Eugene Ormandy - The Columbia Legacy 120 CDs

[RiRiIII]

Coming.

https://www.amazon.de/Eugene-Ormandy-Columbia-Legacy-Ormandy/dp/B08QRXT715/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&qid=1608265263&refinements=p_n_feature_five_browse-bin%3A379148011&rnid=332670031&s=music-classical&sr=1-6&tag=shforums.de-21

[mswd...@gmail.com]

On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 4:22:46 AM UTC-6, RiRiIII wrote:
> Coming.
>
> https://www.amazon.de/Eugene-Ormandy-Columbia-Legacy-Ormandy/dp/B08QRXT715/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&qid=1608265263&refinements=p_n_feature_five_browse-bin%3A379148011&rnid=332670031&s=music-classical&sr=1-6&tag=shforums.de-21

Hooray!

[drh8h]

That is great news for Ormandy admirers and those like myself who are curious. Hoping for remasterings of some of the items already issued on CD. Judging from past performance, we may be waiting for many months!

DH

[RiRiIII]

Can you guess if 120 cds are enough for all his 78s, mono, stereo Columbia recordings?

I read that he made 1222 recordings with the Philhadelphia O. for both Columbia and RCA. I do not have the Book by Kaplan though, where this info comes from.

[drh8h]

Presumably the discs will be well filled, so we are talking about 150+ hours of material. There are going to be a few big works in it never before officially on CD, like the German Requiem and B Minor Mass, unless somebody forgets them. The Mozart Oboe Quartet from Prades was "forgotten" in the Stern set. As for numbers, depends on how "recording" is defined. When the Szell box was issued, for purposes of claiming how many "recordings" were remastered, for instance, each Slavonic Dance was counted as one "recording." So was each overture that appeared on the same record. Ormandy did his share and maybe more of "Pops" type pieces, so hard to say.

DH

[Frank Berger]

On 12/18/2020 8:41 AM, drh8h wrote:
> On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 8:26:14 AM UTC-5, RiRiIII wrote:
>> On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 3:19:38 PM UTC+2, drh8h wrote:
>>> On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 7:28:10 AM UTC-5, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 4:22:46 AM UTC-6, RiRiIII wrote:
>>>>> Coming.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.amazon.de/Eugene-Ormandy-Columbia-Legacy-Ormandy/dp/B08QRXT715/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&qid=1608265263&refinements=p_n_feature_five_browse-bin%3A379148011&rnid=332670031&s=music-classical&sr=1-6&tag=shforums.de-21
>>>>
>>>> Hooray!
>>> That is great news for Ormandy admirers and those like myself who are curious. Hoping for remasterings of some of the items already issued on CD. Judging from past performance, we may be waiting for many months!
>>>
>>> DH
>> Can you guess if 120 cds are enough for all his 78s, mono, stereo Columbia recordings?
>>
>> I read that he made 1222 recordings with the Philhadelphia O. for both Columbia and RCA. I do not have the Book by Kaplan though, where this info comes from.
>
> Presumably the discs will be well filled, so we are talking about 150+ hours of material. There are going to be a few big works in it never before officially on CD, like the German Requiem and B Minor Mass, >unless somebody forgets them. The Mozart Oboe Quartet from Prades was "forgotten" in the Stern set.

They should have looked in Perpignon, not Prades.

[drh8h]

You're right again.

[Frank Berger]

I know little. I look stuff up.

[Precious Roy]

At last!

[John Fowler]

Actually they should have looked in Perpignan not Perpignon.

[vhorowitz]

That catch shows great perpignacity🤔

[wanwan]

According to Jed Distler, mono recordings only. So, 1944-1958 roughly.

Eric

[RiRiIII]

Eric,

the 78s were made for RCA (Minneapolis and Philadelphia), if I get it right. So indeed these are excluded.

I think the first one is Beethoven's 7th in 1944 up to the first stereo (1958, Respighi - the first stereo Columbia LP).


Alex

[drh8h]

Well, just remember Pristine Classical has a series in progress of the Ormandy/Philadelphia/RCA 78s transferred by Mark Obert-Thorn. Four discs worth already. Hard to imagine them being done much better. The second volume has the rare Mozart Divertimento recording, one of those which the record company stupidly mixed 10 and 12 inch discs.

Dennis

[RiRiIII]

Question: During the late-60s/70s/80s PO & Ormandy were recording simultaneously for both RCA and Columbia. Even EMI?

[RiRiIII]

I see that he recorded for Columbia up to 1969 (Sibelius with Stern).

[Mark Obert-Thorn]

On Saturday, December 19, 2020 at 11:17:14 AM UTC-5, RiRiIII wrote:
> Question: During the late-60s/70s/80s PO & Ormandy were recording simultaneously for both RCA and Columbia. Even EMI?

