Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

[Andy Evans]

Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.

This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.

[gggg gggg]

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
>
> This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.

What about R. Strauss?

[HT]

Op dinsdag 16 mei 2023 om 18:20:35 UTC+2 schreef Andy Evans:

> Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
>
> This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.

No problem at all - if it is not avant-garde and has a piano in it.

Bartok's piano concerto #3 is my favourite concerto. His Out of doors is one of my favourite pieces for piano solo.

There are quite a few 'young' Russian composers I followed at the beginning of this century. The recordings seldom do full justice to the composition performed. I'd love to have more versions of Boris Tchaikovsky's piano concerto, for example, instead of more versions of Rachmaninoff's 3d - although this one is in many way perfect (far better than the composer's own version):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTBTJmYLvM0

Henk

[Mandryka]

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:20:35 PM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:
> Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
>
> This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.

Have you heard the Francois Xavier Roth Jeux - I love it.

Anyone here explored recordings of Symphony of Winds?

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <a129f85d-c644-49a7...@googlegroups.com>,

HT <hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>No problem at all - if it is not avant-garde and has a piano in it.

I'm more interested in the opposite. Actually contemporary music,
and I'm sick of the piano.

[HT]

Op dinsdag 16 mei 2023 om 19:46:12 UTC+2 schreef Todd M. McComb:

> I'm more interested in the opposite. Actually contemporary music,
> and I'm sick of the piano.

Yes, I'm aware of that. We won't have much to discuss - and therefore little to disagree about. Being opposites has its advantages.

Henk

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <ac27ca66-718a-4b2f...@googlegroups.com>,

HT <hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>We won't have much to discuss - and therefore little to disagree
>about. Being opposites has its advantages.

Or put another way, there's an audience -- albeit small -- here for
anything!

[HT]

Op dinsdag 16 mei 2023 om 20:21:52 UTC+2 schreef Todd M. McComb:

Another advantage!

Henk

[Herman]

I tremendously enjoyed Jorg Widmann's 2nd Violin Concerto, performed by and dedicated to his sister Carolin, premiered five years ago.

Shades of Alban Berg...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vfKQ8IXDuo&t=1485s

[Chris J.]

Later than Brahms (1833-1897)?

Debussy, Ravel and Stravinsky, yes. Perhaps also Saint-Saëns (1835-1921),
Bruch (1838-1920), Dvorák (1845-1904), Fauré (1845-1924), Janácek
(1854-1928), Elgar (1857-1934), Mahler (1860-1911), Nielsen (1865-1931),
Sibelius (1865-1957)?

The rest is noise ;-)

Chris

[mINE109]

Not systematically, but I enjoy the Dutoit Montreal recording (I once
heard a band conductor praise its intonation) and the Boulez New York in
immersive quad on a Dutton hybrid cd reissue.

A Roth-led performance with early 20th century French instruments would
be intriguing.

[Dan Koren]

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
>

> Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly
> see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky,
> Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.

Because this ng is dominated by folks who believe
German composers are the only ones worth hearing.

> This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves
> me not wanting to participate much - my usual
> listening repertoire is more modern.

I wouldn't describe it as "emphasis on classical/
romantic" as there were plenty of classical and
romantic composers outside Germany. I would
describe it as cultural and racial prejudice.

dk

[Dan Koren]

Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky, Borodin, Rimsky-Korsakov, Scriabin,
Rachmaninov, Prokofiev are "noise"? Albeniz, Granados, De Falla
are "noise"? Poulenc and Respighi are "noise"?

Where do you buy your gas?

dk

[Dan Koren]

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 2:31:25 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

> Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 16. Mai 2023 um 23:28:03 UTC+2:
> > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> > >
> > > Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly
> > > see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky,
> > > Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
> >
> > Because this ng is dominated by folks who believe
> > German composers are the only ones worth hearing.
>

> I can't see anything wrong with this.

I see everything wrong with one style of music and one
mindset being proclaimed as "norma;" or "superior".

> > > This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves
> > > me not wanting to participate much - my usual
> > > listening repertoire is more modern.
> >
> > I wouldn't describe it as "emphasis on classical/
> > romantic" as there were plenty of classical and
> > romantic composers outside Germany. I would
> > describe it as cultural and racial prejudice.
>

> I would just describe it as the truth: Austro-German
> music is the best.

