Janowski Ring Reissue

[Dana John Hill]

A week or so ago I placed a pre-order for the just-released (15 January)
Sony reissue of Janowski's Ring. It was $32 when I placed my order, and I
see the price is now $52. I don't know if this is a temporary increase, but
given the presentation-which appears similar to the late-1990s reissue of
the Solti Ring-it's probably more than fair.

My one concern is that Amazon lists it as "temporarily out of stock". I
don't know if that means they had it, then sent out all they had, or if it
means that they have not yet received their supply. Is anyone else in the
same boat?

Dana John Hill
Gainesville, Florida

[wkasimer]

On Jan 15, 1:29 pm, "Dana John Hill" <d...@danajohnhill.com> wrote:

> My one concern is that Amazon lists it as "temporarily out of stock". I
> don't know if that means they had it, then sent out all they had, or if it
> means that they have not yet received their supply. Is anyone else in the
> same boat?

I also preordered at the lower price. The current $52 price is more
in line with other prices I've seen online at MDT and other Amazons.

But I think that US Amazon got the release date wrong, and hasn't yet
received their supply - it looks like this isn't being issued for
another couple of weeks in the UK, although it's been issued in
Germany already (at least according to the German Amazon site).

Bill

[R. Edwards]

I ordered a copy a copy from an Amazon Marketplace seller (in Germany) on October 7th and received it in early November, so I assume it's been available in Germany since that date.

Ray

[wkasimer]

On Jan 15, 2:41 pm, "R. Edwards" <opu...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I ordered a copy a copy from an Amazon Marketplace seller (in Germany) on October 7th and received it in early >November, so I assume it's been available in Germany since that date.

Ray -

Did you order this one...

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Ring-Nibelungen-Marek-Janowski/dp/B006XOBFJC

...or this one?:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Ring-Nibelungen-Richard/dp/B009EJSV2C

Dana and I are talking about the latter.

Bill

[randy...@gmail.com]

Is there any audible reason to prefer the newer relezse?

[R. Edwards]

I ordered the single box Sony edition.

Ray

[wkasimer]

On Jan 15, 4:45 pm, randy.l...@gmail.com wrote:

> Is there any audible reason to prefer the newer release?

I doubt it. I'm not buying it for sonic improvement (this recording
has always sounded fine to me). I'm buying it for the same reason
that other people are re-buying the Solti Ring in its deluxe format.
The major difference is...about $170.

Bill

[Dana John Hill]

"wkasimer" <wkas...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1d2a76b4-114a-4352...@v9g2000pbi.googlegroups.com...

While the single-box issue is certainly good value, if this latest one is
really as it appears in the photos-with separate textured boxes for each
opera and full libretti-it represents a genuine bargain. I already have
multiple copies of the Ring, including Solti, Barenboim, and Levine, but I
don't have this one, and if Sony is going to be so generous in their
presentation, how can I say no?

As of 17:30 EST, Amazon is still estimating that I'll receive my set
Thursday.

[Thornhill]

On Jan 15, 1:29 pm, "Dana John Hill" <d...@danajohnhill.com> wrote:

Amazon currently has it listed for $30, and marketplace sellers have
it for as low as $23.

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Der-Ring-Des-Nibelungen/dp/B006XOBFJC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1358342515&sr=8-1&keywords=Janowski+wagner

Then there is the new reissue that includes fancier packaging:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Der-Ring-Nibelungen-Richard/dp/B009EJSV2C/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1358342515&sr=8-4&keywords=Janowski+wagner

Given that it's a digital recording, I doubt any kind of remastering
was done to try and improve the sound.

[Peter H.]

I received an e-mail from Amazon this morning asking me to approve of the delay in shipment; otherwise my order would be cancelled, since it was not shipping when they said it would ship. By approving the wait, it gave them until Feb. 16to fulfill the order before the order would be cancelled.

[Dana John Hill]

"Peter H." <pbh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:390d0689-07cd-4c23...@googlegroups.com...

>I received an e-mail from Amazon this morning asking me to approve of the
>delay in shipment; otherwise my order would be >cancelled, since it was not
>shipping when they said it would ship. By approving the wait, it gave them
>until Feb. 16to fulfill the >order before the order would be cancelled.

Same here. Small price to pay for such a small price to pay.

[wkasimer]

On Jan 17, 9:16 am, "Peter H." <pbho...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I received an e-mail from Amazon this morning asking me to approve of the delay in shipment; otherwise my order would be cancelled, since it was not shipping when they said it >would ship.  By approving the wait, it gave them until Feb. 16to fulfill the order before the order would be cancelled.