In the late '70s/early '80s, Ormandy and the PO recorded for RCA, Columbia (his last recording, cello concertos by Shostakovich and Kabalevsky with Yo-Yo Ma in 1982), EMI, Delos (Tchaikovsky 5th and 6th) and Telarc (Saint-Saens Organ Symphony).

Mark O-T

[Richard Kaplan]

The Columbia contract ended in May, 1968; the last work recorded was the Brahms First Symphony. Eight days later they were recording for RCA. The Sibelius with Stern the following year was a one-off.

[Joseph Serraglio]

On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 5:22:46 AM UTC-5, RiRiIII wrote:
> Coming.
>
> https://www.amazon.de/Eugene-Ormandy-Columbia-Legacy-Ormandy/dp/B08QRXT715/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&qid=1608265263&refinements=p_n_feature_five_browse-bin%3A379148011&rnid=332670031&s=music-classical&sr=1-6&tag=shforums.de-21

Does anyone have more details about this release or it’s status? I can’t find it mentioned anywhere else..

[JohnA]

I remember seeing late last year an "Eugene Ormandy The Concerto Recordings" 98 disc box somewhere, and I even copied a UPC number, 0190758199429, but it never appeared.

[Frank Berger]

Among the mysteries of the universe is why there is total
disarray in the announcing and advertising of classical
music releases.

[Mr. Mike]

On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 06:41:46 -0800 (PST), JohnA <jano...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>I remember seeing late last year an "Eugene Ormandy The Concerto Recordings"
>98 disc box somewhere, and I even copied a UPC number, 0190758199429, but
> it never appeared.

There was this Ormandy concerto box (only 3 CDs):

https://www.amazon.com/Eugene-Ormandy-Conducts-Mozart-Concertos/dp/B0713MZWQN

[Stefan Huber]

And now with a definite date: 3/26/2021

https://www.saturn.de/de/product/_e...dy-the-columbia-legacy-sinfon-cd-2709093.html

[raymond....@gmail.com]

Advertising space costs money, and classical music is only a niche part of the total music industry. With only a few specialized opportunities such as magazines (not many) and newsgroups, it is left to CM devotees to dig up information for themselves. It is there, but needs effort to find it.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Frank Berger]

If I had wondered why the U.S postal system is in disarray
and you had answered extreme load (greater than the normal
seasonal peak for obvious reasons) and staffing problems due
to Covid-19, I would have accepted that.

Unfortunately, that's not what I am wondering about. You
answer, while correct in so far as it goes, doesn't go far
enough.

[raymond....@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, 22 December 2020 at 12:15:40 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:

Then time must be so abundantly yours, that you can engage in such precious pedantry, that you should have enough time to fill in any number of spaces, on a very large set of subjects, and therefore not bother posing questions that seem to satisfy your ambiguities, whilst requiring others to be mind readers.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Sol L. Siegel]

So was the 1982 Yo-Yo Ma disc. It was not only Ormandy's last recording
but the last recording done in the Scottish Rite Cathedral on North
Broad Street, the Orchestra's preferred recording venue after about 1960.
Shortly afterward it was demolished for a parking garage for the
Hahnemann University Hospital - itself since shuttered.

- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Frank Berger]

Never mind.

[RiRiIII]

Discography of Eugene Ormandy (1899-1985)
http://ormandy.html.xdomain.jp/ormandy_disk_e.html

I did a draft quick calculation using an excel sheet for the Symphonies and Concertos and 75min cd duration:

Symphonies & Concertos - Columbia mono: 43 cds
Symphonies & Concertos - Columbia stereo: 69 cds
Symphonies & Concertos - Columbia Total: 112 cds

On one hand if the box carries only the mono recordings, I cannot imagine that the remaining monophonic Columbia orchestral/vocal recordings [I will calculate them too later] can be on 77 CDs... On the other hand, these ones cannot only be good for 8 cds... We ll see. Perhaps the box will not carry 120 cds after all. Or the data/my calculation is wrong...

NB:
Regarding RCA:

Symphonies & Concertos - RCA mono: 10 cds
Symphonies & Concertos - RCA stereo: 32 cds

[Richard Kaplan]

I think your premise is incorrect. The set will almost certainly be in "Complete Album" format, with CDs mostly having the same contents as the 12-inch LPs. This works out to somewhere above 108 CDs if you combine 10-inch LPs and the handful of items from 78s that were not issued on LP at all. So 120 is a plausible number for the mono Columbias. As for the stereo Columbias, there were over 200 LPs, making it a long shot for Sony to issue those complete in a box; the Japanese Sony Ormandy edition ran to some 75 CDs and includes well under half of the total Columbia stereo recordings.

