Ormandy stereo boxes to come from Sony

[vhorowitz]

Nothing official, but Dave Hurwitz (in his video on the new Klemperer 95 cd set) mentions that he’s been told there WILL be big Sony boxes collecting the Ormandy stereo recordings (at least the Columbia ones, no word on the later RCA stereos), which will most likely be in 2 boxes.

[Richard Kaplan]

On Thursday, July 6, 2023 at 9:10:00 AM UTC-5, vhorowitz wrote:
> Nothing official, but Dave Hurwitz (in his video on the new Klemperer 95 cd set) mentions that he’s been told there WILL be big Sony boxes collecting the Ormandy stereo recordings (at least the Columbia ones, no word on the later RCA stereos), which will most likely be in 2 boxes.

That's great news. In "original jackets" format, Ormandy's stereo Columbias will take about 200 discs, so two boxes is not a surprise.

[Pluted Pup]

On Thu, 06 Jul 2023 07:09:57 -0700, vhorowitz wrote:

> Nothing official, but Dave Hurwitz (in his video on the new Klemperer 95 cd set) mentions that he愀 been told there WILL be big Sony boxes collecting the Ormandy stereo recordings (at least the Columbia ones, no word on the later RCA stereos), which will most likely be in 2 boxes.

How complete were the Klemperer boxes that came out
cheaply on EMI several years ago? Will the new 95
CD Klemperer set have much that was not
included in those smaller boxes?

[LarryLap]

Since the Tchaikovsky, Sibelius and 20th Century boxes of Ormandy material already issued by Sony contain an abundance of recordings originally released on RCA, I would be surprised if the mega-boxes excluded them.

Larry Lapidus

[Gerard]

Op vrijdag 7 juli 2023 om 00:28:44 UTC+2 schreef Pluted Pup:

>
> How complete were the Klemperer boxes that came out
> cheaply on EMI several years ago? Will the new 95
> CD Klemperer set have much that was not
> included in those smaller boxes?

AFAIK there have been 3 Klemperer "editions" on CD before (including the boxes you mentioned), plus some separate releases like a box with the Beethoven symphonies and piano concertos (with Barenboim). So I suppose that everyone who is interested in Klemperer's recordings has all of it already at least once, and some recordings even twice (because of so-called "new remasterings").
Is there any market for new Klemperer boxes again?

[vhorowitz]

They are not “so-called new remasterings”, they ARE newly mastered. Whether you think this is unimportant, or some marketing schtick, doesn’t change that fact. The Barbirolli set was also done by the same team. Some of it was not so different than previous issues, but much of it was a definite improvement.

The Parlophone 78rpm recordings in this set were not previously reissued by EMI or Warner. There are several discs of Klemperer’s compositions that have not been previously issued. I think there’s an Cherubini Anacreaon Ov that was never issued. Also, a new audio documentary. No, not a ton of new stuff, but a good deal of it was getting long in the tooth as far as transfers go, going back about 30 years. If they do a similar Beecham set, I’m not going to complain about duplicating cds from the rather spotty coverage he’s had.

As to whether there’s a market, I’m consistently told that Klemperer still sells well, more so than other “historical” conductors in the catalog. How that translates to a 95 cd doorstopper I don’t know, but I don’t begrudge them having at it.

[vhorowitz]

I hope you’re right, but aside from those smaller boxes that mix Columbia and RCA originals, have any of these larger mega boxes mixed the 2 labels? There IS the Raymond Lewenthal “Complete RCA and Columbia Album Collection” among the medium sized ones. In Ormandy’s case they’ve already separated out the Minneapolis RCAs, but of course, they were not stereo.

[Andy Evans]

Just a general question, but do you guys actually listen to a whole box of 60 discs or whatever?

I have the Stravinsky box but I still haven't listened to around a quarter of it.