I received an e-mail this morning, indicating that I should expect
this to be shipped soon, with an estimated arrival February 11-13.

Bill

[Dana John Hill]

"wkasimer" <wkas...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:f4031cba-69ae-4f73-ab4a-

>I received an e-mail this morning, indicating that I should expect
>this to be shipped soon, with an estimated arrival February 11-13.

Yes! Me, too. They're telling me 7 February (I still have a Prime membership
from when it was free for students).

I had been getting a little nervous about this. I noticed that they jacked
up the price by many percent.

[Peter H.]

I got an actual shipping notice late last night. I should receive mine tomorrow.

[Oscar]

No tracklistings within the libretto. How easy would that have been to
include, Hamburg-based Editorial Supervisor Jochen Rudelt of
texthouse? Isn't that your job? I also think Art Designer WLP Ltd.
chose the most inexpressive, cheap 'n cheesy-looking font, but
whatevs. It's the little things! http://tiny.cc/pbl4rw

<Tepper rant over>

[Steve de Mena]

At the beginning of each booklet it lists a page # for each track.

I don't have a problem with the type face used.

Is this the big blue box set with 4 individual boxes for each opera
(each which says "Club edition" on the back).
Eurodisc Sony 88725462232
$32.95 (!)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009EJSV2C/ref=ox_ya_os_product

Steve

[Mark S]

On Feb 7, 12:30 am, Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:
> On 2/6/13 11:52 PM, Oscar wrote:
>
> > No tracklistings within the libretto. How easy would that have been to
> > include, Hamburg-based Editorial Supervisor Jochen Rudelt of
> > texthouse? Isn't that your job? I also think Art Designer WLP Ltd.
> > chose the most inexpressive, cheap 'n cheesy-looking font, but

> > whatevs. It's the little things!http://tiny.cc/pbl4rw

>
> > <Tepper rant over>
>
> At the beginning of each booklet it lists a page # for each track.
>
> I don't have a problem with the type face used.
>
> Is this the big blue box set with 4 individual boxes for each opera
> (each which says "Club edition" on the back).
> Eurodisc Sony 88725462232
> $32.95 (!)http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009EJSV2C/ref=ox_ya_os_product
>
> Steve

My only question would be whether this set uses the 24-bit mastering
that was used in the Sony Masters version (which I purchased last
year).

[Steve de Mena]

It doesn't say. It does say it is a Soundstream Digital recording. I
am not sure what benefit a 24bit remaster would do. I'm not sure if
Soundstream in 1980 was 16 or 20 bit, but the CDs do have a 2012 date
on them and I would hope if they transferred them to 24bit/DSD (and it
was an improvement) that they would have used those tapes.

I would keep an eye on Amazon reviews, undoubtedly someone who owns or
has heard the various releases will comment.

The CDs themselves have the look of old Eurodisc LPs. Robert Russ is
listed as the reissue producer.

Steve


Steve

[randy...@gmail.com]

OK, below are the various CD versions I know of.
At which point can someone first-hand swear there is an audio improvement? And if yes, please characterize the improvement.

I, for one, give little if any credibility to labeling. I have no confidence in Sony's statement on the back of the 2012 reissue claiming it to be a 24bit remastering of the original. I have more than once heard first-hand testimony from former employees involved in Sony productions regarding labels on other Sony reissues, those testimonies being that the remastering claims were often absolutely false. with sony, I strictly let my ears (and the ears of listeners I trust) do the talking. Labels are worthless.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001IVA0Q4 (1989 , 14 CDs)

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00002621D (1997 , 14 CDs)

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00011MJV6 (2004 , white box , 14 CDs)

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B006XOBFJC (2012 , Sony Masters box , 14 CDs)

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B009EJSV2C (2013 , Separate boxes , 14 CDs)

[Mark S]

One review of the set at amazon says of the original recording, "The
sampling rate was not 41 KHz but rather 54 KHz (I believe)." Does
that mean anything?

I took a look at my Sony Masters version of this set. The back of the
box says: "This compilation (P) & (C) 2012." On the CD sleeves,
Rheingold carries a 1980 p date, Walküre 1981, Siegfried 1982, and
Gotterd 1983, while all the C-dates on the sleeves are (C) Sony Music
Entertainment.