[John Fowler]

Are we absolutely certain the new Ormandy box will be mono recordings only?
The average Ormandy admirer strikes me as being hooked on the "Philadelphia Sound" as much as the conductor's interpretations.
Ormandy's biggest LP sales were in the first ten years of stereo.
Columbia marketed his recordings as Hi-fi Stereo Spectaculars.
Are there enough connoisseurs out there to justify a 120 CD box of his mono recordings?

[Frank Berger]

Earlier in the thread someone said that Jed Distler had said
it was mono only. The fact that the title "The Columbia
Legacy" seems inconsistent with the set being mono only is
something only a record producer could explain. Or Distler
was wrong. It doesn't say "complete" legacy, so 120 CDs of
selected mono and stereo recordings seems plausible too.

[drh8h]

Given there is no design of the box shown and no release date, we might actually have it in a year. Box sets are not coming out at the rate they were before COVID and with the situation worsening, I cannot imagine this is a priority item for what is likely to be constrained manufacturing resources.

DH

[RiRiIII]

This seems logical. Like the Walter Box. With a duration of 45 or 50 min per CD my excel file results in: 65 or 72 CDs Columbia Mono Symphonies+Concerti

So we need another 48 to 55 CDs with orchestral and vocal works to complete the 120 mono Columbia CDs.

[Richard Kaplan]

Robert Russ of Sony told me months ago that he was concentrating on mono Columbias, and there's been no indication from Sony that this will be a curated box with a mixture of mono and stereo recordings. So Distler is probably correct. In the best case, this will be the first in what would be a series of Ormandy Columbia boxes to encompass the stereo material as well, but I have no hint that this is how they'll proceed.

[Mark Obert-Thorn]

On Wednesday, January 6, 2021 at 2:05:45 AM UTC-5, Richard Kaplan wrote:
> Robert Russ of Sony told me months ago that he was concentrating on mono Columbias, and there's been no indication from Sony that this will be a curated box with a mixture of mono and stereo recordings. So Distler is probably correct. In the best case, this will be the first in what would be a series of Ormandy Columbia boxes to encompass the stereo material as well, but I have no hint that this is how they'll proceed.

I just contacted Jed Distler about this, and he said that he was not the source of the "all-mono" report regarding this set, and that he has no idea as to what is going to be included in it. So I guess we will learn in the coming months what Sony has planned when they roll out the details. The subtitle of the set from the German website listing mentioned earlier is "The Columbia Legacy", so I would assume it doesn't include any Victor 78s or RCA stereos.

Mark O-T

[RiRiIII]

This info came from "Jed Distler" in a FB Group 2 weeks ago as follows:

"Jed Distler:
It’s the complete mono recordings. Not sure if that includes the 78s as well, though."

[drh8h]

Mark, just keep your Ormandy RCA Victor series going on Pristine, and I will be happy. I hope it sells so maybe you can have a go at the Minneapolis recordings, too. I have encountered some of the 78s LvB 4, Sibelius 1, but mostly very worn copies. Somebody liked them!

Dennis

[Kerrison]

> > Mark O-T
> Mark, just keep your Ormandy RCA Victor series going on Pristine, and I will be happy. I hope it sells so maybe you can have a go at the Minneapolis recordings, too. I have encountered some of the 78s LvB 4, Sibelius 1, but mostly very worn copies. Somebody liked them!
>
> Dennis

The 'Philadelphia Area Archives Research Portal' has a section entitled "Eugene Ormandy collection of test pressings and private recordings." If you click this link below and scroll down to "Collection Inventory" you get an enormous list of them in alphabetical order of composers. One caught my eye at the bottom, the US Premiere of the Vaughan Williams 8th Symphony on 5 October 1956. Does anyone know if this broadcast recording has ever found its way onto a CD somewhere? ...

http://dla.library.upenn.edu/dla/pacscl/ead.html?q=Ormandy&id=PACSCL_UPENN_RBML_PUSpMsColl440&

[John Fowler]

Holy Crap!
Apparently this actually will be a 120 CD box of all Ormandy's mono recordings.
I just hope that poor sales won't affect the release of an Ormandy stereo box.
Don't get me wrong - I will definitely get this mono box, but it seems like a questionable marketing decision by Sony.
https://www.amazon.fr/Eugene-Ormandy-Columbia-Legacy-Ormandy/dp/B08QRXT715/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&dchild=1&keywords=ormandy&qid=1610438837&s=music&sr=1-1&fbclid=IwAR0kf66NYKXvVGRx8uPOHxw2ts7zYuF2mdmRqUaCi9VfZBe8a55If5SBu0w

[drh8h]

I presume you are saying mono Columbias? That is reason number one for me to get it. I am not a big Ormandy fan, but the majority of his Columbia stereos have been available for years, either in U.S. or JP pressings, whereas the monos have been mostly issued only privately or not at all.