[vhorowitz]

On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 9:08:53 AM UTC-4, Andy Evans wrote:
> Just a general question, but do you guys actually listen to a whole box of 60 discs or whatever?
>
> I have the Stravinsky box but I still haven't listened to around a quarter of it.

Strangely, I seem to listen MORE to these boxes than most of the singles in my collection these days. Usually I paste a track list into notes and keep track of my progress, because I don’t always trust my 61 yr old brain cells to remember it all.

[Owen Hartnett]

With all these massive, career spanning CD box set dumps, I keep
waiting for K-Tel records to offer "Every classical CD that's ever been
made!"

But when I think about it, there are some people on this group that
have it already.

rec.music.classical.recordings.obsession

-Owen

[Gerard]

Op vrijdag 7 juli 2023 om 14:54:00 UTC+2 schreef vhorowitz:

> On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 5:31:10 AM UTC-4, Gerard wrote:
> > Op vrijdag 7 juli 2023 om 00:28:44 UTC+2 schreef Pluted Pup:
> > >
> > > How complete were the Klemperer boxes that came out
> > > cheaply on EMI several years ago? Will the new 95
> > > CD Klemperer set have much that was not
> > > included in those smaller boxes?
> > AFAIK there have been 3 Klemperer "editions" on CD before (including the boxes you mentioned), plus some separate releases like a box with the Beethoven symphonies and piano concertos (with Barenboim). So I suppose that everyone who is interested in Klemperer's recordings has all of it already at least once, and some recordings even twice (because of so-called "new remasterings").
> > Is there any market for new Klemperer boxes again?
> They are not “so-called new remasterings”, they ARE newly mastered.

I have read that this new box is newly remastered. But does this apply to ALL previous releases? Have the Klemperer recordings been rereremastered 4 times now? And did that bring any bettered sound any time?

[vhorowitz]

Probably worse sound in the case of the series of the 15 or so year old “ART” remasterings, which were badly de-noised and blunted sounding. The early 90s cds were less manipulated, but not exactly alluring in terms of range, warmth or amplitude. But they are different, and I hear improvements in the new set in my comparisons so far along the lines of what I found lacking in previous issues.

If you don’t care about such things, and don’t hear the difference, that’s your business. Why go on about it if it’s unimportant to you? To each his own. One person’s “no difference” is another’s “eh, not enough to matter” is another’s “night and day”. Does that mean one should be compelled to buy the new set for that reason alone? No, of course not, unless you thought the previous CDs sounded poor in some regard. I do think some of them were lackluster and there is some improvement….night and day? No. “Bettered sound at any time”. No, and now yes. Listen and form your own opinion….or say “I don’t give a damn” and stick with what you have. If it sounds ok to you, I’m not going to argue. I won’t agree that the sound hasn’t been “bettered”.

[Gerard]

Op vrijdag 7 juli 2023 om 15:44:35 UTC+2 schreef vhorowitz:

Thanks. It is my experience that a lot of re-re-masterings - in general - might have a slightly "better" sound which is not hearable when listening over speakers, but in some cases when listening with headphones. (This is about other recordings, not Klemperer's; I have some of his recordings twice, and there is some difference indeed like you described.)
I expect that these new remasterings are “eh, not enough to matter” for me, and maybe "don't hear the difference". Anyway no reason for me to buy such a large box and to listen and form my own opinion.
The sound of Klemperer's recordings never was in the "lush category", which also was not Klemperer's goal.
It is too much duplication for me. I am absolutely sure that I will never have time to listen to all of it.

