Rigoletto: Bonynge or Giulini?
MIFrost
(Sutherland, Pavarotti and Milnes) or Giulini (Cotrubas, Domingo and
Cappuccilli). I'm leaning toward the latter, for no real reason.
MIFrost
Matthew B. Tepper
@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com:
> A show of hands please: Which *stereo* Rigoletto do you prefer, Bonynge
> (Sutherland, Pavarotti and Milnes) or Giulini (Cotrubas, Domingo and
> Cappuccilli). I'm leaning toward the latter, for no real reason.
I like 'em both, but I'd lean toward the former.
Somewhere, somehow, you must at least hear one of the Warren performances.
--
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Simon Roberts
"MIFrost" <sfr...@nycap.rr.com> wrote in message
news:zI7r8.22203$GF1.3...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
At the risk of seeming hopelessly uncooperative, why must it be one of
those two? There are other stereo Rigolettos that I prefer to either,
including Kubelik/DG (and, if you want Sutherland, her earlier
recording).
Simon
MIFrost
Simon Roberts <sd...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:a8j3b8$557$1...@netnews.upenn.edu...
Actually, it's moot now. BMG Club has the Bonynge and the Giulini is
reasonably priced at around $18 on several websites. Both are praised in
several publications so I assumed they'd both be a safe bet. However, BMG
just e-mailed me a 70%-off promo and I took the Bonynge for $16 including
the S&H&tax. I've also been drooling over their Aida/Muti but apparently
it's not included in the *everything* is 70%-off.
MIFrost
Todd Kay
That's approximately what I was going to say (Kubelik's has the least wrong
with it of any stereo one I've heard, and would be my recommendation), but if I
*am* limited to those two choices, I'll take Giulini. His isn't the ideal way
I'd want to hear it conducted, but the VPO has a nice dark, rich sound here,
and occasionally his contemplative approach pays off as an interesting
alternative (as with his TROVATORE of a few years later). And I'm a fan of all
five of the principal singers (I'm counting Ghiaurov and Obraztsova, as the
killers) to some extent, and they're all in reasonably good form. And it's
cheap on Originals now.
========Todd Kay========
David7Gable
>(Sutherland, Pavarotti and Milnes) or Giulini (Cotrubas, Domingo and
>Cappuccilli).
There are other stereo Rigoletto recordings, including Kubelik. Unfortunately,
I am constitutionally incapable of raising my hand for either of the two you
list. I don't like the contributions of either conductor at all. Of the six
principal singers, I find Pavarotti most impressive and indeed stunning.
Sutherland bores me to tears and Cappuccilli strikes me as a mediocrity. You
can't be enticed into hearing one of the Warren performances?
-david gable
Joseph Vitale
I have both sets and can tell you either would be a fine investment. However
if you can only get one definitely go for the Guilini. It really is a
spectacular performance. Cappuccilli's Rigoletto is my second favorite only to
Tito Gobbi's timeless characterization on the legendary Callas/EMI recording.
I also find the Giulini better conceptualized as a whole than Bonynge. The DG
set has a sweep and grandeur that is somewhat lacking in the Decca
recording…however well sung. All this wrapped in a very atmospheric,
state-of-the-art, 1979 analogue sound. (Well transferred and documented in
DG's "Originals" series.)
JV
David7Gable
>with it of any stereo one I've heard, and would be my recommendation)
But this is to damn with faint praise. The most problematic aspect ot the
Kubelik Rigoletto is that Fi-Di did not have an authentic Verdi baritone and is
not exactly an idiomatic choice for the title role, unlike Gobbi, Warren, and
even lesser--musically, although not vocally--lights like Merrill and Milnes.
But on its own terms, Fi-Di's Rigoletto is reasonably unmannered. In fact he
turns in a remarkably committed performance. Scotto, Bergonzi, and Kubelik are
beyond criticism in my book--unless you happen not to like Scotto's voice.
My favorite Rigoletto overall remains the Cellini recording with Berger,
Merriman, Peerce, Warren, and Tajo. My favorite Gilda is still Gueden.
-david gable
Stephen W. Worth
> A show of hands please: Which *stereo* Rigoletto do you prefer, Bonynge
> (Sutherland, Pavarotti and Milnes) or Giulini (Cotrubas, Domingo and
> Cappuccilli).
I would choose Boynage because Pavarotti is perfectly suited for
this role, and Sutherland is better than Cotrubas.
See ya
Steve
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MIFrost
I'm listening now to a borrowed library copy with Perlea & Merrill as
Rigoletto. I find this work truly magical. Most reference books praise
Bonynge, Kubelik and Serafin. I expect to get Serafin at some point but
would like to hear a more modern sound first. But the Kubelik seems
unavailable on any of the websites I've tried. Do you know where I can get
it? The criticism on the Giulini set (which I haven't heard) is that he
smothers the singers in a blanket of Strauss-like velvetty orchestral
playing, overshadowing them.