DH

[mswd...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 7:29:54 AM UTC-6, John Fowler wrote:
> Holy Crap!
> Apparently this actually will be a 120 CD box of all Ormandy's mono recordings.

Hmm- if they are including that Moldau LP, some of those recordings are from '58 and would be stereo, right? Judging by the picture, there doesn't seem to be anything from '60 or later, but I wonder if there won't be a handful of stereo recordings.

[drh8h]

Ormandy discography: http://ormandy.html.xdomain.jp/orchestra.html

The Moldau was early 1956 and is doubtless mono only. Columbia was very late to the stereo party, just like its affiliated label Philips. If I find a Columbia stereo, I usually assume it is no earlier than 1957.

DH

[wkasimer]

On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 9:17:42 AM UTC-5, drh8h wrote:

> Ormandy discography: http://ormandy.html.xdomain.jp/orchestra.html

This looks rather incomplete....

[JohnA]

Index to the discography, which includes symphonies, concertos, etc:
http://ormandy.html.xdomain.jp/ormandy_disk_e.html

[mswd...@gmail.com]

Well that'll teach you to trust Discogs. I already knew about the discography, so call me lazy.

[Phl Maestro]

Swan Lake highlights recorded in mono at Boston's Symphony Hall in 1956 is another one I'm eager to hear.

[Frank Berger]

With the title "The Columbia Legacy" one would expect it to
include mono and stereo recordings. But Sony released a
10-CD original jackets collection in 2008, that I am
guessing is all the stereo albums Ormandy released on Columbia.

[fomalhaut]

Content of the Original Jackets Box
fomalhaut

Disc 1 Respighi: The Pines of Rome, The Fountains of Rome, Roman Festivals
Disc 2 Moussorsky/Ravel: Pictures at an Exhibition/ Rimsky-Korsakov: Scheherazade
Disc 3 Rachmaninoff: Symphony No. 2, Vocalise
Disc 4 Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 5, Serenade for Strings
Disc 5 Bartok: Concerto for Orchestra, The Miraculous Manderin (Suite), Two Pictures
Disc 6 Mendelssohn & Tchaikovsky: Violin Concerti (with Isaac Stern)
Disc 7 Shostakovich: Symphony No. 1, Cello Concerto (with Mstislav Rostropovich)
Disc 8/9 Bach: Orchestral Transcriptions/ "The Bach Album"
Disc 10 "The Romantic Philadelphia Strings" including short works by Barber, Grieg, Tchaikovsky, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams and more

[Phl Maestro]

On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 10:19:04 AM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:

> With the title "The Columbia Legacy" one would expect it to
> include mono and stereo recordings. But Sony released a
> 10-CD original jackets collection in 2008, that I am
> guessing is all the stereo albums Ormandy released on Columbia.

Yes, but if you zoom in on the photo with the Amazon France listing I posted on the other thread before noticing this one, you'll see that the album covers are almost all for mono recordings. So I think we're in luck this time.

[Phl Maestro]

Here it is again: https://www.amazon.fr/Eugene-Ormandy-Columbia-Legacy-Ormandy/dp/B08QRXT715/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&dchild=1&keywords=ormandy&qid=1610438837&s=music&sr=1-1&fbclid=IwAR0kf66NYKXvVGRx8uPOHxw2ts7zYuF2mdmRqUaCi9VfZBe8a55If5SBu0w

[Lawrence Chalmers]

Is there a detailed list of recordings available somewhere?

[Phl Maestro]

I don't believe there is. The photograph with the album covers is progress, but a listing would be nice.

[Frank Berger]

I thought my post indicated I thought they were all mono.

[Reinhold Gliere]

On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 10:19:04 AM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:

Your guess isn't worth a reply.

[mswd...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 9:19:04 AM UTC-6, Frank Berger wrote:
> With the title "The Columbia Legacy" one would expect it to
> include mono and stereo recordings. But Sony released a
> 10-CD original jackets collection in 2008, that I am
> guessing is all the stereo albums Ormandy released on Columbia.

Taking my own chance to misunderstand, are you saying that all of Ormandy's stereo Columbias would fit on 10 CDs? No way...

[Frank Berger]

Should I have said "educated guess?"

That my speculation should receive such a rude response is
confusing.

Unless it was a joke. But I'm not smart enough to venture a
guess about that.

[Frank Berger]

That's pretty much what I thought. I guess that's wrong
seeing as Ormandy recorded for Columbia from the onset of
the stereo era until 1968 when he switched to RCA. Not the
first time I've been wrong. Was there a logic behind the
items selected for the "Original Jackets" set?