[vhorowitz]

Got it, and that a valid (and sane!) attitude to have about it. And your comment about Klemperer not being in the "lush" category is of course true. When I wrote what I did about the lack of range, warmth & amplitude that does take some explaining. I think that the knock against earlier transfers in that regard is coming from my feeling that there's something "smaller" about the amplitude of those early transfers, IF you go back to good LPs of the recordings. I'm not even trying to say LP is "better" and digital sucks....I think these days digital CAN capture this aspect of the original tapes that, for whatever reason, digital in the earlier days couldn't. SOME of it is absolutely down to the transfer engineer's feeling that on CD we wanted less noise, so the baby was often thrown out with the bathwater. It still is, in many cases, but the analog to digital converters now are capable of giving us that "big fat analog" sound. What does that mean for the lean mean Klemperer, who was never out to seduce us with a creamy sonority? To ME, it means instead of the orchestra sounding about 15 feet wide and deep, that they cover a bigger "stage"....It's not simply soundstage and depth, but more vibrancy in the sound, less "tin fizz" to it. Why it is that good LPs have/had more of this? It's a mystery, but probably comes down to a combination of the digital transfer engineer's ears AND the equipment used for transfers (and it's improvement over the years).

Hah, well, buying all of these sets NOW at my age, is either a challenge to myself that I'll be ornery enough to stick around long enough to listen to it all (hopefully with ears that still register enough to make it worthwhile) or a fool's errand, and something that will fetch $2 at Goodwill after my demise. Probably a combination of the two!

[Gerard]

Op vrijdag 7 juli 2023 om 18:10:50 UTC+2 schreef vhorowitz:

> Got it, and that a valid (and sane!) attitude to have about it. And your comment about Klemperer not being in the "lush" category is of course true. When I wrote what I did about the lack of range, warmth & amplitude that does take some explaining. I think that the knock against earlier transfers in that regard is coming from my feeling that there's something "smaller" about the amplitude of those early transfers, IF you go back to good LPs of the recordings. I'm not even trying to say LP is "better" and digital sucks....I think these days digital CAN capture this aspect of the original tapes that, for whatever reason, digital in the earlier days couldn't. SOME of it is absolutely down to the transfer engineer's feeling that on CD we wanted less noise, so the baby was often thrown out with the bathwater. It still is, in many cases, but the analog to digital converters now are capable of giving us that "big fat analog" sound. What does that mean for the lean mean Klemperer, who was never out to seduce us with a creamy sonority? To ME, it means instead of the orchestra sounding about 15 feet wide and deep, that they cover a bigger "stage"....It's not simply soundstage and depth, but more vibrancy in the sound, less "tin fizz" to it. Why it is that good LPs have/had more of this? It's a mystery, but probably comes down to a combination of the digital transfer engineer's ears AND the equipment used for transfers (and it's improvement over the years).
>
> Hah, well, buying all of these sets NOW at my age, is either a challenge to myself that I'll be ornery enough to stick around long enough to listen to it all (hopefully with ears that still register enough to make it worthwhile) or a fool's errand, and something that will fetch $2 at Goodwill after my demise. Probably a combination of the two!

Hopefully you will enjoy the new box a lot.
I have still "work to do" with the Mozart, Brahms and Romantic Stuff boxes. I was curious about the box with Bach and Haydn and Rameau etc. but mainly for the Haydn symphonies, and ... actually I prefer the HIP conductors in that repertoire and I'm looking forward to what Chauvin will do (who is also busy with a Mozart cycle), hoping his box(es) will come while I can still enjoy listening to music.

[Richard Kaplan]

To answer "VHorowitz's" question, the Mitropoulos box mixes Columbia and Victor originals.

[vhorowitz]

Duh, of course! Thanks. I’ve got that sitting about 3 feet from me but forgot. I wonder if, in this case, the fact that just the Columbia stereos alone are enough to fill 2 boxes of 100 cd each would dictate a further separation for the RCAs….any guess on the number of cds for those? Maybe 40 or so? If I had your discography handy, I could check :)….that is your work, Richard? Thank you for that!

I rather hope these next boxes will still be arranged roughly chronologically. I suppose the concerti could be separated out, but they haven’t done it that way that I remember. God knows, I probably have most of those concerti at LEAST once in previous boxes devoted to the soloists.

