Eugene Ormandy - The Columbia Legacy 120 CDs

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RiRiIII

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Dec 18, 2020, 5:22:46 AM12/18/20
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mswd...@gmail.com

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Dec 18, 2020, 7:28:10 AM12/18/20
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drh8h

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Dec 18, 2020, 8:19:38 AM12/18/20
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That is great news for Ormandy admirers and those like myself who are curious. Hoping for remasterings of some of the items already issued on CD. Judging from past performance, we may be waiting for many months!

DH

RiRiIII

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Dec 18, 2020, 8:26:14 AM12/18/20
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Can you guess if 120 cds are enough for all his 78s, mono, stereo Columbia recordings?

I read that he made 1222 recordings with the Philhadelphia O. for both Columbia and RCA. I do not have the Book by Kaplan though, where this info comes from.

drh8h

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Dec 18, 2020, 8:41:14 AM12/18/20
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Presumably the discs will be well filled, so we are talking about 150+ hours of material. There are going to be a few big works in it never before officially on CD, like the German Requiem and B Minor Mass, unless somebody forgets them. The Mozart Oboe Quartet from Prades was "forgotten" in the Stern set. As for numbers, depends on how "recording" is defined. When the Szell box was issued, for purposes of claiming how many "recordings" were remastered, for instance, each Slavonic Dance was counted as one "recording." So was each overture that appeared on the same record. Ormandy did his share and maybe more of "Pops" type pieces, so hard to say.

DH

Frank Berger

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Dec 18, 2020, 9:49:04 AM12/18/20
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On 12/18/2020 8:41 AM, drh8h wrote:
> On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 8:26:14 AM UTC-5, RiRiIII wrote:
>> On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 3:19:38 PM UTC+2, drh8h wrote:
>>> On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 7:28:10 AM UTC-5, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 4:22:46 AM UTC-6, RiRiIII wrote:
>>>>> Coming.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.amazon.de/Eugene-Ormandy-Columbia-Legacy-Ormandy/dp/B08QRXT715/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&qid=1608265263&refinements=p_n_feature_five_browse-bin%3A379148011&rnid=332670031&s=music-classical&sr=1-6&tag=shforums.de-21
>>>>
>>>> Hooray!
>>> That is great news for Ormandy admirers and those like myself who are curious. Hoping for remasterings of some of the items already issued on CD. Judging from past performance, we may be waiting for many months!
>>>
>>> DH
>> Can you guess if 120 cds are enough for all his 78s, mono, stereo Columbia recordings?
>>
>> I read that he made 1222 recordings with the Philhadelphia O. for both Columbia and RCA. I do not have the Book by Kaplan though, where this info comes from.
>
> Presumably the discs will be well filled, so we are talking about 150+ hours of material. There are going to be a few big works in it never before officially on CD, like the German Requiem and B Minor Mass, >unless somebody forgets them. The Mozart Oboe Quartet from Prades was "forgotten" in the Stern set.

They should have looked in Perpignon, not Prades.




drh8h

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Dec 18, 2020, 9:53:00 AM12/18/20
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You're right again.

Frank Berger

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Dec 18, 2020, 11:54:14 AM12/18/20
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I know little. I look stuff up.

Precious Roy

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Dec 18, 2020, 1:48:37 PM12/18/20
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At last!

John Fowler

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Dec 18, 2020, 3:12:30 PM12/18/20
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Actually they should have looked in Perpignan not Perpignon.

vhorowitz

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Dec 18, 2020, 4:02:02 PM12/18/20
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That catch shows great perpignacity🤔

wanwan

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Dec 19, 2020, 12:13:34 AM12/19/20
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According to Jed Distler, mono recordings only. So, 1944-1958 roughly.

Eric

RiRiIII

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Dec 19, 2020, 3:25:16 AM12/19/20
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Eric,

the 78s were made for RCA (Minneapolis and Philadelphia), if I get it right. So indeed these are excluded.

I think the first one is Beethoven's 7th in 1944 up to the first stereo (1958, Respighi - the first stereo Columbia LP).