The "(P)" ( which is called the "p date") signifies the copyright date
on the recording itself. As the outer box carries a 2012 p date,it
reflects that Sony applied for a new copyright on the 24-bit
remastering of the entire box.

[Thornhill]

Soundstream had a sampling rate of 50kHz. The Telarc Soundstream
recordings were 16-bit; I imagine this was the case here.

Anyway, despite what the packaging says, I doubt these recordings were
"remastered," and even if they are, I don't see how up-converting them
to 24bit to then bring them back down to 16-bit for CD would do
anything.

As for the higher sampling rate, the benefits would be more noticeable
if the recordings were released on a format that supports the rate,
such as SACD or Blu-ray.

I have the most recent budget release. The sound is ok -- gets better
in the later operas. Clearly closely mic'd, muffled at times. Brass is
also a bit shrill in places. Decca's digital recordings from that
period sound light years better -- most notably Dutoit's "Daphnis et
Chloé" from 1980. The bottom line is that mic placement and recording
venue is really more important than if it's 50kHz or 44.1kHz (I heard
an interesting interview with Dutoit about the Daphnis recording,
explaining how Decca spent weeks looking for the right church and then
the recording session took forever because of endless tinkering with
the mic's)

[Steve de Mena]

> Rheingold carries a 1980 p date, Walk�re 1981, Siegfried 1982, and

> Gotterd 1983, while all the C-dates on the sleeves are (C) Sony Music
> Entertainment.
>
> The "(P)" ( which is called the "p date") signifies the copyright date
> on the recording itself. As the outer box carries a 2012 p date,it
> reflects that Sony applied for a new copyright on the 24-bit
> remastering of the entire box.

My outer box has a (P) date of 2012 and (C) 2012.

Looking at one CD I see a (P) date of 1980 and (C) 2012.

Also the booklet covers are in a nice shade of blue with an
illustration (just like the individual opera boxes) and not the white
covered booklets seen in Amazon photos.

Steve

[Steve de Mena]

Sorry, the booklet covers are the same color as the boxes for each
opera (red/turquoise/brown/black). And they smell nice too!)

Steve

[Dana John Hill]

"Dana John Hill" <da...@danajohnhill.com> wrote in message
news:kd4765$q72$1...@usenet.osg.ufl.edu...

After a month-long wait, my copy of the Janowski Ring box finally arrived
yesterday evening. I eagerly opened the shipping box, played the "Guess How
Much I Paid for This" game with my wife (her guess was $85), and began
removing the cellophane. Then I saw that my copy was damaged - a victim of
an apparent fall or crushing. I'd be tempted to blame UPS, since I know
packages get jostled around all the time, but I get the feeling that Amazon
sent damaged stock. They are replacing it, of course, but I won't get it
until next week.

Strangely, the release date is now listed as February 12. The date had
initially been listed as some time in January, then when that date passed it
was just listed as unavailable. Somehow some of us got our copies this week.
Amazon wrote to tell me that they had gotten a few advance copies of the
set, but now have none. So, I wait.

First-world problems, of course.

[Dana John Hill]

After multiple delays, I finally have my copy of the Janowski Ring in its
new deluxe reissue. I ordered it when the price was still under $35, but
even at its current price it's a good deal. As someone else mentioned, the
boxes/booklets do look a bit different from the picture online, but the idea
is still the same: the four operas in seperate boxes inside a larger box
that holds them all. If you have the 1997 Solti Ring, it's just like that.
The discs are in paper sleeves with a track list on the back; the booklets
contain essays and photos, plus texts and translations.

I don't have these recordings in an earlier issue, so I cannot compare the
sound. But even if it isn't a remaster, Sony did a good job here. For less
than the price of a Das Rheingold, you get the whole Ring, presented very
well. It may not be the 2012 Solti Ring, but it costs a fraction of that.

[wkasimer]

On Feb 13, 2:45 pm, "Dana John Hill" <d...@danajohnhill.com> wrote:

> After multiple delays, I finally have my copy of the Janowski Ring in its
> new deluxe reissue.

Mine is still "in transit". I suspect that Nemo has slowed it down.

> I don't have these recordings in an earlier issue, so I cannot compare the
> sound. But even if it isn't a remaster, Sony did a good job here.

This recording has sounded fine since its first issue, around 1980.

> It may not be the 2012 Solti Ring, but it costs a fraction of that.

The Solti may have more historic importance, as the first complete
studio recording, with starrier names. But I think that only in
Gotterdammerung is the Solti clearly superior. I much prefer
Janowski's Rheingold and Siegfried. Walkure is more or less a toss-
up.