[Richard Kaplan]

The Japanese RCA issue of Ormandy's RCA stereo LPs (marketed by ArkivMusic) ran to 68 CDs and omitted a few items. I'm pretty confident the RCAs will be segregated out in their own big box. And yes, the discography is my work, thanks.

[Richard Kaplan]

The first Ormandy Stereo box has been announced and posted on amazon.de--it covers records released 1958--63, but NOT the Beethoven "Eroica" (which lost its exposition repeat on later pressings and reissues) nor the Mendelssohn MSND excerpts recorded in 1957 and issued in stereo only on tape. Here's the url:
https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Eugene-Ormandy/dp/B0CDK8TYT5/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2QOQC308IUVU9&keywords=ormandy&qid=1691304617&s=music&sprefix=%2Cpopular%2C177&sr=1-1

[vhorowitz]

Richard, do you think it’s worth reaching out to some of the folks involved to see if they can add those 2 items? I could try to do so.

[Richard Kaplan]

Well, the Eroica is probably going to be in Box 2 along with the other Beethoven symphonies; as for the Mendelssohn, sure, give it a try, but my information is that the set has already been sent to the manufacturer.

[David Fox]

I strongly suspect there will be three boxes total.

1958-63 - Columbia Stereo Vol 1
1964-68 - Columbia Stereo Vol 2
1968-80 - RCA Stereo

The RCA stereos were remastered for the Ormandy Centenary Japanese release in 2001. Some of those tapes had deteriorated and needed to be baked (e.g. Mahler 2) so they are unlikely to be remastered. All of the subsequent Sony boxes featuring these recordings have used these Japanese remasters. To my ears they sound fine and are unlikely to be substantially improved.

It is also possible the (few) Ormandy/Philadelphia recordings from 1936-42 may be included in the RCA box. Or, they may be released as a smaller RCA Mono set. Ormandy held the title jointly with Stokowski from 1936-40. Ormandy was considered unproved by RCA and they preferred to record the orchestra with Stokowski. After Stokowski finally moved on, RCA recorded the orchestra with Toscanini. Ormandy's second-class status with RCA may have been one key reason he switched to RCA after the recording ban ended.

DF

[Jerry]

Where's the Brahms (Rubbra) Handel Variations (rec. 1960). Was coupled on 2-LP set with German Requiem and also on the
Brahms Essential Classics "Take-2" CD series.

[Richard Kaplan]

I'm sure it will be coupled with the Haydn Variations in vol. 2; that coupling was released on LP in the late '60s.

[Pluted Pup]

On Sat, 05 Aug 2023 23:58:13 -0700, Richard Kaplan wrote:

> On Saturday, July 8, 2023 at 1:43:43???AM UTC-5, Richard Kaplan wrote:
> > On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 6:32:41???PM UTC-5, vhorowitz wrote:
> > > On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 7:07:18???PM UTC-4, Richard Kaplan wrote:

> > > > On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 11:41:03???AM UTC-5, Gerard wrote:
> > > > > Op vrijdag 7 juli 2023 om 18:10:50 UTC+2 schreef vhorowitz:
> > > > > > Got it, and that a valid (and sane!) attitude to have about it. And your comment about Klemperer not being in the "lush" category is of course true. When I wrote what I did about the lack of range, warmth & amplitude that does take some explaining. I think that the knock against earlier transfers in that regard is coming from my feeling that there's something "smaller" about the amplitude of those early transfers, IF you go back to good LPs of the recordings. I'm not even trying to say LP is "better" and digital sucks....I think these days digital CAN capture this aspect of the original tapes that, for whatever reason, digital in the earlier days couldn't. SOME of it is absolutely down to the transfer engineer's feeling that on CD we wanted less noise, so the baby was often thrown out with the bathwater. It still is, in many cases, but the analog to digital converters now are capable of giving us that "big fat analog" sound. What does that mean for the lean mean
Klemperer,
> > > > > > who was never out to seduce us with a creamy sonority? To ME, it means instead of the orchestra sounding about 15 feet wide and deep, that they cover a bigger "stage"....It's not simply soundstage and depth, but more vibrancy in the sound, less "tin fizz" to it. Why it is that good LPs have/had more of this? It's a mystery, but probably comes down to a combination of the digital transfer engineer's ears AND the equipment used for transfers (and it's improvement over the years).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hah, well, buying all of these sets NOW at my age, is either a challenge to myself that I'll be ornery enough to stick around long enough to listen to it all (hopefully with ears that still register enough to make it worthwhile) or a fool's errand, and something that will fetch $2 at Goodwill after my demise. Probably a combination of the two!
> > > > > Hopefully you will enjoy the new box a lot.
> > > > > I have still "work to do" with the Mozart, Brahms and Romantic Stuff boxes. I was curious about the box with Bach and Haydn and Rameau etc. but mainly for the Haydn symphonies, and ... actually I prefer the HIP conductors in that repertoire and I'm looking forward to what Chauvin will do (who is also busy with a Mozart cycle), hoping his box(es) will come while I can still enjoy listening to music.
> > > > To answer "VHorowitz's" question, the Mitropoulos box mixes Columbia and Victor originals.

> > > Duh, of course! Thanks. I扉e got that sitting about 3 feet from me but forgot. I wonder if, in this case, the fact that just the Columbia stereos alone are enough to fill 2 boxes of 100 cd each would dictate a further separation for the RCAs....any guess on the number of cds for those? Maybe 40 or so? If I had your discography handy, I could check :)....that is your work, Richard? Thank you for that!
> > >
> > > I rather hope these next boxes will still be arranged roughly chronologically. I suppose the concerti could be separated out, but they haven愒 done it that way that I remember. God knows, I probably have most of those concerti at LEAST once in previous boxes devoted to the soloists.

> > The Japanese RCA issue of Ormandy's RCA stereo LPs (marketed by ArkivMusic) ran to 68 CDs and omitted a few items. I'm pretty confident the RCAs will be segregated out in their own big box. And yes, the discography is my work, thanks.
> The first Ormandy Stereo box has been announced and posted on amazon.de--it covers records released 1958--63, but NOT the Beethoven "Eroica" (which lost its exposition repeat on later pressings and reissues) nor the Mendelssohn MSND excerpts recorded in 1957 and issued in stereo only on tape. Here's the url:
> https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Eugene-Ormandy/dp/B0CDK8TYT5/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2QOQC308IUVU9&keywords=ormandy&qid=1691304617&s=music&sprefix=%2Cpopular%2C177&sr=1-1

Was the mono version of the MSND excerpts included in the
mono box?

[Richard Kaplan]

Yes, along with mono versions of items that were first issued on mono LPs and later issued in stereo--they are in this new box in stereo. And, big news, the track list on the Amazon.com listing (just up) indicates the Mendelssohn MSND excerpts on disc 27, logically on the same disc as Serkin's recordings of the Mendelssohn concertos; and, it also indicates Bloch's Schelomo on disc 87 along with Strauss's Don Quixote. So, it seems they're doing a thorough job, which is a relief. Now, I wonder whether the LPs conducted by Stokowski and Munch, and the handful of items conducted by William Smith, will appear in volume 2. Their procedure with the mono "Columbia Legacy" box suggests so, but I'll write to producer Robert Russ anyway and remind him.

[Richard Kaplan]

Further, it looks like the Brahms Handel Variations are going to be on CD 12 along with the 1959 First Symphony.

[Steven Reveyoso]

One mono Ormandy-conducted recording, the Schumann Cello Concerto with Pablo Casals, was omitted from the earlier set. Might that appear in the subsequent set as in an appendix or, more substantially, a complete Casals edition as this year is the 50th anniversary of his death (along with Ancerl, Klemperer and Szigeti - all having gotten recognized with various reissues).

