Audiophile reissue: Krips/LSO Beethoven cycle on Everest
Oscar Williamson
master tapes of this cycle. I'm not familiar with these performances,
but as it was recorded by Bert Whyte I think it's safe to say they are
very well-recorded from the golden age of stereo. Recorded 1959 at
Walthamstow Assembly Hall. Any comments about the performances and
the sound are welcome. Thanks.
Vinyl box lists for $250, HDAD disc $180.
http://www.classicrecords.com/item.cfm?item=SDBR%203065-200G
<<The Everest Recordings of the entire Beethoven cycle with Krips
conducting the LSO are considered by many music critics to be utterly
superb. Using the now famous
35 MM recording decks at Walthamstow Assembly Hall in 1959, Bert Whyte
and team Everest captured in amazing detail, all the nuance and
complexity of the
Beethoven symphonies. Using the original 35MM tapes to do the
transfers reveals how truly wonderful both the performances and the
recordings compare with other
efforts by major labels of the same era. The LP set includes all nine
symphonies spread over 10 discs and includes a bonus 45 rpm disc of
the Egmont Overture
The LP's were mastered and cut on an ALL TUBE cutting system at the
hands of Bernie "The Wizard" Grundman assisted by Len Horowitz
running the 35MM tape machine. All LP's are 200g Super Vinyl Profile
pressings to insure maximum playback fidelity. The discs come in a
beautiful box that includes the original
art from the extremely rare boxed set from Everest along with a 24
page reproduction of the original deluxe edition booklet. This is an
absolute must for serious Beethoven lovers!>>
About HDAD discs:
http://surroundablog.blogs.com/surroundablog/definition_dad_hdad/
<<A recent innovation is a double sided HDAD offering. One side can be
played in your regular DVD player. Flip it over, and you can then take
advantage of better sounding audio in a DVD-A compatible player. You
will find only a limited number of artists, including John Lee Hooker,
Alan Parsons and Pete Townshend on DAD and or HDAD.>>
mark
wrote:
These recordings never did a thing for me, try as I did to like them.
Kerrison
>
> - Show quoted text -
I wonder how the Krips cycle compares with the superb Leibowitz /
Royal Philharmonic cycle of a few years later, produced by Charles
Gerhardt for Readers Digest and engineered by Kenneth Wilkinson. Does
anyone have both sets?
Mike
wrote:
> Classic Records is producing a new boxed set from original Everest
> master tapes of this cycle. I'm not familiar with these performances,
> but as it was recorded by Bert Whyte I think it's safe to say they are
This was my first exposure to Beethoven (and to classical music) when
I was in college (early 60s). The set was only 3 years old at the
time and already available through "Longines Symphonette" and several
other cheapo record-a-month organizations. I was initially
captivated, particularly by the Pastorale. Shortly thereafter, a
savvy dorm-mate exposed me to Toscanini's Beethoven and some by
Klemperer and Munch. I went back to the Krips and quickly became
disenchanged by the lack of tension and drive so necessary for
Beethoven. All the performances were dull and unexciting--even
boring--though in excellent sound. Over the years, this set has
resurfaced on a number of inexpensive, horrible-sounding
resurrections. Maybe if I listened to it anew today, my take would be
different, but I doubt it. Krips' Beethoven Symphonies for me, will
always conjure up images of CHEAP. (Too bad, because his Beethoven
Piano Concertos with Rubinstein had everything this symphonies set
should have had but didn't). The Liebowitz recordings on Chessky, on
the other hand (or the Readers Digest edition) are another thing
entirely--superb performances, well-recorded..
td
Yes.
I own the original Everest LPs as well as a cheapo CD transfer and the
much more recent Everest CD transfer from the original masters.
(perhaps not, however, from the 35 mm film masters)
I also own the German boxed set of Leibowitz's recordings produced in
the 1980s as well as the original LPs produced for Readers Digest and
two separate CD transfers, one from Switzerland, and the other from
Chesky.
Not sure if I will purchase the Classic Records box. $250. is a LOT of
money to shell out, even if I do believe that Bernie Grundman will do
an excellent job.
Both are classic versions of the Beethoven symphonies which were blown
out of the water by the Karajan DG marketing team.
TD
td
The problem is that Krips was a great maestro known for his
interpretation of the Viennese classics - Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven.
Yes, the performances can strike one as "flabby"(my word, please note,
not yours), but so can Bruno Walters and many of the older
performances from the 78 era. Toscanini spoiled a tradition of
Beethoven interpretation, I think; he just followed the tempo
indications in the score rather slavishly and poopoohed all other
interpreters of the music in the process, thus breaking a tradition of
performance which may have lasted for well over a century.
Now we are faced with all these Toscanini wannabes with none of his
particular genius. Fast tempi, little music. And the HIPsters have
only increased the problem as they also add scrawny sounds to the mix.
ARGH!!!
So, I have lots of room for the likes of Krips and Leibowitz and
Klemperer and Walter as well as Toscanini and his imitators like
Karajan, Solti et al.
The Beethoven symphonies are NOT a Formula One circuit as far as I am
aware.
TD
William Sommerwerck
> master tapes of this cycle. I'm not familiar with these performances,
> but as it was recorded by Bert Whyte I think it's safe to say they are
> very well-recorded from the golden age of stereo. Recorded 1959 at
> Walthamstow Assembly Hall. Any comments about the performances
> and the sound are welcome. Thanks.
> Vinyl box lists for $250, HDAD disc $180.
Ah... The /definitive/ London Festival recordings.
This set was widely advertised in music and audio magazines. At a time when
complete Beethoven cycles were uncommon and expensive, the $20 price was
attractive. If the whole set were, like, $10 on CD, I'd give it a shot.
It's interesting that the "high-definition" version is DVD-A, not SACD. But
DVD-A was still viable in 2004.
The Leibowitz Reader's Digest set is still available (I think) on Chesky. It
is, as far as I know, the first "modern" recording -- Leibowitz supposedly
went back to the scores and paid close attention to what was actually
written. It's certainly worth hearing.
William Sommerwerck
> Klemperer and Walter as well as Toscanini and his imitators like
Leibowitz's Beethoven symphonies are hardly "flabby".
Walter's tempi were controversial even 50 years ago. I remember Martin
Bookspan's recommendation of the 7th, where he said that, though Walter
played it a bit slower than others, the performance was nevertheless -- I
don't remember the word, but the British would say "well-sprung".
How is Karajan an imitator of Toscanini?
> The Beethoven symphonies are NOT a Formula One circuit
> as far as I am aware.
I've really got to post my review of the Masur cycle. It's weird.
FredT
Records...its on the Bescol label. The performances are solid,
decently played but hardly exceptional. I do believe them to be a good
introduction to the "9" since they contain no mannerisms or extremisms
and are more of less faithful to the score.
Kalman Rubinson
<grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Classic Records is producing a new boxed set from original Everest
>> master tapes of this cycle.
>It's interesting that the "high-definition" version is DVD-A, not SACD. But
>DVD-A was still viable in 2004.
Probably not even as viable as the LP alternative today. ;-)
Kal
Kimba W Lion
>Vinyl box lists for $250, HDAD disc $180.
Gee, it makes the secondary market prices for the Vanguard/Everest version
seem like a bargain: http://tinyurl.com/KripsVanguard
--
Intelligent Life Is All Around Us
http://intelligentlife.info/
Kimba W Lion
The Bescol set is one of the worst-sounding mutilations of vintage recordings
ever released in CD's 25 year history. There's an inexpensive Madacy version
that's surely better: http://tinyurl.com/KripsMadacy
wkasimer
<norepliesbyem...@norepliesbyemail.com> wrote:
> Gee, it makes the secondary market prices for the Vanguard/Everest version
> seem like a bargain: http://tinyurl.com/KripsVanguard
Damn. I saw a copy of this at PREx last time I was there, for $15,
and left it on the shelf.
Bill
Simon Roberts
@k33g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
[snip]
> Yes, the performances can strike one as "flabby"(my word, please note,
> not yours), but so can Bruno Walters and many of the older
> performances from the 78 era. Toscanini spoiled a tradition of
> Beethoven interpretation, I think; he just followed the tempo
> indications in the score rather slavishly and poopoohed all other
> interpreters of the music in the process, thus breaking a tradition of
> performance which may have lasted for well over a century.