Bill

[wagnerfan]

I'll have to give the Siegfried another listen - I have a feeling
Altmeyer is better here than in the Gotterdammerung since the shorter
Siegfried Brunnhilde role also lies better for her voice (as with
Dernesch in the Karajan) and I'm a fan of Schreierrs Mime in the
Rheingold (I still far prefer the Solti Rheingold) Wagner fan

[Dana John Hill]

"wkasimer" <wkas...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:ecc1ba02-c6a9-4437-bb83->

>I much prefer Janowski's Rheingold and Siegfried. Walkure is more or less
>a toss-
>up.

I haven't had a chance to hear Janowski's cycle yet, but I'm curious to see
if I will share your opinion. I have such fond feelings for the Solti
Rheingold, not just for the performance but for the recording itself, that I
can hardly imagine another displacing it. That said, at this price, I
couldn't afford not to get it.

[wkasimer]

On Feb 13, 5:38 pm, wagnerfan <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:

> and I'm a fan of Schreierrs Mime in the Rheingold

Schreier sings Loge in Rheingold.

> (I still far prefer the Solti Rheingold)

For me, Solti's Rheingold is one of those "sacred cows" that doesn't
remotely live up to its reputation. The only memorable aspects are
Neidlinger's Alberich (which, of course, graces about ten other
recordings) and the sonics, which are still pretty impressive after
more than fifty years.

Bill

[wagnerfan]

Thats one of the problems I have with the Janowski Rheingold - the
sound has none of the impact of the Solti even though it was recorded
many years later. The sound on its own is very good indeed but really
for me doesn't have the punch and powerof the Solti - the scene
transitions which are so powerful in the Solti don't make nearly the
same impact in the Janowski (yes having the actual number of anvils
does make a difference). And I must say that I prefer Londons Wotan to
Adams - it may not be as fully formed interpretively as the Adam (I
don' think he had sung the role on stage) but the voice is much more
appropriateto the role than Adams dried out and wobbly tone. As for
Flagstad you may as well be complaining to me about Mom and apple pie
- from the time she opens her mouth with that gorgeous tone and
classic legato - this is the way a goddess should sound. I prefer
Wachter as Donner and that whole gathering of the clouds scene in
scene four has an impact the Janowski does not, As I said if we only
had the Janowski it would be fine and perhaps its because I imprinted
on the Solti, but I really prefer the older recording Wagner Fan

[wagnerfan]

Right you are about Schreier and he is very good Wagner fan

[wkasimer]

My copy of the deluxe edition. It is a thing of beauty, but as usual
with BMG, some antimusical idiot fucked it up.

WHAT ON EARTH IS THE DEAL WITH ALL OF THE UNNECESSARY BREAKS IN
ACTS?????

I don't have a previous incarnation handy, so maybe this is nothing
new, but c'mon. Act 3 of Walkure could easily have fit onto its own
disc, so that only Act 2 required a break. A quick look at the
timings of Siegfried indicates that Acts 1 and 2 are each under 80
minutes, and Act 3 is just a bit over 80 minutes, so the entire opera
could have fit onto three discs with optimal musical continuity. At
worst, only Act 3 needed to be split. As for Gotterdammerung Acts 2
and 3 are well under 80 minutes, so only the lengthy Prologue/Act 1
needed to be split.

This is RIDICULOUS. Deciding how to format operas on CD is not rocket
science. It's so basic that even the jokers at Universal and EMI have
gotten it right. And if this is the way that the operas were divided
previously, I really don't care. This is at least the FIFTH time this
set has been issued - has no one with an ounce of musical sensibility
bothered to check the timings?

Sheesh.

Bill

[Mark S]

Sounds like a case of "why bother" for a company squeezing blood out
of the turnip.

[Thornhill]

It's how it's always been -- likely evidence that they've never done
any remastering work since the first release.

Here's my theory: given that each disc tends to have fewer than 65
minutes of music, I'm thinking that the track order was done so that
the discs would match up with the original LP release, allowing RCA to
create a printed libretto that worked for both LP and CD issues? I
base this on the fact that most early opera releases on CD had the LP
and cassette tape side break listed in the libretto.

[Christopher Webber]

On 18/02/2013 05:32, Thornhill wrote:
> I'm thinking that the track order was done so that
> the discs would match up with the original LP release, allowing RCA to
> create a printed libretto that worked for both LP and CD issues?