Austro-German music is pretentious pedantic shit.
It is craft, not art. Just like German cars.

dk

[gggg gggg]

And Holst?

[Pluted Pup]

On Tue, 16 May 2023 14:42:09 -0700, Marc S wrote:

> Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 16. Mai 2023 um 23:32:52 UTC+2:

> What a bunch of buffoons compared to the composers I listed...

Prokofiev is a million times more Germanic than Shoenberg!
Putting Shoenberg next to Brahms and Schubert is silly.

[raymond....@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 02:20:35 UTC+10, Andy Evans wrote:
> Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
>
> This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.

Same here. Where is Sibelius, Janacek, Shostakovich, Villa-Lobos, Englund, Ivanovs, Roussel, and Malcolm Arnold, or Ives. A lot of early 19th century is all about form, scales, and pasted endings, etc. As boring as a wet lettuce. I'd rather go for earlier music such as Palestrina, Lassus, Byrd to be honest and is reflected as such on my shelves. Bach is given an exception.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Dan Koren]

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 4:24:51 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
>
> Prokofiev is a million times more Germanic than Shoenberg!
> Putting Shoenberg next to Brahms and Schubert is silly.

Especially so in this score:

https://youtu.be/HdC39ShxoUo

dk

[number_six]

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
>
> This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.

Martynov, Yamashita, many others have come up...

[Dan Koren]

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 4:57:12 PM UTC-7, number_six wrote:
>
> Martynov, Yamashita, many others have come up...
>

https://youtu.be/Lyb7augbLSU

[Andrew Clarke]

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 2:20:35 AM UTC+10, Andy Evans wrote:
> Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
>
> This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.

Well, there's the Rachmaninov. Big Dave has been tslking a good deal about the Rach symphonies, because a new set by a British conductor and a British orchestra is in progress from Chandos, and Dave thinks it's tepid and glib. Dave likes his Rachmaninov on the gushy side, you see, because it reminds him of the films he used to see when his Yiddische Momma used to take him to the theater as a special treat, and the background music used to well up to a crescendo as Nelson Eddy and Jeanette Macdonald puckered up for their first kiss. And the little propeller on the top of little David's cap didn't stop revolving for 36 hours ...

The arguments, for want of a better word, presented by Dave and his fan club (on YouTube) are interesting. The Davald admits that the Sinfonia of London plays it well, and that Mr Wilson - the conductor, not Dennis the Menace's neighbour - makes some wise decisions. But it isn't sexy enough, you see. So from here - a matter of subjective reaction - he goes on to say that because of this, Chandos has no business releasing the recording. Even more oddly, he declares that Mr W and the SoL should stick to playing British music which they do very well, which seems to suggest that British music lacks emotional power, which is very odd indeed. The the Fan Club come in and argue that Chandos will make quite a lot of money because The Gramophone will say that the recording is the cat's pyjamas and 64 million British citizens will immediately rush out and buy it.

This utterly bonkers suggestion is based on the strange myth of what Mr Dallas calls ' the brotherhood of British reviewers'. In this context it's interesting to note that he puts in a big, big boost for the new Rach set from Leonard Slatkin already and the Detroiyoiyoit Symphony Orchestra, from Naxos. Could it be that there is a brotherhood of Jewish American critics? Surely not ...

I might add that (a) the British critics I've read agree that the recording of Rach 2 is emotionally underpowered (b) contrary to the fan club's predictions, The Gramophone did not put Mr Wilson's Rach 2 into the Editor's Picks list (c) Naxos, like other recording companies would probably have charged the Detroit people many thousands of dollars to record their efforts, because there are no guaranteed profits from classical music recordings any more, for Naxos, Chandos or anybody else and (d) that despite Big D's loud protestations that he feels no nostalgia for the Golden Age, Mr Slatkin is 78 years old and the Detroit is very much a Golden Age orchestra - we haven't heard all that much from them since.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Dan Koren]

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 11:12:13 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

> Is this not rather anti-germanic?...