>
> Now we are faced with all these Toscanini wannabes with none of his
> particular genius. Fast tempi, little music. And the HIPsters have
> only increased the problem as they also add scrawny sounds to the mix.
> ARGH!!!
And yet you continue to sing the praises of Dausgaard, who's at least as
fast as Toscanini and HIP-influenced in other ways!
> So, I have lots of room for the likes of Krips and Leibowitz and
> Klemperer and Walter as well as Toscanini and his imitators like
> Karajan, Solti et al.
You think Leibowitz is in the same camp as Klemperer and Walter and that
Solti was a Toscanini imitator?
Simon
Simon Roberts
$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
>> So, I have lots of room for the likes of Krips and Leibowitz and
>> Klemperer and Walter as well as Toscanini and his imitators like
>> Karajan, Solti, et al.
>
> Leibowitz's Beethoven symphonies are hardly "flabby".
>
> Walter's tempi were controversial even 50 years ago. I remember Martin
> Bookspan's recommendation of the 7th, where he said that, though Walter
> played it a bit slower than others, the performance was nevertheless -- I
> don't remember the word, but the British would say "well-sprung".
That's old Walter, though - younger Walter is another matter (faster,
tauter, etc., especially live).
>
> How is Karajan an imitator of Toscanini?
>
He wasn't, of course - though there was conscious influence.
Simon
William Sommerwerck
> vintage recordings ever released in CD's 25 year history.
> There's an inexpensive Madacy version that's surely better:
> http://tinyurl.com/KripsMadacy
If you've seen Madacy's DVDs of out-of-copyright films, you might not be so
quick to say that.
Simon Roberts
news:f0ac2155-45e9-472c...@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:
> I wonder how the Krips cycle compares with the superb Leibowitz /
> Royal Philharmonic cycle of a few years later, produced by Charles
> Gerhardt for Readers Digest and engineered by Kenneth Wilkinson. Does
> anyone have both sets?
They have very little in common - Krips' performances lack speed, drive,
tension and drama and I would be surprised if even those who like relaxed,
laid-back Beethoven would care for the horribly intrusive balance afforded
the trumpets (though maybe the latest remastering has fixed that).
Leibowitz is better recorded (though the timpani are too recessed for my
taste), perhaps better played and, most important, quite different
interpretatively - most obviously, he was one of the first conductors to
take Beethoven's metronome markings seriously in most movements. (I'm not
wild about either set, but given the choice would take Leibowitz any day.)
Simon
Matthew�B.�Tepper
to the San Francisco Symphony.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Paul Penna
"Matthew�B.�Tepper" <oy�@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I hope the packaging of these releases doesn't contain misleading references
> to the San Francisco Symphony.
If so, for historical authenticity purposes it should be special
packaging just for the SF market, as were those post-Belock Everest
repressings. In a perverse-nostalgic kind of way, I kind of wish they
would. And reopen Sea of Records and sell them there.
Kalman Rubinson
<oy�@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I hope the packaging of these releases doesn't contain misleading references
>to the San Francisco Symphony.
Who knows? The original Classic Records press announcement had the
name of the conductor as Krupps. I don't expect much.
Kal
Kimba W Lion
>http://www.classicrecords.com/item.cfm?item=SDBR%203065-200
What an "interesting" site. Who knew LPs had to be demagnetized?
Sheesh.
Bob Lombard
> Oscar Williamson <oscaredwar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> http://www.classicrecords.com/item.cfm?item=SDBR%203065-200
>
> What an "interesting" site. Who knew LPs had to be demagnetized?
>
> Sheesh.
>
bl
mark
wrote:
>
> How is Karajan an imitator of Toscanini?
>
It's well know that K had Toscanini's set of the 9 in the control room
when he recorded his EMI cycle with the Philharmonia. Whether that set
was on hand to serve as a guide for what to do or what NOT to do is up
for grabs.
William Sommerwerck
>> misleading references to the San Francisco Symphony.
> Who knows? The original Classic Records press announcement
> had the name of the conductor as Krupps.
"Sit back. Relax. Have a great cup of coffee, along with some of the world's
greatest music."
William Sommerwerck
Who knew they could be?
Dontait...@aol.com
> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net> wrote in news:ha237r$j66
> $...@news.eternal-september.org:
[some editing]
> > Walter's tempi were controversial even 50 years ago. I remember Martin
> > Bookspan's recommendation of the 7th, where he said that, though Walter
> > played it a bit slower than others, the performance was nevertheless -- I
> > don't remember the word, but the British would say "well-sprung".
>
> That's old Walter, though - younger Walter is another matter (faster,
> tauter, etc., especially live).
I've frequently mentioned that here, so I can't help saying that
it's nice to read the comment from someone else. Walter's stereo
recordings have the stamp of his powerful personality and in some ways
(phrasing especially) are consistent with recorded evidence of his
conducting going back to 1924. However, they were made after the
massive heart attack in early 1957 that weakened him physically and
caused him to limit his conducting mostly to recording sessions.
Which, furthermore, usually divided the works in question into bits
and pieces done over anywhere from two or three to eight or nine days.
The stereo recordings are almost always slower than surviving evidence
of Walter pre-1957 and the emotional content seems less intense: in
other words, they document his conducting in sessions lacking an
audience when he was past 80. Live, Walter could be even faster and
more intense than on records, indeed.
The Beethoven 7th is a good example. Walter made two commercial
recordings of it -- the stereo "Columbia Symphony" (i.e. pick-up
orchestra) one around 1959, and one with the New York Philharmonic in
(I think) 1951. For me, the stereo version is just as Mr. Sommerwerck
described it from Martin Bookspan's comments, and "well-sprung"
describes it well. Particularly the finale. But the mono Philharmonic
version is the "younger" (circa 75 year-old) Walter: faster
everywhere, with a finale that is so fast that the Philharmonic's
string players sound hard-pressed to articulate their notes clearly.
None of the several Toscanini performances I've heard, for example,
has so fast a finale.
Walter's mono NY Philharmonic recordings of Brahms's 2nd and 3rd
symphonies for Columbia (1953, I think) were adversely criticised by
some critics upon release as being too fast. Almost frantic in places,
some charged. (The end of the finale of 2 is almost certainly the most
hair-raisingly exciting I've ever heard.) The stereo versions have the
same phrasing and expressive warmth. But they're consistently slower
and more relaxed.
It's been a while since I've seen a message here from Richard
Schultz in Israel (I could have missed some, of course). He has
written about how he had arrived at a virtual percentage by which
Walter's stereo recordings were consistently slower than his earlier
ones of the same works. I don't remember it accurately enough to
attempt to quote it, though.
So -- this remains a fascinating topic, at least for me. And I'll
say again that this is not intended to charge that Walter's stereo
recordings are bad (although I do think that some aren't very good by
his earlier standards), but to say that the evidence seems to show
that they only represent his conducting in joined bits-and-pieces from
sessions when he was 82+, not how he conducted for many decades
before.
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
This reminds me of something I read many years ago in a record
review magazine. It might have been a feature article about the
recording sessions for Karajan's first Berlin PO Beethoven cycle
around 1963. The article stated that while rehearsing a spot in the
finale, Karajan had Toscanini's published recording played and told
the chorus that how the Shaw Chorale sang what was being worked on was
how he wanted it done.
I hasten to add that it's an old memory, I don't remember where I
read it (High Fidelity, perhaps?), and could be mistaken. Perhaps
someone here will know for sure. I'd like to have my memory confirmed
(or denied, if it's wrong).
In any case, Karajan made no secret of his intense admiration,
amounting to awe, for Toscanini. His comments are especially well-
documented in Osborne's big Karajan biography.
Don Tait
William Sommerwerck
> amounting to awe, for Toscanini. His comments are especially
But admiration does not necessarily result in emulation.
Simon Roberts
news:884504a4-6d72-4d07...@e12g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:
> On Oct 1, 2:01�pm, mark <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Oct 1, 4:18�am, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.