To some extent I'm sure that's right: we can hear the original LP's
fade-in of sound at the particularly abrupt "side turn" going into the
second Seigfried CD.

Added to which, when the initial CD issue was made, I'd guess that 76'
and not 80' (or more nowadays) was recommended industry standard for
maximum length. Perhaps a commercial CD (rather than CD-R) technical
expert may be able to confirm this?

[wkasimer]

On Feb 18, 3:19 am, Christopher Webber <zarzu...@zarzuela.invalid.net>
wrote:

> Added to which, when the initial CD issue was made, I'd guess that 76'
> and not 80' (or more nowadays) was recommended industry standard for
> maximum length.

It might have been even 72'. But the original issue was actually
spread out over more discs - three for Rheingold, and, IIRC, five each
for Siegfried. The more compact version started with the first CD
reissue about a decade later.

Bill

[wkasimer]

On Feb 17, 8:20 pm, wkasimer <wkasi...@comcast.net> wrote:

> This is RIDICULOUS.  Deciding how to format operas on CD is not rocket
> science.  It's so basic that even the jokers at Universal and EMI have
> gotten it right.

Allow me to amend that. EMI fucked it up with the Haitink RING;
Siegfried could have comfortably fit onto three discs, one act per
disc. It's spread out over four, both on the original and the
reissue.

Bill

[Thornhill]

Based on an old NYTimes article I dug up, the '84 CD release was on 18
discs! I'm wondering if that was done to actually prevent breaks
between acts and scenes.

In 1989 the 14 disc version was released. I still think the strange
breaks could be related to the libreto for the LP version. At least,
it clearly looks like they had some reason for trying to keep each
disc under 65 minutes.

[wagnerfan]

How in the world could a CD issue of the Ring take 18 CDs???? You
would need 5 CDs for the last three each and three for Rheingold -
what a waste. Wagner fan

[Thornhill]

That's exactly what they did. And except for Gotterdammerung, the
number of discs mirrors the number of LPs.

From the NYTimes in 1984 (John Rockwell):

"But Eurodisc only provided index points, not track markings, meaning
that those with CD players unequipped with index cueing have no way to
leap about within a CD except with fast-forward or reverse. More
crucially, the company has failed to be as imaginative or efficient as
possible, logistically speaking. One does save one disk from the six-
disk LP ''Gotterdammerung'' to its five-disk CD equivalent. But each
of these operas could have been released using one less CD, and if the
amount of music per CD could be stretched to 80 minutes for the third
act, it might have been possible to present ''Siegfried'' on only
three CD's. Perhaps one day Eurodisc will re-release this ''Ring'' on
14 CD's. But don't hold your breath."

Pretty amusing that 30 years later this issue has yet to be fully
fixed.

[wanwan]

Back in 84, there would undoubtedly be players that would have had a
hard time playing back 80 minute discs. Made sense back then to have
the shorter discs. Also, It's a shame that indexing never was promoted
like in the early Sony decks. Score study would be much easier today
if it had lasted.

-------------------
Eric

[wkasimer]

On Feb 18, 9:45 am, Thornhill <seth.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In 1989 the 14 disc version was released. I still think the strange
> breaks could be related to the libreto for the LP version.

If I recall correctly, the 14 disc version was never issued on LP;
only the original was issued on both CD and LP.

BTW, I just took a look at a recent reissue of this set, from 2003:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Der-Ring-Nibelungen-Box/dp/B00011MJV6

No libretto was included in this set, but it features the same asinine
breaks as the current release.

Bill

[Mark S]

On Feb 18, 10:56 pm, wanwan <chibikon...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's a shame that indexing never was promoted
> like in the early Sony decks. Score study would be much easier today
> if it had lasted.

CD companies can still index their discs, but which players will read
the index points?

Index points were a great idea for classical music - for instance,
make each movement of a symphony a track, then use index points to
denote/access the development, recapitulation etc within each
movement. The early Telarc CDs were heavily indexed.

But pop music doesn't lend itself to such indexing. Most pop tracks
run 3-4 minutes, tops. And they're repetitive at that. So why bother
indexing? Pop music drives what the rest of the music industry adopts
as industry standards. So if pop CDs aren't being indexed, why make CD
players that can read index points? To make the classical geeks happy?
No way!

[Thornhill]

Wasn't the index feature the result of there being issues with gapless
track breaks/playback in the early days of CDs (each track is a
separate data file)? At least, of all of the early CDs I own, pieces
like the Rite of Spring, Alpensinfonie, operas, etc. were always
single tracks, while symphonies were multiple.