Yes, but in a very Germanic way.

dk

[JohnGavin]

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 12:20:35 PM UTC-4, Andy Evans wrote:
> Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
>
> This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.

My memory is that if you look through the WAYLT threads each month, you will find lots of recordings of contemporary music discussed.

I tend to go as far as Messiaen and rarely farther. My rule is that if the music seems primarily intellectual I’m not very interested - and this unfortunately is the case with post 1940’s composers. As for Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc, Durufle, they are composers I wouldn’t want to live without. I recently came to the realization that I like quite a bit of Stravinsky, but I don’t love most of it.

[Mandryka]

Messaien is far, maybe too far for me, IF you mean the post war music. Things like Couleurs de la cité céleste.

[Andy Evans]

On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 15:40:26 UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:

> Messaien is far, maybe too far for me, IF you mean the post war music. Things like Couleurs de la cité céleste.

La Nativite Du Seigneur is quite easy to like.

I, like others, have difficulty with his birdsong, but Beroff's 20 Regards goes down well.

[JohnGavin]

Indeed, Nativite and Regards are at the top of my list. L’Ascension as well. Tarangalila when I’m in the mood. Messe de La Pentecost sometimes.

[HT]

Op woensdag 17 mei 2023 om 17:08:45 UTC+2 schreef Andy Evans:

And so does Chamayou's, although I still prefer Peter Serkin's. If very well played, and that doesn't happen often, some of the birds sounds as least as interesting as the Regards.

Henk

[Mandryka]

What do you think of Tristan Murail's Territoires d'oubli?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16Y8tZ7potQ&ab_channel=LanCao

[Andy Evans]

On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 17:39:18 UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> What do you think of Tristan Murail's Territoires d'oubli?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16Y8tZ7potQ&ab_channel=LanCao

Good shout. Interesting sonorities. Lacks variety, though. Better than Cecil Taylor.

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 9:11:19 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:
>
> I still prefer Peter Serkin's.
>

Sewing machine.

dk

[HT]

Op woensdag 17 mei 2023 om 18:39:18 UTC+2 schreef Mandryka:

> What do you think of Tristan Murail's Territoires d'oubli?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16Y8tZ7potQ&ab_channel=LanCao

I like this version (and the rest of the CD) quite well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2qoYkdwmvw&list=OLAK5uy_mBqC0_W0Z4ByYL8_0voh98BSl87GlvpOI&index=4

Never heard of Nonken before, but I like her approach to this music.

Henk

[HT]

Op woensdag 17 mei 2023 om 19:05:41 UTC+2 schreef Dan Koren:

> On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 9:11:19 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:
> >
> > I still prefer Peter Serkin's.
> >
> Sewing machine.

It's the most jazzy version I know. Chamayou sounds a bit overawed by the music, as in my young days pianists were when playing Bach or Mozart (Ba-AHH and Mose-ARHH).

Henk

[Mandryka]

She's a specialist in French piano music post Messiaen. The other performer who's taken up Murail is Frenderic Francois Guy

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Debussy-Murail-R%C3%A9volutions-Francois-Frederic-Guy/dp/B09MYYWFT3/ref=sr_1_2?crid=OOXQ9XK4XQBZ&keywords=frederic+francois+guy+debussy&qid=1684344480&sprefix=frederic+francois+guy+debussy%2Caps%2C84&sr=8-2

[Mandryka]

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 6:19:21 PM UTC+1, HT wrote:

By the way, the score is indeterminate in all sorts of ways -- this one shows the score unfold. You could have a go at playing it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3UN_hUPOwQ&t=12s&ab_channel=Pourceuxquelelangagead%C3%A9sert%C3%A9s

[Mandryka]

Re Peter Serkin, I think this bit of Messiaen he recorded is wonderful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5bgAw7ciUA&ab_channel=PeterSerkin-Topic

[Andy Evans]

On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 18:23:53 UTC+1, HT wrote:

> It's the most jazzy version I know. Chamayou sounds a bit overawed by the music, as in my young days pianists were when playing Bach or Mozart (Ba-AHH and Mose-ARHH).
> > Henk

Well.... this is deeply religious music and some reverence isn't out of place. Chamayou plays the music with sonorities closer to the organ - less percussive than others. Not such a bad thing for me.