[John Fowler]

I wonder if the complete 1951 recording of Virgil Thomson's Five Blake Songs will be included.
One song was censored when the songs were reissued on a CRI LP in 1979, apparently with the composer's consent.
This censorship was repeated on the Bay Cities CD.
https://www.amazon.com/Thomson-Pictures-Portraits-Bloch-Jewish/dp/B00000DPEF/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=thomson+ormandy&qid=1610484273&s=music&sr=1-5
Excerpt from review by Discophage:
"As the liner notes explain, the Four Blake Songs from 1951 were originally Five when they came out on Columbia ML 4919 (with the Three Pictures).
The fifth, "The Little Black Boy", was discarded when the cycle was reissued on CRI in 1979, because of its blatant racism - a deletion endorsed by the composer - and this Bay Cities CD is drawn from that CRI LP."

[Frank Berger]

If that apparently offensive song was censored in 1979, I
don't think it's likely to be restored in 2021, do you?

[John Fowler]

It's part of the Ormandy Legacy

[Joseph Serraglio]

The original Columbia LP ML 4919 was ripped by me some years ago, remastered by Buster and posted on his Big Ten-inch blog where I believe it is still available..

[Frank Berger]

> ?

Sure, but since when are album titles accurate? Besides,
the word "legacy" doesn't seem to imply "everything." If
"Original Jackets" can be selective, so can "Columbia
Legacy," even though it seems they should be comprehensive.

[Frank Berger]

The Ormandy/Harrell Blake Songs, including "Little Black
Boy" can be heard here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtC2YqDhr-Q

I think I asked this once before - I can't figure out out
how to download from Buster's site.

[Frank Berger]

Whether "Little Black Boy" is racist in any way depends on
you interpret the words.

The way I read them was that Blake is portraying "Blackness"
as a disability, not inherent, but because of white racism.
Perhaps they can be interpreted differently. I suppose
you'd have to ask Blake.

*********************8

My mother bore me in the southern wild,
And I am black, but O! my soul is white;
White as an angel is the English child:
But I am black as if bereav'd of light.

My mother taught me underneath a tree
And sitting down before the heat of day,
She took me on her lap and kissed me,
And pointing to the east began to say.

Look on the rising sun: there God does live
And gives his light, and gives his heat away.
And flowers and trees and beasts and men receive
Comfort in morning joy in the noonday.

And we are put on earth a little space,
That we may learn to bear the beams of love,
And these black bodies and this sun-burnt face
Is but a cloud, and like a shady grove.

For when our souls have learn'd the heat to bear
The cloud will vanish we shall hear his voice.
Saying: come out from the grove my love & care,
And round my golden tent like lambs rejoice.

Thus did my mother say and kissed me,
And thus I say to little English boy.
When I from black and he from white cloud free,
And round the tent of God like lambs we joy:

Ill shade him from the heat till he can bear,
To lean in joy upon our fathers knee.
And then I'll stand and stroke his silver hair,
And be like him and he will then love me.

[Joseph Serraglio]

Here is the link to Columbus ML 4919 from Big Ten-Inch Record. I”m sure Buster won’t mind my posting it here since it was my rip originally.

https://mega.nz/#!2Ms3BRqA!AoQNtxX9BIA8_kvWG0FjNjIjz07ZKLBnLoiT69egpF8

[mswd...@gmail.com]

No idea- they did one for Szell and Bernstein, too, if I recall. Just a random assortment of stuff someone liked, I guess.

[JohnA]

They were released before the trend of complete album collections began.

[Jerry]

A decade ago (c. 2010) it was included in the new BMOP recording
[BMOP 1018] with apparently no negative repercussion. That was
then and this is now. It'll be interesting to see what Sony does.
I'll guess that they'll include it with a prominent and carefully
worded disclaimer, like what Disney is reported to be doing with
some of its older titles.

Jerry

[Bob Harper]

No. To the contrary, we might now expect a movement to 'cancel' Virgil
Thomson altogether, given society's current state of insanity.

Bob Harper

[Bob Harper]

Seems to me this is in Blake's way a response to Chapter I of The Song
of Solomon, and not racist except to those who see everything through
the lens of race. It's a beautiful poem.

Bob Harper

[Joseph Serraglio]

The BMOP recording:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmxtBejlIaU

[mswd...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:32:16 PM UTC-6, Bob Harper wrote:

> Seems to me this is in Blake's way a response to Chapter I of The Song
> of Solomon, and not racist except to those who see everything through
> the lens of race. It's a beautiful poem.
>
> Bob Harper

I wonder if you could see the benefit of proposing that the poem is not racist, period, without also offering the notion that there are people who "see everything through the lens of race". I find that notion cartoonish, condescending and ugly. We've had this talk before, and you offered that you were going to tame these instincts. I would prefer to think about your ideas about the poem without wondering what kind of person takes swipes the people he doesn't like so quickly. This is just such an opportunity.