[Mark S]

I wouldn't know.

Hard to be clear minded 30 years down the road, but I seem to recall
that it varied from company to company. Some had tracks and some had
index points. I don't recall reading that there was some technical
reason for, say, making Dutoit's "Daphnis" or Karajan's "Alpine" a
single track. I always assumed it was the record company doing
something stupid.

[wade]

I dont recall the original Dutoit Daphnis ever had index points. I believe the original Karajan Alpine had tracks.

[Thornhill]

Was it truly the first CD release? All the labels went back in the
late 80s to reissue their single track CDs.

For example, I'm fairly certain that Abbado's LSO "Pictures" (DG) that
came out on CD in 1983 has 1 track with index timings (incidentally, I
know for a fact that Solti's "Pictures" on London from the same year
was also 1 track but had no index timings).

Anyway, I did a bunch of searching on Proquest and could not find any
articles that explained what the whole issue was with the single
tracks and index timings, except there were complaints about works
like "Pictures" being on a single track despite the promises of the
format having multiple tracks to provide instant access to a specific
point.

Amusingly, many music critics were writing non-stop about how CD
players had the ability to program the playback of the track order,
going on about how amazing it is that now Handel's "Water Music," for
instance, can be played in any order. Talk about a feature I think I
used may once.

[wade]

after the glowing reviews in the early Gramophone issues after the introduction of CDs, it was one of the first ones I bought. If there were indexes, they werent listed on the back cover, check out the pics on Amazon of the original issue.

[randy...@gmail.com]

The Dutoit Daphnis had no index point or tracks.
The best use of indexing I ever saw was the original DG Abbado Daphnis. There were several dozen indexes. Track points were only used where there was a clear stopping point in the music. But what made it fabulous was an elaborate essay in the booklet by which a person could follow the story in synch with the music. The essay told you what was happening on stage in the ballet at every one of the scores and scores of index points.

[Mark S]

On Feb 19, 10:50 am, wade <wadewo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I dont recall the original Dutoit Daphnis ever had index points.  I believe the original Karajan Alpine had tracks.

The first CD issue of the Karajan Alpine was a single track with no
indexes, IIRC.

[Steve de Mena]

On 2/19/13 8:21 AM, Thornhill wrote:
> On Feb 19, 10:55 am, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 18, 10:56 pm, wanwan <chibikon...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It's a shame that indexing never was promoted
>>> like in the early Sony decks. Score study would be much easier today
>>> if it had lasted.
>>
>> CD companies can still index their discs, but which players will read
>> the index points?
>>
>> Index points were a great idea for classical music - for instance,
>> make each movement of a symphony a track, then use index points to
>> denote/access the development, recapitulation etc within each
>> movement. The early Telarc CDs were heavily indexed.
>>
>> But pop music doesn't lend itself to such indexing. Most pop tracks
>> run 3-4 minutes, tops. And they're repetitive at that. So why bother
>> indexing? Pop music drives what the rest of the music industry adopts
>> as industry standards. So if pop CDs aren't being indexed, why make CD
>> players that can read index points? To make the classical geeks happy?
>> No way!
>
> Wasn't the index feature the result of there being issues with gapless
> track breaks/playback in the early days of CDs (each track is a
> separate data file)?

No. Maybe it was a lack of certain mastering software functionality,
expertise, haste to release as many titles as possible quickly, or
laziness resulted in all those single track longer works you're
referring to. Like the Sony CDs where the "booklet" was just the same
content as the LP back cover but folded in fourths. :)

Steve

[Thornhill]

Early consumer CD-ROM's could not burn gapless audio tracks -- it had
something convoluted to do with how the table of contents was written
after each track was burned, or something like that. I remember it
being a big deal when you could burn gapless in the 1990s. I suspect
there was a similar issue at first with commercially produced audio
CDs.

And given how tracks were a major selling point of the format, it
makes no sense that they just ditched this feature at first due to
laziness or haste when trying to promote the format in it's early
days.

I think what's more likely, is that it never occurred to the engineers
developing the Compact Disc that the track breaks needed to be
gapless, and the non-engineers just assumed it would be (IIRC, iTunes
was a mess with gapless at first). Once the problem was recognized,
rather than delay the debut of the CD, they just went with single
tracks.

[Dana John Hill]

<randy...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a90c19e-f69e-46ba...@googlegroups.com...

I think they reproduced this in the Trio reissue.