Alex

drh8h

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Dec 19, 2020, 8:14:12 AM12/19/20
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Well, just remember Pristine Classical has a series in progress of the Ormandy/Philadelphia/RCA 78s transferred by Mark Obert-Thorn. Four discs worth already. Hard to imagine them being done much better. The second volume has the rare Mozart Divertimento recording, one of those which the record company stupidly mixed 10 and 12 inch discs.

Dennis

RiRiIII

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Dec 19, 2020, 11:17:14 AM12/19/20
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Question: During the late-60s/70s/80s PO & Ormandy were recording simultaneously for both RCA and Columbia. Even EMI?

RiRiIII

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Dec 19, 2020, 11:35:43 AM12/19/20
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I see that he recorded for Columbia up to 1969 (Sibelius with Stern).

Mark Obert-Thorn

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Dec 19, 2020, 11:56:50 AM12/19/20
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On Saturday, December 19, 2020 at 11:17:14 AM UTC-5, RiRiIII wrote:
> Question: During the late-60s/70s/80s PO & Ormandy were recording simultaneously for both RCA and Columbia. Even EMI?

In the late '70s/early '80s, Ormandy and the PO recorded for RCA, Columbia (his last recording, cello concertos by Shostakovich and Kabalevsky with Yo-Yo Ma in 1982), EMI, Delos (Tchaikovsky 5th and 6th) and Telarc (Saint-Saens Organ Symphony).

Mark O-T

Richard Kaplan

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Dec 20, 2020, 10:47:15 PM12/20/20
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The Columbia contract ended in May, 1968; the last work recorded was the Brahms First Symphony. Eight days later they were recording for RCA. The Sibelius with Stern the following year was a one-off.

Joseph Serraglio

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Dec 21, 2020, 5:57:46 AM12/21/20
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Does anyone have more details about this release or it’s status? I can’t find it mentioned anywhere else..

JohnA

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Dec 21, 2020, 9:41:49 AM12/21/20
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I remember seeing late last year an "Eugene Ormandy The Concerto Recordings" 98 disc box somewhere, and I even copied a UPC number, 0190758199429, but it never appeared.

Frank Berger

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Dec 21, 2020, 10:08:49 AM12/21/20
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Among the mysteries of the universe is why there is total
disarray in the announcing and advertising of classical
music releases.

Mr. Mike

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Dec 21, 2020, 11:40:13 AM12/21/20
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On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 06:41:46 -0800 (PST), JohnA <jano...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>I remember seeing late last year an "Eugene Ormandy The Concerto Recordings"
>98 disc box somewhere, and I even copied a UPC number, 0190758199429, but
> it never appeared.

There was this Ormandy concerto box (only 3 CDs):

https://www.amazon.com/Eugene-Ormandy-Conducts-Mozart-Concertos/dp/B0713MZWQN

Stefan Huber

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Dec 21, 2020, 6:34:19 PM12/21/20
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raymond....@gmail.com

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Dec 21, 2020, 7:43:36 PM12/21/20
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Advertising space costs money, and classical music is only a niche part of the total music industry. With only a few specialized opportunities such as magazines (not many) and newsgroups, it is left to CM devotees to dig up information for themselves. It is there, but needs effort to find it.

Ray Hall, Taree

Frank Berger

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Dec 21, 2020, 8:15:40 PM12/21/20
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If I had wondered why the U.S postal system is in disarray
and you had answered extreme load (greater than the normal
seasonal peak for obvious reasons) and staffing problems due
to Covid-19, I would have accepted that.

Unfortunately, that's not what I am wondering about. You
answer, while correct in so far as it goes, doesn't go far
enough.

raymond....@gmail.com

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Dec 21, 2020, 10:23:04 PM12/21/20
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On Tuesday, 22 December 2020 at 12:15:40 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
Then time must be so abundantly yours, that you can engage in such precious pedantry, that you should have enough time to fill in any number of spaces, on a very large set of subjects, and therefore not bother posing questions that seem to satisfy your ambiguities, whilst requiring others to be mind readers.