[Frank Berger]

Since the poem has, in fact, already been censored twice, it
seems entirely appropriate to talk about why. It sounds like
you don't want to hear about stuff like identity politics,
political correctness and the like. They exist, and the
harm they do exceeds whatever societal benefits would accrue
from their helping increased racial tolerance.

[mswd...@gmail.com]

On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 2:14:16 PM UTC-6, Frank Berger wrote:
> Since the poem has, in fact, already been censored twice, it
> seems entirely appropriate to talk about why. It sounds like
> you don't want to hear about stuff like identity politics,
> political correctness and the like. They exist, and the
> harm they do exceeds whatever societal benefits would accrue
> from their helping increased racial tolerance.

The claim that there are "those who see everything through the lens of race" is offensive. I'd wager Harper doesn't know a single person who would claim that. It's his cartoon assessment of those people he's had disagreements with, and his typical attitude is "because I disagree with you, I will simplify and denigrate your beliefs". It's ugly and lazy.

If I recall, the excuse that gets offered is "it's not a serious forum for political sentiments, so don't ask me to be polite or nuanced." And my continued sense in all these cases is that Bob just has a talent throwing broad, thoughtless punches. When you spring to his defense and accept his comments at face value, you do yourself no favors. When you speak for yourself, you are far more thoughtful and careful.

[Steven Bornfeld]

On 1/15/2021 3:14 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
> They exist, and the harm they do exceeds whatever societal benefits
> would accrue from their helping increased racial tolerance.

Maybe you could show your work here. Certainly the identity politics I
saw in Washington a week ago Wednesday made no pretense of tolerance.
My sense is that many who decry identity politics are very selective
with that designation.
That's a perception, not a formal assessment.

[Phl Maestro]

On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 4:22:37 PM UTC-5, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 2:14:16 PM UTC-6, Frank Berger wrote:
> > Since the poem has, in fact, already been censored twice, it
> > seems entirely appropriate to talk about why. It sounds like
> > you don't want to hear about stuff like identity politics,
> > political correctness and the like. They exist, and the
> > harm they do exceeds whatever societal benefits would accrue
> > from their helping increased racial tolerance.
> The claim that there are "those who see everything through the lens of race" is offensive. I'd wager Harper doesn't know a single person who would claim that. It's his cartoon assessment of those people he's had disagreements with, and his typical attitude is "because I disagree with you, I will simplify and denigrate your beliefs". It's ugly and lazy.
>

It may not be the case with those of us who are a bit older, but among younger people on the Left who espouse Critical Race Theory, isn't the goal to insist that "everything be seen through the lens of race?"

[mswd...@gmail.com]

On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 7:18:17 PM UTC-6, Phl Maestro wrote:
> It may not be the case with those of us who are a bit older, but among younger people on the Left who espouse Critical Race Theory, isn't the goal to insist that "everything be seen through the lens of race?"

I'm not sure that is what Harper is talking about, and I'm not willing to see his comments as directed toward a single academic practice. It read as a simple formulation of "it's not racist unless you judge everything through the lens of race," which he seems to think will guarantee condemnation. In short, "anyone who disagrees with me is an extremist". If he's so wise as to the ways the poem - black child, white soul - acquits itself of the stain of this troublesome arrangement, he can't be bothered to mention it.

[Bob Harper]

Thanks, Frank. You've said it better than I could have.

Bob Harper

[mswd...@gmail.com]

On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 2:14:16 PM UTC-6, Frank Berger wrote:
> Since the poem has, in fact, already been censored twice, it
> seems entirely appropriate to talk about why. It sounds like
> you don't want to hear about stuff like identity politics,
> political correctness and the like. They exist, and the
> harm they do exceeds whatever societal benefits would accrue
> from their helping increased racial tolerance.

I think I've spelled out that I don't want to hear about it here. This would be a better place if we all had the modesty to not announce our judgment of what is racist or not, and who is to blame for this or that. You want to discuss it, find a newsgroup devoted to such topics. That applies especially if the speaker is white, comfortable and privileged, but I think it holds true even if you want to insist that your affluence is immaterial to your opinions and interests.

If you really do want to make an offering on a sensitive topic, I'd request the kind of investment of time and detail to make a convincing case, and one that shows attentiveness to the political concerns of others. If you can't manage that, then try to recognize the value of not speaking.