> net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > How is Karajan an imitator of Toscanini?
>>
>> It's well know that K had Toscanini's set of the 9 in the control
>> room when he recorded his EMI cycle with the Philharmonia. Whether
>> that set was on hand to serve as a guide for what to do or what NOT
>> to do is up for grabs.
>
> This reminds me of something I read many years ago in a record
> review magazine. It might have been a feature article about the
> recording sessions for Karajan's first Berlin PO Beethoven cycle
> around 1963. The article stated that while rehearsing a spot in the
> finale, Karajan had Toscanini's published recording played and told
> the chorus that how the Shaw Chorale sang what was being worked on was
> how he wanted it done.
>
> I hasten to add that it's an old memory, I don't remember where I
> read it (High Fidelity, perhaps?), and could be mistaken. Perhaps
> someone here will know for sure. I'd like to have my memory confirmed
> (or denied, if it's wrong).
I read the same thing, perhaps in the same place, but don't remember
exactly where (a book on Karajan perhaps?).
>
> In any case, Karajan made no secret of his intense admiration,
> amounting to awe, for Toscanini. His comments are especially well-
> documented in Osborne's big Karajan biography.
Right. But none of that means, as was originally stated, that Karajan
"imitated" him.
Simon
Simon Roberts
news:75adc0ca-e00e-4ad8...@g19g2000yqo.googlegroups.com:
[snip]
> Walter's mono NY Philharmonic recordings of Brahms's 2nd and 3rd
> symphonies for Columbia (1953, I think) were adversely criticised by
> some critics upon release as being too fast. Almost frantic in places,
> some charged. (The end of the finale of 2 is almost certainly the most
> hair-raisingly exciting I've ever heard.) The stereo versions have the
> same phrasing and expressive warmth. But they're consistently slower
> and more relaxed.
Right; and I doubt there's ever been a faster finale of Haydn's Oxford
symphony on records. And this general point is not just true of his
symphonic performances (indeed, why would it be?); Walter's Met (and other)
live performances of, say, Don Giovanni and Fidelio, are astonishingly fast
by any standard (often to quite thrilling effect).
Simon
Matthew�B.�Tepper
letters to be typed in
news:tterrace-3A4BEB...@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net:
I miss Dominick McBride at Sea of Records. If he were alive today, he would
be thrilled at the number of reissues of recordings by his favorite
conductor, Hermann Abendroth. He would also be 120 years old.
mark
I have a complete blind spot when it comes to Bruno Walter. I've never
gotten what it is about him that's supposedly so revelatory. His
interpretations bore me. And what's up with his DLFVE with Ferrier and
Patzak? The singing is just horrible from both vocalists, which should
rule the recording out of hand. But then there's the bland
interretation. Yet, this thing is held up as THE great recording. At
least his earlier go around had better singers.
I also have a blind spot with Reiner, and I've tried many times to
fathom what it is about his performances that people enjoy. Maybe it's
the sub-standard playing and messy ensemble on his RCA LS discs that
puts me off. Maybe it's his coldness as an interpreter - I can
honestly say that next to Reiner, Szell is a regular bleeding heart.
To each his own.
mark
. And what's up with his DLFVE with Ferrier and
> Patzak? The singing is just horrible from both vocalists,
Sorry. Should have been DLVDE...I can't type and play with the cat at
the same time...
Dontait...@aol.com
How right you are! Total agreement here. I remember playing the last
third of the first act of Don Giovanni from the Met (1942?) for
several people here years ago, including Dave Royko. As it gathered
its inexorable drama and power, unlike so many other performances and
recordings, Dave said "this is like an earthquake!" And the February
22, 1941 Fidelio from the Met conducted by Walter -- a great
performance. And as you wrote, very fast. But for me, it works. The
structure Walter creates for the entire opera works beautifully from
section to section. His control over the alternations between soloists
and chorus, plus orchestra, at his fast tempi in the final scene is
the mark of a complete master of operatic conducting. So are the wild
ovations that follow, and the fact that Milton Cross says everyone
suddenly left the stage and left Walter alone. With which the audience
screams.
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
[snip]
> I have a complete blind spot when it comes to Bruno Walter. I've never
> gotten what it is about him that's supposedly so revelatory. His
> interpretations bore me. And what's up with his DLFVE with Ferrier and
> Patzak? The singing is just horrible from both vocalists, which should
> rule the recording out of hand. But then there's the bland
> interretation. Yet, this thing is held up as THE great recording. At
> least his earlier go around had better singers.
>
> I also have a blind spot with Reiner, and I've tried many times to
> fathom what it is about his performances that people enjoy. Maybe it's
> the sub-standard playing and messy ensemble on his RCA LS discs that
> puts me off. Maybe it's his coldness as an interpreter - I can
> honestly say that next to Reiner, Szell is a regular bleeding heart.
>
> To each his own.
Exactly.
I don't agree with everything you've written, but that doesn't mean
you are wrong.
Reiner could indeed be cold, and often was. But what do you think
about his recordings of music by Bartok, Richard Strauss, Hovhaness,
and Stravinsky? His live performance recordings of Strauss tone-
poems? However, you are the first person I have ever heard complain
about "sub-standard playing and messy ensemble" on his Chicago
Symphony recordings. Could you provide examples?
If Bruno Walter's extant recorded performances bore you, then by all
means avoid them. Studying and thinking about them might cause you to
think otherwise, but that is up to you and might be not worth your
effort. If Kathleen Ferrier's singing bores you, then by all means
ignore it too.
You prefer Kerstin Thorborg?
Best wishes.
Don Tait
GP49
>
> Who knew they could be?
===================================================
Snake oil marketers who sell "LP demagnetizers" for thousands of
dollars, that's who!
david gideon
Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
> If you've seen Madacy's DVDs of out-of-copyright films, you might not be so
> quick to say that.
There is a review on amazon that includes a statement from Madacy's
remastering engineer. He sez Madacy now owns the 35mm originals and
that the transfer was done from the originals. Based on the sound
samples at amazon.com the sound is certainly better than the Bescol
transfers (though amazon's samples seem to have the channels reversed)
if not up to the Everest CDs. The Madacy engineer said he since did
another remastering because, absent any supporting documentation for
the 35mm materials, he believes the EQ was a little dull the first time
around. It's not clear if Madacy used the new transfer for subsequent
pressings or not.
dg
--
CD issues of long-unavailable classic performances from Scherchen, Stokowski,
Paray, Steinberg, and more, exclusively from: http://www.rediscovery.us
ReDiscovery radio internet stream: http://www.rediscovery.us/Listen.html
MiNe 109
<38741006-c0d5-470b...@v37g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
GP49 <gpo...@gmail.com> wrote:
The Zerostat now goes for about $100, note.
Stephen
mark
Give a close listen to the famous Reiner Bartok CfO on RCA and tell me
that the thing isn't riddled with poor orchestral execution. It drives
me nuts.
That didn't stop me from offering it through MHS when I ran the place,
though I found it interesting that our release of the Decca recording
with Dohnanyi (coupled with the Lutaslowski) far outsold the Reiner.
Probably because the Reiner was available everywhere while the
Dohnanyi was something of an exclusive for us, thanks to Greg Barbero
deleting it from the US catalog 13.5 minutes after its initial
release. Still, we made some $ off the Reiner, so, why not?
I find Reiner's R Strauss with CSO totally lacking in nuance and
subtlety. It's mono-dimensional to my ears. Many other conductors find
so much more in the music than does Reiner. It's Strauss for people
who like the loud parts of Strauss. My opinion, of course.
Yes, I prefer Thorberg to Ferrier by a whisker. Both have major
deficits in their singing. I wouldn't say Thorberg is by any means
the best singer in DLVDE, just that she's better than Ferrier. I've
never gotten the Ferrier worship. Take away the tragic death and what
you're left with is a grating voice of little range that suffers
intonation problems throughout the range that is there.
Matthew�B.�Tepper
following letters to be typed in
> Paul Penna <tter...@sonic.net> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in
> news:tterrace-3A4BEB...@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net:
>
>> In article <Xns9C974D10D7E...@216.168.3.30>,
>> "Matthew�B.�Tepper" <oy�@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I hope the packaging of these releases doesn't contain misleading
>>> references to the San Francisco Symphony.