[Dana John Hill]

"Steve de Mena" <st...@demena.com> wrote in message
news:yvWdnbISr_DdRr7M...@giganews.com...

> No. Maybe it was a lack of certain mastering software functionality,
> expertise, haste to release as many titles as possible quickly, or
> laziness resulted in all those single track longer works you're referring
> to. Like the Sony CDs where the "booklet" was just the same content as the
> LP back cover but folded in fourths. :)
>

Gah! I always hated that! I work at a radio station, and in our record
library, those early CBS CDs invariably have torn up booklets from former
DJs' hasty attempts at removing folded-over booklets from jewel cases.

[Mark S]

On Feb 19, 12:06 pm, Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:
> Like the Sony CDs where the "booklet" was just the same
> content as the LP back cover but folded in fourths.  :)

That was a holdover from the old days when designs were done in
mechanicals that were shot on film for reproduction. It was faster to
take a picture of the LP jacket, then shrink it down into a size that
could be folded into a jewel case.

The better option was to have someone key in the text (liner notes) to
a word processing program which would allow the designer to manipulate
the text however they wished. But that cost time and money.

I remember when PolyGram made the effort to get all of their opera
libretti into digital form. It was a messy process that caused a few
product delays.

[Oscar]

On Feb 19, 12:06 pm, Steve de Mena wrote:
>
> > Wasn't the index feature the result of there being issues with gapless
> > track breaks/playback in the early days of CDs (each track is a
> > separate data file)?
>
> No. Maybe it was a lack of certain mastering software functionality,
> expertise, haste to release as many titles as possible quickly, or
> laziness resulted in all those single track longer works you're
> referring to. Like the Sony CDs where the "booklet" was just the same
> content as the LP back cover but folded in fourths.  :)

First US edition of Pink Floyd Wish You Were Here with disc
Manufactured in Japan for USA, and four-panel fold-out booklet, was
two tracks with index points, à la LP program. Having heard it, I
think it was sourced from an LP cutting master, to boot.

[Steve de Mena]

On 2/19/13 11:20 AM, Thornhill wrote:

>> I dont recall the original Dutoit Daphnis ever had index points. I believe the original Karajan Alpine had tracks.
>
> Was it truly the first CD release? All the labels went back in the
> late 80s to reissue their single track CDs.
>
> For example, I'm fairly certain that Abbado's LSO "Pictures" (DG) that
> came out on CD in 1983

No, I believe my copy of that Abbado Pictures is the initial release
and it has tracks for each section.

I can't seem to find my initial copy of the Strauss Alpensinfonie.

Steve

[Steve de Mena]

This picture of the back of the CD liner (of the initial non "Karajan
Gold" issue) doesn't indicate any tracks.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/616lNZKDkaL.jpg

Steve

[Tassilo]

I pre-ordered the full score of Elliott Carter's Symphonia from Amazon and eventually got it a couple of months after the originally projected release date. I can only imagine that the publisher supplied it later than promised.

-dg


On Tuesday, January 15, 2013 1:29:25 PM UTC-5, Dana John Hill wrote:
> A week or so ago I placed a pre-order for the just-released (15 January)
>
> Sony reissue of Janowski's Ring. It was $32 when I placed my order, and I
>
> see the price is now $52. I don't know if this is a temporary increase, but
>
> given the presentation-which appears similar to the late-1990s reissue of
>
> the Solti Ring-it's probably more than fair.
>
>
>
> My one concern is that Amazon lists it as "temporarily out of stock". I
>
> don't know if that means they had it, then sent out all they had, or if it
>
> means that they have not yet received their supply. Is anyone else in the
>
> same boat?

[Tassilo]

The tracking points in the Juilliard Quartet's Sony recording of Carter's first four quartets (+ the Duo for violin and piano) were chosen by the composer, who was present at the recording sessions.

-dg

[arel64]

The four Ring operas were released separately in the SONY CLASSICAL OPERA series.

Amazon has two almost identical pictures of the back covers of both Walkure and Siegfried:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01AMWKIB6
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01AMWKK3M
where one reads "ADD (sic!) Stereo" and the another one "ADD (sic!) Digitally mastered using 24bit/96kHz technology".

Rheingold and Gotterdammerung have no such indications:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01H0P5Q9W
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GW63PHK

Incidentally, the 2012 Masters box set also featured the 24bit logo:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006XOBFJC

but there was no such information in the 2013 Deluxe edition:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009EJSV2C
which was described here as Soundstream Digital recording.

The same old track listings with unnecessary breaks.