[Bob Harper]

On 1/15/21 1:22 PM, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 2:14:16 PM UTC-6, Frank Berger wrote:
>> Since the poem has, in fact, already been censored twice, it
>> seems entirely appropriate to talk about why. It sounds like
>> you don't want to hear about stuff like identity politics,
>> political correctness and the like. They exist, and the
>> harm they do exceeds whatever societal benefits would accrue
>> from their helping increased racial tolerance.
>
> The claim that there are "those who see everything through the lens of race" is offensive. I'd wager Harper doesn't know a single person who would claim that. It's his cartoon assessment of those people he's had disagreements with, and his typical attitude is "because I disagree with you, I will simplify and denigrate your beliefs". It's ugly and lazy.

Thanks for the condescension. Your smugness is noted.

Bob Harper

[Bob Harper]

You are a real mind reader--except that you are making assumptions about
me that have no basis in fact. That can happen when you don't know someone.

Bob Harper

[Andrew Clarke]

This poem from Blake's 'Songs of Innocence" is only "racist" to people who casually assume that "black" and "white" mean, have always meant, and always will mean, what they meant in Alabama in 1950. And of course there's that current boo-word "English" - would anybody have cared about that US 'Vogue' cover of Kemala Harris if its editor hadn't been English?

In the Blake world, warmth, spontaneity, love, simplicity are good, and cold manipulation, repression and rationalism are bad. "Child" stands for an original freedom and innocence and spontaneity which will be repressed and corrupted by the repressive adult world, especially the world of the Industrial Revolution which was gathering pace in Blake's lifetime.

Cf the same poet's "Jerusalem" which became a second British National Anthem, because Parry didn't understand the implications of

"And was Jerusalem builded here
Among those dark Satanic mills?".

Blake's lines are a rhetorical question, whose answer can only be "Good God, no".

Returning to the current poem, there's a skilfully ironic play on "white" and "black" throughout. The upshot is, that the black child, with his natural warmth and spontaneity, is a lot closer to God than the white child is, despite the fact that to many of Blake's contemporaries, "white" was the colour of good and black was the colour of evil.

But 'white' is also the colour of snow, pure but repressive and hence evil:

"Ah, sunflower weary of time,
That countest the steps of the sun,
Seeking after that sweet golden clime
Where the traveller's journey is done,

Where the youth pined away with desire
And the pale virgin shrouded in snow
Arise from their graves and aspire
Where my sunflower wishes to go."

Nobody was less of a 'racist' than William Blake.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Frank Berger]

On 1/16/2021 7:08 PM, vhorowitz wrote:
> Is it within the realm of possibility that a visit to this thread might, at some point, yield something on the topic of the Ormandy set? I’m sure these discussions are of interest to someone, but it’s kind of a bummer to check for some update on this release and instead find another swath of OT posts.

Is a discussion about the lyrics to a song that might be
included in the Ormandy set off-topic?

[Frank Berger]

Perhaps you should work to make this a moderated group. I'm
sure you would volunteer for the job of moderator and no
right-of-center opinion will be heard again. You wouldn't
even have to tell them to "shut up." You could just cancel
them.

[Bob Harper]

I'm sure he'd love to, Frank. And it rankles that he can't.

Bob Harper

[Andrew Clarke]

On Sunday, January 17, 2021 at 11:08:16 AM UTC+11, vhorowitz wrote:
> Is it within the realm of possibility that a visit to this thread might, at some point, yield something on the topic of the Ormandy set? I’m sure these discussions are of interest to someone, but it’s kind of a bummer to check for some update on this release and instead find another swath of OT posts.

Do you really want people permitting or denying you the right to listen to classical music who are as artistically illiterate as those who censored this particular Blake setting?

I am reminded of the unfortunate bank official who was fired after a black American couple complained to management about his use of the word "denigrate". It really is that stupid.

And remember that there are those on the extreme left who have defined the whole of the classical music tradition as "racist". And if they have their way, the sponsors will disappear and the only way you'll be able to hear orchestras like the Philadelphia will be through boxed sets of former glories.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[mswd...@gmail.com]

It's wishful thinking to believe that others can't draw out a judgment of you because "we don't know you". Perhaps you should stick to having conversations with your friends at the country club. Sticking yourself out in public to offer quick judgments comes with the consequence that people will get a sense of you and your beliefs, however partial. If you write something that leads to a misunderstanding or offense, you have the opportunity to clarify your thoughts and further show who you are. Defending yourself by saying "you don't know me" doesn't free you from this at all.

[mswd...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, January 16, 2021 at 12:54:43 PM UTC-6, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:

> Nobody was less of a 'racist' than William Blake.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

Interesting arguments, but closing with this note of absolutism undermines any claim to reasonability you might have. The idea that in a world of commonplace racisms, Blake was so enlightened that nobody (ever, it seems) was less a racist is just a joke.