Steve

[Dennman6]

Pretty sure you meant Ormandy switched to Columbia after "second-class status" with RCA, yes?

[Jerry]

Still working from the listing of contents on the Amazon.de site. Hope that a more detailed list will arise soon. In addition to the "omissions" noted earlier,
I'm puzzled by the Lalo Symphonie Espagnole on Disc 40. Is that the 1967 Stereo misplaced in this set or the 1956 in newly discovered Stereo?

[drh8h]

I am not so sure it was "second class" status as that CBS/Columbia under Ed Wallerstein, a former RCA executive, aggressively headhunted prominent Victor artists and organizations. Just a partial list: Pons, Melchior, Sayao, Traubel, Chicago Symphony, Busch Quartet, Budapest Quartet and many more.

DH

[David Fox]

Ormandy was chosen initially as co-conductor with Stokowski to give the orchestra some leverage, but not to unsettle Stokowski too much. Stokowski didn't view Ormandy as a viable threat. Ormandy was less than a decade removed from being the concertmaster of a cinema pit orchestra while Stokowski was one of the highest-profile conductors in the world. When Stokowski finally resigned in 1940, RCA was still not convinced of Ormandy's marketability. They felt much safer selling Philadelphia Orchestra recordings with Toscanini at the helm. It wasn't until about a decade of Philadelphia - the orchestra and the major donors - becoming comfortable with Ormandy and vice versa that he had the ground solidly under him. Launching a new recording contract with a new label after the recording ban ended was also a major part of Ormandy wiping the slate clean and creating his own legacy.

DF

[drh8h]

I can't agree. Look at the RCA recordings Ormandy was doing with the Philadelphia in the pre-war period. Mark Obert-Thorn has been remastering them for Pristine Classical. Quite a wide repertory, many major works and many, many discs. RCA must have regarded Ormandy as important in the Philadelphia's future. RCA never sold any of the Toscanini/Philadelphia recordings until over 20 years after the fact, and even tried to make the Old Man "forget" about those technically failed efforts. RCA apparently thought Ormandy's name important enough to insist on their contract and record the Nutcracker Suite with him after the orchestra had already started recording for Columbia.

DH

[Richard Kaplan]

I don't know, Dennis. To quote my discography's Introduction, "At Victor, [Ormandy] played 'third fiddle' to the better-established Koussevitzky and Toscanini, but with the younger Columbia Records the Philadelphia Orchestra was the star attraction. The contract even stipulated that the Philadelphia Orchestra get top billing, and as many releases as any other artist. It further stated, 'If Phihladelphia repertoire in Victor catalog is remade by Victor with another major orchestra, we must permit Philadelphia an option on making it for us if it is to be made by Columbia.'" At Victor, Ormandy was the go-to guy for Richard Strauss and maybe Tchaikovsky (though not the Fourth), but not Wagner, Brahms (beyond the Second Symphony), Prokofiev, Beethoven (beyond the First), Debussy, Haydn, Mozart (beyond one divertimento), Prokofiev, and Shostakovich, all composers he recorded extensively for Columbia.

Rich

[drh8h]

I agree it is complicated. Ormandy doubtless benefitted from the boycott of the Boston Symphony starting in 1940. By the time the BSO unionized and could record again after the strike they were out of the studios for four years. I have always suspected, without knowing anything about the sales figures, Stokowski's short run with his youth orchestra for Columbia was not much of a commercial success. In any event, he was quickly back to Victor, even before the strike. Toscanini would doubtless have had first choice of any repertory he wanted to record. Ditto for Koussevitzky. Moving to Columbia certainly gave Ormandy the chance to enhance his "brand" and become almost synonymous with the Philadelphia. Columbia certainly gave him more opportunities in the standard Germanic repertory, including a Beethoven Ninth. By then, though, he was competing at Columbia with Bruno Walter.

DH