Ray Hall, Taree

Sol L. Siegel

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Dec 21, 2020, 11:02:55 PM12/21/20
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So was the 1982 Yo-Yo Ma disc. It was not only Ormandy's last recording
but the last recording done in the Scottish Rite Cathedral on North
Broad Street, the Orchestra's preferred recording venue after about 1960.
Shortly afterward it was demolished for a parking garage for the
Hahnemann University Hospital - itself since shuttered.

- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Frank Berger

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Dec 21, 2020, 11:15:01 PM12/21/20
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Never mind.



RiRiIII

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Jan 4, 2021, 3:10:55 PMJan 4
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Discography of Eugene Ormandy (1899-1985)
http://ormandy.html.xdomain.jp/ormandy_disk_e.html

I did a draft quick calculation using an excel sheet for the Symphonies and Concertos and 75min cd duration:

Symphonies & Concertos - Columbia mono: 43 cds
Symphonies & Concertos - Columbia stereo: 69 cds
Symphonies & Concertos - Columbia Total: 112 cds

On one hand if the box carries only the mono recordings, I cannot imagine that the remaining monophonic Columbia orchestral/vocal recordings [I will calculate them too later] can be on 77 CDs... On the other hand, these ones cannot only be good for 8 cds... We ll see. Perhaps the box will not carry 120 cds after all. Or the data/my calculation is wrong...

NB:
Regarding RCA:

Symphonies & Concertos - RCA mono: 10 cds
Symphonies & Concertos - RCA stereo: 32 cds

Richard Kaplan

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Jan 5, 2021, 2:34:20 AMJan 5
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I think your premise is incorrect. The set will almost certainly be in "Complete Album" format, with CDs mostly having the same contents as the 12-inch LPs. This works out to somewhere above 108 CDs if you combine 10-inch LPs and the handful of items from 78s that were not issued on LP at all. So 120 is a plausible number for the mono Columbias. As for the stereo Columbias, there were over 200 LPs, making it a long shot for Sony to issue those complete in a box; the Japanese Sony Ormandy edition ran to some 75 CDs and includes well under half of the total Columbia stereo recordings.

John Fowler

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Jan 5, 2021, 1:09:56 PMJan 5
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Are we absolutely certain the new Ormandy box will be mono recordings only?
The average Ormandy admirer strikes me as being hooked on the "Philadelphia Sound" as much as the conductor's interpretations.
Ormandy's biggest LP sales were in the first ten years of stereo.
Columbia marketed his recordings as Hi-fi Stereo Spectaculars.
Are there enough connoisseurs out there to justify a 120 CD box of his mono recordings?

Frank Berger

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Jan 5, 2021, 2:08:57 PMJan 5
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Earlier in the thread someone said that Jed Distler had said
it was mono only. The fact that the title "The Columbia
Legacy" seems inconsistent with the set being mono only is
something only a record producer could explain. Or Distler
was wrong. It doesn't say "complete" legacy, so 120 CDs of
selected mono and stereo recordings seems plausible too.

drh8h

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Jan 5, 2021, 2:22:38 PMJan 5
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Given there is no design of the box shown and no release date, we might actually have it in a year. Box sets are not coming out at the rate they were before COVID and with the situation worsening, I cannot imagine this is a priority item for what is likely to be constrained manufacturing resources.

DH

RiRiIII

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Jan 5, 2021, 4:59:02 PMJan 5
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This seems logical. Like the Walter Box. With a duration of 45 or 50 min per CD my excel file results in: 65 or 72 CDs Columbia Mono Symphonies+Concerti

So we need another 48 to 55 CDs with orchestral and vocal works to complete the 120 mono Columbia CDs.

Richard Kaplan

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Jan 6, 2021, 2:05:45 AMJan 6
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Robert Russ of Sony told me months ago that he was concentrating on mono Columbias, and there's been no indication from Sony that this will be a curated box with a mixture of mono and stereo recordings. So Distler is probably correct. In the best case, this will be the first in what would be a series of Ormandy Columbia boxes to encompass the stereo material as well, but I have no hint that this is how they'll proceed.

Mark Obert-Thorn

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Jan 6, 2021, 11:43:08 AMJan 6
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On Wednesday, January 6, 2021 at 2:05:45 AM UTC-5, Richard Kaplan wrote:
> Robert Russ of Sony told me months ago that he was concentrating on mono Columbias, and there's been no indication from Sony that this will be a curated box with a mixture of mono and stereo recordings. So Distler is probably correct. In the best case, this will be the first in what would be a series of Ormandy Columbia boxes to encompass the stereo material as well, but I have no hint that this is how they'll proceed.