[mswd...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, January 16, 2021 at 8:54:30 PM UTC-6, Frank Berger wrote:
> Perhaps you should work to make this a moderated group. I'm
> sure you would volunteer for the job of moderator and no
> right-of-center opinion will be heard again. You wouldn't
> even have to tell them to "shut up." You could just cancel
> them.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't have those interests. What you've offered here is far closer to narcissist fantasy than anything that is likely to happen, and is an argument that I would not have expected from you.

[mswd...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, January 16, 2021 at 11:24:12 PM UTC-6, Bob Harper wrote:
> I'm sure he'd love to, Frank. And it rankles that he can't.
> Bob Harper

These colorful fantasies are a telling expression of your politics and sense of persecution. And, like most of the claims of persecution shared by conservatives, they have no connection to reality.

[Bob Harper]

Your smugness has really become intolerable--and far more disconnected
from reality than anything I've said in this forum. And oh, by the way,
I don't belong to a country club; never have, and have no plans to start.

Bob Harper

[mswd...@gmail.com]

[After Frank emailed me and then told me to not email him- clearly just an error of posting. If he wants his message here, I'll let him put it here.]

You are perfectly free to determine me "unpersuasive" and believe I have contempt for all of conservative thought. That certainly simplifies things for you. Love of simplifications is something worth resisting, I'd say.

I'm disappointed to find you've bought into the idea of "cancel culture" which does precisely what it claims to protest- find reason to silence other people and sidestep discussions of substance. Notice how Jim Jordan claimed that Democrats were impeaching Trump for the second time because they want to "cancel" him? There's not much thinking that goes into a claim like that, and covers him from having to defend anything clearly. He's a coward, and the vending-machine-quality idea of "cancel culture" is his shield. There is nothing about that term that invites reasonable thought.

[mswd...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, January 17, 2021 at 3:02:14 PM UTC-6, Bob Harper wrote:
> > These colorful fantasies are a telling expression of your politics and sense of persecution. And, like most of the claims of persecution shared by conservatives, they have no connection to reality.
>
> Your smugness has really become intolerable--and far more disconnected
> from reality than anything I've said in this forum. And oh, by the way,
> I don't belong to a country club; never have, and have no plans to start.
>
> Bob Harper

At least I'm not lecturing you about how "you don't know me" and that you're trying to be a "mind reader" when you claim it rankles me that I can't cancel you. I say it's laughably wrong and your fantasy, but I can't be surprised that you've drawn up an estimation of my character based on what I've written. I'm not going to play holier-than-thou (or does "smug" appl;y so much more here?) and say "you don't know me". It's all fair play, like it or not.

[Bob Harper]

As it is clear that any response will only encourage your smug (yes)
self satisfaction, I'll leave the field. There ARE people who see
everything through the lens of identity (race, gender, sexual
preference) That you can't see it frankly astonishes me. No further
comment--for now :)

Bob Harper

[Frank Berger]

Yes. It's one thing to deny being one, but to deny that it
exists boggles the mind.

[Andrew Clarke]

On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 9:22:46 PM UTC+11, RiRiIII wrote:
> Coming.
>
> https://www.amazon.de/Eugene-Ormandy-Columbia-Legacy-Ormandy/dp/B08QRXT715/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&qid=1608265263&refinements=p_n_feature_five_browse-bin%3A379148011&rnid=332670031&s=music-classical&sr=1-6&tag=shforums.de-21

I'm not sure where I'd store another 150 CDs, at least not without precipitating a divorce. Mind you, the thought of ripping 120 CDs is a bit staggering. 4 CDs a day for 30 days perhaps.

I wonder if there's any overlap between record collectors (passionate about physical discs) and audiophiles (passionate about sound). The former sounds less expensive. I do wonder what percentage of these enormous collections ever get listened to. On the other hand, I wonder how people with these million-dollar systems can afford to go on buying records to listen to ...

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Frank Berger]

On 1/17/2021 7:15 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 9:22:46 PM UTC+11, RiRiIII wrote:
>> Coming.
>>
>> https://www.amazon.de/Eugene-Ormandy-Columbia-Legacy-Ormandy/dp/B08QRXT715/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&qid=1608265263&refinements=p_n_feature_five_browse-bin%3A379148011&rnid=332670031&s=music-classical&sr=1-6&tag=shforums.de-21
>
> I'm not sure where I'd store another 150 CDs, at least not without precipitating a divorce. Mind you, the thought of ripping 120 CDs is a bit staggering. 4 CDs a day for 30 days perhaps.
>
> I wonder if there's any overlap between record collectors (passionate about physical discs) and audiophiles (passionate about sound).

Some in the latter category may be better characterized as
passionate about equipment.