[vmartell]

On Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 2:08:04 PM UTC-8, wkasimer wrote:
> On Jan 15, 4:45 pm, randy.l...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Is there any audible reason to prefer the newer release?
>
> I doubt it. I'm not buying it for sonic improvement (this recording
> has always sounded fine to me). I'm buying it for the same reason
> that other people are re-buying the Solti Ring in its deluxe format.
> The major difference is...about $170.
>
> Bill

I do suspect that the single budget box and the deluxe anniversary edition are the same master - the price for the deluxe edition looks like a very speculative price set by this vendor - wonder how long is it gonna take to sell - maybe never. Prbly the item is out of print - then again, I bought it used for $70, not $300.

Again, I wonder if it will sell...

v

[Randy Lane]

Wow.
I bought the deluxe anniversary edition new for $24.

[AcousticLevitation.org]

On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 4:11:17 PM UTC-5, Randy Lane wrote:
> On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 12:54:24 PM UTC-7, vmartell wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 2:08:04 PM UTC-8, wkasimer wrote:
> > > On Jan 15, 4:45 pm, randy.l...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > Is there any audible reason to prefer the newer release?
> > >
> > > I doubt it. I'm not buying it for sonic improvement (this recording
> > > has always sounded fine to me). I'm buying it for the same reason
> > > that other people are re-buying the Solti Ring in its deluxe format.
> > > The major difference is...about $170.
> > >
> > > Bill
> >

> > I do suspect that the single budget box and the deluxe anniversary edition are the same master....

>
> Wow.
> I bought the deluxe anniversary edition new for $24.

That's what I paid for the blue-and-gold box edition, Randy. And each of the four operas within comes with a full German/English/French libretto as well. I paid $20.86 incl. the $4 postage.
https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Ring-Nibelungen-Richard/dp/B009EJSV2C/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1511841215&sr=1-4&keywords=Janowski+wagner+box

[meyers...@gmail.com]

Yes a nice replica of the original LPs minus the beautiful illustrations

[Alan Dawes]

In article <644cd484-2d27-4a37...@googlegroups.com>,

I notice that the first "review" starts with "This is a fabulous bargain,"
which is from 2013 and refers to the original cheap box set - I wonder why
they chose that as the first "review"? :-)

As I'm in England, I looked on the amazon uk site
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Ring-Nibelungen-Richard/dp/B009EJSV2C/
where it costs 160.49 ukpounds which doesn't include the delivey charge
however it is not from amazon but from e-katastima (Greek Entertainment)
based in Athens. It even has the cheek to advertise as "Cyber monday SALE"
at the top of the page.

Further down the page is a link to the previous box set containing exactly
the same CDs, which amazon uk has in stock, with free delivery for 24.99
UK pounds! - One must assume that the new box is gold plated and encrusted
with jewels to account for the price or they just think the customers are
stupid.

If some work had been done on the recordings and were now in higher
quality or surround sound eg on SACD and more convenient format like
blu-ray then I might have considered the new box.

Alan

--
alan....@argonet.co.uk
alan....@riscos.org
Using an ARMX6

[wkasimer]

On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 2:54:24 PM UTC-5, vmartell wrote:

> I do suspect that the single budget box and the deluxe anniversary edition are the same master

One of the reviewers of the deluxe set (Mark Stenroos, who used to be a contributor here, I believe) writes that the more recent budget edition sounds different, and better, but he does qualify this impression with the word "slightly".

I have the deluxe edition (I paid $33, and apparently overpaid...), and I'm not buying this set again until BMG corrects all of those musically damaging and entirely unnecessary intra-act breaks.

[Randy Lane]

Anyone on RMCR un-thrifty enough to have plunged in an bought all or any of the Janowski PentaTone Wagner recordings? Recommend anything about them?

[wkasimer]

On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 9:31:33 AM UTC-5, Randy Lane wrote:

> Anyone on RMCR un-thrifty enough to have plunged in an bought all or any of the Janowski PentaTone Wagner recordings? Recommend anything about them?

I bought the Siegfried, and heard the broadcasts of the performances on which the rest were based.

On the positive side of the ledger - the sonics, the orchestral work, and Janowski's conducting, which has been pretty consistent over the years. And I assume that Pentatone got the various acts to fit on their own discs when possible.

On the negative side - most of the singing. There are some good performances in some lesser roles, but in the major roles - Siegfried, Brunnhilde, Wotan - the singing varies from barely adequate to virtually unlistenable.