So, Kubelik, Cellini and Serafin are next on my to-get list?
MIFrost
The Melsons
up the Solti I must put in a good word for it. The usual criticism of
this set is that Solti's conducting is too hard-driven, but it is also
quite tender when it needs to be - "Caro Nome," for instance.
Sometimes the drama demands Solti's energy - I love the charge he puts
into Monterone's curse.
Is there a lovelier Gilda on record than Anna Moffo in this recording?
The young Alfredo Kraus is ardent yet elegant, and Merrill pours out
lots of rich tone, even if he lacks Gobbi's psychological insights or
Warren's raw power.
This may not be the perfect Rigoletto, but it has lots going for it
and can't be ignored in the list of worthwhile stereo Rigoletti.
Mark Melson
On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 02:10:39 GMT, "MIFrost" <sfr...@nycap.rr.com>
wrote:
Simon Roberts
"The Melsons" <mmelson4**NOSPAM**@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3cadabd5....@netnews.attbi.com...
> I was going to stay out of this one, but since nobody else has brought
> up the Solti I must put in a good word for it. The usual criticism of
> this set is that Solti's conducting is too hard-driven, but it is also
> quite tender when it needs to be - "Caro Nome," for instance.
> Sometimes the drama demands Solti's energy - I love the charge he puts
> into Monterone's curse.
>
> Is there a lovelier Gilda on record than Anna Moffo in this recording?
> The young Alfredo Kraus is ardent yet elegant, and Merrill pours out
> lots of rich tone, even if he lacks Gobbi's psychological insights or
> Warren's raw power.
>
> This may not be the perfect Rigoletto, but it has lots going for it
> and can't be ignored in the list of worthwhile stereo Rigoletti.
Indeed not. I don't usually like Moffo much, but I do here.
Simon
Simon Roberts
> I'm listening now to a borrowed library copy with Perlea & Merrill as
> Rigoletto. I find this work truly magical. Most reference books praise
> Bonynge, Kubelik and Serafin. I expect to get Serafin at some point
but
> would like to hear a more modern sound first. But the Kubelik seems
> unavailable on any of the websites I've tried.
You evidently haven't tried MDT.... They'll send it to you for not
much more than $20.
Simon
Alan Cooper
news:20020404223126...@mb-cq.aol.com...
> My favorite Rigoletto overall remains the Cellini recording with Berger,
> Merriman, Peerce, Warren, and Tajo. My favorite Gilda is still Gueden.
The Cellini is a wonderful recording, although the Warren performance I most
enjoy is the 1945 Met broadcast on Naxos with Bjoerling and Sayao, conducted
by Sodero. Among stereo recordings, I guess you still haven't heard the
Cetra conducted by Gavazzeni, w/Scotto, Bastianini, Kraus, Vinco, and
Cossotto. It doesn't seem to have appeared on CD, but it's a fine
performance.
AC
David7Gable
>So, Kubelik, Cellini and Serafin are next on my to-get list?
Great list! Too bad there's not a Bjoerling Duke in there somewhere. He's the
best thing in the Merrill/Perlea set and is also the Duke in a marvelous Naxos
transfer of a live Met Rigoletto from the 40's with Warren.
I'm a great admirer of Serafin, but his later recordings are a little less
animated than one might hope, including unfortunately even the EMI Rigoletto.
Recorded ten years earlier it would have knocked your socks off, but it's still
distinctively shaped. And of course you get Callas, di Stefano, and Gobbi.
Unfortunately, I can even kvetch a bit about di Stefano. His singing was
entirely fresh for less than the first decade of his career, and there are
some effortful moments in his EMI Duke, although he is still in characteristic
form.
-david gable
David7Gable
Yes. Berger and Gueden for starters. I like Moffo and her voice, but I still
don't think she's in a league with these Gilda's. I even prefer Scotto, but
it's hard to argue that on the grounds of sheer voice.
My main objection to the Solti Rigoletto, though, is Solti. He puts a lot of
muscle and energy into, as you say, but I don't hear any distinctive shaping
anywhere, and certainly not in the slow lyric movements.
-david gable
The Melsons
Berger-Peerce-Warren Cellini. Berger sounds remarkable for her age,
but she doesn't sound Gilda's age. Moffo, to my ears, does. She fits
this role in a way she doesn't fit Butterfly, to pick one instance.
Mark Melson
Simon Roberts
"Alan Cooper" <amco...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:a8l80a$gdn$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
> Among stereo recordings, I guess you still haven't heard the
> Cetra conducted by Gavazzeni, w/Scotto, Bastianini, Kraus, Vinco, and
> Cossotto. It doesn't seem to have appeared on CD, but it's a fine
> performance.