>>
>> If so, for historical authenticity purposes it should be special
>> packaging just for the SF market, as were those post-Belock Everest
>> repressings. In a perverse-nostalgic kind of way, I kind of wish they
>> would. And reopen Sea of Records and sell them there.
>
> I miss Dominick McBride at Sea of Records. If he were alive today, he
> would be thrilled at the number of reissues of recordings by his
> favorite conductor, Hermann Abendroth. He would also be 120 years old.
Correction: Dominic F. McBride, 1906-1993. If it's the same one.
Matthew�B.�Tepper
typed in news:38741006-c0d5-470b-bc78-812131fdf782
@v37g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
Do you get a free green felt-tip pen with every purchase?
Steve Emerson
<82066aae-6cb2-4544...@f10g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>,
Oscar Williamson <oscaredwar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Classic Records is producing a new boxed set from original Everest
> master tapes of this cycle. I'm not familiar with these performances,
> but as it was recorded by Bert Whyte I think it's safe to say they are
> very well-recorded from the golden age of stereo. Recorded 1959 at
> Walthamstow Assembly Hall. Any comments about the performances and
> the sound are welcome. Thanks.
>
> Vinyl box lists for $250, HDAD disc $180.
Expensive to say the least, and I wouldn't be surprised if the notes
were sub-par, but the transfers as well as the sound of the source are
likely to be superlative, if previous CR work with RCA sources is
anything to go by. I don't know these performances.
SE.
William Sommerwerck
I remember when they were about $25. (I have two, left over from that time.)
The came with a little neon lamp to confirm they were working.
Yes, the Zerostat is pricey for what is basically a couple of chunks of
piezo material in a ray-gun casing. However, it actually does something
useful -- it temporarily removes the static charge on LPs.
Paul Penna
"Matthew�B.�Tepper" <oy�@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "Matthew�B.�Tepper" <oy�@earthlink.net> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in
> news:Xns9C978480CF9...@216.168.3.30:
>
> > Paul Penna <tter...@sonic.net> appears to have caused the following
> > letters to be typed in
> > news:tterrace-3A4BEB...@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net:
> >
> >> In article <Xns9C974D10D7E...@216.168.3.30>,
> >> "Matthew�B.�Tepper" <oy�@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I hope the packaging of these releases doesn't contain misleading
> >>> references to the San Francisco Symphony.
> >>
> >> If so, for historical authenticity purposes it should be special
> >> packaging just for the SF market, as were those post-Belock Everest
> >> repressings. In a perverse-nostalgic kind of way, I kind of wish they
> >> would. And reopen Sea of Records and sell them there.
> >
> > I miss Dominick McBride at Sea of Records. If he were alive today, he
> > would be thrilled at the number of reissues of recordings by his
> > favorite conductor, Hermann Abendroth. He would also be 120 years old.
>
> Correction: Dominic F. McBride, 1906-1993. If it's the same one.
I was in my first-time-record-buying, callow-but-shy youth stage when I
was frequenting Sea of Records, so I never struck up any
acquaintanceships, unfortunately. This was c.1962-1965, when I was
16-19. I was a basement shopper exclusively, snapping up those $2
black-starred bargains: Mercury & Everest repressings, as well as some
originals (white label promotional and 4-color back Mercurys,
silver-back Everests) and, of course, Vox. Such was my new-found mania
that I once culled through my coin collection and paid for a haul with
some "expendable" real-silver silver dollars. Got raised eyebrows from
the salesperson, as this was the point when such coins were starting to
disappear entirely from circulation in these parts. Proximity to Reno,
where until recently they had still been in use in gambling parlors made
them not all that unusual in the Bay Area.
td
wrote:
> How is Karajan an imitator of Toscanini?
Karajan had Toscanini's recordings of Beethoven at his side when
recording the cycle for DG in Berlin.
TD
td
Don, did you ever acquire the two enormous boxes from Japan of all
Walter's prewar performances with the VPO and other orchestras?
It would be interesting to compare his prior recordings of everything
that he also did in mono and again in stereo.
TD
M forever
Which one? He did 3 in Berlin.
That doesn't mean though that he "imitated" Toscanini. He was
certainly influenced by Toscanini, especially in his Beethoven style.
His earliest cycle made with the Philharmonia is definitely rather
close in style to Toscanini. In his later work, he aimed to fuse
influences of Toscanini and Furtwängler into a new style.
Not surprisingly, one can easily detect those influences, but his
style doesn't sound like either at all, that should be pretty obvious.
Well, OK, not *to you*, but to everyone who has ears and some
knowledge of music and style.
td
Actually, Don, I am always bothered by the eternally "tearful" quality
of Ferrier's voice. Forrester did not have this fault, in my
experience, although she has none of Ferrier's reputation, of course.
TD
td
> On Oct 2, 6:33 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 1, 7:18 am, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > How is Karajan an imitator of Toscanini?
>
> > Karajan had Toscanini's recordings of Beethoven at his side when
> > recording the cycle for DG in Berlin.
>
> > TD
>
> Which one? He did 3 in Berlin.
The only one that matters: early 1960s.
TD
M forever
> On Oct 1, 4:29 am, Mike <m3m3r...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 30, 7:46 pm, Oscar Williamson <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > Classic Records is producing a new boxed set from original Everest
> > > master tapes of this cycle. I'm not familiar with these performances,
> > > but as it was recorded by Bert Whyte I think it's safe to say they are
>
> > This was my first exposure to Beethoven (and to classical music) when
> > I was in college (early 60s). The set was only 3 years old at the
> > time and already available through "Longines Symphonette" and several
> > other cheapo record-a-month organizations. I was initially
> > captivated, particularly by the Pastorale. Shortly thereafter, a
> > savvy dorm-mate exposed me to Toscanini's Beethoven and some by
> > Klemperer and Munch. I went back to the Krips and quickly became
> > disenchanged by the lack of tension and drive so necessary for
> > Beethoven. All the performances were dull and unexciting--even
> > boring--though in excellent sound. Over the years, this set has
> > resurfaced on a number of inexpensive, horrible-sounding
> > resurrections. Maybe if I listened to it anew today, my take would be
> > different, but I doubt it. Krips' Beethoven Symphonies for me, will
> > always conjure up images of CHEAP. (Too bad, because his Beethoven
> > Piano Concertos with Rubinstein had everything this symphonies set
> > should have had but didn't). The Liebowitz recordings on Chessky, on
> > the other hand (or the Readers Digest edition) are another thing
> > entirely--superb performances, well-recorded..
>
> The problem is that Krips was a great maestro known for his
> interpretation of the Viennese classics - Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven.
>
> Yes, the performances can strike one as "flabby"(my word, please note,
> not yours), but so can Bruno Walters and many of the older
> performances from the 78 era. Toscanini spoiled a tradition of
> Beethoven interpretation, I think; he just followed the tempo
> indications in the score rather slavishly and poopoohed all other
> interpreters of the music in the process, thus breaking a tradition of
> performance which may have lasted for well over a century.
No he didn't. Other conductors chose fairly fast tempi as well. Not
all of them, of course, some preferred slower tempi and/or more tempo
adjustments.
But there is no single "tradition that may well have lasted for over a
century" as you imagine it in your rather simplistic view. Rather,
there is a whole spectrum of of stylistic approaches and interpretive
solutions and esthetics which can be traced fairly well.
I really think you don't realize how much silly statements like this
betray about how little you really understand about music and musical
performance.
> Now we are faced with all these Toscanini wannabes with none of his
> particular genius. Fast tempi, little music. And the HIPsters have
> only increased the problem as they also add scrawny sounds to the mix.
> ARGH!!!
Sounds like you haven't listened to any "HIP" performances since the
70s.
Honestly now, would you even be able to tell a "HIP" ensemble and a
small orchestra with modern instruments apart? We already know that
you can tell as distinct sounding orchestras as the Wiener and
Berliner Philhamoniker apart, so the answer to my question is most
likely "no".