Serkin doesn't do anything for me. Loriod is an alternative.

[Herman]

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 7:31:28 PM UTC+2, Mandryka wrote:
> Re Peter Serkin, I think this bit of Messiaen he recorded is wonderful
>

Peter Serkin was a wonderful pianist (and person).

The 'sewing machine' comment was from RMCR's resident racist, who believes
the Serkin way of playing went from father to son.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <9e7847a4-2e88-486b...@googlegroups.com>,

JohnGavin <dag...@gmail.com> wrote:
>My memory is that if you look through the WAYLT threads each month,
>you will find lots of recordings of contemporary music discussed.

I've mentioned many over the past few years. Mostly there's no
response. Occasionally someone expresses some interest....

[JohnGavin]

I was in the audience at Alice Tully Hall in Lincoln Center for a live performance of the Vingt Regards by Peter Serkin around the time the recording came out. Serkin performed the entire work from memory. I knew the work from John Ogden’s recording.

The performance was very impressive - not at all like a sewing machine. He actually produced a very beautiful range of colors. Admittedly not a quality one associates with the Serkin name. The only reason I don’t recommend his recording is that RCA recorded the piano very dryly.

I very much enjoy Steve Osborne’s recording on Hyperion - which will be streaming soon.

[HT]

Op woensdag 17 mei 2023 om 19:29:36 UTC+2 schreef Mandryka:

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3UN_hUPOwQ&t=12s&ab_channel=Pourceuxquelelangagead%C3%A9sert%C3%A9s

Thanks for the link! Murail is no Sorabji, let alone Finnissy - but nevertheless, far too difficult. Besides, a score of six pages is my limit.

Henk

[Andy Evans]

On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 19:17:36 UTC+1, Marc S wrote:

> But as I said in another thread, trying to help antisemites to think properly is like teaching monkeys to speak...

FFS stop all this inane comments on antisemitism. You drone on and on and on and on about it as if it's the only thing in the world.

It makes it impossible to have conversations with you. You do realise this, I hope.

[Herman]

The issue was, as others said, that Peter Serkin was a wonderful pianist, especially of contemporary music.

[Herman]

This is why I started another topic...
As soon as these two goons appear it's over with any discussion.

[Andy Evans]

On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 19:53:56 UTC+1, Herman wrote:
> This is why I started another topic...
> As soon as these two goons appear it's over with any discussion.

Every now and then Marc appears to be capable of conversation. Then he just flips his lid and goes into gibberish as if his frontal lobes were made of cheese. Unfortunately he has verbal diarrhea and just goes off at a tangent for post after post after post talking complete nonsense.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <30b20439-4306-42a2...@googlegroups.com>,

Andy Evans <performan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Unfortunately he has verbal diarrhea and just goes off at a tangent
>for post after post after post talking complete nonsense.

Uh, he is trying to prevent conversations. That's not "a tangent."
It's why he's here.

[JohnGavin]

The best remedy might be for everyone to cease to react to the non-productive posts, and only partake in the meaningful and substantive conversations. This is not aimed at anyone in particular. When the conversations turn personal or insulting just ignore it repeatedly. Then the dialogue will once more become more constructive.

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 1:23:16 PM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:
>
> The best remedy might be for everyone to
> cease to react to the non-productive posts,

Are you appointing yourself arbiter of this ng?

> and only partake in the meaningful and
> substantive conversations.

What appears to be "meaningful" to one
person may not be nearly as meaningful
to others -- if it all. How is one supposed
to know?

> This is not aimed at anyone in particular.

Of course not, political correctness is aimed
equally against all opinions that differ from
common, prescribed norms.

> When the conversations turn personal or
> insulting just ignore it repeatedly.

Conversations are not insulting. People
feel insulted when their skin is too thin,
and when their minds are too narrow.

> Then the dialogue will once more become
> more constructive.

Far more likely the dialogue will die out.

Who needs "constructive"? How do
"construction" and "constructionism"
benefit anyone or anything? If one
needs "construction" one can
engage carpenters.

dk

[Frank Berger]

Logical but pretty useless advice. The people who most abhor a certain type of post (Herman re: Dan, Andy re: antisemitism, e.g.) seem to be incapable of ignoring same.