It has, at least twice - I have it on a French label named Carrere, with
a 1989 reissue date. It's also been reissued more recently but doesn't
seem to have received regular U.S. distribution. Here, thanks to the
miracle that is Google, is a review of the latter:
http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2001/Aug01/VerdiRigoletto.htm
amazon.de has it for 20 Euros; presumably other European (and British?)
suppliers can provide it.
Simon
Matthew B. Tepper
There's also a 1942 New Orleans performance on VAIA with Warren, Gueden,
and Treigle, but unfortunately with Eugene Conley. Conductor Walter
Herbert is no Cellini. Talk about faint praise.
David7Gable
>Berger-Peerce-Warren Cellini. Berger sounds remarkable for her age,
>but she doesn't sound Gilda's age
Berger sounds as if she's about 15! Or so it seems to me. And I am very far
from being the only person who thinks so. Whenever I play snippets of Berger's
Gilda for people who have never heard Berger's voice, they're always surprised
that she's in her 50's and not 20 years old. If I recall, it even put Simon
off that she sounds so young when he first heard this recording. I've never
heard a singer of Berger's age at the time of the Rigoletto recording or even a
quarter century younger than Berger whose voice was so unblemished by age. Her
production is extraordinarily pure and steady.
>[Moffo] fits this role [Gilda] in a way she doesn't fit Butterfly, to pick one
instance.
Of course. Not only was Moffo in her prime when she recorded Rigoletto:
Moffo's voice is more or less exactly the right weight for the role and she has
the agility for it. Butterfly was written for a somewhat heavier voice and
must contend with some of Puccini's thickest orchestration.
-david gable
David7Gable
>Cetra conducted by Gavazzeni, w/Scotto, Bastianini, Kraus, Vinco, and
>Cossotto. It doesn't seem to have appeared on CD,
Actually, it finally has. I heard this a long time ago and would have to hear
it again before I expressed an opinion. I can only say that on paper it looks
very promising. Some reviews of it were posted here at rmcr a while back.
>The Cellini is a wonderful recording, although the Warren performance I most
>enjoy is the 1945 Met broadcast on Naxos with Bjoerling and Sayao, conducted
>by Sodero.
I have it. And I admire all three principals. But then I admire Berger and
Peerce, too. What gives the Cellini set the edge for me is Cellini. Has
anybody heard the live Rigoletto with Gueden and Warren?
-david gable
David7Gable
>and Treigle, but unfortunately with Eugene Conley. Conductor Walter
>Herbert is no Cellini.
Presumably you mean 1952. Sounds like you've heard this. Are Gueden and
Warren, at least, "on"? It could easily have been Cellini conducting, too. Too
bad it's not. He did conduct for the New Orleans opera.
-david gable
Matthew B. Tepper
news:20020406103146...@mb-mf.aol.com:
>> I guess you still haven't heard the Cetra conducted by Gavazzeni,
>> w/Scotto, Bastianini, Kraus, Vinco, and Cossotto. It doesn't seem to
>> have appeared on CD,
>
> Actually, it finally has. I heard this a long time ago and would have
> to hear it again before I expressed an opinion. I can only say that
> on paper it looks very promising. Some reviews of it were posted here
> at rmcr a while back.
I just got it as part of my large MDT order and will report on it when
I've had the chance to hear it.
>>The Cellini is a wonderful recording, although the Warren performance
>>I most enjoy is the 1945 Met broadcast on Naxos with Bjoerling and
>>Sayao, conducted by Sodero.
>
> I have it. And I admire all three principals. But then I admire
> Berger and Peerce, too. What gives the Cellini set the edge for me is
> Cellini. Has anybody heard the live Rigoletto with Gueden and Warren?
I was just mentioning it yesterday. They are wonderful, but Conley is
Conley, orchestra play like pig, and Walter Herbert is no Cellini.
Matthew B. Tepper
news:20020406103647...@mb-mf.aol.com:
You're right, April 1952, exact date unspecified on the VAIA release,
which makes any time this month the "right" time to hear it.
Stevevasta
>*am* limited to those two choices, I'll take Giulini. His isn't the ideal way
>I'd want to hear it conducted, but the VPO has a nice dark, rich sound here
I must say, I don't like the way the VPO sounds, and not because of them,
either - this recording has always struck me as sounding terribly artificial.
>And I'm a fan of
>all
>five of the principal singers
It doesn't help that I absolutely reviled Cotrubas. The woman had a lousy
technique - breathy in the middle, squeezed at the top, nonexistent at the
bottom - and couldn't manage coloratura at all, which makes "Caro nome" rather
a trial.
That said, I don't think the Sutherland/Bonynge sounds as good on CD as it did
on LP - somehow, the CD processing shows up the microphone/mix tricks, so that
Tourangeau sounds raspy and distanced while Pavarotti is insistently close up,
for example.
SFV