> So, I have lots of room for the likes of Krips and Leibowitz and
> Klemperer and Walter as well as Toscanini and his imitators like
> Karajan, Solti et al.
>
> The Beethoven symphonies are NOT a Formula One circuit as far as I am
> aware.
>
> TD
M forever
Which happens to be the one furthest away stylistically from
Toscanini. He moved back a little into that general direction later,
especially in his 1977 cycle.
"The only one that matters" without any explanation why is exactly the
kind of big mouthed nonsense you like to trumpet and which apparently
fools some people with even less knowledge than you into believing you
actually know what you are talking about. I don't think there are many
people left here you can still fool though.
Tom Deacon
betray how little you really understand about my abilities to
understand music and musical performance.
You should make a resolution one day:
Try hard NOT to insult the person to whom you are addressing your
largely irrelevant and thick-headed responses. It would make your posts
more palatable. Not a lot, but a little. As it is, they are like a meal
of German dumplings.
Indigestible.
>
>> Now we are faced with all these Toscanini wannabes with none of his
>> particular genius. Fast tempi, little music. And the HIPsters have
>> only increased the problem as they also add scrawny sounds to the mix.
>> ARGH!!!
>
> Sounds like you haven't listened to any "HIP" performances since the
> 70s.
Sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. As usual.
>
> Honestly now, would you even be able to tell a "HIP" ensemble and a
> small orchestra with modern instruments apart? We already know that
> you can tell as distinct sounding orchestras as the Wiener and
> Berliner Philhamoniker apart, so the answer to my question is most
> likely "no".
Funny how you base your entire attitude upon a single error in
judgment. I recall you flinching at the idea of a "test" of your
vaunted hearing several years ago.
TD
Tom Deacon
> On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 09:34:32 -0500, "Matthew�B.�Tepper"
> <oy�@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> I hope the packaging of these releases doesn't contain misleading references
>> to the San Francisco Symphony.
>
> Who knows? The original Classic Records press announcement had the
> name of the conductor as Krupps. I don't expect much.
You'll get a free copy anyway.
Enjoy.
TD
Simon Roberts
news:268d139f-1f30-402f...@m7g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
> I have a complete blind spot when it comes to Bruno Walter. I've never
> gotten what it is about him that's supposedly so revelatory. His
> interpretations bore me. And what's up with his DLFVE with Ferrier and
> Patzak? The singing is just horrible from both vocalists, which should
> rule the recording out of hand.
It's amusing (or something) how Ferrier has this divergent effect on
people - those who "get" it are grabbed by the emotional effect of her
singing and, what's more, like the singing itself; those who don't
dismiss her, as I think one NY critic did after her NY debut, as a third
rate British church singer. I started off in the latter camp, doubtless
in part because I grew up in England at a time when Ferrier worship was
(perhaps it still is) rampant and such stuff irks me (it didn't help
that the BBC was forever broadcasting her singing folksongs, which I
generally detest). For reasons I couldn't possibly explain, I've
switched to the former camp; something clicked and her singing now
strikes me as uncommonly moving, including in Das Lied. No-one seems
just indifferent to her.
But then there's the bland
> interretation. Yet, this thing is held up as THE great recording. At
> least his earlier go around had better singers.
>
> I also have a blind spot with Reiner, and I've tried many times to
> fathom what it is about his performances that people enjoy. Maybe it's
> the sub-standard playing and messy ensemble on his RCA LS discs that
> puts me off. Maybe it's his coldness as an interpreter - I can
> honestly say that next to Reiner, Szell is a regular bleeding heart.
I'm closer to you with that one, though the occasional performance (e.g.
his live NYPO Brahms 2) stops me from going all the way.
Simon
Alan Cooper
news:2286247c-48cc-4e09...@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.
com:
> On Oct 1, 10:01�am, Kimba W Lion
> <norepliesbyem...@norepliesbyemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Gee, it makes the secondary market prices for the
>> Vanguard/Everest versio
> n
>> seem like a bargain: http://tinyurl.com/KripsVanguard
>
> Damn. I saw a copy of this at PREx last time I was there, for
> $15, and left it on the shelf.
The right decision, unless you intended to resell it for a profit. I share the
opinion of several previous posters that the most fitting single word to apply to
this cycle is "dull." And Krips himself could be much more effective in Beethoven,
as evidenced by the terrific live 7th in vol. 2 of the Concertgebouw anthology.
AC
pgaron
> Who knows? The original Classic Records press announcement had the
> name of the conductor as Krupps. I don't expect much.
Could this have been Krupps' last tape?
pgaron
mark
> mark <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote innews:268d139f-1f30-402f...@m7g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
>
> > I have a complete blind spot when it comes to Bruno Walter. I've never
> > gotten what it is about him that's supposedly so revelatory. His
> > interpretations bore me. And what's up with his DLFVE with Ferrier and
> > Patzak? The singing is just horrible from both vocalists, which should
> > rule the recording out of hand.
>
> It's amusing (or something) how Ferrier has this divergent effect on
> people - those who "get" it are grabbed by the emotional effect of her
> singing and, what's more, like the singing itself; those who don't
> dismiss her, as I think one NY critic did after her NY debut, as a third
> rate British church singer. I started off in the latter camp, doubtless
> in part because I grew up in England at a time when Ferrier worship was
> (perhaps it still is) rampant and such stuff irks me (it didn't help
> that the BBC was forever broadcasting her singing folksongs, which I
> generally detest). For reasons I couldn't possibly explain, I've
> switched to the former camp; something clicked and her singing now
> strikes me as uncommonly moving, including in Das Lied. No-one seems
> just indifferent to her.
I got a promo copy of the Decca Ferrier CD set sent to me when I
worked at BMG (IIRC, it was 5 CDs, released around 1993 or so). One of
the proof readers at BMG was huge Ferrier fan, so I gave him the set
as a gift. He asked me why on earth I would ever give away a set by
such a magnificent singer when I collected recordings by singers. My
response was, "her faults are even more grating on CD than they were
on LP." I then enumerated those faults to him.
A few weeks later, I ran into the guy in the hall. He informed me that
the CDs has caused him to re-evaluate Ferrier...and he had joined the
"what's all the fuss about camp." He said that the clarity of the CDs
had made him notice the faults I had mentioned. He asked me if I
wanted the set back. I told him to keep it - being a lifelong Ferrier
fan, his opinion could well change back after he had lived with the
set for awhile.
I wonder if he still owns it.
William Sommerwerck
>> had the name of the conductor as Krupps. I don't expect much.
> Could this have been Krupps' last tape?
Hey -- I already did the coffee-maker joke. Don't invade my territory!
jrsnfld
> On Oct 1, 2:54 pm, Simon Roberts <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Dontaitchic...@aol.com wrote innews:75adc0ca-e00e-4ad8...@g19g2000yqo.googlegroups.com:
>
> > [snip]
>
> > > Walter's mono NY Philharmonic recordings of Brahms's 2nd and 3rd
> > > symphonies for Columbia (1953, I think) were adversely criticised by
> > > some critics upon release as being too fast. Almost frantic in places,
> > > some charged. (The end of the finale of 2 is almost certainly the most
> > > hair-raisingly exciting I've ever heard.) The stereo versions have the
> > > same phrasing and expressive warmth. But they're consistently slower
> > > and more relaxed.
>
> > Right; and I doubt there's ever been a faster finale of Haydn's Oxford
> > symphony on records. And this general point is not just true of his
> > symphonic performances (indeed, why would it be?); Walter's Met (and other)
> > live performances of, say, Don Giovanni and Fidelio, are astonishingly fast
> > by any standard (often to quite thrilling effect).
>
> How right you are! Total agreement here. I remember playing the last
> third of the first act of Don Giovanni from the Met (1942?) for
> several people here years ago, including Dave Royko. As it gathered
> its inexorable drama and power, unlike so many other performances and
> recordings, Dave said "this is like an earthquake!"
That's a good description. Walter had elegance, lyricism, and volcanic
temperament. His early Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique from Paris is
another amazing document (but so is his 50s performance with NY), but
the opera recordings in particular show off his unique flair. Let's
not forget his passionate Wagner Walkuere Act 1!
