1-dd0f-4a33...@n6g2000vbg.googlegroups.com>,

The professor who insisted we pronounce Kierkegaard correctly worked at
the Sibelius Academy, conducted Sibelius with the university orchestra
and never corrected our pronunciation of Sibelius, implying Si-BE-lius
was acceptable. If he took such trouble with the Danish name, he surely
would have told us if we weren't correct with the Finnish one.

He also speaks Finnish and, I believe, Swedish, so he wouldn't have
trouble reconciling the different pronunciations of the two languages.

Stephen

[Russ (not Martha)]

On Dec 14, 5:18 pm, "Dontaitchic...@aol.com" <Dontaitchic...@aol.com>
wrote:

I don't remember the name, Don. This was years & years ago, and I
wasn't assembling a dossier on the guy.

Russ (not Martha)

[Matthew B. Tepper]

"Dontait...@aol.com" <Dontait...@aol.com> appears to have caused
the following letters to be typed in news:ab7a77e8-3d5a-4647-9722-
0d5bf0...@q11g2000vbq.googlegroups.com:

> No, pal. Bernie. Rita. Know them?
>
> And learn how to spell peoples' names correctly, chum.
>
> You've made it clear that WFMT had, and has, standards and style you
> hold in contempt. Fine. Do it your way. All you'd ever be shown there
> was the door. And WFMT would go on winning awards for excellence.
>
> Don Tait
>
>
>
> Jeez, sick with hate.

The pianoclavin (that's my homage to the character of "Cliff Clavin" on
"Cheers," a know-it-all blowhard more to be pitied than respected)
demonstrably knows nothing of standards for a classical radio station.
He's the one, after all, who brought Bonnie Grice on board at KUSC.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers

[dw]

On Dec 11, 4:20 pm, "graham" <g.ste...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:jc3e8q$qqj$1...@dont-email.me...>>> No problem. Honestly. Anyone who reads can get and knows it. It's
> >>> easy. To move on, a WFMT announcer auditionee would have to take
> >>> this and get it 94% correct, plus a very long script involving scores of
> >>> song, aria, and performer names in numerous languages.
>
> >> Really? Most of the non-English names I hear on American radio
> >> stations, including NPR, are hilariously mispronounced. Probably
> >> because the people who score the test don't know how to pronounce
> >> them either. Over at the BBC, they are doing much better.
>
> > Yeah. They just stick Rs in words where they don't belong.
>
> They got into a tizzy, for a while, with the possessive case of Brahms,
> pronouncing it "Brahmses".
> Graham

Nothing wrong with that.

D

[td]

On Dec 14, 6:18 pm, "Dontaitchic...@aol.com" <Dontaitchic...@aol.com>
wrote:

LOL.

TD

[td]

Yeah, there's a lot wrong with that.

TD

[td]

On Dec 14, 10:43 pm, "Russ (not Martha)" <roppenh...@satx.rr.com>

wrote:
> On Dec 14, 5:18 pm, "Dontaitchic...@aol.com" <Dontaitchic...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 13, 6:28 pm, "Russ (not Martha)" <roppenh...@satx.rr.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >   [snip]
>
> > > Back during a short happy period when we hicks in San Antonio TX could
> > > actually receive WFMT thru our cable service, I recall an announcer,
> > > who had a really bad case of being More Royal than the King, render
> > > the great Finnish composer's surname as 'SIBBLE-yus.'   Bound and
> > > determined to stress that first syllable; never mind that Sibelius, as
> > > correctly pointed out above, is a Swedish name, and a Latinized one at
> > > that.
>
> > > Russ (not Martha)
>
> >   Who was the idiot WFMT announcer? When did it happen? I'm serious.
> > There is a WFMT training school for such errors. Please tell details.
>
> >   A WFMT veteran,
>
> >   Don Tait
>
> I don't remember the name, Don.  This was years & years ago, and I
> wasn't assembling a dossier on the guy.

It is typical that a WFMT employee be more concerned with the
pronunciation of a composer's name than with what he or she actually
said.

A constipated, congealed, moribund place populated by people who feel
comfortable in such a place.

TD

[Lena]

On Dec 14, 2:00 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 13, 12:10 am, MiNe 109   <smcelr...@POPaustin.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > > However, it is SiBElius because that is actually a Swedish name.
>
> > While I have no doubt that the last here is correct, no one told the
> > Finnish musicians who visited KUT some time ago and corrected their
> > interviewer when he mentioned the Swedish pronunciation.
>
> Oh, I am sure they knew. I have come across that now and then, too.
> Some Finns do pronounce the name with the stress on the first syllable
> to make it sound more Finnish.

No, not to make it sound more like anything, but because it flows more
easily with the rhythm of the language one is speaking in. That's the
same reason lots of people, for instance me, pronounce their own
name(s) slightly differently when speaking different languages.

> After all, he is the biggest national
> treasure and some have a hard time reconciling themselves with the
> fact that he has a non-Finnish name.

Huh?

Lena

[Gerard]

pianomaven wrote:
> On Dec 14, 6:53 pm, "John Wiser" <ceec...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > "Gerard" <ghendriksen-nosp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> > news:59c72$4ee8c91c$53565469$16...@cache60.multikabel.net...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Russ (not Martha) wrote:
> > > > On Dec 13, 7:25 pm, wagnerfan <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > So what is the correct pronunciation of the Belgian conductor
> > > > > Cluytens??? The announcer on the classical station in our area
> > > > > pronounced it Cloy-tens.
> >
> > > > > Wagner fan
> >
> > > > http://heracleums.org/tools/pronunciation/fr/of/Andr%C3%A9_Cluytens/
> >
> > > > Clee-TONG - last syllable nasalized, rhymes with the last
> > > > syllable of Saint-Saëns without the hiss on the end.
> >
> > > Only if you want to pronounce his name in a French way. (For
> > > others - than French speaking people - it will be unrecognizable.)
> >
> > That is simply not true.
>
> Correct.

What "Wiser" wrote was not correct.