I just contacted Jed Distler about this, and he said that he was not the source of the "all-mono" report regarding this set, and that he has no idea as to what is going to be included in it. So I guess we will learn in the coming months what Sony has planned when they roll out the details. The subtitle of the set from the German website listing mentioned earlier is "The Columbia Legacy", so I would assume it doesn't include any Victor 78s or RCA stereos.

Mark O-T

RiRiIII

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Jan 6, 2021, 11:52:05 AMJan 6
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This info came from "Jed Distler" in a FB Group 2 weeks ago as follows:

"Jed Distler:
It’s the complete mono recordings. Not sure if that includes the 78s as well, though."

drh8h

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Jan 6, 2021, 2:30:24 PMJan 6
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Mark, just keep your Ormandy RCA Victor series going on Pristine, and I will be happy. I hope it sells so maybe you can have a go at the Minneapolis recordings, too. I have encountered some of the 78s LvB 4, Sibelius 1, but mostly very worn copies. Somebody liked them!

Dennis

Kerrison

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Jan 7, 2021, 5:52:08 AMJan 7
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> > Mark O-T
> Mark, just keep your Ormandy RCA Victor series going on Pristine, and I will be happy. I hope it sells so maybe you can have a go at the Minneapolis recordings, too. I have encountered some of the 78s LvB 4, Sibelius 1, but mostly very worn copies. Somebody liked them!
>
> Dennis


The 'Philadelphia Area Archives Research Portal' has a section entitled "Eugene Ormandy collection of test pressings and private recordings." If you click this link below and scroll down to "Collection Inventory" you get an enormous list of them in alphabetical order of composers. One caught my eye at the bottom, the US Premiere of the Vaughan Williams 8th Symphony on 5 October 1956. Does anyone know if this broadcast recording has ever found its way onto a CD somewhere? ...

http://dla.library.upenn.edu/dla/pacscl/ead.html?q=Ormandy&id=PACSCL_UPENN_RBML_PUSpMsColl440&

John Fowler

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Jan 12, 2021, 8:29:54 AMJan 12
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Holy Crap!
Apparently this actually will be a 120 CD box of all Ormandy's mono recordings.
I just hope that poor sales won't affect the release of an Ormandy stereo box.
Don't get me wrong - I will definitely get this mono box, but it seems like a questionable marketing decision by Sony.
https://www.amazon.fr/Eugene-Ormandy-Columbia-Legacy-Ormandy/dp/B08QRXT715/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&dchild=1&keywords=ormandy&qid=1610438837&s=music&sr=1-1&fbclid=IwAR0kf66NYKXvVGRx8uPOHxw2ts7zYuF2mdmRqUaCi9VfZBe8a55If5SBu0w

drh8h

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Jan 12, 2021, 8:46:35 AMJan 12
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I presume you are saying mono Columbias? That is reason number one for me to get it. I am not a big Ormandy fan, but the majority of his Columbia stereos have been available for years, either in U.S. or JP pressings, whereas the monos have been mostly issued only privately or not at all.

DH

mswd...@gmail.com

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Jan 12, 2021, 9:10:40 AMJan 12
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On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 7:29:54 AM UTC-6, John Fowler wrote:
> Holy Crap!
> Apparently this actually will be a 120 CD box of all Ormandy's mono recordings.

Hmm- if they are including that Moldau LP, some of those recordings are from '58 and would be stereo, right? Judging by the picture, there doesn't seem to be anything from '60 or later, but I wonder if there won't be a handful of stereo recordings.

drh8h

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Jan 12, 2021, 9:17:42 AMJan 12
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Ormandy discography: http://ormandy.html.xdomain.jp/orchestra.html

The Moldau was early 1956 and is doubtless mono only. Columbia was very late to the stereo party, just like its affiliated label Philips. If I find a Columbia stereo, I usually assume it is no earlier than 1957.