The Columbia recordings are often quite wonderful, but they're not the
reason for Walter's place as one of the greatest conductors of the
century.
I think it is fair to say Klemperer's legacy is similarly distorted.
Demonic, fast, penetrating, cohesive at first; then barely
recognizable in his failing health at old age.
--Jeff
M forever
Ahahahahaha, how witty, ahahahahahahahaha, how very witty!
> >> Now we are faced with all these Toscanini wannabes with none of his
> >> particular genius. Fast tempi, little music. And the HIPsters have
> >> only increased the problem as they also add scrawny sounds to the mix.
> >> ARGH!!!
>
> > Sounds like you haven't listened to any "HIP" performances since the
> > 70s.
>
> Sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. As usual.
>
>
>
> > Honestly now, would you even be able to tell a "HIP" ensemble and a
> > small orchestra with modern instruments apart? We already know that
> > you can tell as distinct sounding orchestras as the Wiener and
> > Berliner Philhamoniker apart, so the answer to my question is most
> > likely "no".
>
> Funny how you base your entire attitude upon a single error in
> judgment.
Almost every post in which you make a statement about music and
musicians is an "error of judgment".
Because you really don't have much of a clue. Just enough anecdotal
knowledge to drop a few pseudo-witty lines here and there.
> I recall you flinching at the idea of a "test" of your
> vaunted hearing several years ago.
Are you lying consciously or are just senile? It was ***you*** who
"flinched" at the idea of a blind listening test/competition. Several
posters here offered to play the role of neutral judge and prepare
blind test files and send them to you and me, and then we would have
emailed them our "results".
And then you got very quiet suddenly...because you are not only a bag
of wind, you are also a fucking coward who hides his lack of
substantial knowledge behind his pseudo-witty rhetoric. As we know,
you were actually able to talk your way into a number of jobs in the
recording industry, but you got fired from most of them - or was it
all of them? - once they found out how little there is behind your
act.
Seriously now, are lying consciously or are you just senile?
M forever
> mark <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote innews:268d139f-1f30-402f...@m7g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
>
> > I have a complete blind spot when it comes to Bruno Walter. I've never
> > gotten what it is about him that's supposedly so revelatory. His
> > interpretations bore me. And what's up with his DLFVE withFerrierand
> > Patzak? The singing is just horrible from both vocalists, which should
> > rule the recording out of hand.
>
> people - those who "get" it are grabbed by the emotional effect of her
> singing and, what's more, like the singing itself; those who don't
> dismiss her, as I think one NY critic did after her NY debut, as a third
> rate British church singer. I started off in the latter camp, doubtless
> (perhaps it still is) rampant and such stuff irks me (it didn't help
> that the BBC was forever broadcasting her singing folksongs, which I
> generally detest).
What's wrong with folksongs?
Bob Lombard
> On Oct 2, 9:30 am, Simon Roberts <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> mark <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote innews:268d139f-1f30-402f...@m7g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> I have a complete blind spot when it comes to Bruno Walter. I've never
>>> gotten what it is about him that's supposedly so revelatory. His
>>> interpretations bore me. And what's up with his DLFVE withFerrierand
>>> Patzak? The singing is just horrible from both vocalists, which should
>>> rule the recording out of hand.
>> It's amusing (or something) howFerrierhas this divergent effect on
>> people - those who "get" it are grabbed by the emotional effect of her
>> singing and, what's more, like the singing itself; those who don't
>> dismiss her, as I think one NY critic did after her NY debut, as a third
>> rate British church singer. I started off in the latter camp, doubtless
>> in part because I grew up in England at a time whenFerrierworship was
>> (perhaps it still is) rampant and such stuff irks me (it didn't help
>> that the BBC was forever broadcasting her singing folksongs, which I
>> generally detest).
>
> What's wrong with folksongs?
>
Personally, I enjoy folksongs - but not when sung with vibrato.
bl
Matthew�B.�Tepper
be typed in
news:7b009e53-4d77-439b...@b3g2000pre.googlegroups.com:
> Walter had elegance, lyricism, and volcanic temperament. His early
> Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique from Paris is another amazing document (but
> so is his 50s performance with NY), but the opera recordings in
> particular show off his unique flair. Let's not forget his passionate
> Wagner Walkuere Act 1!
>
> The Columbia recordings are often quite wonderful, but they're not the
> reason for Walter's place as one of the greatest conductors of the
> century.
>
> I think it is fair to say Klemperer's legacy is similarly distorted.
> Demonic, fast, penetrating, cohesive at first; then barely recognizable
> in his failing health at old age.
And for that last, we have Walter Legge to thank.
Matthew�B.�Tepper
be typed in news:5efc9191-abcb-4bc4-b0b2-df47393e2158
@q14g2000vbi.googlegroups.com:
What a krappy reference! ;--)
Simon Roberts
news:939a077e-13d1-4acb...@k17g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:
> On Oct 2, 9:30�am, Simon Roberts <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> mark <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote
>> innews:268d139f-1f30-402f-8d15-16cba9
> 850...@m7g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > I have a complete blind spot when it comes to Bruno Walter. I've
>> > never gotten what it is about him that's supposedly so revelatory.
>> > His interpretations bore me. And what's up with his DLFVE
>> > withFerrierand Patzak? The singing is just horrible from both
>> > vocalists, which should rule the recording out of hand.
>>
>> It's amusing (or something) howFerrierhas this divergent effect on
>> people �- those who "get" it are grabbed by the emotional effect of
>> her singing and, what's more, like the singing itself; those who
>> don't dismiss her, as I think one NY critic did after her NY debut,
>> as a third rate British church singer. �I started off in the latter
>> camp, doubtles
> s
>> in part because �I grew up in England at a time whenFerrierworship
>> was (perhaps it still is) rampant and such stuff irks me (it didn't
>> help that the BBC was forever broadcasting her singing folksongs,
>> which I generally detest).
>
> What's wrong with folksongs?
I'm not sure I could explain why I dislike them any more than I could
explain why I dislike ketchup (though, come to think of it, they have a few
things in common...).
Simon
Simon Roberts
news:1csxm.67883$gp1....@en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com:
I will note, as an almost nonsequitur, that Ferrier had very little vibrato
(let alone, pace Hurwitz, a wobble).
Simon
Bob Lombard
There I disagree. She had considerable vibrato - for ears uncontaminated
by opera singers' vibrato.
bl
jrsnfld
> jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> appears to have caused the following letters to
> be typed innews:7b009e53-4d77-439b...@b3g2000pre.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Walter had elegance, lyricism, and volcanic temperament. His early
> > Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique from Paris is another amazing document (but
> > so is his 50s performance with NY), but the opera recordings in
> > particular show off his unique flair. Let's not forget his passionate
> > Wagner Walkuere Act 1!
>
> > The Columbia recordings are often quite wonderful, but they're not the
> > reason for Walter's place as one of the greatest conductors of the
> > century.
>
> > I think it is fair to say Klemperer's legacy is similarly distorted.
> > Demonic, fast, penetrating, cohesive at first; then barely recognizable
> > in his failing health at old age.
>
> And for that last, we have Walter Legge to thank.
Aw shucks...we don't really blame Legge for Klemperer's health
problems, too, do we? :-)
---Jeff
Dontait...@aol.com
[edit]
> Don, did you ever acquire the two enormous boxes from Japan of all
> Walter's prewar performances with the VPO and other orchestras?
>
> It would be interesting to compare his prior recordings of everything
> that he also did in mono and again in stereo.
No, Tom, I didn't get those boxes and in fact didn't know about
them. They'd be interesting. Do you have the sets? Do the transfers
sound good to you? But then, I do own all of Walter's prewar
recordings on 78s and know them from there. Except for some of the
super-rare and currently collector's-market expensive 1924/5 DG/
Polydor records, most of which I know from transfers.
You've raised a big and very interesting topic. I can't address it
right now, but I'll try to do so. Thanks!
Don Tait
Kimba W Lion
>But of course; static charge = magnetic charge, eh?
Actually, a *moving* electric charge (i.e., current) is necessary to create a
magnetic field. A static charge should have no magnetic effect.