[Andy Evans]

On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 22:02:50 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:

> Logical but pretty useless advice. The people who most abhor a certain type of post (Herman re: Dan, Andy re: antisemitism, e.g.) seem to be incapable of ignoring same.

Not true. This newsgroup is flooded with accusations of antisemitism, most of which get regularly ignored, including by me. But please admit that such accusations are extremely distasteful and insulting and at times it's understandable that people lose their cool.

Herman is a perfectly nice guy who has been hounded by Dan for ages. I can quite understand why he loses his cool at times.

[Dan Koren]

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
>
> Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I
> hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel,
> Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern
> music.

Can we discuss music earlier than Bach?
Does anyone here have any idea how
modern Frescobaldi's music is?

dk

[Dan Koren]

https://youtu.be/aUTh6wrFozA

dk

[Dan Koren]

https://youtu.be/QJcSwjnFtNA?t=40

dk

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:45:17 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
>
> My favourite composers (and the only composers I really need) are:
>
> Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert,
> Brahms, Schoenberg, Webern ... not
> so sure about Berg... I seem to prefer
> Schoenberg and Webern by far....

All German/Austrian -- what a surprise!

Quicky pour some bleach into your ears!

dk

[Pluted Pup]

On Tue, 16 May 2023 23:04:07 -0700, Marc S wrote:

> Pluted Pup schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 01:24:51 UTC+2:
> > Prokofiev is a million times more Germanic than Shoenberg!
> > Putting Shoenberg next to Brahms and Schubert is silly.
>
> This ofc is utter bullshit that could only originate from an antisemitic mind... Schoenberg carried on the Austro-German lineage; what did Prokofiev do? trying to speak french as a russian... what is so germanic about this?
>
> There is a saying you know... that trying to help antisemites (and I'm including jt here, even though he is not as crazy as you are) think properly is like teaching monkeys to talk...

Germanic music is music that people Like to hear, Jewish
music is an Ordeal that's patronized for political reasons.

Prokovieff has the Romeo and Juliet ballet and the
Nevsky soundtrack, Shoenberg is drab and dull that's
intended to scare kids away from classical music.

[Pluted Pup]

On Wed, 17 May 2023 07:27:47 -0700, Marc S wrote:

> JohnGavin schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 16:24:07 UTC+2:

> > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 12:20:35???PM UTC-4, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
> > >

> > > This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.
> > My memory is that if you look through the WAYLT threads each month, you will find lots of recordings of contemporary music discussed.
> >
> > I tend to go as far as Messiaen and rarely farther. My rule is that if the music seems primarily intellectual I惴 not very interested - and this unfortunately is the case with post 1940愀 composers. As for Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc, Durufle, they are composers I wouldn愒 want to live without. I recently came to the realization that I like quite a bit of Stravinsky, but I don愒 love most of it.
>
> How then is it that I like Schoenberg? I can't follow him intellectually as I have no idea of music theory... yet I love him.

Do you like him because Adorno told you to like him?

[Frank Berger]

On 5/17/2023 5:33 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 22:02:50 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>
>> Logical but pretty useless advice. The people who most abhor a certain type of post (Herman re: Dan, Andy re: antisemitism, e.g.) seem to be incapable of ignoring same.
>
> Not true. This newsgroup is flooded with accusations of antisemitism,

"Flooded?" LOL.

> most of which get regularly ignored, including by me.

Still laughing. Can't stop.

But please admit that such accusations are extremely distasteful and insulting and at times it's understandable that people lose their cool.
>

You seem to think an accusation of antisemitism is "distasteful" even when there is evidence to suggest it's' truth. When an innocent person is indicted for a crime and is acquitted, was the indictment "distasteful," or just possibly warranted based on evidence?

> Herman is a perfectly nice guy who has been hounded by Dan for ages. I can quite understand why he loses his cool at times.

The level of venom expressed by Herman is not suggestive of a nice person or a healthy person. Nobody is perfect.

[Dan Koren]

Obviously not -- it is Marc's own unadornoed opinion.

dk