DH

wkasimer

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Jan 12, 2021, 9:31:42 AMJan 12
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On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 9:17:42 AM UTC-5, drh8h wrote:

> Ormandy discography: http://ormandy.html.xdomain.jp/orchestra.html

This looks rather incomplete....

JohnA

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Jan 12, 2021, 9:38:40 AMJan 12
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Index to the discography, which includes symphonies, concertos, etc:
http://ormandy.html.xdomain.jp/ormandy_disk_e.html

mswd...@gmail.com

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Jan 12, 2021, 9:56:40 AMJan 12
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Well that'll teach you to trust Discogs. I already knew about the discography, so call me lazy.

Phl Maestro

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Jan 12, 2021, 10:09:00 AMJan 12
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Swan Lake highlights recorded in mono at Boston's Symphony Hall in 1956 is another one I'm eager to hear.

Frank Berger

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Jan 12, 2021, 10:19:04 AMJan 12
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With the title "The Columbia Legacy" one would expect it to
include mono and stereo recordings. But Sony released a
10-CD original jackets collection in 2008, that I am
guessing is all the stereo albums Ormandy released on Columbia.

fomalhaut

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Jan 12, 2021, 10:55:53 AMJan 12
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Content of the Original Jackets Box
fomalhaut

Disc 1 Respighi: The Pines of Rome, The Fountains of Rome, Roman Festivals
Disc 2 Moussorsky/Ravel: Pictures at an Exhibition/ Rimsky-Korsakov: Scheherazade
Disc 3 Rachmaninoff: Symphony No. 2, Vocalise
Disc 4 Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 5, Serenade for Strings
Disc 5 Bartok: Concerto for Orchestra, The Miraculous Manderin (Suite), Two Pictures
Disc 6 Mendelssohn & Tchaikovsky: Violin Concerti (with Isaac Stern)
Disc 7 Shostakovich: Symphony No. 1, Cello Concerto (with Mstislav Rostropovich)
Disc 8/9 Bach: Orchestral Transcriptions/ "The Bach Album"
Disc 10 "The Romantic Philadelphia Strings" including short works by Barber, Grieg, Tchaikovsky, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams and more




Phl Maestro

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Jan 12, 2021, 11:44:21 AMJan 12
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On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 10:19:04 AM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:

> With the title "The Columbia Legacy" one would expect it to
> include mono and stereo recordings. But Sony released a
> 10-CD original jackets collection in 2008, that I am
> guessing is all the stereo albums Ormandy released on Columbia.

Yes, but if you zoom in on the photo with the Amazon France listing I posted on the other thread before noticing this one, you'll see that the album covers are almost all for mono recordings. So I think we're in luck this time.

Phl Maestro

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Jan 12, 2021, 11:46:37 AMJan 12
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Lawrence Chalmers

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Jan 12, 2021, 12:14:45 PMJan 12
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Is there a detailed list of recordings available somewhere?

Phl Maestro

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Jan 12, 2021, 12:30:22 PMJan 12
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I don't believe there is. The photograph with the album covers is progress, but a listing would be nice.

Frank Berger

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Jan 12, 2021, 1:22:42 PMJan 12
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I thought my post indicated I thought they were all mono.

Reinhold Gliere

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Jan 12, 2021, 1:49:21 PMJan 12
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On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 10:19:04 AM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
Your guess isn't worth a reply.

mswd...@gmail.com

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Jan 12, 2021, 1:51:51 PMJan 12
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On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 9:19:04 AM UTC-6, Frank Berger wrote:
> With the title "The Columbia Legacy" one would expect it to
> include mono and stereo recordings. But Sony released a
> 10-CD original jackets collection in 2008, that I am
> guessing is all the stereo albums Ormandy released on Columbia.

Taking my own chance to misunderstand, are you saying that all of Ormandy's stereo Columbias would fit on 10 CDs? No way...

Frank Berger

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Jan 12, 2021, 3:46:24 PMJan 12
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Should I have said "educated guess?"

That my speculation should receive such a rude response is
confusing.

Unless it was a joke. But I'm not smart enough to venture a
guess about that.