--
Intelligent Life Is All Around Us
http://intelligentlife.info/
Kimba W Lion
>He sez Madacy now owns the 35mm originals and
>that the transfer was done from the originals.
Wait a minute... If Madacy owns the master tapes, and Classic Records says
they made their $250 LPs from the master tapes, does that mean that the new
audiophile edition is licensed from Madacy? A situation like that can only
happen in Bizarro World, right?
td
Thing is, if you heard Klemperer in his failing health at old age you
knew you were in the presence of a truly great musician.
Recordings never translate that, unfortunately. His tempi seem
glacial, whereas in concert they seem perfect.
TD
jrsnfld
> On Oct 1, 2:50 pm, Dontaitchic...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 1, 3:37 pm, mark <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote
>
> > [snip]
>
> > > gotten what it is about him that's supposedly so revelatory. His
> > > interpretations bore me. And what's up with his DLFVE with Ferrier and
> > > Patzak? The singing is just horrible from both vocalists, which should
> > > interretation. Yet, this thing is held up as THE great recording. At
> > > least his earlier go around had better singers.
> Yes, I prefer Thorberg to Ferrier by a whisker. Both have major
> deficits in their singing. I wouldn't say Thorberg is by any means
> the best singer in DLVDE, just that she's better than Ferrier. I've
> never gotten the Ferrier worship. Take away the tragic death and what
> you're left with is a grating voice of little range that suffers
> intonation problems throughout the range that is there.
Walter is now represented by how many surviving DLvDE's now? I agree
that the Decca recording was always overrated, especially given that
other recordings from approximately the same time period are so much
more satisfying. I'm not a Ferrier fan particularly, but I see why
others might worship her.
The people who were touting this recording as the greatest were
probably just ignorant of the others, or, as you imply, showing
excessive nostalgia for Ferrier and blind reverence for Walter and the
orchestra. Fortunately such hasty and firm recommendations seem rare
now.
--Jeff
William Sommerwerck
> seem glacial, whereas in concert they seem perfect.
My experience has been that a performance heard in person seems to move more
quickly than a recording. This is consistent with my observation that the
greater the sensory stimulus, the faster time seems to pass.
td
Not even funny. Just accurate, alas.
> > >> Now we are faced with all these Toscanini wannabes with none of his
> > >> particular genius. Fast tempi, little music. And the HIPsters have
> > >> only increased the problem as they also add scrawny sounds to the mix.
> > >> ARGH!!!
>
> > > Sounds like you haven't listened to any "HIP" performances since the
> > > 70s.
>
> > Sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. As usual.
>
> > > Honestly now
You wouldn't recognize honesty if it struck you in the face.
, would you even be able to tell a "HIP" ensemble and a
> > > small orchestra with modern instruments apart? We already know that
> > > you can tell as distinct sounding orchestras as the Wiener and
> > > Berliner Philhamoniker apart, so the answer to my question is most
> > > likely "no".
>
> > Funny how you base your entire attitude upon a single error in
> > judgment.
>
> Almost every post in which you make a statement about music and
> musicians is an "error of judgment".
> Because you really don't have much of a clue. Just enough anecdotal
> knowledge to drop a few pseudo-witty lines here and there.
Nice to have such sweeping knowledge and equivalent judgment.
You don't know me. I don't know you.
But what I see is a pompous German oaf with attitude.
> > I recall you flinching at the idea of a "test" of your
> > vaunted hearing several years ago.
>
> Are you lying consciously or are just senile? It was ***you*** who
> "flinched" at the idea of a blind listening test/competition. Several
> posters here offered to play the role of neutral judge and prepare
> blind test files and send them to you and me, and then we would have
> emailed them our "results".
There ARE no neutral judges in this forum.
Silly boy.
> Seriously now, are lying consciously or are you just senile?
Senile, no. Lying, not a chance.
Fortunately I am not the only member of this forum whom you have
heaped with your own particular brand of dung. It may, indeed, be
something of an honour, come to think of it.
To be praised by you would be the kiss of death.
TD
td
td
Yes, I do. Bought them at Tower Records in New York. They were
enclosed in a glass case and very pricey, I seem to recall.
They are entitled:
The Art of Bruno Walter I: Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra Toshiba EMI
TOCE 7761-74 (published in May, 1992) and
The Art of Bruno Walter II: RPO, Mozart Festival Orchestra, Orchestra
of the Staatskapelle Berlin, BPO, British Symphony Orchestra, Symphony
Orchestra, BBC Symphony Orchestra, Orchestre de la societe des
concerts du conservatoire, London Symphony Orchestra. (published
December, 1992)
A total of 28 CDs.
Transfers? Well, I am not particularly fussy about such things, Don,
as you may know by now. Providing the transfers are fairly clean, at
correct pitch and the side joins are OK, I can tolerate almost
anything in 78 RPM transfers. The Japanese have scooped up thousands
of original 78s over the years and are very, very, very fussy about
which ones they favour. I trust that they have acquired the best
copies available anywhere, barring original masters, of course.
These sets would seem to be ALL of Walter's 78s, Don. What are the DG/
Polydor items, which would save me scouring the recording information
in Japanese. LOL
TD
Matthew Silverstein
> I'm not sure I could explain why I dislike them any more than I could
> explain why I dislike ketchup (though, come to think of it, they have a
> few things in common...).
I can explain both: bad taste!
Matty
Bob Lombard
Hah. You cause me to envision noses pointed upward at 45 degree angles,
nostrils quivering.
bl
td
I read that differently.
I think he was describing the bad taste produced in his mouth by
ketchup and in his ears by Kathleen Ferrier.
TD
Bob Lombard
Both reactions directly relate to that nostril quivering. It's the need
to be 'not common'.
bl
jrsnfld
wrote:
Not my experience, always. I've occasionally been bored and listless
in concerts and then gotten home and heard the corresponding radio
broadcast with better appreciation for the flow of the performance. It
depends on the attention you are physically and mentally able to focus
on the music. Maybe it just depends on a comfortable chair.
As for Klemperer projecting authority in concert--that's just a
function of the listener's preconceptions, and of course the
advantages of live performance. All good musicians are better live.
It's a tautology, and for good reason!
Anyway, the live concerts I've heard of Klemperer late in his life are
indeed better than the studio equivalents in important respects.
However, Klemperer is still tolerable in the studio because of the
sound and the mixing, which lend a distinctive combination of weight
and clarity to his work. I actually like a lot of his stereo EMI
recordings; I just wouldn't claim they represent Klemperer at his
best.
Same with Walter. The Columbia period offered many excellent cases of
great music making; his earlier period was, however, often
transcendent.
--Jeff
O
<e0bede55-6f09-4c31...@l34g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, td
<tomde...@mac.com> wrote:
Why would he put ketchup in his ears?
I think someone's been listening to the great soprano Teresa Heinz
Kerry.
-Owen
Matthew�B.�Tepper
be typed in
news:23dd6b2b-35ae-4dfe...@12g2000pri.googlegroups.com:
> On Oct 2, 12:45�pm, "Matthew�B.�Tepper" <oy�@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> appears to have caused the following letters
>> to be typed innews:7b009e53-4d77-439b-be49-d2cd49788022@b3g2000pre.
>> googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > I think it is fair to say Klemperer's legacy is similarly distorted.
>> > Demonic, fast, penetrating, cohesive at first; then barely
>> > recognizable in his failing health at old age.
>>
>> And for that last, we have Walter Legge to thank.
>
> Aw shucks...we don't really blame Legge for Klemperer's health
> problems, too, do we? :-)
Who do you think it was who put that lighter fluid on his bedstand?
Actually, I "blame" Legge for not challenging Klemperer vhen he said he
vould get used to it.
M forever
What I see is a completely ignorant Canadian with attitude. Except
that for me it doesn't matter where you are actually from. It may
partially explain your ignorance, but mostly it is just your personal
ignorance and your tin ears. Idiots like you occur in all populations.
> > > I recall you flinching at the idea of a "test" of your
> > > vaunted hearing several years ago.