Frank Berger

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Jan 12, 2021, 3:50:54 PMJan 12
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That's pretty much what I thought. I guess that's wrong
seeing as Ormandy recorded for Columbia from the onset of
the stereo era until 1968 when he switched to RCA. Not the
first time I've been wrong. Was there a logic behind the
items selected for the "Original Jackets" set?

John Fowler

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Jan 12, 2021, 3:56:27 PMJan 12
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I wonder if the complete 1951 recording of Virgil Thomson's Five Blake Songs will be included.
One song was censored when the songs were reissued on a CRI LP in 1979, apparently with the composer's consent.
This censorship was repeated on the Bay Cities CD.
https://www.amazon.com/Thomson-Pictures-Portraits-Bloch-Jewish/dp/B00000DPEF/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=thomson+ormandy&qid=1610484273&s=music&sr=1-5
Excerpt from review by Discophage:
"As the liner notes explain, the Four Blake Songs from 1951 were originally Five when they came out on Columbia ML 4919 (with the Three Pictures).
The fifth, "The Little Black Boy", was discarded when the cycle was reissued on CRI in 1979, because of its blatant racism - a deletion endorsed by the composer - and this Bay Cities CD is drawn from that CRI LP."

Frank Berger

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Jan 12, 2021, 4:57:52 PMJan 12
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If that apparently offensive song was censored in 1979, I
don't think it's likely to be restored in 2021, do you?

John Fowler

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Jan 12, 2021, 5:45:25 PMJan 12
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It's part of the Ormandy Legacy

Joseph Serraglio

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Jan 12, 2021, 6:45:34 PMJan 12
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The original Columbia LP ML 4919 was ripped by me some years ago, remastered by Buster and posted on his Big Ten-inch blog where I believe it is still available..

Frank Berger

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Jan 12, 2021, 7:08:32 PMJan 12
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> ?

Sure, but since when are album titles accurate? Besides,
the word "legacy" doesn't seem to imply "everything." If
"Original Jackets" can be selective, so can "Columbia
Legacy," even though it seems they should be comprehensive.

Frank Berger

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Jan 12, 2021, 7:50:00 PMJan 12
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The Ormandy/Harrell Blake Songs, including "Little Black
Boy" can be heard here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtC2YqDhr-Q

I think I asked this once before - I can't figure out out
how to download from Buster's site.

Frank Berger

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Jan 12, 2021, 8:10:33 PMJan 12
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Whether "Little Black Boy" is racist in any way depends on
you interpret the words.

The way I read them was that Blake is portraying "Blackness"
as a disability, not inherent, but because of white racism.
Perhaps they can be interpreted differently. I suppose
you'd have to ask Blake.

*********************8

My mother bore me in the southern wild,
And I am black, but O! my soul is white;
White as an angel is the English child:
But I am black as if bereav'd of light.

My mother taught me underneath a tree
And sitting down before the heat of day,
She took me on her lap and kissed me,
And pointing to the east began to say.

Look on the rising sun: there God does live
And gives his light, and gives his heat away.
And flowers and trees and beasts and men receive
Comfort in morning joy in the noonday.

And we are put on earth a little space,
That we may learn to bear the beams of love,
And these black bodies and this sun-burnt face
Is but a cloud, and like a shady grove.

For when our souls have learn'd the heat to bear
The cloud will vanish we shall hear his voice.
Saying: come out from the grove my love & care,
And round my golden tent like lambs rejoice.

Thus did my mother say and kissed me,
And thus I say to little English boy.
When I from black and he from white cloud free,
And round the tent of God like lambs we joy:

Ill shade him from the heat till he can bear,
To lean in joy upon our fathers knee.
And then I'll stand and stroke his silver hair,
And be like him and he will then love me.


Joseph Serraglio

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Jan 13, 2021, 4:17:09 AMJan 13
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Here is the link to Columbus ML 4919 from Big Ten-Inch Record. I”m sure Buster won’t mind my posting it here since it was my rip originally.

https://mega.nz/#!2Ms3BRqA!AoQNtxX9BIA8_kvWG0FjNjIjz07ZKLBnLoiT69egpF8

mswd...@gmail.com

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Jan 13, 2021, 3:22:51 PMJan 13
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