>
> > Are you lying consciously or are just senile? It was ***you*** who
> > "flinched" at the idea of a blind listening test/competition. Several
> > posters here offered to play the role of neutral judge and prepare
> > blind test files and send them to you and me, and then we would have
> > emailed them our "results".
>
> There ARE no neutral judges in this forum.
>
> Silly boy.
>
> > Seriously now, are lying consciously or are you just senile?
>
> Senile, no. Lying, not a chance.
Make up your mind. I think you are lying. You know that it was you,
not me, who "flinched" away from the proposed blind listening test.
You also never took part in any of the blind listening tests offered
by me or other people. Those would have been neutral because they
weren't even contests between listeners.
But you still got your blind listening tests in the form of the Hatto
recordings.
And you failed brutally and miserably.
> Fortunately I am not the only member of this forum whom you have
> heaped with your own particular brand of dung. It may, indeed, be
> something of an honour, come to think of it.
You don't need me to get heaped with dung.
You make a total fool out of yourself all without my help.
> To be praised by you would be the kiss of death.
If you had any sort of reputation as someone with any sort of
knowledge and authority, whatever I say shouldn't matter.
Besides, there isn't any reputation of yours left to destroy by "the
kiss of death". You have enthusiastically done that yourself. And
confirmed your ignorance with the above nonsense.
wagnerfan
news:5cc5f7d5-898b-4848...@a7g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
Oh brother - comparing M Forever's posts on this subject against Deacon is
like comparing a very good champagne against a flat diet Dr. Pepper. Once
again Deacon shows up, makes an idiot out of himself, insults people and
then skulks away. Always the same boring little game. Wagner fan
M forever
> Orchestra of the Staatskapelle Berlin
"Orchestra of the State Orchestra of Berlin"?
Kapelle already means orchestra. Not surprised you don't know that
though.
M forever
Maybe I was wrong. Maybe he wasn't lying. Maybe he is really just
senile. Maybe he actually forgets himself during those periods of
absence how much he has made a fool out of himself. Or maybe he just
hopes that people have forgotten.
Problem with that is that his most blatant errors of judgment (Hatto,
the inability to distinguish world class orchestras, and many other td
classics) were always proclaimed with so much pompous inflated
rhetoric, people are bound to remember...
jrsnfld
> jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> appears to have caused the following letters to
>
> > On Oct 2, 12:45 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> appears to have caused the following letters
> >> to be typed innews:7b009e53-4d77-439b-be49-d2cd49788022@b3g2000pre.
> >> googlegroups.com:
>
> >> > I think it is fair to say Klemperer's legacy is similarly distorted.
> >> > Demonic, fast, penetrating, cohesive at first; then barely
> >> > recognizable in his failing health at old age.
>
> >> And for that last, we have Walter Legge to thank.
>
> > Aw shucks...we don't really blame Legge for Klemperer's health
> > problems, too, do we? :-)
>
> Who do you think it was who put that lighter fluid on his bedstand?
>
> Actually, I "blame" Legge for not challenging Klemperer vhen he said he
> vould get used to it.
Fair enough.
--Jeff
td
The last Beethoven 7, which is indeed, very slow is a case in point. I
heard him do this shortly after the recording, including the little
Rameau set of variations which were also on the LP. I was determined
not to enjoy the performance when the music began. Too slow.
Ponderous.
Then something happened. I started to focus on the balance, the
rhythm, and other things in the music. Suddenly, his tempo seemed
perfect. Not slow at all. Indeed, just right. This is mirrored in the
recording, which I have returned to often as a reminder of just how
preconceptions can lead one to faulty conclusions.
Klemperer at his best? Anytime you happened to be lucky enough to hear
him conduct.
TD
td
> In article
> <e0bede55-6f09-4c31-a6d4-e5f6ab09d...@l34g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, td
The odd thing is that you probably think you're funny.
TD
td
> On Oct 2, 4:25 pm, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
> > But what I see is a pompous German oaf with attitude.
>
> What I see is a completely ignorant Canadian with attitude.
I guess we differ then, depending upon our unique vantage points.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
TD
td
I only repeat what the Japanese write.
TD
td
Oh, go and get laid.
It'll help your constipation.
TD
Gerard
Not surprised that you take the effort to make a point of this.
That's your life and what you like to do the most, isn't it?
M forever
Oh, wow, what a brilliant and original comeback! Seriously, is that
the best you can come up with?
You don't need to answer that. That was a rhetorical question. We
already know it is.
Like I said, with some people your "spicy" rhetoric may have bullied
them into not openly questioning your BS, and it may have helped you
to masquerade as someone with a few things to say. But you have long
been found out.
BTW, constipation does not have anything to do with sex (or lack of
sex). I can see that as an old (and maybe senile after all?) and
impotent guy with impotent rage, you can't keep all your medical
issues apart anymore.
Sex can only help with constipation if you take it deep in the ass -
and we really didn't need to know that that is what your idea of sex
is. Apparently, you are the bitch, but you like to talk like the
butch. But we didn't need to know that either. Too much information,
thank you.
Christopher Howell
>
> > I think it is fair to say Klemperer's legacy is similarly distorted.
> > Demonic, fast, penetrating, cohesive at first; then barely recognizable
> > in his failing health at old age.
>
> And for that last, we have Walter Legge to thank.
>
Not exactly. Central to Legge's decision to disband the Philharmonia
and leave the recording scene was his feeling that Klemperer, with his
increasingly impaired hearing, was no longer able to deliver the
goods.
As we know, the orchestra decided to cash in on the great name and
form the New Philharmonia with Klemperer as President and EMI went on
recording him with Grubb as producer, not a man with decisional powers
like Legge, just an employee booked to produce recordings.
Somewhere on the Gramophone site you'll find a series of interviews
with Legge by John Amis in which he goes into all this, speaking very
damningly of the late Klemperer recordings. In particular, he thought
the Figaro and Così fan Tutte shouldn't have been made.
Chris Howell
O
<be6f0b31-9b42-478b...@z34g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>, td
<tomde...@mac.com> wrote:
> >
> > I think someone's been listening to the great soprano Teresa Heinz
> > Kerry.
>
> The odd thing is that you probably think you're funny.
>
You wouldn't know -- you have no sensahumor.
-Owen
Kimba W Lion
>There is a review on amazon that includes a statement from Madacy's
>remastering engineer. He sez Madacy now owns the 35mm originals and
>that the transfer was done from the originals. Based on the sound
>samples at amazon.com the sound is certainly better than the Bescol
>transfers (though amazon's samples seem to have the channels reversed)
>if not up to the Everest CDs. The Madacy engineer said he since did
>another remastering because, absent any supporting documentation for
>the 35mm materials, he believes the EQ was a little dull the first time
>around. It's not clear if Madacy used the new transfer for subsequent
>pressings or not.
OK, curiosity got the better of me so I blew $10 on the Madacy set. It
certainly is far more listenable than the Bescol, but the sound is dull enough
to make me doubt that Madacy was working from the master tapes. There's far
more clarity and presence on the Vanguard/Everest set.
--
Intelligent Life Is All Around Us
http://intelligentlife.info/
LarryLap
wrote:
> > The Bescol set is one of the worst-sounding mutilations of
> > vintage recordings ever released in CD's 25 year history.
> > There's an inexpensive Madacy version that's surely better:
> >http://tinyurl.com/KripsMadacy
>
> If you've seen Madacy's DVDs of out-of-copyright films, you might not be so
> quick to say that.
I found the Madacy set for $10, and figured it had to be worth at
least that, as I have been looking for a good remastering of the set
since the early 60's, when I tossed out the original Everest box in
disgust with the wretched pressings. No doubt the DVD-A version has
superior resolution, but the Madacy set is actually very well
remastered. The engineer contributed an interesting note on his
remastering to the review thread on amazon.com, where the set is
available for $14. I have enjoyed listening to it very much, as an
expression of a Viennese style of performance that has essentially
disappeared from renditions of pieces in the standard repertoire. It
is an element in Szell's musical character, but is overshadowed in all
but a few of his late performances by what one might call the
Toscanini element, which brings with it brisk tempi and a degree of
unrelenting intensity. If you want to hear an example of the Viennese
style without the Italian admixture, I encourage you to give Krips a
listen.